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Bet
8th October 2010, 11:17 AM
In this week's DOG WORLD'S Cavalier Notes is this comment from the Cavalier Writer,if the Kennel Club want's Breeders to come under it's Wing ,then unnecessary Testing will have to stop.

I just cannot understand this comment,surely the Columnist does not mean that there is unnecessary Testing for SM and MVD for our Cavaliers.

Bet

sins
8th October 2010, 12:11 PM
I saw that comment as well Bet.
I *think* what she means is that testing should be affordable for small breeders who produce an occasional litter and that in the case of scanning,a scheme that requires multiple scans would be prohibitive from a cost basis.
Hopefully the needs of breeders will be met without compromising the integrity or devaluing the effectiveness of a scheme designed to reduce the incidence of illness in the breed.
It's odd though that some breeders see health testing as an obstacle and an inconvenience and others see it as a useful tool and the bare minimum that should be done before producing a litter.
Many breeders still make the mistake of failing to factor in the requirements of the pet buying public into the equation.In the longterm,that may be the rock on which they perish..
Sins

RodRussell
8th October 2010, 02:09 PM
"If the KC wants breeders to come under its wing, then unnecessary testing will have to stop." -- What an unbelievably ignorant statement! The problem is that NECESSARY TESTING -- necessary to preserve the genetic health of the breed -- is not being done by enough breeders. If a Cavalier breeder cannot afford to do the testing, then she should move on to help destroy some other breed.

Margaret C
8th October 2010, 02:23 PM
"If the KC wants breeders to come under its wing, then unnecessary testing will have to stop." -- What an unbelievably ignorant statement! The problem is that NECESSARY TESTING -- necessary to preserve the genetic health of the breed -- is not being done by enough breeders. If a Cavalier breeder cannot afford to do the testing, then she should move on to help destroy some other breed.

Some of them are. A lot of Cavalier breeders are now moving over to Japanese Chins. They too have lots of health issues, but none that are recognised by the breed club or KC.

The meeting about the BVA/KC MRI Scheme yesterday was interesting and informative in more ways than one. The BVA people were visibly amazed at objections put forward by some of the breeders.
I hope to write up my impressions later today & post it on a new thread.

sins
10th October 2010, 10:26 AM
Just to follow on regarding the "Curious comment".
The unnecessary testing referred to was Eye testing,although due to editing which was beyond the control of the writer the comment appeared out of context.
She says that it was the eye scheme she was talking about but the editor had removed her explanation.
I have been told the following, by a long standing breeder with regard to eyes:


In the great scheme of things eyes are the least of our problems. Before we had the KC/BVA Scheme we were advised to have our puppies litter screened, and then tested before they were bred. Unfortunately the KC do not have breed specific schemes and it's a "one size fits all" so now we have to have eyes screened yearly because some breeds like collies have genetic eye problems like PRA which can appear at any age. The two problems in cavaliers are Retinal Dysplasia which is present at birth and Hereditary Cataract which is normally found in young dogs. The only other known problem in cavaliers (in the UK) are ingrowing eyelashes which again can be detected when the dog is very young. It costs 45 to have an eye test, multiply this by four or five and it can be very expensive to have dogs screened annually when the results never change.


Sins

Bet
10th October 2010, 11:11 AM
Just to follow on regarding the "Curious comment".
The unnecessary testing referred to was Eye testing,although due to editing which was beyond the control of the writer the comment appeared out of context.
She says that it was the eye scheme she was talking about but the editor had removed her explanation.
I have been told the following, by a long standing breeder with regard to eyes:


Sins

Curious Comment

Sins, I don't want to get into an argument about this, but would this be same Breeder you have just mentioned ,who is trying to give this explanation on the DW Forum ,why does the Columnist Writer herself not give her reason for saying what she said.

The Columnist said a few weeks ago in her Column in DW ,in her comments about MRI Scanning Cavaliers,that in her opinion ,the Likelihood of Members remaining in the Scheme as it stands is pretty Remote.

I challenged her on the DW Forum to give her reasons for saying this, but there was no answer from her.

Bet

Karlin
10th October 2010, 12:10 PM
"If the KC wants breeders to come under its wing, then unnecessary testing will have to stop." -- What an unbelievably ignorant statement! The problem is that NECESSARY TESTING -- necessary to preserve the genetic health of the breed -- is not being done by enough breeders. If a Cavalier breeder cannot afford to do the testing, then she should move on to help destroy some other breed.

Agree 100%. Whether this was discussing eyes or MRIs or hips or toenails -- the problem is that every single test is always disputed by a significant number (there are still plenty calling breeding for healthy hearts 'a crap shoot' yet funny isn't it, that they don't feel the same about cosmetic factors they choose when aiming for winning show ring dogs... icon_nwunsure), and until recently most were (and many are still!) arguing that MRIs were only ever recommended to make money for screening centres. :rolleyes: Such self-serving idiocy seems to have convinced nearly every Irish breeder, to their ongoing shame -- setting aside they already easily qualify as the nation of cavalier breeders that cares leasts about its breed especially given the large numbers in the breed here: they do almost no testing at all and the MVD protocol is something that barely impinges on their busy show-ring and puppy-selling lives... :mad:.

Bet
14th October 2010, 10:33 AM
Agree 100%. Whether this was discussing eyes or MRIs or hips or toenails -- the problem is that every single test is always disputed by a significant number (there are still plenty calling breeding for healthy hearts 'a crap shoot' yet funny isn't it, that they don't feel the same about cosmetic factors they choose when aiming for winning show ring dogs... icon_nwunsure), and until recently most were (and many are still!) arguing that MRIs were only ever recommended to make money for screening centres. :rolleyes: Such self-serving idiocy seems to have convinced nearly every Irish breeder, to their ongoing shame -- setting aside they already easily qualify as the nation of cavalier breeders that cares leasts about its breed especially given the large numbers in the breed here: they do almost no testing at all and the MVD protocol is something that barely impinges on their busy show-ring and puppy-selling lives... :mad:.


CURIOUS COMMENT

Could I mention that there has been some Venemous Posts on the DOG WORLD FORUM this week about Cavalier Breeders Health Testing their Cavalier Breeding Stock.

The Post from a very Vociferous Cavalier Breeder,really showed me what we Lovers of the Cavalier Breed are up against.

The usual Excuses were being given ,that the Health Problems in Cavalier were due to the Puppy Farmers and BYB's.

Here was my answer to that.

If the Cavalier Buying Public were advised to ask the Cavalier Breeder to see a Health Certificate to Prove that they were Health Testing their Cavalier Breeding Stock ,and to see Proof that the Cavalier Breeder was also following the Breeding Guidelines ,Recommended by the Researchers into the SM and MVD in our Cavaliers,then the Puppy Farmers and BYB'S would be being asked the same Questions.

In the answer I got from this Particular Cavalier Breeder, who came down on me Like a Ton of Bricks, was an Emphatic ,NO.

I just can't understand whether this Cavalier Breeder is Scared maybe that the Cavalier Buying Public will also be asking this Question of Cavalier Club Members.

I know that there are Cavalier Breeders CKCS CLUB Members , who are so keen to Health Test their Cavalier Breeding Stock, but are there some CKCS CLUB Members who are Cavalier Breeders Running Scared to be having this Question put to them by the Cavalier Buying Public.

Bet

Bet
15th October 2010, 04:53 PM
CURIOUS COMMENT

Could I mention that there has been some Venemous Posts on the DOG WORLD FORUM this week about Cavalier Breeders Health Testing their Cavalier Breeding Stock.

The Post from a very Vociferous Cavalier Breeder,really showed me what we Lovers of the Cavalier Breed are up against.

The usual Excuses were being given ,that the Health Problems in Cavalier were due to the Puppy Farmers and BYB's.

Here was my answer to that.

If the Cavalier Buying Public were advised to ask the Cavalier Breeder to see a Health Certificate to Prove that they were Health Testing their Cavalier Breeding Stock ,and to see Proof that the Cavalier Breeder was also following the Breeding Guidelines ,Recommended by the Researchers into the SM and MVD in our Cavaliers,then the Puppy Farmers and BYB'S would be being asked the same Questions.

In the answer I got from this Particular Cavalier Breeder, who came down on me Like a Ton of Bricks, was an Emphatic ,NO.

I just can't understand whether this Cavalier Breeder is Scared maybe that the Cavalier Buying Public will also be asking this Question of Cavalier Club Members.

I know that there are Cavalier Breeders CKCS CLUB Members , who are so keen to Health Test their Cavalier Breeding Stock, but are there some CKCS CLUB Members who are Cavalier Breeders Running Scared to be having this Question put to them by the Cavalier Buying Public.

Bet

CURIOUS COMMENT

I wonder if I could mention once again the Animosity displayed to me by a very prominant Cavalier Breeder on a Public Cavalier Forum ,just because I have dared to mention that I believe that the Cavalier Buying Public should be being made aware to ask to see a Health Certificate to Prove that the Cavalier Breeder is Health Testing their Cavalier Breeding Stock.and also Proof that the Cavalier Breeder is following the Breeding Guideline Recomendations given by the Cavalier Researchers into the SM and MVD in our Cavalier Breed of not Breeding from a Cavalier before 2.5 years of age, and to know about the Health Status of the Grand-Parents at 5.

By her response to my suggestion, I just don't think she is interested .

I have put more on my Blog about what has happened this Past Week.

Bet

Bet.

Teresa
15th October 2010, 05:24 PM
Any chance you could post the link to the Dog Worl Forum, I'd be interested nto have a nose myself!!

Thanks :thmbsup:

sins
15th October 2010, 05:50 PM
http://www.dogworld.co.uk
click on the box to view breed specific content and type in Cavalier King Charles spaniel
*recommendation to wear caustic proof suit and don't spend too long in there.
Venom fumes are quite pungent:shock:
Sins

Teresa
15th October 2010, 08:40 PM
Mmm just thought I'd nose and see what "rubbish" is written there...Might just visit the once!!

Teresa
15th October 2010, 08:42 PM
Thanks Sins :))
Did that but can't see a link to the forum, am I being thick? I am over tired, too much swimming and gym this week, off to bed in a min I think

sins
15th October 2010, 08:49 PM
Sorry, try that link!

http://www.dogworld.co.uk/Breeds/BreedNotes/week-39-Cavaliers-(1)

Sins

Teresa
15th October 2010, 09:07 PM
Had a quick nose!! I'll look properly tomorrow when I'm less tired I think...I have to be up at six tomorrow so off to bed I think!!
Thanks again Sins...x

Bet
16th October 2010, 08:41 AM
http://www.dogworld.co.uk
click on the box to view breed specific content and type in Cavalier King Charles spaniel
*recommendation to wear caustic proof suit and don't spend too long in there.
Venom fumes are quite pungent:shock:
Sins


CAUSTIC COMMENT.


Here is a Giggle for you all.

Sins mentioned the word Caustic.

Well on Thursday, our Sink was smelling a wee Bit, and I always have put some Caustic Soda down it, and did the same.

Then the Fun and Games started .

The Water would'nt run away. SOS to the Plumber yesterday, and through time the Caustic Soda had Solidified, Fleek and the Plumber asked when I had last used it, alarm bells were starting to ring,I told a wee White Lie and said more than a Month ago.

Last night I owned up to Fleek, what I done on Thursday ,he wen't Ballistic,

Still have no Water!!!!!

Bet

sins
16th October 2010, 11:49 AM
http://www.forumsextreme.com/images/sHa_rofl4.gifThere are some things men do not need to know,even if it's in the interests of health and safety:badgrin:
Still, hope you have running water soon.
In the meantime,you'd better put this on before going back onto Dogworld!
http://www.forumsextreme.com/images/sSW_darthvader.gif
Sins

Bet
16th October 2010, 12:40 PM
http://www.forumsextreme.com/images/sHa_rofl4.gifThere are some things men do not need to know,even if it's in the interests of health and safety:badgrin:
Still, hope you have running water soon.
In the meantime,you'd better put this on before going back onto Dogworld!
http://www.forumsextreme.com/images/sSW_darthvader.gif
Sins


CURIOUS COMMENT.

I don't know about the others who have been following this Saga in the DW Forum, but for me, I have learned a lot about some Cavalier Breeders and now realize ,it will be by trying to get across to the Cavalier Buying Public ,only to buy a Cavalier from a Cavalier Breeder who Health Tests and Follows the Recommendations for the Breeding Guidelines from the SM and MVD Researchers,that the Cavalier Breed will have a Future. This way the Puppy Farmers and BYB's, will also become involved .

And Sins , No we still have no Water, but I don't think I'm in Danger of my Life now,but it was sure Touch and Go.!!!!

Bet

RodRussell
16th October 2010, 03:08 PM
Who really bothers to read all of that back-and-forth among the comments on Dog World? The breeders there are intent upon smearing those who advocate health testing and following genetic health breeding protocols.

A valuable spin-off from the commentary is that you are better able to identify those breeders who are hostile to following the protocols, so you can strike them from your list of breeders if you are looking for a Cavalier puppy.

Cathy Moon
16th October 2010, 03:52 PM
A valuable spin-off from the commentary is that you are better able to identify those breeders who are hostile to following the protocols, so you can strike them from your list of breeders if you are looking for a Cavalier puppy.
Absolutely - this sort of thing has been going on for years and is a useful tool.

Bet
16th October 2010, 04:25 PM
Absolutely - this sort of thing has been going on for years and is a useful tool.


CURIOUS COMMENT


I have just had a Sickening Rant made against me on the DOG WORLD FORUM by a CKCS COMMITTEE CLUB MEMBER.

If I could give you what I believe could maybe be the Back-Ground Reason to all the Abusive Comments I have been receiving lately.

In a Cavalier Forum on the Internet, a Newly Elected Member of the CKCS CLUB COMMITTEE questioned My State Of Mind.I wrote to the CKCS CLUB Committee with a Complaint about this. It was discussed at the last CKCS CLUB COMMITTEE ,as to whether I would receive a written Apology from the CKCS CLUB Committee about the Accusation made against me by this Committee Member.

Also I had a Phone Call from the Chair -Person of the CKCS CLUB saying that she had forbidden any CKCS Committee Member to make any Personal Comments about any-body on Cavalier Forums on the Internet in the future.

This apparently has been ignored by a CKCS CLUB COMMITTEE MEMBER in his Abusive Comments to me a short while ago.

I will let you decide whether two and two make four for the Venemous Attacks being made against me.

This is ,I believe because I have dared to mention the Two Serious Health Problems in our Cavaliers ,SM and MVD.

I just wonder, am I beginning to hit a Raw Nerve.

Bet

Teresa
16th October 2010, 08:54 PM
I so agree with the last two comments!! Also Sins, loving the Darth Vader smiley!!!! Best laugh I've had all week :rotfl:

Brian M
16th October 2010, 09:12 PM
Hi Bet

I am more than happy to post on DW in support of you Bet but to be honest you dont need it you are hitting them where it hurts so carry on Corporal Jones give em some cold steel .cl*p
Rock on Bet.b*n*n*

Bet
17th October 2010, 09:57 AM
Hi Bet

I am more than happy to post on DW in support of you Bet but to be honest you dont need it you are hitting them where it hurts so carry on Corporal Jones give em some cold steel .cl*p
Rock on Bet.b*n*n*


CURIOUS COMMENT

Thanks for that ,Brian, I for sure feel like I am being a Female Cpl Jones at the moment, but it is all being worth while,some-things are now coming to light, it let's us Cavalier Lovers know where we stand with some of the Cavalier Breeders who have not done them-selves any Favours.

If I could possibly mention this ,the Comment made by the Cavalier Breed Coluninist in DW about the Unnecessary Health Testingfor our Cavaliers recently in DW, she had also made a Statement in her Cavalier Breed Column in Dog World,27-7 -10,that in her Opinion, when she was commenting about the MRI SCANNING SCHEME for our Cavaliers, ,the Likelihood of Members Remaining in the Scheme as it Stands is Pretty Remote.

Bet
17th October 2010, 10:14 AM
CURIOUS COMMENT

Thanks for that ,Brian, I for sure feel like I am being a Female Cpl Jones at the moment, but it is all being worth while,some-things are now coming to light, it let's us Cavalier Lovers know where we stand with some of the Cavalier Breeders who have not done them-selves any Favours.

If I could possibly mention this ,the Comment made by the Cavalier Breed Coluninist in DW about the Unnecessary Health Testingfor our Cavaliers recently in DW, she had also made a Statement in her Cavalier Breed Column in Dog World,27-7 -10,that in her Opinion, when she was commenting about the MRI SCANNING SCHEME for our Cavaliers, ,the Likelihood of Members Remaining in the Scheme as it Stands is Pretty Remote.

Sorry about this pressed a wrong key before I had finished.!!!!

I asked her twice on the DW Forum what did she mean by this Statement ,what was wrong with the MRI Scanning Scheme ,but her silence was Deafening.

Also I am known as well as Bet Hargreaves ,but also Cavalier Lover on the Dog World Forum. I had mentioned here yesterday about a CKCS CLUB COMMITTEE having a Rant at me on that Forum ,because he wanted the people to know that I am not qualified to be making the Statements that I am making about the Health Problems in our Cavaliers,I think because of the many Tears I have had through some of our Cherished dying at such a young age because of MVD, I am quite qualifed to let the Cavalier Buying Public be made aware ,to always ask to see a Health Certificate as Proof that they are Health Testing their Cavalier Breeding Stock, and to Prove that they are following the Breeding Guideline Recommendations from the CKCS CLUB and the Researchers.

Bet

Bet
17th October 2010, 12:21 PM
Sorry about this pressed a wrong key before I had finished.!!!!

I asked her twice on the DW Forum what did she mean by this Statement ,what was wrong with the MRI Scanning Scheme ,but her silence was Deafening.

Also I am known as well as Bet Hargreaves ,but also Cavalier Lover on the Dog World Forum. I had mentioned here yesterday about a CKCS CLUB COMMITTEE having a Rant at me on that Forum ,because he wanted the people to know that I am not qualified to be making the Statements that I am making about the Health Problems in our Cavaliers,I think because of the many Tears I have had through some of our Cherished dying at such a young age because of MVD, I am quite qualifed to let the Cavalier Buying Public be made aware ,to always ask to see a Health Certificate as Proof that they are Health Testing their Cavalier Breeding Stock, and to Prove that they are following the Breeding Guideline Recommendations from the CKCS CLUB and the Researchers.

Bet

CURIOUS COMMENT.

I am sorry to keep going on about this again, but Norma Inglis has mentioned in her Chatterbox Forum to-day ,that most of the Cavaliers' Health Problems are due to the Puppy Farmers and BYB's.Does she not understand that this is what a number of us are trying to get across to the Cavalier Buying Public ,only buy a Cavalier from a Cavalier Breeder who will show as Proof a Health Certificate that their Cavalier Breeding Stock is being Health Tested .and Proof that the Cavalier Breeding Guideline Recommendations from both the CKCS CLUB and the Researchers into SM and MVD are being followed.

This way the Puppy Farmers and BYB's will be being asked the same Questions.

Bet

sins
17th October 2010, 01:27 PM
Seriously Bet,anyone with a shred of dignity would withdraw from that appalling cyberbrawl on Dogworld comments.
I've by now lost count of the potentially litigious comments made by cavalier breeders against each other.:shock:
The reputation of the breed is far more likely to be destroyed by that kind of behaviour than by comments(fair or unjust) from pet owners.
Sins

Karlin
17th October 2010, 01:43 PM
Yes this is a key point -- the importance of buying registered puppies from active kennel/cavalier club breeders who can produce and discuss the relevant health certs is exactly what the puppy buyer guides say on this site and many others that are concerned about HEALTH.

The puppy farm issue is the favourite red herring of certain club members. As neurologists have publicly confirmed, there is NO DIFFERENCE in the rate of SM-affected dogs they see in registered dogs, club breeder dogs, and BYB/puppy farm dogs. I have spoken to Geoff Skerrit, Dominic Marino and Clare Rusbridge on this issue and they all agree on the point. Some have mentioned it at the last two SM health events that sadly, so few club breeders actually attended.

On MVD: the club's own cardiologist has pointed out that the UK Club has produced NO improvement in heart results in 17 years and he expressed frustration that the club for a long time didn't even recommend the MVD protocol much less make cardiologist testing (rather than inferior level vet testing) a requirement for breeding. The KC has shown no interest in setting a minimum standard like this either. The club poor heart results sadly still parallel what cardiologists and vets say they see from puppy farm and BYB cavaliers. Unfortunately the tiny handful of club breeders who do actually follow the MVD protocol and have improved heart health over time, are not enough to pull up the overall dismal record of CLUB BREEDERS AS CONFIRMED BY THEIR OWN CLUB CARDIOLOGIST SIMON SWIFT IN A PUBLIC STATEMENT ON THE MATTER. But then again, few club breeders actually heard this, as they were all out in the lobby gossiping over coffee rather than attending his session at last year's AGM, a criticism made by their own club chairwoman and posted prominently to the homepage of their website by her at the time. Perhaps that contributes to some continuing breeder ignorance on this issue.

Maybe breeders like Norma will attend one of these health events some day :rolleyes:, or directly approach Simon Swift or one of the neurologists, and then ask this question of the experts actually doing the scanning and auscultations to hear the answer first hand.


If you are buying a puppy, of course absolutely avoid BYBs and puppy farms for all sorts of ethical and animal welfare reasons including health issues -- but also avoid club breeders who cannot show you proper heart and MRI certs, hip scores, eye tests and patella tests. Opt for a kennel club/cavalier club breeder that CAN show you they are doing relevant tests and the results you wish to see. The puppy buyer guides posted in the righthand column of the homepage all explain how to find such breeders, what to look for and what to ask. :thmbsup: Unfortunately at this time the effort to check that a breeder actually breeds for health must all come from the puppy buyer.

Bet
17th October 2010, 05:09 PM
Yes this is a key point -- the importance of buying registered puppies from active kennel/cavalier club breeders who can produce and discuss the relevant health certs is exactly what the puppy buyer guides say on this site and many others that are concerned about HEALTH.

The puppy farm issue is the favourite red herring of certain club members. As neurologists have publicly confirmed, there is NO DIFFERENCE in the rate of SM-affected dogs they see in registered dogs, club breeder dogs, and BYB/puppy farm dogs. I have spoken to Geoff Skerrit, Dominic Marino and Clare Rusbridge on this issue and they all agree on the point. Some have mentioned it at the last two SM health events that sadly, so few club breeders actually attended.

On MVD: the club's own cardiologist has pointed out that the UK Club has produced NO improvement in heart results in 17 years and he expressed frustration that the club for a long time didn't even recommend the MVD protocol much less make cardiologist testing (rather than inferior level vet testing) a requirement for breeding. The KC has shown no interest in setting a minimum standard like this either. The club poor heart results sadly still parallel what cardiologists and vets say they see from puppy farm and BYB cavaliers. Unfortunately the tiny handful of club breeders who do actually follow the MVD protocol and have improved heart health over time, are not enough to pull up the overall dismal record of CLUB BREEDERS AS CONFIRMED BY THEIR OWN CLUB CARDIOLOGIST SIMON SWIFT IN A PUBLIC STATEMENT ON THE MATTER. But then again, few club breeders actually heard this, as they were all out in the lobby gossiping over coffee rather than attending his session at last year's AGM, a criticism made by their own club chairwoman and posted prominently to the homepage of their website by her at the time. Perhaps that contributes to some continuing breeder ignorance on this issue.

Maybe breeders like Norma will attend one of these health events some day :rolleyes:, or directly approach Simon Swift or one of the neurologists, and then ask this question of the experts actually doing the scanning and auscultations to hear the answer first hand.


If you are buying a puppy, of course absolutely avoid BYBs and puppy farms for all sorts of ethical and animal welfare reasons including health issues -- but also avoid club breeders who cannot show you proper heart and MRI certs, hip scores, eye tests and patella tests. Opt for a kennel club/cavalier club breeder that CAN show you they are doing relevant tests and the results you wish to see. The puppy buyer guides posted in the righthand column of the homepage all explain how to find such breeders, what to look for and what to ask. :thmbsup: Unfortunately at this time the effort to check that a breeder actually breeds for health must all come from the puppy buyer.



CURIOUS COMMENT

Thank-you Karlin for your Post.

You have explained it so much better than I ever could about how the Cavalier Buying Public have such a big part to Play in trying to get our Cavaliers Healthier, Longer Lives.

I am starting to wonder about the comments some Prominent Cavalier Breeders are making about the suggestion that the Cavalier Buying Public be made aware to always ask to see a Health Certificate from the Cavalier Breeder ,if they are Health Testing and following the Breeding Guideline Recommendations for their Cavalier Breeding Stock ,and this would include the Puppy Farm Breeders and BYB'S as well,do they not wan't this to happen in-case some of the Cavalier Show Breeders will also be being asked this question.

Surely not !!!

Is there a Quote from Shakespear that might apply here.?

Me Thinks Thou Doth Protest Too Much.

Bet







This is such an important message to get across to

Bet
18th October 2010, 02:33 PM
CURIOUS COMMENT

Thank-you Karlin for your Post.

You have explained it so much better than I ever could about how the Cavalier Buying Public have such a big part to Play in trying to get our Cavaliers Healthier, Longer Lives.

I am starting to wonder about the comments some Prominent Cavalier Breeders are making about the suggestion that the Cavalier Buying Public be made aware to always ask to see a Health Certificate from the Cavalier Breeder ,if they are Health Testing and following the Breeding Guideline Recommendations for their Cavalier Breeding Stock ,and this would include the Puppy Farm Breeders and BYB'S as well,do they not wan't this to happen in-case some of the Cavalier Show Breeders will also be being asked this question.

Surely not !!!

Is there a Quote from Shakespear that might apply here.?

Me Thinks Thou Doth Protest Too Much.

Bet







This is such an important message to get across to


Curious Comment.

So now we know.

Such an Arrogant Comment has just been Posted on the DW Forum ,I just had to mention it.

We do not need the Researchers who are Researching the SM and MVD Problems in our Breed, that we are suffering from Hero Worship when we listen to those Researchers who are giving advice about those Health Problems.

The Owners of Cavaliers with SM and MVD should be taking the advice from some of the Cavalier Breeders how to get the answer to those Two Health Problems.

I suppose this Vociferous Cavalier Breeder will also have the Arrogance to feel she is capable of finding the Genes causing SM and MVD in our Cavalier Breed.

Bet

Karlin
18th October 2010, 03:39 PM
Wonder if that comment includes the UK breeders, some of them on those other forums, who refuse to return calls and emails from their puppy buyers who have ended up with SM dogs? Who told some of them not to bother scanning? Who recommended they buy a puppy from an underaged, unscanned, non-heart-tested sire and unscanned, non-heart-tested dam simply because 'the line was a good one' and the seller was a friend? The ones who cover up the dogs of their own breeding that have SM, some of which they then sell on for breeding overseas? Who claim the only dog they have ever had with SM was 'bought in' when actually, it was 'bought in' from someone who used their sire to father that dog? I know a few of those ones read this board... :rolleyes: I am sure puppy buyers cannot wait to rush to get help from these wonderful ladies and gentleman rather than neurologists and cardiologists...

Bet
19th October 2010, 09:50 AM
Wonder if that comment includes the UK breeders, some of them on those other forums, who refuse to return calls and emails from their puppy buyers who have ended up with SM dogs? Who told some of them not to bother scanning? Who recommended they buy a puppy from an underaged, unscanned, non-heart-tested sire and unscanned, non-heart-tested dam simply because 'the line was a good one' and the seller was a friend? The ones who cover up the dogs of their own breeding that have SM, some of which they then sell on for breeding overseas? Who claim the only dog they have ever had with SM was 'bought in' when actually, it was 'bought in' from someone who used their sire to father that dog? I know a few of those ones read this board... :rolleyes: I am sure puppy buyers cannot wait to rush to get help from these wonderful ladies and gentleman rather than neurologists and cardiologists...

Curious Comment,

What an EYE OPENER ,Karlin.

If I could just mention again since I have been slated by once more by Norma Inglis on a Forum about a Comment I made about an Article she wrote about Cavalier Puppy Farmers and BYB's in her Chatterbox.

What she and some others can't or won't understand , that when they keep giving the Cavalier Registrations from those Establishments as against so few Cavalier Registrations from CKCS CLUB Members, that if All Cavalier Breeders were asked by the Cavalier Buying Public ,to Provide Proof that they are Health Testing and following the Breeding Line Recommendations from the CKCS CLUB and the Cavalier Researchers into SM and MVD, then those Puppy Farmers and BYB's would also have to being be asked to Provide the same Evidence and if they could'nt do this not to buy a Cavalier from them, would this not be the quickest way to put those Puppy Farmers out of Business ,or do some Cavalier Breeders not want this Question asked from them if they are members of the Cavalier Club in-case they are not Health Testing and Following the Breeding Guideline Recommendations.

Bet

Margaret C
19th October 2010, 10:45 PM
Wonder if that comment includes the UK breeders, some of them on those other forums, who refuse to return calls and emails from their puppy buyers who have ended up with SM dogs? Who told some of them not to bother scanning? Who recommended they buy a puppy from an underaged, unscanned, non-heart-tested sire and unscanned, non-heart-tested dam simply because 'the line was a good one' and the seller was a friend? The ones who cover up the dogs of their own breeding that have SM, some of which they then sell on for breeding overseas? Who claim the only dog they have ever had with SM was 'bought in' when actually, it was 'bought in' from someone who used their sire to father that dog? I know a few of those ones read this board... :rolleyes: I am sure puppy buyers cannot wait to rush to get help from these wonderful ladies and gentleman rather than neurologists and cardiologists...

That would include the 'experienced breeder' who is openly gloating on the Dog world comments about the fact that our little cavalier, Faith, failed to conceive when recently mated.

She is delighted that a Grade A to Grade A*( scanned clear over 5 years old ) mating failed.
A breeding that has just been shown to give a better than 75% chance of producing more Grade A cavaliers

This is a breeder that frequently claims she is a "Guardian of the Breed"

Her fellow breeders must feel very proud of their spokesperson.

Jay
20th October 2010, 02:35 AM
That would include the 'experienced breeder' who is openly gloating on the Dog world comments about the fact that our little cavalier, Faith, failed to conceive when recently mated.

She is delighted that a Grade A to Grade A*( scanned clear over 5 years old ) mating failed.
A breeding that has just been shown to give a better than 75% chance of producing more Grade A cavaliers

This is a breeder that frequently claims she is a "Guardian of the Breed"

Her fellow breeders must feel very proud of their spokesperson.

When I read that comment from that "experienced breeder", my first thought was what a shallow and juvenile person that person must be. Shame on her. What a totally inappropriate thing to say.

J.

Bet
20th October 2010, 09:22 AM
When I read that comment from that "experienced breeder", my first thought was what a shallow and juvenile person that person must be. Shame on her. What a totally inappropriate thing to say.

J.


CURIOUS COMMENT

I always knew that if she was Given Enough Rope She Would Hang Her-Self as the saying goes.

Unfortunately her Small Merrie Band just won't understand the Damage she is going to the Cavalier Breed.

They won't accept that the Genes for SM and MVD have got to be found ,then the Cavalier Carriers for those Diseases will also be found.

In that way ,the Cavalier Breed will have the chance of a Future.

It is so Tragic that they are so ignorant ,that it can't be got through to them about the times we are now Living in.

I just feel that this why there is no improvement in the Cavaliers' MVD Problem ,there are now so many Cavalier Carriers of MVD around.

If those certain few Cavalier Breeders can't realize this and stop their Childish ,Petty Squabbles about the SM Problem in Cavaliers ,then SM will go the same way as the MVD Problem in our Breed.

I do so hope that the Cavalier Buying Public will realize that it is the Researchers they have to listen to and to take their Advice about the SM and MVD Problems in Cavaliers , not a few Cavalier Breeders who are still living in the 20th Century and think the know Best about how to cure the SM and MVD problems in our Beloved Cavaliers.

Bet

RodRussell
20th October 2010, 01:54 PM
Wow! I guess a documented threat of an ethics charge can really help some club members to start thinking a little more clearly. Hiding behind phony monikers on a comment list -- even when their identities are obvious -- is like road rage. And in this case it caused the writer(s) to snowball totally out of control. They must have thought they were so smart as to know everything about that breeding, even things the breeder didn't know.

Karlin
20th October 2010, 02:04 PM
even when their identities are obvious

So true. Given how many club breeders are aware of these 'anonymous coward' true identities, I would think they must find it interesting to see what this woman, for example, is truly like behind the mask she sometimes portrays to pet owners and other breeders. :rolleyes: I would think club breeders would also be quite alarmed at these vicious rants and must only feel relieved she is not a public spokesperson on issues. Such posts as have appeared in that particular thread do not do breeders any credit and certainly damage their image further. It is funny though how some of these people in their real identities are quick to threaten lawsuits over any comment made about them yet make clearly libellous and untrue statements while hiding in their anonymous coward mode.

Maybe they don't realise that in a libel case their true identities would be revealed leaving them open to considerable damages and high legal costs. 'Anonymity' is not a defense for libel (or idiocy) and confirming actual identities online is fairly easy through the publications and ISPs involved once there is a court request. UK defamation cases tend to reward very high damages. Having the posts removed after the fact of posting makes no difference -- they have been recorded by many individuals and also are in the server records of the publications and their hosting services. Removing them may however get the publication off the hook for defamation.

Bet
20th October 2010, 03:39 PM
So true. Given how many club breeders are aware of these 'anonymous coward' true identities, I would think they must find it interesting to see what this woman, for example, is truly like behind the mask she sometimes portrays to pet owners and other breeders. :rolleyes: I would think club breeders would also be quite alarmed at these vicious rants and must only feel relieved she is not a public spokesperson on issues. Such posts as have appeared in that particular thread do not do breeders any credit and certainly damage their image further. It is funny though how some of these people in their real identities are quick to threaten lawsuits over any comment made about them yet make clearly libellous and untrue statements while hiding in their anonymous coward mode.

Maybe they don't realise that in a libel case their true identities would be revealed leaving them open to considerable damages and high legal costs. 'Anonymity' is not a defense for libel (or idiocy) and confirming actual identities online is fairly easy through the publications and ISPs involved once there is a court request. UK defamation cases tend to reward very high damages. Having the posts removed after the fact of posting makes no difference -- they have been recorded by many individuals and also are in the server records of the publications and their hosting services. Removing them may however get the publication off the hook for defamation.


CURIOUS COMMENT


I do wonder if what had been written in a Dog Magazine a few Months ago applies to what has been happening in the Cavalier Breed recently with some of the Posts on the DW Forum.

The Article mentioned that in Shallow World of Dog Exhibition there is always the Breed Mafia.

Usually a Group of Elderly Women (with the Occasional Male) that is Steadfast in it's View even when Wrong,they are Self Proclaimed Experts who claim

WE ARE THE BREED ,THERE IS NOTHING ANY-ONE CAN TEACH US ABOUT THIS BREED .

Does this sound Familiar.

What Fanciful Nonsense we have been subjected to by a certain few Cavalier Breeders, all I can say is if you have not got a Breeding Policy for SM ,then for goodness sake don't attack the Breeding Policy that is being given by the Researchers into the SM and MVD Problems in Cavaliers.

If those certain Few Cavalier Breeders cannot come up with a Policy for tackling SM and MVD in the Cavalier Breed ,then they are Completely Irrelevant for Cavaliers.

Bet

Margaret C
20th October 2010, 05:05 PM
Wow! I guess a documented threat of an ethics charge can really help some club members to start thinking a little more clearly. Hiding behind phony monikers on a comment list -- even when their identities are obvious -- is like road rage. And in this case it caused the writer(s) to snowball totally out of control. They must have thought they were so smart as to know everything about that breeding, even things the breeder didn't know.

The whole thing has now been removed but 'Road Rage Ronnie' did post a retraction, which I will take as an apology and as an acknowledgement she deliberately lied.

My blog on the KC/BVA Scheme has been viewed nearly 600 times, so hopefully some of those reading the Dog World comments checked out the figures and the important points made at the seminar.

Karlin
20th October 2010, 06:01 PM
so hopefully some of those reading the Dog World comments checked out the figures and the important points made at the seminar.

Getting this information out to be discussed is so important and helpful so thanks to those who took notes and then took the time to write them up for all to read as there is great interest on both breeder and pet owner sides.

There are a lot of people who can't or won't attend events but are hungry for information. Too often the information that is then produced from people who cannot quite remember details or who sometimes seem to deliberately mislead, is incorrect and distorted and discussions erupt and assumptions made about things that were never even said. As some breeders who subsequently wanted more detail admitted, they took no notes at all or only sketchy ones. Maybe in future clubs might appoint a health liaison to take 'official' notes that could be verified with the researchers/presenters and the formal bodies like the KC/BVA, then made available online to club members?

It is good that you had such detail Margaret, and that Tania had good notes too and that some responsible folks went and just asked the people who gave the presentations if they could clarify detail. :thmbsup:

It seems that researchers were constrained from either giving handouts of a scheme not yet finalised by the KC/BVA, or giving out copies of research posters or charts of results from papers not yet peer reviewed. Simply asking the researchers involved got an explanation, but instead some didn't contact researchers and clarify their questions and instead assumed there were snubs or people ignoring their requests :rolleyes:. And then some people are saying it is the researchers who don't take time to talk to breeders!! :rolleyes: It would seem just from the number of regular seminars given by researchers for the breeder community that this is not the case anyway; far from it. If more attended the seminars then more would have the chance to ask questions directly and information would not have to pass through one or two people before getting disseminated, which increases the chances of errors. Or again -- if someone took official notes, this would help resolve confusion on issues or prevent confusion in the first place :).

Jay
21st October 2010, 02:03 AM
Just a bit off topic, but I belong to a general dog forum which has a huge following, (usually at least 1200 guests and members viewing at the same time). This forum is composed of all kinds of dog owners, owners of mixed breeds, purebreds, pet owners, breeders, dogs who are couch potatoes, dogs who are athletes....if it involves canines, you will find it on this particular forum. Twice in two days in two separate threads, the health issues of Cavaliers has been mentioned. I can't remember any other breed being singled out for health issues before in this forum. So if breeders are thinking that the general public isn't paying attention to the health status of Cavaliers as a breed, guess what....they are.
J.

Bet
21st October 2010, 09:57 AM
Just a bit off topic, but I belong to a general dog forum which has a huge following, (usually at least 1200 guests and members viewing at the same time). This forum is composed of all kinds of dog owners, owners of mixed breeds, purebreds, pet owners, breeders, dogs who are couch potatoes, dogs who are athletes....if it involves canines, you will find it on this particular forum. Twice in two days in two separate threads, the health issues of Cavaliers has been mentioned. I can't remember any other breed being singled out for health issues before in this forum. So if breeders are thinking that the general public isn't paying attention to the health status of Cavaliers as a breed, guess what....they are.
J.

CURIOUS COMMENT

Thanks Jay for this .

I really do believe that the Health Problems in our Cavaliers has got to be being put across to the Cavalier Buying Public ,so that they will be made aware before buying a Cavalier ,to ask to see a Health Certificate and Proof that the Cavalier Breeder is following the Breeding Guideline Recommendations for SM and MVD given by the Researchers.

Sadly , and I do have to mention her name, Norma Inglis has just said in a Post on a Cavalier Forum, that in the DOG WORLD FORUM ,it was a Debacle ,that it was a War of Words.

Why cannot she under-stand that us True Lovers of our Cavalier Breed were only saying what should have been said a few years ago, that the Cavalier Breed is in a Mess due to their SM and MVD Problems.

That the Cavalier Buying Public should ask to see Proof that the Cavalier Breeder is Health Testing their Cavalier Breeding Stock.

She further claims that it was a Sorry Episode.

What an unfortunate Phrase to use, when some of us are trying to give the Cavalier Breed the chance of a Healthier, Longer Life.

I think what has come out of some of the Posts ,is that some Cavalier Breeders would do any-thing to try and stop the Ill Health of Cavaliers being discussed.

I think it is more important than ever that the Cavalier Buying Public is made aware about those Two Serious Health Problems in Cavaliers because of the Money Problems some of them could be having now because of the State of the Economy in our Country,that the Medication for Cavaliers can cost quite a bit of Money.

This surely must be all the more reason for any-body buying a Cavalier ,is the advice ,only Buy a Cavalier from a Cavalier Breeder who can Give Proof that they are Health Testing and Following the Breeding Guideline Recommendations for their Cavalier Breeding Stock.

We know that this will not Guarantee that the Cavalier will have no Health Problems in their Life-time ,but at least the Cavalier Buyer will know that the Cavalier Breeder cares enough about the Future of the Cavalier Breed and is trying their best to give Cavaliers a Future.

Bet

RodRussell
21st October 2010, 02:56 PM
...Sadly , and I do have to mention her name, Norma Inglis has just said in a Post on a Cavalier Forum, that in the DOG WORLD FORUM ,it was a Debacle ,that it was a War of Words.

... She further claims that it was a Sorry Episode. ...

Bet, could you be more specific? Which Cavalier Forum? Where is it?

Bet
21st October 2010, 05:42 PM
Bet, could you be more specific? Which Cavalier Forum? Where is it?


CURIOUS COMMENT

Rod ,It's the Cavalier Chat Forum

The Thread ,Dog World Debacle

Bet

Bet
22nd October 2010, 11:20 AM
CURIOUS COMMENT

Rod ,It's the Cavalier Chat Forum

The Thread ,Dog World Debacle

Bet


CURIOUS COMMENT.

Just received a Letter this morning ( at least it was'nt Anonymous this time) from an Irate Cavalier Breeder, why can't some Cavalier Breeders not understand that what I and others are saying about our Cavaliers ,is at the moment ,the Cavalier Buying Public have to be being made aware about the Seriousness of the SM and MVD Problems afflicting the Cavalier Breed, and ask to see Proof that the Cavalier Breeder is Health Testing and following the Breeding Guideline Recommendations that have been given by the Researchers and the CKCS CLUB.

If only those few Cavalier Breeders would stop behaving in such a Childish ,Petty Way, stop Picking Holes in every-thing the Researchers are trying to do, give those Researchers all the Help they are asking for with their Research Work, and those Cavalier Breeders be doing something Positive to help our Beloved Breed, instead of all this Griping and finding Fault with every Suggestion that is being made to help the Health Problems of SM and MVD in the Breed.

Is it because some Cavalier Breeders are now getting concerned that there might be being Problems discovered in their Breeding Lines ,and they don't want to co-operate with the Researchers, that it was OK when some Cavalier Breeders thought that there was no chance of Those Cavalier Health Problems ever being found out about in their Breeding Programs, but now the Research is maybe getting too close for Comfort for some of those Cavalier Breeders.

Food For Thought!!!

Bet

Bet
24th October 2010, 10:14 AM
CURIOUS COMMENT.

Just received a Letter this morning ( at least it was'nt Anonymous this time) from an Irate Cavalier Breeder, why can't some Cavalier Breeders not understand that what I and others are saying about our Cavaliers ,is at the moment ,the Cavalier Buying Public have to be being made aware about the Seriousness of the SM and MVD Problems afflicting the Cavalier Breed, and ask to see Proof that the Cavalier Breeder is Health Testing and following the Breeding Guideline Recommendations that have been given by the Researchers and the CKCS CLUB.

If only those few Cavalier Breeders would stop behaving in such a Childish ,Petty Way, stop Picking Holes in every-thing the Researchers are trying to do, give those Researchers all the Help they are asking for with their Research Work, and those Cavalier Breeders be doing something Positive to help our Beloved Breed, instead of all this Griping and finding Fault with every Suggestion that is being made to help the Health Problems of SM and MVD in the Breed.

Is it because some Cavalier Breeders are now getting concerned that there might be being Problems discovered in their Breeding Lines ,and they don't want to co-operate with the Researchers, that it was OK when some Cavalier Breeders thought that there was no chance of Those Cavalier Health Problems ever being found out about in their Breeding Programs, but now the Research is maybe getting too close for Comfort for some of those Cavalier Breeders.

Food For Thought!!!

Bet


CURIOUS COMMENT

I was'nt going to be adding anymore to this Thread , after reading about Scooby on the List ,it brought everything back to me about the Heart -Ache we had with Sweep who died at 7 ,Cindy Lu ,8 ,Shari , 8(named after the Race Horse Sharistani) , Ailsa 7, whose wee Head had to be held up by Fleek so that she was able to Breathe on her last journey to our Vet.

All died from MVD

What this is leading up to is the Effrontary of a Cavalier Breeder mentioning that the Discussion on the DOG WORLD FORUM was a Debacle.

Are some Cavalier Breeders still hoping that those Two Serious Health problems in our Cavalier Breed MVD and SM will be kept Hidden from the Cavalier Buying Public

That some of us Lovers of Cavaliers feel that it is only by Cavalier Breeders Health Testing and following the Breeding Guideline Recommendations for MVD and SM given from the CKCS CLUB and the Researchers , the Cavalier Buying Public ask to see Proof that this being done, that the Health in Cavaliers might improve, till the Genes and Carriers for those Diseases are found.

Also if Puppy Farmers were being ask the same Question ,they might not be long in Business

Finally if I could mention what was said by a Previous CKCS CLUB Chair-Person.

"There are many Members who are still not Prepared to Health Check their Breeding Stock , and of those who do ,it would appear that many would not Hesitate to Breed from Affected Animals "

Bet