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Sabby
10th January 2011, 04:05 PM
I am at the vets again this afternoon with Harley because of his ears.
He is 2 Ĺ years old. In his first year he had an ear infection twice. Mind you I would not call it an ear infection, it’s just a lot of wax. He got eardrops and that was that. Last year he had it at the staring of the year and then in June again and the vet said that he had a lot of debris in both ears and he could see something close to his eardrum. He syringed Harleys ears under antistatic and when I picked Harley up from the vets he also told me that he had an perforated eardrum. Well everything was ok until now (only 6 month on) He is scratching his ears a bit and occasionally shakes his head. His ears are not smelly, it just looks like a bit of wax again. I was going to ask the vet to take a sample, but if the ears are not smelly would it be bacterial? Could anybody advise me on what to ask the vet?

Nicki
10th January 2011, 05:02 PM
Normally with waxy ears I'd suggest trying Thornit powder - I know the vets don't like it but that is because people use way too much and clog the ear with powder. You have be careful about bathing them or them swimming within a few days of treatment too.

I pour it into a pot, use a blusher brush [from a make up kit] tap it off and then apply around the ear.

However IF THERE IS ANY RISK OF A PERFORATED EARDRUM AGAIN I WOULD NOT USE IT.


You could try some management techniques - basically you want to get more air flow into the ear - so when he is asleep, flop the ear flap backwards so the canal is open to the air. You can also put a human hair band on him, flop his ears back and tuck them under that. You would need to be around to supervise him though [don't leave it on him unattended]

Try to avoid his ears getting wet - don't allow him into the water when out for walks and if you do bath him, dry the ears carefully - I would avoid bathing him for now if you can. When you do bath him, make sure you put a piece of cotton wool in his ear to stop the water getting in.


You might also want to look at his diet, over eating can cause problems.

The other thing to consider is his environment, is it warm and damp? At this time of year we are tempted to dry washing on radiators etc, and that creates a damp environment - not healthy for dogs or people.


Sorry not trying to be critical, just trying to think of possibilities for you...

If you compare him with your other dogs, you might find that his ear canal is narrower - I have seen quite a variation in my dogs - some are very open and have few if any problems, others have very narrow canals and seem to have frequent issues.

I'm sure you know this, but never use a cotton bud to clean his ears, this can force the wax in further and compact it.

Let us know how you get on.

Charlifarley
10th January 2011, 05:58 PM
In humans, a build up of ear wax can be due to a deficiency in Omega 3 oils. This probably applies to dogs too. Would you consider giving Harley a fish oil - which would contain Omega 3 - as a supplement? This might help get rid of the problem for him. It would also be good for his coat.
I have been giving my two Kronch salmon oil, specifically to help Bosco's hair loss due to being on pred. I can definitely see a difference. I stopped a couple of weeks ago, and his coat has deteriorated again.
Downside is they tend to have slightly fishy breath :*gh:

Wagtails
10th January 2011, 07:10 PM
How did you get on at the vet, Sabby? So sorry to hear poor little Harley is still having these problems. Give him a big hug from the Worcestershire Waggershttp://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv97/Cavviewagtails/Animations/Hugsreflections.gif

Sabby
10th January 2011, 10:39 PM
Now I have calmed down a bit I tell you what happened at the vets.
I saw the same vet that syringed Harleys ears in June.
I donít really know where to start as when i think about it i just get angry again.

The vet was packed tonight, never seen it like it. Anyway went in to see the vet and told him about Harleys ears. The vet just smelled his ears and just looked not even using a scope. He said itís only a bit of wax. He ask the type of scratching and then said he might have SM. I nearly dropped dead. He started explaining about SM and that they scratch on the shoulder and i said that this is called air scratching and that I know all about SM. Then I said to the vet that I never heard of a dog with SM shake his head. I also mentioned that Harley suffers like this all the time. He asks that when he syringed Harleys ears if it made a difference and if it got better. I said, obviously otherwise I would have been back before today. He said that he couldnít see anything, but still gave him Canaural drops. He said well if they work you know itís not SM. You know what itís like everything happens so quickly and you only think of things when you get home. Last year another vet gave me the same drops for the second time and he told me that they might not help if you use them too often. How can the vet today say that if they work you know itís not SM? Also I ask him if it could be the same then the last time where Harley had a lot of debris in his ears, he said no. But how could he know he didnít even look into Harleys ears proper. The last time he only saw it using a scope.

First a lot of vets were not informed enough about SM, today I felt he tried to blame SM for an ear problem he canít be bothered to sort out properly. Of course I know that at any time one of my Cavaliers could show signs of SM. Trust me I 'm allways on the look out, sometimes even paranoid. And I hope and pray Harley has not go or ever will get SM. It's just that what ever he has gets better when treated and it's been like his for the last 2.5 years.

I was telling my friend and she said that I should phone in the morning and complain about being given drops for something that wasnít even diagnosed, and ask how he can tell that there is nothing wrong if he isnít even using a scope, and that I want to see another vet for a second opinion free of charge.

nicola
10th January 2011, 11:42 PM
Oh my goodness, that is just awful!! I would be hopping mad!! If that were me, I would probably take my dog to a completely new vet practice to be honest!

AgilityLola
11th January 2011, 12:36 AM
What a meanie :mad:

What anti-parasite treatment do you use? If you don't used advocate, he may have ear mites... Lola caught them when she was a pup from the local tabby cat :/ She had similar symptoms such as scratching, lots of ear wax, quite smelly ears and head shaking. She was prescribed some ear drops called 'otodex' which you don't have to get from the vets as it's not a prescription drug :)

Sabby
11th January 2011, 12:44 AM
What a meanie :mad:

What anti-parasite treatment do you use? If you don't used advocate, he may have ear mites... Lola caught them when she was a pup from the local tabby cat :/ She had similar symptoms such as scratching, lots of ear wax, quite smelly ears and head shaking. She was prescribed some ear drops called 'otodex' which you don't have to get from the vets as it's not a prescription drug :)

We use stronghold.
Its definitely not ear mites. I had ear mites in my other two and itís nothing like this. And his ears are not smelly.

Sabby
11th January 2011, 01:00 AM
Normally with waxy ears I'd suggest trying Thornit powder - I know the vets don't like it but that is because people use way too much and clog the ear with powder. You have be careful about bathing them or them swimming within a few days of treatment too.

I pour it into a pot, use a blusher brush [from a make up kit] tap it off and then apply around the ear.

However IF THERE IS ANY RISK OF A PERFORATED EARDRUM AGAIN I WOULD NOT USE IT.


You could try some management techniques - basically you want to get more air flow into the ear - so when he is asleep, flop the ear flap backwards so the canal is open to the air. You can also put a human hair band on him, flop his ears back and tuck them under that. You would need to be around to supervise him though [don't leave it on him unattended]

Try to avoid his ears getting wet - don't allow him into the water when out for walks and if you do bath him, dry the ears carefully - I would avoid bathing him for now if you can. When you do bath him, make sure you put a piece of cotton wool in his ear to stop the water getting in.


You might also want to look at his diet, over eating can cause problems.

The other thing to consider is his environment, is it warm and damp? At this time of year we are tempted to dry washing on radiators etc, and that creates a damp environment - not healthy for dogs or people.


Sorry not trying to be critical, just trying to think of possibilities for you...

If you compare him with your other dogs, you might find that his ear canal is narrower - I have seen quite a variation in my dogs - some are very open and have few if any problems, others have very narrow canals and seem to have frequent issues.

I'm sure you know this, but never use a cotton bud to clean his ears, this can force the wax in further and compact it.

Let us know how you get on.


Hi Nicki
Thank you for your lengthy reply.
I got Thornit, but I am always to scared to use it encase it clogs up their ears. Thanks for the tip I will try this on my other two. Does this little bit help?
Never let mine swim and I am very careful when giving them a shower. I make sure their head/ears never get wet.
Out of my three he got the least hair on his ears. My other two have beautiful long and full ears not Harley. But one thing his ear canal is a lot more narrow compared to Rosie & Ebony.

Charlifarley
Mine used to be on Kronch Oil for about 1 year and there was no difference.

Cathy Moon
11th January 2011, 01:33 AM
Sabby, what color is the wax and debris? Is it dark brownish?

Sabby
11th January 2011, 11:55 AM
Cathy
No its not dark brown, itís light.

Phoned the vets this morning to complain and talked to the practise manager as she has to authorise the free consultation. Well the vet said that he did look into Harleys ears (I know he didnít) and the notes state that he has a slight inflammation in his ear. (The vet never told me that he said that it was just a bit of wax) It also states that SM is highly unlikely. (Not what he said to me last night)
I can have a free consultation only with a certain vet. I am not going to bother as he is the worse one there. I m going to use the drops and if it happens yet again my friend suggested that I ask for a referral for a scan. Similar has happened to her and the vet said there is nothing wrong and when her dog was scanned they found the problem.

sins
11th January 2011, 12:30 PM
Hi Sabby,
I know exactly where you're coming from.
Daisy has a lot of trouble with her ears(apart from having SM)
She also has PSOM which was picked up on the scan.
Her right ear canal is much harder to access than her left to keep it clean so consequently thats the one we have trouble with.We've tried easotic and other ear treatments but none have worked for more than a few weeks at a time,she gets regular stronghold and she's pretty much an indoor dog now only wandering out for tolietting and back.
So my plan?
To get an ear cleaner and dislodge the wax.
Then try the thornits..
I think I've exhausted all other reasonable options.
Sins

Tania
11th January 2011, 01:04 PM
Hi Sabby, sorry you are having all of these problems. In your first post you mentioned the vet said he could see something close to the ear drum, was it anything or was it the perforation. I am not sure if I am off the mark here but have you considered psom at all. Treatment from your vet is disgraceful :mad:

nicola
11th January 2011, 03:22 PM
what is psom?

nicola
11th January 2011, 03:28 PM
Sorry have just googled psom so now know what it is!

Sabby
11th January 2011, 03:31 PM
what is psom?


Taken from the Health Section

The condition is similar to "glue ear" in human children, where a gluey, mucous plug forms in the middle ear and can cause hearing difficulty, up to total deafness but also, anything from mild discomfort expressed as scratching at the ears, to extreme pain including seizures and other neurological problems.

Tania
11th January 2011, 03:34 PM
It is a like Glue ear in humans. A mucus filled plug that fills the middle ear. There is a better description on page 56 www.cavaliermatters.org (http://www.cavaliermatters.org).
or for really indepth explanation visit http://www.cavalierhealth.org/psom.htm

Sabby
11th January 2011, 03:44 PM
Hi Sabby, sorry you are having all of these problems. In your first post you mentioned the vet said he could see something close to the ear drum, was it anything or was it the perforation. I am not sure if I am off the mark here but have you considered psom at all. Treatment from your vet is disgraceful :mad:


Hi Tania
In June the same vet examined Harley properly that time with a scope. He saw something close to the eardrum but couldnít tell what it was. He suggested having a look under anaesthetic. Thatís what he did back in June; he also syringed his ears at the same time. He told me that Harley had a lot of debris in both of his ears but couldnít tell me what it was. He said it was not recognisable. He also told me that he had one perforated eardrum. I actually posted on here back then voicing my concerns that I thought that the vet might perforated his ear drum while syringing the ears. People on here assured me that they didnít think the vet was responsible. I still have my doubts.
I got no doubts that this will come back again. If that happens I will ask for a referral to have an MRI Scan. At the moment I am organising for Ebony to have her heart checked and to have a Luxating patella operation, if I wouldnít have all that I would insist of Harley being scanned now.

Wagtails
11th January 2011, 05:53 PM
Sabby, I would seriously consider going to another vet if you can ask around and find a recommended one. Sounds like communications have more or less broken down with this one and there must be others where you live.

Do hope poor Harley will feel more comfortable very soon http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv97/Cavviewagtails/Animations/Heartblowingpoog.gif

AgilityLola
11th January 2011, 06:47 PM
Sabby, I would seriously consider going to another vet if you can ask around and find a recommended one. Sounds like communications have more or less broken down with this one and there must be others where you live.

Do hope poor Harley will feel more comfortable very soon http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv97/Cavviewagtails/Animations/Heartblowingpoog.gif

i work at Bell Brown and Bentley in LFE, which is probably quite near you. The head vet specialises in ear stuff and dermatology, he's called David Bentley. I would highly recommend seeing him as he always knows what's causing problems to do with ears and skin. :)

Tania
11th January 2011, 08:22 PM
Sabby, I would seriously consider going to another vet if you can ask around and find a recommended one. Sounds like communications have more or less broken down with this one and there must be others where you live.

Do hope poor Harley will feel more comfortable very soon http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv97/Cavviewagtails/Animations/Heartblowingpoog.gif


I agree

nicola
11th January 2011, 08:32 PM
I would definately go to a new vet!

Karlin
11th January 2011, 08:36 PM
Well, I'd probably try a different vet practice and get a second opinion. If the eardrum was perforated I'd want this checked again to see if it has healed. They may need to do a scan to see what is going on. It is possible that if the ear was waxy and dirty that some of this got into the inner ear where it could cause infection and pain. It could cause recurring infections I suppose if the drum healed with dirt inside. I took in a rescue dog with a permanent head tilt due to a perforated eardrum allowing infection from compacted wax -- left so long that the vet did not believe it could be corrected any longer. So getting a proper diagnosis is very important. A dog could also have an inner ear infection from other causes, and this would be hard to diagnose without a scan.

Some clarifications on some symptoms: dogs with SM can shake their heads in discomfort. They also will do this with PSOM. There are a huge range of different symptoms with SM and it's hard to list every one -- but Leo would shake his head from time to time. Jaspar does it a lot and has PSOM. More often though head shaking means mites or an ear infection -- often, mites.

Scratching at the shoulder isn't air scratching -- air scratching is when they hop along making scratching motions with a hind leg but not making any contact with the body. Generally the foot is well back and not very near the shoulder but often they kind of half twist to the right or left. It looks more like they are cranking their leg with most dogs. That is why it is also often called 'air guitar scratching' as it looks like the motion people make when playing air guitar.

Unfortunately any time you have persistent scratching, even if it comes and goes, you do need to keep SM in mind as a possibility -- so the vet was right there. He was also more or less right in saying that if something like Canaural stopped the issue quickly then the wax, head shaking etc was probably not likely to be due to SM (though obviously you cannot diagnose a dog with SM on the basis of Canaural -- you need an MRI. But if something does help that *isn't* something that would also help SM -- like a wide range of painkillers and allergy meds for example -- then it is certainly less likely to be SM).

So to be fair, he was giving you correct information. The issue I'd find fault with is that he didn't seem to give a proper examination which is what was paid for in the consult. As you are unhappy with some of the other vets, why not switch practices? :flwr:

Margaret C
11th January 2011, 08:43 PM
Poor Harley & poor you, such a worry.

If the symptoms continue then it may be worth thinking about a referral to someone that specialises in ear problems.

sunshinekisses
13th January 2011, 05:27 PM
I would be very angry at my vet and find a new one ASAP. Ears are not something I would want taken casually...they are painful when infected and if not treated correctly can lead to deafness.
My now passed Sunshine had a horrible ear infection that went on for two months. When my first vet suggested ear surgery we went to a second, but that vet recommended surgery as well. I went back to my first and explained my hesitation for surgery and he agree to try one more round of strong antibiotics. This treatment finally healed her ear and we avoided surgery. I just think everyone should take advantage of a second vet opinion from time to time, and sometimes a third or fourth.
Cavaliers heavy ears combined with any moisture can lead to ear problems.

Sabby
14th January 2011, 01:25 PM
:updte:

The drops are helping Harley. They did the last 3 times. If it happens again I will have to take it further.

Sandrac
14th January 2011, 02:53 PM
Please to hear the drops are working. Poor Harley, must have been so uncomfortable for him.