PDA

View Full Version : Have Cavaliers been Mated to King Charles Spaniels?



Bet
5th December 2010, 11:37 AM
The reason why I am asking this Question is because ,there are now many Cavaliers whose Heads look like King Charles Spaniel Heads.

Could this be the reason why some Cavalier Breeders are so Up in Arms when it mentioned that the Cavaliers' Heads are Smaller than they were around 30 years ago.

It is now said by Researchers that CM that at least 90% of Cavaliers can have CM ,which causes significant Clinical Problems ,including Pain and Progressive Neurological Defects ,including SM.

I don't know whether King Charles Spaniels also suffer from CM ,but they do suffer from SM and have a Significant Occurence of Hydrocephalus.

If there are Cavaliers being mated to KCS,could this be the Reason why there are changes in the Volume of the Occipital Skull that Result in Cerebellar Compression and Herniation in our Cavalier Breed , maybe the Cavaliers' Heads have become Smaller because of being Mated to KCS.

Food for Thought.

Bet

James
5th December 2010, 01:59 PM
I was told this by a breeder last summer, whether it is true I cannot say but in my layman's opinion many cavaliers are smaller and seem to have have shorter faces than they use to have.

Bet
5th December 2010, 02:30 PM
I was told this by a breeder last summer, whether it is true I cannot say but in my layman's opinion many cavaliers are smaller and seem to have have shorter faces than they use to have.

Have Cavaliers been Mated to King Charles Spaniels.

Thanks James for your Post, maybe others could also join in with this Discussion.

If a Breeder has mentioned this , then there must be Thoughts around about this Subject.

Could the SM Problem in Cavaliers have come from KCS Genes ,or because the Cavaliers' Heads have become Smaller by being Mated to KCS.

Bet

Nicki
5th December 2010, 04:47 PM
Bet there are so few King Charles around I think it is extremely unlikely that it would have been done to improve the Cavalier.

I know Cavaliers have been used to "improve" King Charles over the years, but there are very few King Charles breeders anyway.


I don't know that the heads are that much smaller - Cavaliers go in fashions, 10 years ago there were quite a few larger ones around, 23lb was not unusual. Now there are many more smaller ones - BUT in the UK they are still generally at the higher end or bigger than the breed standard. You would struggle to find a boy much below 18lb in the ring. Although personally I feel this is a better position for the breed, I know they are a toy spaniel but miniaturisation is not healthy for a breed.

In the US there are many more smaller ones.

Tea cup Cavaliers is a very dangerous idea - they may look cute but please do not be tempted to buy from a breeder who is deliberately trying to breed really tiny Cavaliers.


If you look at the head of Anne's son, that was really quite small in comparison with his body.

Bet
5th December 2010, 06:51 PM
Bet there are so few King Charles around I think it is extremely unlikely that it would have been done to improve the Cavalier.

I know Cavaliers have been used to "improve" King Charles over the years, but there are very few King Charles breeders anyway.


I don't know that the heads are that much smaller - Cavaliers go in fashions, 10 years ago there were quite a few larger ones around, 23lb was not unusual. Now there are many more smaller ones - BUT in the UK they are still generally at the higher end or bigger than the breed standard. You would struggle to find a boy much below 18lb in the ring. Although personally I feel this is a better position for the breed, I know they are a toy spaniel but miniaturisation is not healthy for a breed.

In the US there are many more smaller ones.

Tea cup Cavaliers is a very dangerous idea - they may look cute but please do not be tempted to buy from a breeder who is deliberately trying to breed really tiny Cavaliers.


If you look at the head of Anne's son, that was really quite small in comparison with his body.

HAVE CAVALIERS BEEN MATED TO KING CHARLES SPANIELS?

I could be wrong about this ,but are there not Cavalier Breeders who also have King Charles Spaniels?

Bet

Kate H
5th December 2010, 06:54 PM
Presumably heads work both ways, so to speak! Most of the original Cavaliers were King Charles selected for long muzzles. So they still carry many of the same genes as King Charles and if you select parents and the resulting puppies for shorter muzzles, that is what you will get. Don't think you would actually need to cross mate between the two breeds. If you did, you would also get other things from the King Charles side - as Bet noted, a tendency to hydrocephalous, and also a very different temperament. I have had a B/T who I'm fairly sure was an accidental Cavalier/Charlie cross (from a well-known breeder who kept both breeds, who asked rescue to find a home for him, which is how I came to get him), and he was very untypical of a Cavalier in many respects, especially temperament.

Kate, Oliver and Aled

sunshinekisses
5th December 2010, 09:44 PM
I thought cavaliers and king charles were originally the same breed until 1920's when some began to breed for longer noses and thus named those dogs the cavalier vs. king charles.
Nose length can change very quickly in any breed if you just select for that trait. If you want reference just look at my other love, the rottweiler dog. Nose length has changed in the last ten years. It is very popular right now for a shorter muzzle and steep stop. If there is dramatic difference from parents to litter, I would questioned if the breeding was pure.

Chamberlain
6th December 2010, 03:34 PM
Tea cup Cavaliers is a very dangerous idea - they may look cute but please do not be tempted to buy from a breeder who is deliberately trying to breed really tiny Cavaliers.

I agree with you, my mom goes to a craft store and the owner has her Cavalier in the store. My mom said that he weighs only 8 pounds and is almost a year! He does look cute, but I worry that the health problems are going to be even worse for him then a "normal sized" Cavalier.