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Karlin
14th November 2010, 10:51 PM
Expect no punches to be pulled on producer Jemima Harrison's new blog:

http://pedigreedogsexposed.blogspot.com/

Margaret C
16th November 2010, 12:19 AM
Take a look at the blog about the Bulldogs. The dog was so restless, so obviously in distress, and the colour of his tongue is unbelievable.

The hall was not hot, just comfortable. These dogs must suffer so much during a warm summer.

Karlin
16th November 2010, 12:59 PM
It is incredible that people were there looking at these dogs as a choice for a pet and even the owners -- presumably well-informed about the breed -- could not see that there is definite distress. I think it is yet again an example of why legislation is needed to FORCE changes in the way dogs are bred as even the breed aficionados and breeders cannot see what any vet could diagnose just by looking at those dogs. The average person would not recognise the problems but more than one vet I know has looked at that footage and agrees they are having serious respiratory problems evidenced by the tongue going purple.

ByFloSin
16th November 2010, 01:34 PM
There is no way I would ever personally condone malformation of any animal or any suffering, accidental or otherwise, but

Knowing nothing about this breed or it's health status I do not feel myself able to comment. Surely there was at least one experienced vet on duty and present throughout at least part of the event. Surely some caring person, perhaps Ms Harrison or any camera operator used by her should have reported this dog's apparent suffering to that vet so that the dog could be expertly examined and withdrawn from the event if appropriate.

Past experience tells me that video evidence may not always be as it seems, but I was not there and have no idea of the true circumstances of the filming.

Margaret C
16th November 2010, 01:44 PM
There is no way I would ever personally condone malformation of any animal or any suffering, accidental or otherwise, but

Knowing nothing about this breed or it's health status I do not feel myself able to comment. Surely there was at least one experienced vet on duty and present throughout at least part of the event. Surely some caring person, perhaps Ms Harrison or any camera operator used by her should have reported this dog's apparent suffering to that vet so that the dog could be expertly examined and withdrawn from the event if appropriate.

Past experience tells me that video evidence may not always be as it seems, but I was not there and have no idea of the true circumstances of the filming.

Hello Flo,

You obviously did not read the blog. The Bulldogs' distress was reported.

Quote.........

"The dogs were in such a poor state that I reported them to the show vet and showed him my footage, mentioning who I was. "Could you hang on here a moment while I go and show this to the Kennel Club" asked Eric the vet, reaching out for my iPhone (on which I filmed the dogs). Fearing my beloved Apple portable device might meet a sudden and untimely end once in KC paws, I said I would stay put while they fetched someone. Eric disappeared. I waited. Who would it be, I wondered. I waited some more. No one came. But of course - they would have gone straight to the Bulldog stand! I left my phone number with the veterinary nurse and hot-tailed it to the Bulldog stand just in time to see Eric the vet and KC Secretary Caroline Kisko ushering the two bulldogs and their unhappy owners off the stand. And it wasn't just for a quick vet-check either. They didn't return."

Fifer
16th November 2010, 01:45 PM
I'm absolutely appalled!

Margaret you were spot on regarding the haw on the Neo. What in god's name are breeders doing? That Neo had far more wrinkles than the dog I first saw 30 years ago! Why oh why do people have to breed to extremes instead of a "standard" or average??

ByFloSin
16th November 2010, 02:20 PM
Hello Flo,

You obviously did not read the blog. The Bulldogs' distress was reported.

Quote.........

"The dogs were in such a poor state that I reported them to the show vet and showed him my footage, mentioning who I was. "Could you hang on here a moment while I go and show this to the Kennel Club" asked Eric the vet, reaching out for my iPhone (on which I filmed the dogs). Fearing my beloved Apple portable device might meet a sudden and untimely end once in KC paws, I said I would stay put while they fetched someone. Eric disappeared. I waited. Who would it be, I wondered. I waited some more. No one came. But of course - they would have gone straight to the Bulldog stand! I left my phone number with the veterinary nurse and hot-tailed it to the Bulldog stand just in time to see Eric the vet and KC Secretary Caroline Kisko ushering the two bulldogs and their unhappy owners off the stand. And it wasn't just for a quick vet-check either. They didn't return."



You are quite right of course Margaret and I apologise. In fact I saw the video and felt physically sick, so sick that I clicked off the site. Then I thought about it, but could not go back to it, so I posted as I did.

Full marks to Ms Kisko et al for responding so effectively. I think that while still imperfect the KC are trying their best to bring about improvement.

Margaret C
16th November 2010, 02:31 PM
You are quite right of course Margaret and I apologise. In fact I saw the video and felt physically sick, so sick that I clicked off the site. Then I thought about it, but could not go back to it, so I posted as I did.

Full marks to Ms Kisko et al for responding so effectively. I think that while still imperfect the KC are trying their best to bring about improvement.

I do wish I could agree that the KC is trying their best, but there is no real evidence that is so.

From what I have seen, heard, and experienced, the KC is still only concerned about health issues when embarassed into taking action.

RodRussell
16th November 2010, 06:44 PM
...What in god's name are breeders doing? That Neo had far more wrinkles than the dog I first saw 30 years ago! Why oh why do people have to breed to extremes instead of a "standard" or average??

Well, consider the CKCS. Since 1997/1998, breeders in the UK & USA have known how to breed early-onset mitral valve disease out of the breed within three generations. All they have had to do is follow the MVD breeding protocol -- http://cavalierhealth.org/mvdprotocol.htm But about 98% of them (in the USA, at least) have refused to do so. So, early onset MVD persists, with over half of all cavaliers developing murmurs by their fifth birthday, then followed by MVD's progression to painful, premature deaths.

Unlike the Neo, this has nothing to do with the dogs' outward physical appearances or the breed standard. And yet, because most all CKCS breeders think only as far as their next generation of future champions, the entire breed continues to suffer. Remember, it is much, much easier to breed champion cavaliers when you ignore health testing and breeding protocols.

How do these breeders deal with the criticisms? Like one of the comments on the pedigreedogsexposed.com blog, they attack those who bring this information forward. They accuse these mostly pet owners of ignorance ("I'm a breeder and you're not!") and egotism. I have found that one of the best ways to strike cavalier breeders from your list is to read how they respond pet owners who urge breeders to follow health testing protocols. My list of prospective CKCS breeders in the USA, from whom I'd want a dog, is down to mighty slim.

Bet
16th November 2010, 07:17 PM
Well, consider the CKCS. Since 1997/1998, breeders in the UK & USA have known how to breed early-onset mitral valve disease out of the breed within three generations. All they have had to do is follow the MVD breeding protocol -- http://cavalierhealth.org/mvdprotocol.htm But about 98% of them have refused to do so. So, early onset MVD persists, with over half of all cavaliers developing murmurs by their fifth birthday, then followed by MVD's progression to painful, premature deaths.

Unlike the Neo, this has nothing to do with the dogs' outward physical appearances or the breed standard. And yet, because most all CKCS breeders think only as far as their next generation of future champions, the entire breed continues to suffer. Remember, it is much, much easier to breed champion cavaliers when you ignore health testing and breeding protocols.

How do these breeders deal with the criticisms? Like one of the comments on the pedigreedogsexposed.com blog, they attack those who bring this information forward. They accuse these mostly pet owners of ignorance ("I'm a breeder and you're not!") and egotism. I have found that one of the best ways to strike cavalier breeders from your list is to read how they respond pet owners who urge breeders to follow health testing protocols. My list of prospective CKCS breeders in the USA, from whom I'd want a dog, is down to mighty slim.


Thanks Rod for your Post, I am having quite a Battle on another Forum about the SM and MVD Problem in Cavaliers .

One Cavalier Breeder has just stated that,the SM and MVD Problems in Cavaliers should Never have been put in the Public Domain.

That telling Cavalier Buyers about SM has made them Fearful.Any -way what is in the Public Arena about the SM and MVD in Cavaliers is Untrue.

I just cannot agree with this Statement ,the Cavalier Buying have got to be being made aware to only buy from a Cavalier Breeder who is Health Testing and following the Breeding Guideline Recomendations ,not to Breed from a Cavalier before 2.5 years of age, and know the Health Status of the Grand-Parents at 5.

I just don't know enough about the Pedigree Back-ground of
Cavaliers with SM, but do know that ,as I have often said ,that Cavaliers in the 1940's and 19 50's who were being used at Stud, were dying from Heart Trouble at 6-8 years of age.

So could one of the Reasons be why the MVD Problem is not Improving ,is that there are now so many Cavalier Carriers around now with the MVD Genes., as a result of Breeding from those Early Cavaliers who were suffering from Heart Trouble.

Are even Long Lived Cavaliers Carriers of the MVD Genes,if they are what a Mess the Cavalier Breed is in.

I could be Contradicting my-self , saying about Health Testing and following tbe Breeding Guideline Recommendations on Cavalier Breeding Stock, but by doing this ,even although there are Cavalier Carriers of SM and MVD Genes, maybe through time those Carrier Genes will get Diluted.

Any-body got any thoughts about this.

Bet

Margaret C
16th November 2010, 08:16 PM
Well, consider the CKCS. Since 1997/1998, breeders in the UK & USA have known how to breed early-onset mitral valve disease out of the breed within three generations. All they have had to do is follow the MVD breeding protocol -- http://cavalierhealth.org/mvdprotocol.htm But about 98% of them have refused to do so. So, early onset MVD persists, with over half of all cavaliers developing murmurs by their fifth birthday, then followed by MVD's progression to painful, premature deaths.

Unlike the Neo, this has nothing to do with the dogs' outward physical appearances or the breed standard. And yet, because most all CKCS breeders think only as far as their next generation of future champions, the entire breed continues to suffer. Remember, it is much, much easier to breed champion cavaliers when you ignore health testing and breeding protocols.



Nothing has changed except the hypocrisy becomes more blatant. I call them the "Say One Thing, Do Another" crowd

I read the Breed Record Supplement..... Club Members mating 14 month bitches, back to back matings becoming commonplace in some breeding programmes, so that one poor little girl had two litters by the time she was 22 months..............Now isn't that the sort of thing that puppy farmers are suppose to do, not responsible club breeders that had signed to say they would accept the Club's rules?

And then there is one of the latest Champions, with puppies born when he is only 14 months, not just a proving litter, more litters have been born and more on the way.
Owner is a regional club health representative.

RodRussell
16th November 2010, 10:06 PM
The blog's criticism of the American Kennel Club is not quite fair in this instance. The AKC has no initial say in matters pertaining to particular breeds. That authority is in the hands of the "parent club" for that breed, which here would be the Dalmatian Club of America (DCA).

There is nothing unique about an AKC parent club being stacked with harden-hearted breeders more concerned about championships than relieving future generations of puppies from intense pain and early deaths. For instance, I can think of at least one other AKC parent club which has refused to even acknowledge the existence of the cavaliers' MVD breeding protocol, much less urge its members to follow it.

Imagine the AKC commissioning a study of early-onset MVD in CKCSs, in which the study absolutely and unequivocally reported that following the MVD breeding protocol would greatly reduce, if not eliminate, early-onset MVD in the breed in three generations. And then, imagine that:


The AKC's Board agreed to a proposed agreement, pending acceptance of the American Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Club's Board, which would bring the matter to a vote by the ACKCSC membership in June 2011. The AKC Board would consider this vote, along with other factors in reaching its final decision.

Now, just imagine what the result we may expect from the ACKCSC...

HollyDolly
16th November 2010, 10:37 PM
I read the Breed Record Supplement..... Club Members mating 14 month bitches, back to back matings becoming commonplace in some breeding programmes, so that one poor little girl had two litters by the time she was 22 months..............Now isn't that the sort of thing that puppy farmers are suppose to do, not responsible club breeders that had signed to say they would accept the Club's rules?

.

I assume the CKCS Club wil do absolutely nothing about this terrible abuse of a young dog?

Teresa
16th November 2010, 10:52 PM
Margaret what you've written makes me so cross!! What are people thinking?
I have a friend, lost two older Cavaliers and has a puppy...Six months old and having her first season. Yesterday says to me I would like a litter next year!!! I said but she will only be 18 months old max! She didn't have a clue, I said if I even consider a litter I would want Cass to be two and a half plus and health checked first. When I mentioned heart and eye checks she went quiet...not a clue!!! She's a lovely lady but clueless!!! People who don't look into breeding fully are really not helping with the problems!!!

A friend I have on Facebook that I knew at school has just homed her puppies, through a free ad paper :( I don't think any specific checks had been done on the dogs either!!

I have only ever had Barney and Cassie but there is no reason that anyone can't dig
on the net and gain knowledge, I think a lot of people would rather not know...
I am so grateful for forums like this and people caring passionately about the breed
I can't tell you.
When I was looking for a new pup a lady I know at the childrens school who very sadly lost a Cav that was put to sleep because of Sm and has another sufferer said she wouldn't get another and recommended the same for me...I thought, no I love the breed and spent a lot of time looking for a breeder and pup I was happy with. This lady has since bought a British Bull Dog puppy along with all the issues they carry!! It has already had an eye operation!!

I am going to stop writing now!! I just get so angry and upset!! Sorry to go on!!

RodRussell
16th November 2010, 10:56 PM
I assume the CKCS Club wil do absolutely nothing about this terrible abuse of a young dog?

I am not sure this ("one poor little girl had two litters by the time she was 22 months") would be abuse. In the CKCSC,USA, it still is okay to "Allow a [1+ year old] bitch to whelp ... two litters during any three consecutive seasons."

Karlin
17th November 2010, 01:08 AM
And then there is one of the latest Champions, with puppies born when he is only 14 months, not just a proving litter, more litters have been born and more on the way.
Owner is a regional club health representative.

What a moron. These people are so empty of any ethical sense or responsibility towards cavalier breeding, aren't they? What a perfect example to bring to the new Dog Advisory Committee and to people's own MPs to ask for real change in dog breeding.

Margaret C
17th November 2010, 01:19 AM
I am not sure this ("one poor little girl had two litters by the time she was 22 months") would be abuse. In the CKCSC,USA, it still is okay to "Allow a [1+ year old] bitch to whelp ... two litters during any three consecutive seasons."

In the UK Cavalier Club Code.........

PART D: - BITCHES TO BE USED FOR BREEDING.

4. No bitch should normally rear a litter on consecutive seasons, and in any case, must have no more than one litter in any 12 month period.

Margaret C
17th November 2010, 01:31 AM
What a moron. These people are so empty of any ethical sense or responsibility towards cavalier breeding, aren't they? What a perfect example to bring to the new Dog Advisory Committee and to people's own MPs to ask for real change in dog breeding.

I have written to the Cavalier Club and the regional breed club. I do believe it is up to the clubs to make it clear they expect certain standards from their members.

I'm awaiting their replies.

Margaret C
17th November 2010, 01:43 AM
When I was looking for a new pup a lady I know at the childrens school who very sadly lost a Cav that was put to sleep because of Sm and has another sufferer said she wouldn't get another and recommended the same for me...I thought, no I love the breed and spent a lot of time looking for a breeder and pup I was happy with. This lady has since bought a British Bull Dog puppy along with all the issues they carry!! It has already had an eye operation!!

I am going to stop writing now!! I just get so angry and upset!! Sorry to go on!!

Hello Teresa,

Go on all you like, someone has got to care, and it is the pet owner that will be left coping with the sick dogs.

We need to get angry & upset, and then channel that emotion into making things change.

We owe it to the gentle little dogs that suffer because of a few selfish money grabbing people.

Reptigirl
17th November 2010, 02:52 AM
My list of prospective CKCS breeders in the USA, from whom I'd want a dog, is down to mighty slim.

I really agree with that statement. I have been searching around for a breeder who health tests whom I might consider purchasing another puppy from. Sadly most breeders I find seem to be ignoring the health issues and make the informed puppy buyer feel like they are mislead about health issues in the breed. The few that do health test seem to only be interested in MVD, hips, knees and eyes. I'm GLAD there are some breeders out there who care enough to do these tests but if they are obviously educated about MVD I don't understand how they can ignore SM.

I was so shocked when I recently contacted someone from the Cavalier Rescue of the USA. She had been so helpful in recommending I take Flash to Texas A & M and was very knowledgeable about the breed. I inquired if she could point me in the right direction of anyone anywhere in the USA who does MRI testing on there breeding stock. This is the response I got : "MRI exams are not required of breeders so I doubt you will find any breeders in the US or elsewhere who do an MRI on their breed stock." :bang:

anniemac
17th November 2010, 04:17 AM
On finding a breeder in usa that scans from cavalier rescue statement, I'm sure you can but have to look. Having a dog with SM it obviously is a concern of mine, but what has pointed out, mvd protocal is still not being followed like it should.

I'm thinking of the particular cost of scanning MRI for a breeder is so much more than MVD. I'm not a breeder so please correct me! It just seems that if something less expensive is not being followed but at least it is recognized, I can see their point. We need cheaper scans for breeders here and it to be pushed and exposed as it has been elsewhere.

I don't know if it came out right but I think very few people in the usa have a clue about any health issues. Its not a joke and these poor dogs suffer. There are good breeders but it seems so easy for people to do without any concern for health


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anniemac
17th November 2010, 04:48 AM
Maybe that didn't sound right. If I found a breeder who scanned, I would still be skeptical of any breeder that said there is no chance of SM. I can't remember what the most recent statistics showed a to a, b to a, d to d... etc. It is hard for general public to understand these things. I know for my next cavalier, I would want someone open and honest. Someone who is active in trying to have the most healthy litter. Maybe my next will be a rescue with SM :)

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RodRussell
18th November 2010, 04:51 AM
... I inquired if she could point me in the right direction of anyone anywhere in the USA who does MRI testing on there breeding stock. This is the response I got : "MRI exams are not required of breeders so I doubt you will find any breeders in the US or elsewhere who do an MRI on their breed stock." :bang:

It is true that MRI exams of cavalier breeding stock are not required by either national CKCS club in the USA. But there are cavalier breeders who either MRI their breeding stock or otherwise follow the SM breeding protocol -- http://www.cavalierhealth.org/smprotocol.htm#International_Syringomyelia

JenniferP
27th November 2010, 01:42 PM
I there a list of UK breeders who do all the health tests and follow the ethical code of using healthy dogs to breed etc etc? I would love another cavalier but I couldn't go through all the heartbreak again of watching my dog slowly and painfully die like my last one did.

Margaret C
27th November 2010, 02:25 PM
I there a list of UK breeders who do all the health tests and follow the ethical code of using healthy dogs to breed etc etc? I would love another cavalier but I couldn't go through all the heartbreak again of watching my dog slowly and painfully die like my last one did.

Hello Jennifer,

Send me a PM with your email address.

I keep a list and I send it out with information on what certificates the breeder should show you. I also explain how to read those certificates and be sure that the puppies have been bred according to the guidelines.

I advise that buyers should make it clear that they expect to see all the certificates when they first go to see the puppies.
They should not make the mistake of looking at the puppies before seeing the certificates, as they are unlikely to be able to resist taking one home.

There are many breeders who are expert sales people. They can 'talk the talk'. Buyers should not believe any breeder who says they have no problems with MVD or SM in their dogs. These problems are in every line.

Even with breeders that are recommended by other people it is wise to ask to see the certificates that prove the parents are unaffected.

I do not recommend breeders, as I cannot know for sure that every one of their litters are bred to the health protocols.
Breeders do sometimes breed according to the guidelines one time, & then decide to use an unscanned or underage dog when they produce the next litter.

I do have a list of a few UK breeders that I understand have scanned some of their cavaliers with good results, and that say they heart and eye test all their cavaliers.

My list, in many cases, is based only on information given to me by the breeder, so I make it quite clear that it is the Buyer's responsibility to make sure they know what certificates to ask for, & how to read the results shown on those certificates.

If the breeders on my list cannot help they will sometimes put puppy buyers on a waiting list, or refer them on to other breeders that are planning litters from health tested parents.

Margaret C
10th December 2010, 03:02 PM
As you may expect I keep an eye on the Pedigree Dog Exposed blog and occasionally post a comment.

I have just come across a link on there posted by someone else. It is mainly concerned with Dalmations, but there is a bit about the Cavalier Club ( and me ) that has left me really chuckling.

http://darlingyouaredoingitwrong.blogspot.com/2009/09/quiz-gotta-pee-but-can.html

Dated 2009, I am surprised I have never seen it before.

If you want to know what show breeding is about........go and do the quizzes.