PDA

View Full Version : Can the cavalier breed be saved?



Bet
12th December 2010, 11:28 AM
This is the Head-Lines on the Front Page of a Dog Magazine Published this Week.

The Two Health Subjects in Cavaliers mentioned are SM and MVD,included also was EFS.

Mention was made in the Article about the EBVs,now we know that because of the non-co-operation of a number of Cavalier Breeders in giving the Health Data to the Researchers for the EBVs Scheme, the Cavalier Breed has slipped from the Fore-Most Position in this and has been over-taken by the Labrador Breed, where the Information needed has been more forh-coming.

It was said in the Article ,this comment made by Dr Tom Lewis ,one of the Researchers ,that the Lack of Data is delaying the Production of the Values for SM in Cavaliers.

Should some Cavalier Breeders not be Hanging their Heads in Shame because of this Remark being made. !

The Figure of around a Third of the Cavalier Population has been thought by Researchers to be suffering from SM in varying degrees ,I am sure the Cavalier Buying Public will have noted this Remark from the Article.

Also mentioned in the Article was this Comment by Simon Swift ,European Recognized Specialist in Veterinary Cardiology and Advisor to the UK CKCS CLUB, that All Cavalier Breeders should follow the CLUB'S Breeding Guideline Recommendations to Reduce the Incidence of MVD in Cavaliers .

THAT BOTH PARENTS ARE OVER 2.5 YEARS OF AGE ,AND HAVE CLEAR HEART CERTIFICATES BEFORE BEING BRED FROM.

THE PARENTS OF BOTH THE CAVALIER BROOD BITCH AND STUD ,SHOULD ALSO HAVE BEEN CERTIFIED CLEAR OF A HEART MURMUR AT 5 YEARS OF AGE.

What have we learnt from a Post from Margaret ,that a CKCS CLUB Committee Member,is using Under-Age Cavaliers in the Breeding Program.

Should the CKCS CLUB COMMITTEE ,as a first Priority ,start putting their Own House in Order ,to at Least try and SAVE THE CAVALIER BREED by making Committee Members set an Example by following the CLUB'S Breeding Guideline Recommendations?

I would Have Thought So.

Maybe now some Cavalier Breeders will have to Realize ,that no Amount of Spinning will cover up the Fact ,that when a Questione is asked by a DOG MAGAZINE about the Health Problems in our Cavalier Breed ,and can the Breed be Saved, the Cavaliers are in Serious Trouble.

Bet

Bet
12th December 2010, 02:49 PM
This is the Head-Lines on the Front Page of a Dog Magazine Published this Week.

The Two Health Subjects in Cavaliers mentioned are SM and MVD,included also was EFS.

Mention was made in the Article about the EBVs,now we know that because of the non-co-operation of a number of Cavalier Breeders in giving the Health Data to the Researchers for the EBVs Scheme, the Cavalier Breed has slipped from the Fore-Most Position in this and has been over-taken by the Labrador Breed, where the Information needed has been more forh-coming.

It was said in the Article ,this comment made by Dr Tom Lewis ,one of the Researchers ,that the Lack of Data is delaying the Production of the Values for SM in Cavaliers.

Should some Cavalier Breeders not be Hanging their Heads in Shame because of this Remark being made. !

The Figure of around a Third of the Cavalier Population has been thought by Researchers to be suffering from SM in varying degrees ,I am sure the Cavalier Buying Public will have noted this Remark from the Article.

Also mentioned in the Article was this Comment by Simon Swift ,European Recognized Specialist in Veterinary Cardiology and Advisor to the UK CKCS CLUB, that All Cavalier Breeders should follow the CLUB'S Breeding Guideline Recommendations to Reduce the Incidence of MVD in Cavaliers .

THAT BOTH PARENTS ARE OVER 2.5 YEARS OF AGE ,AND HAVE CLEAR HEART CERTIFICATES BEFORE BEING BRED FROM.

THE PARENTS OF BOTH THE CAVALIER BROOD BITCH AND STUD ,SHOULD ALSO HAVE BEEN CERTIFIED CLEAR OF A HEART MURMUR AT 5 YEARS OF AGE.

What have we learnt from a Post from Margaret ,that a CKCS CLUB Committee Member,is using Under-Age Cavaliers in the Breeding Program.

Should the CKCS CLUB COMMITTEE ,as a first Priority ,start putting their Own House in Order ,to at Least try and SAVE THE CAVALIER BREED by making Committee Members set an Example by following the CLUB'S Breeding Guideline Recommendations?

I would Have Thought So.

Maybe now some Cavalier Breeders will have to Realize ,that no Amount of Spinning will cover up the Fact ,that when a Questione is asked by a DOG MAGAZINE about the Health Problems in our Cavalier Breed ,and can the Breed be Saved, the Cavaliers are in Serious Trouble.

Bet

CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

Just read about Program on the Dutch TV last night,the Title of the Program was ,

The End of the Pedigree Dog .

The CAVALIER and the ENGLISH BULLDOG were pictured as the most Ill under Pedigree Dogs .

There is now a Trial being started in Holland against the The Dutch Kennel Club to ask the Judge to Forbid the Breeding of Cavaliers in Holland .

The Orginization involved in this have a Proven Article which says it is Impossible to have a Cavalier who is Free from a Disease ,and for that Reason ,it is against the Dutch Animal Welfare Law to Breed with such a Dog

Since this was on the Dutch TV last night , will the Vociferious Cavalier Breeders here in Britain now accept that our Cavalier Breed is in a Mess with the Health Problems that they now have and will be Lucky to Survive unless the Breeding Guideline Recommendations are being followed to try and give Cavaliers the chance of Healthier ,Longer Lives.

Or are those Cavalier Breeders whose Egos seem to be their only Ambition to Win in the Show Ring,going to be Responsible for the Cavalier Breed becoming Extinct?

Bet

espagna
12th December 2010, 03:05 PM
CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

Just read about Program on the Dutch TV last night,the Title of the Program was ,

The End of the Pedigree Dog .

The CAVALIER and the ENGLISH BULLDOG were pictured as the most Ill under Pedigree Dogs .

There is now a Trial being started in Holland against the The Dutch Kennel Club to ask the Judge to Forbid the Breeding of Cavaliers in Holland .

The Orginization involved in this have a Proven Article which says it is Impossible to have a Cavalier who is Free from a Disease ,and for that Reason ,it is against the Dutch Animal Welfare Law to Breed with such a Dog


Bet

Bet, This is an Animal Rights Organisation, no? Esther

RodRussell
12th December 2010, 03:15 PM
This is the Head-Lines on the Front Page of a Dog Magazine Published this Week. ...

Bet, what dog magazine are you talking about?

RodRussell
12th December 2010, 03:19 PM
Bet, This is an Animal Rights Organisation, no? Esther

What difference does that make? If the Dutch court decides to ban the breed, don't blame the people who filed the lawsuit. Blame the breeders for allowing these conditions to reach the point that a healthy cavalier cannot be produced. If all of the breeders would follow the MVD breeding protocol -- which has been around for 12 to 13 years thus far -- the researchers who devised it tell us that early-onset MVD would be eliminated in the breed in as few as three generations.

The vast majority of breeders have allowed this disease to fester and worsen.

MurphysMummy
12th December 2010, 04:31 PM
What difference does that make? If the Dutch court decides to ban the breed, don't blame the people who filed the lawsuit. Blame the breeders for allowing these conditions to reach the point that a healthy cavalier cannot be produced. If all of the breeders would follow the MVD breeding protocol -- which has been around for 12 to 13 years thus far -- the researchers who devised it tell us that early-onset MVD would be eliminated in the breed in as few as three generations.

The vast majority of breeders have allowed this disease to fester and worsen.
You've got it in one Rod. Said exactly what is on my mind. If breeders love this beautiful wonderful breed so much why do they continue to breed from them knowing how ill they are. :bang: :bang: What is it going to take for people to realise what is going on?? What is it going to take for people to realise this breed is dying because of human influence? We need a miracle.

Bet
12th December 2010, 07:23 PM
Bet, what dog magazine are you talking about?

CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

Rod,

The Magazine is called DOGS TODAY,and I sure do agree with you that a good number of Cavalier Breeders have brought this on them-selves about what is being said about our Cherished Cavaliers.

If only they had Listened to the Researchers when they were being warned about MVD and SM a few years ago , but NO ,those Vociferious Cavalier Breeders were too busy trying to get us Cavalier Owners kept Quiet about the Health Problems that were Afflicting our Cavalier Breed.

Even to getting Margaret removed from the CKCS CLUB COMMITTEE,because she was warning about the Cavalier Health Problems.

Now as the Saying goes ,the Chickens are Coming Home To Roost.

Because of those Cavalier Breeders' Actions, will the Cavalier Breed have a Future.

What a Slap in the Face it is for those Cavalier Breeders who have let the Breed get into this State when the Cavalier's Health Troubles are mentioned on the Dutch TV ,and here in Britain , the Question is being asked by a DOG MAGAZINE , can the Cavalier Breed be Saved.

Surely those certain Few Cavalier Breeders must be Ashamed of Them-Selves for allowing the Decimation of our Cavalier Breed to Happen.

Bet

Karen and Ruby
12th December 2010, 09:12 PM
Ive been a reader of Dogs |Today for a couple of years now and I recall the Magazine doing a similer front cover story not long after the PDE program was shown about the Cavalier and whether it could be saved.

Its over a year later and they are having to do the same/similer article........what does that say about progress!!

I dont honestly think there is much hope for this beautiful, amazing breed of dog.

I often say that this breed is the perfect loyal companion and family dog- perfect in all but one way.... its health and the heart break it brings.
I think the Dutch have the right idea but It saddens me very much to say it!

Tania
12th December 2010, 09:25 PM
Hi Karen, Bet.....is it the January edition ?

Bet
13th December 2010, 10:33 AM
Hi Karen, Bet.....is it the January edition ?


Yes Tania,

It was in the Shops last Thursday ,and is the January 2011 Edition.

I really can't understand the Mind Set of some Cavalier Folk,there is one Cavalier Person saying that it is the Bad Publicity that is being given to the Cavaliers that is going to finish off the Breed.!!!!!

Bet

Chamberlain
13th December 2010, 03:29 PM
I think...........

If countries start outlawing the breeding of Cavaliers then how many back-alley breeders will set up shop and sell "counterfeit" Cavaliers! It would be the worst thing for the breed! Just imagine how many more problems the breed will get.

Bet
13th December 2010, 07:45 PM
I think...........

If countries start outlawing the breeding of Cavaliers then how many back-alley breeders will set up shop and sell "counterfeit" Cavaliers! It would be the worst thing for the breed! Just imagine how many more problems the breed will get.

CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

Maybe the answer is for the Lovers of Cavaliers to Stop buying Cavaliers , that could Focus the Minds of the Cavalier Breeders who are not Helping the Cavalier Breed by Breeding from Cavaliers who are not Healthy.

For this to have appeared though on a Dutch TV Program ,shows what the Health Problems the Cavaliers have , are doing to our Cavalier Breed.

Bet

Davecav
13th December 2010, 08:49 PM
If buyers boycott cavaliers, then breeders will soon go out of business.:thmbsup:

But.................. I love my cavaliers though.

anniemac
13th December 2010, 09:02 PM
I don't think the answer is for Cavalier lovers to stop buying Cavaliers. It's like people who think the answer to shelter overpopulation is to stop breeding dogs altogether. People will always want a Pedigree dog and I know I will always want a Cavalier.

I am not saying there is not a problem with both issues, but the best way is to support those breeders who are scanning and following MVD protocols and other health tests. I can't imagine there are no breeders who are not doing this. I don't know what has been done in the past but it's time to start with the future. I simply can not give up hope for this breed. I know for a fact there are breeders having their dogs scanned and graded. I was at a dog show and there was a regional club group there and I overheard them talking about going together to scan. They were not saying this for show because I had to ask them what they were talking about. If one person sets an example, then others follow.

I don't think breeders should blame others and I don't think pet owners should blame all breeders. I do think something should be done, but banning a whole breed is not the solution. We all need to stop blaming altogether because what does that do? You want people to stop hoping for things like Rupert's Fund to help the future? This is what gives owners, like me, hope. We need to recognize there is a problem, accept it, do something about it, and go forward. Please do not give up hope.

anniemac
13th December 2010, 09:11 PM
I'm sorry I just get upset. It is not just the Cavaliers that hurt, it's the pet owners who fall in love with someone and see them go through pain. I can not tell you how many times I have cried. If a breeder does not care about health tests or what the Cavalier feels and the pain it can have, then they should think of the person whose life is full of hurt from loving a dog that they wish they could save.

James
13th December 2010, 09:34 PM
If the informed (us I hope) stop buying Cavaliers it will make no difference to the unscrupulous breeders and the people who breed without any knowledge of what they are doing.

Last year when out with Ben I was approached in Leven Scotland by a young couple with the tiniest Blenheim bitch that I have ever seen, they said that they were looking for an equally small stud dog so they could breed from their bitch, which they had been given by an aunt.
When I mentioned MVD and SM and the breeding protocols I was met with blank stares, they did not know what I was talking about. I felt so sorry for the dog, I could have punched them right there, they were only out to make money.



The people who go and buy a Cavalier for the first time without researching the breed will be enough to keep them going.

Davecav
13th December 2010, 10:27 PM
I don't really want cavaliers to stop being bred from.:o but on the other hand it doesn't help when buyers purchase pups from the unscrupulous. If people really did stop buying from them, then they would stop breeding.

Zumie05
14th December 2010, 12:07 AM
You have to also remember that the breeder is only 50% responsible for the heartache. Buyers must do their research and be aware of conditions of dogs before making a purchase.

A buyer may go and buy a Cavalier on a whim, look for the cheapest price, and then suffer the consequences.

More educated buyers will hurt those breeders doing wrong and help the whole process.

So sad what this breed is plagued with :(

ByFloSin
14th December 2010, 11:25 AM
The only way I can see to get healthy Cavaliers is to make it illegal to breed from non satisfactorily tested dogs and bitches.

I no longer want to know when people ask me to advise them on finding a puppy because they don't take the sensible advice I give them. The last 3 or 4 that I tried to guide in the right direction resulted in me spending time and money finding them a responsibly bred pup at a reasonable price, when either they would not go out of Birmingham to see a litter or could find one in the paper for half the price.

The thing I object to most of all is when all breeders get blamed for the sick dogs these people buy and by some members here who tar all of us with the same brush.

For anyone who does not know, I stopped breeding in 1992, then tried to restart 18 months ago because I had a positive tested bitch capable of making a healthy contribution to the breed. No pups despite trying 2 different dogs, but I will try twice more with her. So far she has cost somewhere in the region of £2,000 for health testing, reprovet fees, stud fees and travel.

What does not help is being lumped together with PFs and BYBs and being accused of overpricing by those either too stupid or too ignorant to appreciate the difference. Bet and Rod, all breeders are not the same and almost all that I know do test, then have to compete against the irresponsible to find good homes for their pups.

sins
14th December 2010, 12:42 PM
I have very grave doubts about the future viability of the breed.
Allow me to be brutally honest and explain why..
The crisis within the cavalier breed has been precipitated unfortunately before an effective and workable solution to the problems has been found.Technology has enabled the diagnosis of conditions like SM but technology has not as yet reached the point where it enables a breeder to breed away from it with any degree of certainty.
Research is making tremendous strides in understanding the nature and origin of the condition.Certainly Mri scanning is becoming increasingly differential and gives more helpful information to a breeder about the true status of their breeding stock.
So lets take a look at the situation:
The Foetal tissue research project shows 100% of whelps affected by CM
Low cost scans are consistently showing roughly 50% of cavaliers affected with SM
While some kennels have excellent heart lines,we're told over and over again that 50% of cavaliers will have a heart murmur by age 5.
Almost every breeder you meet will tell you that they're a responsible health focused breeder.It's very simple to convince yourself that you are in fact one...even if you've mated a 12 month old dog to an 8 month old bitch on her first season...a baby for Godsake who should be in her basket with her chew toys,not raising a bloody litter!!!!
However there are increasing numbers of breeders who have invested a lot of resources,money,time and hard work in developing and testing their breeding stock,who don't breed from young animals and some who did this even before Pedigree dogs exposed hit the world.
Despite the progress,there are too few of those breeders who go that extra mile and are committed to continuing their hard work.
There are too few truly clear stud dogs out there over the age of 2.5 years entering the genepool.Breeders are still flocking in their droves to the young sires,either because they're the best that's on offer in terms of health or they offer the best chance of a win in the showring.
How many A to A matings are being carried out?
A to C even?
A to D????
A or C to unscanned?
Unscanned to unscanned?
Its all very well telling people to look for parents over the age of 2.5 who are clear of this disease,that illness and to look at the certs..
You'd be forgiven for thinking that pet buyers will be tripping over health certs from
all the responsible breeders out there...that rain forests are being cleared to produce the paper for all the certs that you're going to be given.
The reality is this:
Pet buyers still are not being given a real choice when it comes to buying a puppy from health tested parents. The pups from A to A matings are being bought by OTHER BREEDERS to incorporate into their own breeding programmes.Breeders are keeping their own bitches from such matings.Pet buyers will be very very lucky to get such a pup.
How can you save a breed when so many breeders don't feel they even need to scan? So many are still breeding blind...and when it comes to understanding the SM situation,too many are still lost in space..overwhelmed by the complexity of all the terminology and the medical jargon.
Others are just too lazy to try and claim they'll test when the researchers(or an alien in a UFO perhaps) presents them with all the answers.
There's just too much reluctance to change the custom and practice in breeding which has stood for decades.
Too much reluctance by the kennel Club to realise the urgency of the situation.
Too much delay in rolling out the KC/BVA schemes
Reluctance of breeders to submit their scans to the AHT...
Inability of the breeders to self regulate...
Lack of information for breeders who want older healthy stud dogs..
The list goes on and on.
As for tarring all breeders with the same brush,frankly there's a few breeders who could do with a second coat!
Sins

Bet
14th December 2010, 12:42 PM
The only way I can see to get healthy Cavaliers is to make it illegal to breed from non satisfactorily tested dogs and bitches.

I no longer want to know when people ask me to advise them on finding a puppy because they don't take the sensible advice I give them. The last 3 or 4 that I tried to guide in the right direction resulted in me spending time and money finding them a responsibly bred pup at a reasonable price, when either they would not go out of Birmingham to see a litter or could find one in the paper for half the price.

The thing I object to most of all is when all breeders get blamed for the sick dogs these people buy and by some members here who tar all of us with the same brush.

For anyone who does not know, I stopped breeding in 1992, then tried to restart 18 months ago because I had a positive tested bitch capable of making a healthy contribution to the breed. No pups despite trying 2 different dogs, but I will try twice more with her. So far she has cost somewhere in the region of £2,000 for health testing, reprovet fees, stud fees and travel.

What does not help is being lumped together with PFs and BYBs and being accused of overpricing by those either too stupid or too ignorant to appreciate the difference. Bet and Rod, all breeders are not the same and almost all that I know do test, then have to compete against the irresponsible to find good homes for their pups.


CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED ?

Thank You all for joining in this Discussion.

I really do think that it's going to be difficult to find the Answer to the Horrendous Health Problems Afflicting our Cavaliers.

This is a Further Comment from the Article from my Previous Post ,and is sure Food For Thought.

This Lady ,who loves Cavaliers as much as we all do on this List, is now starting on a New Project to create a Healthier Cavalier Type Breed ,she had bought her Cavalier from a Cavalier Breeder who had carried out the Health Tests ,yet her Cavalier still developed Health Problems .

Because she and many other Cavalier Owners now have doubts about ever having another Cavalier ,whether they could put themselves the Heart Ache and Many Tears they have had when their Cavaliers died from the Health Problems in our Cherished Breed ,she has wondered about if the Things we Lovers of Cavaliers Love about our Cavaliers could be Retained without their Health Problems .

She has now Consulted with Cavalier Breeders , Genetic Experts and Vets about Out Crossing Cavaliers with another Breed.

She knows that other Hidden and Unknown Health Problems could Appear, but she will be keeping Health Records on her Breeding Programs about this happening.

What the Out Come will be this Lady hopes ,will be a Breed that will Eventually Resemble Tradional Toy Spaniels ,OK ,they won't be Cavaliers ,but at last we Cavalier Owners who have had the Heart Break of having our Beloved Cavaliers dying at such young ages ,could have the chance of having a 4 Legged Friend who has the Lovely Nature of a Cavalier ,but can live Longer , Healthier Lives.

I think the Cavalier Breed is now at the Point when there is not much more that can be being done about their Health Problems .

The MVD Problem is not improving because there are probably so many Cavalier Carriers around now with the MVD Genes, shortly it will maybe being said about the SM Problem, so it's no use Living in a Fool's Paradise and kidding our -selves that All Will be Well for our Cavaliers.

This will be a Bitter Pill for Many Cavalier Folk to Swallow, but have Cavaliers to be Out Crossed with another Breed in-order to have some-thing like a Cavalier.

I think it's got to be that or the Cavalier Breed will become Extinct.

There is no-body who Loves Cavaliers More than I do , but their Suffering because of their Health Problems has got to Stop ,if this has to be the Way Forward, the So Be IT.

Bet

Reptigirl
14th December 2010, 05:57 PM
I think what the breed needs is a break threw for genetic testing as well as more breeders who test!

Where I live I can find dozens of Cavalier "breeders" who don't test! I have emailed breeder after breeder to find a new puppy but little to NO testing is being done. All seem to have excuses. I have found a few breeders who heart, hip & eye test but I still have been unable to find a breeder who MRI tests. Now I understand it is VERY expensive to MRI scan. Breeders are looking at being in debt $5000 or more from ONE breeding dog if they are to purchase from a breeder who tests, then to continue testing themselves and following protocol. Now double that for a pair of dogs. Very few "breeders" are willing to be in debt $10,000 or more from just ONE pair of dogs. PLUS waiting 2 1/2 to 3 years to breed and possible recoup some of the initial cost. The HIGH cost scares breeders away from proper testing. I don't agree with it at all BUT it is true.

Then you look at the pet owner side. I have been working retail with pets & supplies since 2001. If i have learned just ONE thing about the buying public. IN the MASSES the people always care about the cost. You will always have a select few who understand why you may be paying more from one place then another but as a whole people always look for a lower price. Breeders who test are forced to charge much higher prices to recover their cost ($2000 or more per puppy). Breeders who don't test can charge as little as a couple hundred. Uninformed people will generally go towards a lower prices

We really need to come up with SM testing that will lower the price for breeders. Then more breeders can test and then prices of tested puppies can go down.

Also I think the kennel club should open the registries to allow a SMALL number of dogs from another breed to be crossed in. Then we can increase the gene pool. I know you run the risk of adding other health issues but with a breed with as much trouble as a Cavalier their are not many other options.

Just my 2 cents on the topic..

anniemac
14th December 2010, 07:41 PM
So much to say, but here goes.

I keep thinking of the history of the two cavalier clubs in the usa. The ckcsc usa feared (correct me if I'm wrong because this is from what's on the internet and not a reliable source) that if the ckcs became recognized by the akc then it would cause the breed to be popular and feared others would not go by their "strict code of ethics"

Well if that's true then what they predicted is true so now please abide by this code, make it stricter, and regulate the members.Shannon you are right and that there will always be uneducated people who go for what's cheap. What's cheap does not pay off in the long run if you factor in medical costs for an unhealthy dog.

There are breeders in the us that do scan and I would go through the clubs and on rods website www.cavalierhealth.org to find the tricks to locate them. Sad but there are many more that don't and it should be easier for a pet buyer to find these breeders.

Cost for breeders. There are low cost mri in the us. I don't think its just the cost that is a concern. I talked to a breeder whose friend took his male to be scanned and he did not make it. That is rare, but some know that there is a chance.

I disagree that expensive means better. As I have said before, I found a breeder that has a great website with all these claims and her cavaliers are $3000. People can think she is a "selective" breeder but there are no health tests to back up these claims.

Yes, I think it can be saved but they can not be the popular dogs and expect them to be healthy. Sad that you may have to spend a lot of money but I think its time for the clubs to regulate the breeders and be selective. I know money is a motivator and I don't know what doing this will cause, but they should stand out. Have a name so people understand why these cavaliers are different. Start new and be selective.

If they fear the breed will go extinct, well its not getting better. I read that barrons book last night and it talked about mvd. I don't have it in front of me but the irony was how it said that the future of the breed and this devostating condition could be helped if breeders waited until 5 years etc. It said since the condition presents itself early when the dog still can be breed, then they can control this. I have read what people have posted and it seems many are not doing this.

All breeders are not the same and I feel in order to save the breed, there should be pressure from owners, other breeders and even seperation. If the few A dogs are kept by breeders, then sad for us, but better for the breed.

I also went to a show and heard someone talk about how great a breeder was and with 6 generations the breeder had them go do something after they die (can't remember the name) and are all healthy. Yeah right. When asked if she mri her dogs, no. Any breeder that I trust would never say this.

I feel for those breeders that I heard talk about going together to get their dogs scanned. Yes, they are selective to who they give their puppies to, they don't advertise because they don't need to, but they are out there. The future depends on them, us, spreading the word, doing something, talking about it, taking responsibility, and leading an example.

I say all this but I really don't know where to begin. However, talking to others, going to shows, getting involved is a start I guess.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Margaret C
15th December 2010, 01:07 AM
I. Now I understand it is VERY expensive to MRI scan. Breeders are looking at being in debt $5000 or more from ONE breeding dog if they are to purchase from a breeder who tests, then to continue testing themselves and following protocol. Now double that for a pair of dogs. Very few "breeders" are willing to be in debt $10,000 or more from just ONE pair of dogs. PLUS waiting 2 1/2 to 3 years to breed and possible recoup some of the initial cost. The HIGH cost scares breeders away from proper testing. I don't agree with it at all BUT it is true.



Financial cost may be a consideration, but when you get down to basics it is not a valid reason to breed without testing for the known inherited conditions.

Breeding without testing is the action of someone who will knowingly take the risk that the cavaliers they produce will suffer.

The owner won't feel the pain, the dog will.

Most cavalier puppies are sold as family pets, so the breeder will not see the dog in pain, they will not pay for drugs to ease the suffering, or weep when the dog is put to sleep too soon.

Don't accept excuses from breeders that do not test ........Nobody is compelled to breed. The owner has a choice, the dog doesn't.

The cavalier world will not stop if individual breeders delay a year or so longer to mate their dogs.

If a breeder is not able to afford the tests, then they can choose to not breed. If they breed without testing.......... then they are driven by money and do not care that cavaliers will suffer.
They are no better than Puppy Farmers.

Nobody is compelled to use a puppy dog as a sire. If they cannot afford to wait till the dog is mature and health checked, then they are driven by money, not by love of the breed.
They are no better than Puppy Farmers.

Nobody is compelled to breed from an underage bitch. If they cannot wait for a cavalier to be old enough to be tested according to the health protocols, then they are driven by money, and their puppies should not be sold as companion animals.
They are no better than Puppy Farmers

Can the cavalier breed be saved?

Well, with idiot breeders that cannot take in the significance of the Foetal Tissue Research results and the high percentage of breeding dogs affected at a young age, I find it really hard to stay hopeful.

Karlin
15th December 2010, 01:26 AM
:xctly: Agree with that, Margaret.

Also there is no way any breeder anywhere is paying $5,000 to scan a single dog. Most good breeders do not breed their own females to their own studs so they don't carry the costs of both scans (if they keep them; many and probably most do not). Low cost testing is increasingly available -- widely across the UK (for as little as £100 -- under $150), and in numerous regions of the US (ranging from around $500-1000 per scan). Even at full cost in the US, scans would be around $1000-2000, not $5,000. That can be spread across several litters to absorb some of the cost. Most good breeders do not charge any significant premium for puppies from scanned dogs, bred according to the protocol. And any reputable breeder should have been breeding at 2.5 minimum, to tested dogs, for heart health for going on two decades. Breed clubs could be pushing for low cost scans in their own regions and raising funds similar to Rupert's Fund to scan dogs. Rupert's Fund as it is will already pay for some 50 dogs to be scanned. RF could have covered the cost of scanning every significant, active sire in the UK right now if breeders wanted to have their costs covered.

Yes, there are costs -- but if they are not managable a person should not be breeding or needs to select another breed if they cannot breed responsibly and with the breed's very survival foremost.

And I agree wholeheartedly that pet buyers are 50% of the problem-- and the solution. Too many too often choose a breeder based on cost and fast availability of a puppy. That directly damages the breed and increases their own risk of having a poorly adult dog. :(

If breeders would actually submit the scan results they already have to researchers, there will quickly come a point where they do not need to scan -- especially if/when the genome work is successfully finished. They can use the estimated breeding values/ genetic breeding values to select appropriate mates. There are hundreds and hundreds of scans done but not submitted out there, all over the world, for dogs with pedigrees that would help researchers construct the EBV database.

My heart hopes there will be a future for the breed but having seen breeders in action and knowing some of what they really say and do (set against what they say they do publicly) -- my head thinks unless there is significant, legislated, mandatory change to breeding practice, the breed has little chance of lasting more than a few more decades before becoming untouchable due to health considerations. I have my little 'cavalier medications box' full of MVD meds and pain meds for SM. My friend who boards small dogs says it is the cavaliers that are the breed that always comes with medications -- for hearts, epilepsy, SM....

I understand a lawsuit is being considered (or has been taken?) in the Netherlands against the kennel club there to ban the breeding of cavaliers on cruelty grounds because MVD and SM are now so endemic in the breed. The argument is that outcrossing and a rebuilding of the breed is needed.

love2driveinct
15th December 2010, 04:36 AM
And I agree wholeheartedly that pet buyers are 50% of the problem-- and the solution. Too many too often choose a breeder based on cost and fast availability of a puppy. That directly damages the breed and increases their own risk of having a poorly adult dog. :(



As a new Cavalier owner who just recently went through this process, I can tell you that it is much harder than it sounds. In the internet age, we rely on being able to access information readily and easily. I am an educated person who does not mind the research required, and with the means to spend whatever it takes to get a healthy puppy, but if there are breeders out there who truly do 100% of what has been recommended here, then they are not making themselves known.

So yes, I realize that people like me are part of the problem... although I would guess I am not a typical Cavalier buyer and not a typical puppy buyer at all. I spent months researching the perfect breed for my family, and then countless hours reading health information, posts on this website, and information on breeders. But yet while I ended up getting my puppy from a breeder I feel very comfortable with, I realize I still took a risk when MRI scans were not being done.

It wasn't for lack of trying... many emails were sent, questions asked, and websites carefully scrutinized. If the best breeders -- the ones who truly run all the right tests and orchestrate the best matings -- are proud of what they do and have nothing to hide, then why are they so hard to find?

Reptigirl
15th December 2010, 05:42 AM
It wasn't for lack of trying... many emails were sent, questions asked, and websites carefully scrutinized. If the best breeders -- the ones who truly run all the right tests and orchestrate the best matings -- are proud of what they do and have nothing to hide, then why are they so hard to find?

I can't agree more!!! I am guilty of falling for a puppy from a less then ethical breeder. But I don't understand why GOOD breeders are SO hard to find. I keep hearing rumors of great breeders who test in the USA but they are not easy to find. Even the person of the Cavalier Rescue of the USA that I spoke with briefly in an email stated that she didn't think ANY breeders MRI tested there dogs!

And Karlin... I didn't mean breeders spending $5000 on a single scan. What I was trying to say was:
If a "Good" breeder can even find and good quality puppy from tested parents (In the USA anyways). They are looking at spending $3000 or more on just the puppy.

Then the cost of raising it for 2 1/2 to 3 years. Yearly hip, heart & eye testing. Plus the normal cost of raising a dog (vet care, vaccines, food, supplements, etc) Maybe another $1000 or more.

Then the cost of at least 1 MRI scan at 2 1/2 years. About $1000 (I know low cost MRI's are available but in reality they are not easily accessible for all breeders. ESPECIALLY in the USA. I drove over 8 hours round trip and paid over $1500 just to find a place familiar with Cavaliers to get an MRI done.)

That alone is at least $5000. Then if you have a lone female you are looking at stud fees. Cost of raising the puppies properly (vet care, vaccines, food, toys, etc).

When all is said and done you could easily be in excess of $5000 on 1 dog. Then what happens if all is said and done and they have SM or MVD? Then you start over. OR they test okay and you only get a litter of 1 pup?

I think ALL breeders SHOULD test. I'm just pointing out why it is so hard to get breeders to test. Sadly many people breed dogs not only for the enjoyment of the breed but also the money involved. Even if it is just to break even at the end. VERY few breeders are going to breed JUST for the love of the breed and risk investing thousands of dollars and many years of there time to get no where.

sunshinekisses
15th December 2010, 07:01 AM
....well I had written a really long reply and lost it in cyberspace.

Here is a small portion of my thoughts: We don't need to cross breed as we have enough healthy lines to go forward but what we do need is more information sharing. One huge thing I found was U.S.A. cavalier breeders claim they do testing and have test result available for buyer but don't send in the information to our OFA health data base. I found it odd because my other breed of dogs this is considered a huge red flag to puppy buyers. It makes me think breeders may be faking health documents and perhaps health issues are bigger than we think.

With breeders that I interviewed most said their breeding stock did not have symptoms of SM and if they did they would not be bred. And that cost of MRI was too much for a healthy dog. I only found one breeder with a litter that had used a MRI cleared stud. The bitch was 18 months at time of puppy sale with no health clearances, the breeder stated she knew her lines and they were healthy. Her price for pet quality pup was $2500.

Bet
15th December 2010, 12:42 PM
....well I had written a really long reply and lost it in cyberspace.

Here is a small portion of my thoughts: We don't need to cross breed as we have enough healthy lines to go forward but what we do need is more information sharing. One huge thing I found was U.S.A. cavalier breeders claim they do testing and have test result available for buyer but don't send in the information to our OFA health data base. I found it odd because my other breed of dogs this is considered a huge red flag to puppy buyers. It makes me think breeders may be faking health documents and perhaps health issues are bigger than we think.

With breeders that I interviewed most said their breeding stock did not have symptoms of SM and if they did they would not be bred. And that cost of MRI was too much for a healthy dog. I only found one breeder with a litter that had used a MRI cleared stud. The bitch was 18 months at time of puppy sale with no health clearances, the breeder stated she knew her lines and they were healthy. Her price for pet quality pup was $2500.

CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

Can I start off by saying that there are No Healthy Lines in our Cavalier Breed ,at least here in Britain.

I am mentioning the MVD Problem , even the Long Lived Cavaliers will have ever chance of being Carriers of the MVD GENES ,so it's no use Kidding our -selves that this is not a Fact, ask the Cardiologists about this.

There are some Cavalier Breeders being Honest about the Health of their Cavaliers and doing every-thing in their Power to Assist the Researchers with the Information that is needed, but unfortunately , there seem to be the Vociferous Elderly Cavalier Breeders who think that there is no Health Problem in Cavaliers and seem to be bent on Thwarting the Researchers any chance they can get.

An example of this, I believe that a Couple of CKCS CLUBS are using delaying tactics in getting the Recommendations for MRI Scanning off the Ground.

What's their Problem, are they Scared that once they MRI Scan their Cavalier Breeding Stock, and that Information is passed on for the EBV Scheme, then nothing can be being Hidden about the Health Problems in Cavalier Breeding Stock.

As Margaret says with Idiot Breeders who have not the Sense to understand what it means ,that 100% of the Cavalier Whelps Researched have CM,it is time that for the Cavalier Breed to be Saved and the Future of our Cavaliers be put in the Hands of the Researchers ,and not Cavalier Committees who just don't appear to able to move with the Scientific Times , it is those Committees who are going Finish Cavaliers.

I would just say ,it is Time for those Folk to Move Out Now ,let the Researchers take over, and give our Cherished Cavaliers the Chance of Healthier, Longer Lives, and we Owners of Cavaliers not the Many Tears and Heart Ache we have had watching our Beloved Cavaliers suffer and Die and such Young Ages because of the Health Problems Afflicting our Breed.

Bet

anniemac
15th December 2010, 01:59 PM
U
As a new Cavalier owner who just recently went through this process, I can tell you that it is much harder than it sounds. In the internet age, we rely on being able to access information readily and easily. I am an educated person who does not mind the research required, and with the means to spend whatever it takes to get a healthy puppy, but if there are breeders out there who truly do 100% of what has been recommended here, then they are not making themselves known.

So yes, I realize that people like me are part of the problem... although I would guess I am not a typical Cavalier buyer and not a typical puppy buyer at all. I spent months researching the perfect breed for my family, and then countless hours reading health information, posts on this website, and information on breeders. But yet while I ended up getting my puppy from a breeder I feel very comfortable with, I realize I still took a risk when MRI scans were not being done.

It wasn't for lack of trying... many emails were sent, questions asked, and websites carefully scrutinized. If the best breeders -- the ones who truly run all the right tests and orchestrate the best matings -- are proud of what they do and have nothing to hide, then why are they so hard to find?

Couldn't agree more.


Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

anniemac
15th December 2010, 02:12 PM
I just want to clear up that cavalier rescue USA is a non profit organisation that the dogs are surrendered by owners.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

anniemac
15th December 2010, 02:30 PM
Cavalier rescue USA has their hands full trying to Foster, place the dogs to families that are needed, and raise money for surgeries some of the Foster's need before being placed. Any good breeder would want their dog back before it ended up in rescue so I am not surprised by what you found out.



Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

anniemac
15th December 2010, 02:33 PM
I would like to add that rescues are wonderful and they need good families but with a rescue there is a risk of health problems but it takes kind people who are open to older dogs that want to give them a second chance and a good home

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

love2driveinct
15th December 2010, 03:27 PM
Although I think this forum is absolutely wonderful, the vast majority of people looking for a new dog or puppy are not going to visit it. However, I do think Facebook has the power to reach far more people. I noticed that "someone" started a Facebook group called "Save the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel". Maybe if we can post facts and links to articles and basically just spread awareness to the public, we can get the word out.

This will probably scare some people away from getting a Cavalier, but that's not actually a bad thing... if the demand goes down, then maybe PMs & BYBs will slow or halt their operations or switch to another breed (sorry, I hate to think of that alternative, too). But the idea would be to reach people who are going to get one anyway, or know someone who is, and make sure they know what they are getting themselves into and what steps can be taken to improve the odds of less heartbreak down the road.

It's so important that the information be accurate, though, so if anyone posts something we should be sure that it is correct and can be backed up by research, evidence, or at least written by someone proven to be a trusted authority on the subject.

Chamberlain
15th December 2010, 03:44 PM
Couldn't agree more.


I also agree with Anniemac and love2driveinct and Reptigirl.

I only found ONE breeder near me that was reputable when I was looking to buy a Cavalier. The rest were at pet stores or WAY beyond my price range. And even then the breeders didn't sound reputable! Where are the good breeders? I think the USA Cavalier club should step in and form a registry with breeders who ONLY have dogs that are MRI tested, heart & eye tested ect...

I made the breeder go with me to vets office and paid for a vets visit to have Chamberlain looked at before I bought him. I wanted to make sure he was healthy puppy before I paid for him. I know alot of the health problems don't show up right away but I wanted to make sure everything else looked good. I met him at his house and saw his dogs and saw the certs for his "parents" but for all I know they could have been false. I had to trust that he was on the up and up.

Margaret C
15th December 2010, 03:45 PM
I would like to add that rescues are wonderful and they need good families but with a rescue there is a risk of health problems but it takes kind people who are open to older dogs that want to give them a second chance and a good home

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Nowadays I would not be too sure there is any greater risk of health problems in an older rescue dog.

We can see from the posts on this forum that there are quite a few three to four year old cavaliers showing up with severe SM symptoms.
I have had phone calls from owners that have been forced to put their less-than-one-year-old puppy to sleep, because of uncontrollable pain.

I think it is more than possible that a vet-checked older rescue cavalier would have less health problems than a carelessly bred puppy.

Bet
15th December 2010, 07:40 PM
Nowadays I would not be too sure there is any greater risk of health problems in an older rescue dog.

We can see from the posts on this forum that there are quite a few three to four year old cavaliers showing up with severe SM symptoms.
I have had phone calls from owners that have been forced to put their less-than-one-year-old puppy to sleep, because of uncontrollable pain.

I think it is more than possible that a vet-checked older rescue cavalier would have less health problems than a carelessly bred puppy.

CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED ?

Just had a Think about this ,why should so many Owners of Cavaliers who are not Members of the UK CKCS CLUB, have to take Lectures from those CKCS CLUB Committee Members, who are so set in their ways and are not Listening to the Advice being given by the Researchers about how to Tackle the SM and MVD Problems in our Cavalier Breed,who gives those Committee Members the Right to say what should be done or not done for Cavaliers, the Non-Members will far Out Number the Members of the CKCS CLUB.

Bet

Bet
16th December 2010, 12:36 PM
CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED ?

Just had a Think about this ,why should so many Owners of Cavaliers who are not Members of the UK CKCS CLUB, have to take Lectures from those CKCS CLUB Committee Members, who are so set in their ways and are not Listening to the Advice being given by the Researchers about how to Tackle the SM and MVD Problems in our Cavalier Breed,who gives those Committee Members the Right to say what should be done or not done for Cavaliers, the Non-Members will far Out Number the Members of the CKCS CLUB.

Bet


CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?


This is a Big Question for our Cavaliers at the Moment.

In the Shallow World of Exhibition ,there is always the BREED MAFIA .

Usually a Group of Elderly Women with the Occasional Male that is Steadfast in it's Vow ,even when Wrong , they are Self proclaimed Experts in Nothing who Proclaim there is Nothing Anyone can Teach us about this Breed.

I will Substitute Breed for the Cavalier Breed.

Is this now being Proved by the Cavalier Breeder Mafia in Delaying the MRI Scheme from getting Started.?

They are Preventing the Cavalier Breeders who wish to take Part in the Scheme from doing so, they are Preventing the Information from getting to EBV Researchers .

They are Preventing the Publication of Full Results .

They are Delaying Honesty and Full Disclosure of the SM Problem ,is this why the Breeder Mafia is Running Scared about this being Dsiclosed.!!

The Breeder Mafia is Preventing a Standardised Scheme that Permits Everyone an Informed Choice of Cavalier Stud Dogs and Health Testing Puppy Breeders

The BREEDER MAFIA is PREVENTING THOSE TRUE LOVERS of OUR CAVALIER BREED who want Cavaliers to Survive and have a Future by trying to Breed Cavaliers away from SM and MVD from doing this.

Is it now time we who Love the Cavalier Breed Woke up to the Fact about what is Happening and make Protests to the Kennel Club?

Could we perhaps Start a Petition on this List and all of us who Wish to Save our Cavaliers any -more Suffering from SM and MVD Sign it?

Bet

Bet
17th December 2010, 07:19 PM
CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?


This is a Big Question for our Cavaliers at the Moment.

In the Shallow World of Exhibition ,there is always the BREED MAFIA .

Usually a Group of Elderly Women with the Occasional Male that is Steadfast in it's Vow ,even when Wrong , they are Self proclaimed Experts in Nothing who Proclaim there is Nothing Anyone can Teach us about this Breed.

I will Substitute Breed for the Cavalier Breed.

Is this now being Proved by the Cavalier Breeder Mafia in Delaying the MRI Scheme from getting Started.?

They are Preventing the Cavalier Breeders who wish to take Part in the Scheme from doing so, they are Preventing the Information from getting to EBV Researchers .

They are Preventing the Publication of Full Results .

They are Delaying Honesty and Full Disclosure of the SM Problem ,is this why the Breeder Mafia is Running Scared about this being Dsiclosed.!!

The Breeder Mafia is Preventing a Standardised Scheme that Permits Everyone an Informed Choice of Cavalier Stud Dogs and Health Testing Puppy Breeders

The BREEDER MAFIA is PREVENTING THOSE TRUE LOVERS of OUR CAVALIER BREED who want Cavaliers to Survive and have a Future by trying to Breed Cavaliers away from SM and MVD from doing this.

Is it now time we who Love the Cavalier Breed Woke up to the Fact about what is Happening and make Protests to the Kennel Club?

Could we perhaps Start a Petition on this List and all of us who Wish to Save our Cavaliers any -more Suffering from SM and MVD Sign it?

Bet

CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

Just noticed the List of The CKCS CLUB POINTS TROPHY WINNERSfor 2010

If all those Cavalier Winners have been Bred by following the Breeding Guideline Recomendations, have been Health Tested ,then just maybe the Cavalier Breed will have a Chance of Surviving.

Will their Health Results also be being given along with their Trophy Wins?

Hopefully the Answer is Yes.

Bet

Margaret C
17th December 2010, 09:16 PM
CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

Just noticed the List of The CKCS CLUB POINTS TROPHY WINNERSfor 2010

If all those Cavalier Winners have been Bred by following the Breeding Guideline Recomendations, have been Health Tested ,then just maybe the Cavalier Breed will have a Chance of Surviving.

Will their Health Results also be being given along with their Trophy Wins?

Hopefully the Answer is Yes.

Bet

I think that is really wishful thinking.


I have just written a new blog................

"Is the BVA/KC MRI Scheme an Official Secret?"

MurphysMummy
17th December 2010, 09:28 PM
Hi
Bought the issue of Dogs Today magazine, just to read the article. Must I say I shed a few tears. How can people even think a tiny thought or even say.. "Is It time to give up on the Cavalier" (contents)
This is totally heart-breaking for all of us here, no matter how much discussion and thought, I feel horrible knowing I cannot help - We honestly need a miracle!! :(:(

Bet
18th December 2010, 10:40 AM
I think that is really wishful thinking.


I have just written a new blog................

"Is the BVA/KC MRI Scheme an Official Secret?"


CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED ?

Just read your Blog Margaret, it really gets to the Nitty Gritty about what I previously Posted about how the BREED CAVALIER MAFIA is trying to put a Stop to the Cavalier Breed having the Chance of a Healthier Future, even to having a Future at all.

Is there Any Way, we Folk who are the Lovers of Cavaliers can Stop them from doing any more Damage to the Cavalier Breed .

Would it not be Possible to Send a Petition to the Kennel Club Showing what is Happening in the Cavalier World here in Britain at the Moment?

I am sure the Kennel Club will be interested to know how their Plans for their EBV Scheme are being Thwarted by a Certain Few in the CKCS CLUB'S COMMITTEES.

If even not a Petition ,a Letter telling the Kennel Club about how Many Lovers of the Cavalier Breed are Distressed about how some Prominant Cavalier Club Members are trying to Hold Back the the Advancement of the Research into the Health Problems in our Cavaliers.

Many of us who Love the Cavalier Breed are not UK CKCS CLUB MEMBERS , but why should we be Dictated to by a Few CKCS CLUB MEMBERS who seem to be not interested in the Cavaliers' Health Problems,including not Following the Breeding Guideline Recommendations.

Is not time our Voices were being Heard?

Bet

Davecav
18th December 2010, 12:24 PM
Can't they just be ignored and forgotten about? :?

It has already been said they are such a small group of people after all who are specialist breeders for the show ring.
It's like having a go at the top horse racing stables, and blaming all the diseases of all horses on them - no ordinary person would get the chance to buy a foal from any of those stables so does anyone care what they do? (as long as cruelty isn't involved)

At the end of the day most of us don't buy puppies from these people anyway as they trade amongst themselves. It's breeders in general that supply the pet market. that need to clean up their act. Anyway that is how I see it.#

Bet
18th December 2010, 02:51 PM
Can't they just be ignored and forgotten about? :?

It has already been said they are such a small group of people after all who are specialist breeders for the show ring.
It's like having a go at the top horse racing stables, and blaming all the diseases of all horses on them - no ordinary person would get the chance to buy a foal from any of those stables so does anyone care what they do? (as long as cruelty isn't involved)

At the end of the day most of us don't buy puppies from these people anyway as they trade amongst themselves. It's breeders in general that supply the pet market. that need to clean up their act. Anyway that is how I see it.#

CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED ?

Unfortunately it's Those Cavalier Folk ,the Cavalier Breed Mafia , who are trying to Stop the Advance of the Research for the Cavalier Breed ,this is what is causing the Problem at the Moment,and doing untold Damage to our Cavaliers.

Bet

RodRussell
18th December 2010, 03:58 PM
Hi
Bought the issue of Dogs Today magazine, just to read the article. Must I say I shed a few tears. How can people even think a tiny thought or even say.. "Is It time to give up on the Cavalier" (contents)
This is totally heart-breaking for all of us here, no matter how much discussion and thought, I feel horrible knowing I cannot help - We honestly need a miracle!! :(:(

For those of us without access to the magazine, could you mention the points raised in the article?

Margaret C
18th December 2010, 04:03 PM
Can't they just be ignored and forgotten about? :?

It has already been said they are such a small group of people after all who are specialist breeders for the show ring.
It's like having a go at the top horse racing stables, and blaming all the diseases of all horses on them - no ordinary person would get the chance to buy a foal from any of those stables so does anyone care what they do? (as long as cruelty isn't involved)

At the end of the day most of us don't buy puppies from these people anyway as they trade amongst themselves. It's breeders in general that supply the pet market. that need to clean up their act. Anyway that is how I see it.#

I understand what you are saying, but unfortunately the influence of the small band of top breeders /exhibitors that have no intention of letting the health protocols or health schemes affect their breeding programme is wide spread.
They do not just trade among themselves, the majority of the puppies they breed will be sold to ordinary people, and their stud dog services are routinely used by the "breeders in general" that go on to supply the pet market.

A top winning puppy that, it now appears, has sired NINE litters before he is one year old, has been used by a few owners with no kennel names. They may have well bred bitches but their owners are not one of that specialist group of show breeders you are writing about, and the ordinary pet owner will buy those puppies.

Most of the puppy farm dogs will have well known kennel names at the back of them. Many of the BYBs have Champion dogs in their pedigrees. It is inevitable in the UK where only a very few breeders have spay/neuter contracts.
The reverse does not happen, dogs of unknown non-show lines do not usually get incorporated into top lines. The traffic is one way, and continuous.

Breeding to unscanned dogs does involve cruelty, both to any bitch that has symptomatic SM that is being ignored or discounted, and to the puppies that are being born with an increased chance of inheriting the condition at a young age.
It is cruel to the families that buy a pet that suffers.

These breeders also have influence because the Kennel Club bends over backwards to give it to them, and while the KC is kowtowing to the breed clubs and assuring the world that there is no problem, and no need to tighten up on their registered breeders, there is no chance of tightening the regulations on puppy farmers. Reform has to come from the top.

After all what difference is there between these breeders and puppy farmers when none of them health test their dogs? Their dogs live in sheds. Their dogs are not exercised ( unless they are current show dogs ) Their dogs are bred from as puppies, their bitches mated when only just over one year old & some of them breed their bitches twice in a year.

The only difference is they go to shows.

Margaret C
18th December 2010, 06:03 PM
I would like to say to one of our American members here how disgusted I am at the vulgar & crude language used by a few well known breeders to divert another ongoing discussion on the BVA/KC MRI scheme.

On the forum concerned verbal bullying is a tactic that is often used when there are threads that make uncomfortable reading for these people.

Using rhyming slang does not make the language any less offensive

I know the gentleman targeted is well able to defend himself, but I am ashamed to see that that one of these unpleasant persons is a committee member of the UK Cavalier King Charles Club.

She does the Cavalier Club no credit at all.

RodRussell
18th December 2010, 06:26 PM
I would like to say to one of our American members here how disgusted I am at the vulgar & crude language used by a few well known breeders to divert another ongoing discussion on the BVA/KC MRI scheme.

On the forum concerned verbal bullying is a tactic that is often used when there are threads that make uncomfortable reading for these people.

Using rhyming slang does not make the language any less offensive

I know the gentleman targeted is well able to defend himself, but I am ashamed to see that that one of these unpleasant persons is a committee member of the UK Cavalier King Charles Club.

She does the Cavalier Club no credit at all.

Margaret, when you give certain people enough rope, they will use it to hang themselves. Now perhaps intoxicating beverages were involved here, but potential cavalier puppy buyers, upon reading such posts, should ask themselves:

Should I consider buying a puppy from such a breeder?

Nicki
19th December 2010, 12:38 PM
I have removed a couple of posts from this thread as it was turning into a slanging match - which is not the purpose of this forum.

We prefer that discussions on other forums are left there - this thread was left to run for a bit as some interesting points were being raised, but we will not allow personal comments.

Bet
19th December 2010, 02:28 PM
I have removed a couple of posts from this thread as it was turning into a slanging match - which is not the purpose of this forum.

We prefer that discussions on other forums are left there - this thread was left to run for a bit as some interesting points were being raised, but we will not allow personal comments.

CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

Could I just mention I have Contacted Professor J.Sampson ,Geneticist at the Kennel Club,my Concern about how a Few Influential Cavalier Folk seem to be Trying to Thwart the Progress of the EBV Scheme in our Cavalier Breed.

That it is not just Members of the Cavalier Club who are involved with the Health Problems of our Cavalier Breed ,that there Many ,Many Cavalier Owners who have so much Heart Ache because of seeing our Cavaliers Suffer and Die at Young Ages from the SM and MVD Problems Afflicting our Cherished Cavaliers.

That we other Cavalier Owners who Love Cavaliers are depending on the Research and Information from the EBV Scheme to be a Chance of giving our Cavaliers Healthier ,Longer Lives,why should it be down to just Few Cavalier Folk stopping this.

Bet

Karlin
19th December 2010, 02:45 PM
I know the gentleman targeted is well able to defend himself, but I am ashamed to see that that one of these unpleasant persons is a committee member of the UK Cavalier King Charles Club.

Is this not a violation of the club code of ethics? Most certainly it must be seriously questionable behaviour from a national committee member; and in most clubs of whatever type, it would be a resignable offense for a committee member to attack a club member publically, would it not? :rolleyes:

On the other hand, as I have long said (in line with what Rod says above): the true thoughts and personalities of so many of these people emerge during such public debates -- many present one public face on forums (generally the ones with lots of pet owners/prospective puppy buyers...) but can show a very different side on such forums. A true indication of what they think, most often kept for private communications (occasionally been sent on to me, so I've seen the evidence... and kept it), and for breeder-ony private forums where people also pass along their comments from time to time, and on which some of us are members despite attempts to purge suspects icon_whistling -- so many of us know what they think and say when they think their thoughts are private.

It is nonetheless very helpful for general debate on the effectiveness of breed clubs or breeders to take any responsible decisions on behalf of the breed, to have such true colours displayed. :thmbsup: Very handy for campaigners to send on to MPs, advisory bodies in the UK, etc.

I encourage people to visit other forums and email lists to get a sense of what some of these people say in one location as opposed to another. It may come as a surprise.

At the same time, while I am fine with general points that might be raised elsewhere being discussed and considered here -- in line with what Nicki has posted, I do not want personal differences or arguments with individuals elsewhere, to be carried over here.

Linda en Co
19th December 2010, 02:49 PM
Hello Cavalierfriends,

I'm from Belgium and I've seen that program 'Einde van de rashond' on Nederland2 (dutch television). I knew about the health-problems but hope that something can be done to save my favo Cavalier. There is also a petition > http://www.sophia-vereeniging.nl/l/RAS2010/1/onderteken.htmla now in the Netherlands at Mr Bleker with the question that breeders must be obligated to breed on health of the dog instead of beauty. I also hear or read often that the head of the Cavalier is too small for the brains (syringomyelia) but that the head and also the nose were longer around the years 70 as you can see on > http://dierenrecht.org/fileadmin/documenten/Cavalier_King_Charles_Spaniel-_Inventarisatie_van_de_erfelijke_aandoeningen.pdf so is it maybe possible to mix the Cavalier with another breed so that they look like the Spaniels of King Charles II > http://www.freewebs.com/europeheart/Old%20picture%20of%20Cav.%202.jpg

So I hope you can understand my English because my language is dutch. Greetings from Belgium :-)

Margaret C
19th December 2010, 05:54 PM
Hello Cavalierfriends,

I'm from Belgium and I've seen that program 'Einde van de rashond' on Nederland2 (dutch television). I knew about the health-problems but hope that something can be done to save my favo Cavalier. There is also a petition > http://www.sophia-vereeniging.nl/l/RAS2010/1/onderteken.htmla now in the Netherlands at Mr Bleker with the question that breeders must be obligated to breed on health of the dog instead of beauty. I also hear or read often that the head of the Cavalier is too small for the brains (syringomyelia) but that the head and also the nose were longer around the years 70 as you can see on > http://dierenrecht.org/fileadmin/documenten/Cavalier_King_Charles_Spaniel-_Inventarisatie_van_de_erfelijke_aandoeningen.pdf so is it maybe possible to mix the Cavalier with another breed so that they look like the Spaniels of King Charles II > http://www.freewebs.com/europeheart/Old%20picture%20of%20Cav.%202.jpg

So I hope you can understand my English because my language is dutch. Greetings from Belgium :-)

Your English is really good.

We all love our cavaliers and hope that breeders will work together to make them healthier.

I know that there has been a few wonderful breeders in your Country breeding to the cavalier SM guidelines & improving their results over the years. Perhaps there are just not enough of them?

I had heard about the petition, it is an extreme measure, but perhaps in the end something like that may be needed ? If breeders will not stop breeding from sick dogs by themselves, then perhaps we need laws that can force them to stop.

It has not been proved that it is the change in the head and nose shape that has caused SM in cavaliers. it may not be connected.

It may, I suppose, become necessary to bring in new blood from another breed, if it becomes obvious that there are not enough dogs without SM to breed away from the condition, but we would need expert genetic advice before we try to do that.

For an example of what happens in other breeds I suggest readers here take a look at the poor puppy on................
http://pedigreedogsexposed.blogspot.com/

Karlin
19th December 2010, 06:13 PM
There are some great Dutch cavalier breeders, who have been generous and supportive of research, providing some really critical breeding and MRI information. :D

Outcrossing to another breed may eventually be needed but would need to be part of a careful plan supported by the best genetic advice. There is no evidence that simply crossing cavaliers with other breeds lessens the chance of some of the serious health conditions. :( For example, syringomyelia has shown up in several cavalier crossbreeds (http://www.veterinary-neurologist.co.uk/docs/cm%20and%20%20genome%20research%20update%20into%20 canine_%20chiari%20d.pdf), and any cross can be susceptible to the illnesses that might be genetic traits in the breeds of either parent. So it's really important that people not be taken in by breeders who sell expensive crossbreeds as an answer to health problems.

RodRussell
19th December 2010, 11:32 PM
...Outcrossing to another breed may eventually be needed but would need to be part of a careful plan supported by the best genetic advice. There is no evidence that simply crossing cavaliers with other breeds lessens the chance of some of the serious health conditions. ...

So true. In the AKC right now, the parent club for Dalamatians are being asked to consent to the cross-breeding with a non-AKC bloodline of 99.97% purebred Dals which do not have the mutated gene causing high levels of uric acid, (leading to uric acid sludge and stones in their bladders), which 100% of AKC-registered Dals have. This "low uric acid (LUA)" bloodline was created from one cross-breeding in 1973 of a Dal and a pointer, and the current breedable descendants are the twelfth generation.

I have a hunch that AKC's board will mandate allowing the cross-breeding, even if, next June, the parent club members vote the proposal down. But, there is 37 years of breeding, testing, and genetic research behind this LUA Dalamatian line. In the UK, the Kennel Club already has approved the cross-breeding with this line, I think.

As for the cavalier, we have nothing like the 37 years of vetting that has gone into this Dalmatian line. Any cavalier cross-breeding right now would be a crap shoot. I think the best option is to forget cross breeding and just experiment with crossing other toy breeds, like the Papillon, to re-create "the look" and perhaps the temperament, and leave actual CKCS bloodlines out of the mix for several generations.

Linda en Co
20th December 2010, 06:43 AM
Any cavalier cross-breeding right now would be a crap shoot. I think the best option is to forget cross breeding and just experiment with crossing other toy breeds, like the Papillon, to re-create "the look" and perhaps the temperament, and leave actual CKCS bloodlines out of the mix for several generations.

Yes maybe a good option Rodrussel.

Bet
20th December 2010, 11:38 AM
Yes maybe a good option Rodrussel.

CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED ?

In case any of you Missed my Post about the Lady who is a Dedicated Cavalier Owner ,has a Cavalier who has had Health Tests ,but still Developed Problems ,and because of the Heath Problems Afflicting our Cavaliers ,wondered if the Things she, and most Cavalier Lovers love about the Breed could be Retained about the Breed without the Heath Issues.

She has Consulted Cavalier Breeders ,Genetic Experts and Vets and has found out that this could be done.

She is now going ahead with this Long Term Project of Out -Crossing .

She knows that there is the Possibility of Throwing up Hidden or Unknown Health problems with Out Crossing ,but she is going to be Meticulous in Keeping Health Records .

What other way can the Cavaliers go now, they have Reached the End of the Road because of their Health Problems, their MVD Problem can't be Solved because there are now so many Cavalier Carriers around with MVD Genes ,their SM Problem is heading in the same Direction, OK, we who Really Love Cavaliers ,might not in the Future have a 4Legged Friend who looks like a Cavalier ,maube more like the Original Toy Spaniel , but for sure they probably will have a better Chance of Healthier ,Longer Lives than what the Cavaliers of To-Day have.

THis must be what we All Want.

Bet

Kate H
20th December 2010, 11:55 AM
their MVD Problem can't be Solved because there are now so many Cavalier Carriers around with MVD Genes ,their SM Problem is heading in the same Direction,

But the experts such as Simon Swift and Clare Rusbridge are still saying that MVD could be bred out and SM brought under control within 3 or 4 generations if breeders would keep the breeding protocols. And some responsible breeders are showing that it can be done. The problem isn't with the Cavaliers but with the humans who breed them. An outcross may (or may not) make things better for the dogs, but will it change human nature?

Kate, Oliver and Aled

Bet
20th December 2010, 12:01 PM
But the experts such as Simon Swift and Clare Rusbridge are still saying that MVD could be bred out and SM brought under control within 3 or 4 generations if breeders would keep the breeding protocols. And some responsible breeders are showing that it can be done. The problem isn't with the Cavaliers but with the humans who breed them. An outcross may make things better for the dogs, but will it change human nature?

Kate, Oliver and Aled

CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?


Is Not the Priority to lessen the Suffering of our Cherished Cavaliers, if Out -Crossing will do this ,then I am sure there will be many Heart -Broken Cavalier Owners who will want this .

Bet

Davecav
20th December 2010, 12:05 PM
By outcrossing do you mean mating to another breed? or trying to use unrelated dogs?

Bet
20th December 2010, 12:30 PM
By outcrossing do you mean mating to another breed? or trying to use unrelated dogs?

CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

Mating to another Suitable Breed, this is what this Lady is doing.

Bet

Davecav
20th December 2010, 12:59 PM
Which breed is she going to use, and has she got prior experience of breeding? Also from other posts on this thread, if this is done - it should be done with genetic advice. Is she getting it, and from who. How is this project going to be funderd?
Does she own health tested cavaliers of appropriate age; as this isn't clear from your other posts about her.
And is she going to keep all the puppies so they can be monitored for health problems through their lives, or has she got people lined up who are willing to give homes to the puppies produced to help monitor this experiment. (This will be costly)
Or is she just going to sell the pups? in which case, !!!!

To my mind bringing in another breed will bring in thier health problems too. If this person has no experience of breeding, she sounds like a do-gooder who might soon find herself out of her depth.

Karlin
20th December 2010, 02:38 PM
Mating to another Suitable Breed, this is what this Lady is doing.


I totally do NOT support this. I have yet to come across anybody I think has the capability and expertise to do this. The person who I believe is attempting this that you refer to, has nothing of the sort on any evidence I have seen, in the time she has considered doing this. To me it looks like haphazard crossbreeding with little real understanding of what she is doing. Just crossing cavaliers and papillons or cockers is NOT the solution. What about the health issues in cockers and papillons? As Clare Rusbridge makes clear: crosses have every chance of acquiring the genes for SM. It makes more sense to wait for the finish of the genome work to see what, genetically, breeders are dealing with.

IF breeders used the protocols and IF they bred to a wider gene pool researchers as well as geneticists do think the breed has a chance. the problem is -- as Margaret notes -- that almost nobody does this. The same small pool of sires is used, and many of the breeders who claim to follow protocol simply do not. Anyone can go lookup the past year's breed registrations as well as pedigrees online. There is quite a roster of well known breeders, some of them involved with national and regional club committees, who routinely breed underage dogs, use underage sires, and/or still do not use cardiologists for heart testing or MRI or use this info for better breeding. Many of these badmouth every proposed health programme. Some of them privately encourage puppy buyers to not worry about finding health tested parents (for hearts much less MRIs -- I have seen the correspondence from a puppy buyer with the former health rep of a major club pushing the buyer to do exactly this). The breeders say people outside their circle (like me!) make this up or it is only a few renegade breeders (yeah, right...) but the evidence is right there in the pedigrees and puppy registrations, year after year, that this is a widespread problem! Many decent breeders are also alarmed at the number of affected dogs sold on quietly to markets far enough away (eg US/Canada/Australia) that the word never reaches the new breeder/owners that the dog has SM or every sign of it, and as MRIs are costly, the dog will likely never be formally diagnosed but will be bred and bred. There are some truly craven people out there and they know who they are. :x

Outcrossing -- far more laborious and time consuming than health-focused breeding within existing lines -- simply is not going to happen when so few breeders will even properly health test and follow breeding protocols. The CKCSC in the US just voted to downgrade the stringency of one protocol. The UK national committee rejected a motion to have its own members -- at least, to set some sort of national example!! -- adhere to breeding health protocols. Those are the reasons I think the breed is under severe pressure for survival from many directions. And sadly, as long as pet buyers go buy puppies from people who cannot produce cardiologist (not vet!) heart certs, MRI scans, and learn enough to understand their significance, the breed will continue to decline. Breeders cannot afford to breed if puppy buyers do not buy their puppies. Pet people: please do not abandon this breed for your own short term benefit of acquiring an untested, cheaper puppy from a breeder who doesn't care. You, the puppy buyer, are directly involved in making a difference too -- or leaving the breed to sink.

Margaret C
20th December 2010, 02:43 PM
Perhaps the answer to the title question is.............

It probably could be, but it probably won't be.

Bet
20th December 2010, 04:22 PM
Perhaps the answer to the title question is.............

It probably could be, but it probably won't be.


CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

That is the $64,000 Question now facing the Cavalier Breed.

Many Cavalier Breeders have Blown their Chance of Trying to save the Cavalier Breed,the Lack of Data is Delaying the production of the Values for SM in Cavaliers ,not my Words but the Remarks of the Researchers,and has also now been Shown by the Reluctance of some Cavalier Breeders trying to put Hurdles in the way of the EBV Scheme.

For over 20 years the CKCS CLUBS' Breeding Guideline Recommendations have been Totally Ignored by many Cavalier Breeders for MVD ,now it is said that the MVD Problem is No Better than it was 18 years ago.

I don't know what this Lady's Breeding Program is, but the way the Cavalier Breed has Deteriorated with their Health Problems in the Past few years, is the Cavalier now just about an Endendered Species of Dog.

Bet

Pat
21st December 2010, 12:00 AM
We've discussed the "Cavalier Recreation Project" in threads here in the past. I'd pull them to the top but I never have luck with the search function here - I obviously do something wrong when I search here. Remember, I made the joke about the person needs to learn the difference between "re-creation" and "recreation" - I thought maybe I could book a cruise for my Cavaliers when I first saw the site......

This person is crossing cocker spaniels and papillons in order to "re-create" the Cavalier breed. Forgive me for being blunt, but this idea to me is a cross between idiocy and insanity. The result will be just another designer cross-breed, it certainly will not be a Cavalier.

What was even more disturbing to me is the recent reference on what I thought was a legitimate Cavalier site with the comment that the site owner "wishes ________ the very best of luck with this project." Huh???? I would really encourage that site owner to remove any reference to this project on her site as it really devalues her site.

Pat

P.S. I suspect that Margaret's most recent answer is pretty darn accurate. Makes me glad that I'm an old lady and won't be owning dogs much past the lifespan of my current Cavaliers.

P.P.S. Totally agree with Karlin above!

Karen and Ruby
21st December 2010, 01:03 AM
It makes me truely so very sad to read the above....

Margaret said it right, "It probably could be..... but probably won't"


I sometimes have a read through the other Cavalier forum and I wonder why some breeders/comittee members have such problem with admitting the problems that the Cavalier world is faced with.

It makes me sick that everyone who can aren't desperatly following whatever protocol is put in front of them with the thought that it has to be worth trying because there ISN'T ANYTHING ELSE!!! Well nothing else but ignorance anyway.

It makes me understand these student riots in a way, it gets to the point where polite letters and conversations just dont cut the mustard any more.
I'd like to storm up to the UK KC headquarters now and give them a peice of my mind before I end up giving a peice of my precious Ruby's mind to research...... Research that is so important people are donating their loved ones to help, just for some breeders to turn their back and stick their fingers up :bang:

anniemac
21st December 2010, 03:30 AM
Anyone not testing, following protocols, etc. Should drive a car that has had the same standards.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

anniemac
21st December 2010, 03:38 AM
Let me rephrase ... they should ask themselves if they would drive a car without any safety tests? Breeder, buyer etc. Doesn't matter, it is a dogs life, health that is the result

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

anniemac
21st December 2010, 04:13 AM
I am not smart, but I do care about cavaliers and want to do the right thing. I know breeders are only 50% of the problem, but it should not be so hard for people. Margaret has said breeders not health testing are no different than byb. Then I read some poor person who bought a cavalier who finds out their cavalier has sm. Comments that they must have got the dog from a puppy mill or byb, etc. And its their fault.

I'm sorry, but I put trust in clubs. If they tell me things to ask or not have people follow recommendations then yes they are no different. Rod's website is helpful, so is this, but people (if they even go to research) need some consistancy. Many people will not go to that much research when finding a puppy.

So if people do not want people to buy from byb, PLEASE help us.

I know most people here are in the UK, but someone please tell me what the US is doing.

I see there is a health registry on ckcsc usa with 5+ clear hearts. You can pull up the form which if they all could do this, include MRI results, it would be great. (I also noticed most of the ones on the registry are from a couple people)

If this is not the forum, fine. I just get real sad when I see someone blame an owner when things are not very clear. It seems like an excuse. I don't think I'm a bad owner, did anything wrong, should be blamed, not be able to say what I feel because I am not a member of a club, don't understand the KC committees and voting, don't understand the difference and politics of the breed clubs in the US, still don't see the change on the ckcsc usa mvd protocol, but I need guidence and I hope others do too.

Correct me. Mvd protocol is you can breed a 2.5 year old if both parents were clear at 5? If not, then they should wait until they are 5? That's what I thought I read on the club website.

In order for everyone to work together, please help each other out. I don't think I should not have ella because I don't understand these things. I just wish if there are people that have been around cavaliers for several years, then help the future generations of not only cavaliers but people who are new and want to learn how to help.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Bet
21st December 2010, 11:24 AM
We've discussed the "Cavalier Recreation Project" in threads here in the past. I'd pull them to the top but I never have luck with the search function here - I obviously do something wrong when I search here. Remember, I made the joke about the person needs to learn the difference between "re-creation" and "recreation" - I thought maybe I could book a cruise for my Cavaliers when I first saw the site......

This person is crossing cocker spaniels and papillons in order to "re-create" the Cavalier breed. Forgive me for being blunt, but this idea to me is a cross between idiocy and insanity. The result will be just another designer cross-breed, it certainly will not be a Cavalier.

What was even more disturbing to me is the recent reference on what I thought was a legitimate Cavalier site with the comment that the site owner "wishes ________ the very best of luck with this project." Huh???? I would really encourage that site owner to remove any reference to this project on her site as it really devalues her site.

Pat

P.S. I suspect that Margaret's most recent answer is pretty darn accurate. Makes me glad that I'm an old lady and won't be owning dogs much past the lifespan of my current Cavaliers.

P.P.S. Totally agree with Karlin above!

CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

I only know that the Cavalier Breed might not Survive much Longer because of the Health Problems Afflicting it.

We now hear of I think is a Court Case in Holland for the Breeding of Cavaliers to be being banned.

All I know is that about a year ago there was a Cavalier MRI Scanned , had No CM or SM, I was able to trace this Cavalier's Pedigree back, and it went to the Cocker Spaniel Mating with the Cavalier in the early 1950's.

SUNTOP JOYFUL Cocker Spaniel

CREST BY CANDLELIGHT B/T Cavalier

I thought yesterday I would contact a Geneticist about the Out-Crossing a Cavalier with another Breed , I am just quoting his Reply to me.

He started off by saying it was an interesting Proposition ,I had mentiond the Lady in the Magazine about her idea of Out-Crossing a Cavalier with another Breed because of the Serious Health Problems the Cavaliers are Suffering from.

He said that ,certainly from a Purely Technical Animal Breeding Point of View ,there is nothing stopping the Creation of a New Breed from Several Established Breeds ,nor of One which is Predominantly from a Single Established Breed.

However ,he went onto say, that there are certain Issues that need to be made Aware of,since usually will be a Small Number who tend to be used to as as Founder Animals,( my words , like the Cavalier Breed when only 6 were used in the 1920's-30's ,and is this why there is so much Evidence of the Cavaliers having Heart Trouble in the 1940'and particularly in the 1950's ),what is Critical is the Rate of Inbreeding that tends to Accompany the Developement of a New Breed

He also said that Subsequent Selection for Temprement, Health or Appearance would need to be Involved,also the the Impact of a Novel Genetic Disease .

Here are my Thoughts again .

I have Posted about wondering whether Cavalier King Charles Spaniels have been recently Mated with King Charles Spaniels, the First Time SM had been Noted was in the 1980's, no-body had ever heard of this Horrible Disease before, could this have been the Impact of a Novel Genetic Disease.

Back to the Geneticist , he went onto say ,that when Creating a New Breed ,one way would be to use a Larger Founder Population.

That Presumably the Aim would be to Create a Breed as Close to the Cavalier as Possible ,but with-out their Current Health Problems

I am only the Messenger passing on this Information, but I think that so many of us Heart-Broken Cavalier Owners who have had so many Tears because our Cavaliers dying so Young because of SM and MVD , now realize that there a Good Number of Cavalier Breeders , and No they are not all Puppy Farmers or BYB's of Cavaliers, just Don't Give Two Hoots about the Health Troubles in our Cherished Cavaliers.

What has to be Done , I just don't have a Clue, The Researchers are trying their Best, but unfortunately some Prominant Cavalier Breeders are doing all they can to Hinder the Research.

Bet

sins
21st December 2010, 12:04 PM
Unfortunately when it comes to "saving" the cavalier,there are no soft options.
Those who try, and who will keep trying, must feel like they're shovelling snow in a blizzard.
Sins

sins
21st December 2010, 12:27 PM
I have Posted about wondering whether Cavalier King Charles Spaniels have been recently Mated with King Charles Spaniels, the First Time SM had been Noted was in the 1980's, no-body had ever heard of this Horrible Disease before, could this have been the Impact of a Novel Genetic Disease.



I wouldn't think so Bet.
I'm not sure if you've read Tina and Dennis Homes book.
I was drawn to a paragraph where Amice Pitt was writing in 1971.
Forgive me for paraphrasing here as I'm at work and don't have the book.
But what she said basically was that there was a divergence within the breed when it came to heads,one type with the long muzzle and little cushioning under the eyes and the other which threw back to the domed head and short face.
I'll find the exact quote in the afternoon,but seeing as this was from 1971,it would not support the theory that you've just proposed.
Sins

sins
21st December 2010, 12:55 PM
Apologies for hogging the thread...
If I leave it any longer between posts I'll lose my train of thought.I often spend days thinking of what I want to say and then forget;)..so when I'm on a roll.....
I don't want to leave anyone with the idea that the cavalier world is solely populated with heartless uncaring breeders...
As you know I spent a lot of time sourcing a puppy in the UK last year and am closing in again on what I want for next year. I have had the chance to speak to a fair few breeders and I have to say noone who I spoke to was either denying or covering up any of the difficulties in the breed.
Some are taking the problem of Cavalier health very seriously. Some are committee members, be it at regional clubs or otherwise, others just regular breeders and exhibitors - they are constantly searching the UK for useful stud dogs, making long term plans for screening of litters and having everything they own scanned and rescanned....submitting all info for EBVs...and trying to find the best homes for pups with owners who understand what they're trying to achieve.
I know of some who are cooperating with overseas breeders and indeed, pet passporting bitches in readiness for travel to the healthiest dogs.
These are the people who have not chosen the soft option but who are determined to do right by the breed...and it would be terribly remiss of us not to give them the support and encouragement that they so rightly deserve.
Sins

Margaret C
21st December 2010, 02:00 PM
I don't want to leave anyone with the idea that the cavalier world is solely populated with heartless uncaring breeders...
As you know I spent a lot of time sourcing a puppy in the UK last year and am closing in again on what I want for next year. I have had the chance to speak to a fair few breeders and I have to say noone who I spoke to was either denying or covering up any of the difficulties in the breed.
Some are taking the problem of Cavalier health very seriously. Some are committee members, be it at regional clubs or otherwise, others just regular breeders and exhibitors - they are constantly searching the UK for useful stud dogs, making long term plans for screening of litters and having everything they own scanned and rescanned....submitting all info for EBVs...and trying to find the best homes for pups with owners who understand what they're trying to achieve.
I know of some who are cooperating with overseas breeders and indeed, pet passporting bitches in readiness for travel to the healthiest dogs.
These are the people who have not chosen the soft option but who are determined to do right by the breed...and it would be terribly remiss of us not to give them the support and encouragement that they so rightly deserve.
Sins

You are right, there are breeders that have not chosen the soft option and they are truly to be congratulated, but except for a very few brave individuals they have not stood up to be counted.

When responsible breeders let the people who lie when they say they are breeding to health protocols act as their mouthpiece, then they should not be surprised if they are judged to be the same.

How can we support & encourage breeders that do not speak up and identify themselves?

*Pauline*
21st December 2010, 02:03 PM
Well said Sinead. There certainly are breeders out there who are addressing the issues and cutting no corners on health issues. I take my hat off to them.

anniemac
21st December 2010, 02:26 PM
I know there are breeders doing what they can doing everything possible and I have never wanted them to be put in the same category but saying there are is not enough.

If we need people to support these and not get puppies from others, it is making it difficult. I know they are there but help the people find them. It should be something to be proud of, not ashamed.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

sins
21st December 2010, 08:01 PM
Bet,
The quote from Amice Pitt in 1971 that I was looking for is this:
"There seems to be a sharp division in the modern Cavalier's head.Some have over long muzzles with no cushioning below the eyes and a tendency to small eyes.Others show an inclination to return to the round head and shorter blunt faces".

Sins

Bet
22nd December 2010, 10:47 AM
Bet,
The quote from Amice Pitt in 1971 that I was looking for is this:
"There seems to be a sharp division in the modern Cavalier's head.Some have over long muzzles with no cushioning below the eyes and a tendency to small eyes.Others show an inclination to return to the round head and shorter blunt faces".

Sins

CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

The Cavalier Breed is in such a mess now with SM and MVD ,even although some Cavalier Breeders seem intent on Denying this Fact, that whether Cavaliers have been Out-Crossed to King Charles Spaniels to give them them the Smaller Head required for To-Days Cavaliers won't make any Difference.

There are 50% of Cavaliers 5-6 years of Age with a Heart Murmur, I don't think there is any other Breed with such a Figure as this.

Because of this Figure the Problem for our Cavaliers is that there are now so Many Cavaliers around who are Carriers of the MVD Gene/Genes,that probably will be why the MVD Problem is not getting any better in our Cavalier Breed.

I don't know how many Carriers of SM there will be in the Breed ,but when 85 Whelps were recently Researched and all had CM, that is Dreadful Information for our Cavaliers.

Yet there are still Some Cavalier Breeders insisting that our Cavaliers have No More Problems than any other Breed.

Do those Breeders not realize that the Cavaliers are just about to become Extinct?

The Cavalier Breed is in Serious Trouble, the Sooner this is Realized ,then the Cavalier Researchers might get all the Help they are needing for their Research into MVD and SM ,and the Continual Spin being Put out by some Cavalier Breeders that The Cavaliers are Fine is Stopped , the Better it will be for the Survival of the Cavalier Breed.

Bet

Bet
22nd December 2010, 06:44 PM
CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

The Cavalier Breed is in such a mess now with SM and MVD ,even although some Cavalier Breeders seem intent on Denying this Fact, that whether Cavaliers have been Out-Crossed to King Charles Spaniels to give them them the Smaller Head required for To-Days Cavaliers won't make any Difference.

There are 50% of Cavaliers 5-6 years of Age with a Heart Murmur, I don't think there is any other Breed with such a Figure as this.

Because of this Figure the Problem for our Cavaliers is that there are now so Many Cavaliers around who are Carriers of the MVD Gene/Genes,that probably will be why the MVD Problem is not getting any better in our Cavalier Breed.

I don't know how many Carriers of SM there will be in the Breed ,but when 85 Whelps were recently Researched and all had CM, that is Dreadful Information for our Cavaliers.

Yet there are still Some Cavalier Breeders insisting that our Cavaliers have No More Problems than any other Breed.

Do those Breeders not realize that the Cavaliers are just about to become Extinct?

The Cavalier Breed is in Serious Trouble, the Sooner this is Realized ,then the Cavalier Researchers might get all the Help they are needing for their Research into MVD and SM ,and the Continual Spin being Put out by some Cavalier Breeders that The Cavaliers are Fine is Stopped , the Better it will be for the Survival of the Cavalier Breed.

Bet

CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

I believe that there have been 10 New Cavalier Champions this Year , I wonder if all have been Health Tested,and have been Bred following the Breeding Line Recommendations, if they have that could be such a Good Way of Trying to
Give Cavaliers the Chance of Healthier ,Longer Lives.

Bet

Bet
23rd December 2010, 11:20 AM
CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

I believe that there have been 10 New Cavalier Champions this Year , I wonder if all have been Health Tested,and have been Bred following the Breeding Line Recommendations, if they have that could be such a Good Way of Trying to
Give Cavaliers the Chance of Healthier ,Longer Lives.

Bet

CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

I sure have had my Eyes Opened this Morning Reading , if I am allowed to mention the Chatterbox , what a Vitriolic Attack was made against we Lovers of Cavaliers in her Health Section.

All I can say to the Question

CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED.?

After this Attack ,

NO CHANCE!!!!!

Bet

sins
23rd December 2010, 11:29 AM
Hi Bet,
I've had a really good look again through Chatterbox and can't seem to find anything like what you describe?
Sins

Davecav
23rd December 2010, 01:10 PM
Hi Bet,
I've had a really good look again through Chatterbox and can't seem to find anything like what you describe?
Sins

No me neither :confused: There's nothing there.

Bet
23rd December 2010, 02:00 PM
No me neither :confused: There's nothing there.

CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

Look under her Chatterbox Categories ,under Health,

Bet.

sunshinekisses
23rd December 2010, 04:58 PM
I think Karlin's post #63 said it best and I totally agree.

anniemac
23rd December 2010, 05:36 PM
towels
Although I think this forum is absolutely wonderful, the vast majority of people looking for a new dog or puppy are not going to visit it. However, I do think Facebook has the power to reach far more people. I noticed that "someone" started a Facebook group called "Save the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel". Maybe if we can post facts and links to articles and basically just spread awareness to the public, we can get the word out.

This will probably scare some people away from getting a Cavalier, but that's not actually a bad thing... if the demand goes down, then maybe PMs & BYBs will slow or halt their operations or switch to another breed (sorry, I hate to think of that alternative, too). But the idea would be to reach people who are going to get one anyway, or know someone who is, and make sure they know what they are getting themselves into and what steps can be taken to improve the odds of less heartbreak down the road.

It's so important that the information be accurate, though, so if anyone posts something we should be sure that it is correct and can be backed up by research, evidence, or at least written by someone proven to be a trusted authority on the subject.

I hear you and will send PM. I obviously don't know the accurate information but I have found it really sad and hard to get anywhere or have guidence. Its one thing to say things but we need direction or at least I do.

Tania did a wonderful job with cavaliermatters.org but it also has a lot of UK information. This thread and forum is great but the majority of pet owners will not care about cross breeding, however I know its interesting to talk about.

Facebook reaches a lot of people but I have gotten sucked into believing something I read to not be true. Most people are not going to read published papers etc. Yet we need you all but also to lend us a hand who are not as familiar.





Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Bet
23rd December 2010, 07:28 PM
CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

Look under her Chatterbox Categories ,under Health,

Bet.

CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

Seems as if the Health Section has now been removed from the Categories on Chatterbox.

Bet

RodRussell
23rd December 2010, 09:36 PM
CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

Seems as if the Health Section has now been removed from the Categories on Chatterbox.

Bet

Bet, what was the gist (I hope that word does not have a different meaning in the UK) of what you read about health on Chatterbox today?

Bet
24th December 2010, 11:27 AM
Bet, what was the gist (I hope that word does not have a different meaning in the UK) of what you read about health on Chatterbox today?

CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

Rod,

Yes, you have got the Right Word, can I say though how Shocked and Scunnered ,( Scots Word for Disgusted ),at what you had to Take.

I had Printed off from the Health Section on the Categories in Chatterbox before it wes Hastily Whipped Off yesterday

Why it was ever being used again ,I just can't understand .

The Article had appeared in OUR DOGS about maybe Two years ago, why it was being Rehashed in the latest Edition of Chatterbox , only the Editor will know.

It was mainly an Attack against Jemima Harrison who had produced the TV Program Pedigree Dogs Exposed,mentioning that it was a Grossly Biased of Gutter TV.

I will not Mention any of the Personal Comments against Jemima Harrison.

I will Mention what was said about our Cavalier Breed and Reproduced in Chatterbox ,17-12- 2010 from this Article,that the Neurologists had No Idea about SM Figures in Clinically Affected Cavaliers,that the Lack of Facts and Figures allied to the Fact that Involvement of any Genetic Mechanism .

There were more Personal attacks made in the Article against those who are trying to give the Cavaliers a Future , but I won't give those Details.

I have Absolutely NO PROOF ABOUT THIS, but has this Article been brought to the Fore again , because we have now Learned that there are some Cavalier Breeders who are trying to Hinder the MRI Scheme being used by the Researchers.

If it is ,what a Way for 2010 to have Ended for our Beloved Cavaliers.

Bet

Karlin
24th December 2010, 12:40 PM
Bet, will you email or mail a copy over to me? :)

Bet
24th December 2010, 01:51 PM
Bet, will you email or mail a copy over to me? :)

CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

Karlin ,
It's on it's way.

Bet

Oreo
24th December 2010, 10:28 PM
There is still a cache of the chatterbox health section on google. It is here and at the bottom is an article, "Spotted At Ringside", that includes remarks about Jemima Harrison and "one or two other fellow attention seekers' and egomaniacs".

I don't know if this is the one you were posting about Bet?

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:iwogFMc1pIgJ:honeybet.typepad.com/breed_notes/health/+cavalier+chatterbox+health+jemima+harrison&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

Oreo

RodRussell
25th December 2010, 12:05 AM
There is still a cache of the chatterbox health section on google. It is here and at the bottom is an article, "Spotted At Ringside", that includes remarks about Jemima Harrison and "one or two other fellow attention seekers' and egomaniacs".

I don't know if this is the one you were posting about Bet?

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:iwogFMc1pIgJ:honeybet.typepad.com/breed_notes/health/+cavalier+chatterbox+health+jemima+harrison&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

Oreo

I read from the 29 March 2010 issue of Chatterbox a cut-&-paste of an "Our Dogs" article titled: "Spotted at the ringside by an OUR D0GS reporter". Whoever he is, he is pretty clueless about what researchers have and have not yet found out about Chiari-like malformation and syringomyelia in the breed. But, I am sure from the way he (she?) wrote his piece that he enjoyed doing it.

Bet
25th December 2010, 11:26 AM
There is still a cache of the chatterbox health section on google. It is here and at the bottom is an article, "Spotted At Ringside", that includes remarks about Jemima Harrison and "one or two other fellow attention seekers' and egomaniacs".

I don't know if this is the one you were posting about Bet?

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:iwogFMc1pIgJ:honeybet.typepad.com/breed_notes/health/+cavalier+chatterbox+health+jemima+harrison&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

Oreo

CAN THE CAVALIER BE SAVED?

Yes Oreo, that's the one,why the Editor of Chatterbox had to put this under the Categories on Health , on the 17-12-10 as it was an Article about 2 years old ,published by Our Dogs , I just don't have a Clue,only she will know.

I know there are Feelings at the Moment about the MRI Scheme and some Cavalier Breeders trying to delay it, whether this why this Article has been Raised again I would'nt know, but it's so Sad that the Editor must Condone it, to have had it Reprinted once more in her Chatterbox.

Bet

Bet
26th December 2010, 12:57 PM
CAN THE CAVALIER BE SAVED?

Yes Oreo, that's the one,why the Editor of Chatterbox had to put this under the Categories on Health , on the 17-12-10 as it was an Article about 2 years old ,published by Our Dogs , I just don't have a Clue,only she will know.

I know there are Feelings at the Moment about the MRI Scheme and some Cavalier Breeders trying to delay it, whether this why this Article has been Raised again I would'nt know, but it's so Sad that the Editor must Condone it, to have had it Reprinted once more in her Chatterbox.

Bet

CAN THE CAVALIER BE SAVED ?

Can I clear this matter up once and for all.

Tha Article I mentioned in my Post about what was Printed in Chatterbox, 17-12-2010,was in the Editor's Categories Column ,under Health ,I printed it off.

Looked again about a Couple of Hours later , the Health Category part had been removed , whether that had been done by the Web Master, I will never know.

Bet

Margaret C
26th December 2010, 01:34 PM
I read from the 29 March 2010 issue of Chatterbox a cut-&-paste of an "Our Dogs" article titled: "Spotted at the ringside by an OUR D0GS reporter". Whoever he is, he is pretty clueless about what researchers have and have not yet found out about Chiari-like malformation and syringomyelia in the breed. But, I am sure from the way he (she?) wrote his piece that he enjoyed doing it.

Yes the reporter had no idea at all what they were talking about.

This is an article where 'Our Dogs' were forced to publish an apology in the following edition.

Gutter press reporting

Karlin
26th December 2010, 01:44 PM
I would think someone wisely reflected on one or several of these concerns:


reprinting an article without express permission from the publication is a copyright violation
reprinting an article that Dog World had to issue an apology for after numerous complaints pointing out the many incorrect statements within, and which was investigated by the press complaints body in the UK, would probably not be in the best legal interests of the columnist, website nor the original publication
setting up a 'health' section in which the first and only item was this article, at a time when the club and well known breeders are trying to present themselves as having at least some minimal concern about the serious heath problems in the breed, surely would have made such claims seem asinine and this would also have been a deep embarrassment to the club


But again: it is quite useful to be able to cite this as an example of how certain breeders see the world.

RodRussell
26th December 2010, 06:09 PM
Yes the reporter had no idea at all what they were talking about.

This is an article where 'Our Dogs' were forced to publish an apology in the following edition.

Gutter press reporting

That story-about-the-story is very interesting. Of course, in the USA, no one could have forced the magazine to issue an apology for such an article. And so it would remain out there to influence public opinion. But even more interesting is the fact that the author actually did engage in the very practice which he accused the producer of PDE of doing. Here is an excerpt:

"In a recent piece in the Daily Mail on the Beckhams' Bulldog, she is grandly described as a 'broadcaster and campaigner', but what are her credentials for such a title? In another publication, we are informed she has a couple of Flat Coated Retrievers and had done some rescue with that breed. Hardly sufficient for her to set herself up as an arbiter of what is right or wrong with pedigree dogs, is it? Clearly, she believes it is! And it is all good for the bank balance!"

Some of us in the USA have a phrase for this kind of writing: "Drive-By Media". It means that the "journalist" will make veiled accusations to suggest evil-minded motivations on the part of his subject (his target?), despite the lack of any factual basis, and then "drive on by" without consequences to the writer, to attack someone else in the same feckless manner at the next stop. I think it is a way for these "journalists" to atone for their own sins. They don't repent, of course, but they single out other people and accuse them of commiting those same sins, thereby deluding themselves into thinking they have performed a public good deed. Hypocrisy is their best friend; it gives them ideas about what -- and whom -- to write about.

As he wrote: "Of course being fair to such breeders is contrary to cheap sensationalist TV." Thus, hypocrisy thrives amongst the drive-by media.

(I need to add, however, that hypocrisy is a sin which everyone has committed, at one time or another. Whoever claims otherwise is a hypocrite! But to fail to recognize it as a sin is a path to hell, and to elevate it to an art form is the path to modern-day pseudo-journalism.)

Bet
26th December 2010, 07:36 PM
I would think someone wisely reflected on one or several of these concerns:


reprinting an article without express permission from the publication is a copyright violation
reprinting an article that Dog World had to issue an apology for after numerous complaints pointing out the many incorrect statements within, and which was investigated by the press complaints body in the UK, would probably not be in the best legal interests of the columnist, website nor the original publication
setting up a 'health' section in which the first and only item was this article, at a time when the club and well known breeders are trying to present themselves as having at least some minimal concern about the serious heath problems in the breed, surely would have made such claims seem asinine and this would also have been a deep embarrassment to the club


But again: it is quite useful to be able to cite this as an example of how certain breeders see the world.

CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

I am so Pleased to Note that there have been around 3, 800 Views to this Thread,at least Many Cavalier Owners who Truly Love the Cavalier Breed, will Understand what is happening here in Britain to-day, how some Cavalier Breeders are Determined to do everything in their Power to Hinder the Research for SM and MVD Progressing.

At least the Web Master seems it was Good Policy to Remove the Health Section which contained the Venemous , Vindictive Article from the Categories in Chatterbox,

Why it was ever included as Recently as 17 -12- 2010 in Chatterbox for all the Denials that are being given,there was no Reason for it to being there,could it possibly be ,that there is a Hidden Agenda being Involved ,we will never know.

All that we Lovers of our Beloved Cavalier Breed know is that there seems to be some Cavalier Breeders Intent on Scuppering the MRI Scheme from going Ahead.

At least Many Cavalier Owners will know what is going on.

Bet

sins
26th December 2010, 08:47 PM
Bet,
The article was indeed written around the time of Crufts this year and still remains on Chatterbox as an archived article.
It was not included in the Festive Chatterbox column of 17 th December.
When you said it was there,I went to view the blog and could find no reference to it whatsoever.At the time, the search facility under the various categories was still enabled,and when I searched under "health" I was taken to a report on the Blenheim show.
Evidently,the links on the right hand side of the page had never been enabled. So when we clicked on them,we were taken to a random part of a page from an archived edition of Chatterbox...I ended up in Blenheim...you at Crufts:-D.
There's no conspiracy theory,just a misunderstanding as to how such an out of context article could appear to have been resurrected.
Sins

anniemac
26th December 2010, 09:46 PM
I don't know who the reporter was, the magazine it was in or what chatterbox is, but I have to say the reporter may be right about one thing. Dont underestimate the pet owning public. Now we live in an age where we have things like MRIs, advances in medicine to identify what exactly is an issue, and how great it would be to have a database to track these things for progress. Say maybe a health registry? So to say if SM was common, it would have been known by now is "rubbish". That's why the internet and other things are bringing advancement in all areas. We do not live in the time where things are among clubs, shows, crufts, etc. are the only way cavalier lovers can meet and talk about things.

Don't underestimate facebook and other methods people (pet owners) have to talk about things to notice there is a problem or to say something is wrong with my dog. We now have a support that was not there before. If there has always been a problem covered up or not is no longer an issue. PDE brought to light several things but I feel that eventually it would have been brought to light anyway. Better before than later.



Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Bet
27th December 2010, 11:51 AM
I don't know who the reporter was, the magazine it was in or what chatterbox is, but I have to say the reporter may be right about one thing. Dont underestimate the pet owning public. Now we live in an age where we have things like MRIs, advances in medicine to identify what exactly is an issue, and how great it would be to have a database to track these things for progress. Say maybe a health registry? So to say if SM was common, it would have been known by now is "rubbish". That's why the internet and other things are bringing advancement in all areas. We do not live in the time where things are among clubs, shows, crufts, etc. are the only way cavalier lovers can meet and talk about things.

Don't underestimate facebook and other methods people (pet owners) have to talk about things to notice there is a problem or to say something is wrong with my dog. We now have a support that was not there before. If there has always been a problem covered up or not is no longer an issue. PDE brought to light several things but I feel that eventually it would have been brought to light anyway. Better before than later.



Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

Our New Year's Resolution 2011 should be for the Saving of Our Cavalier Breed as anniemac's Post has said, it is going to be the Cavalier Pet Owning who are going to be Mainly Responsible for succeeding in this Happening.

I know that there are some Cavalier Breeders who are trying their Best to Achieve this Goal, but unfortunately they are being Hindered by a Few Vociferous Cavalier Breeders who are trying by what -ever means they can in Thwarting and Delaying the Advance of the Information needed by the Researchers.

For Example the Delaying Tactics for the MRI Scheme ,also how a UK CKCS CLUB COMMITTEE MEMBER has used an Under-Aged Cavalier for Breeding ,and by doing this is not following the Breeding Guideline Recommendations given by the CKCS CLUB and the Researchers into the Most Serious Problems Afllicting our Cherished Cavaliers, SM and MVD,why has this Committee Member still been allowed to be a Member of the CKCS CLUB COMMITTEE.

Why the Article from OUR DOGS was ever used as an Issue for Cavaliers' Health in Chatterbox will always remain a Mystery.

Thank Goodness Margaret collecting the Bodies of Cavaliers who have died ,in order that their Tissue can be being used by the Different Researchers into the Cavaliers Health Problems, so Please remember Folks, if you are able to do this ,it will be such a benefit for giving our Cavaliers the Chance of Healthier, Longer Lives .

We now have learned that the 85 Whelps Researched ,all had CM,so back to the Question.

CAN THE CAVALIER BE SAVED?

Now that we have Learned that Some Cavalier Breeders are putting Obstacles in the way of the Researchers trying to Achieve this,it is up to us Folk who Love the Cavalier Breed to get the Message accross to the Cavalier Buying Public, only Buy a Cavalier from a Cavalier Breeder who is Health Testing their Cavalier Breeding Stock, and Following the Breeding Guideline Recommendations.

Finally can I say on a Personal Note, at the end of 2010 ,I am so Pleased that I Received the Vile Anonymous Letter that was sent to me, that I have had Many Abusive Remarks made to me on Other Cavalier Forums, that my Mental State was Questioned by a Newly Elected Member of the CKCS CLUB COMMITTEE,it goes to Prove that I am Hitting the Raw Nerves of some of those Cavalier Folk.!!!!

ALL THE VERY BEST TO YOU ALL ON THIS LIST FOR 2011

AND LANG MAY YOUR LUM REEK.

Bet

Brian M
27th December 2010, 12:57 PM
Hello Bet

What I wish for 2011 is the naming and shaming of any club member who does not adhere to the Cavalier and Kennel Clubs guidelines for breeding and health testing and equally our whole hearted support for all members who do adhere to these guidelines and for the Kennel Club to refuse registration or any puppy without all the necessary certificates to prove compliance.

If as I hear, there are prominent and well known breeders who often ignore these guidelines how I so wish these people would be publicly named and shamed and cast out from their own respective clubs or persuaded to comply with their own Clubs rules as then I am sure we could all then move forward .

We may not be able to affect the many BYB and Puppy Farms but how I also wish Club members would use their own influence and knowledge by stamping out this problem within their own ranks and all Cavalier lovers would then able to show a united front with pet people fully supporting the breeders and breeders supporting their puppy owners and then we all be able to move forward to help save our breed as one .

This is my wish for 2011 .

Brian and
Poppy ,Daisy ,Rosie and Lily

Bet
27th December 2010, 01:20 PM
Hello Bet

What I wish for 2011 is the naming and shaming of any club member who does not adhere to the Cavalier and Kennel Clubs guidelines for breeding and health testing and equally our whole hearted support for all members who do adhere to these guidelines and for the Kennel Club to refuse registration or any puppy without all the necessary certificates to prove compliance.

If as I hear, there are prominent and well known breeders who often ignore these guidelines how I so wish these people would be publicly named and shamed and cast out from their own respective clubs or persuaded to comply with their own Clubs rules as then I am sure we could all then move forward .

We may not be able to affect the many BYB and Puppy Farms but how I also wish Club members would use their own influence and knowledge by stamping out this problem within their own ranks and all Cavalier lovers would then able to show a united front with pet people fully supporting the breeders and breeders supporting their puppy owners and then we all be able to move forward to help save our breed as one .

This is my wish for 2011 .

Brian and
Poppy ,Daisy ,Rosie and Lily

CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

Thanks Brian for your Post,

I think that now so Many of us Cavalier Lovers have Realized just what we are up against, we must do all in our Power to Curtail the Activities, of those who are Holding so Much Power in the Cavalier World.

It is the Cavalier Pet Owning Public, who have the Most Cavaliers, not the Few Vociferous Cavalier Breeders who are Shouting the Loudest and doing so much harm to our Cavaliers.

Let us all stand to-gether in 2011 and see what we can Achieve

Let Those Few Vociferous Cavalier Breeders who are Damaging our Cherished Cavaliers so much be made to take a Back Seat before they Finish Cavaliers off all to-gether.

Bet

anniemac
27th December 2010, 09:55 PM
I have spent some time today looking at things and I will post more later but I wanted to say this.

I have been shocked by just how much politics are involved with dogs who in the end are the ones who suffer so what are we doing to our friends? After reading things online, comments on other forums, websites, and responses to the either the Pedigree Dogs Exposed aftermath or about responses for reasons why KC/BVA scheme reference SM was postponed. I know we are not supposed to talk about other threads but it was a rude awakening.

I live in the USA so even though PDE was shown it did not get the reaction that it has in the UK. I am not sure what channel and I am sure it did not get the press that it did in the UK. So I went to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedigree_Dogs_Exposed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedigree_Dogs_Exposed) and also to other websites to get information. I know blogs, forums, etc. is not a good resource but it did give me a really negative view of just how defensive some people are. I don’t think I came up with an answer to why the KC/BVA scheme was postponed just comments that I will not mention. I guess this quote might be true
“Politics is the art of postponing decisions until they are no longer relevant. (http://thinkexist.com/quotation/politics_is_the_art_of_postponing_decisions_until/208981.html)”
Henri Queuille quotes (http://thinkexist.com/quotes/henri_queuille/)


So anyone who wants to make an excuse, blame others, etc are not credible in my book. I simply don’t care. I know there are breeders that are doing health tests but until there is enforcement and those are recognized, improvements made, it really is just talk and has no merit.
“The more you are willing to accept responsibility for your actions, the more credibility you will have (http://thinkexist.com/quotation/the_more_you_are_willing_to_accept_responsibility/190423.html)”
Brian Koslow quotes (http://thinkexist.com/quotes/brian_koslow/) (American (http://thinkexist.com/nationality/american_authors/) author and entrepreneur)

Margaret has great blogs that I read and highlighted to quote but I feel since I live in the US, my focus should be there. But I wanted to quote one thing because it is something that is true everywhere.

“I had become convinced that the only way things were going to change was for the pet buying public to know that there were serious inherited problems in the breed.


A well informed public that demanded to see evidence that the dogs were health tested was the only factor that would persuade breeders to change. “ Margaret


I feel since I live in the US, I have no place to comment or demand changes in the Cavalier Club in the UK. I think that Margaret and others on this forum are doing a good job.

What I found in the US is there are many great articles and advice on Club websites but what is being done to follow it? I can not find the SM breeding protocol. How can I or other pet owners support those who are doing, educate and question what is being done?

I am working on that. I will say they have great articles but what is it "Actions speak louder than words". So let me try listen to that advice and try to do something.

Jerold S Bell, DVM
Tufts Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine, N. Grafton, MA


(This article originally appeared in the “Healthy Dog” section of the October, 2003 AKC Gazette)
Working together to improve our breeds


“Reducing the stigma of genetic disease involves raising the level of conversation from gossip to constructive communication.

anniemac
27th December 2010, 10:10 PM
That post was all over the place :)

I see what reaction and pressure is actually doing and even though things are postponed, I wonder why are we not having talks?

I know there was a response from the Today show piece on PDE at one time but I can't find it anymore.

There are great research and breeders trying but how do we know?

There seems to be a health registry starting but I want the public to know these things and put pressure on it.

Also one club has fines for breeding under a year or over 8, can't that be changed to enforce the MVD protocol and let us say how great we are doing.

It actually could help people want to buy from those doing

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

RodRussell
28th December 2010, 02:38 AM
...What I found in the US is there are many great articles and advice on Club websites but what is being done to follow it? I can not find the SM breeding protocol. How can I or other pet owners support those who are doing, educate and question what is being done? ...

Yes, it is a fact: the syringomyelia breeding protocol is not to be found on either of the USA's national CKCS club websites (it is, however, here: http://www.cavalierhealth.org/smprotocol.htm#International_Syringomyelia).

And, neither is the mitral valve disease breeding protocol (http://cavalierhealth.org/mvdprotocol.htm#The_MVD_Protocol_) to be found on the AKC's cavalier parent club website, that of the American Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Club (ACKCSC). But that is not surprising, because the ACKCSC steadfastly has refused to ever acknowledge the existence of the MVD breeding protocol. Instead, it has made up a bogus protocol:


Currently, the recommended practice is to wait until a Cavalier is two years old or older before the first breeding and to know the parents and ancestral cardiac status. Cavaliers with early onset presentations of MVD (before four years of age) should not be bred and breeders need to work with the guidance of their cardiologists. http://ackcsc.org/health/hearts.html

... whatever that means.

As for the other national club, the CKCSC,USA, that club's board of directors promptly unanimously endorsed the real MVD breeding protocol the same weekend that it was introduced to US breeders in May 1998. But this past April, the CKCSC,USA's board (even though one member of which was also on the 1998 board) dumped the 1998 endorsement of the real MVD breeding protocol and instead, with great pride and fanfare, unveiled its own bogus protocol:


The CKCSC,USA recommends that prior to breeding any Cavalier, the dog have a clear rating at two years of age from an auscultation by a board certified veterinary cardiologist.

Amazingly, the real protocol still is published on the CKCSC,USA's website (http://www.ckcsc.org/ckcsc/ckcsc_inc.nsf/founded-1954/heart.html). Apparently its board members haven't gotten around to expunging it yet.

In a timely veterinary research journal article, published in September of this year, Dr. Clarence Kvart confirmed that anything less than the real MVD breeding protocol has not worked and is a waste of time. So, the bottom line is that neither USA national club is at all serious about eliminating early-onset MVD in future generations of cavaliers. Their mutual attitude is:


To hell with them dogs! Let 'em suffer and die young!!!

Bet
28th December 2010, 11:39 AM
Yes, it is a fact: the syringomyelia breeding protocol is not to be found on either of the USA's national CKCS club websites (it is, however, here: http://www.cavalierhealth.org/smprotocol.htm#International_Syringomyelia).

And, neither is the mitral valve disease breeding protocol (http://cavalierhealth.org/mvdprotocol.htm#The_MVD_Protocol_) to be found on the AKC's cavalier parent club website, that of the American Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Club (ACKCSC). But that is not surprising, because the ACKCSC steadfastly has refused to ever acknowledge the existence of the MVD breeding protocol. Instead, it has made up a bogus protocol:



... whatever that means.

As for the other national club, the CKCSC,USA, that club's board of directors promptly unanimously endorsed the real MVD breeding protocol the same weekend that it was introduced to US breeders in May 1998. But this past April, the CKCSC,USA's board (even though one member of which was also on the 1998 board) dumped the 1998 endorsement of the real MVD breeding protocol and instead, with great pride and fanfare, unveiled its own bogus protocol:



Amazingly, the real protocol still is published on the CKCSC,USA's website (http://www.ckcsc.org/ckcsc/ckcsc_inc.nsf/founded-1954/heart.html). Apparently its board members haven't gotten around to expunging it yet.

In a timely veterinary research journal article, published in September of this year, Dr. Clarence Kvart confirmed that anything less than the real MVD breeding protocol has not worked and is a waste of time. So, the bottom line is that neither USA national club is at all serious about eliminating early-onset MVD in future generations of cavaliers. Their mutual attitude is:


CAN THE CAVALIER BE SAVED?

Because we are working for the Good of the Cavalier Breed ,and I DO NOT INCLUDE THE VOCIFEROUS Few Cavalier Breeders in this Statement ,who are Shouting From the Roof Tops trying to Influence the Cavalier World about what they know about Cavaliers and are doing so much Damage to the Breed by not co-operating with the Researchers into the MVD and SM Problems in the Cavalier Breed , for us who really Love our Beloved Cavaliers ,the Right
Moment will Present itself and we will know how to move forward to Endeavour to save our Cavaliers.

Whether it will be by giving all the Information we can to those Researchers who are involved with the Cavaliers' Health Problems ,telling the Buyers of Cavaliers that the Cavalier Breed is a Very Sick Breed at the Moment and only to buy from Cavalier Breeders who are Health Testing and following the Breeding Guideline Recommenadtions in their Cavalier Breeding Stock, and most importantly to see the Proof that this is being done.

This will Happen ,we are in the Majority now, Cavalier Pet Owners, as an Aside ,it was said by a Cavalier Breeder ,that the only Reason why Cavalier Pet Owners have Health Problems in their Cavaliers ,is because they have bought their Cavaliers from Cavalier Puppy Farmers or BYB's of Cavaliers.

I never heard that Excuse given before, some Cavalier Breeders will Grasp at any reason for not taking most of the Blame for the Serious State Cavaliers are in at the Moment because of the Health Problems Afflicting them.

Perhaps it can be Explained ,why most of the MVD Data is from CKCS SHOWS ,this will be CKCS MEMBERS Cavaliers, not from Cavalier Pet Owners.

Bet

.

anniemac
28th December 2010, 04:18 PM
Hello Bet

What I wish for 2011 is the naming and shaming of any club member who does not adhere to the Cavalier and Kennel Clubs guidelines for breeding and health testing and equally our whole hearted support for all members who do adhere to these guidelines and for the Kennel Club to refuse registration or any puppy without all the necessary certificates to prove compliance.

If as I hear, there are prominent and well known breeders who often ignore these guidelines how I so wish these people would be publicly named and shamed and cast out from their own respective clubs or persuaded to comply with their own Clubs rules as then I am sure we could all then move forward .

We may not be able to affect the many BYB and Puppy Farms but how I also wish Club members would use their own influence and knowledge by stamping out this problem within their own ranks and all Cavalier lovers would then able to show a united front with pet people fully supporting the breeders and breeders supporting their puppy owners and then we all be able to move forward to help save our breed as one .

This is my wish for 2011 .

Brian and
Poppy ,Daisy ,Rosie and Lily

This is great Brian and I have been trying to come up with the million dollar question, how to do all this and prevent BYB's. You know if I keep trying to come up with the best solution, the best guidelines, nothing is perfect. That is just stopping the process. I don't know maybe one step at a time. Breeders are not all bad and we all need to support each other and each country, each owner, each dog, vets, rescues, Cavalier Lovers.

Think of a Domino theory. If we put pressure on breeders of the Cavalier Clubs to follow protocol and make it more known to the public, then I think that will help with BYB. No not everyone will be educated and not everyone will ask breeders certain questions but if the clubs set specific guidelines, educate the public to ask breeders certain questions and see the results, then wouldn't that at least stop one or two people from buying from a BYB?

Maybe we can't save all and I wish that these Clubs would stand out so because they actually could help people and educate us. They are the ones that I want to help the breed and the ones that know a lot more about Cavaliers and I would never want to breed and have that responsibility. Sorry rambling again.

I have been looking at Puppy Mill legislation in the US, how to stop BYB, club websites, and then not to mention looking at videos of shelters (not with Cavaliers) and sobbing. It is hard to love animals and the more I look into it, the more questions I have.

rida
28th December 2010, 07:32 PM
CAN THE CAVALIER BE SAVED?
Perhaps it can be Explained ,why most of the MVD Data is from CKCS SHOWS ,this will be CKCS MEMBERS Cavaliers, not from Cavalier Pet Owners.
Bet


Your giving out wrong infomation as i have read in the past that infomation came from the data collected from VETS and not CKCS SHOWS.

RodRussell
28th December 2010, 11:18 PM
Well, what do you know?! The CKCSC,USA's board actually did tweak the abomination of an MVD breeding protocol which it had passed in April, when it dumped the REAL MVD breeding protocol which an earlier -- and far wiser -- board had passed 12 years ago.

Here is the latest version, which the present board apparently voted on at its October meeting and just slithered out for public viewing in the current issue of The Bulletin:


The CKCSC,USA recommends that prior to breeding any Cavalier, the dog should have a heart clearance from an auscultation by a board certified veterinary cardiologist that is consistent with prevailing cardiology protocols; however, the CKCSC,USA recommends a minimum of a cardiology clearance at age 2.5 years by a board certified cardiologist.

So, apparently we get back A THIRD of the REAL protocol, leaving out these two essential elements:

• Do not breed any Cavalier under the age of 5 years, unless its parents' hearts were free of MVD murmurs by age 5 years.

• Do not breed any Cavalier who is diagnosed with an MVD murmur under the age of 5 years.

Should we be grateful for whatever crumbs the highnesses choose to throw our way? I think NOT!!! Write to these people and tell them that they should hide their obvious contempt for future generations of cavaliers, and that they should swallow their bottomless pride, and REINSTATE THE ENTIRE REAL MVD BREEDING PROTOCOL!!!

Their email addies are here: http://www.ckcsc.org/ckcsc/ckcsc_inc.nsf/Founded-1954/nationalbod.html And read this new editorial about the subject, which I found on line: http://www.cavalierhealth.org/editorial.htm

anniemac
29th December 2010, 12:11 AM
Rod,

I am so confused. I still see under the heart information on health http://www.ckcsc.org/ckcsc/ckcsc_inc.nsf/founded-1954/heart.html

"The panelists concluded that, ideally, Cavaliers should be 5 years of age or older and heart-clear when they are first bred. However, recognizing the problems associated with breeding females for the first time at 5 years of age, the following was recommended as a secondary approach to reducing the incidence of MVD:

The Brood Bitch should be a minimum of two and a half years old with a clear heart and with both parents with clear heart certificates issued at five years of age or older.

The Stud Dog should be a minimum of two and a half years old with a clear heart and with both parents with clear heart certificates issued at five years of age or older.

All clear heart certificates must be signed by Board Certified Veterinary Cardiologists.

To use an older stud dog with a clear heart certificate issued as late in life as possible is highly desirable. However, an older dog with a slight murmur should not be ignored. It is strongly advised that breeding stock under 5 years old be limited to those with clear heart certificates.

The extent of MVD can be decreased, and the age of onset can be delayed, by breeding only Cavaliers which have been examined by Board Certified Veterinary Cardiologists at age 2 1/2 years or older and found free of MVD murmurs, AND whose parents were similarly examined at age 5 years or older and found to be murmur-free. We refer to these dogs as being “Heart-Clear”.

Raising the age of onset of MVD should be every breeder's immediate aim. The best way to approach this is to select breeding stock with good heart records behind them. It is strongly recommended that ALL Cavaliers be auscultated (examined with a stethoscope) by a Board Certified Veterinary Cardiologist at 2 1/2 years of age or older and annually thereafter, especially within a year of being bred, and the results submitted to the Health Registry.

These guidelines are based on the current recommendations of geneticists and cardiologists and may be updated and reissued by the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Club, USA when further research becomes available.


CKCSC’S Ongoing Commitment To Healthy Cavaliers

The CKCSC has initiated an Open Health Registry (http://www.ckcsc.org/ckcsc/healthreg.nsf/openregbyname?OpenView&Count=40) where heart certificate results and other health related results for Cavaliers in North America and Canada, from any registry recognized by CKCSC, can be listed. For more information on the Open Health Registry go to Open Health Registry (link to the Introduction to the Open Health Registry). To download the Health Registry form from our website, go here (http://www.ckcsc.org/ckcsc/formsdocs.nsf/forms/A0AB77E1AFE4170586256DCD0064294F).


By initiating and financially supporting this Open Health Registry, CKCSC hopes that the current incidence of Mitral Valve Disease (MVD) (roughly 50% of Cavaliers aged 5 years and approx 98% of 10 years, are affected with MVD) can be substantially reduced starting with the offspring of the first generation of Cavaliers who take part in the Open health Registry program. Significant progress can be measured on an annual basis, as seen by the number of 5 year old heart-clear Cavaliers listed on the Open Health Registry.


CKCSC encourages Regional Clubs to set up Cavalier Health Days at veterinary clinics whereby Cavaliers an be examined by trained specialists for heart problems and other disorders. CKCSC will subsidize these clinics to provide economical health examinations for our Cavaliers.


The assistance of John Bonagura, DVM, MS, Professor and Head of Clinical Cardiology Services, College of Veterinary Medicine, Ohio State University, is greatly appreciated in review of this synopsis.

First I want to know more about the open health registry... but I am trying with all I can but I don't see these changes. However, I am not a member of the Club but I am working on that even though she might not be able to be registered due to something on another post.

I am still trying to figure out the CHIC HEALTH REGISTRY FOR THE CKCS approved by the ACKCSC. Anyway, I printed all of the stuff on cavalierhealth.org and will try to figure this out.

I think that people and breeders in the national clubs know a lot more than any "Hobby" or BYB. I say that it is up to the pet owners to educate and to ask if the breeders are testing for X, Y, Z, what they are doing etc. However we need to support these Clubs because we need them and we need them to help the future of our breed and to Help us, Help them.

Karen and Ruby
29th December 2010, 12:19 AM
In my opinion this has to start from the top and that is the Kennel Club and Government and then it would pass down the lines.

1) The UK KC should STOP registering puppies from breeders that haven't undertaken ALL the necersary health tests on the parents (both Parents) - for our Cavies this should include Heart Certs, MRI scans at the advised protocol, eyes etc
2) Puppies would not be eligable for registration if one or more parents was under 2.5 years at time of Mating.

The government should scrap their idea of bring back dog licences and agree a licence for Breeding dogs where by ANYONE breeding a dog should have a licence to do so and that breeder can only become an Acredited breeder IF all the proper health testing is taken place.

No one should be granted a licence by the council under the Breeding and Sale of Dogs Act for more than say 10 breeding bitches.

This could put a halt to the horendous Puppy Farming industry.

Micro chipping should be made mandatory and pups should be chipped before leaving a breeder. That way they can always be traced back to that breeder and Veterinary professionals could have a means to report those bringing in Pups with out a chip for first vacinations etc


There is too much wrong with alot of our Government legislation in regards to Dog ownership, sale and breeding and I think the government have a lot to answer for.
They are wasting there time and our money on things that dont matter- think of how many millions of the tax payers money was wasted with the ID card scheme that has now been trashed!!!

Any one of the above would be good start and not just for our precious Cavaliers but for all dogs of all breeds suffering in rescue centres, bad homes, pounds and puppy mills!:d*g:

RodRussell
29th December 2010, 01:25 AM
Rod,

I am so confused. I still see under the heart information on health http://www.ckcsc.org/ckcsc/ckcsc_inc.nsf/founded-1954/heart.html...

...First I want to know more about the open health registry... but I am trying with all I can but I don't see these changes. However, I am not a member of the Club but I am working on that even though she might not be able to be registered due to something on another post.

I am still trying to figure out the CHIC HEALTH REGISTRY FOR THE CKCS approved by the ACKCSC. Anyway, I printed all of the stuff on cavalierhealth.org and will try to figure this out.

I think that people and breeders in the national clubs know a lot more than any "Hobby" or BYB. I say that it is up to the pet owners to educate and to ask if the breeders are testing for X, Y, Z, what they are doing etc. However we need to support these Clubs because we need them and we need them to help the future of our breed and to Help us, Help them.

You have every reason to be confused by the CKCSC,USA's website. The health pages of the website were maintained by Anne Eckersley-Robins (breeder of Chadwick Cavaliers), who until recently was chairman of the club's Health & Education Committee. She resigned this year after the club's board of directors passed that stupid bogus MVD protocol in April ("The CKCSC,USA recommends that prior to breeding any Cavalier, the dog have a clear rating at two years of age from an auscultation by a board certified veterinary cardiologist."). She was president of the club in 1998 when the MVD protocol was introduced at the Atlanta symposium, and she got the club board to unanimously endorse the REAL MVD protocol in May 1998. She had every reason to be upset by the current board's actions and resign.

Anyway, I think it is just a matter of time before her writings about MVD on the website get revised -- "cleansed", if you will -- because the current board now is denying that the club ever endorsed the REAL protocol, and Anne's writings on the health pages prove that claim to be a lie and how foolish the current board is behaving.

Anne, what are your questions about the CKCSC,USA's health registry and CHIC? Anne Eckersley-Robins and my bride set up the CKCSC,USA health registry in 1998, and my bride ran it for its first four years.

anniemac
29th December 2010, 02:27 AM
It takes me time to go through everything but CHIC seems wonderful and its mentioned but again are people doing it? I see these things and tools out there even information on why its useful, but things are only good if people do them. I noticed Anne has the registery information on the website and she has a lot of entries. There are articles information tools for researchers but I hope people use them.


Rod I sent you an email because I wanted more information about clinics

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

anniemac
29th December 2010, 02:32 AM
Anne did a good thing and such a backwards step when I've seen and but I don't have it in front of me, where researchers said even though MVD is a problem, the good thing is if people follow protocols it could be beneficial.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Bet
29th December 2010, 12:43 PM
Anne did a good thing and such a backwards step when I've seen and but I don't have it in front of me, where researchers said even though MVD is a problem, the good thing is if people follow protocols it could be beneficial.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

CAN THE CAVALIER BE SAVED?

Unfortunately here in Britain ,even although the UK CKCS CLUB has issued Breeding Guideline Recommendations ,it still allows Committee Members to use Under Age Cavaliers for Breeding.

When this brought to the Attention of the Cavalier World here, there is Cyber Bullying, and Baiting carried out by a Few Vociferous Cavalier Breeders because we are Inconvenient Challengers to their Cosy Cavalier World.

They try to do as much Damage to us who Love our Cavalier Breed by Spreading Lies and Innuendoes against us because we have Dared to mention that this is happening.

Bet

anniemac
29th December 2010, 05:57 PM
Hello Bet

What I wish for 2011 is the naming and shaming of any club member who does not adhere to the Cavalier and Kennel Clubs guidelines for breeding and health testing and equally our whole hearted support for all members who do adhere to these guidelines and for the Kennel Club to refuse registration or any puppy without all the necessary certificates to prove compliance.

If as I hear, there are prominent and well known breeders who often ignore these guidelines how I so wish these people would be publicly named and shamed and cast out from their own respective clubs or persuaded to comply with their own Clubs rules as then I am sure we could all then move forward .

We may not be able to affect the many BYB and Puppy Farms but how I also wish Club members would use their own influence and knowledge by stamping out this problem within their own ranks and all Cavalier lovers would then able to show a united front with pet people fully supporting the breeders and breeders supporting their puppy owners and then we all be able to move forward to help save our breed as one .

This is my wish for 2011 .

Brian and
Poppy ,Daisy ,Rosie and Lily

Ella's fathers Pedigree has several UK Cavalier Champions which even though I am not in the UK or a member of the Cavalier Club I want to know if they are now following this protocol and be pressured. There are a couple that were Champions and was told they are well known. I am pretty sure some of her SM genes were from some of her line. So I really want to know if they are now without naming on the forum (I think that is one of the guidelines) I would like for either you Brian or someone else in the UK to help find out. I don't know if it is just because of his line or if her mother also contributed, but I feel that even though this was a long time ago (her great grandfather) I want to make sure they are not one of these breeders you are talking about because if they still are ones ignoring this I would like to give them a piece of my mind. If they did not know then, fine, but if they know now and not doing anything with that knowledge shame.

Davecav
29th December 2010, 06:40 PM
I know you must be angry that your girl is suffering with SM, but it would be wrong to assume that a particular dog or dogs in her pedigree were contributors of the gene(s) that cause the condition, unless it can be proved that those dogs have produced offspring with the condition.
There are lots of dogs in any pedigree - though in cavaliers - we have been told they all goback to a small number of dogs. I think it's fair to say this would be the case with any pedigree dog, as breeders of a new breed have to start somewhere.
If you assume that it is a particular dog or dogs and you are wrong, then giving a breeder a piece of your mind for something they didn't do could be construde as a bit unfair. ;) (just because a breeder does - or does not follow guidelines, doesn't garantee healthy or unhealthy pups - reasearchers have set the age to breed as a guideline to help, so that if there are early signs of the condition, those dogs should not be bred from)
How old were the UK champions when they produced the offspring that are also in your girls pedigree? if they were over 2.5yrs old at that time - then at that point no guidelines were contravened as far as I can see.

sins
29th December 2010, 07:29 PM
You obviously have a very beautiful and well bred cavalier.
I would agree to a certain extent with DaveCav.It's impossible to hold any one dog responsible for SM within a 4 generation pedigree.Which dog (or dogs) have contributed is almost impossible to say.There were no "obvious" candidates within my girl's pedigree but still she was affected.
As for following protocols,the breeding guidelines re: SM were issued in 2007???
and included in the CKCS club code of best practice this summer.No doubt someone will correct me if this is wrong.
SM had taken a hold in the breed long before there were protocols or Mri scanning.
Even if a breeder now follows the breeding guidelines,they are still allowed to breed from an affected animal if the other mate is unaffected in order to maintain genetic diversity.Even if two unaffected cavaliers are mated over 2.5 years,they can still produce an SM affected offspring(although the chances are significantly reduced).
*See Margarets Blog BVA/Kc seminar for info from studies on this.
Breeding protocols and guidelines still haven't captured the imagination of the cavalier breeding world anywhere...they are not mandatory and enforcable.
There has always been export of cavalier stock worldwide from the UK and the onus really is on the purchaser/importer to ensure that any breeding stock being brought in has it's health status verified before breeding from it.
Responsibility for the litter rests with the breeder...as it is he/she who makes the decision to breed..
The information regarding SM is widely publicised now and there's little excuse for believing it to be an obscure or "rare" condition.
Ultimately it is the pet owner who gets the raw deal and the cavalier the pain and suffering.
Sins

Bet
29th December 2010, 07:40 PM
I know you must be angry that your girl is suffering with SM, but it would be wrong to assume that a particular dog or dogs in her pedigree were contributors of the gene(s) that cause the condition, unless it can be proved that those dogs have produced offspring with the condition.
There are lots of dogs in any pedigree - though in cavaliers - we have been told they all goback to a small number of dogs. I think it's fair to say this would be the case with any pedigree dog, as breeders of a new breed have to start somewhere.
If you assume that it is a particular dog or dogs and you are wrong, then giving a breeder a piece of your mind for something they didn't do could be construde as a bit unfair. ;) (just because a breeder does - or does not follow guidelines, doesn't garantee healthy or unhealthy pups - reasearchers have set the age to breed as a guideline to help, so that if there are early signs of the condition, those dogs should not be bred from)
How old were the UK champions when they produced the offspring that are also in your girls pedigree? if they were over 2.5yrs old at that time - then at that point no guidelines were contravened as far as I can see.

CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

Davecav,

What I have mentioned is that UK CKCS CLUB COMMITTEE Member has used an Under Age Cavalier in the Breeding Program.

This has been seen in the Kennel Club's Cavaliers Breed Supplement, if this is Happening what use are the CKCS CLUB'S Breeding Guideline Recommendations when a Committee Member is doing this.

This surely is a Poor Example of the CKCS CLUB COMMITTEE letting this be taking place.

Bet

anniemac
29th December 2010, 07:51 PM
I agree I went a little too far. They can't be responsible for something way back when. I actually want to support the breeders because I think the future lies in not only their hands but pet owners to be educated and ask the right questions to support them. I am in no way blaming this on that one breeder because really it should have been her father and mother that was scanned in the first place. You can't go back to one line and I understand that. They had no idea about those things back then but I am curious if they do now. However I never even blamed Ella's breeder because even though she said Ella was the first she heard of this and she will start scanning I was pleased because I thought she was concerned. I read "For the Love of Ollie" and the note from the breeder and it put things to light about just how aweful breeders can feel if one of the puppies ends up getting SM. I have also talked to breeder friends with the same concern.

I don't ever want to blame breeders especially for something so long ago but if breeders know that there is evidence of what can happen if both are not scanned, if one should be mated with an A or whatever and ignores the information, then it upsets me. Mainly because we are the ones that are either the 50% that are lucky or the other. Listen, If in the US the breeders that do things were recognized and rewarded or in the UK, that would be awesome.

It makes me even more upset when I pull up a search for CKCS puppies in my state and see tons of listings and people wind up wanting to ignore asking if they health test and just want a cheaper puppy and wind up buying from a BYB.

Even if it has nothing to do with her, I am curious in the US, UK, or any other country who is scanning etc. In the US, I can't even see the protocol even listed. I would love to be able to help the clubs, breeders, pet owners, share information to help the breed and in a positive light, but what is the problem with asking if they are scanning now.

I guess I should not have said I would give him a piece of my mind because I wouldn't. Sometimes we can get upset and say things out of frustration.

Bet
30th December 2010, 11:11 AM
CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

Davecav,

What I have mentioned is that UK CKCS CLUB COMMITTEE Member has used an Under Age Cavalier in the Breeding Program.

This has been seen in the Kennel Club's Cavaliers Breed Supplement, if this is Happening what use are the CKCS CLUB'S Breeding Guideline Recommendations when a Committee Member is doing this.

This surely is a Poor Example of the CKCS CLUB COMMITTEE letting this be taking place.

Bet


CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?


Just having the Article which is the Head-lines in this Week's DOG WORLD , this is about the First Time I have been given Hope for the Future of our Beloved Cavalier Breed.

If I could give some of the Details from a Meeting that was held about a week ago between the DOG ADVISORY COUNCIL and APGAW,the PARLIAMENTARY GROUP.

Professor S.Crispin, Chairman of the Dog Advisory Council said that the Key Issues include Identifying and Tackling HEALTH ISSUES.

Developing a Breeder Assurance Scheme

Defining Good Breeding

Developing Guidance on how to BUY a DOG

Reviewiningall Canine Legislation

Professor Crispin also said that the Council intended to Start Work Immediately on these Matters,that the Members of the Council would be Consulting relevant Orginizations ,examining Available Data and Information and drawing on Views generally.

Many other Folk were at this Meeting including the BVA President,Harvey Locke ,he said that it should be Prioritised to the Dog Buying Public ,that when Buying a Dog ,the Health and Temperment comes before the Dog's Appearance .

That the BVA is now pushing for Puppy Contracts.

One very Important thing that was mentioned by Professor Crispin was that Two of the Sources the Data will be collected from will be ,the DATA from Insurance Companies and the BVA/KC CANINE HEALTH SCHEMES,this Data will be Analysed to Produce a List of the Top Welfare Issues and Breed Priorities ,and the Council will Devise an Effective System for Addressing HEALTH PROBLEMS once they are Identified .

It was also agreed that the Conditions which Cause the Worst Welfare Problems should be Found( May I Mention MVD and SM in our Cavalier Breed) and Provide Routes and Tools for Resolving them.

The Initial Phase will be to Develope CLEAR CRITERIA for Selecting the Conditions which Cause the Most Serious Welfare Problems.

The APGAW's Chairman ,Neil Parish, MP,would be taking the Key messages to the Government.

Finally my Personal Comment on this Momentous Action to be taken on Behalf of Our Dogs,

WOULD THIS EVER HAVE HAPPENED BUT FOR THE PEDIGREE DOGS EXPOSED TV PROGRAM and JEMIMA HARRISON.

We who Love our 4 Legged Friends and Wish them to have the Chance of Healthier ,Longer Lives have so much to Thank Her For,

Also can I include ,KARLIN, MARGARET and CAROL on behalf of we who Love our Cherished Cavaliers for making this Great Event Happen.

THANK YOU ALL.

Bet

Bet
31st December 2010, 07:08 PM
CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?


Just having the Article which is the Head-lines in this Week's DOG WORLD , this is about the First Time I have been given Hope for the Future of our Beloved Cavalier Breed.

If I could give some of the Details from a Meeting that was held about a week ago between the DOG ADVISORY COUNCIL and APGAW,the PARLIAMENTARY GROUP.

Professor S.Crispin, Chairman of the Dog Advisory Council said that the Key Issues include Identifying and Tackling HEALTH ISSUES.

Developing a Breeder Assurance Scheme

Defining Good Breeding

Developing Guidance on how to BUY a DOG

Reviewiningall Canine Legislation

Professor Crispin also said that the Council intended to Start Work Immediately on these Matters,that the Members of the Council would be Consulting relevant Orginizations ,examining Available Data and Information and drawing on Views generally.

Many other Folk were at this Meeting including the BVA President,Harvey Locke ,he said that it should be Prioritised to the Dog Buying Public ,that when Buying a Dog ,the Health and Temperment comes before the Dog's Appearance .

That the BVA is now pushing for Puppy Contracts.

One very Important thing that was mentioned by Professor Crispin was that Two of the Sources the Data will be collected from will be ,the DATA from Insurance Companies and the BVA/KC CANINE HEALTH SCHEMES,this Data will be Analysed to Produce a List of the Top Welfare Issues and Breed Priorities ,and the Council will Devise an Effective System for Addressing HEALTH PROBLEMS once they are Identified .

It was also agreed that the Conditions which Cause the Worst Welfare Problems should be Found( May I Mention MVD and SM in our Cavalier Breed) and Provide Routes and Tools for Resolving them.

The Initial Phase will be to Develope CLEAR CRITERIA for Selecting the Conditions which Cause the Most Serious Welfare Problems.

The APGAW's Chairman ,Neil Parish, MP,would be taking the Key messages to the Government.

Finally my Personal Comment on this Momentous Action to be taken on Behalf of Our Dogs,

WOULD THIS EVER HAVE HAPPENED BUT FOR THE PEDIGREE DOGS EXPOSED TV PROGRAM and JEMIMA HARRISON.

We who Love our 4 Legged Friends and Wish them to have the Chance of Healthier ,Longer Lives have so much to Thank Her For,

Also can I include ,KARLIN, MARGARET and CAROL on behalf of we who Love our Cherished Cavaliers for making this Great Event Happen.

THANK YOU ALL.

Bet

CAN THE CAVALIER BE SAVED?


As we are about to enter 2011 ,for us who really Love Cavaliers ,will now have to Accept that the Few Vociferous Cavalier Breeders who are Damaging the Cavalier Breed will never change their Views about our Breed ,that they just do not believe that Cavaliers have Health Problems , even if a Cavalier was Screaming in Pain from SM ,or was having Difficulty Breathing because of MVD, standing in front of those Few Cavalier Breeders ,their Attitude is never going to Change to the Cavalier Health Problems .

Those Vociferous Few Cavalier Breeders ,whose numbers are getting less and less ,will always believe that we who do Care about how our Cavaliers are Suffering from SM and MVD ,and mention those Health Problems on the Internet are only out to cause trouble, and it us who are causing the Trouble for the Breed.

What a Sad Out-Look to have.

Hopefully those Few Cavalier Breeders will be left behind in 2011 and the Rest of Us move Forward and do All We Can to try to Help Cavaliers suffering from the SM and MVD Problems that are Afflicting them.

Thank You All who have Read my Posts ,I know some-times I have not Minced My Words about the Health Problems in our Cherished Breed, but I have been Fighting their Cause now for over 20 years, and some-times you do Wonder at the Attitude of some of Those Few Breeders.

Bet

Bet
3rd January 2011, 10:37 AM
CAN THE CAVALIER BE SAVED?


As we are about to enter 2011 ,for us who really Love Cavaliers ,will now have to Accept that the Few Vociferous Cavalier Breeders who are Damaging the Cavalier Breed will never change their Views about our Breed ,that they just do not believe that Cavaliers have Health Problems , even if a Cavalier was Screaming in Pain from SM ,or was having Difficulty Breathing because of MVD, standing in front of those Few Cavalier Breeders ,their Attitude is never going to Change to the Cavalier Health Problems .

Those Vociferous Few Cavalier Breeders ,whose numbers are getting less and less ,will always believe that we who do Care about how our Cavaliers are Suffering from SM and MVD ,and mention those Health Problems on the Internet are only out to cause trouble, and it us who are causing the Trouble for the Breed.

What a Sad Out-Look to have.

Hopefully those Few Cavalier Breeders will be left behind in 2011 and the Rest of Us move Forward and do All We Can to try to Help Cavaliers suffering from the SM and MVD Problems that are Afflicting them.

Thank You All who have Read my Posts ,I know some-times I have not Minced My Words about the Health Problems in our Cherished Breed, but I have been Fighting their Cause now for over 20 years, and some-times you do Wonder at the Attitude of some of Those Few Breeders.

Bet

CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

This will be the Unknown for 2011.

How can this be done ,unless the Cavalier Breeders follow the Breeding Guideline Recommendations ,and give the Researchers all the Help that they need.

Also there is still so much Animosity from some in the Cavalier World towards us Cavalier Lovers who are trying to help to improve the Health of our Cavaliers when we Put our Heads above the Parapit and dare mention the Health Problems in our Cherished Cavaliers.

This is so Distressing for we Folk who are Honest enough to know and say that the Cavalier Breed is in Serious Trouble because of the Health Problems that is Afflicting the Breed,and could be in Danger of not Surviving.

I know that there are Some Cavalier Breeders doing their Utmost to give Cavaliers a Future but ,and it is a Big But that there are some even at the Level of the UK CKCS CLUB COMMITTEE who are not doing this.

What I just cannot understand is why when the Problems of SM and MVD in Cavaliers are mentioned by some of us, we are Accused of Cavalier Breeder Bashing.

If the Cavaliers did not have those Health Conditions , we would never need to Mention them.

Hopefully some of the Help needed for our Cavaliers will come from the Dog Advisory Council.

Bet

Bet
10th January 2011, 11:50 AM
CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

This will be the Unknown for 2011.

How can this be done ,unless the Cavalier Breeders follow the Breeding Guideline Recommendations ,and give the Researchers all the Help that they need.

Also there is still so much Animosity from some in the Cavalier World towards us Cavalier Lovers who are trying to help to improve the Health of our Cavaliers when we Put our Heads above the Parapit and dare mention the Health Problems in our Cherished Cavaliers.

This is so Distressing for we Folk who are Honest enough to know and say that the Cavalier Breed is in Serious Trouble because of the Health Problems that is Afflicting the Breed,and could be in Danger of not Surviving.

I know that there are Some Cavalier Breeders doing their Utmost to give Cavaliers a Future but ,and it is a Big But that there are some even at the Level of the UK CKCS CLUB COMMITTEE who are not doing this.

What I just cannot understand is why when the Problems of SM and MVD in Cavaliers are mentioned by some of us, we are Accused of Cavalier Breeder Bashing.

If the Cavaliers did not have those Health Conditions , we would never need to Mention them.

Hopefully some of the Help needed for our Cavaliers will come from the Dog Advisory Council.

Bet

CAN THE CAVALIER BE SAVED?

This will be an uphill Struggle as has been shown by a Certain Few Cavalier Breeders who seem to have no Concerns for the Future of the Cavalier Breed.

I am sure many Lovers of Cavaliers will have been Disgusted and Shocked recently by the Tactics Employed by those Few Breeders who will go to any Lengths to try and Stop the Information needed by the Researchers being given.

They seem to be Running Scared that with the BVA/KC MRI Scanning Scheme, this Information will be Released,this is why there is to be a Meeting with the Kennel Club on 3-2-2011for this Subject in Particular to be Discussed.

Can those Few Breeders not realize the Damage they are doing to our Cavalier Breed, and making them-selves such a Laughing Stock in the Dog World.

They are a Spent Force now.

The Cavalier World can do well with-out them and let all who Truly Love Cavaliers move on to try and Save our Beloved Breed.

Bet

Bet
16th January 2011, 11:26 AM
CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

This will be the Unknown for 2011.

How can this be done ,unless the Cavalier Breeders follow the Breeding Guideline Recommendations ,and give the Researchers all the Help that they need.

Also there is still so much Animosity from some in the Cavalier World towards us Cavalier Lovers who are trying to help to improve the Health of our Cavaliers when we Put our Heads above the Parapit and dare mention the Health Problems in our Cherished Cavaliers.

This is so Distressing for we Folk who are Honest enough to know and say that the Cavalier Breed is in Serious Trouble because of the Health Problems that is Afflicting the Breed,and could be in Danger of not Surviving.

I know that there are Some Cavalier Breeders doing their Utmost to give Cavaliers a Future but ,and it is a Big But that there are some even at the Level of the UK CKCS CLUB COMMITTEE who are not doing this.

What I just cannot understand is why when the Problems of SM and MVD in Cavaliers are mentioned by some of us, we are Accused of Cavalier Breeder Bashing.

If the Cavaliers did not have those Health Conditions , we would never need to Mention them.

Hopefully some of the Help needed for our Cavaliers will come from the Dog Advisory Council.

Bet

CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

Should the Question be, IS IT TOO LATE TO SAVE THE CAVALIER BREED.

Has the Time now come to Stop Kidding Ourselves and Face up to the Facts about the Serious Plight the Cavaliers are in because of their Serious Health Problems of SM and MVD.

No Amount of Spinning by some Cavalier Breeders can Hide this Truth.

We now know that in the Foetal Research , all of the 85 Whelps had CM.

That in a SM Report from Australia in 2010 ,of the 60 Cavaliers for Cavalier Breeding Stock,MRI Scanned by the Neurologist 50% had SM.

Even more Frightening Information,is that in a Newly Published Paper on SM ,Syrinxes have been found Lower down on the Cavaliers' Vertibrae than Mini MRI Scans had shown,presumeably this could mean that if Cavaliers were given a Full Body MRI SCAN ,more Cavaliers will be found to have SM.

What a Worrying Situation for our Cavaliers.

The Figure of 50% of Cavaliers 5-6 years of age given by Cardiologists have Heart Murmurs ,that this Figure is NO Better than it was 18 years ago.

Is there any other Dog Breed in such Mess Health Wise ,than our Beloved Cavaliers?

I will Repeat my Question,

IS IT TOO LATE TO SAVE THE CAVALIER BREED?

Maybe with the Help from Dog Advisory Council ,Cavaliers will have a Chance, and some Cavalier Breeders Stop their Petty Bickering and their Attitudes change and Face up to Facts about the Health Troubles in our Breed and give all the Help Needed to the Researchers ,also agreeing to the KC/ BVA MRI SCHEME moving Forward which the SM Researchers say is Imperative for the EBV Scheme, then our Cavaliers can be saved .

I surely do Hope so .

Bet

Nicki
16th January 2011, 12:04 PM
Even more Frightening Information,is that in a Newly Published Paper on SM ,Syrinxes have been found Lower down on the Cavaliers' Vertebrae than Mini MRI Scans had shown,presumably this could mean that if Cavaliers were given a Full Body MRI SCAN ,more Cavaliers will be found to have SM.



Bet this isn't quite correct:

Quote from Karlin:

I am told by Dr Rusbridge that with this study, in no case was a dog not correctly diagnosed as in every case with these dogs, the syrinx appeared within the vertebrae included in a mini scan. So this finding would NOT affect a dog being correctly diagnosed with SM and would NOT alter the grade given to a dog in a single case from this sample.


from http://www.cavaliertalk.com/forums/showthread.php?36800-Mini-MRI-scans-miss-lower-syrinxes-in-76-of-studied-SM-affected-cavaliers


Where it might make a difference would be in scanning dog for full diagnosis -- this is why neurologists do NOT recommend using miniscans if you suspect a dog has SM and wish to have an accurate diagnosis of syrinx length, location and number.

Bet
16th January 2011, 12:45 PM
Bet this isn't quite correct:

Quote from Karlin:

I am told by Dr Rusbridge that with this study, in no case was a dog not correctly diagnosed as in every case with these dogs, the syrinx appeared within the vertebrae included in a mini scan. So this finding would NOT affect a dog being correctly diagnosed with SM and would NOT alter the grade given to a dog in a single case from this sample.


from http://www.cavaliertalk.com/forums/showthread.php?36800-Mini-MRI-scans-miss-lower-syrinxes-in-76-of-studied-SM-affected-cavaliers


Where it might make a difference would be in scanning dog for full diagnosis -- this is why neurologists do NOT recommend using miniscans if you suspect a dog has SM and wish to have an accurate diagnosis of syrinx length, location and number.

CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

Just mentioned what Karlin had Quoted.,that "this is the same One Rod notes in an Earlier Thread about 76%of these Dogs also had further Syrinxes Lower than the C5 Vertibrae(and thus Dogs with Syrinxes are Likely to be worse than a Mini Scan will Show.)"

Sorry if I made a wrong Interpretation about this.

Bet

Bet
18th January 2011, 07:14 PM
CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

Just mentioned what Karlin had Quoted.,that "this is the same One Rod notes in an Earlier Thread about 76%of these Dogs also had further Syrinxes Lower than the C5 Vertibrae(and thus Dogs with Syrinxes are Likely to be worse than a Mini Scan will Show.)"

Sorry if I made a wrong Interpretation about this.

Bet

CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED ?

I think this Information will be useful in this Thread .

I really Shows how so Very Important it is to Find the Genes for SM and MVD.

All Proven Carriers of both SM and MVD be With -drawn from Breeding

Since Brothers and Sisters, Sons and Daughters of Proven Carriers also have an Unacceptably High Risk of Being Carriers ,and it is Recommended that they are not Bred from,unless they have been Proven Clear by a Geneticist on the Basis of Restrospective Analysis of their Past Breeding Records ,this requires the Details from the Purchasers of the Puppies .

For Stud Dogs since they can Inflict Major Damage on a Breed should He be a Carrier ,should not be used at Stud within Two Generations.

This was the Advice given to Italian Spinoni Breeders for the Cerebellar Ataxia Problem in that Breed

I have Substituted the SM and MVD Problem in Cavaliers for Carriers of those Two Diseases ,since if they are Carriers ,then the same Effects will also apply as to what can Happen if Carriers are being used in the Cavalier Breed

Bet

Bet
21st January 2011, 07:44 PM
CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED ?

I think this Information will be useful in this Thread .

I really Shows how so Very Important it is to Find the Genes for SM and MVD.

All Proven Carriers of both SM and MVD be With -drawn from Breeding

Since Brothers and Sisters, Sons and Daughters of Proven Carriers also have an Unacceptably High Risk of Being Carriers ,and it is Recommended that they are not Bred from,unless they have been Proven Clear by a Geneticist on the Basis of Restrospective Analysis of their Past Breeding Records ,this requires the Details from the Purchasers of the Puppies .

For Stud Dogs since they can Inflict Major Damage on a Breed should He be a Carrier ,should not be used at Stud within Two Generations.

This was the Advice given to Italian Spinoni Breeders for the Cerebellar Ataxia Problem in that Breed

I have Substituted the SM and MVD Problem in Cavaliers for Carriers of those Two Diseases ,since if they are Carriers ,then the same Effects will also apply as to what can Happen if Carriers are being used in the Cavalier Breed

Bet

CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

Can I also mention that for Cavalier Folk who are Now Confused as to what the Proposed BVA /MRI SCHEME is about, this has appeared on the Club Web Site to-day

The Article says,

THIS IS WHAT IS ON THE TABLE WITH THE BVA MRI SCHEME.

I have just read it, is there any other way that the Cavalier Breed can be Saved at the Moment ,what I was pleased to note that with this Scheme, Heart Information is also included

That an EBV Value is a Combination of the SM and Heart Tests for that Cavalier ,and the Results of all it's Relatives, those on the Pedigree ,the Siblings ,and Off-Springs

Bet

Margaret C
21st January 2011, 11:43 PM
For those members who are now confused as to what the proposed BVA/MRI scheme is about:

This is what is on the table with the BVA MRI scheme:

A formalised scheme embedding permanent identification on/in the dog into the scan so there is no confusion about the identity of the dog, a formal declaration by the owner, and a release form for data for research (and the EBV) and publication of results.
Some scanning centres did not do this verification of identity, and results were not automatically available to research and the EBV. Nothing was published.

A standardised protocol to MRI scan to ensure that the latest findings and research into SM are taken into account on the very best way to perform the MRI scan, ensuring the very best opportunity to determine if a small syrinx is present.
Syrinxes have been missed before. This will enable many more centres throughout the country to participate in the MRI scanning (not the interpretation which will be by a panel).

A formalised standardised interpretation of EXACTLY what is being interpreted, from 2 or even 3 experts from members of a BVA panel, and a formalised grading issued on a certificate. Extra information on CM.
Different interpretation of the same scan will no longer happen, 2 knowledgeable experts’ opinions, not just 1, a 3rd if they disagree. Uniformity of results. A grading, which didn’t happen with all previous scanning centres. More information on certificate.

Information on results published and automatically sent to EBV and available for research.
Individual can verify if dog is scanned when puppy purchased or looking for stud, and the age at which it was performed. Accessibility of information, openess and transparency.

An appeal process.

The meeting of representatives from all Cavalier Clubs on 3 February 2011 is to discuss the publication of results with the Kennel Club.For those members who are confused by the EBV value and how it will work:

EBV Value

The EBV programme is a powerful tool being developed by the AHT for use by the KC to eventually help ALL breeds eliminate complex genetic disease where genetic tests are not available for the condition.

The EBV has a very complex statistical way of working out the EBV value for a dog/bitch, which will keep being modified as results of relatives, and their own test results are received.

All dogs already have an EBV value whether or not any SM or heart results for that particular dog have been received, in that case it is based purely on the information of the relatives. EBV accuracy improves with more results and with age of test result.

An EBV value is a combination of the SM and heart tests for that individual, and the results of all of its relatives – those on his pedigree, his siblings and his offspring. It will not be possible to work out the test results from the EBV value of any dog.

As a tool to use to plan litters, you will be able to use the EBV information of your bitch combined with those of the suggested dog to predict the EBV risk for the litter.

Some dogs with a SM grading of D (a syrinx) may turn out to have a higher EBV value than a dog graded A, or be more suitable as a match for your bitch. Also a SM D graded dog may have a line of very good hearts behind him, so it is essential to keep those genes in the gene pool. Breeding guidelines allow the use of SM affected dogs.

It is vital that genetic diversity is maintained throughout the breed.

Mate Select will help you to determine the coefficient of inbreeding.

http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/health/bva_kc/ebv.gif

Bet
1st February 2011, 12:20 PM
For those members who are now confused as to what the proposed BVA/MRI scheme is about:

This is what is on the table with the BVA MRI scheme:

A formalised scheme embedding permanent identification on/in the dog into the scan so there is no confusion about the identity of the dog, a formal declaration by the owner, and a release form for data for research (and the EBV) and publication of results.
Some scanning centres did not do this verification of identity, and results were not automatically available to research and the EBV. Nothing was published.

A standardised protocol to MRI scan to ensure that the latest findings and research into SM are taken into account on the very best way to perform the MRI scan, ensuring the very best opportunity to determine if a small syrinx is present.
Syrinxes have been missed before. This will enable many more centres throughout the country to participate in the MRI scanning (not the interpretation which will be by a panel).

A formalised standardised interpretation of EXACTLY what is being interpreted, from 2 or even 3 experts from members of a BVA panel, and a formalised grading issued on a certificate. Extra information on CM.
Different interpretation of the same scan will no longer happen, 2 knowledgeable experts’ opinions, not just 1, a 3rd if they disagree. Uniformity of results. A grading, which didn’t happen with all previous scanning centres. More information on certificate.

Information on results published and automatically sent to EBV and available for research.
Individual can verify if dog is scanned when puppy purchased or looking for stud, and the age at which it was performed. Accessibility of information, openess and transparency.

An appeal process.

The meeting of representatives from all Cavalier Clubs on 3 February 2011 is to discuss the publication of results with the Kennel Club.For those members who are confused by the EBV value and how it will work:

EBV Value

The EBV programme is a powerful tool being developed by the AHT for use by the KC to eventually help ALL breeds eliminate complex genetic disease where genetic tests are not available for the condition.

The EBV has a very complex statistical way of working out the EBV value for a dog/bitch, which will keep being modified as results of relatives, and their own test results are received.

All dogs already have an EBV value whether or not any SM or heart results for that particular dog have been received, in that case it is based purely on the information of the relatives. EBV accuracy improves with more results and with age of test result.

An EBV value is a combination of the SM and heart tests for that individual, and the results of all of its relatives – those on his pedigree, his siblings and his offspring. It will not be possible to work out the test results from the EBV value of any dog.

As a tool to use to plan litters, you will be able to use the EBV information of your bitch combined with those of the suggested dog to predict the EBV risk for the litter.

Some dogs with a SM grading of D (a syrinx) may turn out to have a higher EBV value than a dog graded A, or be more suitable as a match for your bitch. Also a SM D graded dog may have a line of very good hearts behind him, so it is essential to keep those genes in the gene pool. Breeding guidelines allow the use of SM affected dogs.

It is vital that genetic diversity is maintained throughout the breed.

Mate Select will help you to determine the coefficient of inbreeding.

http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/health/bva_kc/ebv.gif


CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

Could I add to Margaret's Post, that the EBV Scheme could be the best way for saving our Cavalier Breed at the moment because of the Complex Disorders of SM and MVD that the Breed is suffering from.

The finding of those Genes are so important ,but until they are found,and because Genes can be involved with a Combination of other Genes and are not Single Mutations and Environmental Factors are often involved , this is why the EBV Program is so necessary for our Cavaliers.

Unfortunately there are a Few Blinkered Cavalier Breeders who cannot or will not see the Wood for the Trees and are so Determined to find every Excuse under the Sun that they can for not allowing the MRI Scanning Scheme to go ahead to to help Researchers with the EBV Scheme.

Do they not realize that this is the 21'st Century and not when they Ruled the Roost in the 20'th Century.

There are so many Cavalier Breeders and Owners and Lovers of our Beloved Cavaliers who can understand the Signifigance of the EBV Scheme ,why should those Mean Minded Few Cavalier Breeders be allowed to Hinder the Research Progress into SM and MVD Health Problems in the Breed.

Bet

Bet
14th February 2011, 12:30 PM
CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

Could I add to Margaret's Post, that the EBV Scheme could be the best way for saving our Cavalier Breed at the moment because of the Complex Disorders of SM and MVD that the Breed is suffering from.

The finding of those Genes are so important ,but until they are found,and because Genes can be involved with a Combination of other Genes and are not Single Mutations and Environmental Factors are often involved , this is why the EBV Program is so necessary for our Cavaliers.

Unfortunately there are a Few Blinkered Cavalier Breeders who cannot or will not see the Wood for the Trees and are so Determined to find every Excuse under the Sun that they can for not allowing the MRI Scanning Scheme to go ahead to to help Researchers with the EBV Scheme.

Do they not realize that this is the 21'st Century and not when they Ruled the Roost in the 20'th Century.

There are so many Cavalier Breeders and Owners and Lovers of our Beloved Cavaliers who can understand the Signifigance of the EBV Scheme ,why should those Mean Minded Few Cavalier Breeders be allowed to Hinder the Research Progress into SM and MVD Health Problems in the Breed.

Bet


CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

As far as the Cavalier's MVD Problem is concerned ,I wonder if it can.

I have just had a Reply back from a Research Cardiologist into the Cavaliers' MVD Prblem ,I had asked him if it was possible that the Faulty Heart Genes from those Cavaliers suffering from Heart Trouble in the 1940's and 1950's who were being used for Breeding could have come down through the Generations to present day Cavaliers, and this might be a reason why there does not seem to be much improvement in the MVD Problem in our Cavalier Breed because many of to-day's Cavaliers could be Carriers of the MVD Genes.

His Reply is, Sadly that this is Likely.

So how can this be being solved.

We don't even know about the Mode of Inheritance for MVD in Cavaliers ,this means that the MVD Carriers in Cavaliers cannot be discovered till all this Researched.

There are still some Cavalier Breeders so ignorant that they say they want to get things right before the Health Problems can be tackled for our Beloved Cavaliers.

All I can say is, that the Cavalier Breeders have had since 1983 to get the Cavaliers' MVD Problem tackled ,when that was when they were warned by Dr P. Darke , the CKCS CLUBS Cardiologist,about how serious the MVD Problem was in the Cavalier Breed.

Bet

Davecav
15th February 2011, 12:56 AM
I'm trying to understand all this, so be patient.
Bet says:
I have just had a Reply back from a Research Cardiologist into the Cavaliers' MVD Prblem ,I had asked him if it was possible that the Faulty Heart Genes from those Cavaliers suffering from Heart Trouble in the 1940's and 1950's who were being used for Breeding could have come down through the Generations to present day Cavaliers, and this might be a reason why there does not seem to be much improvement in the MVD Problem in our Cavalier Breed because many of to-day's Cavaliers could be Carriers of the MVD Genes.

His Reply is, Sadly that this is Likely.

From my niave viewpoint, that is the only answer that can be given, because logically this has happened - how else have the genes been passed down?

Bet says:
We don't even know about the Mode of Inheritance for MVD in Cavaliers ,this means that the MVD Carriers in Cavaliers cannot be discovered till all this Researched.

From what I have read on the internet, there is a lot of research being done on MVD or have I got it wrong? So there is still not an answer, which must be very upsetting for all involved, especially those that breed.

Bet says:
There are still some Cavalier Breeders so ignorant that they say they want to get things right before the Health Problems can be tackled for our Beloved Cavaliers.

Please can you point me to where this is actually quoted? becuase I don't understand this at all.
It doesn't make sense, and I would like to see where someone has actually said this so I know it's true.

Bet
15th February 2011, 10:44 AM
I'm trying to understand all this, so be patient.
Bet says:
I have just had a Reply back from a Research Cardiologist into the Cavaliers' MVD Prblem ,I had asked him if it was possible that the Faulty Heart Genes from those Cavaliers suffering from Heart Trouble in the 1940's and 1950's who were being used for Breeding could have come down through the Generations to present day Cavaliers, and this might be a reason why there does not seem to be much improvement in the MVD Problem in our Cavalier Breed because many of to-day's Cavaliers could be Carriers of the MVD Genes.

His Reply is, Sadly that this is Likely.

From my niave viewpoint, that is the only answer that can be given, because logically this has happened - how else have the genes been passed down?

Bet says:
We don't even know about the Mode of Inheritance for MVD in Cavaliers ,this means that the MVD Carriers in Cavaliers cannot be discovered till all this Researched.

From what I have read on the internet, there is a lot of research being done on MVD or have I got it wrong? So there is still not an answer, which must be very upsetting for all involved, especially those that breed.

Bet says:
There are still some Cavalier Breeders so ignorant that they say they want to get things right before the Health Problems can be tackled for our Beloved Cavaliers.

Please can you point me to where this is actually quoted? becuase I don't understand this at all.
It doesn't make sense, and I would like to see where someone has actually said this so I know it's true.


CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

Davecav,

If you E-Mail me I will answer all your Questions.

My E- Mail Adress is

fleek@uwclub.net

Bet

Bet
15th February 2011, 12:17 PM
CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

Davecav,

If you E-Mail me I will answer all your Questions.

My E- Mail Adress is

fleek@uwclub.net

Bet

CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?


Davecav

I have read your Post, I will say again E- Mail me for the details you want to know about, the Quote I mentioned said that we all want to find answers in a Positive Way forward to overcome Health Problems ( this is for our Cavalier Breed),but let us have a Scheme that will Truly Work.

Bet

Davecav
15th February 2011, 12:36 PM
CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?


Davecav

I have read your Post, I will say again E- Mail me for the details you want to know about, the Quote I mentioned said that we all want to find answers in a Positive Way forward to overcome Health Problems ( this is for our Cavalier Breed),but let us have a Scheme that will Truly Work.

Bet

Thanks Bet,

So if I've interpreted the above correctly: 'the breeders are saying they want to find answers in a positive way, and want a scheme that truly works'

This seems like a fair comment from them to me. They are the ones who will have to make it work for the breed, and if there are areas that need fine tuning, or questions that need clarifying, then it seems that this should be done. From what I have read re the recent meeting, the Kennel Club and breed representatives came up with a number of proposals that will be taken back to both the Cavalier clubs, and the Kennel club for agreement.

This to me sounds a normal route to conduct negotiations, and doesn't fit with what you have said in your quote which implies the opposite, and dengrates breeders by calling them ignorant.

Bet
15th February 2011, 02:12 PM
Thanks Bet,

So if I've interpreted the above correctly: 'the breeders are saying they want to find answers in a positive way, and want a scheme that truly works'

This seems like a fair comment from them to me. They are the ones who will have to make it work for the breed, and if there are areas that need fine tuning, or questions that need clarifying, then it seems that this should be done. From what I have read re the recent meeting, the Kennel Club and breed representatives came up with a number of proposals that will be taken back to both the Cavalier clubs, and the Kennel club for agreement.

This to me sounds a normal route to conduct negotiations, and doesn't fit with what you have said in your quote which implies the opposite, and dengrates breeders by calling them ignorant.


CAN The Cavalier Breed BE SAVED ?


Davecav

Could I Gently mention to you, that the Saving and Giving the Cavaliers the Chance of having Healthier and Longer Lives will come from the Researchers and not the Breeders ,it is the Researchers, because we are now living in the 21 st Century who have the Knowledge coupled with the Science are able to deal with SM and the MVD Problems that are Afflicting our Beloved Cavaliers , in Particular their MVD Problem , for which the Cavalier Breeders have known about for well over 20 years,and 50% have a Murmur at 5-6 years of age, and this is quoted by Cartiologists ,not Vets, and is no better than it was 18 years ago, ......

What I would like to know and to be given the Proof ,how many of those MVD Figures have come from Puppy Farm Breeders?

Does any-one know, until this is found out ,this Excuse should stop being used over and over again, as the Excuse that Vets are saying that the Cavaliers' MVD Problem is declining, this can only come from Cardiologists .

NO there is still NO ANSWER to the MODE OF INHERITANCE for MVD in Cavaliers, it has not been found yet.

Health should be the Most Cavalier Breeders Priority ,thank goodness there are some who do really care on how they Breed Cavaliers because it is the Cavalier Pet Owning Public who have most of the Cavaliers.

Bet

Bet
15th February 2011, 06:57 PM
CAN The Cavalier Breed BE SAVED ?


Davecav

Could I Gently mention to you, that the Saving and Giving the Cavaliers the Chance of having Healthier and Longer Lives will come from the Researchers and not the Breeders ,it is the Researchers, because we are now living in the 21 st Century who have the Knowledge coupled with the Science are able to deal with SM and the MVD Problems that are Afflicting our Beloved Cavaliers , in Particular their MVD Problem , for which the Cavalier Breeders have known about for well over 20 years,and 50% have a Murmur at 5-6 years of age, and this is quoted by Cartiologists ,not Vets, and is no better than it was 18 years ago, ......

What I would like to know and to be given the Proof ,how many of those MVD Figures have come from Puppy Farm Breeders?

Does any-one know, until this is found out ,this Excuse should stop being used over and over again, as the Excuse that Vets are saying that the Cavaliers' MVD Problem is declining, this can only come from Cardiologists .

NO there is still NO ANSWER to the MODE OF INHERITANCE for MVD in Cavaliers, it has not been found yet.

Health should be the Most Cavalier Breeders Priority ,thank goodness there are some who do really care on how they Breed Cavaliers because it is the Cavalier Pet Owning Public who have most of the Cavaliers.

Bet


CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?


Davecav,

I thought you would have sent me your E-Mail Adress so that I could have given you the Information from the Cardiologist who had replied to me about the Cavaliers' MVD Problem.

If I can go back to my Previous Post to contradict you, I never said that Cavalier Breeders were Ignorant,I was commenting on the fact that it was said ,that they want to get things right ,before the Health Problems can be Tackled.

To my way of thinking this could mean ,since it was also stated that what was wanted a Scheme that would Truly Work.

If some Cavalier Breeders won't co-operate with the Researchers and give the Information that they need , how can any Scheme succeed .

That is what I mean by some Cavalier Breeders being ignorant.

The Researchers have given their Breeding Guideline Recommendations, along with the same ones from UK CKCS CLUB, that a Cavalier should not be Bred from before 2.5 years of age, not have SM or MVD ,and the Health Status of the Parents are known at 5 years.

What do we find, that a Cavalier Breeder has Bred from an underage Cavalier.

Bet

RodRussell
15th February 2011, 08:24 PM
... From what I have read on the internet, there is a lot of research being done on MVD or have I got it wrong? So there is still not an answer, which must be very upsetting for all involved, especially those that breed. ...

There is an answer. There has been an answer since 1997 (1998 in the USA). It is the MVD breeding protocol. See http://www.cavalierhealth.org/mvdprotocol.htm

We are waiting to identify the actual genes involved, but until then, the answer is to follow the MVD breeding protocol, because the geneticists have told us that if we faithfully follow that protocol, within as few as three generations, early-onset MVD can be eliminated in the breed.

The fact that early-onset MVD has persisted since 1997 is evidence that the vast majority of cavalier breeders have refused to follow the MVD breeding protocol. Now, you may call them ignorant, or you may call them willful, but either way, they have allowed early-onset MVD to persist and flourish in the CKCS.

Karlin
15th February 2011, 09:39 PM
I'd agree here fully with Rod.

There are breeders who have really focused on heart health and they are well known for having many/the majority -- and not just occasional -- cavaliers reaching good ages, 13+. Anyone needs to be VERY careful about breeders who announce their very occasional dog that has reached a good age. Any puppy buyer wants to see lots of dogs in their recent breeding programme making good ages in good heart health, not dogs from 20-30 years ago. And avpid the breeders who talk about heart health being "a crap shoot" (seemingly the favourite phrase :rolleyes: as an excuse to do whatever they please. Funny how they never seem to view the selection of a mate for cosmetic show qualities as the same kind of indifferent "crap shoot").

It is simple to see that the majority simply do not follow the MVD protocol with any consistency, especially with their males -- whether club or non club at least in the UK. It is easy for anyone to look at the puppy registrations and see that leading breeders including some of those who are -- *cough* -- those who have chosen to speak on behalf of many breeders on breed health, are breeding dogs well below the MVD protocol guidelines. (Perhaps someone might compile a list of such breeders and dogs, that might be posted, as this is public information resulting from the personal choice of breeders to ignore the MVD protocol... I'd be happy to host a listing of some recent choice matings of dogs well below the MVD protocol as surely such breeders are ready and willing to defend to puppy buyers why they made such choices? :confused:).

People seeking a puppy tend to only see the age of the parents for the particular litter they are interested in. It is well worth using the puppy registrations from breed clubs, and the online pedigree databases, to check out the breeder's breeding philosophy in a broader sense. The use of 'reverse pedigree search' in the online databases can be very useful too. I think people would be shocked how many breeders use studs that are under or barely a year in particular. And of course, demand to see the cardiologist (not just vet) heart clearances for parents and grandparents and expect those auscultations to have been done within a year of the mating,ideally much closer than a year.

As with any genetic issue, the occasional early onset dog is going to result even from the most careful breeding programme. The idea is to push out age of onset and reduce severity. It will take decades to even try to eliminate MVD because it is absolutely endemic in the breed now.

anniemac
15th February 2011, 11:02 PM
Karlin,

How do you do this? I have looked at CHIC but can either you or Rod tell me how to look at litters and the age of parents? I know about Ella from the certificate but you raise a good point. How can you find breeders that are in fact waiting at least until 2 1/2 IF both parents are clear at 5 or if they do not have that then breed at 5?

anniemac
16th February 2011, 01:26 AM
karlin, rod etc.

I have found a well respected breeder/leader for mvd and cavaliers may not be that concerned with SM. So this is the hard part because if you have a breeder who has a line of strong hearts, would they be reluctant to scan or not care as much for SM because let's say it reduces the amount to breed if they are graded a D or worse? I am being slightly hypothetical but that is where there needs to be a database b/c someone who has been very involved with mvd and hearts for years may have the strong quality that could be paired with an SM clear cavalier?



Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Bet
16th February 2011, 11:12 AM
I'd agree here fully with Rod.

There are breeders who have really focused on heart health and they are well known for having many/the majority -- and not just occasional -- cavaliers reaching good ages, 13+. Anyone needs to be VERY careful about breeders who announce their very occasional dog that has reached a good age. Any puppy buyer wants to see lots of dogs in their recent breeding programme making good ages in good heart health, not dogs from 20-30 years ago. And avpid the breeders who talk about heart health being "a crap shoot" (seemingly the favourite phrase :rolleyes: as an excuse to do whatever they please. Funny how they never seem to view the selection of a mate for cosmetic show qualities as the same kind of indifferent "crap shoot").

It is simple to see that the majority simply do not follow the MVD protocol with any consistency, especially with their males -- whether club or non club at least in the UK. It is easy for anyone to look at the puppy registrations and see that leading breeders including some of those who are -- *cough* -- those who have chosen to speak on behalf of many breeders on breed health, are breeding dogs well below the MVD protocol guidelines. (Perhaps someone might compile a list of such breeders and dogs, that might be posted, as this is public information resulting from the personal choice of breeders to ignore the MVD protocol... I'd be happy to host a listing of some recent choice matings of dogs well below the MVD protocol as surely such breeders are ready and willing to defend to puppy buyers why they made such choices? :confused:).

People seeking a puppy tend to only see the age of the parents for the particular litter they are interested in. It is well worth using the puppy registrations from breed clubs, and the online pedigree databases, to check out the breeder's breeding philosophy in a broader sense. The use of 'reverse pedigree search' in the online databases can be very useful too. I think people would be shocked how many breeders use studs that are under or barely a year in particular. And of course, demand to see the cardiologist (not just vet) heart clearances for parents and grandparents and expect those auscultations to have been done within a year of the mating,ideally much closer than a year.

As with any genetic issue, the occasional early onset dog is going to result even from the most careful breeding programme. The idea is to push out age of onset and reduce severity. It will take decades to even try to eliminate MVD because it is absolutely endemic in the breed now.


CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?


I have mentioned about the Carriers of the MVD GENE/GENES ,and just been told that because the Cavalier Breed is known to have had Heart Problems since the 1940's ,that it is likely that there are many Cavalier Carriers around to-day with those Gene/Genes.

A Carrier does not express the MVD Problem ,but when mated with another MVD Carrier CAN produce an Off-Spring that has MVD.

This is the big Problem for our Cavaliers to-day,not even Long Lived Cavaliers can be said that they are not MVD Carriers.

As both Karlin and Rod have said ,till the MVD Gene/Genes are found the only chance of the Cavalier Breed Surviving ,is by listening to the Researchers and pushing back the age of Cavaliers being Afflicted with MVD by following their Breeding Guidelines.

For the Cavalier Breed to have a Future though , those MVD Genes have to be found, if they are not found ,then the Breed is finished ,it will not matter what some Cavalier Breeders say and do.

Now to the SM Problem which also could finish our Beloved Cavaliers off.

The Breeding Guidelines have got to be done until the CM/SM Gene/ Genes are found.

All help has to be given to the Researchers into SM and MVD into finding those Gene/Genes ,it's the finding of those Genes that is is going to Salvage the Cavalier Breed from the Mess it is in to-day, .....

But FIRST OF ALL THE MODE OF INHERITANCE FOR SM AND MVD HAS TO BE FOUND.

Bet

Bet
16th February 2011, 12:49 PM
I'd agree here fully with Rod.

There are breeders who have really focused on heart health and they are well known for having many/the majority -- and not just occasional -- cavaliers reaching good ages, 13+. Anyone needs to be VERY careful about breeders who announce their very occasional dog that has reached a good age. Any puppy buyer wants to see lots of dogs in their recent breeding programme making good ages in good heart health, not dogs from 20-30 years ago. And avpid the breeders who talk about heart health being "a crap shoot" (seemingly the favourite phrase :rolleyes: as an excuse to do whatever they please. Funny how they never seem to view the selection of a mate for cosmetic show qualities as the same kind of indifferent "crap shoot").

It is simple to see that the majority simply do not follow the MVD protocol with any consistency, especially with their males -- whether club or non club at least in the UK. It is easy for anyone to look at the puppy registrations and see that leading breeders including some of those who are -- *cough* -- those who have chosen to speak on behalf of many breeders on breed health, are breeding dogs well below the MVD protocol guidelines. (Perhaps someone might compile a list of such breeders and dogs, that might be posted, as this is public information resulting from the personal choice of breeders to ignore the MVD protocol... I'd be happy to host a listing of some recent choice matings of dogs well below the MVD protocol as surely such breeders are ready and willing to defend to puppy buyers why they made such choices? :confused:).

People seeking a puppy tend to only see the age of the parents for the particular litter they are interested in. It is well worth using the puppy registrations from breed clubs, and the online pedigree databases, to check out the breeder's breeding philosophy in a broader sense. The use of 'reverse pedigree search' in the online databases can be very useful too. I think people would be shocked how many breeders use studs that are under or barely a year in particular. And of course, demand to see the cardiologist (not just vet) heart clearances for parents and grandparents and expect those auscultations to have been done within a year of the mating,ideally much closer than a year.

As with any genetic issue, the occasional early onset dog is going to result even from the most careful breeding programme. The idea is to push out age of onset and reduce severity. It will take decades to even try to eliminate MVD because it is absolutely endemic in the breed now.


CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?


Karlin I have just re-read your Post,it would be so useful if you would host a List of Cavalier Breeders who are not following the Breeding Guidelines as Issued by the Researchers and the UK CKCS CLUB when those Breeders are using Under-Age Cavaliers being Bred from.

Bet

HollyDolly
16th February 2011, 11:05 PM
This will be the one and only time I respond to your posts Bet.

I have been well known for my views on the anti scanning brigade and those who do not follow the guidelines laid down by the CKCS Club. But Now your posts are only serving to demoralise and antagonise the good breeders who are so close to giving up or worse still already given up.

We need good breeders to further research and we are in dire need for them to continue. They work so hard to get it right that they deserve our support.

I have had Cavaliers since 1977, have shown with some success and bred a few litters. Most of mine have died of MVD and yes it is heartbreaking when you lose them at a young age, I cradled in my arms a 5 year old while he gasped for breath on his last journey so like you Bet and many others we know what it is like to lose a much loved pet. Would I be without a Cavalier the answer has to be NO. I have two at the moment one 8 year old and one 7 year old, so far so good but who knows what might be tomorrow, next week, next month I cherish every day with them.

I beg you now Bet please stop this war it serves no purpose and I feel you are doing more harm than good.


Nanette

Zumie05
16th February 2011, 11:24 PM
This thread has really continued on...and I have to say I have not been keeping up with it, but I wanted to share another thought.

What about the idea of adding in some other breeds to the Cavalier, and then recreating the breed? It would take a long time yes...but probably help eliminate the health risks much more quickly than looking for the very few perfectly healthy Cavies (No MVD or CM/SM, good eyes, hips, knees) to breed with that remain.

Would the AKC or UKC ever allow such a thing, aiming to help improve the health of the breed? And lets say that they did not approve it. Mixing in breeds with an already established breed with the purpose of creating a new breed is also a lengthy process, to get that new breed established and recognized, then allowed in AKC/UKC competitions as an actual breed. Would it be possible, if the Cavaliers had other breeds mixed in, then selectively bred again to get back to the original Cavalier (or as close to as possible) to have them still be recognized as a CKCS? Or would they need to be declared as a new breed?

Just a thought...been rolling through my head a long while now.

anniemac
17th February 2011, 12:50 AM
Y
CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?


Karlin I have just re-read your Post,it would be so useful if you would host a List of Cavalier Breeders who are not following the Breeding Guidelines as Issued by the Researchers and the UK CKCS CLUB when those Breeders are using Under-Age Cavaliers being Bred from.

Bet

Why not have a list of those that do for reference



Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

RodRussell
17th February 2011, 04:21 AM
... So this is the hard part because if you have a breeder who has a line of strong hearts, would they be reluctant to scan or not care as much for SM because let's say it reduces the amount to breed if they are graded a D or worse? I am being slightly hypothetical but that is where there needs to be a database b/c someone who has been very involved with mvd and hearts for years may have the strong quality that could be paired with an SM clear cavalier?

I apologize for missing this message back on February 15 when it was posted. This is an interesting observation and not as hypothetical as you may think.

I know cavalier breeders who have been very active in the CM/SM area, having their breeding stock MRI-scanned, and being outspoken about SM in the breed, and yet they ignore the MVD breeding protocol. I also know cavalier breeders who try very hard and often to follow the MVD breeding protocol but who downplay SM in their lines and may not even MRI-scan at all.

When I read posts from cavalier breeders who ignore the MVD protocol but shout out about SM, I want to single them out, but I don't, because the bottom line is that when we seek a puppy, we need to ask the same ten questions to every breeder, regardless of whether they claim to be anti-SM but quiet about MVD or vice versa. The same ten questions will get every one of them everytime -- http://www.cavalierhealth.org/questions_for_breeder.htm

Bet
17th February 2011, 11:07 AM
I apologize for missing this message back on February 15 when it was posted. This is an interesting observation and not as hypothetical as you may think.

I know cavalier breeders who have been very active in the CM/SM area, having their breeding stock MRI-scanned, and being outspoken about SM in the breed, and yet they ignore the MVD breeding protocol. I also know cavalier breeders who try very hard and often to follow the MVD breeding protocol but who downplay SM in their lines and may not even MRI-scan at all.

When I read posts from cavalier breeders who ignore the MVD protocol but shout out about SM, I want to single them out, but I don't, because the bottom line is that when we seek a puppy, we need to ask the same ten questions to every breeder, regardless of whether they claim to be anti-SM but quiet about MVD or vice versa. The same ten questions will get every one of them everytime -- http://www.cavalierhealth.org/questions_for_breeder.htm


CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?


There is an Interesting Article in this week's DOG WORLD from the President of the BRITISH VETERINARY ASSOCIATION, Harvey Locke.

It is about the Introduction of a Screening Scheme for SM for Cavaliers .

He mentions that at the moment what is under discussion are concerns about the Reporting of the Results that have been raised publicly by some Cavalier Breeders, and other Cavalier Breeders who are very keen to see the MRI Scan Results to be made Public.

That at the moment all ,he went onto say that under existing Canine Health Schemes,all Results are Publicly Available.

He has also said that it was unfortunate that following the Recent Meeting ,Proposals were drawn up and circulated by the Kennel Club "outside the Context of the Meeting"

That these are Proposals and no decision has yet been taken about them.

That SM is a devasating Disease and both the BVA and KC are keen to a Solution that will have significant impact on it.

The article went onto say ,this was not from Harvey Locke, that some Cavalier Breeders are not keen to have the the Results of the Scans Recorded on their Dogs' Registration Documents and want them only to Show the Date of the Scan.

Also that the Result of Other Breeds' BVA/KC HEALTH SCHEMES are made available on the Kennel Club's Health Test Finderand the Breed Record Supplement.

Finally Dr S. Blott ,involved with the Research into SM, is quoted as saying ,that the incidence rate of SM in Veterinary Papers she has looked at suggest ,50% and upwards ,but cases can be slight or Asymptomatic.

Dr Blott concluded, it is difficult for us Scientists sometimes to get our Message across ,that SM is a Complex Disease ,that is Vital that they have the BVA Scheme in place in order to have Data available that will enable them to better understand this Disease.

That it is only by doing this that she says,will we be able to find a Solution for Breeders.


Finally could I personally mention and ask this Question of those Few Vociferious Cavalier Breeders ,what would they do to Save our Beloved Cavaliers from both SM and MVD.

Do they agree with the Breeding Guideline Recommendations given by the Researchers into SM and MVD or do they any other Suggestions, it is time they said what they want done , to give the Cavalier Breed a Future.?

Finally ,Finally, as some of will know I suffer from Epilepsy ,but I am also Dyxlectic, as a Result of this I have likely made some Spelling Mistakes in my Posts .

Hope you will have made an Allowance for my Spelling Mistakes, hopefully there will not have been too many, I have tried my best not to have had many Spelling Errors.

Bet

Bet
17th February 2011, 12:29 PM
CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?


There is an Interesting Article in this week's DOG WORLD from the President of the BRITISH VETERINARY ASSOCIATION, Harvey Locke.

It is about the Introduction of a Screening Scheme for SM for Cavaliers .

He mentions that at the moment what is under discussion are concerns about the Reporting of the Results that have been raised publicly by some Cavalier Breeders, and other Cavalier Breeders who are very keen to see the MRI Scan Results to be made Public.

That at the moment all ,he went onto say that under existing Canine Health Schemes,all Results are Publicly Available.

He has also said that it was unfortunate that following the Recent Meeting ,Proposals were drawn up and circulated by the Kennel Club "outside the Context of the Meeting"

That these are Proposals and no decision has yet been taken about them.

That SM is a devasating Disease and both the BVA and KC are keen to a Solution that will have significant impact on it.

The article went onto say ,this was not from Harvey Locke, that some Cavalier Breeders are not keen to have the the Results of the Scans Recorded on their Dogs' Registration Documents and want them only to Show the Date of the Scan.

Also that the Result of Other Breeds' BVA/KC HEALTH SCHEMES are made available on the Kennel Club's Health Test Finderand the Breed Record Supplement.

Finally Dr S. Blott ,involved with the Research into SM, is quoted as saying ,that the incidence rate of SM in Veterinary Papers she has looked at suggest ,50% and upwards ,but cases can be slight or Asymptomatic.

Dr Blott concluded, it is difficult for us Scientists sometimes to get our Message across ,that SM is a Complex Disease ,that is Vital that they have the BVA Scheme in place in order to have Data available that will enable them to better understand this Disease.

That it is only by doing this that she says,will we be able to find a Solution for Breeders.


Finally could I personally mention and ask this Question of those Few Vociferious Cavalier Breeders ,what would they do to Save our Beloved Cavaliers from both SM and MVD.

Do they agree with the Breeding Guideline Recommendations given by the Researchers into SM and MVD or do they any other Suggestions, it is time they said what they want done , to give the Cavalier Breed a Future.?

Finally ,Finally, as some of will know I suffer from Epilepsy ,but I am also Dyxlectic, as a Result of this I have likely made some Spelling Mistakes in my Posts .

Hope you will have made an Allowance for my Spelling Mistakes, hopefully there will not have been too many, I have tried my best not to have had many Spelling Errors.

Bet


CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

This has just appeared as a Comment on the Article in DOG WORLD about the Proposals for the BVA/KC MRI SCANNING Scheme, which has been Postedby Maggie Ford, .

THIS IS YOUR PERSONAL OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE YOUR SAY IF YOU WANT FULL PUBLICATION OF RESULTS

E-MAIL
diana,brooks-ward@thekennelclub.org.uk

And

SandraW@bva.co.uk

Bet

Bet
17th February 2011, 12:38 PM
CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

This has just appeared as a Comment on the Article in DOG WORLD about the Proposals for the BVA/KC MRI SCANNING Scheme, which has been Postedby Maggie Ford, .

THIS IS YOUR PERSONAL OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE YOUR SAY IF YOU WANT FULL PUBLICATION OF RESULTS

E-MAIL
diana,brooks-ward@thekennelclub.org.uk

And

SandraW@bva.co.uk

Bet


CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

SORRY ABOUT THIS I MADE A MISTAKE WITH DIANA BROOKS-WARD E-MAIL ADRESS

IT IS diana.brooks-ward@thekennelclub.org.uk

Bet

Brian M
17th February 2011, 01:12 PM
HI Bet

Can you post a link to the Dog World article please.

Bet
17th February 2011, 01:46 PM
HI Bet

Can you post a link to the Dog World article please.


CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

Brian ,

Here's the Link

www.dogworld.co.uk/news/07-BVA

Bet

wotton12000
17th February 2011, 03:41 PM
Thanks for posting the llink to the Dog World Article, Bet.

I think it's important that people makes their views known to the BVA and Kennel Club.

The contact details are: diana.brooks-ward@thekennelclub.org.uk

And for the BVA Sandra Webber (BVA Health Schemes) SandraW@bva.co.uk I suggest adding FAO Harvey Locke (President)

I suggest also contacting the Dog Advisory Council Heather Peck (Secretary)
heather.peck@dogadvisorycouncil.org.uk FAO Professor Sheila Crispin

I think the views of pet owners should be made known. It is a disservice to them if the results of the scheme are not published. Ideally the results should be available on the KC's Health Results Finder with an explanation of the grading scheme. This would enable puppy buyers to research the health status of the parents of a litter of puppies before going to see them.

Even more important is the issue of dogs suffering the pain of this disease? An open and published official scheme which everybody supports would be the quickest way to breed away from CMSM. The quickest way to reduce suffering.

Carol F

Margaret C
17th February 2011, 06:01 PM
Thanks for posting the llink to the Dog World Article, Bet.

I think it's important that people makes their views known to the BVA and Kennel Club.

The contact details are: diana.brooks-ward@thekennelclub.org.uk

And for the BVA Sandra Webber (BVA Health Schemes) SandraW@bva.co.uk I suggest adding FAO Harvey Locke (President)

I suggest also contacting the Dog Advisory Council Heather Peck (Secretary)
heather.peck@dogadvisorycouncil.org.uk FAO Professor Sheila Crispin

I think the views of pet owners should be made known. It is a disservice to them if the results of the scheme are not published. Ideally the results should be available on the KC's Health Results Finder with an explanation of the grading scheme. This would enable puppy buyers to research the health status of the parents of a litter of puppies before going to see them.

Even more important is the issue of dogs suffering the pain of this disease? An open and published official scheme which everybody supports would be the quickest way to breed away from CMSM. The quickest way to reduce suffering.

Carol F

This is a very important step in trying to save future generations of cavaliers..........

If SM cavaliers are scanned, and results published, then breeders can plan their litters with a full knowledge of what is behind the parent dogs.

Puppy buyers can check the scan results of the cavaliers that produced their new pet.

Everyone who has a SM cavalier has a view that should be heard.

Everyone that has tried to find a puppy from a breeder that does all the health testing would have a valuable experience to share. Everyone that hopes to get a new puppy soon should share their concerns about getting a dog which develops SM

Please find time to send an email.

Tania
17th February 2011, 07:03 PM
Thank you for pointing out we can all do something that will hopefully make a difference.

I will be sending an e mail this evening. :thmbsup:

Bet
17th February 2011, 07:49 PM
Thank you for pointing out we can all do something that will hopefully make a difference.

I will be sending an e mail this evening. :thmbsup:



CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?


I know that I am not supposed to mention what is said on that other Forum,but I feel this is so important and Ties in with what Margaret and Carol have just Posted.

Maggie Ford who was the Health Rep for the CKCS CLUB has Resigned because she was BANNED FROM ATTENDING THE MEETING ON 3rd FEB.

This is what she has Posted

That People who both Breed and buy Cavaliers are are ALSO ABLE TO MAKE COMMENTS TO THE BVA AND THE KC about the MRI Scanning Scheme.

This After- noon I E-Mailed both the Two Ladies whose E-Mail addresses are on this List ,I explained that I was not a Cavalier Breeder ,but had been involved with our Cavalier Breed's MVD Heart Problem for over 20 years ,but felt that not just for the Benefit of the Cavalier Breeders and the SM Researchers ,but for the Confidence of Prospective Buyers of Cavaliers ,that they have to be given the the information about the MRI Scanning Results of the Cavalier they wish to buy with-out having to be given it from the Cavalier Breeder.

I further said about the Dire Straits our Cavaliers are in because of SM and MVD ,it is not even known if the Cavalier Breed will survive , but at least by MRI Scanning for the EBV Scheme ,our Cavaliers will be given the Chance of Healthier ,Longer Lives ,which is not Apparent at the moment.

I have replies from both to my E-Mail and the contents of my E-Mail will be added to the other Comments that are Received.

So please do as Margaret and Carol have requested ,if you have an Interest in this MRI Scheme ,contact the E-Mail Adresses that have been given.

This is probably the Last Chance our Cherished Cavalier Breed will have of having a Future.

Bet

anniemac
17th February 2011, 08:13 PM
I have not looked at the other forum but I have been thinking of what rod said that some breeders are focused on hearts and others on sm. I have been trying to learn but it is so complex. My fear is and maybe I need to read what is proposed, but for puppy buyers it really needs to be clear that there are several genetic health issues. I am saying this as a person who was solely focused on SM and not mvd but I am having her checked since its her 5th birthday.

I could be solely focused on breeders who have A results and breed to an A. I guess what I'm trying to say is the protocol still allows for asymptomatic sm cavaliers to be breed to an A. I am trying to understand how it will be used because there may be a very valid reason that D cavalier is breed meaning they have a long line of clear hearts. If the public misunderstands it and someone is looked at as terrible for breeding an asymptomatic cavalier even with following a protocol, it could be misleading.

I am not in the UK so I really don't understand it but I do understand that buyers need to ask a breeder several questions and see those results. is it not public for other breeders to use it as a tool? How would potential pet buyers use it? Does it have the mvd results or would it explain why a D cavalier was used? It is very complex and it is a good thing but one I would hope maybe tania could put on her site and I need to read margarets site.

So much stuff you need a masters in!

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Margaret C
17th February 2011, 09:55 PM
I have just written a blog, so that email addresses don't disappear too quickly.

Put a draft letter as well.

Bet
20th February 2011, 11:39 AM
I have just written a blog, so that email addresses don't disappear too quickly.

Put a draft letter as well.


CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?


I just don't know the answer to this Question, and hope the Antics of the few Vociferious Cavalier Breeders who are now left and are using their Latest Tactic ,that EVERY-BODY IS AGAINST US, won't be harming the Cavalier Breed!

What fact is this based on?

Here are the Facts about the Health Problems in our Cavaliers.

The MVD Figures given from the Cardiologists ,are that 50% of Cavaliers have a Heart Murmur at 5-6 years of age, and this Figure is no better than it was 18 years ago.

CM is Chacterized by Cavaliers Brains being too Big and and Skulls too Small.

85 Whelps who have recently been Researched all had CM.

Do those Few Cavalier Breeders get their Motivation and Type of Attitude from Every- Body's" Agin Us " as we say in Scotland not realize the Damage they are doing to our Beloved Cavaliers?

Why don't they put their Energies to trying to save Cavaliers from Extinction ,instead of Picking Fights with any-one who comes into their Radar ,as the saying goes.

Bet

Spangly
20th February 2011, 01:25 PM
Margaret, I have emailed to all addresses in your blog.

Thank you for draft letter, it`s sometimes hard to put into some logical sense all the points you want, so your draft was a great help.

Everyone, please send your views too, this is so important to the future of our breed.

Thank you.cavtiny

Bet
22nd February 2011, 12:47 PM
Margaret, I have emailed to all addresses in your blog.

Thank you for draft letter, it`s sometimes hard to put into some logical sense all the points you want, so your draft was a great help.

Everyone, please send your views too, this is so important to the future of our breed.

Thank you.cavtiny

CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

I have really have my doubts now that a couple of Newly Appointed Health Representatives for the UK CKCS CLUB have said on the Internet, one has Said she does not believe in the 50 % Figures of Cavaliers having Heart Murmurs at 5-6 years that have been been given by the Researchers into MVD,the other ,that the Results of Scans are for her Information only. !!!!

Bet

sins
22nd February 2011, 01:54 PM
I'm sure they'll be delighted to have started their new appointments in such a hail of encouragement and praise:rolleyes:.
In order to take on that responsibility,you'd want the patience of Job and the hide of a rhinoceros...
One has ten of her dogs scanned according to the cavalier Club website,the other has eighteen.They test,they show,they breed and judge !!
I believe it's customary Bet, to thank the previous health rep for her hard work and service to the Breed and to wish the new appointees the very best with their new roles.
Sins

Bet
22nd February 2011, 02:47 PM
I'm sure they'll be delighted to have started their new appointments in such a hail of encouragement and praise:rolleyes:.
In order to take on that responsibility,you'd want the patience of Job and the hide of a rhinoceros...
One has ten of her dogs scanned according to the cavalier Club website,the other has eighteen.They test,they show,they breed and judge !!
I believe it's customary Bet, to thank the previous health rep for her hard work and service to the Breed and to wish the new appointees the very best with their new roles.
Sins

CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

When those Two have Publicly said on a Cavalier Forum that One does not believe in the MVD Figures for Cavaliers given by the Cardiologists and the Other that the Scan Results are for her information only ,then how can they be interested in truly helping the Cavalier Breed with the MVD and SM Problems Afflicting it.

Forgive me Sins, but was Maggie Ford not allowed to attend the Recent Meeting about the MRI Scanning Scheme.

Bet

sins
22nd February 2011, 03:08 PM
Forgive me Sins, but was Maggie Ford not allowed to attend the Recent Meeting about the MRI Scanning Scheme.



Indeed Bet,which makes it even more remarkable that anyone would want to take on such a poison chalice.
But seriously Bet,within the cavalier world...
Is there anyone,anywhere who can do anything right in your book?

Sins

Bet
22nd February 2011, 06:57 PM
Indeed Bet,which makes it even more remarkable that anyone would want to take on such a poison chalice.
But seriously Bet,within the cavalier world...
Is there anyone,anywhere who can do anything right in your book?

Sins

CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

Yes Sins,

Those Cavalier Breeders who I respect so very much who are Health Testing their Cavalier Breeding Stock ,following the Breeding Guidelines not to be Breeding from a Cavalier before 2.5 years of age , know the Health Status of their Parents at 5.

Also be co-operating with the Researchers into SM and MVD and not like some Cavalier Breeders putting every Obstacle in the way they can think of Hindering the MRI Scanning Scheme from going ahead that will give the Cavalier Breed hopefully a Future.

Bet

Kate H
22nd February 2011, 06:58 PM
Please Bet, read your own post no. 152 on this thread, where Maggie Ford is encouraging us to write to the KC and BVA with our views on public disclosure of scan results. The obvious inference is that she was not allowed to go to the meeting because she didn't support the Cavalier Club's views - and that she resigned as Health Rep for the same reason. So what are you criticising her for??

And Annette Jones, the new Health Rep, organised the Cavalier Health meeting at the BVA last November, so although she may have hang-ups I don't know about (as we all have!), she should have done at least one thing right in your estimation.

Kate, Oliver and Aled

Bet
22nd February 2011, 07:50 PM
Please Bet, read your own post no. 152 on this thread, where Maggie Ford is encouraging us to write to the KC and BVA with our views on public disclosure of scan results. The obvious inference is that she was not allowed to go to the meeting because she didn't support the Cavalier Club's views - and that she resigned as Health Rep for the same reason. So what are you criticising her for??

And Annette Jones, the new Health Rep, organised the Cavalier Health meeting at the BVA last November, so although she may have hang-ups I don't know about (as we all have!), she should have done at least one thing right in your estimation.

Kate, Oliver and Aled

CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED ?

I am in no way Criticising Maggie, I admire her very much for what she has done, and as Jemima Harrison said in her recent Blog, it is terrible what happened to her because she did not support the CKCS CLUB'S Views about the MRI Scanning Scheme.

Kate ,when some Cavalier folk are in a Position to set an Example ,but won't believe the MVD Figures given by Cardiologists that 50% Cavaliers have a Heart Murmur at 5-6 years, and also say Publicly on a Cavalier Forum that they will not divulge the MRI Scan Results because they are for their information only,then some-thing is wrong some-where.

Bet

Margaret C
22nd February 2011, 11:20 PM
Maggie Ford has been a hard working and respected health representative. She was banned from going to a meeting to discuss a health scheme she had worked on for over two years.

Sins is right. Why would anyone with a true desire to promote health take the place Maggie has been forced to leave, especially when they have to deal with the same committee that treated her so disgracefully?

Talking about nobody in particular, but a lot of sudden new health converts in general, I cannot help but regard with a certain cynicism many of the new health council appointments that have been announced over the last few months. So many died-in-the-wool poachers turned gamekeepers.

In the light of my knowledge of what is still being said and done on the quiet, perhaps 'Gatekeeper' is a better term.

Suddenly names of dogs have been put on voluntary MRI lists, whole generations of Cavalier hearts are said to have been tested. If this is a genuine change of heart from so many breeders who have denied up until very recently that MVD and SM are problems in the breed, then the publication of BVA/KC scheme results will go through without any problem.

However, many many long years of hearing and reading what has been said by these sudden converts to health leaves me with grave doubts that their actions will match up to their public words.

I would love to be proved wrong.

Karlin
22nd February 2011, 11:43 PM
:xctly:

Bet
23rd February 2011, 10:40 AM
Maggie Ford has been a hard working and respected health representative. She was banned from going to a meeting to discuss a health scheme she had worked on for over two years.

Sins is right. Why would anyone with a true desire to promote health take the place Maggie has been forced to leave, especially when they have to deal with the same committee that treated her so disgracefully?

Talking about nobody in particular, but a lot of sudden new health converts in general, I cannot help but regard with a certain cynicism many of the new health council appointments that have been announced over the last few months. So many died-in-the-wool poachers turned gamekeepers.

In the light of my knowledge of what is still being said and done on the quiet, perhaps 'Gatekeeper' is a better term.

Suddenly names of dogs have been put on voluntary MRI lists, whole generations of Cavalier hearts are said to have been tested. If this is a genuine change of heart from so many breeders who have denied up until very recently that MVD and SM are problems in the breed, then the publication of BVA/KC scheme results will go through without any problem.

However, many many long years of hearing and reading what has been said by these sudden converts to health leaves me with grave doubts that their actions will match up to their public words.

I would love to be proved wrong.


CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?


Thank you Margaret for your Post, and Karlin for her Comment.

This sums exactly how I feel about One of the Newly Appointed Health Representatives.

Because I dared to mention the Health Problems in our Cavalier Breed , it was Publicly said on a Cavalier Forum on the Internet that she Questioned My State of Mind.

Needless to say I Complained to the UK CKCS Committee about this Statement ,quoting the CKCS Code of Ethics

PART A

GENERAL, PARAGRAPH 3,which states

THAT MEMBERS SHOULD NOT USE ANY METHOD OF COMMUNICATION WHAT-SO-EVER IN ANY WAY THAT COULD BE CONSIDERED

DEFAMATORY

INSULTING

DETRIMENTAL TO ANOTHER MEMBER


My Complaint was Dismissed !


This was the same COMMITTEE that has so Disgracefully Treated Maggie Ford.

I just cannot understand why some-body who has those Views about any-one being concerned about the SM and MVD Problems in our Cavaliers, can possibly be a Health Represenative for the Cavalier Club.

I am no longer a Member of the CKCS CLUB.

I guess you will understand why ,and that I have my Reservations about the Newly Appointed Health Representatives for the CKCS CLUB.

There is a Saying about Leopards Changing their Spots.

Time Will Tell.

Bet

Bet
24th February 2011, 10:40 AM
CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?


Thank you Margaret for your Post, and Karlin for her Comment.

This sums exactly how I feel about One of the Newly Appointed Health Representatives.

Because I dared to mention the Health Problems in our Cavalier Breed , it was Publicly said on a Cavalier Forum on the Internet that she Questioned My State of Mind.

Needless to say I Complained to the UK CKCS Committee about this Statement ,quoting the CKCS Code of Ethics

PART A

GENERAL, PARAGRAPH 3,which states

THAT MEMBERS SHOULD NOT USE ANY METHOD OF COMMUNICATION WHAT-SO-EVER IN ANY WAY THAT COULD BE CONSIDERED

DEFAMATORY

INSULTING

DETRIMENTAL TO ANOTHER MEMBER


My Complaint was Dismissed !


This was the same COMMITTEE that has so Disgracefully Treated Maggie Ford.

I just cannot understand why some-body who has those Views about any-one being concerned about the SM and MVD Problems in our Cavaliers, can possibly be a Health Represenative for the Cavalier Club.

I am no longer a Member of the CKCS CLUB.

I guess you will understand why ,and that I have my Reservations about the Newly Appointed Health Representatives for the CKCS CLUB.

There is a Saying about Leopards Changing their Spots.

Time Will Tell.

Bet


CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?


It is worrying to read as I have mentioned the Two Newly Health Representatives for the UK CKCS CLUB,one does not believe the MVD figure that MVD Researchers have given of 50% of Cavaliers at 5-6 have a Heart Murmur ,and the other won't divulge the Results of her MRI Scans for her Cavaliers, that those Results are for her information only, that they have said ,they are both Strong Minded and Opinionated ,but they will try to be Unbiased and not let Our Personal Opinions conflict with the CKCS CLUB MEMBERSHIP.

So by their own admission , the Opinions I have Posted are True.

How can any Health Representative for our Cavalier Breed have those Personal Opinions and do much to help with their SM and MVD Problems.

Bet

Davecav
24th February 2011, 12:49 PM
Bet

I have to disagree, a lot of people can have strong opinions, but can also be fair minded. In fact, to get things done, you need people with strength and commitment.
The new health reps have every right to question things, especially in their new roles. They are both respected breeders who do their best to produce healthy stock, their knoweldge and experience is needed.

You appear to have very strong opinions; by your definition of the people above, does this mean you are also not willing to listen to others?:)

Bet
24th February 2011, 01:48 PM
Bet

I have to disagree, a lot of people can have strong opinions, but can also be fair minded. In fact, to get things done, you need people with strength and commitment.
The new health reps have every right to question things, especially in their new roles. They are both respected breeders who do their best to produce healthy stock, their knoweldge and experience is needed.

You appear to have very strong opinions; by your definition of the people above, does this mean you are also not willing to listen to others?:)

CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED ?

Davecav

I am sorry you have not understood the Point I was making ,that was, to have my Mental State called into Question because I was daring to mention the Serious SM and MVD Problems in our Cavalier Breed by One of the Two Newly Appointed Health CKCS Representatives on a Cavalier Public Forum on the Internet, would by some Folks Views be considered Libellous.

How can she have an honest view about those Cavaliers Health problems ,when she has Publicly said this distressing Statement about me.

Bet

Bet
26th February 2011, 07:31 PM
CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED ?

Davecav

I am sorry you have not understood the Point I was making ,that was, to have my Mental State called into Question because I was daring to mention the Serious SM and MVD Problems in our Cavalier Breed by One of the Two Newly Appointed Health CKCS Representatives on a Cavalier Public Forum on the Internet, would by some Folks Views be considered Libellous.

How can she have an honest view about those Cavaliers Health problems ,when she has Publicly said this distressing Statement about me.

Bet


CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

How can it be when certain Vociferous Cavalier Breeders keep blaming us who Love the Cavalier Breed for causing the Turmoil in in the Breed just now.

Do they not or want to understand that it is by some of their Breeding Practices that things have got to this Level .

It is because so many of us have been Heart -Broken watching our Cavaliers suffer,and the loss of our Cherished Cavaliers at such early ages,that we have now said enough is enough, we who love the Cavalier Breed have got to be being listened to.

OK ,there are some Cavalier Breeders who are doing their best to give the Cavaliers a Future, but then what do we find, that the Chair-Man of the Cavalier Health Liason Committee a Cavalier Breeder, was for TWO Years , yes TWO Years ,protesting to every Layer of the BBC'S COMPLAINTS and APPEALS Process until it reached the Corporation's Governing Body, only to see it being Overturned once more.

This was because he did not like what Dr C .Rusbridge ,Neurologist , and Jemima Harrison had said about the Cavaliers' Health Problems on the Pedigree Dogs Exposed TV Program.

Then we have the Two Health Representatives ,one has Publicly said that she will not divulge the Results of her MRI Scanned Cavaliers ,that they are for only her to know about, and the Other does not believe the figures of 50% of Cavaliers having Heart Murmurs at 5-6 years of age, the reason being ,that she has not seen this Figure in her Cavaliers.

So we have to take one Breeder's Evidence about her own Cavaliers ,not what the MVD Researchers are saying.

Because we care so much about our Beloved Cavaliers and say that there are Two Horrendous Health Problems afflicting Cavaliers ,we are called Animal Rights Activists.

We should be known as the TRUE LOVERS OF CAVALIERS.

Bet

anniemac
26th February 2011, 07:40 PM
I have had more support from breeders than anyone else about ella. So I support breeders who ACTUALLY are why we know so much about CM/SM because of their participation and support. I think its unfair to say breeders as a whole. Sure there are breeders that do not follow health tests but really the focus should be on education which actually could contribute positively.

Personally, I find it equally upsetting that people who know about health tests ignore asking questions and health because they want one then.



Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

anniemac
26th February 2011, 07:43 PM
Well rod and a couple owners but point is what is the point of me saying anything.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Bet
27th February 2011, 11:48 AM
I have had more support from breeders than anyone else about ella. So I support breeders who ACTUALLY are why we know so much about CM/SM because of their participation and support. I think its unfair to say breeders as a whole. Sure there are breeders that do not follow health tests but really the focus should be on education which actually could contribute positively.

Personally, I find it equally upsetting that people who know about health tests ignore asking questions and health because they want one then.



Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk


CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVES?


ANNIEMAC,

I just don't know about how the Cavalier Public was made aware about SM in America, but here in Britain it was due to KARLIN,CAROL , and MARGARET who was Brave enough to appears on the PEDIGREE DOGS EXPOSED TV PROGRAM , not to many Cavalier Breeders .

After the showing of the PDE TV FILM ,all hell was let loose, the Folk I have mentioned are still being Sneered at and being Belittled by a few Poisonous ,Narrow -Minded ,Vicious Cavalier Breeders, as Jemima Harrison has mentioned in her Blog, how did such a Lovely Breed as Cavaliers ever get into their Hands.

It does not matter what is said about the SM and MVD Problems in our Cavalier Breed they will Twist and Turn and give all the Excuses they can think of ,that they are doing what- ever for Cavaliers.

WHAT ARE THEY DOING FOR THE CAVALIER BREED?????

I am NOT talking about the Cavalier Breeders who are doing their Best, why won't the UK CKCS CLUB Publish a List of Cavalier Breeders who are Health Testing their Cavalier Breeding ,who are following the Breeding Guidelines as set by the CKCS CLUB and the RESEARCHERS, not to Breed from a Cavalier before 2.5 years of age and have no Heart or SM Problem and to know the Health Status of the Parents at 5.

I was disappointed to read in the Cavalier Notes this week in DOG WORLD, that the Writer Will Not Be Told By Any-One at what age her Cavaliers should be being used for Breeding.

I challenged her Statement ,some-body in Cavaliers ,probably a Cavalier Breeder had complained to DW about what I had said, and my remark was Removed.!

Should we who have been and are so Heart- Broken at what our Beloved Cavaliers have and are Suffering because SM and MVD, start a Campaign to make the CKCS CLUB have a List of Cavalier Breeders who are Members of the CKCS CLUB ,who are Health Testing and following the Breeding Guidelines for their Cavaliers.

With Crufts coming up shortly ,surely that would be a good place for the Cavalier Club to give Publicity to this ,that they will give a List of Cavalier Club Breeders who are Health Testing and following the Breeding Guidelines of their Cavalier Breeding Stock.

Maybe any-one going to Crufts can ask about this ,and if the Answer is ,it cannot be done.

ASK THE QUESTION .WHY NOT.

Bet

Bet
9th March 2011, 10:59 AM
CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVES?


ANNIEMAC,

I just don't know about how the Cavalier Public was made aware about SM in America, but here in Britain it was due to KARLIN,CAROL , and MARGARET who was Brave enough to appears on the PEDIGREE DOGS EXPOSED TV PROGRAM , not to many Cavalier Breeders .

After the showing of the PDE TV FILM ,all hell was let loose, the Folk I have mentioned are still being Sneered at and being Belittled by a few Poisonous ,Narrow -Minded ,Vicious Cavalier Breeders, as Jemima Harrison has mentioned in her Blog, how did such a Lovely Breed as Cavaliers ever get into their Hands.

It does not matter what is said about the SM and MVD Problems in our Cavalier Breed they will Twist and Turn and give all the Excuses they can think of ,that they are doing what- ever for Cavaliers.

WHAT ARE THEY DOING FOR THE CAVALIER BREED?????

I am NOT talking about the Cavalier Breeders who are doing their Best, why won't the UK CKCS CLUB Publish a List of Cavalier Breeders who are Health Testing their Cavalier Breeding ,who are following the Breeding Guidelines as set by the CKCS CLUB and the RESEARCHERS, not to Breed from a Cavalier before 2.5 years of age and have no Heart or SM Problem and to know the Health Status of the Parents at 5.

I was disappointed to read in the Cavalier Notes this week in DOG WORLD, that the Writer Will Not Be Told By Any-One at what age her Cavaliers should be being used for Breeding.

I challenged her Statement ,some-body in Cavaliers ,probably a Cavalier Breeder had complained to DW about what I had said, and my remark was Removed.!

Should we who have been and are so Heart- Broken at what our Beloved Cavaliers have and are Suffering because SM and MVD, start a Campaign to make the CKCS CLUB have a List of Cavalier Breeders who are Members of the CKCS CLUB ,who are Health Testing and following the Breeding Guidelines for their Cavaliers.

With Crufts coming up shortly ,surely that would be a good place for the Cavalier Club to give Publicity to this ,that they will give a List of Cavalier Club Breeders who are Health Testing and following the Breeding Guidelines of their Cavalier Breeding Stock.

Maybe any-one going to Crufts can ask about this ,and if the Answer is ,it cannot be done.

ASK THE QUESTION .WHY NOT.

Bet



CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?


Let's have a think about this with the Information we have been given from the Researchers into the SM and MVD Problems in our Cavaliers.

It has been stated that around 90% of Cavaliers have CM.

This is Characterized by the Brains being too Big and the Skulls too Small.

I don't know the answer to this ,but is it possible that this maybe could be involved with Syrinxes Forming because the CSF is not getting around the Brain properly.

We know that 85 Whelps being Researched for the Foetal Tissue Research ,all had CM.

The 26 Older Cavaliers MRI Scanned through Rupert's Fund 24 had CM ,2 had Mild CM.

Now onto MVD ,it has been also stated by the MVD Researchers that 50% of Cavaliers have a Heart Murmur at 5-6 Years of Age, although this is Disputed by some Cavalier Breeders ,but they don't seem to have the Evidence to give their Proof as to what Figures they are quoting, perhaps some-body going to Crufts can ask this Question at the CKCS Health Stall.

Now we come to the $64,000 Question ,if some Vociferious Cavalier Breeders are not Believing how serious the SM and MVD Problem is in our Cavalier Breed ,and others which has been Shown in the Breed Record Supplements for Cavaliers issued by the Kennel Club ,are not following the Breeding Guidelines for Cavaliers which have been issued by Both the Researchers and the UK CKCS CLUB, that Cavaliers should not be Bred from before 2.5 years of Age ,are Healthy, and the Health Status of their Parents is known at 5.

SO,around 90% have CM, what is even more Frightening is the finding that all those 85 Whelps had CM, are there now many Carriers of the CM leading onto SM Genes in our Cavalier Breed.

It has been said by the MVD Research Cardiologists that there are now Many MVD Carriers around with the MVD Genes.

THEN HOW CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

The Researchers have said over and over again, the only Hope of Salvaging the Cavalier Breed ,is to try and delay the Early ON-SET of MVD and SM by following the Breeding Guidelines.

I hope that some of these Facts will be being put to CKCS HEALTH STALL AT CRUFTS .

Bet

Bet
9th March 2011, 07:08 PM
CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?


Let's have a think about this with the Information we have been given from the Researchers into the SM and MVD Problems in our Cavaliers.

It has been stated that around 90% of Cavaliers have CM.

This is Characterized by the Brains being too Big and the Skulls too Small.

I don't know the answer to this ,but is it possible that this maybe could be involved with Syrinxes Forming because the CSF is not getting around the Brain properly.

We know that 85 Whelps being Researched for the Foetal Tissue Research ,all had CM.

The 26 Older Cavaliers MRI Scanned through Rupert's Fund 24 had CM ,2 had Mild CM.

Now onto MVD ,it has been also stated by the MVD Researchers that 50% of Cavaliers have a Heart Murmur at 5-6 Years of Age, although this is Disputed by some Cavalier Breeders ,but they don't seem to have the Evidence to give their Proof as to what Figures they are quoting, perhaps some-body going to Crufts can ask this Question at the CKCS Health Stall.

Now we come to the $64,000 Question ,if some Vociferious Cavalier Breeders are not Believing how serious the SM and MVD Problem is in our Cavalier Breed ,and others which has been Shown in the Breed Record Supplements for Cavaliers issued by the Kennel Club ,are not following the Breeding Guidelines for Cavaliers which have been issued by Both the Researchers and the UK CKCS CLUB, that Cavaliers should not be Bred from before 2.5 years of Age ,are Healthy, and the Health Status of their Parents is known at 5.

SO,around 90% have CM, what is even more Frightening is the finding that all those 85 Whelps had CM, are there now many Carriers of the CM leading onto SM Genes in our Cavalier Breed.

It has been said by the MVD Research Cardiologists that there are now Many MVD Carriers around with the MVD Genes.

THEN HOW CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

The Researchers have said over and over again, the only Hope of Salvaging the Cavalier Breed ,is to try and delay the Early ON-SET of MVD and SM by following the Breeding Guidelines.

I hope that some of these Facts will be being put to CKCS HEALTH STALL AT CRUFTS .

Bet


CAN THE CAVALIER BE SAVED?


Just received my April Edition of Dogs Today magazine, and was pleased to see on the Letter page, under the Heading along -side a Photo of a Cavalier, BUYER BEWARE.

I mentioned about the Two Serious Health Problems Afflicting our Cavaliers, SM and MVD ,and the Breeding Recommendations given from the Researchers to Cavalier Breeders ,which are not to Breed from a Cavalier before 2.5 years of age and the Cavalier should have no Health problems.,also for the Cavalier Breeder to know the Health Status of the Cavaliers Parents at 5 years of age,that the buyer of a Cavalier should ask and be shown a Health Certificate from the Breeder that this is being done ,if not ,then don't buy a Cavalier from that Cavalier Breeder.

Bet

Bet
11th March 2011, 12:00 PM
CAN THE CAVALIER BE SAVED?


Just received my April Edition of Dogs Today magazine, and was pleased to see on the Letter page, under the Heading along -side a Photo of a Cavalier, BUYER BEWARE.

I mentioned about the Two Serious Health Problems Afflicting our Cavaliers, SM and MVD ,and the Breeding Recommendations given from the Researchers to Cavalier Breeders ,which are not to Breed from a Cavalier before 2.5 years of age and the Cavalier should have no Health problems.,also for the Cavalier Breeder to know the Health Status of the Cavaliers Parents at 5 years of age,that the buyer of a Cavalier should ask and be shown a Health Certificate from the Breeder that this is being done ,if not ,then don't buy a Cavalier from that Cavalier Breeder.

Bet


CAN THE CAVALIER BE SAVED?

I have just noticed this New WEB SITE at

www.thekarltonindex.com

This is a WebSite to give examples of Good Practice for Health Problems in Different Breeds of Dogs.

It is designed to give a Picture of what is Happening in each Breed.

Also designed to be a Resource to Further Health Awareness .

It is well worth looking at.


All we know about our Cavalier Breed is that

Around 90% of Cavaliers CM, which is Chacterized by Brains being Too Big and Skulls Too Small .

That 85 Whelps ,all had CM which were Researched for the Foetal Tissue Research.

Also the 26 Older Cavaliers MRI Scanned all had CM except 2 which were mildly affected.

There is MVD DATA Information which has given the number at 2009 ,8664 and I don't know but is this where the figure of 50% Cavaliers having Heart Murmurs at 5-6 years of age came from.

What do we find , that Officials in the CKCS CLUB are Squabbling with the British Veterinary Association and the Kennel Club, about not wanting the MRI Scan Results of Cavaliers to be Published in KC Club's Breed Supplement for Cavaliers, they want this Information to be being kept hidden from the Cavalier Buying Public.

Also that Cavalier Health Officials are saying the 50% of Cavaliers having Heart Murmurs at 5-6 years of age ,given by MVD Researchers , are not Valid.

So the Questioned must be being asked.

What are the Cavalier Officials doing about those Two Serious Problems Afflicting our Cavaliers?

Some Cavalier Breeders are doing all they can , but what about the other Cavalier Breeders who are Members of the UK CKCS CLUB.

Bet

Bet
12th March 2011, 10:55 AM
CAN THE CAVALIER BE SAVED?

I have just noticed this New WEB SITE at

www.thekarltonindex.com

This is a WebSite to give examples of Good Practice for Health Problems in Different Breeds of Dogs.

It is designed to give a Picture of what is Happening in each Breed.

Also designed to be a Resource to Further Health Awareness .

It is well worth looking at.


All we know about our Cavalier Breed is that

Around 90% of Cavaliers CM, which is Chacterized by Brains being Too Big and Skulls Too Small .

That 85 Whelps ,all had CM which were Researched for the Foetal Tissue Research.

Also the 26 Older Cavaliers MRI Scanned all had CM except 2 which were mildly affected.

There is MVD DATA Information which has given the number at 2009 ,8664 and I don't know but is this where the figure of 50% Cavaliers having Heart Murmurs at 5-6 years of age came from.

What do we find , that Officials in the CKCS CLUB are Squabbling with the British Veterinary Association and the Kennel Club, about not wanting the MRI Scan Results of Cavaliers to be Published in KC Club's Breed Supplement for Cavaliers, they want this Information to be being kept hidden from the Cavalier Buying Public.

Also that Cavalier Health Officials are saying the 50% of Cavaliers having Heart Murmurs at 5-6 years of age ,given by MVD Researchers , are not Valid.

So the Questioned must be being asked.

What are the Cavalier Officials doing about those Two Serious Problems Afflicting our Cavaliers?

Some Cavalier Breeders are doing all they can , but what about the other Cavalier Breeders who are Members of the UK CKCS CLUB.

Bet


CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

WHY are some Vociferious Cavalier Breeders so BLINKERED that they cannot understand the Harm they are doing to our Cavaliers by trying to Hinder the MRI Scanning Scheme from going ahead to help with the EBV Scheme by keeping those MRI Results Hidden.

I have just read what was said by Professor Jeff Sampson yesterday at Crufts about the Kennel Club's MATE SELECT Scheme, this is involved with the EBV SCHEME.

The Mate Select has information on every Dog that has been registered since the KC's Data-Base went Electronic in 1980

This Information goes further back because it includes the

PARENTS

GRAND-PARENTS

GREAT-GRAND-PARENTS

of Dogs Registered in 1980

Professor Sampson also said that this Data-Base can throw- out 25 Generations COI for some Dogs ,although typically it looks like it's about 8 Generations .

MATE SELECT will say Information complete for example 6 Generations and Incomplete for 8 Generations.

If IN-BREEDING has been involved with the Cavalier Breed's SM and MVD Health Problems , is this what some Cavalier Breeders are Scared about when their Cavaliers' COI's are being revealed.

Professor Sir P.Bateson said in his Report ,that even Grand-Father to Grand-Daughter ,Grand -Mother to Grand-Son is IN -BREEDING.

This where it now so important that the COI'S of Cavaliers can now be being revealed.

Not just for the benefit of Cavalier Breeders but the Cavalier Buying Public, if they see a Cavalier with the COI of say 25% and above and know about the Cavaliers' Health Problems ,then they could be wary of Breeding or buying that Cavalier.

If Prospective Cavalier Buyers cannot also be being shown Health Certificates and now Proof that the Cavalier Breeder has used the MATE SELECT information on their Cavalier Breeding Stock , then they should be advised to go to a Cavalier Breeder who does.

IN- BREEDING brings to the Fore the Health Problem that could have been Dormant.

Bet

Davecav
13th March 2011, 12:46 AM
Can you give the link for where Jeff Sampson said this? I have been on holiday for a few days so have missed out a bit and won't be at crufts.
thankyou

Bet
13th March 2011, 10:43 AM
Can you give the link for where Jeff Sampson said this? I have been on holiday for a few days so have missed out a bit and won't be at crufts.
thankyou


CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED ?

Davecav ,

You will see it on Jemima Harrison's Blog ,Pedigree Dogs Exposed.

Bet

Kate H
13th March 2011, 10:45 AM
Where the breeders who don't send their MRI results to the EBV scheme seem to be shortsighted is that their dogs' results are effectively going to be on there anyway. My understanding is that if, for example, a well-known and well-used stud dog has produced offspring with MVD or SM, and even one of those offspring is on the database, this will to some extent affect the Breeding Value of every dog in the affected dog's pedigree. For example, my Oliver is on the EBV database, with a three generation pedigree. So the evidence is there that he has SM, and this is going to affect the breeding values of every dog on his pedigree (though most of them are dead by now, because Oliver is nearly 10). So if someone wants to check out whether to line-breed to one of his illustrious forebears, the information on the EBV will reflect the fact that there is SM there (two of those forebears also had SM, but I'm not sure if they were scanned, as it was several years ago) - not by saying 'these dogs had SM', but by lowering their overall breeding value. If EBV doesn't provide detailed information, it will at least ring warning bells - why has that dog got a low score? Is it risky to breed back to him? Is it sensible to use this dog at stud? What questions do I need to ask? And I'm sure the EBV database will be used not only by breeders looking for a good match for a mating, but by serious puppy buyers who will check out the parents of a particular litter before buying.

All this refusal to go public with MRI results (even within the relative anonymity of the EBV scheme) is doing is raising the questions 'What have they got to hide?' 'Why aren't they proud to declare "My dog has scanned A" and is producing clear puppies?' The inference is that either the breeder hasn't scanned the dog (and therefore he is an unknown quantity and a risk) or the dog has scanned less than an A. This may be a wrong inference to draw - but unless the results are published, we DON'T KNOW.

Kate, Oliver and Aled

Bet
13th March 2011, 12:48 PM
Where the breeders who don't send their MRI results to the EBV scheme seem to be shortsighted is that their dogs' results are effectively going to be on there anyway. My understanding is that if, for example, a well-known and well-used stud dog has produced offspring with MVD or SM, and even one of those offspring is on the database, this will to some extent affect the Breeding Value of every dog in the affected dog's pedigree. For example, my Oliver is on the EBV database, with a three generation pedigree. So the evidence is there that he has SM, and this is going to affect the breeding values of every dog on his pedigree (though most of them are dead by now, because Oliver is nearly 10). So if someone wants to check out whether to line-breed to one of his illustrious forebears, the information on the EBV will reflect the fact that there is SM there (two of those forebears also had SM, but I'm not sure if they were scanned, as it was several years ago) - not by saying 'these dogs had SM', but by lowering their overall breeding value. If EBV doesn't provide detailed information, it will at least ring warning bells - why has that dog got a low score? Is it risky to breed back to him? Is it sensible to use this dog at stud? What questions do I need to ask? And I'm sure the EBV database will be used not only by breeders looking for a good match for a mating, but by serious puppy buyers who will check out the parents of a particular litter before buying.

All this refusal to go public with MRI results (even within the relative anonymity of the EBV scheme) is doing is raising the questions 'What have they got to hide?' 'Why aren't they proud to declare "My dog has scanned A" and is producing clear puppies?' The inference is that either the breeder hasn't scanned the dog (and therefore he is an unknown quantity and a risk) or the dog has scanned less than an A. This may be a wrong inference to draw - but unless the results are published, we DON'T KNOW.

Kate, Oliver and Aled


CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED ?


Thanks Kate for your Post .

Bet

Bet
15th March 2011, 10:34 AM
CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED ?


Thanks Kate for your Post .

Bet


CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED ?


With CRUFTS in fore-front in the DOG World at the Week-End and the Perlious State the Cavalier Breed is in because of their SM and MVD Problems, would it not be a good idea for the BOB and CC Winners at Cavalier Shows , their Owners show a Health Certificate that those Cavaliers have no MVD or SM Problems and have been Bred following the Cavalier Breeding Guidelines for SM and MVD.

It is those Cavaliers who are winning at Cavalier Shows ,particularly Cavalier Dogs who will be getting most involved with Cavalier Breeding Programs who could be having an influence on the Future of our Cavaliers.

Bet

Linda en Co
15th March 2011, 03:38 PM
Hello,

Is it not possible to search which different spaniels have been crossed to become the first Cavalier so that can be worked to have the Cavalier back as 40 years ago and with a longer flatter skull?

Bet
15th March 2011, 07:34 PM
Hello,

Is it not possible to search which different spaniels have been crossed to become the first Cavalier so that can be worked to have the Cavalier back as 40 years ago and with a longer flatter skull?

CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

Linda,

Are you talking about the SM Problem in Cavaliers, I don't know if this would work since the Researchers say that around 90% of Cavaliers have CM, this is Chacterised by the Brains being too Big and the Skulls too Small.

If about 90% of Cavaliers have CM, then there must also be many Cavaliers about, Carriers with the CM Gene/Genes.

Could I also mention the Letter which has been sent to Rosemary Smart , Chief Excutive of the Kennel Club by Mark Watts ,Chief Executive of the RSPCA.

He has written to the Kennel Club about the RSPCA's grave concern about the Interviewees and Presenters repeatedly gave the Message that Pedigree Dogs ,including those shown at Crufts , on the More 4 TV Program ,are Happy and Healthy.

The Letter goes onto say ,that the Public is being Misled , that the TV Coverage should have been Open and Honest about the Serious Health and Welfare Issues that continue to Affect many Pedigree Dogs ,that the Issues were Glossed over

That Many Pedigree Dogs remain Vulnerable to Unnecessary Disease ,Disability ,Pain or Behavioural Problems ,because they're Bred Primarily for how they look .

Did the TV Commentators mention about the Two Serious Health Problems Afflicting Our Cavalier Breed SM and MVD, No , only about they make an Ideal Pet .

Bet

Linda en Co
16th March 2011, 06:54 AM
Thanks for your answer Bet.

Bet
30th March 2011, 11:34 AM
Thanks for your answer Bet.



CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

Could this description also apply to our Cavaliers.

This has just appeared describing Pugs.

The Article mentions the Skull of the Pug Breed , but we know that around 90% of our Cavaliers have CM ,which is Chacterised by Brains being too Big and Skulls too Small .

Also the Article goes onto say that a Dog with a Short Snout (NOSE) has no Front -End Eye Protection when running in Grass ,that this can cause serious Injury because their Eyes sit right on the edge of the Wedge of their Skulls with little or no Protection,that Short Noses are Maladaptive.

Long Noses should be the Norm like many other Breeds have.

A Dog the the Article further mentions with a Short Nose will always have Teeth Problems ,I sure can vouch for that with the Teeth problems our Cavaliers had,that the Jaws have been Shortened and that now there is no Place for the Teeth and Tongue to go.

Also mentioned is a Dog with a Short Nose will always have a Compromised Sense of Smell and may always have Serious Breathing Problems, we have all read ,how on a Hot Day at Cavalier Shows particular care has to be being given to Cavaliers ,that they have to have Fans etc to ease their Breathing.

This reason for Dog's having Breathing Problems is that the Nasal Chambers are Smaller of a Short Nosed Dog than a Long Nosed Dog,and this can obstruct the Flow of Air

The Article concludes by saying that it was not Mother Nature who gave Dogs the Short Noses ,that those Physical Problems were not of the Dogs Making .

Finally can I conclude by saying that those Comments will get me into MORE HOT WATER with some Cavalier Breeders.

There is a Saying .


IF A PERSON CAN BE JUDGED BY THEIR ENEMIES .

THAT'S SOME ONE YOU'D ALWAYS WAN'T ON YOUR SIDE.

CAVALIER LOVER

Bet

Bet
5th April 2011, 07:48 PM
CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

Could this description also apply to our Cavaliers.

This has just appeared describing Pugs.

The Article mentions the Skull of the Pug Breed , but we know that around 90% of our Cavaliers have CM ,which is Chacterised by Brains being too Big and Skulls too Small .

Also the Article goes onto say that a Dog with a Short Snout (NOSE) has no Front -End Eye Protection when running in Grass ,that this can cause serious Injury because their Eyes sit right on the edge of the Wedge of their Skulls with little or no Protection,that Short Noses are Maladaptive.

Long Noses should be the Norm like many other Breeds have.

A Dog the the Article further mentions with a Short Nose will always have Teeth Problems ,I sure can vouch for that with the Teeth problems our Cavaliers had,that the Jaws have been Shortened and that now there is no Place for the Teeth and Tongue to go.

Also mentioned is a Dog with a Short Nose will always have a Compromised Sense of Smell and may always have Serious Breathing Problems, we have all read ,how on a Hot Day at Cavalier Shows particular care has to be being given to Cavaliers ,that they have to have Fans etc to ease their Breathing.

This reason for Dog's having Breathing Problems is that the Nasal Chambers are Smaller of a Short Nosed Dog than a Long Nosed Dog,and this can obstruct the Flow of Air

The Article concludes by saying that it was not Mother Nature who gave Dogs the Short Noses ,that those Physical Problems were not of the Dogs Making .

Finally can I conclude by saying that those Comments will get me into MORE HOT WATER with some Cavalier Breeders.

There is a Saying .


IF A PERSON CAN BE JUDGED BY THEIR ENEMIES .

THAT'S SOME ONE YOU'D ALWAYS WAN'T ON YOUR SIDE.

CAVALIER LOVER

Bet


CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?


I wonder if I could mention this from Jemima Harrison's latest Blog.

She begins by congratulating the Researchers that now the Cavalier Breeders and Cavalier Owners can now have access to DNA Tests as from 18 th April into the Health Problems of DRY EYE and CURLY COAT and EPISODIC FALLING through the ANIMAL HEALTH TRUST'S online DNA TESTING WEBSHOP AT

http://www..ahtdnatesting.co.uk/


She also adds this Sobering thought about our Beloved Cavalier Breed

When you add MVD

SYRINGOMYELIA

PSOM

LUXATING PATELLAS

DEAFNESS

RETINAL DYSPLASIA

and other Health Issues afflicting Our Cavaliers ,one has to ask just how many HEALTH PROBLEMS does Any One Breed have to suffer before One Starts to Question wheter it is MORALLY or ETHICALLY ACCEPTIBLE to Continue Breeding Them

Jemima Harrison continues by saying ,that of course not every Cavalier Doomed to Ill Health , and an Early Death,but
at what POINT does One Say ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

Particularly if the Cavalier Breed is continued to be being Bred in the Same Way that CREATED ALL THOSE PROBLEMS IN THE FIRST PLACE.

If I could now add my own thoughts to the Cavalier Health Problems ,particularly SM and MVD.

There is so much Bickering amongst a Certain Few Cavalier Breeders about the Cavaliers SM Problem ,surely when a Cavalier has a Syrinx and this has been said by Neurologists that a Syrinx Denotes SM, that it is so important not to Breed from a Cavalier before 2.5 years of age and know the Health Status of the Parents at 5.

This is to delay the Early On-Set of both SM and MVD.

That over 90 % of Cavaliers have CM, which is Chacterised with Brains Too Big and Skulls Too Small.

That 85 Whelps in the Foetal Tissue Research were all had CM.

Now what do we find what is happening ,that some of the more Vociferious of the Cavalier Breeders are looking for every Excuse they can come up with for Delaying the MRI Scanning Information being given to the EBV SCHEME.

Now onto the MVD Problem which has Afflicted the Cavaliers for so Many ,Many Years, that now the MVD Researchers are saying that there are could be so many Cavalier Carriers around with the MVD GENES.

I do wish the CKCS CLUB LIAISON COMMITTEE would realize this and stop Pussy Footing about and tell us Cavalier Owners who have been Heart Broken at losing our Cherished Cavaliers at such early ages.

WHAT ARE THEY DOING ABOUT THE MVD PROBLEM IN CAVALIERS?????

WE WOULD ALL LOVE TO HEAR FROM THE LIASON COMMITTEE THE ANSWER TO THIS!!!!!

Finally ,can I conclude by saying by saying that it was not the Cavalier Liason Committee who was involved in the Exciting DNA Discovery for the Episodic Falling in our Cavaliers ,this was all due to Barbara Reese and a few Friends.

Hopefully the CKCS LIAISON Committee will now tackle the TWO MOST SERIOUS HEATH PROBLEMS IN CAVALIERS, SM AND MVD, and not have the Cavalier Buying Public be wondering ,after reading Jemima Harrison's Blog, is there any -one who are Officials in the CKKC CLUB who really cares about about the Health of our Cavalier Breed.

Bet

Bet
6th April 2011, 10:47 AM
CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?


I wonder if I could mention this from Jemima Harrison's latest Blog.

She begins by congratulating the Researchers that now the Cavalier Breeders and Cavalier Owners can now have access to DNA Tests as from 18 th April into the Health Problems of DRY EYE and CURLY COAT and EPISODIC FALLING through the ANIMAL HEALTH TRUST'S online DNA TESTING WEBSHOP AT

http://www..ahtdnatesting.co.uk/


She also adds this Sobering thought about our Beloved Cavalier Breed

When you add MVD

SYRINGOMYELIA

PSOM

LUXATING PATELLAS

DEAFNESS

RETINAL DYSPLASIA

and other Health Issues afflicting Our Cavaliers ,one has to ask just how many HEALTH PROBLEMS does Any One Breed have to suffer before One Starts to Question wheter it is MORALLY or ETHICALLY ACCEPTIBLE to Continue Breeding Them

Jemima Harrison continues by saying ,that of course not every Cavalier Doomed to Ill Health , and an Early Death,but
at what POINT does One Say ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

Particularly if the Cavalier Breed is continued to be being Bred in the Same Way that CREATED ALL THOSE PROBLEMS IN THE FIRST PLACE.

If I could now add my own thoughts to the Cavalier Health Problems ,particularly SM and MVD.

There is so much Bickering amongst a Certain Few Cavalier Breeders about the Cavaliers SM Problem ,surely when a Cavalier has a Syrinx and this has been said by Neurologists that a Syrinx Denotes SM, that it is so important not to Breed from a Cavalier before 2.5 years of age and know the Health Status of the Parents at 5.

This is to delay the Early On-Set of both SM and MVD.

That over 90 % of Cavaliers have CM, which is Chacterised with Brains Too Big and Skulls Too Small.

That 85 Whelps in the Foetal Tissue Research were all had CM.

Now what do we find what is happening ,that some of the more Vociferious of the Cavalier Breeders are looking for every Excuse they can come up with for Delaying the MRI Scanning Information being given to the EBV SCHEME.

Now onto the MVD Problem which has Afflicted the Cavaliers for so Many ,Many Years, that now the MVD Researchers are saying that there are could be so many Cavalier Carriers around with the MVD GENES.

I do wish the CKCS CLUB LIAISON COMMITTEE would realize this and stop Pussy Footing about and tell us Cavalier Owners who have been Heart Broken at losing our Cherished Cavaliers at such early ages.

WHAT ARE THEY DOING ABOUT THE MVD PROBLEM IN CAVALIERS?????

WE WOULD ALL LOVE TO HEAR FROM THE LIASON COMMITTEE THE ANSWER TO THIS!!!!!

Finally ,can I conclude by saying by saying that it was not the Cavalier Liason Committee who was involved in the Exciting DNA Discovery for the Episodic Falling in our Cavaliers ,this was all due to Barbara Reese and a few Friends.

Hopefully the CKCS LIAISON Committee will now tackle the TWO MOST SERIOUS HEATH PROBLEMS IN CAVALIERS, SM AND MVD, and not have the Cavalier Buying Public be wondering ,after reading Jemima Harrison's Blog, is there any -one who are Officials in the CKKC CLUB who really cares about about the Health of our Cavalier Breed.

Bet


CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?


Can I start off by saying it's worth while Reading Margaret's Reply on Jemima Harrison's BLOG about the Cavalier Breed.

Also can I mention that it being mentioned by some Cavalier Breeders that the Buyers of Cavaliers won't understand the meaning of the Different GRADES, and that is why those Cavalier Breeders who are so much against the Publication of the MRI Scanning Results.

Then for Goodness Sake , as the Neurologists have said ,to make it Simpler for the Prospective Cavalier Buyer , to let them to be told ,if a Cavalier has a Syrinx ,that Cavalier has SM.

Then it is up to the Cavalier Buyer to understand what it means for a Cavalier to have CM ,SM or both conditions and the suffering and the expense that those Conditions can cost for Pain Relieving Medication ,then the Cavalier Buyer can make up their mind if they are prepared to risk having a Cavalier.

Is this not the Bottom Line , what the Cavalier Buyer wants to know is whether a Cavalier has a Syrinx which Denotes SM or not.

Is this not what should be being Publicised to all Buyers of Cavaliers?

I would think so.

Bet

anniemac
6th April 2011, 01:00 PM
It is very difficult for even me to understand. I had asked about in the usa, why do they not give certificates with grades and someone told me that it would be very difficult for a pet owner to understand.

I am not saying I am against the publication of results especially if it helps breeders be able to identify potential matches. I can't speak for the uk because I don't know about what certain certificates explain but as far as the usa, there still are several people unaware of SM. Plus a cavalier can be breed as a D grade (according to SM protocol) and so I wonder how that could be explained to pet buyers as to why it was used for breeding say to an A.

So yes, I feel it would need to explain more and actually have the pair and not simply one. I don't know but if it makes things better for breeders and researchers then great! For potential buyers, I personally feel they need to do their due diligence and ask on all issues and ask to see results themselves and not based on publications. One litter can change from previous. I personally feel if breeders explain to the potential owner all health conditions, possibility of CM/SM and importance of staying in contact, then the buyer knows risks. a grade A to a grade A still has a 25% chance according to research so it is something all people should know.

Don't have solution but let's hope in the usa, that I continue to see more low cost clinics and breeders starting to scan.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

anniemac
6th April 2011, 01:03 PM
I know the arguement is first time buyers don't know how to ask questions or due their own research, yet so many still fail to ask about heart certificates that I don't know how many would end up looking at scan grades. But this is something in the uk and I just wanted to express what someone said when asked about why we don't get certificates in the usa

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Bet
6th April 2011, 01:25 PM
It is very difficult for even me to understand. I had asked about in the usa, why do they not give certificates with grades and someone told me that it would be very difficult for a pet owner to understand.

I am not saying I am against the publication of results especially if it helps breeders be able to identify potential matches. I can't speak for the uk because I don't know about what certain certificates explain but as far as the usa, there still are several people unaware of SM. Plus a cavalier can be breed as a D grade (according to SM protocol) and so I wonder how that could be explained to pet buyers as to why it was used for breeding say to an A.

So yes, I feel it would need to explain more and actually have the pair and not simply one. I don't know but if it makes things better for breeders and researchers then great! For potential buyers, I personally feel they need to do their due diligence and ask on all issues and ask to see results themselves and not based on publications. One litter can change from previous. I personally feel if breeders explain to the potential owner all health conditions, possibility of CM/SM and importance of staying in contact, then the buyer knows risks. a grade A to a grade A still has a 25% chance according to research so it is something all people should know.

Don't have solution but let's hope in the usa, that I continue to see more low cost clinics and breeders starting to scan.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk


CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

ANNE, this is what I have fought for, for our Cavaliers over the past 20 years ibecause of their MVD Problem, and now it has Snow Balled onto the SM Problem, if the Parents have any sign of MVD they should not have been Bred from, and the same goes for SM ,if the Cavaliers have any signs of a Syrinx ,which means they are suffering from SM ,then they should not be being Bred from.

That's all the Prospective Cavalier Buyer needs to know, that the Cavalier they want to buy Parents or Parent has SM.

Bet

anniemac
6th April 2011, 02:37 PM
CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

ANNE, this is what I have fought for, for our Cavaliers over the past 20 years ibecause of their MVD Problem, and now it has Snow Balled onto the SM Problem, if the Parents have any sign of MVD they should not have been Bred from, and the same goes for SM ,if the Cavaliers have any signs of a Syrinx ,which means they are suffering from SM ,then they should not be being Bred from.

That's all the Prospective Cavalier Buyer needs to know, that the Cavalier they want to buy Parents or Parent has SM.

Bet

This is exactly my point. You could have a cavalier over 5, very small syrinx, extremely good heart line along with other health issues who is asymptomatic which if you say not be breed is actually not something I believe. That is why there are D's because to eliminate these would reduce gene pool and would be impossible for the breed to continue. So if you feel that way then that's your opinion to not have the breed and to respect it, but if things can be misunderstood (which even I do) then there is a problem.

I respect margaret carter because even though I don't feel the same, she asked a question and stated she does not know if they should continue to be bred. That's her opinion and she is open about it. People have a right to opinions and so do you so if that's how you feel, then I will respect it, but if breeders follow protocols then they are doing what researchers suggest which even includes D cavaliers so they should also not be faulted.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

anniemac
6th April 2011, 02:42 PM
Like Margaret, I respect others that have different opinions and speak out. We all have the right to our own feelings which can even change each day.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Bet
6th April 2011, 06:55 PM
Like Margaret, I respect others that have different opinions and speak out. We all have the right to our own feelings which can even change each day.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?


Anne ,

My opinion has never changed for over 20 years , that Cavaliers with MVD should NOT be Bred from, and now that Cavaliers with SM should not be Bred from either.

Until this is done our Cavaliers have no chance of Surviving .

I did'nt add Jemima Harrison's Final Paragraph from her Blog, but I will now.

IN- Breeding to a Greater or Lesser Extent within a Closed Gene Pool has created the Cavaliers' Health Problems .

Some Researchers caution against an Out -Cross until the Genetics of MVD and SM ,the Cavalier Breed's Two Most Serious Probles are Nailed, but there could be a Very Long Wait for this .

She concludes by saying.

Surely we are already way Past the Point at which ,Monitored Out--Crossing Programme should be Started?



Bet.

anniemac
6th April 2011, 07:29 PM
Dr. Rusbridge said in breeding guidelines that if older asymptomatic cavaliers must be used (for genetic diversity) then they should be mated to an A. Personally researchers is who would know and still ongoing. I would look to neurologists over anyone just like when they introduced the mvd protocol in 1998. Of course that has had longer research.

So your answer is no. My answer is I hope so and that is why I feel research is important

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

anniemac
6th April 2011, 07:33 PM
Can someone please clarify. I know the blog but have not read what You are mentioning. shouldn't we look to Dr. Rusbridge or at least breeders? I am totally confused as to gene pool and Maybe I shouldn't have answered

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Davecav
6th April 2011, 07:49 PM
Can someone please clarify. I know the blog but have not read what You are mentioning. shouldn't we look to Dr. Rusbridge or at least breeders? I am totally confused as to gene pool and Maybe I shouldn't have answered

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

I think the blog that is being referred to is Jemmima Harrisons, Pedigree dogs exposed/ She is a journalist/film producer. NOT AN EXPERT ON Genetics/SM/MVD etc.

This is my personal opinion - but I think she would be more than happy to see Cavaliers (and other breeds) disapear off the face of the earth - as it would make a really good 'story'

She has no affiliation to Cavaliers.

It is the researchers that are trying to find the genes that cause these problems that we are all pinning our hopes on, together with the breeders who are breeding for health.

Reducing the gene pool further is not an answer. (But I don't think any sensible person would advocate this)

anniemac
6th April 2011, 07:56 PM
I think the blog that is being referred to is Jemmima Harrisons, Pedigree dogs exposed/ She is a journalist/film producer. NOT AN EXPERT ON Genetics/SM/MVD etc.

This is my personal opinion - but I think she would be more than happy to see Cavaliers (and other breeds) disapear off the face of the earth - as it would make a really good 'story'

She has no affiliation to Cavaliers.

It is the researchers that are trying to find the genes that cause these problems that we are all pinning our hopes on, together with the breeders who are breeding for health.

Reducing the gene pool further is not an answer. (But I don't think any sensible person would advocate this)

Thank you so much! Feel much better and will continue on my quest for ellas birthday wish.


Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

anniemac
6th April 2011, 08:17 PM
I just really want people to continue to support ruperts fund and other research projects and when I read things are hopeless it upsets me.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

sins
6th April 2011, 08:54 PM
We all get times where we are deeply upset about the problems in the bred.
Its especially tough when you have to see the effects every day of syringomyelia on a little dog who means everything to you. Some days I feel we can't ask Daisy to go through one more week of what she has to endure.But I can't let her go...
Personally I don't know if the breed has a healthy future,and I do believe the situation is grave.
I believe also that there are very many good people trying to find a way to improve the situation,researchers,breeders,scientists and cavalier owners.
As for the outcrossing with another breed,while in some quarters,there may be some support for the idea,but we need to look at what the researchers have to say.
Back in 2007 there was an international symposium on Syringomyelia and questions were put to experts like Clare Rusbridge, Guy Rouleau and Sarah Blott.Some well known breeders and also Carol Fowler posed questions.I believe Margaret attended.
On the subject of outcrossing to other breeds:
There was said to be 46% diversity within the breed,it was felt that with good breeding schemes and if the genetic basis was figured out,that it would be possible to limit the disease and keep the breed.
Ideally it would have to be done with guidance and having the genetic markers and what was referred to as the computer programme that Sarah Blott hoped to design.
So here we are 3 1/2 years later,no EBVs available for beeders,but progress in the search for genetic markers and a greater awareness of the extent of the problem.
So none of the tools that would be needed to support the introduction of an outcross are in place ,and anyone attempting it would be as blind as the initial founders of the breed in terms of what exactly you were adding and taking away.
The future of the breed rests in the hands of the people breeding the litters...
Some will carry on regardless,oblivious to health issues,some will adopt a holding position and others will breed only from unaffected stock.
It's all up in the air and nobody can predict what way it will turn out.
Sins

Margaret C
6th April 2011, 10:00 PM
This is exactly my point. You could have a cavalier over 5, very small syrinx, extremely good heart line along with other health issues who is asymptomatic.


Just to clarify my feelings on the issue of using Grade D dogs

Logically I can see the need to use affected but asymptomatic dogs to keep the gene pool as diverse as possible.

The problem is that there is too many ways that breeders can use this as an excuse for keeping affected dogs with no special health merit in their breeding programmes.

1) These D dogs may not always come from an extended family that have certificates to show they were murmur free when elderly. One long lived ancestor does not make a 'good heart line'

2) These D dogs could be owned by breeders that are in denial. Would they really be able and willing to recognise SM symptoms?.

3) These cavaliers can sometimes be rescanned early-onset E grades That is not the same as using a D dog.

Using a Grade D cavalier as one of a mating pair raises the chances of having affected puppies to 50%. The risk is high enough with grade A x A matings ( 25% chance of affected puppies ).

I would not take the chance of buying from a litter with a D parent nor would I suggest that someone looking for a family pet should do so.

Why is it thought acceptable to sell the non-show standard puppies from these more risky litters to pet buyers?

As far as I an concerned if breeders want to increase the chances of producing puppies that suffer, then they should be prepared to keep them all until they know whether the gamble has paid off or not.

Let the breeder who wants to use D dogs deal on a daily basis with the resulting affected offspring. Let them watch the dogs suffer and let them pay for the medication.




I respect margaret carter because even though I don't feel the same, she asked a question and stated she does not know if they should continue to be bred. That's her opinion and she is open about it.


I would be more able to accept that cavaliers will continue to be born at great risk of a shortened and painful life if I could see any evidence that breeders were making some effort to reverse what is happening, but the published figures shows it is not so.

All the stud dogs on the list in the 2010 Yearbook were used before 2.5 years. The dogs that won the most points in the show ring were used before 2.5 years.

Cavaliers are being destroyed by those that in the words of the UK Cavalier Club should "act in a responsible manner with due regard to the welfare of the dogs under their control"

Brian M
6th April 2011, 10:37 PM
lo Margaret

What makes these breeders use these stud dogs at such an early age when we all know it is total contradiction of the MVD breeding protocol as advised by their own Club .

What makes them all do it .?

It really irritates me when some acclaim we have been breeding for 50-60 years or more therefore we know all ,I just look at the state of the breed now and the complete mess it is in with a limited chance of survival and these same ones are saying it is only them who have the knowledge and they are going to save the breed ,pls pass the bucket I feel sick .Oh and of course SM is not real though there may be the odd one around with something wrong but we know all those silly researchers know nothing and anyway its all grossly overstated so leave it to us and don't forget look what we have given you after 50 years ,yes us breeders of 50 - 60 years standing will save the Cavalier breed .icon_devil
Yuk!

Sorry if I digress but post after post is doom .

Maybe if all these aged breeders disappeared and left the breed to a younger more pro health conscious vibrant group of young good breeders that are around ,maybe with them working with the researcher's we could move forward cos the old way is broken and wont work.

anniemac
6th April 2011, 11:25 PM
Hello Margaret

What makes these breeders use these stud dogs at such an early age when we all know it is total contradiction of the MVD breeding protocol as advised by their own Club .

What makes them all do it .?

It really irritates me when some acclaim we have been breeding for 50-60 years or more therefore we know all ,I just look at the state of the breed now and the complete mess it is in with a limited chance of survival and these same ones are saying it is only them who have the knowledge and they are going to save the breed ,pls pass the bucket I feel sick .Oh and of course SM is not real though there may be the odd one around with something wrong but we now all those silly researchers know nothing and anyway its all grossly overstated so leave it to us and don't forget look what we have given you after 50 years ,yes us breeders of 50 - 60 years standing will save the Cavalier breed .icon_devil
Yuk!

Sorry if I digress but post after post is doom .

Maybe if all these aged breeders disappeared and left the breed to a younger more pro health conscious vibrant younger group like Sins breeder on the south coast ,maybe them working with the researcher's we could move forward cos the old way is broken and wont work.

Brian,

I agree and don't understand about not following the mvd protocol. I don't like classifying all breeders in one category. Yes, I have heard "we've been breeding for 30 years etc." But I have also heard from an older club member that breeders and club members are dying out and they need younger people. That is why I personally feel to go to shows and learn. Yes I will be faced with a stubborn person and I'm in usa but also might meet others. I know they are there but keep lower profiles.

I just heard someone disagree with % affected and I have stated that I don't care about % when I have one. I care about moving forward and letting research and experts understand why some show symptoms, others don't, genes, etc. SM can be medically managed for a lot and yet I am crying not knowing ellas future.

So I like to look at each dog, each breeder, each medication but I don't know much about mvd research but that has been pretty much agreed on for a long time as far as protocols go.

Yes I may be niave and have not been involved for a long time, but why not start now. If one person snubs me, I will find another. They will eventually retire and I would like to learn more.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

anniemac
6th April 2011, 11:28 PM
Brian,

I too get tired of the doom and gloom no future. You always know how to make me smile so maybe time to adjust and look at how to move to a more positive future.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Margaret C
7th April 2011, 12:03 AM
Hello Anne,

I know that you are really trying so hard to understand, so to answer a question you asked elsewhere.

Personally I frequently doubt there is any hope that we will improve the future prospects of the breed. There should be hope, but those who should be the Guardians of cavaliers do nothing until forced into taking action.

In my more optimistic moments I do believe we will need to outcross, perhaps to a variety of breeds, but this should be planned carefully and with the advice of geneticists.
If the Chiari Malformation, the poor quality of the occipital bone, and the inability of the brain tissue and the hind brain to 'communicate' and stop growing are some, or all, of the reasons why the Cavalier has an increased risk of SM, then outcrossing to a breed that may bring improvements in those areas would seem to be logical.

In my more pesimistic moments I think this breed will continue to degenerate into one that no civilised society can allow to continue to exist and suffer.
Not because it was inevitable, but because cavalier breeders will not 'wait and test'.

So why do I continue to raise money and arrange for little cavalier bodies to be transported to pathology departments so tissue samples can go to research?

Probably because I love this very special breed and I don't feel able to give up on it yet.

anniemac
7th April 2011, 12:25 AM
Margaret,

I know you love the breed, monty and grumpy old william both have stones already. Its just so much to understand and genetics freak me out when I do think a lot needs to still be understood. I do get scared people will focus on one thing and not another. If we start putting emphasis on one thing, I don't know. You have been to seminars, lead as health chair, been a breeder and involved in shows and so I am sure there is so much, actually I KNOW there is a lot of things I don't understand and want to learn.

You have always said you can talk about the UK and I don't know or feel its my place to talk about things with the kc in the uk when the usa still has some work to do. I get told several things and I do mix things up, but I have a problem when anyone (which you have never done) tells me that I have no idea what I'm talking about. Which I admit I don't but this is not just breeders.

I get frustrated because I want to know when ella passes, I can donate her remains to a worthy cause like the one you created. I have no idea and don't know what to do here.

SM is a very frustrating thing and like ellas future, I don't know but I want to at least be a part of things while I can.

I wish I got involved with freestyle. I would have loved to know about dancing with cavaliers.

So I know you always ask questions that make me think and I like that. I just have a different view and maybe I want to know more before.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Margaret C
7th April 2011, 01:39 AM
Hello Margaret

What makes these breeders use these stud dogs at such an early age when we all know it is total contradiction of the MVD breeding protocol as advised by their own Club .

What makes them all do it .? .

Hello Brian,

That is one question they will not answer, but I don't think it is for the good of the cavaliers involved.


Oh and of course SM is not real though there may be the odd one around with something wrong but we now all those silly researchers know nothing and anyway its all grossly overstated.

Obviously researchers from all over the world are in a conspiracy to deceive cavalier owners about the extent of the problem.



the old way is broken and wont work.

I don't think that message has sunk in yet.

There are a lot of breeders that still think that if they ignore all the fuss it will go away.
They still imagine they will be able to go back to breeding, without any thought of health, as they have done for years.

tuppenlil
7th April 2011, 08:37 AM
Obviously researchers from all over the world are in a conspiracy to deceive cavalier owners about the extent of the problem.

There are a lot of breeders that still think that if they ignore all the fuss it will go away.


Margaret

Yes I find the conspiracy theory interesting too...neurologists from all over the world, the Animal Health Trust, the Royal Veterinary College, the BVA, the BSAVA ( who just gave Clare Rusbridge an award in recognition of her work on SM) leading radiologists, MRI centres, dozens of research papers.....even the KC for funding some of this work.....they are obviously all in the conspiracy together!

The only 'conspiracy' is a few breeders who still think that if they ignore it, a grossly overstated problem......it will go away. Their conspiracy is to either not to scan or scan and not share the results, to stop others sharing their results, not supporting the EBV, keep trying to discredit some of the researchers.....

If a few years ago we had all got together and acknowledged a problem, all shared our results and our 'anomolies' with all the researchers we might have more answers by now.......

I still believe there is some hope for the breed as there are some very responsible breeders who are doing their very best against all the odds. And we are lucky to have some very dedicated researchers.


Maggie

Bet
7th April 2011, 11:15 AM
Margaret

Yes I find the conspiracy theory interesting too...neurologists from all over the world, the Animal Health Trust, the Royal Veterinary College, the BVA, the BSAVA ( who just gave Clare Rusbridge an award in recognition of her work on SM) leading radiologists, MRI centres, dozens of research papers.....even the KC for funding some of this work.....they are obviously all in the conspiracy together!

The only 'conspiracy' is a few breeders who still think that if they ignore it, a grossly overstated problem......it will go away. Their conspiracy is to either not to scan or scan and not share the results, to stop others sharing their results, not supporting the EBV, keep trying to discredit some of the researchers.....

If a few years ago we had all got together and acknowledged a problem, all shared our results and our 'anomolies' with all the researchers we might have more answers by now.......

I still believe there is some hope for the breed as there are some very responsible breeders who are doing their very best against all the odds. And we are lucky to have some very dedicated researchers.


Maggie


CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED ?


Can I put these comments again that I have Posted before on this List from an Article.

I sure think that they are very apt in this Discussion.

Genetic Disease continues to inspire a range of Negative Human behaviour ,wrapping the Subject in a Shroud of Secrecy and Denial.

We all know that this happening at the Moment , that some Cavalier Breeders continue to say that the SM Figures are being exaggerated by the Researchers and the Broken Hearted Cavalier Owners of Cavaliers with SM.

(Not even with the SM Figures ,but even by a Newly Appointed Health Representative of the CKCS CLUB who has said that she does not believe the MVD figures given by the Researchers into the MVD Problem in our Cavaliers.)

Back to the Article.

It says the Intimidation to enforce SILENCE, THE FEAR of Speaking out , and the Inability to Face Facts.

The Breeders who put WINNING above all other Goals ,their belief is, it does'nt matter as Long as the Dog Wins .

Their Dog must WIN ,as Must their DOG'S Off-Springs ,and Woe betide any-one who stands in their way as they Pursue Greater Breed and Personal Glory

THIS EGO DRIVEN BEHAVIOUR AFFECTS GENETIC DISEASE CONTROL

IF A GENECTIC PROBLEM IS NOT APPARENT ,
THEY WILL IGNORE IT!!!

If another Person knows about the Problem ,any means will be used to QUIETEN that Person ,such as BULLY TACTICS and RUMOR MONGERING

Can I just mention to those So Called Guardians of our Beloved Cavaliers .

Remember about the Heart Broken Kiddie who has just been told that His or Her Cherished Cavalier has been Put to Sleep because of the Devastating Disease of either SM or MVD which is Afflicting our Cavalier Breed

The Article mentions the OSTRICH SYNDROME , which means that Many Breeders ,and I will substitute this for SOME CAVALIER BREEDERS ,who will find Excuses and Justifications for not doing Health Screening Tests.

The Fear of Genectic Diseases ,the Article goes onto say ,can lead to GROUP BEHAVIOUR ,some-times the FOLLOWERS of a BIG NAME who wish to CURRY FAVOUR, HEALTH RESULTS WILL BE SUPPRESSED ,and even HEALTH PROGRAMS STIFLED.

Bet

Margaret C
7th April 2011, 03:06 PM
I have just read a comment about a population of wolves on the Isle Royale in the US.

This is said to be a natural experiment on the effects of inbreeding alone, with continuing natural selection and no artificial selection for appearance.

The wolves are cut off on the island because ice bridges to the mainland only form when winters are unusually severe.

"The scientists found that 58 percent of the wolves on Isle Royale exhibit a congenital malformation in the lumbosacral region or lower back, and 33 percent display a specific deformity—lumbosacral transitional vertebrae—which can cause full or partial paralysis of the rear legs and tail, as well as back pain."

"For the last 12 years, every one of the dead wolves the researchers have found has displayed bone deformities. In contrast, these deformities occur in only 1 percent of studied wolf populations that are not inbred."

"Up to now, wildlife management agencies in the US and Scandinavia have cited the Isle Royale wolves as proof that small wolf populations can avoid genetic deterioration and remain viable.
"Our study removes one more example that some use to downplay the consequences of genetic deterioration," the Swedish scientist Raikkonen says"

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/04/090402171440.htm (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/04/090402171440.htm)

sunshinekisses
7th April 2011, 04:14 PM
It really irritates me when some acclaim we have been breeding for 50-60 years or more therefore we know all ......Maybe if all these aged breeders disappeared and left the breed to a younger more pro health conscious vibrant group of young good breeders that are around ,maybe with them working with the researcher's we could move forward cos the old way is broken and wont work.

Yes, once the older breeders retire and keep all their secret information about breeding, all we will be left with is EBV's and breeding protocols set up by researchers and scientist to help eliminate the breed health problems. Imagine that.

Jay
7th April 2011, 05:23 PM
It really irritates me when some acclaim we have been breeding for 50-60 years or more therefore we know all

I have been in my chosen profession for well over 30 years. If I continue to do now what I learned when I had first started, I would be doing a huge disservice, even malpractice to the deaf and hard of hearing children I work with. I do ongoing continuing education to keep current with ongoing research, even getting my doctorate degree a few years ago.

Experience is important, but if you don't keep up with current research, you are nothing but a dinosaur. I don't know anyone who would want a doctor who was still doing what they did even 10 years ago! I guess I don't understand why breeders are not taking advantage of all of the tools that are available to at least try to help produce healthier dogs....I would be embracing the researchers who are trying to find the answers.

J.

anniemac
7th April 2011, 06:02 PM
Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

anniemac
7th April 2011, 11:25 PM
I have just read a comment about a population of wolves on the Isle Royale in the US.

This is said to be a natural experiment on the effects of inbreeding alone, with continuing natural selection and no artificial selection for appearance.

The wolves are cut off on the island because ice bridges to the mainland only form when winters are unusually severe.

"The scientists found that 58 percent of the wolves on Isle Royale exhibit a congenital malformation in the lumbosacral region or lower back, and 33 percent display a specific deformity—lumbosacral transitional vertebrae—which can cause full or partial paralysis of the rear legs and tail, as well as back pain."

"For the last 12 years, every one of the dead wolves the researchers have found has displayed bone deformities. In contrast, these deformities occur in only 1 percent of studied wolf populations that are not inbred."

"Up to now, wildlife management agencies in the US and Scandinavia have cited the Isle Royale wolves as proof that small wolf populations can avoid genetic deterioration and remain viable.
"Our study removes one more example that some use to downplay the consequences of genetic deterioration," the Swedish scientist Raikkonen says"

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/04/090402171440.htm (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/04/090402171440.htm)

Margaret,

I sent you article about moscow strays and how they have watched them evolve since the 1800's. A researcher has studied them and now grouped to 4 categories. Said there are ones that have increased intellegence and actually have mastered the subway system.

Now if there are some with increased intellegence does that mean their brain is bigger? JOKE! Its been a long couple days.

When people start getting into some things that are way deep, it gets me uncomfortable. However, this is what it is like to see evolution being studied. Now, I don't think cavaliers would make the subway no matter how genetically healthy they are.

Ok, no rest last night so just wanted to respond about wolf study but can't copy and past link...

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Margaret C
8th April 2011, 12:00 AM
Hello Anne,

Sorry you are not sleeping. I hope both you and Ella are alright?

Thank you for sending me the link about the Moscow strays.

For those wanting to read an interesting article...............

http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2010-01/moscows-stray-dogs-evolving-greater-intelligence-wolf-characteristics-and-mastery-subway

anniemac
8th April 2011, 02:04 AM
Margaret,

I sent the one I originally saw which references skull sizes etc and pedigree dogs and domistication of wolves.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

anniemac
8th April 2011, 06:45 AM
Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

anniemac
8th April 2011, 07:07 AM
Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Bet
8th April 2011, 11:56 AM
Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

HOW CAN IT?

When at the AGM 2009 the Lecture given by the CKCS CLUB'S Cardiologist said that 50% of Cavaliers have a Heart Murmur at 5-6 years of Age ,and this NO BETTER THAN IT WAS 18 YEARS AGO.

And Research Cardiologists mention that there are Many Cavaliers now Carriers of the MVD GENES.

It looks as if ,because of this Statement that it will be about impossible to find Two Cavaliers to Mate to-gether who are not MVD Carriers.

To save the Breed a Cavalier who is not a MVD Carrier can be Mated to Cavalier MVD Carrier.

So ,can the Cavalier Breed be able to be Saved ,be Summed Up with Two Words.

NO CHANCE.

Bet

PS ,and this is only for Cavaliers MVD Problem ,not their SM Problem .












So is the Answere to this

RodRussell
9th April 2011, 01:14 AM
CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

HOW CAN IT?

When at the AGM 2009 the Lecture given by the CKCS CLUB'S Cardiologist said that 50% of Cavaliers have a Heart Murmur at 5-6 years of Age ,and this NO BETTER THAN IT WAS 18 YEARS AGO.

And Research Cardiologists mention that there are Many Cavaliers now Carriers of the MVD GENES.

It looks as if ,because of this Statement that it will be about impossible to find Two Cavaliers to Mate to-gether who are not MVD Carriers.

To save the Breed a Cavalier who is not a MVD Carrier can be Mated to Cavalier MVD Carrier.

So ,can the Cavalier Breed be able to be Saved ,be Summed Up with Two Words.

NO CHANCE. ...

ONE MORE TIME:

The goal is NOT to eradicate MVD in the breed. It is to reduce, and eventually eliminate, EARLY ONSET MVD in the breed. GOT IT????

Bet
9th April 2011, 10:38 AM
ONE MORE TIME:

The goal is NOT to eradicate MVD in the breed. It is to reduce, and eventually eliminate, EARLY ONSET MVD in the breed. GOT IT????

CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?


This is why you feel like you are Banging your Head Against a Brick Wall , when some of the Cavalier Breeders keep insisting that Cavalier Breeding Guidelines are just that , only Breeding Guidelines, they just can't seem to understand that those Breeding Guidelines have been given by the Researchers for a Purpose ,to Delay the Early Onset of MVD and SM.

Unfortunately some of those Cavalier Breeders seem to have Illusions of Grandeur , that they Know Better than the Information coming from the Researchers.

Those Breeders I would think have no Knowledge in Genetics for our Cavaliers , I doubt if any of them have a Degree in the Subject .

As I said in a Previous Post ,for some Cavalier Breeders , and sadly they seem to be holding Places of Authority in the Cavalier Club ,Fear of Genetic Diseases can lead to Group Behaviour , some-times the Followers of a Big Name? wish to Curry Favour , Health Survey Results will be Suppressed , and as we seeing at the Moment here in Britain, Genetic Health Programs being Stifled.

Bet

Bet
9th April 2011, 07:38 PM
CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?


This is why you feel like you are Banging your Head Against a Brick Wall , when some of the Cavalier Breeders keep insisting that Cavalier Breeding Guidelines are just that , only Breeding Guidelines, they just can't seem to understand that those Breeding Guidelines have been given by the Researchers for a Purpose ,to Delay the Early Onset of MVD and SM.

Unfortunately some of those Cavalier Breeders seem to have Illusions of Grandeur , that they Know Better than the Information coming from the Researchers.

Those Breeders I would think have no Knowledge in Genetics for our Cavaliers , I doubt if any of them have a Degree in the Subject .

As I said in a Previous Post ,for some Cavalier Breeders , and sadly they seem to be holding Places of Authority in the Cavalier Club ,Fear of Genetic Diseases can lead to Group Behaviour , some-times the Followers of a Big Name? wish to Curry Favour , Health Survey Results will be Suppressed , and as we seeing at the Moment here in Britain, Genetic Health Programs being Stifled.

Bet


CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?


Just noticed this Comment in this Week's DOG WORLD from the CKCS CLUB'S CHAIR -PERSON.

She is mentioning about the Mutations for Dry Eye and Curly Coat and the Episodic Falling Problem in our Cavalier Breed that have been found.

Then ,she goes onto say that this is Proof that Working with the Experts Helps.

These Scientists have given their Time to Help the Cavalier Breed,however if no-one is Prepared to Provide the DATA ,we cannot move forward,that ,she says is the difficulty.

She further said ,that at the CLUB'S HEART TESTING carried out by Simon Swift ,the Club's Cardiologist at the CLUB'S Championship Show in March,,he was disappointed to find that there were only Three Cavaliers over the Age of 7 who were Murmur Free.

She continues by saying ,that the CLUB now awaits the Out-come of Talks regarding the Imminent KC/BVA SM SCHEME and the and the Apparent Stumbling Block of Publication of Results.

Is this because of Some Cavalier Breeders in the Shallow World of Cavalier Showing, usually a Group of Elderly Women ,(with an Occasional Male) who are Steadfast in the View ,even when Wrong,that they are the SELF PROCLAIMED EXPERTS in the Cavalier Breed,with their Chant .

WE ARE THE BREED ,THERE IS NOTHING ANY-ONE CAN TEACH US ABOUT CAVALIERS!.

Unfortunately All this does is to Create Disharmony, Damages Cavaliers and Stagnates the Gene Pool to such a Degree that Health Crisis are Inevitable.

Bet

EmmaP
9th April 2011, 10:38 PM
I have been reading all these letters about how can the cavalier breed be saved. I don't understand why people are saying these things. I have waited so long to find the right time in my life when I can have a cavvie and now people are saying that they shouldn't be bred any more.
Several of my family members have had cavvies and they have all seemed to be quite healthy. Charlies Mam and Dad are both over five years old and his breeder says that lots of his relations have lived a long time. I don't know about the puppy farm ones. I think they have a lot of problems. There is a rescue place in Wales that takes them in and some are in an awful state and so sad to see. I would have liked to have had one of these but they like them to go to homes that have another dog.

HollyDolly
10th April 2011, 12:21 AM
Is this because of Some Cavalier Breeders in the Shallow World of Cavalier Showing, usually a Group of Elderly Women ,(with an Occasional Male) who are Steadfast in the View ,even when Wrong,that they are the SELF PROCLAIMED EXPERTS in the Cavalier Breed,with their Chant .

Bet


How dare you mock the showing of dogs, you realy are becoming a sad person Bet.
I cannot understand the constant need to go on and on and on posting the same comments> Everyone has heard it all before:bang:

Nanette

Bet
10th April 2011, 10:24 AM
How dare you mock the showing of dogs, you realy are becoming a sad person Bet.
I cannot understand the constant need to go on and on and on posting the same comments> Everyone has heard it all before:bang:

Nanette


CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?


Nanette,

Just Quoting from an Article which was Published in the Telegraph News-Paper.

Also what the CKCS Chair-Person mentioned in this Week's DOG WORLD, about how the Health of the Cavalier Breed cannot move forward unless the every-one is Prepared to Provide the Data Needed.

Bet

sins
10th April 2011, 11:49 AM
Bet,
It doesn't matter what's written in the Telegraph.
Oddly enough,it probably doesn't even matter what the Club Chairman says.
Because people will carry on doing what they want to do,regardless of what anyone says or thinks.
At the end of the day..until the people who buy cavalier puppies decide they want a decent puppy from a breeder who tests for eyes,heart and Mri scans..
then all the weeping and gnashing of teeth is a pointless exercise.
Leaving politics out of the equation,there is NOTHING to stop a breeder from doing as much testing as they wish.
Basically you can breed according to your conscience
or according to the recommended guidelines,
or sometimes even both..
While driving to Devon recently,to collect my new puppy,We drove through Wales after getting off the ferry.It was an eye opener to drive past the farms where signs were up in the fields beside large sheds...PUPS FOR SALE!
The pups may well have been potatoes,turnips or strawberries..drop in...pick your own..:mad:
I seriously doubt for one moment that these guys gave a toss about the cavalier club chairman or what she thinks or feels about the need for data.
and yes,there are Club breeders too who will tell you that they don't believe in scanning.
But what really matters is when you come to buy your puppy...Do you??

Sins

Bet
10th April 2011, 12:44 PM
Bet,
It doesn't matter what's written in the Telegraph.
Oddly enough,it probably doesn't even matter what the Club Chairman says.
Because people will carry on doing what they want to do,regardless of what anyone says or thinks.
At the end of the day..until the people who buy cavalier puppies decide they want a decent puppy from a breeder who tests for eyes,heart and Mri scans..
then all the weeping and gnashing of teeth is a pointless exercise.
Leaving politics out of the equation,there is NOTHING to stop a breeder from doing as much testing as they wish.
Basically you can breed according to your conscience
or according to the recommended guidelines,
or sometimes even both..
While driving to Devon recently,to collect my new puppy,We drove through Wales after getting off the ferry.It was an eye opener to drive past the farms where signs were up in the fields beside large sheds...PUPS FOR SALE!
The pups may well have been potatoes,turnips or strawberries..drop in...pick your own..:mad:
I seriously doubt for one moment that these guys gave a toss about the cavalier club chairman or what she thinks or feels about the need for data.
and yes,there are Club breeders too who will tell you that they don't believe in scanning.
But what really matters is when you come to buy your puppy...Do you??

Sins


CAN THE CAVALIER BREED BE SAVED?

Back to my Original Question....

Only if the Cavalier Buying Public are told about how sick the Cavalier Breed is with their SM and MVD Health Problems ,and what the Medications cost to help relieve the Cavaliers suffering from the Pain of SM and MVD.

I am not sure about this , but is it not about £ 100 a month.

That way ,if the Prospective Cavalier Buyers know these Facts and perhaps don't buy Cavaliers for a while , then many Cavalier Breeders will have to change their Attitude about how they are Breeding Cavaliers ,this will also include the Cavaliers Bred on Puppy Farms.

What other way is there for the Health Problems in our Cavalier Breed to be tackled?

For Sure ,after over 20 years the MVD Problem is not improving in Cavaliers with many Cavalier Breeders not heeding the Breeding Guidelines that have been given by the Researchers.

Just maybe though, the message is getting across to to the Buyers of Cavaliers ,since the Registrations have dropped by over 3,000 in the Past Two years, to just on 8,000 the Lowest they have ever been for I would think 40 years.

Bet

Karlin
10th April 2011, 12:58 PM
Bet and others on this thread: I will place ALL of you on moderation if you choose to make personal and derogatory comments about either individuals or groups that are simply ad hominem attacks. Deal with the issues only please.

This includes directly insulting anyone on this board which is grounds for removing people from board membership. People agree NOT to do this when they register by agreeing to the terms of board use and some are repeat offenders in this department and are stretching my willingness to keep them here pretty thin as I get tired of having to read everything you post for appropriateness.

This also includes making totally inappropriate (and ridiculous) comments about age (Bet, what the hell does age matter whether of people showing dogs or arguing for health? There are young and old on all sides. There are plenty of young breeders with poor breeding practice and older breeders who are strong health advocates and age is *meaningless* in either context).

I am now locking this thread and the relevant issues of interest WITHOUT the childish and personal comments can be reopened in a new forum. But I am close to permanently removing several members here.

Karlin
10th April 2011, 01:08 PM
PS I ABSOLUTELY AGREE with this comment.


At the end of the day..until the people who buy cavalier puppies decide they want a decent puppy from a breeder who tests for eyes,heart and Mri scans..
then all the weeping and gnashing of teeth is a pointless exercise.


Many here are responsible puppy buyers. Others bought before they knew the true picture about what to ask about and look for in a breeder, and are wiser now.

But I am tired of watching puppy BUYERS on this site and elsewhere talk about supporting health then getting a new puppy asap without ever requesting and seeing MRI certs, cardio certs and other important information (or changing their mind to opt for a cheap puppy from a non-testing breeder or part-testing breeder :x ).

Too many BUYERS still think health in the breed is a philosophical issue they support fully -- except when it comes to their own instant gratification in getting their puppy. Some who post here claiming their breeder was health focused are so obviously not telling the truth of who they bought from and what they KNOW the breeder does NOT do when it comes to health testing. :( You know who you are -- I often ask you if you saw MRI certs and you reply to all sorts of other questions but not that one. :x

The future of the breed would change in an *instant* if all buyers demanded proper health clearances. But we -- too many of you, of us -- do not. Buyers -- meaning members here, and those who are not members but read the site -- are just as responsible for improving the dire state of the breed, and need to search consciences as much as breeders and show by actions -- who you buy puppies from! -- that you truly want this breed to not just survive but live longer healthier lives with less pain.