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Brian M
26th September 2010, 08:10 PM
Hi

Yesterday Rosie yelped twice then came straight over and sat by me for comfort, then later on she had trouble sitting bending down and scratching with her back foot under her chin and she was very wary of twisting her body when she moved .We went for a walk with all four in the afternoon and she walked OK but did not chase her ball which she normally does and when home would not walk up the stairs she waited to be carried and the same coming in from the garden there is a step of about 300 mm up into the back porch and she waited to be lifted up .I took her and Poppy to the vets on Friday for their anal glands as Rosie was scooting a lot but she always seems to do and she is always licking or chewing down below and at her feet an awful lot but this has been going on a long time .I fear a joint problem somewhere but any other ideas .I add lots of joint and mobility supplements to her food and have done for a long and about 12 months ago we had a suspected patella problem which one of the vets was quick to recommend surgery which I refused and she hasn't had a single twinge since with her knees ,she is fully insured so we can go in any direction but I would like comments from our experts prior to my vets visit where I think they will say xray then surgery for whatever they may find or am I being gloomy .Rosie is a beautiful little girl and I will do whatever is needed to help her in anyway I can .And on todays walks she was fine but I didnt push her to run and I had to carry her upstairs again .

Nicki
26th September 2010, 09:14 PM
I am sorry to hear that poor Rosie sounds a bit sore :( My first thought was anal glands but obviously that has been checked.

I think I would want to get her checked out at the vets - tell them everything you've told us.

I wouldn't take her for a walk - rest her for a few days. No jumping, chasing about etc.

It doesn't sound like a patella issue.

It's good that you've got her insured, at least you know then that finances are not going to affect any treatment decisions.


It could possibly be a vertebral disc issue - and I'm sure you've already thought about it and don't want to even got there, but the things you have mentioned are symptoms of Syringomyelia. :( We don't want to face it, but sadly our poor dogs do not have that option - and we have an obligation to them to find out what is wrong and obtain the appropriate treatment.

I really hope that this is not Rosie's problem - but I think we need to consider all possibilities.


You are both in our thoughts - telephone the vets in the morning, and let us know when you have an appointment arranged. Make sure you print off the appropriate information from SM Cavalier Talk and www.Veterinary-neurologist.co.uk

Take care - gentle hugs for Rosie

team bella
26th September 2010, 09:52 PM
Just had similiar thing with Bella. She is the sofa queen and likes nothing more than sitting on the back of the sofa and being a little madam. Anyway for the last week she's let out the odd yelp when she's jumped up. She also yelped once when playing with Jessie but I didn't think that was too unusual as they are very lively at playtime. Anyway she started to sit and look up at the sofa and then gives me look to lift her up. I did this twice over the week and then on Thursday night as I went to pick her up she let out the most almighty yelp. I took her to the vet who examined her legs, neck and then down her spine. As she worked down her back she got to just past her shoulders and you could see that there was a spasm and tenderness. She's pretty sure that its just muscular and not a disc. She has given Bella 5 days of Metacam and doesn't want to see her back unless she doesn't improve. If I need to take her back she will xray her. So far so good and there's been no yelps or anything painful and she finishes the Metacam on tuesday. It could be something similar to Rosie's problem. I suppose its a process of elimination. Either way get her checked out. Let me know how she goes on.
Forgot to say that the vet also said no walks and just a potter around the garden, which is easier said than done.

Tania
26th September 2010, 10:29 PM
Hi Brian,

I agree with Nicki, keep Rosie quiet for a while. I would strongly recommend you initially get Rosie clinically examined for sm! (you know the drill) I know this is everyones biggest fear, but you need to rule this out, as you could be wasting valuable time. If it is bad news, at least she can be put on meds to make her more comfortable.

I wasted time with Molly having x rays after x rays and tests after tests and just going round and round in circles, in the meantime the poor little girl was suffering!
If it is not sm, then we can all help and look into other possibilites.

Lots of hugs to you all :hug:

(Have sent you a pm)

Brian M
27th September 2010, 08:43 AM
Hi

I am still confused she slept all night by me got up at 6.00 am ran down the stairs outside for a wee jumped back up into the porch ran up the stairs and jumped on the bed then started nibbling her feet later ran down the stairs and started scooting .
So no yelps at all and two things I cant work out why does she nibble her feet so often and why is she scooting still when we only went to the vets on Friday when she had her glands emptied.
I have an appointment at 9.15 with one of the better vets at the practice .I have an anal gland problem going round and round in my head what are the thoughts about removal if it is ,I hope I am wrong but I don't see SM. to me not enough symptoms but then again i know not a lot .
Tania no pm but an email at work will ring as soon as I can .

Thanks all

PS Tania I never really believed that you snore ,honest ,as you say ladies don't do things like that.

Jane P
27th September 2010, 08:53 AM
It does sound a bit like anal gland problems, but don't entirely discount SM. As with Tania I too wasted almost a year having different tests done before finally ending up the correct diagnosis.

Thinking of you and Rosie and hoping all goes well at the vets this morning.

Brian M
27th September 2010, 10:53 AM
Hi

Just back saw Mr Marsden one of the partners he listened looked felt and daignosed a twisted back gave her a steroid injection (old faithful for vets ) checked her rear end then discounted her anal glands ,listened to her heart (thats the part I hate ) and said thats fine ,pulled and pushed all four legs they are OK, listened to my story felt her prodded her looked at her walk and the way she holds her stance then discounted SM .So really the best outcome I could possibly have hoped for though I do realise SM syptoms and the presence of it and of CM can only be conmfirmed by a scan so I may have to give that more thought .I do watch their every move as being a Cavalier owner the dark thought of SM /CM is always present but I also try and balance that by the enjoyment they give which I try and return by making their lives with me as pleasurable as possible for them all.:)

Thank you all for your kind comments and geunine concern shown which prove again its an honour and a priveledge to be a member of CT with so many kind people

team bella
27th September 2010, 11:31 AM
Great news Brian, I did think it sounded similar to what Bella had. The vet did say that Bella's weight could contribute to the problem, but we are heading in the right direction with that, as she's down from 10.6kg to 9.6 Kg. So just a thought about Rosies weight. I do know what you mean about the SM thing, its always not far from the mind.

Brian M
27th September 2010, 11:50 AM
Hi

Yes I am so happy it is just that ( fingers crossed ) and Rosie's weight is now 9.50 kilo and I would like it down around 8.25 ,though lately all four have put on a bit of weight as about six weeks ago she was 8.80 kilo and I do carefully weigh everything so I will have to be a bit more cruel and cut back on all of them .

sins
27th September 2010, 12:04 PM
If she shows any repeat symptoms Brian,then go and get the scan arranged.
We all like to think our cavaliers don't/won't have SM,but we really need to break down the taboos and fears surrounding Syringomyelia and start treating it like any other clinical condition.
Basically,if a dog shows symptoms,we should really investigate it fully, in the best interests of the dog and then manage the condition as appropriate.
I say this to so many people,but a diagnosis of SM will not change the way you feel about your dog,they're still the same loving little companions that they always have been.
I know what you mean about the dark thought of SM being there...but fear of the unknown is far worse than dealing with an actual diagnosis,if that makes sense.
Scans,either the low cost ones or the full scan done through your insurance are safe and quick and will give you a definitive answer once and for all.
Hopefully Rosie will make a full recovery from whatever is troubling her at the moment.
Sins

Brian M
27th September 2010, 12:29 PM
Hello Sins

Where do we stand with Chestergates now and does a low cost scan give you the information you need and can Chestergates do a full scan and if not where would you recommend to go .Any scan would be insurance covered ,actually only just renewed all four .

Jane P
27th September 2010, 12:49 PM
I don't know if Chestergates do the low cost screening scans but when Dylan had his scan at Stone Lion Clare Rusbridge said if the dog was showing signs of SM then it is preferable to have a full scan done which shows exactly how severe it is so she can taylor the medication to suit. The low cost scans are really for breeders whose dogs are not showing signs of SM and are for screening purposes.

sins
27th September 2010, 01:07 PM
Most logical place for you to go Brian,should the need arise is to Chestergates as it's practically on your doorstep and have the full scan done.If you have a dog showing signs of pain from any spinal complaint,I'd prefer the full scan to be done.
Stone Lion have plenty of low cost days planned as far ahead as February,dates and details are now on Clare Rusbridge's site,but you wouldn't get a consultation and if you have a symptomatic dog,it's best to chat with a specialist.
I found Geoff Skerritt to be very sympathetic and kind when Daisy was diagnosed.Also even if it isn't SM but another condition,you have expert advice literally only ten mins away from you.
Sins

Sandrac
27th September 2010, 02:13 PM
Brian, If Rosie does show any more symptoms of scooting etc. please please arrange to get her MRI'd.

My vet poo pooed SM when Minnie kept having repeat bouts of "not wanting to go upstairs or jump up on bed" that lasted anything from 8 hours to 7 days. My Vet even gave me an extra lot of Rimadyl to keep to use when she had symptoms as he said she had a muscle problem with her lower back and it was obviously a weak spot. :sl*p:
She was always having her poor bum checked as she scooted a lot as well as head rubbing.

I finally tooked the bull by the horns and joined in with one of the low cost MRI days at Stone Lion for my own peace of mind. My vet was completely speechless when he saw the MRI, but at least now she is getting the treatment she needs.

Hope Rosie is soon on the mend and that the Metacam helps her and :xfngr: she is A1 OK.

meljoy
27th September 2010, 03:22 PM
Hi Brian,
Just reading this now. Im sorry Rosie is not her self
:( It's a terrifying thought that you maybe facing SM but you know you only have her best interest at heart and what ever the problem she needs to rest assured that you'll get it sorted:hug:

team bella
27th September 2010, 03:54 PM
Can I just ask a question please. Is there a cut off age as to when dogs would show symptons. What I mean is if a dog has got to the age of 6 or 7 for example and shown no signs, would it be safe to say that its unlikely that dog would show signs or indeed have the conditions. Or is that just wishful thinking?? Hope that's clear.

Brian M
27th September 2010, 03:56 PM
Hello

And thanks for all your comments .I honestly would never ever have dreamt on Friday when I decided to take Pops and Rosie to the vet for a simple thing like getting their glands emptied that I would be in the position I am now :( I remember a thread on Ct last year about helping our Cavaliers and having our own scanned to assist in future research and my answer was no as I have no intention to either breed or show so being selfish I would not put any of my girls through any needless risk for them to their health and I honestly think my answer toady would still be no .I am still fairly happy with my and my vets conclusion that Rosie has no more than a strained back and I dearly hope we are both right ,but having read the replies on here and also being in contact with two good friends Sinead and Tania I have decided to go part way and have phoned my vets and asked for a referral for a full scan and he has agreed and will write to Chestergates today .My next step of course is to convince myself and agree to the appointment and attend ,I think I have a lot of thoughts to complete .:?:(
Thanks again to all for your wisdom .

And when I think of two wonderful devoted Cavalier people like Pauline and Kate H who often travel miles and miles by public transport it puts me to shame when Chestergates is 10 minutes by car from where I live .

heather r
27th September 2010, 08:32 PM
Brian; I'm holding out hopes that Poppy's problem is a fleeting one and not more serious!

Best of luck with her scan.

Heather R

Nicki
27th September 2010, 08:39 PM
Can I just ask a question please. Is there a cut off age as to when dogs would show symptoms. What I mean is if a dog has got to the age of 6 or 7 for example and shown no signs, would it be safe to say that its unlikely that dog would show signs or indeed have the conditions. Or is that just wishful thinking?? Hope that's clear.

Sadly no, dogs have shown symptoms as late as the age of 10 or 11...

However generally the older they show symptoms, the better - it does seem that the younger they are, the worst affected they appear to be.




Brian, I know it's very difficult but I do think you are doing the right thing in getting Rosie scanned. It will hopefully give you good news which will give you peace of mind - and if it isn't as good as we hope - then at least you will know and can get Rosie started on appropriate treatment.

You are indeed fortunate to be so near to such an excellent neurologist and scanning centre. They will look after Rosie very well and be able to give you good advice.


Sadly if anal gland problems are ruled out, then the scooting would worry me, this is not something that a back injury would normally cause. The steroids will help - just try to keep her rested.


We are all thinking of you - many of us have been in the same situation so do understand what you are going through.

Kate H
27th September 2010, 09:31 PM
Hi Brian

You will find that the people at Chestergates are great, and it is a very well-equipped hospital. You may also see a picture of my Oliver - when he had his second mini-scan last year, they were making a video to run in the waiting room and filmed Oliver having his hearing checked, looking like a Battle of Britain pilot in his headphones (or Snoopy as the Red Baron!).

Oliver was diagnosed via a mini-scan when he had virtually no symptoms, and what seemed to be the start of symptoms last summer - weakness in his back legs - turned out to be spondylosis and nothing to do with his SM. Six weeks of rest and a gradual return to exercise sorted this out - he can now happily walk 5 miles and jump up onto furniture and do stairs with no problems. So it's not impossible for Rosie to have a spinal problem that is nothing to do with SM, as well as possible SM - but only scanning will sort that out.

The great plus for Chestergates in my eyes is that they don't use anaesthetic, and scanned Oliver with a very minimal dose of sedative (he is a very placid dog anyway), but weighing up the risks has to be a personal decision. Knowing that Oliver has SM has been good (if you know what I mean!) - not because it has increased my worrying about him, but because I know what I'm dealing with, and that, for example, his occasional headaches in strong sunlight are due to his dilated ventricles and can be helped by an extra gabapentin, which I now carry with me. Yes, you keep a more careful look-out for symptoms, but then if you notice anything you can do something about it promptly. You may be missing things with Rosie now that you could be doing something to help - because, whether or not she has SM, you and your vet are working in the dark. Whatever the outcome, I do think it helps to know - but that's just my opinion; people are different in how they cope.

Kate, Oliver and Aled

HollyDolly
27th September 2010, 10:19 PM
Hi Brian
Fairy Godmother calling.
So sorry to read about poor Rosie. It is awful when they cry in pain, we feel helpless.

I am thinking of you all, let me know if there is anything I can do.

Nanette

Karlin
27th September 2010, 11:32 PM
Basically,if a dog shows symptoms,we should really investigate it fully, in the best interests of the dog and then manage the condition as appropriate.
I say this to so many people,but a diagnosis of SM will not change the way you feel about your dog,they're still the same loving little companions that they always have been.
I know what you mean about the dark thought of SM being there...but fear of the unknown is far worse than dealing with an actual diagnosis,if that makes sense.
Scans,either the low cost ones or the full scan done through your insurance are safe and quick and will give you a definitive answer once and for all.

I would agree with all of this and Brian, I agree that as hard as it may be to consider, you need to be looking a wider picture -- sadly SM figures are extremely high for the breed -- as an upcoming study is about to show. It could be a disk problem but the fact that you are also seeing repeat scooting even after anal glands are confirmed as not being a problem -- a common SM sign as it is a way for the dog to address discomfort in hindquarters, often an area affected by SM -- and feet chewing, ditto -- means you are actually reporting a broad range of typical SM signs -- scooting with no reason, feet chewing, some immobility that comes and goes (very typical), some scratching, definite high back/shoulder area pain (the most common region for syrinx pain).

The symptoms all sound like they could be SM, and the exam and diagnosis all sounds sadly too similar to the endless misdiagnosis by vets. How could a vet evaluate SM based on 'stance'? If only this were a remote possibility!! We could all save a lot of money on MRIs. :) More seriously, this is why the breed ends up suffering for an average of over 18 months for misdiagnosis for every case of SM. Vets are mostly, very ill-informed about the condition and often therefore make some odd guesses about what would likely reveal the condition or not. Stance is simply not one of them.

Many dogs with SM, including extreme syrinxes, show only a single symptom, too, so dogs needn't show more than one -- it is so important for people to understand this. SM is not necessarily a multiple symptom condition. MOST SM dogs actually do not scratch or air scratch, according to LIVS. It is a strange and enigmatic condition.

It is worth getting a basic scan I think, if you can. Better to eliminate a worry if at all possible, or to correctly diagnose and treat a condition, than wrongly diagnose.

Metacam, steroids and almost any painkiller will help SM symptoms too so people really need to be careful if they see a return of symptoms after meds, not to accept 'recurring back pain' as the answer in this breed but to investigate further.


So it's not impossible for Rosie to have a spinal problem that is nothing to do with SM, as well as possible SM - but only scanning will sort that out.

Also true and a good point. :)


The great plus for Chestergates in my eyes is that they don't use anaesthetic, and scanned Oliver with a very minimal dose of sedative

It is perhaps worth noting that actually Chestergates is a bit controversial for NOT using anaesthesia for scans. Many would consider this statistically a riskier and more complications-prone way of putting a dog under. I believe it costs less to sedate rather than give a GA. Some neurologists would not find using a sedative like this good practice. Others feel it is fine. Almost all neurologists I know of will not sedate and prefer GA. I think there's a misconception that sedation is safer but I think if people look at the evidence it actually is somewhat riskier. I have had 6 scans done on my dogs using sedation with no issues, but also have never heard of a complication with GA.

People in the Uk are at advantage in being able to get a low cost scan. The issue though for those finding they have dogs needing treatment is that a low cost scan will not generally include adequate long term advice and care from a neurologist, as they are really just one-off scans for breeding dogs. They are also generally not suitable for surgery. So if there's insurance I would start with a clinical exam and then consider a proper full scan if warranted rather than a low cost scan.

Many of us face these confusions and difficulties and quandaries about what to do. There's a great support group and many experienced friends here for advice and ideas.

Charlifarley
28th September 2010, 10:11 AM
Hi Brian, I am so sorry to read that Rosie is having problems. I think you are doing the right thing getting her scanned, because only with a scan will you know what you are dealing with. It will either confirm what you are dreading to hear, (and to be honest, it can nearly be a relief knowing what's wrong), or it will rule out SM.

SM is a horrible disease for any animal or person to have.

Fingers crossed for Rosie, hopefully she doesn't have it and it's something simple to treat, but if she does have SM the medication should help her in no time.
You know we are all here for you and your lovely doggies, whatever you decide. :hug:

Brian M
28th September 2010, 10:15 AM
Hi

And thank you all for your kind advice .Rosie this morning ran down the stairs up the stairs and into the garden and out of the garden and back up into the back porch then launched herself at Poppy for a wrestling match .So this morning all seemed normal just like having four toddlers running riot around the house .I am in deep thought about Chestergates and to be honest totally confused ,my first and only priority is the health and welfare of Rosie and everything else a distant second .

sins
28th September 2010, 11:30 AM
Glad to hear she's feeling better.
Just try not to let her do too much for a few days:D.
You don't have to make any decision until your referral details actually arrive.
Definitely get one of the Chestergates neurologists to have a look at her anyway.They'll be more clued in to whether it's a simple Musculoskeletal injury or something that they need to investigate.
and then take their recommendation on whether or not a scan is necessary.
Sins

Brian M
28th September 2010, 11:48 AM
Hi Sins

And thank you ,I am now starting to read as much as I can .Do or don't I presume that all Cavaliers have CLM from birth and if so does it then necessarily mean further down the line SM will automatically develop .I certainly do need my hand holding and lots of basic guidance as there seems an awful, awful lot to digest ,so I apologise in advance to the many questions I may ask of our members.

Charlifarley
28th September 2010, 11:56 AM
Ask away Brian, 'cos we all learn from what is discussed on the forum.

Mindysmom
28th September 2010, 12:02 PM
When Mindy hurt her back many years back the vet had me keep her quiet for 10 days - you may want to try and discourage the wrestling and jumping if you think Rosie has hurt herself.

As far as sedatives vs. GA - I had a very stern lecture myself when I had a dental surgery and was able to choose either. It was clear which the surgeon preferred and it says a lot for his ability to convince me NEVER to choose a GA if there was an alternative because of the added risk that he was able to convince a wuss like me to have the sedative. I don't know if the same holds true for dogs but I am not at all comfortable when either my kids or my dogs had to be put under a GA and I have heard of tragedies in both humans and pets strictly from GA.

tupup
28th September 2010, 01:31 PM
Dearest Bri
I do think a clear head is required here so try not to go overboard learning or panicking, we're all here to help in any way possible. We all know you well enough to know you would never ever let Rosie be in any pain without you getting to the vets asap & also you have a good basic knowledge of SM. You not we know your girls best& youre next to such a good place,Chestergates-why not phone them directly & ask their opinion...
Go from there,one step at a time.

I sincerely hope you will not be dealing with SM, however if you are the best care, ,advise& experts are at your disposal,for you & Rosie.However i feel a little insulted on your behalf any suggestion that Rosie would be misdiagnosed for months at a time due to lack of knowledge,whilst that might be the case with a newer member this is you we're talking to! No offence is intended to any here but you would walk to the end of the world if it would be best for your girls

To repeat something you & i often say to each other-what would you tell me to do my friend?

Tania
28th September 2010, 02:01 PM
However i feel a little insulted on your behalf any suggestion that Rosie would be misdiagnosed for months at a time due to lack of knowledge, No offence is intended to any here but you would walk to the end of the world if it would be best for your girls


Insults were certainly NOT intended. We are giving Brian the benefit of our own Experience and MISTAKES.

My advice still stands, I think Rosie should be Clinically examined by a Neurologist who is experienced in SM/CM (Chestergate sounds perfect) They can then advise.

There has never been any doubt of the love and devotion Brian has for his girls....all we want to do is help!

anniemac
28th September 2010, 05:38 PM
Kindest Brian,

I can't quite figure out the quote thing but what Tania said about your love and devotion to your dogs is true. Something like that. Not only to your dogs but to anyone in this group. You are the most kind operson and I am so sorry you are dealing with problems with Rosie. I know you posted something about trying to understand what it is like going through having a dog with SM just so you could sympathize. I hate that maybe you are now worried about her. I agree with several things people said.


MOST SM dogs actually do not scratch or air scratch, according to LIVS. It is a strange and enigmatic condition.

It is worth getting a basic scan I think, if you can. Better to eliminate a worry if at all possible, or to correctly diagnose and treat a condition, than wrongly diagnose.

I would like to say Ella has not scratched since her surgery. This is true. So it is hard to compare one thing and I think it is scary to think about SM especially knowing what some of us go through. The thing is, if it is, then you can help her better.

Karlin was tough on me when I was scared to have another MRI for Ella. (I am glad) but it is really hard even if it might not be the worse. I learned that it is better to know and rule it out. I know you have decided to do this with many peoples suggestions but I understand why you were hesitant.



Many of us face these confusions and difficulties and quandaries about what to do. There's a great support group and many experienced friends here for advice and ideas

Brian you have been such a support to me personally and I am sure people in the group would agree that you are a possitive special soul. I will be there for you and pray that Rosie will be "rosier" You know you have several friends and you love your "girls" so much.

I will be thinking of you and Rosie and I am sure you will keep us posted.

Nicki
28th September 2010, 09:21 PM
I don't think anyone was trying to insult Brian's intelligence - as Tania has said, we are all just trying to give him the benefit of our experience - this is one of the reasons we are so lucky to have this forum, that we can share and learn so much...I'm sure many of us wish we had had this resource when we were dealing with the same issues many years ago...:(


Brian made it clear that he is not fully informed about SM so it is appropriate to research further - but also to listen to those who sadly are experienced and knowledgeable about the condition.

We all KNOW that Brian would not leave Rosie to suffer - we are trying to help him understand the condition.

It's great that Rosie is feeling better, steroids are the appropriate treatment for a back strain but would also help with SM pain.

Brian, sorry to nag but you really DO need to keep Rosie quiet. If the only way to do that is with cage rest, then that might be what you need to do - just on lead to go outside to toilet. NO jumping, playing with the others etc.


I really do think that a consultation with a neurologist is appropriate - vets are not usually very experienced with SM - and it is certainly not possible to diagnose it or rule it out based on stance and movement - some affected dogs can still have perfect movement for many years.

Jane P
28th September 2010, 10:56 PM
Dearest Bri
However i feel a little insulted on your behalf any suggestion that Rosie would be misdiagnosed for months at a time due to lack of knowledge,whilst that might be the case with a newer member this is you we're talking to! No offence is intended to any here but you would walk to the end of the world if it would be best for your girls



I HAVE walked to the end of the world and back for Dylan especially in the last few weeks and being a 'new' member here does not make me any less knowledgeable about SM than others. I had to fight to get Dylan diagnosed and just do not want to see someone else having to go through the same heartache.

Kate H
29th September 2010, 10:02 AM
Do or don't I presume that all Cavaliers have CLM from birth and if so does it then necessarily mean further down the line SM will automatically develop .

Hi Brian

As I understand it, most Cavaliers have CM, but it is possible to have CM without developing SM; it is however very unusual to have SM without CM (and in that case the SM is usually due to trauma, ie external damage to the spinal cord).

And just to clarify, my remarks about preferring Chestergates because they don't anaesthetize were personal to me and Oliver, really. Oliver had a normal dose of sedative for his first mini-scan - and was still a bit groggy 8 hours later! Obviously for him very small doses of sedative work well, and he can often manage on a mild sedative in situations (such as X-rays for his spondylosis) where the vet would normally use anaesthetic. So I always remind the vet about his sedation sensitivity and am super-cautious about giving him a GA - reserved for life-threatening situations only! At the same time, I do recognise that GA has improved enormously - especially the use of pre-anaesthetic drugs which minimise the amount of anaesthetic needed. So the sedative/GA choice probably isn't a major issue for Rosie - but Chestergates remains convenient and has excellent neurologists!

I would second what someone else has said - while Rosie is on medication for a back problem, try and keep her quiet - crated if necessary. I know it's lovely to see her back to normal, but backs are fragile. When Oliver's spondylosis was diagnosed he was ordered 2 weeks total rest, then very slow build up of exercise - literally starting with 5 minutes twice a day. It took us nearly 2 months to get back to normal length walks, and even then I took him on longer outings in a buggy so that he rested for the boring pavement walking/train journeys and had the fun of running around off-lead. But I think this caution paid off, as a year later his back is fine and his spondylosis seems to cause him no problems.

Kate, Oliver and Aled

*Pauline*
29th September 2010, 03:24 PM
There are variations on GAs too. I was quite distressed at the state of Poppy after her spay at my local vets. She had to be carried and was quite clearly out of it.

After her MRI and a "good quality" (for want of a better expression) GA at Stone Lion with Clare Rusbridge, Poppy walked away as if she had had nothing done, she was fine. Makes me want to go to stone Lion for everything, if only I lived nearer.

Many who have had a dog with SM waited a while wondering if their dog had it. Questioned if they should get the scan done. Then those of us who had to change drugs and, after seeing an improvement, realised their dog had been in pain for a while. I include myself in these scenarios. We can't read the minds of our dogs, things usually creep up on us and we don't put two and two together. There is also an element of denial when we don't want bad news to be true. Dogs do go though some discomfort before the penny drops, that's life I'm afraid. If only they could talk.

Gald you got something sorted so quickly for Rosie. :)

sins
29th September 2010, 03:34 PM
There is also an element of denial when we don't want bad news to be true. Dogs do go though some discomfort before the penny drops, that's life I'm afraid. If only they could talk.

Very well put Pauline and so true.
Sins

anniemac
29th September 2010, 04:54 PM
[QUOTE There is also an element of denial when we don't want bad news to be true. Dogs do go though some discomfort before the penny drops, that's life I'm afraid. If only they could talk. :)[/QUOTE]

I don't know but in regards of knowing about SM, I feel like I have been trying to read stuff all the time and I am still confused. It is such a weird thing and I sometimes question myself. Actually I always question myself :p Yesterday Ella was running around, jumping, playing with these two Cavaliers like nothing is wrong. I thought to myself "I know she has SM but it can't be bad. Is it? What if..." All I know is she was having fun and feeling better. I think worrying about our dogs is a common thing we share and I worry about Rosie, Isabelle, Poppy, Dougall, the list goes on. They are our family.

They can't tell you their stomach hurts, or they have a headache, or their leg hurts etc. It is really difficult to figure things out about any health issue going on. You just know that you are the best parent she could ever have. :l*v:

Pamela Warrington
30th September 2010, 02:37 AM
Brian,

So sorry to hear about Rosie, I will pray all is well with her, you have been such a great inspiration to me and comforted me when I was feeling sad about Isabelle. I just wanted to extend my gratitude back, and let you know you and Rosie will be in my thoughts and prayers. I also wanted to share a year or two ago Isabelle had a spell for while were she was licking and having problems in her female area below herself. My doctor put her on Diethylstilbesterol 0.5 mg that I give her every 3 days and once in awhile I use this pads to wipe down around the area Duoxo Chlorhexiderm Pads that I use 1 - 2 times daily as needed. She has been doing fine now. I will have to ask my doctor what it was called the diagnose of what was causing it. I hope all will be well.

Blessings,
Pamela

Brian M
30th September 2010, 10:09 AM
Hello Ladies

I am indebted and overwhelmed by the caring response shown by all of you for my little Rosie it shows to all the loving attentive nature that all our members possess here on CT, and so to all I wish to offer my deepest thanks for your kind comments and advice and if I can offer any help in any way to any member it will be an honour and a privilege for me to assist.:smile:

I still await advice from Chestergates and will post when received .I thank Pamela for her kind words and suggestion to use Duoxo Chlorhexiderm Pads but cannot find the product in the UK so would one think a product called Dermacool would be of help .
http://www.hyperdrug.co.uk/Dermacool-Spray-50ml/productinfo/DERMACOOL/

Karlin
30th September 2010, 11:49 AM
Brian, I would add to what others have said that there is an overwhelming number of signs that you are listing that would make me get a scan *immediately* -- not wait. If SM is causing these varied and numerous symptoms, she is suffering. By not scanning, she may be left in at the very least, discomfort and pain that comes and goes and may well be in permanent discomfort she tolerates, and what you see when she has had more obvious symptoms are the spikes into more serious pain. I must reiterate that in humans SM is considered one of the most painful and debilitating of health conditions and I strongly feel any caring owner of this breed needs to get a dog scanned or examined by a neurologist if they are seeing significant signs of SM -- which sadly, you have already listed for Rosie -- as it seems to affect well more than 50% of the breed by age 6 or so.

Waiting to see if it might eventually prove to be something else because the vets think so -- when vets are generally misinformed or underinformed on SM -- could be very cruel to Rosie who may meanwhile be tolerating weeks or months more of unnecessary discomfort or serious pain. The only consequence of not scanning and therefore not really knowing whether she has this condition is the possibility that an animal you love is suffering. It is one thing if there are no or maybe just a single symptom that could very likely be something else. But by my count you have listed several of the most common signs that a dog is suffering and in noticeable pain that she tolerates, as most dogs will, as they have little choice if owners do not seek to get answers and then work to alleviate pain. Given so many signs, including some of clear distress and pain, I don't think that anyone who truly loves their dog can hope that by not scanning, it might be something else -- you need a definitive answer to help her in an informed and effective way.

Many members here have been through this uncertainty and many of them have expressed the same perspective. There is also absolutely NO difference in the value of anyone's input here whether a long time or recent member. Indeed a new member may have great insight :) -- a fresh set of eyes looking at an issue often sees more clearly (which is why a second opinion from a vet is often very valuable when a dog has any recurrent problem). It is often easy if you know a dog and are around a dog to dismiss signs that may be very obvious to an outside observer. The perspectives of those who have already walked in the shoes of having a dog with SM, and been through the nightmare of misdiagnosis while watching their dog in pain, are in my book, especially to be valued because such people know exactly how difficult it can be to get a vet to take this problem seriously. These may be long time board members or someone who joined an hour ago. All are equally valued and no less insightful. :thmbsup:

Sadly vets thus keep giving owners reasons NOT to help their dogs! This is one of my real frustrations -- the lack of seriousness many vets accord this problem even when they know about it, and their often ludicrous and incorrect assumptions about SM that lead them to offer meaningless diagnoses to owners.

It remains the case that most owners recognise the problem by self-education on SM before their vets ever do, and it is owners who most often insist on their dog seeing a neurologist and getting the correct diagnosis, not vets telling owners they should check out the possibility of SM.

Karlin
30th September 2010, 12:02 PM
Chestergates remains convenient and has excellent neurologists!

I agree! All mine have been scanned there too and at a pinch I can do this as a (long!) day trip by ferry (once part by plane as well). The U is fortunate to have a number of excellent centres with great neurologists, many of them offering low cost basic scans too. :)

Brian M
1st October 2010, 09:25 PM
Hello All

I have tried to keep off CT as I wanted to watch and decide my self ,my little girl was fine and on Wed was running jumping as normal so today I had a big smile on my face as after speaking to some high up knowledgeable Cav people I had virtually decided to watch and wait as Rosie to me was in no distress or any form of pain or discomfort.One comment made by an ex health rep of a club "was you know your dog " .After tonights walk she wouldn't jump into the porch and neither go up the stairs and has just crawled under the bed and cried out .No More .Ten mins ago I phoned Chestergates spoke to a kind person and tomorrow first thing just advise my insurance company and take her there for a full consultation and maybe a full scan if needed with a neurologist either Sat afternoon or Sunday afternoon just read Rupert's story followed by Charlie's story and I was crying .

Can somebody pls tell me what to expect I hope they don't look first for Sm as I still hold out I hope its a back problem and if this is so will they just diagnose this ,I am fearfully they may only be interested in SM cases and therefore try and direct all down that avenue .I am posting rubbish as I am not happy person tonight and nervous for my Rosie and the unknown ,pls help.

Kate H
1st October 2010, 10:55 PM
Hi Brian

As I said in an earlier post, Oliver has spondylosis as well as SM. I had taken him for a second mini-scan in May which had shown that his very small syrinx had doubled in size but was still small; after a mini-scan, the neurologist will look at the scan with you but you don't get a proper consultation. At that stage, still no obvious symptoms. In June he developed the spondylosis, which made him very wobbly on his back legs and obviously uncomfortable. My vet X-rayed him and diagnosed spondylosis, but given that he also had SM, recommended that I took him to Chestergates to see a neurologist in case there was more to it than straight spondylosis (we happen to have a vet who did her internship with Clare Rusbridge!). So I went three times and saw Ulrika Michal, who was very careful to separate out the SM and the spondylosis. She recommended complete rest, and had me back to make sure that this was working. She also felt that Oliver had a bit of pain when his back was pressed hard above his syrinx, so put him on a small dose of gabapentin, with furosemide to help his dilated ventricles, and sent a comprehensive report to my own vet. One of the best things about becoming Ulrika's patient is that I can still ring her for advice, which my vet encourages me to do when Oliver seems to have SM-related problems (such as the bad headache he got last autumn due to very strong sunlight).

You will find everyone at Chestergates friendly and caring. They know better than anyone how devastating the diagnosis of SM can be for Cavalier owners - Geoff Skerritt said wryly to me that they run up a flag on the roof when they scan a Cavalier who hasn't got it! I think they really do hope that they won't have to diagnose SM yet again. The reception staff remembered Oliver when he came back (though I think they also remembered the homemade shortbread I took for the staff at each visit!); you will also meet dogs with other neurological problems, and every owner I met said how good Chestergates had been with their dogs - they deal with all sorts of neurological conditions, not only SM. They have very good free coffee in the machine in the waiting room too!

You may find that some of Rosie's present pain is due to not having rest for her back problem, but anyway you will be able to help her far better after your visit to Chestergates, whatever the problem is.

All the best,

Kate, Oliver and Aled

*Pauline*
1st October 2010, 11:03 PM
Hi Brian. They will be asking you lots of questions and you will have plenty of opportunity to tell them you are concerned it may be a back problem. I can only tell you what I would do and if they offer you a scan, I'd take the opportunity, then you will know for sure. The scan might be a great way to investigate the spine too. Please don't worry Brian.

Charlifarley
1st October 2010, 11:18 PM
Brian, its great that you are able to access a neurologist so close to you and so quickly. I hope, with everything crossed, :xfngr:that it is a simple muscular problem, but at least you will know one way or another what you are dealing with. Please take care and try not to worry too much until you know what it is that you are dealing with. Will be thinking of you over the weekend.

anniemac
2nd October 2010, 12:20 AM
This is what ellas neurologist said. He said the majority of the time he sees SM is as a secondary condition. A dog may have an unrelated issue (like back) or a disk etc. And he will discovery they also have CM or SM but that was not the reason for the MRI. From what everyone said about chestergates it sounds like rosie is in good hands. The main thing is they are also wanting to figure out everything. Express your concerns and their job is to help

I love rupert and ella along with everyone on this forum but I also know sometimes you need to clear your head. don't do what I did and watch videos, read stories, etc. Right now. It really made me worse. Nikki I hope you don't mind but rupert will be there and we all are when you need us. I know I needed a couple of days before I talked. I also think I made ella not as happy. So take care of her. Take bunch of pictures, sit outside with your four beauties and the rest will come.

I hope you are asleep but don't beat yourself up! That's what you always tell me! The thing is you already are doing what you can. I want to be there but I am in spirit.

You need to put your faith that you have with the doctors and no matter what, I am sure they will do everything for your angel. Please take care of yourself. *ng*l*ng*lmay angels look over you this weekend

Brian M
2nd October 2010, 11:35 AM
Hi

Saturday is here ,firstly Rosie seems better but still had to be carried upstairs ,so at my vets to see Mr Marsden at 8.30 just for final advice and it was go to Chestergates .Phoned AXA at 9.00am to advise claim and for forms to be posted out they were fine and reminded me that it is life cover if the worst turns out .Next phone Chestergates spoke to a lady and confusion, it seem what I was told last night was wrong they don't do consultations or scans on a Sat or Sun ,so I held my ground. she then asked if it was an emergency and my response was it was not for me to decide but had just been to my vets and he said go ,she reconsidered and said she would speak to Martin Deutchsland and my vets and phone back .Which she did 20 Min's later and advised that because of the wrong info I was given last night and it being an error on their part Martin said he will see Rosie today at 3.00 pm.
Just been for a quick walk in the park and now home and as Rosie has had no breakfast I phoned Chestergates to ask and was told no food pls as Martin will scan today if needed ,just checked my Satnav and they are 11 mile from home so I will leave around 2.00 pm and get there early ,just Rosie and me so fingers crossed pls around 3.00 pm and thank you all for your kind support.

*Pauline*
2nd October 2010, 11:40 AM
Thinking of you and Rosie. I'm glad they are sorting things out quickly for you. I hope it turns out to be something that can be fixed. Is anyone going with you? :hug:

Brian M
2nd October 2010, 11:54 AM
Thanks Pauline

No just me and Rosie ,Luke has a lot of course work for school and my wife Dawn is not Cavalier loopy me.

MurphysMummy
2nd October 2010, 12:16 PM
Hi Brian
Thinking of you and Rosie today. please do not worry.
Hope you get the all clear later.
Cavalier cuddles from me and Murphy.
:flwr:

Nicki
2nd October 2010, 12:21 PM
We will be thinking of you Brian, you are doing the right thing getting Rosie scanned then you will know for sure what is going on. It's far better to know than the agony of not knowing, even if it's not the news you want to hear...


Don't forget that the majority of them have the malformation, and some do have symptoms just from that [like people].

Martin is excellent, he is very experienced and a really nice guy, so you are in very capable, understanding and caring hands.


You know that everyone on the board will be with you in spirit - so take that support with you, give Rosie a gentle cuddle from us before you go, and don't forget to update us as soon as you get home.


Rosie will need a small bland meal when she gets home, so maybe be preapred for that before you go.


Drive safely - at least you don't have too far to go.

Jane P
2nd October 2010, 01:37 PM
I know it's hard but you are definately doing the right thing. I'll be thinking of you both at 3.00 pm.:hug:

sins
2nd October 2010, 02:05 PM
Good luck Brian,
Hope it all goes well for Rosie and that Chestergates get to the root cause of her pain.
We'll all be thinking of you this afternoon.
Sins

Rumor
2nd October 2010, 02:18 PM
We are thinking of you & Rosie today Brian.

jasperpaw
2nd October 2010, 02:57 PM
Thinking of Rosie and you and wishing you well for this afternoon.

Brian M
2nd October 2010, 04:16 PM
Hi
On my phone had consutation and he watched poked pulled prodded questioned and his diagnosis was under examination PERFECTLY NORMAL horray but while here because of possible cm may as
Well scan and have a look .what a relief I owe u all a big hug shall go and sit in car for next two hours will update later

emsley
2nd October 2010, 04:49 PM
Oh, fantastic news !
Let's hope for the all-clear officially in 2 hours time.
Fingers and toes crossed!

meljoy
2nd October 2010, 05:09 PM
Brian, We've been on tender hooks here today....Im so glad it sounds positive. The neurologist we saw was sure Leo had SM but the scan results showed CM.
I know it's still not a perfect diagnosis but the knowing was a huge relief.......you are so wise to scan Rosie.

Keep us up todate. I was moved that you've shed tears as when Leo went to have his scan I sobbed like a baby the entire time....and when they told me the results I cried againicon_whistling

Brian M
2nd October 2010, 05:34 PM
Hi
Sitting in car expect till about 6.30 to 7.00 ,do they give
U a copy of scan ? More good news Birmingham 0 Everton 2 ,
Come on my Rosie

Karen and Ruby
2nd October 2010, 05:48 PM
Hi
Sitting in car expect till about 6.30 to 7.00 ,do they give
U a copy of scan ? More good news Birmingham 0 Everton 2 ,
Come on my Rosie

Hi Brian

Havent replied up until now but just to let you know we are all thinking of you. I remember only too well sitting in a car for hours waiting for my result with all number of thoughts running about in my head.

What ever happens, happens and you will be able to face it with all information available to you.
Im not sure about Chestergates but at Stone Lion the scan was shown to me at the consultation after and then I waited a few days for the report to be sent through.

Good Luck again

Charlifarley
2nd October 2010, 06:05 PM
That's great Brian, I am sure you are very relieved right now. Hopefully all will be ok too when you get the scan results and you can put all your worrying behind you.:rah:

sins
2nd October 2010, 06:10 PM
Don't worry Brian,
They'll go through the scan with you and recommend any medication as required.
Don't try to anticipate in advance what the results will be....
Just see what happens and try to relax,she's in good hands.
Sins

Brian M
2nd October 2010, 08:47 PM
Hello

Home ,but just read Annie's post and all our best wishes go to her and Ella .:(

A lot to take in but Rosie has no Sm and he commented that he considers her very unlikely of it developing based on her full MRI scan ,she is now fast asleep in her cat radiator bed by my side .From one part view of the the scan he pointed to a lower back disc that he considers is causing her the occasional problem though after his quite physical examination without any obvious pain reaction he reckons the disc at its worst might be a long term problem but theres certainly no need of surgery now, so just rest and relaxation for her with 10 mg of Rimadly twice a say to help and to see him again on the 15th.There was CM as expected but no syrinx and nothing that he could see expected to develop .

A nerve wracking day but a worthy reasult ,I think, so a BIG thanks go to my little lovable ruby girl named Rosie ,she didn't utter a sound all day .

Jasperxxgabby
2nd October 2010, 08:52 PM
Brilliant news, good girl Rosie :luv:

sins
2nd October 2010, 08:54 PM
I'm very pleased for you Brian,
and delighted for Rosie.:p
Now you finally have peace of mind where she's concerned and they've identified the cause of the pain.Try to keep her relaxed and calm for the next few days and no cartwheels or acrobatics.:thmbsup:
Sins

Brian M
2nd October 2010, 09:02 PM
Hi

Thanks to all ,does this make any sense as a lot of what was said went in one ear and out other so any help on decoding pls .Dont know if I am allowed to do this but its done and it might help others and if MC wants a copy of disc for any reason ?

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4151/5044646071_44f506940f_o.jpg

Nicki
2nd October 2010, 09:49 PM
That's great news Brian - does she have PSOM [fluid - exudate] in the ears? That could explain some of hte symptoms.

Her scan looks pretty good. Could you send a copy of the report [together with her pedigree and/or registration number] to Sarah Blott at the Animal Health Trust at Newmarket?

Dr Sarah Blott
CKCS Health Breeding Programme
Animal Health Trust, Lanwades Park, Kentford, Newmarket, Suffolk CB8 7UU

This can also be done by email: sarah.blott@aht.org.uk

It would be polite to also advise her breeder - not sure if you are in contact or not.



Sounds like you need to keep Rosie very quiet for a bit to allow her back to heal - that would be prudent as disk surgery is not very pleasant :(

At least you can rest easy now - knowing that she doesn't have SM and have a diagnosis, it's much better to know than live with the constant worry of not knowing.

team bella
2nd October 2010, 10:26 PM
Fantastic news Brian, I've scared to look at the thread. I am so delighted that everything has turned out well.:pi*no: Give Rosie a big hug from me, Bella and Jessie.

Kate H
2nd October 2010, 10:45 PM
So glad the news is good, Brian. See - knowing can be the best as well as the worst!!
But do keep her quiet till her present sore back has calmed down, it really pays off in the long run.

Kate, Oliver and Aled

Margaret C
2nd October 2010, 11:48 PM
Dear Brian,

Just back from holiday and started reading this thread with great apprehension as Rosie's symptoms were so very suggestive of SM.

So pleased & relieved that your little girl is okay.:rah:

Give her a big hug from me.

Brian M
3rd October 2010, 08:00 AM
Hello Margaret

And thanks, see what I get up up to when you go away .Nicki I shall email copy scans
as you suggested and Margaret if you email me your email cos stupid me lost all my email addresses I will email copy to you ,and if anybody else wants a copy for info send their email address to me .

brianmurtagh@ntlworld.com

Thanks again all .
sincerely

Rosie and brian

and best wishes to Annie and Ella

*Pauline*
3rd October 2010, 08:31 AM
Oh fantastic news. That scan does look good, I'm no expert at reading scans but the CM on my two is much more obvious. I hope Rosie feels a lot better on the Rimadyl, it's a good anti-inflamatory. So happy for you.

Tania
3rd October 2010, 09:42 AM
Now you can rest easy, I am so pleased she hasn't got sm. Brilliant you were able to get her seen so quickly. Gentle hugs to all the flowercavs :hug:

Sandrac
3rd October 2010, 10:44 AM
:hug:Brian so so pleased that Rosie has not got SM. Great news for you all and you must be so relieved. Thank goodness you got the scan done quickly. Hope Rosie's back is better soon . Take care

Spangly
3rd October 2010, 11:00 AM
Brian, I am so very happy about your news! Been away for a few days and read your post with a heavy heart. I would also say that Spangles` CM looks a lot worse than Rosies`. Sending her lots of love.:lotsaluv:

jasperpaw
3rd October 2010, 05:04 PM
Great news Brian, must be such a relieve. Hope Rosie will be feeling a lot better with a little rest.

Brian M
4th October 2010, 08:47 AM
Hello All

Not a good day yesterday ,soft me took poor Rosie for a gentle walk on lead with the others and before we had gone 50 mtrs she was crying and just sat by me looking up .And at home the wouldn't climb anything and this morning I carried her in from the back and upstairs and gently put her on the bed and she was crying all the time and couldn't settle down in any position so took her downstairs and popped her in her crate .Now at work and left Dawn with strict orders to carry her in and out leave the baby gate on the stairs and have just asked one of the lads here to make me a ramp ,so now on in we will watch her every move ,I am also going to phone Chestergates to see if I can increase her Rimadyl.

I was also thinking does anyone knows of any homeopathic or herbal medication that might help or would they clash with the Rimadyl.:(

Brian M
4th October 2010, 11:15 AM
Hi

Just spoke to Mr Deutschland and asked if I can increase the Rimadyl and his answer was no that he would like to see her when she has pain so I am back off to Chestergates at 3.00 pm today.
As it seems to be a back nerve or disc problem any idea of any questions to ask him pls.

Kate H
4th October 2010, 11:25 AM
Sorry Brian, but crate rest is an absolute must (or rest in a confined space - but if Rosie's used to a crate that is the easiest way of ensuring quiet). You have got to give the muscles time to recover and that means absolute rest. Taking her out to the garden on a lead may in fact do less harm than carrying her, which could pull the muscles if she is held a bit awkwardly. But out to do her business and back straight away is all she should be allowed to do at the moment. Then, when the muscles calm down, you can start giving her a few minutes on-lead walking round the garden and gradually build up the time. You won't need a ramp for a bit yet, because she shouldn't be going anywhere. If she's used to sleeping in your bedroom, take the crate upstairs for her. Backs are delicate structures - you just can't mess around with them or be tempted to cut corners in allowing them time to heal. If Rosie's in pain, she will probably be quite happy to snooze in her crate, realising that it is moving that hurts; if she gets bored, something to chew will help. And as she heals, she will need to have gradually-increasing gentle exercise on her own, with no possibility of the others tempting her to play or jumping on her. This sounds draconian, but it will be worth it in the end when she makes a full recovery.

Kate, Oliver and Aled

Brian M
4th October 2010, 02:38 PM
Hi

Just arrived sitting in reception with Rosie on my knee.

Charlifarley
4th October 2010, 03:45 PM
Good luck hope you can get her problem sorted

Brian M
4th October 2010, 05:20 PM
Hello

Rosie is an enigma .We went through the same physical examination and not a sound from her ,we even went out into the car park so Martin could watch her walk and I was running up and down with Rosie trotting behind and nothing so we are no further .But upon examining her back legs he confirmed that her patella was continually popping in and out though she showed no sign of discomfort nor made any sounds of distress so we agreed that it needs probable surgery shortly in case of osteo arthritis in years to come .We go back on the 15 th and he advised exactly what Kate advised total rest including poss crating for periods and he also gave her Gabapentin tablets 2 x 100 mg daily for pain which to me is a bit puzzling as she seems not to be in any continuous pain more of a sort of occasional stabbing sharp pain.Your comments would be highly valued please as I am at a loss , and do I give her the two tablets together or separate by say 3 hours .

Kate H
4th October 2010, 07:22 PM
I think gabapentin is a pain preventive rather than a pain killer, and builds up a steady level of pain control, so it should help prevent Rosie getting the sharp pain episodes. It can also make some dogs a bit sleepy, which will help her to rest. Oliver has been on the dose recommended for Rosie for his SM and I give them morning and evening, with breakfast and supper. For SM, most people reckon gabapentin doesn't last 12 hours, and 8 hours apart three times a day works better, but 12 hours apart should be OK for Rosie's situation - Martin knows what he's doing!

Isn't it typical of dogs not to display symptoms when you take them to the vet! But good that you've discovered the patella problem, which is relatively easy to correct.

Kate, Oliver and Aled

merello
4th October 2010, 07:57 PM
Hope she's doing better.

Nicki
4th October 2010, 08:13 PM
Sorry to hear that Rosie has problems with her patellas, but I really wouldn't expect that to cause such severe pain.

The Gabapentin will gradually build up, as kate said, it might make her sleepy which will be good to make her rest.

Yes 12 hour intervals between the doses.

It's actually an antiepileptic drug with sedative effects, but has been found to be very effective against nerve pain.

Is she eating and pooing normally? Did they feel her belly? Pancreatitis is always a possibility with severe pain, but you would see some gastric symptoms.


Any problems urinating? Increased frequency, pain on passing urine? Thinking of possibly bladder stones.

Brian M
4th October 2010, 09:22 PM
Hello Nicki

And thank you .I left work at 2.00 pm picked her went straight to Chestergates arrived about 2.35 and went into Martins consultation room about 3.15 and the first thing she did upon entering was have a wee which I apologised for and cleaned up.I must admit neither of us really mentioned it I just thought that Dawn just hadn't taken her out before I picked her up.icon_nwunsureBut your most makes one wonder, gall stones ?His examination literally consisted of poking ,pulling and pressing everywhere and she didn't make a sound .For her tea she had a piece lamb neck weighing exactly 45 gramme with some carrot ,broccoli and cabbage topped off with a teaspoon of goats yogurt and three small whitebait a teaspoon of natural bran and one shredded wheat then on top a vit tablet and omega 3 oil some mobile bones and some Nutro and keepers mix and last but not least one sprout.:) They do all eat every bit even the sprout.Then more supplements before bed and followed by our teeth cleaning regime .

Please don't think I am questioning Martin or anybody all I am trying to do is learn as much as I can to enable me to help Rosie to the best of my ability and by having our resident experts like you Nicki and Kate and Karlin and Nannette and my mates Tupup ,Tania and Pauline all helping and guiding me along it is all a fantastic help and not forgetting our two gentle caring ladies from across the waves Annie and Pamela and the many others I am indebted to all and it proves what a fantastic forum CT is.
She is in a large soft travel crate right by the side of my bed fast asleep and will sleep there now ,I shall carry her down about 10.30 for toilet and the same again at 6.00 in the morning and will dispense her tablets at 6.AM and 6.00 PM daily

If I am doing something wrong pls tell me or if I am missing something out pls tell me.I also wish to say a big thank you to two wonderful educated ladies who I had a good natter to on the phone they are both ex cavalier health club representatives and two people our Cavaliers are so lucky to have ,Madams Margaret Carter and Barbara Reese I dearly thank you both .
Respectfully yours
Brian and Rosie

Ps Nicki is there anything in the homeopathic or herbal supplement range I could consider

Nicki
4th October 2010, 09:38 PM
I think I would try her with a magnetic therapy collar - http://www.vetuk.co.uk/joint-supplements-magnocollar-c-4_385/magnetic-dog-collar-p-2131?zenid=i7qkjatl7vnifqrg6pgevch456

proven to increase the circulation thereby helping with healing.


Homoeopathy - there are remedies for pain relief, also there is a good combination for arthritis and movement - website www.gentletouchremedies.co.uk it's hard without a definite diagnosis though. I would actually suggest seeing a holistic/homoeopathic vet http://www.bahvs.com/findavet.htm

Other alternatives you might want to consider are physical manipulation techniques [now that SM has been ruled out] either a chiropractor or Bowen technique practitioner. http://www.caninebowentechnique.com/ obviously they have to be trained in the treatment of animals.




Gall stones are in the gallbladder - I was thinking more likely bladder stones/crystals. It was the urinating at the surgery that made me think of it, but it could be something connected with her back.


Will keep thinking - she is certainly a bit of a puzzle :(

HollyDolly
4th October 2010, 10:56 PM
Brian I have used these in the past with very good results.

http://www.vetuk.co.uk/joint-supplements-glycoflex-tablets-c-4_181?zenid=i7qkjatl7vnifqrg6pgevch456

Just realised it is the same link as Nicki's but it is the glycoflex tablets I have used

tupup
5th October 2010, 12:27 PM
Hi Bri
Hows little Rosie today? Snoozing peacefully in her soft crate i hope,how do you think she's feeling on her gaberpentin etc? I never saw Ruby sleep more on it for her SM but she's a "lots of naps" kinda girl anyway!

I hope Rosie is more comfortable today,theres nothing worse than when they cant get comfy & cry & look at you its heartbreaking, so i really hope she's having a better day today

Pamela Warrington
5th October 2010, 05:30 PM
Dearest Brian,

I just finished reading all the posts, wow I am so sorry you have been going through so much the past few days. I have not been on the site for a couple of days, my weekends were busy. Brian maybe if you keep a journal to write when the episodes take place, and monitor them closely and write everything down you possibly might see some consistency of when it happens and maybe why. Also just a suggestion did they have her jump off something to see if that might trigger her pain? Just wondering seeing as thats the only way I knew something was up with Isabelle at first. My heart goes out to you, I know it can become frustrating to see Rosie in pain, it can be hard to understand totally the mystery behind why she does not display it when she is being examined. I know they found the whys in the scan, but in the physical examine part when she does not show the symptoms of pain it can become confusing. I am reminded of a funny thing that happened to me my car was making a weird sound and doing something that it was not suppose to, so I take it in to the dealership, but it does not do it, then they look at me like I am crazy. Oh well life as you know it right hee hee. I hope the Lord guides you bringing reassurance of his peace and helps you while you go down this path. I pray that Rosie will be fine, and they will help to determine what is the best healing path to go down for her. Have you thought of ever going to a acupuncturist for Rosie, my doctor has referred me to an excellent one here in my home town if Isabelle ever needs it for future needs. I know that they have done wonders with natural herbs and healing for pets. Take care and God bless!!


Blessings,
Pamela

Nicki
5th October 2010, 06:13 PM
Brian maybe if you keep a journal to write when the episodes take place, and monitor them closely and write everything down you possibly might see some consistency of when it happens and maybe why.

I think that is an excellent idea Pamela.

Brian, there are vets in your area who do acupuncture http://www.natural-animal-health.co.uk/Vets/findvet.php?area=12


I have had it myself for pain relief and it's often very successful - they have a pain relief clinic where they offer acupuncture at Glasgow Vet school.




Pamela, we do hope that Isabelle is doing much better. :flwr:

heather r
5th October 2010, 08:34 PM
Brian; Have been away for a few days so missed your days of anxiety. I'm so happy to hear your good news ( although possible future surgery isn't nice). Keep Rosie as quiet as possible and enjoy your relief.

Heather R

lindylou
5th October 2010, 09:29 PM
so so sorry to hear rosie has a problem. its heartbreaking when they are pooley i will kept you and rosie in my thoughts

Brian M
10th October 2010, 02:28 PM
Hi

Its been almost a week since Rosie has yelped but its so hard leaving her behind when we go out for a walk ,she gets carried up and down everywhere though she gives me strange looks .We go back to Chestergates next Friday at 4.30 and I am really grateful its so close to me also ordered a magnetic collar to see if it helps.

http://www.amazinghealth.co.uk/magnets%20for%20animals.htm

anniemac
14th October 2010, 05:24 PM
Hey brian,

I am catching up and I knew the results and I will email you. I have been thinking of you and rosie.