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Kate H
23rd November 2010, 09:25 PM
The abstracts (summaries) of all the talks are now available on the Cavalier Club site (www.thecavalierclub.co.uk (http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk)).

Kate, Oliver and Aled

Karlin
23rd November 2010, 11:01 PM
Thanks, Kate!

Margaret has also blogged the full talks in more detail (in several parts) -- as opposed to just abstracts -- at her CavalierTalk blog:

http://www.cavaliertalk.com/forums/blog.php?3700-Margaret-C

If others who attended want to add their notes -- Tania? :) -- feel free to create a thread! And then add links to this thread. :D

RodRussell
24th November 2010, 12:59 AM
The abstracts (summaries) of all the talks are now available on the Cavalier Club site (www.thecavalierclub.co.uk (http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk)).

I noticed that Simon Swift once again reiterated the necessity of all cavalier breeders following the MVD breeding protocol. It would be nice if more breeders would pay attention to him.

Margaret C
24th November 2010, 02:42 PM
I noticed that Simon Swift once again reiterated the necessity of all cavalier breeders following the MVD breeding protocol. It would be nice if more breeders would pay attention to him.


There are now breeders that are health testing eyes, hearts, and for SM, and using the breeding guidelines.

There are however a core of breeders, often very successful in the show ring, that just continue to breed as they have always done, with very young cavaliers, with back to back matings, in a way that would bring accusations of puppy farming if they were not at the top of the show world.

Some of them were sitting in the lecture room at the Cavalier Club Health Day. Some of them are regional club health representatives and others are committee members.

These are the breeders that did everything to deny the problem and sabotage the attempts to investigate the extent and cause of the health issues in the breed.
They still attempt to rubbish and deny the research and researchers.

Cavaliers are a very sick breed, the Foetal Tissue Research has shown that they are born already health compromised, and breeders have to take responsibility and start breeding away from the problems.

I will be quite honest, I can accept that some people are just too mercenary to care about the dogs they breed and the people they sell their puppies to................but what I find it hard to get my head around is the nice caring breeders that allow such tawdry people to dominate the breed.

The ordinary decent club members know that these people say one thing and do something else, they know they are hypocrites, and yet they hand them this power and play along with the charade.

It would be good if a few more club members found the guts to speak openly what they only dare say in private.

There is a publication called the Kennel Club Breed Record Supplement. It is a quarterly publication that record the litters registered in that four month period.
I have just started writing to complain to the cavalier clubs when I see that club members, and more particularly, committee members have broken the guidelines.

It really is time to change the climate of opinion that allows these arrogant people to openly continue using unscanned top sires, underage champions and fourteen month old bitches and still remain on club committees unchallenged.

Bet
24th November 2010, 07:18 PM
There are now breeders that are health testing eyes, hearts, and for SM, and using the breeding guidelines.

There are however a core of breeders, often very successful in the show ring, that just continue to breed as they have always done, with very young cavaliers, with back to back matings, in a way that would bring accusations of puppy farming if they were not at the top of the show world.

Some of them were sitting in the lecture room at the Cavalier Club Health Day. Some of them are regional club health representatives and others are committee members.

These are the breeders that did everything to deny the problem and sabotage the attempts to investigate the extent and cause of the health issues in the breed.
They still attempt to rubbish and deny the research and researchers.

Cavaliers are a very sick breed, the Foetal Tissue Research has shown that they are born already health compromised, and breeders have to take responsibility and start breeding away from the problems.

I will be quite honest, I can accept that some people are just too mercenary to care about the dogs they breed and the people they sell their puppies to................but what I find it hard to get my head around is the nice caring breeders that allow such tawdry people to dominate the breed.

The ordinary decent club members know that these people say one thing and do something else, they know they are hypocrites, and yet they hand them this power and play along with the charade.

It would be good if a few more club members found the guts to speak openly what they only dare say in private.

There is a publication called the Kennel Club Breed Record Supplement. It is a quarterly publication that record the litters registered in that four month period.
I have just started writing to complain to the cavalier clubs when I see that club members, and more particularly, committee members have broken the guidelines.

It really is time to change the climate of opinion that allows these arrogant people to openly continue using unscanned top sires, underage champions and fourteen month old bitches and still remain on club committees unchallenged.

CAVALIER HEALTH DAY.

Margaret , thanks for this Post, I think it is Called the Breeder Mafia ,run by a Few Elderly Cavalier Breeders who seem to Think that they are most Important to our Cavaliers.

They live in an Ivory Tower, and what they have said about the Health in the Cavalier Breed for years should never be being Questioned.

HEALTH PROBLEMS....WHAT HEALTH PROBLEMS.!!!!

They only have to look at the Cavaliers, even the Researchers are Shocked at the Mess the Health Problems are causing the Breed.

Yes they do Malign the Researchers, I had to Resign from a Cavalier Club about what had been said by a Club's Health Representative making Derogatory Remarks concerning Simon Swift the Cardiologist ,who has tried for years to help with the MVD Problem Afflicting our Breed.

I just could not remain a Member of that Club, when the Health Representative had such an Attitude towards some-one Dedicated to helping Cavaliers.

No ,it was'nt the CKCS Parent Club.

I for sure agree with Margaret about Cavalier Breeders following the Breeding Guideline Recomendations.

If some CKCS CLUB COMMITTEE MEMBERS who are Cavalier Breeders are behaving so Irresponsibly not to be giving other Cavalier Breeders who are Members of the CKCS CLUB the Lead by not following the Breeding Guideline Recomendations, then what chance have Cavaliers got of Healthier , Longer Lives.

Bet

RodRussell
24th November 2010, 07:59 PM
... There are however a core of breeders, often very successful in the show ring, that just continue to breed as they have always done, with very young cavaliers, with back to back matings, in a way that would bring accusations of puppy farming if they were not at the top of the show world. ...

It is a lot easier to when champion points when you don't follow breeding protocols.

To those breeders who are very successful in the show ring, but do not follow the protocols:

Your champions are a sad joke, and you are doing more to destroy the future generations of this breed than all of the puppy farmers, because it is your dogs that become breeding stock, generation after generation.

Margaret C
24th November 2010, 08:54 PM
It is a lot easier to when champion points when you don't follow breeding protocols.

To those breeders who are very successful in the show ring, but do not follow the protocols:

Your champions are a sad joke, and you are doing more to destroy the future generations of this breed than all of the puppy farmers, because it is your dogs that become breeding stock, generation after generation.

And ain't that the truth.

I've blogged about the last talk. It was fascinating, but to me really worrying.

It appears that some breeders are hailing Dr McGonnell's findings as the " light at the end of the tunnel" but I cannot understand why.

If all cavaliers, as appears from this study, are born with CM and weakened bone in their hind skull, then how is it ever going to be bred out.?

Bet
25th November 2010, 10:38 AM
And ain't that the truth.

I've blogged about the last talk. It was fascinating, but to me really worrying.

It appears that some breeders are hailing Dr McGonnell's findings as the " light at the end of the tunnel" but I cannot understand why.

If all cavaliers, as appears from this study, are born with CM and weakened bone in their hind skull, then how is it ever going to be bred out.?

CAVALIER HEALTH DAY

Margaret , these are Exactly my Thoughts as well.

Are some Cavalier Breeders Living in LA LA Land!!!!!

Also could I mention that I now Realize how Jealous and Childish some Cavalier Breeders are.

Bet

Kate H
25th November 2010, 11:41 AM
I think the impact of Dr McGonnell's talk was not that the problem of finding the gene which causes this fundamental lack of communication is going to be any easier, but that at least we MIGHT (big might!) be looking for one gene (or group of genes) rather than two completely different ones. And she was very cautious about it - obviously a lot of work needed and it may not lead anywhere. If anyone jumped to over-optimistic conclusions, they obviously weren't listening very carefully. But it is a fascinating possibility...

Kate, Oliver and Aled

Bet
25th November 2010, 12:28 PM
I think the impact of Dr McGonnell's talk was not that the problem of finding the gene which causes this fundamental lack of communication is going to be any easier, but that at least we MIGHT (big might!) be looking for one gene (or group of genes) rather than two completely different ones. And she was very cautious about it - obviously a lot of work needed and it may not lead anywhere. If anyone jumped to over-optimistic conclusions, they obviously weren't listening very carefully. But it is a fascinating possibility...

Kate, Oliver and Aled

CAVALIER HEALTH DAY

SO, is the most important Information for the SM Problem in our Cavaliers, MRI SCAN Cavalier Breeding Stock.

Bet

Bet
25th November 2010, 01:35 PM
CAVALIER HEALTH DAY

SO, is the most important Information for the SM Problem in our Cavaliers, MRI SCAN Cavalier Breeding Stock.

Bet

CAVALIER HEALTH DAY.

The Number of Whelps is even more Worrying than the Figure of 71 that Margaret gave , it's 85.

71 was bad enough but to know that it's 85 who all had CM, what a Problem the Cavalier Breed has.

Bet

sins
25th November 2010, 01:36 PM
SO, is the most important Information for the SM Problem in our Cavaliers, MRI SCAN Cavalier Breeding Stock

Yes Bet,
In spite of the progress made in terms of research and understanding of the condition,there is still no alternative breeding tool available to breeders.
The EBV or Breedmate still needs Mri scans and as recent presentations have shown,it's vital to avoid breeding from two affected parents.
There's still a pressing need to scan older males to try and increase the availability of healthier stud dogs and to identify dogs which should not be lost to the genepool.
So many areas of research depend on Mri scans, we mustn't lose sight of that in our hopes of a genetic test becoming available in future.
The unfortunate drawback is the time it takes from when a puppy arrives to when it can be scanned to yield the relevant information in a breeding programme.
There are now breeders who are scanning and using information gained to breed from parents who are not only Mri A,but without central canal dilation as well.So it's not as blunt a tool as was previously thought.
Again there's the time required to allow the offspring to reach 2.5 years before scanning so it's a long hard road for the truly committed breeder..
Sometimes people must feel like there are more problems than solutions!
Sins

Bet
25th November 2010, 07:37 PM
It is a lot easier to when champion points when you don't follow breeding protocols.

To those breeders who are very successful in the show ring, but do not follow the protocols:

Your champions are a sad joke, and you are doing more to destroy the future generations of this breed than all of the puppy farmers, because it is your dogs that become breeding stock, generation after generation.

CAVALIER HEALTH DAY.

As Rod has Posted ,it is the Cavalier Champions and the Cavaliers who are sucessful in the Show Ring and if their Owners are not following the Breeding Guideline Recommendations ,then they possibly are doing more harm to the Cavalier Breed than any other Folk in Cavaliers.

What does it matter about the Figures being Spun by those Cavalier Owners who keep Harping on about Puppy Farmers' Cavaliers , these are not the Cavaliers who are being Shown in the Show Ring,so Really it's time for that Red Herring to stop being mentioned.

With the Serious number of Cavalier Whelps with CM ,and I would think that most are from CKCS CLUB MEMBERS who are Breeders, it was mentioned by some-one about Light Being at the End of the Tunnel with the Cavaliers' SM Problem , must not under-stand any-thing about what this means , have just shown how Ignorant they are about this Problem.

What a Stupid Claim to have been Made!!

What Damage has been done to Cavaliers by this Senseless Comment, and unfortunately will be being Believed by others not knowing what this means.

That the Cavalier Breed is in Terrible State, and no amount of Spinning ,or trying to hide the Truth about their Health Problems will alter this Fact.

At the Moment as the Researchers said, Cavalier Breeders have to Follow the Breeding Guideline Recommendations, ...

These State that the Cavalier Brood Bitch should be a Minimum of 2.5 years of age ,with a CLEAR HEART ,and Parents with Clear Heart Certificates ,issued at 5 years or Older.

Also those same Breeding Guideline Recommendations apply to the Cavalier Stud Dog.

There are some Cavalier Breeders doing this, but if the Others feel that cannot do this, then as the Saying Goes.

If They can't Stand the Heat ,then Get Out of the Kitchen,and leave the Breeding of Cavaliers to the Cavalier Breeders who truly Care about the Future of our Breed.

Bet

Bet
26th November 2010, 11:53 AM
CAVALIER HEALTH DAY.

As Rod has Posted ,it is the Cavalier Champions and the Cavaliers who are sucessful in the Show Ring and if their Owners are not following the Breeding Guideline Recommendations ,then they possibly are doing more harm to the Cavalier Breed than any other Folk in Cavaliers.

What does it matter about the Figures being Spun by those Cavalier Owners who keep Harping on about Puppy Farmers' Cavaliers , these are not the Cavaliers who are being Shown in the Show Ring,so Really it's time for that Red Herring to stop being mentioned.

With the Serious number of Cavalier Whelps with CM ,and I would think that most are from CKCS CLUB MEMBERS who are Breeders, it was mentioned by some-one about Light Being at the End of the Tunnel with the Cavaliers' SM Problem , must not under-stand any-thing about what this means , have just shown how Ignorant they are about this Problem.

What a Stupid Claim to have been Made!!

What Damage has been done to Cavaliers by this Senseless Comment, and unfortunately will be being Believed by others not knowing what this means.

That the Cavalier Breed is in Terrible State, and no amount of Spinning ,or trying to hide the Truth about their Health Problems will alter this Fact.

At the Moment as the Researchers said, Cavalier Breeders have to Follow the Breeding Guideline Recommendations, ...

These State that the Cavalier Brood Bitch should be a Minimum of 2.5 years of age ,with a CLEAR HEART ,and Parents with Clear Heart Certificates ,issued at 5 years or Older.

Also those same Breeding Guideline Recommendations apply to the Cavalier Stud Dog.

There are some Cavalier Breeders doing this, but if the Others feel that cannot do this, then as the Saying Goes.

If They can't Stand the Heat ,then Get Out of the Kitchen,and leave the Breeding of Cavaliers to the Cavalier Breeders who truly Care about the Future of our Breed.

Bet

Cavalier Health Day

As a PS to my Post ,Why cannot the CKCS CLUB even put a List on their WEB SITE of ALL Cavaliers who have been Bred by Club Member Breeders who have Bred Cavaliers from at 2.5 years of age, and are Clear of SM and MVD.

Is the CKCS CLUB COMMITTEE Scared to do this because they could be accused of Rocking The Boat?

This would answer the Question of how many of the Cavalier Club Members who are Cavalier Breeders are following the Breeding Guideline Recommendations as was High-Lighted at the Health Day Symposium on Saturday.

All the Cavalier Pet Owners want to know,are the Breeding Guideline Recommendations being followed by the Cavalier Breeders who are CKCS CLUB Members.

Bet

Is it 20% -50%- or maybe just 10 %,the CKCS Committee have really got to give an answer to this Question.

Margaret C
27th November 2010, 01:09 AM
It is a lot easier to when champion points when you don't follow breeding protocols.

To those breeders who are very successful in the show ring, but do not follow the protocols:

Your champions are a sad joke, and you are doing more to destroy the future generations of this breed than all of the puppy farmers, because it is your dogs that become breeding stock, generation after generation.


I received a regional club magazine today and in it there were a lot of statistics about the percentage of non-club-member breeders registering litters with the Kennel Club. These figures are being widely quoted by the apologists of the breeders you mention above.

I would like to suggest that those that are so vehement that all the problems stem from puppy farmers and not club members, that top stud dogs are now MRI'd, & they are now all breeding to the protocols should go and look up Harry Frankfurt in Wikipaedia.

I too have done a little statistics gathering in the Breed Record Supplement for the past 12 months and it makes interesting reading.

Cavalier Club committee members using young dogs from the age of 9 months, and frequently since. Two litters to the owner/breeders in the Summer Edition, and a litter registered in the latest BRS when he was still only 18 months.

Three dogs from one litter, one a Champion, one of the others a CC winner, all being used before they are two years old.

One of the most eloquent defenders of club members, a Kennel Club Accredited Breeder, regional chairman and health representative, registered two litters in Spring 2010.
One of them from her homebred 15 month dog. He was used again Autumn 2010, still under 2 years.
The other litter was by a bought in dog aged 2 years.

This is someone who has just written.........

"The MAJORITY of cavaliers bred in this country are not bred by club members but BYB's and Puppy Farmers. These people will do NOTHING towards this breed having a healthy future."

Go look up Harry Frankfurt. Those that say one thing and do another is exactly who he wrote about.

Puppy farmers exist, they do not use health testing, but is that a reason to excuse the cavalier club members that ignore the protocols?

How can club members, who say they will follow Codes of Ethics when they join a cavalier club, be promoted as being better breeders than a puppy farmer, if they do not do what they have signed up to?
Even worse they tell everyone, KC, researchers and the puppy buying public that they are doing everything they should, and blame the health testing protocols when cavalier health continues to worsen.

Are they not more despicable than BYBs when they know what a dire state the breed is in, but they choose to follow their own wishes, their own covenience, their own need to breed puppies from young improperly tested parents and sell them as top show stock for inflated prices?

It is a fact that whereas well bred dogs often figure in puppy farm pedigrees, it is unknown for top show dogs to have unknown affixes in theirs.
Puppy farmers are not responsible for the health problems in show bred dogs. Bad breeders that will not even give the health protocols a chance are.

If club breeders followed the protocols.........

1. We could say with confidence that club breeders are more responsible than puppy buyers, that their puppies cost more because they care for the parents better and only breed from them when they are older and have been checked and shown to be clear of early-onset MVD and SM.

2. We would all know for sure if the protocols are the way to breed away from the problems.
It is no good blaming the researchers for the lack of progress when guidelines have been ignored, and we have not provided the evidence needed to show whether they can really work.

anniemac
27th November 2010, 03:03 AM
Its was sad to hear my aunt and uncle tell me they fell in love with Ella and decided if they ever got another dog it would be a Cavalier, but seeing her health problems don't want to.

It is a problem and to continue to blame puppy farmers can only last so long. I wish I could say this is an isolated case but it isn't. I hope Ella lives several years but eventually she will not be with me and to know that I don't know where or who to go to find a breeder who does follow everything and it makes me sad.

To play Russian roulette with a dogs life is cruel and I hope that I will be able to one day have confidence because it be even sadder to know it was too late.

They lost their Springer spaniel a couple of years ago and said they were not going to get another dog because they retired and travel. my aunt fell in love with ella but when my uncle was finally ready for a dog, they heard about her.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Bet
27th November 2010, 02:39 PM
I received a regional club magazine today and in it there were a lot of statistics about the percentage of non-club-member breeders registering litters with the Kennel Club. These figures are being widely quoted by the apologists of the breeders you mention above.

I would like to suggest that those that are so vehement that all the problems stem from puppy farmers and not club members, that top stud dogs are now MRI'd, & they are now all breeding to the protocols should go and look up Harry Frankfurt in Wikipaedia.

I too have done a little statistics gathering in the Breed Record Supplement for the past 12 months and it makes interesting reading.

Cavalier Club committee members using young dogs from the age of 9 months, and frequently since. Two litters to the owner/breeders in the Summer Edition, and a litter registered in the latest BRS when he was still only 18 months.

Three dogs from one litter, one a Champion, one of the others a CC winner, all being used before they are two years old.

One of the most eloquent defenders of club members, a Kennel Club Accredited Breeder, regional chairman and health representative, registered two litters in Spring 2010.
One of them from her homebred 15 month dog. He was used again Autumn 2010, still under 2 years.
The other litter was by a bought in dog aged 2 years.

This is someone who has just written.........

"The MAJORITY of cavaliers bred in this country are not bred by club members but BYB's and Puppy Farmers. These people will do NOTHING towards this breed having a healthy future."

Go look up Harry Frankfurt. Those that say one thing and do another is exactly who he wrote about.

Puppy farmers exist, they do not use health testing, but is that a reason to excuse the cavalier club members that ignore the protocols?

How can club members, who say they will follow Codes of Ethics when they join a cavalier club, be promoted as being better breeders than a puppy farmer, if they do not do what they have signed up to?
Even worse they tell everyone, KC, researchers and the puppy buying public that they are doing everything they should, and blame the health testing protocols when cavalier health continues to worsen.

Are they not more despicable than BYBs when they know what a dire state the breed is in, but they choose to follow their own wishes, their own covenience, their own need to breed puppies from young improperly tested parents and sell them as top show stock for inflated prices?

It is a fact that whereas well bred dogs often figure in puppy farm pedigrees, it is unknown for top show dogs to have unknown affixes in theirs.
Puppy farmers are not responsible for the health problems in show bred dogs. Bad breeders that will not even give the health protocols a chance are.

If club breeders followed the protocols.........

1. We could say with confidence that club breeders are more responsible than puppy buyers, that their puppies cost more because they care for the parents better and only breed from them when they are older and have been checked and shown to be clear of early-onset MVD and SM.

2. We would all know for sure if the protocols are the way to breed away from the problems.
It is no good blaming the researchers for the lack of progress when guidelines have been ignored, and we have not provided the evidence needed to show whether they can really work.

Cavalier Health Day

What is it with some Cavalier Breeders that they have to Resort to a PR Exercise when-ever the Health Problems in our Cavaliers are Mentioned.

Did they not try to Collect 8,000 after the PDE TV Program to counter-act the Publicity that was given to the SM and MVD Problems in Cavaliers.

Now the same Vociferious Cavalier Breeders have moved onto the Puppy Farmers and BYB's who are Breeding Cavaliers.

This is what I just what I cannot understand , are those Cavalier Breeders Blaming the Puppy Farmers for the Cavaliers' SM and MVD Problems, or just giving the Statistics about how many Cavaliers are not being Bred by the Breeders in the Cavalier Club.

They should make up their Mind.

Margaret has given some Interesting Information about what is happening by Cavalier Breeders who are Members of the Cavalier Club ,and holding a Position in the Club.

The Blame must lie with those Cavalier Breeders in the CKCS CLUB who are not following the Breeding Guideline Recommendations for the SM and MVD Problems.

They have got the Cavaliers into the Mess they are in to-day ,so they must ,if there are to be any Cavaliers around in a few years ,do some-thing about giving Cavaliers the chance to survive, instead of not accepting the Blame about the Disasterous Health Troubles of SM and MVD in Cavaliers To-day.

Bet

RodRussell
27th November 2010, 04:32 PM
What is it with some Cavalier Breeders that they have to Resort to a PR Exercise when-ever the Health Problems in our Cavaliers are Mentioned. ...

It is not just the breeders. Worse still is that cavalier clubs try to deflect the facts about the severity of disorders like mitral valve disease. This is what the American CKCS Club publishes on its websites as its introduction to its article about MVD:


Cavalier King Charles Spaniels are generally healthy, sturdy, small dogs. However, as with many other breeds, there are health concerns. The number one health concern is a form of degenerative valve disease called Mitral Valve Disease (MVD). Please take time to review this health summary.

Cavalier Clubs throughout the world are active in fighting diseases and disorders in this beloved breed by providing health clinics, funding breed specific research and delivering breed education programs. The findings from surveys performed by the late George A. Padgett, DVM, Veterinary Pathologist & Professor Emeritus at the College of Veterinary Medicine of Michigan State University and author of Control of Canine Genetic Diseases, indicate that mixed-breed dogs have more genetic diseases than purebred dogs. There are 215 known diseases in mixed-breed dogs, with 71 percent of them having defective genes. The idea that a mixed-breed dog is likely to have fewer genetic diseases than a purebred is a misconception.http://ackcscharitabletrust.org/health/hearts.html

Got any clue from that intro as to how serious this disorder might be? Instead of informing its members and the rest of the AKC breeders about MVD, we find an attack on mixed breeds. And, keep in mind, this club refuses to tell its members anything about the MVD breeding protocol. As far as it is concerned, the protocol does not exist.