PDA

View Full Version : Well the rescues are here....



Reptigirl
19th December 2010, 04:18 AM
We'll I picked up Flash's parents today. THANKFULLY no money was involved. I know some people were against me paying to get them out of the mill they were in but I was able to finally work her down. I pointed out some of the extreme health issues infront of other people making her realize just how bad they are..... Finally she handed them over with all their records at no cost.

They are VERY sweet and human friendly. They are just uncomfortable being held. If you sit on the floor they come right into your lap!
There teeth are VERY bad... I think the male needs most all of his teeth pulled (he is only 4!!!!) The females teeth are in a little bit better shape!!!! Actually besides lack of fur (possibly because she just weaned another litter of pups???) she seems to be in the best overall outward health... There is something odd about the males back legs but he doesn't show any signs of pain. Sometimes he walks fine..and other times his back legs spread apart almost a foot and he kind of "hops" for 4 or 5 steps and then he is normal again.... (:confused:)

Here they are in the tub right before a bath. (OH they smelled to high heavens!!! I was gagging on the way home)
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w220/Skyz84/DSCN1590.jpg

******** WARNING: THE REST OF THE PHOTO'S MAY BE UPSETTING ********

Dad:
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w220/Skyz84/DSCN1613.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w220/Skyz84/DSCN1602.jpg
(This is the GOOD side of his mouth!!! The other side is so bad he wont let you mess with it. The teeth on the other side are almost completely gone!!!)
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w220/Skyz84/DSCN1576.jpg

Mom:
I know it looks like she has a little fur but it is VERY VERY thin...
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w220/Skyz84/DSCN1592.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w220/Skyz84/DSCN1595.jpg


Can anyone give me advise on how to start to control there barking? They WERE outside kennel dogs and are very.... "yappy"?

I gave them a choice of places to sleep and they crawled in a small kennel together that I had covered with a blanket... .Letting them sleep for now....

Now to get them medically checked out...But must sleep now while the house is quiet.....

Soushiruiuma
19th December 2010, 06:39 AM
Please be careful with feeding, the weight will need to be put on gradually. Overfeeding chronically starved animals can kill them overnight.

Glad you were able to shame the owner out of getting money!! They are in bad shape, but they'll come around. Both dogs are very lucky you stuck up for them and got them out of that horrible situation.

Reptigirl
19th December 2010, 07:53 AM
Trying to be careful with the feeding... I offered them 2 very small dinners spaced about 3 hours apart. I softened the food for them (more for the male then the female). Setting my alarm for about 5 hours from now to take them out and check up on them.

So far they have accepted the collar and leash just fine and have had no accidents inside. They are very familiar with the kennel and either prefer to be in my lap on the floor or in the kennel. I have then sharing an X-large kennel (German Shepard sized). I tried a doggy play pen but the girl kept climbing out.

I've been changing clothes, rinsing off in the shower and sterilizing everything that comes in contact with them. They are at opposite ends of the house from my other two dogs. Although everyone is vaccinated I'm still very worried what they could be carrying. I'm being super careful until they get the okay from the vet.... I'm just hoping it's careful enough!!!

Very exhausted... I have a feeling tomorrow is going to be a LONG day!!!! Bed time for me!

Rubysmum
19th December 2010, 09:46 AM
well done on getting them.. they have such sweet faces and i wish you lots of luck in getting them back to good health . it makes me so angry what humans are capable of xx

Nicki
19th December 2010, 09:48 AM
Oh goodness Shannon that is just so upsetting to see :(:(:(

Poor wee darlings, I do understand totally why you couldn't leave them - and it's brilliant that you shamed her into not taking any money for them - I think you might be needing it for vet bills :mad:

I know a lot of people said that you shouldn't be paying for them anyway as it just encourages her to breed more, ethically that is correct, but it's not so easy when you have seen the dogs yourself...and at least you haven't ended up paying for them, hopefully the story she gave you is indeed true and the most important thing is they are safe now.


How could she possibly let them get into this state? I know none of the welfare organisations seemed interested, but I think you should send them those photos - that extreme lack of weight is cruelty - and obviously the wee fellow's mouth is too sore for you to touch it. How a dog of 4 can have such a bad mouth I really do not know.


[Just a thought make sure you are very careful and institute a good dental regime for Flash, often that it is hereditary - it's probably mainly down to poor care but it's something to be aware of]


Mum looks TINY - from the coat loss it does look like she has had another litter, they do drop all their coat but her tail looks very sparse, maybe they should check her for thyroid? See what the vet thinks.


It's lovely that despite all the cruelty and neglect they still want human contact - Cavaliers are truly amazing.

Soushiruiuma is correct, lots of very small meals - literally a couple of spoonfuls at a time - otherwise you will make them ill. Your vet will be able to advise with that too.


The male sounds like he has patella problems - again the vet will be able to diagnose.

Tell them exactly what's happened - with any luck they will be sympathetic and might even keep the costs down a bit.




I'm sure Shannon doesn't want to ask but if anyone can help a bit by sending a bit of money towards their vet fees, I'm sure it would be very gratefully received - please PM her direct. Thank you.

*Pauline*
19th December 2010, 09:53 AM
Oh my goodness, they are in a state. Looks like you have everything covered, good job. I hope the vet sorts out those teeth soon, they look SO painful. Well done for getting them for free.

Ruth
19th December 2010, 04:51 PM
You deserve a medal as big as your heart for helping these two little ones. I hope everything goes well with their medicals and that they are not carrying anything. How can anyone treat any creature this way?

MurphysMummy
19th December 2010, 04:56 PM
Oh my goodness me, bless your heart for doing such an amazing thing in taking these lovely dogs on. My murphy was a pup farm rescue and he is left with just 4 teeth, but after a few months of tinned food,then mixed with dry, he is now on dry alltogether and manages fine. Hope these darlings get better :) and Murphy says thank you for the christmas card Flash, He loved it!!

ByFloSin
19th December 2010, 05:06 PM
So glad to see that you have got them out of that puppy mill.

Please let us know what the vet says about them. I am hoping that things will not be as bad as they look at the moment. I cringed when you talked about the smell in your car when you brought them home.

Karlin
19th December 2010, 05:46 PM
Very good advice above; totally agree with Nicki -- those are badly neglected dogs and I would contact animal welfare with those pictures. If the local group does nothing then send it to state level SPCA. They are shockingly underweight -- that is getting to verge on the borderline of where they may have had to be put down from starvation!! and would be susceptible to all kinds of illness due to weakness -- and their mouths would have been causing them a lot of pain.

The hopping you are seeing with the male could be a lot of things. It could indicate a bad knee (patella) which may require surgery if it is causing him to hop about. On the other hand, it may have been bad enough that it is just kind of locked now and little can be done. That kind of hopping unfortunately may also indicate SM. the fact that they don't like to be touched could also be SM–related discomfort–or it could just be that they aren't used to being handled. It is something that can be looked into further down the line, but a vet should be able to tell you about whether there is a patella problem.

I would suggest feeding them on puppy food as this has a lot of extra nutrition. you could also look for the recipe for satin balls–if you do a search on this site it will come up. These are used by a lot of breeders and dog people to put weight on to dogs that need it. But moderation would be the approach–lots of small meals. In a month or so they should be looking a lot better.

Those teeth will definitely need to be attended to. :(

When you are talking to your vet, you might see if they are willing to give you a rescue discount to care for these two. If your vet is not willing to do so, I would ring around. if you are going to re-homed them, then I would talk to the rescues you have spoken to or e-mail lucky star, as they can probably arrange to get them the care they need or a local rescue should at least be able to arrange a discount.

Great job on arguing her out of having you pay for them and getting them both back to your home. I could use someone with your ability as a helper with rescue over here! :D It can be very hard to get around such people. The idea of her expecting you to pay is just ludicrous. Given the state they are in, she is lucky she has not been raided and charged with animal cruelty. I would certainly report her, with photos, in order to give whatever other dog she decides to hang onto a decent chance. If other dogs are in similar shape, they all need urgent that care. :mad:

Margaret C
19th December 2010, 06:38 PM
What a wonderful result. You are to be congratulated on your negotiating skills and sheer persistence.

They are very lucky dogs that you are taking care of their future.

Well done indeed.

Karlin
19th December 2010, 06:52 PM
On barking -- I think this will reduce pretty quickly even if they were outside dogs. Right now they will just be really overstimulated byall the new things, by your own dogs and new people etc. It's great that you gave them their own quiet place they can go. Ian Dunbar has great advice for teaching dogs to stop barking–but really what you do is first teach them a cue that means to bark and then you can teach them the cue that means not to bark. He explains how to do this on his
Dog Star Daily website. But this is a longer-term project.

I would also introduce them to Kongs -- this might be a good way to feed their meals so that they get used to them. For a keep-busy activity (to stop barking!) you can take one and just wipe the inside with a little salmon oil or soft cheese to keep them busy, but not give them too much food. My trainer friend Tara told me recently that she takes a little piece of a pig's ear or cow's ear (the latter are less greasy) and wedges it inside a Kong so that the dog can't actually get it out. She says this keeps her dogs busy for hours!

Also on that first picture of the teeth -- I'd say most of that dark tartar can be scraped off and the front teeth should be okay. It's the side teeth that look really hopeless. :(

Soushiruiuma
19th December 2010, 08:30 PM
How could she possibly let them get into this state? I know none of the welfare organisations seemed interested, but I think you should send them those photos - that extreme lack of weight is cruelty - and obviously the wee fellow's mouth is too sore for you to touch it. How a dog of 4 can have such a bad mouth I really do not know.


It looks like he chewed on his cage because he had nothing else to eat. Those metal bars can really destroy teeth.

Blondiemonster
19th December 2010, 08:47 PM
Wow. Bless your heart. I am so happy to hear you got them out off there. They have such sweet faces. They are so lucky to have you! A really smart thing to point out the health issues in front of others! I didnt expect it to be THIS bad honestly...:mad::mad::mad: makes my blood boil. So happy these two get a second chance.

Sandrac
19th December 2010, 09:11 PM
Well done for getting both these poor dogs out of that situation. You are a truly wonderful person.:flwr:

sarahso
19th December 2010, 09:22 PM
the poor poor mites..

so glad that they are now with you. they can now start their journey to recovery and knowing the true kindness of an owner instead of being used & abused.

Zumie05
19th December 2010, 09:31 PM
So glad the breeder realized the condition of these dogs and agreed to surrender them. Those poor guys are really in bad condition, but what a heart you have for taking them in! Barking will be hard to break, that was the life they knew and probably all they really had to entertain themselves.

Traditional training is to ignore the barking, for these guys that might not even work. But try to focus a lot on the moments they are quiet, with lots of praise and treats. I think that will help them start to realize. Do they recognize praise and when you say good dog? If not they will be just like pups and have to learn what training is all together. Maybe start with things like sit, lay down, etc so they understand what makes you happy and what does not.

Do you plan to keep them?

lovecavaliers
19th December 2010, 09:32 PM
Just seeing this thread. THose poor babies, it makes me sad to see them in such poor condition. Thanks to you they now have a new lease on life.
Everyone has given such good advice. Please let us know what the vet says.
Finally, thank you again for doing such a good deed and helping two innocent cavaliers.

mhabca
19th December 2010, 10:24 PM
The poor things. They are in good hands now. The girl's face just melts my heart. If I saw her, I could never leave her.

Karlin
19th December 2010, 10:30 PM
It looks like he chewed on his cage because he had nothing else to eat. Those metal bars can really destroy teeth.


Good point; may well be it and why side teeth are so bad. :(

shell1805
19th December 2010, 10:39 PM
i have actual tears in my eyes reading this. those poor poor babies. how anyone can do this is beyond me. you have an amazing heart and strength to get those pups as well as getting her to surrender them to you. they are lucky to have found you. (im hugging bentley as i type this, the thought that something like this could have easily happened to him makes my heart sink into my stomach)

xx

*Pauline*
19th December 2010, 10:56 PM
I keep looking back to this thread and that first picture of those beautiful eyes looking up at you and I wonder what kind of a cold hearted person could have neglected them. Every time I see those faces I just want to scoop them up in my arms.

How are you getting on today?

Wagtails
19th December 2010, 11:26 PM
Like everyone else, I'm flabbergasted by the neglect and overwhelmed by your brilliance in rescuing them without filthy lucre changing hands.

Well done indeed - http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv97/Cavviewagtails/Animations/Goldstarspoog.gif and good luck. Do let us know how you are all getting on

Reptigirl
20th December 2010, 03:19 AM
WOW... I left today for 3 hours to do some shopping.. When I came home tonight I swear they are totally different dogs!!! When I came home they were SO excited to see me...When we went outside they were all over me! Even the little girl suddenly came out of her shell and was so happy! Wagging her tail and all! This is the first time I have seen her "happy". She has been so scared!

Overall today they have been a little better with the barking but they still have a long way to go. They don't seem motivated by food or treats. (TOTALLY opposite of Flash) Although I am happy to see one of them (probably the girl) munched on a healthy edibles bone while I was away. Also Flash understands the "Speak" & "Quiet" Command. It was really easy to train him but they may take a lot longer since they are not motivated by treats yet.

We have not had any "accidents" in the house or kennel. Both dogs are eating small meals and have had no tummy upset at the moment... I'm still doing slightly softened Natures Variety kibble, a little bit of IAMS canned puppy food, a little bit of salmon oil with Glucosamine and Chondroitin, a tiny bit of plain yogurt, and a supplement called PuppyCal (high calorie vitamin supplement).

Ran out today and got them each a sweater since they have such thin fur (especially the girl) Found these AWESOME sweaters on a clearance rack for $2.99!!! They were the last 2 as well! Here are some photo's from tonight.. Looking MUCH happier!

Checking out the fenced in area we created for them:
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w220/Skyz84/DSCN1636.jpg

Smelling the country air
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w220/Skyz84/DSCN1643.jpg

New coats
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w220/Skyz84/DSCN1637.jpg

Can we go inside, please?
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w220/Skyz84/DSCN1640.jpg

Sweet girl
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w220/Skyz84/DSCN1642.jpg

Such a wonderfully happy go lucky little guy
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w220/Skyz84/DSCN1653.jpg

Every time they come in from a potty break they rush into the kennel and noise the ground furiously like they are looking for something...
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w220/Skyz84/DSCN1646.jpg


Not sure if either of them will be staying here permanently but right now I'm focusing on getting them better. I know they will both be staying here for the next few weeks while they get better. I'm going to have them spayed/neutered as soon as they are up for it. I would love for 1 of them to work out here but we will see. I have a possible placement for the female with another Cavalier owner if needed. Trying to take this 1 day at a time for now.

Thinking of naming the boy Blitz (short for Blitzen.) I was planning on calling the girl Holly but it doesn't seem fitting. I think Minnie sounds better for her. She is SO tiny!!!! Going to give it a few more days for them to come around but I would like to start calling them SOMETHING!

Thank you to everyone for showing support! I'm so thankful for this forum!!!

Oh and 1 question: They both "snort" and LOT when they get really excited. I think its just the short nose thing... They both have much shorter muzzles then Flash so I think that might be why. Should I be worried? They don't have runny noses or anything. It only happens when they get excited.

Reptigirl
20th December 2010, 05:17 AM
Just weighted the new Cavaliers.
The girl is barely 9lbs.
The boy is a heavy 10lbs.

Then there is Flash... there 8 month old puppy who tips the scales at 13 1/2 lbs.

Daisy's Mom
20th December 2010, 06:27 AM
I think they are both really beautiful! And they look awesome in those cute coats!

As others have said, bless you for taking care of them. I know how stressful it can be trying to minimize your other dogs' exposure to anything these 2 might be carrying (and how much work that requires with the laundry, constant managing of areas, etc.) That was my biggest worry when I took in 2 dogs from a BYB. They weren't this thin, but the guy admitted to me that he never had them vaccinated for rabies but he said he did the other shots himself (yeah, right). They were crawling with fleas and reaked to high heaven. My biggest worry was that Daisy would catch something bad from them. Thank goodness nothing like that happened, and I'm sure it will work out that way for you, too. It sounds like you are doing a great job at being careful about all that.

They are both so little that they look like puppies. I think they are adorable and they look like they are really settling in to a life of love instead of misery. Good for you for rescuing them!

emmastewartliberty
20th December 2010, 11:12 AM
Well well well done, they look like wonderful little dogs, you are brilliant and I am so happy for you that they are getting to be friendly to you so quickly. I have a little rescue breeding bitch from a puppy mill here in ireland, since august and she still is very timid with us humans, but loves my other dogs.But she is between 8 and 10 yrs- depends which vet you ask! She has remained on the skinny side, but as she has a dodgy heart it 's a tricky one to get the balance right. If you have any tips of how to overcome her shyness with humans I'd be so grateful. I really really admire you for taking on two, they will repay you in bucketfuls of love and licks! All their Christmases have really come at once for these little lads. Thanks to you. cl*p

Kate H
20th December 2010, 12:27 PM
Thank you for rescuing these two - well done.

Not liking being picked up may not be because it is painful but because they are used to being grabbed and dumped on a lap or table to have nasty things done to them (tangles pulled out, nails trimmed, etc). When my ex-puppy mill Aled first arrived, he hated being picked up and just froze (he gazed at the sky and switched off - what I call his 'lying back and thinking of England' mode!). He's a lot better now that he knows he will be gently handled and given a cuddle and some treats.

The boy's awkward walking could be a disc problem or similar - this was the first symptom of Oliver's spondylosis. We're all awaiting the vet's report with interest!

Aled sends his special love (if he was human, he'd be organising a Puppy Farm Liberation Movement!) - it's so great to see him tearing round in the snow just enjoying being free to run. The ability of Cavaliers to recover mentally from bad treatment never ceases to amaze me.

Kate, Oliver and Aled

Karlin
20th December 2010, 02:57 PM
Great to see them and they are adorable in their coats! You are doing excellent work with them. :D Yes the snorting is most likely nothing to worry about -- lots of excitement right now for them and that often sets off he 'cavalier snort'.

Gosh they are tiny -- any good breeder would never breed such undersized cavaliers. It is just constantly infuriating what ignorant people do with dogs. Only imagine how many of their offspring are likely to be bred in turn. :(

Let us know how they get on -- I am sure a few of us would paypal some support over for vet bills to help these two out. I wouldn't say either would be ready for a neuter for a couple of months, given their state. I would do their teeth at the time of a neuter so they just get put under once (and chip them then, too! :) ). That is what I do generally.

Chamberlain
20th December 2010, 03:42 PM
They are sooo tiny! :(

They do have the sweetest faces, I am so happy to hear that they have you to take care of them! Their new collars and coats look so nice on them!

I also love the name "Minnie" for the female, it does suit her!

I can't wait for more updates! :hug:

Desrae
20th December 2010, 09:50 PM
Well done you! Thank you for helping these two poor craters out. It's amazing how they can transform in so little time, with a little love and comfort and food.:lotsaluv:

Karen and Ruby
21st December 2010, 01:21 AM
Ah Bless you!!

Just seeing this thread now and so so pleased you got these two out of there!!

Agree with karlin- try to wait a bit and get some weight on them before neutering. I ended up waiting 5 months with my little Charlie who i took on from a rescue home.
he was also underweight at the time and it has taken a very long time (just over a year) to get him to a good weight,
from 6.1kg on arrival to 8kg now

His coat is only just beginning to get 'Cavalier like' with his slippers only just appearing and he still has a baby face.
I think sometimes, unfortunately the damage done in early life when they should be doing the most growing and learning, stunts them in a way.

It took me about 6 weeks to wean Charlie on to dry food (all he ate was Webbox when he arrived) and I still struggle to groom him in certain places, he HATES it.

They are so so so lucky to have a guardian angel like you to find them :wggle:

jld
21st December 2010, 02:10 AM
Bless you...you are truly their angel, and such a special person.....:luv:

tara
21st December 2010, 02:42 AM
Thank you so much for helping these poor dogs! It sounds like they are going to just thrive under your care -- I love that they were so happy to see you come home today!

I would love to contribute to their care somehow. If you set up a paypal account (or whatever means you choose), please let us know! It takes a village to save the needy sometimes, so please let us help!!

Reptigirl
21st December 2010, 06:00 AM
Not liking being picked up may not be because it is painful but because they are used to being grabbed and dumped on a lap or table to have nasty things done to them (tangles pulled out, nails trimmed, etc). When my ex-puppy mill Aled first arrived, he hated being picked up and just froze (he gazed at the sky and switched off - what I call his 'lying back and thinking of England' mode!). He's a lot better now that he knows he will be gently handled and given a cuddle and some treats.


This is what I'm thinking. I have had to trim mats out of their fur and I'm treating there ears for mild infections and unlike most dogs who squirm to get away.. these guys both just freeze and go stiff! Neither will eat treats out of my hand yet so I just give them lots of cuddles.

The male actually showed interests in a squeaky toy today! He went and grabbed it and brought it back to me each time I tossed it. So happy to see that!!!

Both enjoyed playing outside today in our wonderfully nice weather.

Also I have not noticed the male's legs locking up like they did when I first got him. Could just be he is having a good day. Either way I'm happy for the moment.



As of right now they have clear eyes, clear noses, no coughing, no sneezing, no fever, no outward signs of pain. Just as Karlin said above my vet said she would prefer to do the spay/neuter at the same time as the teeth extractions/cleaning. My vet wants them to put on weight before they get spayed/neutered.

If anyone wants to contribute to the fund I have started putting together for them I would be so grateful! I didn't expect anyone to want to help out financially. I was hoping to sew some doggy jackets,walking vests and toys and put them up for auction to raise a little money but I have been SO busy. Between cleaning, sanitizing, showering, socializing, laundry, being a full time mom to a toddler & full time home maker I have not sat down to make anything. If anyone is willing to contribute anything you can send it to our paypal email address netrixtardis@gmail.com . I will try to make a list of expenses that go into them and any donations we get so I can let everyone know where we are at.

Here's a few more photos from tonight...
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w220/Skyz84/DSCN1674.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w220/Skyz84/DSCN1682.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w220/Skyz84/DSCN1688.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w220/Skyz84/DSCN1691.jpg

And best of all.. Here is a little video of the boy playing :razz:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLRy8VQLj18

team bella
21st December 2010, 09:03 AM
I'm always shocked at how cruel people can be at these farms, don't know why I'm always shocked but I am, they really are sub human!!

You have a heart of gold. What you've done for these two little darlings is just amazing. The video is just brilliant, they really are sweet little babies. How lucky they are to be with you for Chrismas. :lotsaluv:

Kate H
21st December 2010, 11:17 AM
Nothing nicer than watching deprived dogs coming back to life again and beginning to be Proper Cavaliers! Their ability to recover is always amazing. You're doing a great job, and I entirely support your actions over the insurance - what they need for the next fortnight (barring a crisis) is commonsense maintenance treatment to ears etc and lots of love, and you're giving them both in abundance.

Kate, Oliver and Aled

Margaret C
21st December 2010, 11:32 AM
Nothing nicer than watching deprived dogs coming back to life again and beginning to be Proper Cavaliers! Their ability to recover is always amazing. You're doing a great job, and I entirely support your actions over the insurance - what they need for the next fortnight (barring a crisis) is commonsense maintenance treatment to ears etc and lots of love, and you're giving them both in abundance.

Kate, Oliver and Aled

Lovely to see them in that video.

I agree with Kate. Waiting for the insurance to become valid is a sensible thing to do.

Wagtails
21st December 2010, 09:19 PM
Oh my - I can't believe these are the same dogs as in your first post! Isn't it amazing how waggy tailed they can be, even after all the neglect and awfulness. Cavaliers really are THE best dogs in the world, aren't they?

Well done for everything you have done for these Christmas angels......now, how can I emigrate to the States to adopt these sweethearts? icon_nwunsure

Brian M
21st December 2010, 10:19 PM
Hi

It is a truly wonderous thing you are doing ,do you have a paypal account were people may donate to help you help them .;)

Nicki
21st December 2010, 11:34 PM
Insurance is designed to be taken out IN CASE something goes wrong, it is not there to pick up bills when you are aware of ***or suspect*** that they may be issues.


It is fraud to mislead an insurance company, and you can be prosecuted.

Pat
22nd December 2010, 12:26 AM
On the subject of insurance, read all of the fine print on the company website and/or in the documents to see what their particular rules are. Here is what I did for the tiny girl (described in another thread) that I adopted last April:

Lissie was 1-3 years old when adopted off the street, and of course I had no medical history. I took her to my vet the day after she arrived and had an initial examination done which included a thorough physical exam (including auscultation) along with full blood chemistry profile and urinalysis. The bloodwork and UA results were normal, and she had no heart murmur. The vet could find no other problem other than luxated patella (about grade 1) in both knees. The blood chemistry testing was important to me because I wanted to rule out any underlying disease (such as kidney or liver) that might explain her very small size; however, that was not necessarily a requirement from the insurance company. I could have just gotten the initial examination done and that would have satisfied the requirement, as long as my vet didn't find some symptom that would cause her to recommend blood chemistry.

I phoned the insurance company that I selected (PetPlan) and enrolled her, and I told them her history (or lack of) and the results of her initial exam and testing. There was only a very short waiting period - it may have only been 24 or 48 hours. The only pre-existing condition for her was the luxated patellae. If I make a claim in the future, they will go back and ask for copies of all of the vet records including that initial exam which had to take place within the previous year of date of enrollment. Now they don't tell you all of this automatically when you enroll a dog - you must either read all of the fine print or ask questions directly of a customer service rep when you enroll a dog.

The rules for PetPlan are that the dog must have been examined by a vet in the previous year before enrollment. If you make a claim, the company will contact the vet to make sure this exam/visit is on record. If there is no record of the initial exam (especially for an adult dog), ANYTHING wrong will be considered a pre-existing condition since you have no vet records on file. So, the key is that the dog must have a record of a vet exam within the previous year. Other companies probably have some similar type of rule, but the point is that you have to have some history on the dog before a claim will be paid. You might want to contact the previous owner and see if there are vet records on file somewhere that the insurance company can access in the event you make any claims.

I'm probably going to drop Lissie's insurance upon renewal next Spring or I might keep it for one more year. My experience with my dogs is that it is almost always cheaper in the long run to be self-insured. I was just nervous in this case since Lissie was a young dog with absolutely no history, not even from a previous owner.

Pat

Karlin
22nd December 2010, 01:01 AM
If you make a claim, the company will contact the vet to make sure this exam/visit is on record. If there is no record of the initial exam (especially for an adult dog), ANYTHING wrong will be considered a pre-existing condition since you have no vet records on file. So, the key is that the dog must have a record of a vet exam within the previous year. Other companies probably have some similar type of rule, but the point is that you have to have some history on the dog before a claim will be paid.

Pat, thank you for this very important point!!!

This is a critical clarification and I am sure holds for other insurance companies -- they would have no viable business model if they took on a dog with no medical background and then insure anything that shows up. I agree that it makes sense for owners to make sure they ARE covered for as much as possible -- eg get a thorough initial exam by one's vet -- or why bother with insurance? Small print is often overooked (my insurance premium now arrives on a DVD!!! Evidence of how huge and complicated the small print is... :rolleyes:).

If cost of covering potential health problems is a real issue, I'd really suggest contacting Lucky Star to take on one or both dogs as they will help sort the medical costs and rehome. Taking on rescues can be really challenging financially -- and there's a point at which anyone involved needs to make an honest appraisal about what they can manage. It isn't fair to dogs or people to go in over one's head. If there's already one dog at home with a serious and potentially costly health issue, that needs to be weighed against the ability to take on another dog or two, and that in turn set against what happens if one or both end up with the same issues as their offspring, or other health problems?

I also agree that for many people, saving the cost of premiums into a personal savings account for the dogs for anything that comes up, may well work out cheaper than insurance if you have multiple dogs. I think insurance makes sense if you have one or two dogs and/or also want the security of having anything covered; or to make sure you can cover something at the time you need it done. I have found the deductible (amount you need to pay before cover kicks in) has made insurance fairly meaningless for all but one of my gang. I dropped insurance for my cats years ago and have never had a serious problem with them -- if I'd insured them all, I'd have paid out over to 5000 just for the cats! Nothing they have needed done would have been claimable, as is. But it is a gamble too -- it may be that one cat will need serious care that costs 5k and I'd be even. If it greatly exceeds that cost, or two of them have serious and costly problems, then I am out of pocket. But the statistical likelihood is that they won't.

Reptigirl
22nd December 2010, 01:17 AM
When I enrolled the dogs into the insurance I told them both dogs came to me as rescues and I had no idea of any medical history. The only information I was provided with was the breeder who had self vaccinated them. They told me no records were needed as they have many people who find dogs off the streets and then enroll them. They told me that the only things that would be considered "pre-exiting" would be anything that happens in the waiting period OR anything that the vet notes as existing prior to the end of the waiting period. There are several exclusions under the policy as teeth extractions, dental care, conditions due to breeding..etc... will follow up on this more as we are on our way out the door...

Karlin
22nd December 2010, 02:51 AM
I would check on this. You cannot leave the dogs very long without a vet visit and I would be surprised if any insurance company would cover dogs 'blind' like this (there tend to be lots of exceptions...). Mine required a vet once-over OR would consider problems pre-existing. They can also dispute claims as being obviously pre-existig conditions -- eg a strong heart murmur, SM, etc picked up on early vet visits as these are progressive conditions. In addition very few insurance plans actually cover genetic conditions like MVD and SM. Only PetPlan and one or two others in the US. I would not even consider insurance from a company that doesn't take genetic conditions.

I do not advise anyone to do anything which could be perceived as fraudulent. It is better to do things by the book -- or if that brings financial concerns, to place rescues with an organisation that can shoulder any unexpected costs that cannot be covered. These are tough decisions. :flwr:

Pat
22nd December 2010, 03:44 AM
As I said, I just went through this - adopted an adult dog off the street obviously with no medical records and insured her two days later with PetPlan. I will tell you that I had to question VERY closely to get the info about the need for the initial vet visit to establish condition of dog upon adoption IF I were to expect an early claim for an illness to be covered. The customer service rep did not want to tell me this until I pressed him about what the process was if I made an early claim. As Karlin said, a lot depends upon the nature of the claim. If it was an accident, for example, there would likely be no problem. If it was a dog with a grade III murmur with a claim made within months (for example) of new ownership, it would clearly be something that was pre-existing and I feel certain that the claim would be denied.

I had the choice of turning Lissie over to rescue or keeping her. I took her to the vet the next day after she arrived and had a very thorough physical exam done plus full blood chemistry and urinalysis. One reason I did that was to help me make the decision about whether or not I would keep her or turn her over to rescue. I wanted to know what initial costs I would likely incur. I'm not saying that I would have turned her over to rescue had I discovered a serious problem, but I am a big believer in making decisions with full knowledge of all relevant facts. This is another reason that I think rescue groups should always do a thorough work-up with all dogs before placement so that they can give full disclosure to adopting families. If I had done a private placement for Lissie (without going through a rescue group), I would still have done a full workup before placing her.

Many vets give discounts for rescues. My own vet does not charge any fee for an initial evaluation of a dog coming into rescue. The blood chemistry charge was only $130, and I had to do that anyway within a few months of her being spayed, so that cost was going to happen regardless. I now feel very confident that any problem that may come up (other than patellae) will be covered as I have very carefully established a health baseline for Lissie.

Eight months after adopting her, I am feeling optimistic about her future. There have been no symptoms of SM - even subtle. Any dog that roughhouses and wrestles as many hours a day as she does with "her" kitty I think is unlikely to be dealing presently with any kind of chronic pain issues. I've never seen her scratch, face rub, bunny hop, scoot, or exhibit any of the other potential signs. She has had follow up visits with the vet and was spayed and had a dental three months after she arrived. I don't have a crystal ball to see years into the future and she is after all still a young dog, but she appears to be a pretty healthy Cavalier - and this is why I will likely drop her insurance at renewal next year. I've already dropped the insurance for my 8 year old when his premium went up 30% last month at renewal. He is heart clear, symptomless for SM, and I never made an insurance claim for him. No point in throwing good money after bad, esp. after I calculated what I would pay out in premiums for him for the next 6 years - almost $10,000. (Sorry about the digression, but I am rather skeptical about the merits of pet insurance at the moment.)

Pat

lovecavaliers
22nd December 2010, 05:41 AM
I have pet insurance through Trupanion which is great, but required a vet exam within the 30 day wait period. Def. double/triple check with your company. I know how expensive it can be, I would be in debt with all of Jack's expenses if it werent for the insurance. I hope it works out for you and those two cuties. They really do look great!

anniemac
22nd December 2010, 06:46 AM
They are so cute and You have done such a great job! No wonder you are tired :)

I asked my insurance teacher in a class and he said pet insurance is the same as a Christmas fund. I think it depends on what the plan is. Give it time because there is a wait period. Vets will work with rescues but of long term, then it should be something to think about.

I disagree with my teacher b/c I wish I had pet plan instead of my insurance that does not cover SM. I advise anyone getting a Cavalier to get insurance that covers inheritary conditions.

Pet plan (unlike mine) is great for when a problem arises. My friends had MRI and surgery help with pet plan. Me nada and I wish I got it before. Mine does more wellness and if accidents happen.

Anyway, be careful because no matter what, they will look into things. Seemed really easy when I switched from VPI to pet plan for a day. Cancelled same day and a day later Ella got bit by dog. Glad for that.

If you are trying to help with vet bills to take care of these beauties then personally it would be better to not go pet insurance especially if rehoming.

I can't believe what all good You have done and getting them out is huge. Send those pictures because that is terrible.

You have done great work so far and more than anyone could do. Bless you. You have done the hardest most grateful thing for them and if financially, emotionally hard, there are rescue groups like lucky star that would be able to help (I hope)

Thank you for giving these two a better life. So sad to look at the state they were in

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

anniemac
22nd December 2010, 06:52 AM
I would also like to add it takes great courage and dedication to fight for their lives. That is truly admirable :)

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

anniemac
22nd December 2010, 02:46 PM
I vote on the name Minnie :thmbsup:

Holly
22nd December 2010, 03:39 PM
Cute dogs! So glad they are out of that miserable situation.

We have taken in a couple of dogs with that flaky skin and sparse hair like the girl's and it ended up being a Staph infection. You may want the vet to check on that. It was treated with antibiotics and a medicated shampoo from the vet.

Reptigirl
24th December 2010, 08:39 AM
Just wanted to post an update:

Both dogs are doing WONDERFUL!!!!

The girl:
She is still shy and spends a lot of time at the back of the crate.. she is coming around though. She was missing fur all over her back and hind legs BUT I'm very proud to say she has fuzz EVERYWHERE she was missing fur!!!! Going to take a long time for her to look like a Cavalier and not a rat terrier but its a start! She also no longer has any dandruff!
Her ears are no longer red or greasy. I'm still watching them though. I Trimmed the mats away from her inner ear so its gets some air plus I'm using ear treatment on it.
She also seems to be at a better weight already. Probably can still add a little more but overall a much better weight!
I have been using a little bit of a plague remover for dogs in the water bowl. Tonight I noticed her teeth look a lot better. She has started to chew a little on edible bones and favors dry dog food. It looks like she only needs 1 or 2 teeth pulled. (Lucky Girl)
Her main bad habit is she will pee on any blankets outside of the kennel. Which is then followed by the male peeing on top of it. As long as keep blankets up outside the kennel she does not potty anywhere on the tile floor.

The boy:
Oh, he is SUCH a love! He has the SWEETEST personality! He reminds me a lot of Flash. I truly believe he was someone's pet before. He let me bath him, blow dry him and he sat on the floor without anyone holding him to let me trim all of his nails. He always has a look of true happiness on his face! If I have to place him he will be a Hard one to let go. I'm already attached to him.
His coat has softened up so much. He really feels like a cavalier now. He still has a lot of yellow stains on his leg feathers, belly and tail that wont come out but that is trivial. His ears looked normal after just 2 treatments of ear drops. He is eating well and the belly band that fit him when he came here is gonna be too tight here soon. (Gotta start sewing more ASAP as that is the biggest one I have.) He still needs another pound or two at LEAST to be near an ideal weight. His ribs still stick out but not as bad.
His bad habits... He barks at cats. Every time he so much as SEES a cat from across the room he goes off. I'm sure this is going to take a LOT of reconditioning if it is possible at all. He occasionally will mark if I leave the belly band off but he is overall pretty good. I have been using it a LOT less then when I first brought him home. He mainly will only pee if the female pees first.

Also there barking has almost stopped. They only time they bark now is if the male sees a cat or if they want to come inside.

I have not really started any kind of "training" with them. Just lots of praise for everything they do right. Both are just starting to take treats out of my hand. Really focusing on getting the girl to come out of the crate and sit with me since she is so shy.

Well I must go and get some sleep. I hope everyone has a Merry Christmas and I will update more later as time allows.

Reptigirl
24th December 2010, 08:40 AM
BTW: I stuck with the original name Holly for the girl and Blitz (Short for Blitzen) for the boy =)

Reptigirl
24th December 2010, 10:00 AM
One more question:

Flash has very straight fur and it appears the mom will have straight fur as well. But Blitz has VERY VERY dense tight curly fur. No matter how much I brush him it still curls up into tight little curls. It actually makes him appear bigger then he really is.

I know there is the condition with the dry eyes and curly coat. Is this something i should be worried about and watching out for? When he first came home the whites of his eyes were red. Also when I saw him for the first time they were red. But now they are white and seem normal. Don't look dry or anything. Is there anything else I should look out for?

Just thought I would ask as it crossed my mind while I was spending time with them tonight.

Bet
24th December 2010, 10:17 AM
One more question:

Flash has very straight fur and it appears the mom will have straight fur as well. But Blitz has VERY VERY dense tight curly fur. No matter how much I brush him it still curls up into tight little curls. It actually makes him appear bigger then he really is.

I know there is the condition with the dry eyes and curly coat. Is this something i should be worried about and watching out for? When he first came home the whites of his eyes were red. Also when I saw him for the first time they were red. But now they are white and seem normal. Don't look dry or anything. Is there anything else I should look out for?

Just thought I would ask as it crossed my mind while I was spending time with them tonight.


WELL THE RESCUES ARE HERE.

It is Great what you have done for these wee Cavaliers.

Merry Christmas to you and your 4 Legged Friends .

Bet

*Pauline*
24th December 2010, 10:52 AM
Looking at your video, Dylan's fur is much worse than Blitz. His fur was long silky and straight/fluffy and then went VERY curly/wavy on his back after his back was shaved for a spinal tap and he went on SM meds. It makes him look huge but he is only 7kilos. I think many things can turn the fur this way.

Ruth
24th December 2010, 07:27 PM
It's amazing what a tiny amount of affection and good treatment can do. They both sound as though they are doing really well and in such a short amount of time too it bodes well for their futures.

The first rescue I took in years ago had skin like an elephant, she was a black and tan and had no hair at all on her back end and the skin was grey and wrinkled. Three months later she was a different dog and I think as well as food it is a general feeling of just being loved that helps their wellbeing.

I wouldn't worry about the boy's coat, some of the dogs can be very curly, his eyes look fine and he already looks such a happy boy. You are doing a marvellous job.

Karlin
25th December 2010, 05:24 PM
They are doing so well! Great job. :flwr: Echo others -- coat sounds normal. There's a huge range in coats even amongst siblings/offspring.

Desrae
25th December 2010, 11:59 PM
This is such great news. After reading about some cruelty cases from local animal shelters (and on Christmas), it warms the heart to see these two little cuties are in good hands safe and loved.

Zumie05
26th December 2010, 06:06 AM
Wow I cannot believe how quickly they are recovering! It honestly has not been too long and already they sound like they are almost at an ideal weight. You are so fantastic :) Its going to be hard to let either of them go in the end I think.