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Quinny74
5th July 2010, 10:09 PM
I've seen these mentioned and was wondering what they are? Are they a different breed or just another name for a CKCS?
Does anybody have any info or photos please?

Very curious.

Thanks

Tania
5th July 2010, 10:39 PM
Found this on wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Charles_Spaniel

In 1903, The Kennel Club (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Kennel_Club) attempted to amalgamate the King James (black and tan), Prince Charle (tricolour), Blenheims and Ruby spaniels into a single breed called the Toy Spaniel. The Toy Spaniel Club which oversaw those separate breeds strongly objected, and the argument was only resolved following the intervention of King Edward VII (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Edward_VII) who made it clear that he preferred the name "King Charles Spaniel".[ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Charles_Spaniel#cite_note-3)

an found this on http://www.propettransports.com/showbreed.php/046

James II continued his brother's patronage of the breed, after which they fell from royal favour and were relegated to life on country estates as hunters of small game.


So my guess is this dog is a King Charles Spaniel rather than a Cavalier.

I am sure someone else will be able to clarify, perhaps Bet might know.

Bet
6th July 2010, 09:12 AM
Found this on wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Charles_Spaniel

In 1903, The Kennel Club (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Kennel_Club) attempted to amalgamate the King James (black and tan), Prince Charle (tricolour), Blenheims and Ruby spaniels into a single breed called the Toy Spaniel. The Toy Spaniel Club which oversaw those separate breeds strongly objected, and the argument was only resolved following the intervention of King Edward VII (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Edward_VII) who made it clear that he preferred the name "King Charles Spaniel".[ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Charles_Spaniel#cite_note-3)

an found this on http://www.propettransports.com/showbreed.php/046

James II continued his brother's patronage of the breed, after which they fell from royal favour and were relegated to life on country estates as hunters of small game.


So my guess is this dog is a King Charles Spaniel rather than a Cavalier.

I am sure someone else will be able to clarify, perhaps Bet might know.


What's a Cavalier King James?

Bet
6th July 2010, 10:20 AM
What's a Cavalier King James?

Don't know what happened there, !!! not had a Coffee yet.

A Big ,Big Thanks to Quinny and Tania, I had never heard of a Cavalier King James, Iv'e just printed off Tania's Links, you are such a Handy Person, what a lot Iv'e learnt just now.

When you read about our Cavaliers, you just begin to realize how often they have been Recreated.

Even the Cross-Breeding that has taken place.

There could perhaps be a good number of other Toy Breeds in the Back-Ground of the Cavalier Breed ,going back to the 15th Century just depending what was in Fashion at the Time.

The Cavalier is closely linked to the King Charles Spaniel and even the KCS have been Cross Bred.

There were what were called TOY TRAWLER SPANIELS at the beginning of the 20th Century, which were used to try to Recreate the the Original King Charles Spaniel.

By 1928 the First Cavalier Club was formed ,and this is where ANN'S SON owned and bred by Miss Mostyn Walker ,who, she has said, that his Sire was a Papillion ,was used as the First Standard was created,and the Kennel Club recognized the Breed as ,KING CHARLES SPANIELS, CAVALIER TYPE.

The founding Dogs in Breed were

ANN'S SON.

His Litter Brother WIZBANG TIMOTHY , he looked as different as Night from Day from ANN'S SON, is this another Mystery in the History of our Cavalier Breed !!

CARLO OF TTIWEH.

DUCE OF BRAEMORE

KOBBA OF KORUNDA

ARISTIDE OF TTIWEH

In 1945 the Kennel Club here in Britain first recognized the Breed in it's own right as the

the CAVALIER KING CHARLES SPANIEL.

Just for a wee bit of interest for our American Friends ,the first recorded Cavalier Living in America was brought from Britain in 1956 by W.LYON BROWN who along with Elizabeth Spalding,and other Enthusiasts,founded the CKCS Club USA.

If I could off at a Tangent here onto what is my Hobby,here are some of Elizabeth Spalding's Long Lived Cavalier's Ages that she has given me.

KILSPINDIE UPSHOT Lived to 15 and 6 months

Sire was Pargeter Bob up a British Cavalier, Dam ,..Pargeter Prunella of Kilspindie ,another British Cavalier , she lived to 15.5 years

Kilspindie Song Bird ..14

Kilspindie Chalumeau....14

Just to finish with ,if I could include in this Post, my concerns about the Health problems of our Beloved Cavalier Breed,did the 6 Founding Cavaliers of the Cavalier Breed ,one of them have the Genes to give the MVD Problem, we know that in the 1940's Cavaliers did have Heart Trouble, but what about SM, does this Insidious Disease go back to one of those Founder Cavaliers as well, this we will never know, so we are where we are with the Health Problems afflicting to-days Cavaliers, and for the Breed to continue, those Faulty Genes have to be found .

Thank Goodness for us Lovers of Cavaliers ,this is now going on.

Bet

Brian M
6th July 2010, 10:39 AM
Hi

King James :confused:,mmm its not a type of potato or cigar like King Edward is it .:)

Bet on a serious point are our Cavaliers living ( average ) longer now or is the average life expectancy reducing and is MVD more common now than say what it was 30/40 years ago ,and lastly when was SM first truly recognised or has it always been in the breed but just denied .

Bet
6th July 2010, 11:15 AM
Hi

King James :confused:,mmm its not a type of potato or cigar like King Edward is it .:)

Bet on a serious point are our Cavaliers living ( average ) longer now or is the average life expectancy reducing and is MVD more common now than say what it was 30/40 years ago ,and lastly when was SM first truly recognised or has it always been in the breed but just denied .

What's a Cavalier King James?

Bet
6th July 2010, 11:59 AM
Hi

King James :confused:,mmm its not a type of potato or cigar like King Edward is it .:)

Bet on a serious point are our Cavaliers living ( average ) longer now or is the average life expectancy reducing and is MVD more common now than say what it was 30/40 years ago ,and lastly when was SM first truly recognised or has it always been in the breed but just denied .

What's a Cavalier King Jame's ?

Brian,

If I could quote Surveys ,the average age now for Cavaliers is around 10.

I know some Cavalier Breeders will say that such and such Cavalier Lived to such and such an AGE, there is nobody knows this like me that this is true, but those that do live onto 14-15 ,plus are the exception , why I started to collect the ages of Long Lived Cavaliers , was not to give a False Security about our Cavalier Breed having no Health Problems ,but I had noticed that some-times if a Cavalier had lived to a good age ,even having developed an early Heart Murmur. that Cavalier had a number of Long Lived Cavaliers in the Pedigree back-ground,.

I then contacted Dr C. Kvart ,a Cardiologist in Sweden about this, ,and he replied that this was so possible ,that the more Long Lived Ancestors a Cavalier had ,the better the chance of those Long Lived Genes coming through to Future Cavalier Generation and giving Cavaliers the chance of Longer ,Healthier Lives.

I know that in 1983 Dr P.Darke, a Cardiologist carried out Surveys a CKCS Club Shows, and was shocked about the extent and how wide-spread the MVD Problem was in our Breed .

The UK CKCS CLUB recommended the MVD Breeding Guidelines in 1987, even to-day, sadly some Cavalier Breeders ,even Club Members ,are just not heeding them,and we are now being told that 50% of Cavaliers will have a Heart Murmur at 5 years of age.

That this is no better than it was 18 years ago,now the hope is to try and delay the early onset of the Type of MVD that only applies to Cavaliers and no other Toy Breed ,by not Breeding from a Cavalier till 2.5 years of age, but sadly , we know this is not happening.

Now to SM, Dr C Rusbridge, first gave warning to the UK CKCS CLUB about 13-14 years ago when she had a number of Cavaliers with a Serious Neurological Problem, maybe I am talking out of turn here , but it was not until Margaret appeared on Jemima Harrison's Pedigree Dogs Exposed TV Program , that serious concerns about this Disease started to be being aired, some Cavalier Breeders were by this time MRI Scanning their Cavaliers, but now because of Margaret ,Karlin ,Carol and other Cavalier Owners with Cavaliers suffering from SM and the PDE TV Program the Press started to hear about this Dreadful Disease, and mentioned about it in the News-Papers, and then All Hell Was Let Loose by some Cavalier Breeders who were still in denial about the the SM Problem.

Unless the SM and MVD Genes are found ,will there be a Cavalier Breed in 20 years time.

I don't think any-body knows the answer to this question.

Bet

Kate H
6th July 2010, 12:00 PM
Sounds as if someone's trying to be clever and call a Black and Tan Cavalier by the name (King James) used for a Black and Tan in the King Charles Spaniel breed!

Kate, Oliver and Aled

sins
6th July 2010, 12:40 PM
Taken from the book "The dog as companion and guard F townend barton (1911)

In 1911 there seemed to be a variety of “Toy spaniels” some of which were British in origin and others of Asiatic descent
The dogs were categorized by colour, “the Blenheim was at one time used in field sports but the present type would be of very little use for such purposes. It seems to be the aim of the present day fancier to reduce the toy spaniel to a minimum weight compatible with show bench points"
Blenheims were orange and white, the body being white with orange patches or markings, body compact, forelimbs perfectly straight and heavily feathered. Hind limbs straight with a superabundance of feathering, while that on the tail must be five to six inches long. The head must be well domed ,forehead projecting well over the eyes and the stop deep so as to render the animal apparently noseless.

It also mentions the lozenge about the size of a sixpence in the centre of the blaze but the absence of the spot was still considered typical. The best weight being seven to ten pounds.
The King Charles apparently was the black and tan version and the Prince Charles was the tricolour! A fourth toy spaniel called the ruby also existed.
The toy spaniels were "active little dogs and ought not be pampered too much, otherwise they become fat asthmatical and liable to develop skin trouble” and a fairly good one could be bought for ten to twelve guineas!

Sins

Brian M
6th July 2010, 12:43 PM
Kate

My son often mentions an all Black Cavalier ,I presume the odd one has cropped up in the past but have they ever been recognised as a breed color and therefore accepted by the clubs and shown .

Bet ,thanks for your reply .

Tania
6th July 2010, 12:55 PM
Yes, thanks Bet, the information you have given is fascinating. :)

AT
6th July 2010, 09:42 PM
never heard of a king james spaniel the black and tan colour is king charles. probably just confusion

as for SM , in lady lytons book toy dogs and their ancestors (1911 ) it is mentioned that older dogs sometime develop a habit of scratching without obvious reason

Bet
7th July 2010, 10:09 AM
never heard of a king james spaniel the black and tan colour is king charles. probably just confusion

as for SM , in lady lytons book toy dogs and their ancestors (1911 ) it is mentioned that older dogs sometime develop a habit of scratching without obvious reason

WHAT'S A CAVALIER KING JAMES?

Unfortunately there is more than just Scratching for the Symptoms of SM.

Until I am proved wrong, I still say that the Recreation of the Cavaliers Heads from the Larger Type of Head from 30-40years to the Smaller ,Deeper Stop ,Shorter Muzzle Type of Head in many of to-days Cavaliers ,is some-how involved with their SM Problem.

Could this be causing less space available for the Cavalier Brains?

If we only knew ,with evidence to prove it ,that Cavaliers were suffering from SM 50-60 years ago, but this can never be proved, not like the MVD Problem in our Breed.

The only thing I can say is ,I have a Cavalier Pedigree ,of a Cavalier MRI Scanned ,no CM or SM, and the Pedigree can be traced back to the Cross between the Cavalier and Cocker Spaniel in the 1950's.

I know that it can't be said that Cavaliers with a Larger Type of Head could be free of SM, since SM by all accounts is now so wide-spread, that even those Cavaliers probably will have the SM Gene.

Why Oh Why did not many of the Cavalier Breeders who were determined to cover up this Horrible Disease,listen to the warning given years ago about it, and MRI Scan their Cavalier Breeding Stock then .

They should not be kidding themselves , those who buried their Heads in the Sand about the SM Problem ,SM has now like MVD got a grip on our Cavalier Breed and it's no use saying the Cavaliers are a Healthy Breed.

Bet.

Nicki
7th July 2010, 10:10 AM
I'd not heard of a King James either - think someone is making things up :(


Brian, solid Black Cavaliiers do occasionally occur - it's never been a recognised colour though. There was one on the board a while back.

Black and White was once a recognised colour but it was found that the pigment wasn't good and it was discontinued - they do occasionally still occur {Like Cathy's Micah :) }

You can sometimes see faint colouring where the tan should be.