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RodRussell
11th June 2010, 09:46 PM
Dr. Rusbridge and others have issued a report, "Relationship of brain parenchyma within the caudal cranial fossa and ventricle size to syringomyelia in cavalier King Charles spaniels", soon to be published in the Journal of Small Animal Practice of the British Small Animal Veterinary Association.

They studied MRIs of 59 Cavaliers, 71% having SM, and confirmed previous findings that variations in the dimensions of the CKCS rear skull cavity are NOT associated with SM. Instead, they found that a Cavalier with a higher volume of parenchyma (brain matter) within the cranial fossa is more likely to have SM, and the greater the volume of parenchyma, the larger the syrinx. And, they found a direct relationship between between the dimensions of the brain ventricles and the size of the syrinx.

More information about the report may be found at
http://www.cavalierhealth.org/syringomyelia.htm#59_Cavalier_King_Charles_spaniel s or http://tinyurl.com/2010UKstudy for short.

Bet
12th June 2010, 09:34 AM
Dr. Rusbridge and others have issued a report, "Relationship of brain parenchyma within the caudal cranial fossa and ventricle size to syringomyelia in cavalier King Charles spaniels", soon to be published in the Journal of Small Animal Practice of the British Small Animal Veterinary Association.

They studied MRIs of 59 Cavaliers, 71% having SM, and confirmed previous findings that variations in the dimensions of the CKCS rear skull cavity are NOT associated with SM. Instead, they found that a Cavalier with a higher volume of parenchyma (brain matter) within the cranial fossa is more likely to have SM, and the greater the volume of parenchyma, the larger the syrinx. And, they found a direct relationship between between the dimensions of the brain ventricles and the size of the syrinx.

More information about the report may be found at
http://www.cavalierhealth.org/syringomyelia.htm#59_Cavalier_King_Charles_spaniel s or http://tinyurl.com/2010UKstudy for short.


MORE RESEARCH ON BRAIN VOLUMN AND SYRINXES

Could I try your Patience once again Folks with this Thought,

If this new UK Study ,mention is made about the Mismatch between Marked Brain Volumn and Skull Volumn.

So is there more Brain Volumn in Cavaliers with Smaller Skulls ?

Bet

RodRussell
12th June 2010, 07:07 PM
If this new UK Study ,mention is made about the Mismatch between Marked Brain Volumn and Skull Volumn.

So is there more Brain Volumn in Cavaliers with Smaller Skulls ?

That is not how I read the article, regarding smaller skulls. They emphasize that Cavaliers have a similar caudal cranial fossa volume to other small breed dogs, but Cavaliers have proportionately the same volume of hindbrain within the caudal cranial fossa as do Labrador retrievers.

From my limited experience with Cavaliers for the past 40+ years, overall I think today's Cavalier skull is proportionately larger than it was back in the 1960s.

RodRussell
12th June 2010, 07:15 PM
And there is still more research in the works...

At the 2010 BSAVA conference, Dr. Rusbridge, Colin Driver, and others presented an abstract finding that severe SM in Cavaliers under 2 years old is associated with a greater mis-match between hindbrain and caudal fossa volume than that found in 5+ year olds CKCSs with CM but no SM.

They also measured the dimensions of the brain's ventricle cavities of SM-affected Cavaliers, and they found that the ventricle volumes had a direct correlation with the width of the syrinx.

Details on both studies are at
http://www.cavalierhealth.org/syringomyelia.htm#UK_researchers_report_severe_SM

Bet
13th June 2010, 09:42 AM
That is not how I read the article, regarding smaller skulls. They emphasize that Cavaliers have a similar caudal cranial fossa volume to other small breed dogs, but Cavaliers have proportionately the same volume of hindbrain within the caudal cranial fossa as do Labrador retrievers.

From my limited experience with Cavaliers for the past 40+ years, overall I think today's Cavalier skull is proportionately larger than it was back in the 1960s.


MORE RESEARCH ON BRAIN VOLUMN AND SYRINXES

I am not going down this Avenue of arguing about the Cavaliers' Heads being Smaller than they were 30-40 years Ago.

I know what I am seeing.

Lets leave it to the Researchers , they will know what results they are getting.

Bet

RodRussell
13th June 2010, 06:17 PM
I am not going down this Avenue of arguing about the Cavaliers' Heads being Smaller than they were 30-40 years Ago. I know what I am seeing. Lets leave it to the Researchers , they will know what results they are getting.

To repeat, what the researchers are saying -- in four reports within this past 12 months -- is that Cavaliers have a similar caudal cranial fossa (meaning, "hind-skull") volume as do other small breed dogs, but Cavaliers have proportionately the same volume of hindbrain within the hind-skull as do Labrador retrievers. I interpret this to mean that Cavalier skulls are not presently proportionately smaller than skulls of other small breeds.

From my layman's analysis of these reports, one of the theories drawn from this evidence is that, at some point, the coordination between the embryonic growth of the skull and the embryonic growth of the hindbrain somehow ceases, and the hind-skull growth plates close before the hindbrain stops growing. This is where the size nine foot in the size six shoe analogy comes into play.

So, if Bet's theory is correct, it would mean that, all along, the volume within the Cavalier's caudal cranial fossa was -- and is supposed to be -- disproportionately larger than the caudal cranial fossa volumes of other small breeds. In other words, all along, the Cavalier has had a brain the size of a Labrador's, but only recently has the Cavalier's skull volume failed to match the size of its brain.

Bet
14th June 2010, 09:59 AM
To repeat, what the researchers are saying -- in four reports within this past 12 months -- is that Cavaliers have a similar caudal cranial fossa (meaning, "hind-skull") volume as do other small breed dogs, but Cavaliers have proportionately the same volume of hindbrain within the hind-skull as do Labrador retrievers. I interpret this to mean that Cavalier skulls are not presently proportionately smaller than skulls of other small breeds.

From my layman's analysis of these reports, one of the theories drawn from this evidence is that, at some point, the coordination between the embryonic growth of the skull and the embryonic growth of the hindbrain somehow ceases, and the hind-skull growth plates close before the hindbrain stops growing. This is where the size nine foot in the size six shoe analogy comes into play.

So, if Bet's theory is correct, it would mean that, all along, the volume within the Cavalier's caudal cranial fossa was -- and is supposed to be -- disproportionately larger than the caudal cranial fossa volumes of other small breeds. In other words, all along, the Cavalier has had a brain the size of a Labrador's, but only recently has the Cavalier's skull volume failed to match the size of its brain.


MORE RESEARCH ON BRAIN VOLUMN AND SYRINXES

All I am saying is that the Cavalier Heads are Smaller than they were 30 odd years ago,.

Here are some examples of Cavaliers of 60's- 70's , whose Heads were Larger than many of to-days Cavaliers.

Pargeter

Maxholt

Crisdig

Jia

Lanola

Kindrum

Astraddle

Heatherside

Pantisa

Ottermouth

Last but not Least.

Ch. DAYWELL ROGER.born 7-10-1945.

Lady Forwood ,Eyeworth,wrote in her Book with Diagrams, 1967, that a Cavalier with a Deep Stop and Short Muzzle ,had an Incorrect Head .

Lady Forwood was a Past President of the UK CKCS CLUB.

Many of To-day's Cavaliers have Longer Backs and Shorter Legs than years ago, also it's difficult to tell the difference the between a Cavalier Dog and a Cavalier Bitch now-a-days.

Many of the owners of To-day's Cavaliers will only have seen what they look like now, and not years ago.

I am not saying the Cavaliers' Smaller Heads are causing their SM Problem,I do not know, only that many of the Cavaliers' Heads are Smaller to-day, than the Cavaliers ' Heads I have mentioned in my above List.

Bet

Kate H
14th June 2010, 10:13 AM
Which came first, the chicken or the egg? I noticed in a mention of one of the latest research reports that the results of CM can push forward the sinuses; and if CM can cause enlarged ventricles, this also can presumably push the brain forward. So CM could be causing the deeper stop in modern Cavaliers, as the skull shape adjusts to changes to what has to be accommodated within the skull. Or breeding for a deeper stop could have accelerated the incidence of CM. Which is cause and which is result? Frankly, nobody knows! It certainly doesn't seem to be as simple as just blaming the breeders.

Kate, Oliver and Aled

Bet
14th June 2010, 10:16 AM
MORE RESEARCH ON BRAIN VOLUMN AND SYRINXES

All I am saying is that the Cavalier Heads are Smaller than they were 30 odd years ago,.

Here are some examples of Cavaliers of 60's- 70's , whose Heads were Larger than many of to-days Cavaliers.

Pargeter

Maxholt

Crisdig

Jia

Lanola

Kindrum

Astraddle

Heatherside

Pantisa

Ottermouth

Last but not Least.

Ch. DAYWELL ROGER.born 7-10-1945.

Lady Forwood ,Eyeworth,wrote in her Book with Diagrams, 1967, that a Cavalier with a Deep Stop and Short Muzzle ,had an Incorrect Head .

Lady Forwood was a Past President of the UK CKCS CLUB.

Many of To-day's Cavaliers have Longer Backs and Shorter Legs than years ago, also it's difficult to tell the difference the between a Cavalier Dog and a Cavalier Bitch now-a-days.

Many of the owners of To-day's Cavaliers will only have seen what they look like now, and not years ago.

I am not saying the Cavaliers' Smaller Heads are causing their SM Problem,I do not know, only that many of the Cavaliers' Heads are Smaller to-day, than the Cavaliers ' Heads I have mentioned in my above List.

Bet


MORE RESEARCH ON BRAIN VOLUMN AND SYRINXES.


Talk about a co-incidence.

On the CC List, a Post has just appeared mentioning about a New Cavalier Book that has to be launched at the Forth-coming Cavalier Event to be held at Blenheim Palace in August
.
This Book will contain lots of Cavalier Photos from the Early Days of the Cavalier Breed.

Maybe Cavalier Folk will be able to see the difference between Cavaliers' Heads then and now.

Bet

RodRussell
15th June 2010, 05:32 AM
All I am saying is that the Cavalier Heads are Smaller than they were 30 odd years ago,. Here are some examples of Cavaliers of 60's- 70's , whose Heads were Larger than many of to-days Cavaliers.

Pargeter, Maxholt, Crisdig, Jia, Lanola, Kindrum, Astraddle, Heatherside, Pantisa, Ottermouth, Last but not Least Ch. DAYWELL ROGER.born 7-10-1945.

Many of To-day's Cavaliers have Longer Backs and Shorter Legs than years ago, also it's difficult to tell the difference the between a Cavalier Dog and a Cavalier Bitch now-a-days.

Many of the owners of To-day's Cavaliers will only have seen what they look like now, and not years ago.

I am not saying the Cavaliers' Smaller Heads are causing their SM Problem,I do not know, only that many of the Cavaliers' Heads are Smaller to-day, than the Cavaliers ' Heads I have mentioned in my above List. ...

My family has had Cavaliers since the 1960s, and I don't recall that the heads of our more recent CKCSs are any smaller than the earlier ones. Our recent males have had particularly huge heads, and they all have a lot of Maxholt in their background.

I almost always can identify whether a Cavalier in a photo is a male or female, and I don't think that I have ever missed when I am looking at them in person.

Bet
15th June 2010, 09:43 AM
My family has had Cavaliers since the 1960s, and I don't recall that the heads of our more recent CKCSs are any smaller than the earlier ones. Our recent males have had particularly huge heads, and they all have a lot of Maxholt in their background.

I almost always can identify whether a Cavalier in a photo is a male or female, and I don't think that I have ever missed when I am looking at them in person.


MORE RESEARCH ON BRAIN VOLUMN AND SYRINXES

We are never going to agree on this Subject,all I can say is, I have the Cavalier Books written by

ALICIA PENNINGTON.....Royal Toy Spaniels

JOHN EVANS....Cavalier King Charles Spaniels

SHEILA SMITH ....Cavalier King Charles Spaniels To-Day

EILLIDH M.STENNING.....Cavalier King Charles Spaniels

BRUCE FIELD ....The Cavalier King Charles Spaniel

EVELYN BOOTH .....All About the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel.

All those Authors ,with -out exception have Diagrams in their Books, showing that a Cavalier's Head is Incorrect with a Deep Stop,in-fact John Evans says ,when there is too Deep a Stop ,there is too Strong a Fore-Head.

Alicica Pennington ,said in her Book, that the Cavalier with a Perfect Head was

CH, CRISDIG LEADING SEAMAN

The UK CKCS CLUB Breed Standard says that a Cavalier must have a Shallow Stop.

Maybe we should just leave it to the SM Researchers to Research the Volumn of Brains and Cavaliers' Heads etc.


Finally could I mention with this Post ,about the Post I have just read, I do so hope I am one of those included ,who will be remembered in the Era of the History of our Beloved Cavalier Breed ,for making the Lot of Cavaliers Not a Happy One Thanks to a Small Handful of Individuals, I would think this Post means , just because we have had the
Gumption to come Forward and try to Help the Suffering of Cavaliers.

If I am included ,this Statement has sure Made My Day, !!!!!

Bet.

Bet
15th June 2010, 11:35 AM
MORE RESEARCH ON BRAIN VOLUMN AND SYRINXES

We are never going to agree on this Subject,all I can say is, I have the Cavalier Books written by

ALICIA PENNINGTON.....Royal Toy Spaniels

JOHN EVANS....Cavalier King Charles Spaniels

SHEILA SMITH ....Cavalier King Charles Spaniels To-Day

EILLIDH M.STENNING.....Cavalier King Charles Spaniels

BRUCE FIELD ....The Cavalier King Charles Spaniel

EVELYN BOOTH .....All About the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel.

All those Authors ,with -out exception have Diagrams in their Books, showing that a Cavalier's Head is Incorrect with a Deep Stop,in-fact John Evans says ,when there is too Deep a Stop ,there is too Strong a Fore-Head.

Alicica Pennington ,said in her Book, that the Cavalier with a Perfect Head was

CH, CRISDIG LEADING SEAMAN

The UK CKCS CLUB Breed Standard says that a Cavalier must have a Shallow Stop.

Maybe we should just leave it to the SM Researchers to Research the Volumn of Brains and Cavaliers' Heads etc.


Finally could I mention with this Post ,about the Post I have just read, I do so hope I am one of those included ,who will be remembered in the Era of the History of our Beloved Cavalier Breed ,for making the Lot of Cavaliers Not a Happy One Thanks to a Small Handful of Individuals, I would think this Post means , just because we have had the
Gumption to come Forward and try to Help the Suffering of Cavaliers.

If I am included ,this Statement has sure Made My Day, !!!!!

Bet.


I have just read another Another Bitter ,Vindictive Post in connection to the one I have mentioned.

I am saying no-more on this Subject, only to conclude by mentioning that who has got the Cavalier Breed into the Mess it's in to-day with the SM and MVD Health Problems but some Cavalier Breeders who were warned about those Two Problems years ago, so they have not made a very good job of trying to help the Suffering of our Cavaliers with their Breeding Programs.!!

We Cavalier Folk who have not Buried our Heads about the Health Troubles in our Breed ,and trying to do some-thing about them, are being accused of Deliberately Hindering the Progress for Cavaliers.

I will just ignore that Malevolent Comment.

Just remember Folks, we know what is happening to help our Cavaliers because of RUPERT'S FUND and the advances being made by the Researchers into the Cavalier Health Problems, so we will just let the Rants of a Certain Few, Flow like Water of A Duck's Back, as the saying goes.

Bet

Bet
16th June 2010, 05:42 PM
I have just read another Another Bitter ,Vindictive Post in connection to the one I have mentioned.

I am saying no-more on this Subject, only to conclude by mentioning that who has got the Cavalier Breed into the Mess it's in to-day with the SM and MVD Health Problems but some Cavalier Breeders who were warned about those Two Problems years ago, so they have not made a very good job of trying to help the Suffering of our Cavaliers with their Breeding Programs.!!

We Cavalier Folk who have not Buried our Heads about the Health Troubles in our Breed ,and trying to do some-thing about them, are being accused of Deliberately Hindering the Progress for Cavaliers.

I will just ignore that Malevolent Comment.

Just remember Folks, we know what is happening to help our Cavaliers because of RUPERT'S FUND and the advances being made by the Researchers into the Cavalier Health Problems, so we will just let the Rants of a Certain Few, Flow like Water of A Duck's Back, as the saying goes.

Bet


MORE RESEARCH ON BRAIN VOLUMN AND SYRINXES


Could I share this information with the List .

I have just been speaking to Margaret Barnes, she is now 89, and was the Lady who along with her Mother Bred a Cavalier with a Cocker Spaniel in the early 1950's.

The Cavalier was CREST by CANDLELIGHT ,DOG, and the Cocker Spaniel was SUNTOP JOYFUL,Bitch

Margaret was at one time Kennel Maid at the PARGETER KENNELS.

Our talk got onto SM ,and she said there was no sign of this Horrible Disease all the time she had been involved with Cavaliers.

I mentioned about the Heads of Cavaliers in those days, she said that the Cavaliers had Strong Heads, and she went onto say ,she wonders if Cross Breeding could be of a Benefit to the Cavalier Breed and their SM Problem.

It was lovely speaking to Margaret, some-one who really knows about our Cavalier Breed.

Bet





Remember I mentioned a Cavalier Pedigree a wee while ago, no CM or SM, and this Cavalier can be Traced back to the Cocker Spaniel,OREO has also mentioned this on this List