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Holly
31st July 2010, 03:32 PM
Anyone notice a connection? My SM girl is a very sound sleeper-- my other 2 jump up and follow me as soon as I get up, but my girl with SM stays sound asleep. I always thought it was because of her meds-- that they make her sleep soundly. When a friend of mine watched her for me, she said she thought she probably had hearing loss based on her observaions over the 5 days she kept her for me. That actually makes a lot of sense to me. She said she thought she recalled hearing or reading that SM and hearing loss can be connected.

Do any of you notice that perhaps your SM dogs don't hear as well as they should?

Karlin
31st July 2010, 04:23 PM
My understanding is that hearing loss isn't SM related but is known to be connected to PSOM, which seems common in the breed, and also connected to what recently was named as genetically-linked early-onset hearing loss in the breed that isn't PSOM related. I think Rod posted on this and has info on his site?

Deafness seems unfortunately fairly common in the breed -- I see it regularly in rescue dogs -- and often seems to start to appear around age 5-6. My Lucy scanned SM and PSOM clear at almost 10 but was deaf by 7 when my parents got her.

Karlin
31st July 2010, 04:36 PM
There's a good downloadable pamphlet from Ohio State on the cavalier and health issues -- it does include deafness as an SM symptom but does note, in an article on PSOM (by one of the leading experts on it), that deafness could also be caused by a genetic predisposition:


The presenting signs of PSOM may include
pain localized to the head and neck, balance
problems, drooping of the ear or lip, drooling
saliva, inability to blink the eye, involuntary
rapid movement of the eyeball, head tilt
and/or hearing loss. However, these signs are
also symptoms of syringomyelia, while
hearing loss alone may be due to progressive
hereditary deafness, both of which are
diseases identified in the CKCS.


The pamphlet is here:

http://www.vet.ohio-state.edu/assets/pdf/hospital/companionAnimals/cavalierKingCharlesSpaniel.pdf

However I am pretty sure Clare Rusbridge and some others do not think deafness is likely to be due to SM. I will ask! :) That said different researchers may have different opinions on this issue.

Hope that helps!

Leo (with SM) has some directional hearing loss. But he also has PSOM. Lily (small syrinx) has no hearing problems; also has PSOM.

Tania
31st July 2010, 09:39 PM
Thank you Karlin, yes it does help. Dougall has psom and we are going through a
bit of a difficult time with him.

Kate H
31st July 2010, 09:52 PM
I think there's a little bit on Claire Rusbridge's website (on the SM symptoms page I think) that a lot of dogs with SM are also deaf, but there doesn't seem to be any actual connection between the two things. My Oliver is almost completely deaf in his left ear, which is also the side where he gets occasional incidents of painful light phobia - due to his dilated ventricles pressing on the nerves at the back of the eyes. Which makes me wonder whether there is a connection between CM and deafness, through pressure on the nerves of the ear -pure inexpert speculation, of course!!

Kate, Oliver and Aled

Karlin
31st July 2010, 11:55 PM
Just had an email back from Penny Knowler (who works with Clare Rusbridge) who says in their view, there's no direct connection.

Holly
1st August 2010, 08:48 PM
Thank you for looking into this, Karlin.

Nicki
1st August 2010, 09:46 PM
Thanks for that Karlin - in my own dogs, I haven't seen a connection between SM and hearing loss. Have had several deaf dogs, one of whom was an MRI grade A at 7 1/2 - have also had two severely affected dogs, neither of whom had any hearing loss.

Also have a youngster with PSOM but no hearing loss.

Kate H
1st August 2010, 11:41 PM
I knew from the website that research shows no obvious connection between SM and deafness. My query is about CM and deafness - given that the majority of Cavaliers have CM, which can cause dilated ventricles without necessarily producing a syrinx. This seems to me much more of a problem with Oliver than his small syrinx, for example. Understandably, research is focusing on SM because it is the syrinx that produces the really awful symptoms, but I do wonder what effect CM has had on Cavalier health over the years (even when it didn't lead to a syrinx).

Kate, Oliver and Aled

Pat
2nd August 2010, 05:35 AM
Dewey's speaker notes from AVMA Convention, third paragraph:

"Some specific clinical findings in dogs with CM/SM include"...........................lists nine other symptoms and last one listed is "hearing abnormalities."

He goes on to say that it is important to realize that other conditions may account for some of the clinical signs. He then talks about PSOM and then says that congenital deafness is also well-described in the CKCS breed.

Question from me - does congenital deafness mean a dog that is deaf at birth or can that include early onset deafness or deafness at a young or middle age versus geriatric deafness.

Pat

Margaret C
2nd August 2010, 08:17 PM
Dewey's speaker notes from AVMA Convention, third paragraph:

"Some specific clinical findings in dogs with CM/SM include"...........................lists nine other symptoms and last one listed is "hearing abnormalities."

He goes on to say that it is important to realize that other conditions may account for some of the clinical signs. He then talks about PSOM and then says that congenital deafness is also well-described in the CKCS breed.

Question from me - does congenital deafness mean a dog that is deaf at birth or can that include early onset deafness or deafness at a young or middle age versus geriatric deafness.

Pat



Taken from a medical dictionary.......


"Congenital: Present at birth. A condition that is congenital is one that is present at birth."

"Congenital deafness: Loss of hearing present at birth.
Congenital deafness contrasts to acquired deafness which occurs after birth.
The distinction between congenital and acquired deafness specifies only the time that the deafness appears. It does not specify whether the cause of the deafness is genetic (inherited).
Congenital deafness may or may not be genetic."

"Acquired deafness may or may not be genetic. For example, it may be a manifestation of a delayed-onset form of genetic deafness. Or acquired deafness may be due to damage to the ear from noise."


I have not known of many cavaliers that have been deaf at birth, but I do know of many that had early onset deafness and I do believe that it is an inherited problem in some lines.

Pat
3rd August 2010, 01:57 AM
Those are the definitions that I thought were correct, so I wonder what Dr. Dewey was referencing on his speaker notes and if he intended to say that "heritable early onset deafness is well described in the CKCS breed" rather than "congenital deafness is well described in the CKCS breed." I've never heard of very many (if any) Cavaliers that were deaf at birth.

Pat

RodRussell
3rd August 2010, 03:39 PM
... so I can only conclude that Dewey made an "error" on his speaker notes and that he intended to say that "heritable early-onset deafness is well described in the CKCS breed" rather than "congenital deafness is well described in the CKCS breed." I've never heard of very many (if any) Cavaliers that were deaf at birth.

I don't think Dr. Dewey mispoke. I have understood that Cavaliers have been found to be predisposed to a form of congenital deafness, due to a lack of formation or early degeneration of receptors in the inner ear.

Pat
3rd August 2010, 06:29 PM
I don't think Dr. Dewey mispoke. I have understood that Cavaliers have been found to be predisposed to a form of congenital deafness, due to a lack of formation or early degeneration of receptors in the inner ear.

Thanks, Rod. I am going back to edit my post as it wasn't properly worded - and maybe you can edit your post with my quote if you have a second so that the posts match.

So then are there four types of hearing loss that are possible - this form of congenital deafness that you describe, early-onset deafness that occurs in more middle aged adults, partial deafness that might be associated with PSOM, and true geriatric deafness? A number of my own Cavaliers displayed deafness at about age 6-9 (I'd consider that early onset), and a few others became deaf at 12-16 (I'd consider that geriatric). I actually had one Cavalier that had full hearing until he died at age 14. I never had any young adults that displayed hearing abnormalities.

Pat

RodRussell
3rd August 2010, 07:38 PM
... So then are there four types of hearing loss that are possible - this form of congenital deafness that you describe, early-onset deafness that occurs in more middle aged adults, partial deafness that might be associated with PSOM, and true geriatric deafness? A number of my own Cavaliers displayed deafness at about age 6-9 (I'd consider that early onset), and a few others became deaf at 12-16 (I'd consider that geriatric). I actually had one Cavalier that had full hearing until he died at age 14. I never had any young adults that displayed hearing abnormalities.

I think those categories are probably right. Dr. George Strain includes Cavaliers on his congenital deafness list, although not in bold letters as he does with some other breeds (Dalmatians in particular), to distinguish the degree of incidence. That would include the Cavaliers' lack of formation or early degeneration of the inner ear receptors.

Dr. Mike Podell has discovered the progressive hearing loss which usually begins during puppyhood and worsens until the dog is completely deaf, usually between the ages of three and five years. The progressive nature of this form of deafness is believed to be due to degeneration of the hearing nerve.

We now know about PSOM (a/k/a "glue ear" or "middle ear effusion" or "otitis media with effusion (OME)"), which does not necessarily cause a dog to become hard of hearing. Incidentally, PSOM recently has been associated in the Cavalier with brachycephalic conformation, particularly a greater thickness of the soft palate and reduced nasopharyngeal aperture.

As for geriatic deafness, I don't know much about it in the breed, but I don't doubt it exists. All of our deaf Cavaliers -- I can recall four or five of them -- began lossing their hearing around age 3 to 5, as best we could detect. These dogs tend to compensate for hearing loss, especially when they can watch what the other dogs are doing. We've had blind Cavaliers, too, and my greatest fear is that both ailments would affect the same dog. That has not happened yet. I'd rather have a deaf dog than a blind one.

Pat
3rd August 2010, 10:07 PM
We've had blind Cavaliers, too, and my greatest fear is that both ailments would affect the same dog. That has not happened yet. I'd rather have a deaf dog than a blind one.

I have known several blind and deaf Cavaliers, and I've owned two myself. It is quite variable; some do quite well and some do very poorly. A lot seems to depend on whether the conditions progress slowly or are of acute onset.

My Darby had juvenile cataracts when I adopted him at age 7, and by then they had resorbed and caused uveitis and eventually glaucoma and eventually both eyes were removed. The vision was lost gradually. During the same period, his hearing also was lost gradually. He compensated very well, never ran into things and he would always be where he was "supposed" to be - i.e., in the kitchen sitting and "looking" at the counter when I was preparing meals, at the door barking when someone was knocking, at the garage door when I arrived home from work, etc. A lot had to do with an unchanging routine, having the other dogs and the cat to follow, and his sense of smell. His sense of smell became even more acute; for example, a friend once took him to the vet and I met them there. When I entered the crowded waiting room, his head shot up and his nose was clearly scenting me as his tail started wagging madly.

In contrast, my Capers lost his hearing gradually from about age 7-10, and he did fine with that. But at age 16, he became suddenly blind and he didn't adjust well at all. He would get tangled up in things like chair legs and he became very frustrated and anxious so he would bark and circle. To further complicate things, he became more senile at about the same time. He was euthanized at 16 1/2 because his quality of life was so poor from the blindness and senility despite the fact that his heart failure and kidney failure were well compensated with few symptoms.

Pat

ByFloSin
4th August 2010, 12:50 PM
My Rebel is almost 8 years old and has recently and suddenly become stone deaf. I have rattled pebbles in cans behind him, both while awake and asleep, without any response from him, whereas the other dogs have been running hither and thither to escape the awful creschendo.

As he has both SM and CM, plus syrinxes, but is asymptomatic, I took him into the vet last week to check whether he thought the deafness was a symptom of the SM, but the vet said it was not.

So he is yet another case of early onset deafness - incidentally the first Cavalier i have ever had with any kind of deafness, well apart from the usual selective hearing that is grin grin