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Bet
25th October 2010, 11:36 AM
Just heard that one of the Researchers at the BVA /KC SM Seminar ,Dr R .Dennis,mentioned as an Observation that Cavaliers with Longer Noses seem to have less SM Severe Symptoms.

Could this Link in with many of To-days' Cavaliers having Shorter Noses and Deeper Stops than the Cavaliers of Earlier Years.

This look To-day has given many Cavaliers what is termed ,The Pretty Look,even the Male Cavaliers as well as the Cavalier Bitches.

Bet

Bet
25th October 2010, 01:51 PM
Just heard that one of the Researchers at the BVA /KC SM Seminar ,Dr R .Dennis,mentioned as an Observation that Cavaliers with Longer Noses seem to have less SM Severe Symptoms.

Could this Link in with many of To-days' Cavaliers having Shorter Noses and Deeper Stops than the Cavaliers of Earlier Years.

This look To-day has given many Cavaliers what is termed ,The Pretty Look,even the Male Cavaliers as well as the Cavalier Bitches.

Bet

I have added this to this Thread

It has just appeared on the CKCS CLUB WEB SITE.

www.thecavalierclub.co.uk

It is Notes from the BVA/KC CMSM Scheme Seminar held on the 7th October 2010

RodRussell
25th October 2010, 02:20 PM
Bet is Dr. Dennis' comment about "Cavaliers with Longer Noses seem to have less SM Severe Symptoms" supposed to be contained in that article on the club's website? I can't find the comment there.

Tania
25th October 2010, 02:44 PM
I was at the meeting. Dr. Ruth Dennis said it had been noted "The longer nosed Cavaliers tended to have less severe symptoms"

Margaret C
25th October 2010, 06:02 PM
I was at the meeting. Dr. Ruth Dennis said it had been noted "The longer nosed Cavaliers tended to have less severe symptoms"


I was there with Tania & I remember there was some mention of nose length, but I'm not sure that there was any studies quoted that supported this?

As Bet has already noted there is an excellent detailed report on the CMSM Seminar now up on the cavalier club website...........

www.thecavalierclub.co.uk (http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk)

I have added the website address to a comment on my blog which, I am delighted to report, has been viewed over 800 times.

Isn't the Internet wonderful when it comes to sharing information?

Bet
25th October 2010, 06:05 PM
I was at the meeting. Dr. Ruth Dennis said it had been noted "The longer nosed Cavaliers tended to have less severe symptoms"

Interesting Observation from the BVA/KC SM Seminar

I suppose I will be getting into trouble again by the Cavalier Breeder Mafia ,so what is new !!!! by mentioning this, ...

Dr Rusbridge had said at the Seminar,that the Volume of the Brain within the Skull Caudal Fossa is signifiicantly greater in SM Cases ,even greater in early SM Cases,the Larger the Syrinx ,the Larger the Brain within the Skull.

Tania has Posted that she was at the Meeting ,Dr Ruth Dennis said it had been noted " The Longer Nosed Cavaliers tended to have less Severe Symptoms.

What else Dr Rusbridge said ,was that Genomic Values through time will be good enough ,and Scanning will become less necessary.

Does this mean that when the Genes for SM are found ,this will be the Result.

Bet

Kate H
25th October 2010, 07:11 PM
Dr Rusbridge had said at the Seminar,that the Volume of the Brain within the Skull Caudal Fossa is signifiicantly greater in SM Cases ,even greater in early SM Cases,the Larger the Syrinx ,the Larger the Brain within the Skull.


I would guess that what Dr Rusbridge meant is not that the actual size of the brain is bigger, but that CM/SM causes enlarged ventricles, which push the brain outwards towards the skull, as in Hydrocephalus - which is partly why CM alone also causes pain.

Kate, Oliver and Aled

RodRussell
26th October 2010, 03:06 AM
I would guess that what Dr Rusbridge meant is not that the actual size of the brain is bigger, but that CM/SM causes enlarged ventricles, which push the brain outwards towards the skull, as in Hydrocephalus - which is partly why CM alone also causes pain.

My understanding is that one of the current theories is that the hindbrain of the Cavalier continues to grow after the closure of the skull's growth plate, resulting in that portion of the brain being too large for its share of the skull. So, I think that Dr. Rusbridge has hypothesized that the brain is too big for the skull. Hence her comparison to the size ten foot in the size six shoe.

RodRussell
26th October 2010, 03:09 AM
If nose length is determinative, then I suppose a quick solution to the continuation of passing on this defect would be to change the breed standard, briefly open the stud book to cross breeding with, say, whippets, and then see how long a nose Cavalier breeders can create in future generations.

Kate H
26th October 2010, 09:50 AM
If nose length is determinative, then I suppose a quick solution to the continuation of passing on this defect would be to change the breed standard, briefly open the stud book to cross breeding with, say, whippets, and then see how long a nose Cavalier breeders can create in future generations.

Or go back to one of the probable original outcrosses which created the modern Cavalier, which is the Papillon (possibly one parent of Ann's Son, our 'founding father'), also a spaniel breed - you can see the similarity if you look at a phalene, the drop-eared version of the Papillon.

I stand corrected on brain size - thanks Rob, can't keep up with all this research (but also have a dog with hydrocephalus - the condition, not the disease)!

Kate, Oliver and Aled

Nicki
26th October 2010, 10:23 AM
TBH in my limited experience, I have had one very severely affected dog with a longer nose, one with a moderate nose length [old style head] who had several severe episodes of pain but was well in between, and lived to 12 and one shorter nosed dog who was moderate/severely affected and was PTS at 6 due to SM pain.


I think this is anecdotal rather than the result of a study, but it is definitely something worth investigating further.

Bet
26th October 2010, 10:46 AM
TBH in my limited experience, I have had one very severely affected dog with a longer nose, one with a moderate nose length [old style head] who had several severe episodes of pain but was well in between, and lived to 12 and one shorter nosed dog who was moderate/severely affected and was PTS at 6 due to SM pain.


I think this is anecdotal rather than the result of a study, but it is definitely something worth investigating further.

Interesting Obsveration from the BVA /KC SM Seminar

Now heres another thought, I believe it was Cavalier Breeder Pam Turle ,who Crossed a Whippet with a Cavalier, no doubt some of the Cavalier Cyber Bullies will put me right about this !!,but if some of the Descendants of this Mating could be found, and did'nt have SM ,food for thought.

We know that a Cavalier who was MRI Scanned recently had no SM, the Pedigree could be traced back to the Cavalier Cocker Spaniel Cross in the early 1950's.

But does it still not depend on what Genes the Cavaliers have, that is giving the SM problem.

Do the Shorter Nosed Smaller Headed Cavaliers have more of those SM Genes.

If that's the case then Cavaliers are really in a Mess, between their MVD Problem and so many Cavaliers around to-day with Smaller Heads and Short Noses.

Bet

sins
26th October 2010, 10:50 AM
it had been noted "The longer nosed Cavaliers tended to have less severe symptoms"

Fair enough...but let's not get carried away,it simply says less severe symptoms. Not free of SM or even asymptomatic!
The statement is even so vague as to use the word tended.
If I have another cavalier,the only guide I'll be using is the Mri scans of it's parents/grandparents...and it's still no guarantee.
Also when choosing a pup,it's easy to pick something you imagine has a long muzzle.Holly had a very long muzzle as a puppy.Then suddenly she just started to fill out and her muzzle isn't very long after all.
Daisy as a pup was the closest thing to a duck billed platypus you ever saw and she ended up with the tiniest muzzle.I'm still scratching my head over that one:confused:.
Sins