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View Full Version : I am so pleased to announce........



Margaret C
12th January 2011, 03:21 PM
Carol Fowler and I were asked to be on the Dog Breeding Advisory Council Expert Panel.


http://dogadvisorycouncil.org.uk/appointment-of-expert-panel/

nicola
12th January 2011, 03:28 PM
Wow, Margaret congratulations. You deserve this!!

Chamberlain
12th January 2011, 03:42 PM
:fool: Congratulations! :fool:

Tania
12th January 2011, 03:44 PM
Carol Fowler and I were asked to be on the Dog Breeding Advisory Council Expert Panel.


http://dogadvisorycouncil.org.uk/appointment-of-expert-panel/

Brilliant Margaret, you and Carol are the right people our dogs need cl*p

Ddavis
12th January 2011, 03:45 PM
Congratulations .... with you and Carol Fowler on the board, there is now hope for the future of our most beloved Cavaliers! cl*p

Wagtails
12th January 2011, 03:54 PM
Absolutely delighted to hear this, Margaret and Carol......our dogs in your (very capable) hands!

http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv97/Cavviewagtails/Animations/Dog%20animations/Waggydogtrio.gifhttp://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv97/Cavviewagtails/Animations/Dog%20animations/Waggydogtrio.gifhttp://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv97/Cavviewagtails/Animations/Dog%20animations/Waggydogtrio.gif

jasperpaw
12th January 2011, 04:22 PM
Congratulations Margaret - so pleased for you and Carol.cl*p

Charlifarley
12th January 2011, 05:45 PM
Wow! That is fantastic news, well done to both of you. Only the best are good enough!
:jmp::jmp:

Sandrac
12th January 2011, 05:47 PM
Margaret that is fantastic news - all yours and Carol's hard work is certainly making a difference.cl*p

*Pauline*
12th January 2011, 05:49 PM
Great news :-D Well done Margaret cl*p

merello
12th January 2011, 06:19 PM
Congratulations Margaret cl*p

sins
12th January 2011, 06:25 PM
Good luck to both you and Carol in your new roles.
Sins

*Pauline*
12th January 2011, 06:47 PM
Oh yes, Carol too, well done :-D cl*p

Bet
12th January 2011, 06:47 PM
Good luck to both you and Carol in your new roles.
Sins

I AM SO Pleased TO Announce....

This is Great News,Margaret and Carol, at Long Last the Cavaliers will have Lovers of the Cavalier Breed fighting their Corner for Them about the Health Problems that are Afflicting them,and now there will be no chance of SM and MVD in Cavaliers being Swept Under The Carpet as some Vociferous Cavalier Breeders want to Happen.

Bet

Karen and Ruby
12th January 2011, 07:32 PM
Oh now that is some great news for the new year!!

I cannot think of two people more dedicated and right for the job.

I think our Cavvies are in with a chance :o


WELL DONEcl*p

Jasperxxgabby
12th January 2011, 08:04 PM
Brilliant news :-D:-D:-D
Well done and good luck to you both cl*p

Brian M
12th January 2011, 08:46 PM
Hi


WOW

What superb news ,go sock it too them girls.:)

Jane P
12th January 2011, 08:55 PM
Brilliant!! Well done to you both.cl*pcl*pcl*pcl*pcl*pcl*p

Desrae
12th January 2011, 09:15 PM
YEAH!!:w**h**:
That's great news, you'll be fantastic representatives for all of us. Congratulations.

harleyfarley
12th January 2011, 09:18 PM
thats excellent news, cavaliers are in good hands and i know you will both do an excellent job

Reptigirl
13th January 2011, 12:42 AM
That's WONDERFUL news for the Cavalier Breed !!!! Congratulations!!!!!

:jmp2::jmp2::jmp2::jmp2::jmp2::jmp2::jmp2:

Karlin
13th January 2011, 02:13 AM
Great news; delighted you both will be there! :jmp:

Cathy Moon
13th January 2011, 02:56 AM
Well done Margaret and Carol! Congratulations! cl*pcl*pcl*pcl*pcl*pcl*p

tara
13th January 2011, 03:15 AM
Congratulations!!! Thank you for doing thiscl*p

Bet
13th January 2011, 11:11 AM
Congratulations!!! Thank you for doing thiscl*p

I AM SO PLEASED TO ANNOUNCE....

I see the Vitriolic Sniping has already Started from the Usual Quarters .

If I could be allowed to mention Dr B. Cattanach's name,he is included in the List as well.

He sadly had to walk away in disgust around 20 years ago because of the Abusive Comments he was Receiving from some Cavalier Breeders, he is a Geneticist and was trying at that time to help the UK CKCS CLUB along with Bruce Field who was the CLUB'S Health Representative with the Cavaliers' MVD Problem.

Finally ,I see my name is being dragged through the Mud again,I am so Ashamed of what I said in the past, but at that time I just could not Make Sense of the SM Problem in the Cavalier Breed , and UNWISELY I was also LISTENING to what I was being Told by Some Top Cavalier Breeders on the Phone about the SM Cavalier Problem, I have all this Noted , and when I read again what I was being told , I sure Realize how I was being Conned .

It's Great to know that Our Cherished Cavaliers have now Two Spokes-Women , Margaret and Carol, who Truely Love Cavaliers and are doing every-thing they can to give them the Chance of Healthier, Longer Lives.

Bet

AgilityLola
13th January 2011, 11:29 AM
WOW!!! contrats :jmp2::jmp2:

Bet
13th January 2011, 12:32 PM
I AM SO PLEASED TO ANNOUNCE....

I see the Vitriolic Sniping has already Started from the Usual Quarters .

If I could be allowed to mention Dr B. Cattanach's name,he is included in the List as well.

He sadly had to walk away in disgust around 20 years ago because of the Abusive Comments he was Receiving from some Cavalier Breeders, he is a Geneticist and was trying at that time to help the UK CKCS CLUB along with Bruce Field who was the CLUB'S Health Representative with the Cavaliers' MVD Problem.

Finally ,I see my name is being dragged through the Mud again,I am so Ashamed of what I said in the past, but at that time I just could not Make Sense of the SM Problem in the Cavalier Breed , and UNWISELY I was also LISTENING to what I was being Told by Some Top Cavalier Breeders on the Phone about the SM Cavalier Problem, I have all this Noted , and when I read again what I was being told , I sure Realize how I was being Conned .

It's Great to know that Our Cherished Cavaliers have now Two Spokes-Women , Margaret and Carol, who Truely Love Cavaliers and are doing every-thing they can to give them the Chance of Healthier, Longer Lives.

Bet

I AM SO PLEASED TO ANNOUNCE.....

Could I be Permitted to add to my Previous Post ,that Carol And I were Discussing how we Both Felt about our Cavaliers suffering from SM and MVD ,that we had had so Many ,Many Tears and Heart-Break because of this, and I SAID that at the Moment for other Pet Cavalier Owners not to be going through what we were going through seeing our Cavaliers suffering like they were and very Few Cavalier Breeders were Giving Two Hoots about those Two Serious Health Problems , it might be better if there were no Cavaliers to be making us feel like this.

Do those unfeeling Cavalier Breeders understand what it is like to take our Beloved Cavalier who we Dote On for the Journey to the Vet, that we know there will be No Return.

We had just lost 4 of our Cavaliers to MVD at 4-8 years and I was still feeling so upset, was Recovering from Breast Cancer ,now I am being Accused of Putting words which have been Taken Out Of Context into Carol's Mouth.

I Deeply Regret if that is the Meaning that I gave ,it was Me who said those Words .

Bet

Bet
13th January 2011, 01:05 PM
I AM SO PLEASED TO ANNOUNCE.....

Could I be Permitted to add to my Previous Post ,that Carol And I were Discussing how we Both Felt about our Cavaliers suffering from SM and MVD ,that we had had so Many ,Many Tears and Heart-Break because of this, and I SAID that at the Moment for other Pet Cavalier Owners not to be going through what we were going through seeing our Cavaliers suffering like they were and very Few Cavalier Breeders were Giving Two Hoots about those Two Serious Health Problems , it might be better if there were no Cavaliers to be making us feel like this.

Do those unfeeling Cavalier Breeders understand what it is like to take our Beloved Cavalier who we Dote On for the Journey to the Vet, that we know there will be No Return.

We had just lost 4 of our Cavaliers to MVD at 4-8 years and I was still feeling so upset, was Recovering from Breast Cancer ,now I am being Accused of Putting words which have been Taken Out Of Context into Carol's Mouth.

I Deeply Regret if that is the Meaning that I gave ,it was Me who said those Words .

Bet

I AM SO PLEASED TO ANNOUNCE .....

As a Follow Up to my Previous Posts , and I am so sorry this has Developed after the Wonderful News about Margaret and Carol now being involved with the Dog Advisory Council,but I have Spoken on the Phone with Dogstoday Magazine,and they will be Printing that it was Me who said that it was a Pity that Cavaliers were around to be causing so much Heart-Ache and Tears and perhaps it would be better if there was no Cavalier Breed.

I take full Responsibility for putting Words in Carol's Mouth .

Bet

Margaret C
13th January 2011, 02:13 PM
I AM SO PLEASED TO ANNOUNCE .....

As a Follow Up to my Previous Posts , and I am so sorry this has Developed after the Wonderful News about Margaret and Carol now being involved with the Dog Advisory Council,but I have Spoken on the Phone with Dogstoday Magazine,and they will be Printing that it was Me who said that it was a Pity that Cavaliers were around to be causing so much Heart-Ache and Tears and perhaps it would be better if there was no Cavalier Breed.

I take full Responsibility for putting Words in Carol's Mouth .

Bet

Bet,

Please do not worry, we all know that things are said in grief and emotion.
Many owners will say they will never have another cavalier when they see it suffering, but they often do, sometimes to regret that decision all over again.

I will say that if I believed that the majority of cavaliers were at risk of suffering the extreme bouts of pain that Monty experienced at the very end of his life, then I too would question whether it was right to let the breed continue.

I have written that last paragraph in the knowledge that parts of it will be taken out of context by certain breeders and quoted to show I plan to destroy the cavalier breed.

I think most rational observers of the cavalier world realise it is because we do not want to see the end of this wonderful breed of loving companions that we continue to raise awareness about SM & MVD.

Evelyn
13th January 2011, 03:10 PM
You love cavaliers and are striving to help them. Sometimes you have made mistakes. Nobody is perfect though some think they are ! You are to be admired for admitting you may have occasionally got it wrong.

Spangly
13th January 2011, 04:00 PM
I am delighted to hear this news Margaret, you and Carol are the perfect people to be on the panel. Congratulations!cl*p

Bet
13th January 2011, 06:59 PM
Bet,

Please do not worry, we all know that things are said in grief and emotion.
Many owners will say they will never have another cavalier when they see it suffering, but they often do, sometimes to regret that decision all over again.

I will say that if I believed that the majority of cavaliers were at risk of suffering the extreme bouts of pain that Monty experienced at the very end of his life, then I too would question whether it was right to let the breed continue.

I have written that last paragraph in the knowledge that parts of it will be taken out of context by certain breeders and quoted to show I plan to destroy the cavalier breed.

I think most rational observers of the cavalier world realise it is because we do not want to see the end of this wonderful breed of loving companions that we continue to raise awareness about SM & MVD.

I AM SO PLEASED TO ANNOUNCE......

Thanks Margaret and Evelyn for your Thoughts, what has Saddened me so much to-day, was the Vitriolic Abuse that was given to Carol through no fault of Her Own,but was caused by me ,when I said that other Cavalier Owners would not have to go through the Same Heart Ache as we did with the Health Problems in the Cavalier Breed if there were no Cavaliers.

I hope this will end the Abuse of Carol who has had no part in this.

I know I am Despised and Hated by Some Cavalier Breeders ,is the Nitty Gritty of this because I was told on the Phone when I was the Flavour of the Month with them, Confidences which if I now Mentioned would just about cause a Riot in the Dog World.

Now There's a Thought for a Blog!!!!!!

Are they Scared I might Reveal what I had been Told.!

Bet

Wagtails
13th January 2011, 07:16 PM
I think most rational observers of the cavalier world realise it is because we do not want to see the end of this wonderful breed of loving companions that we continue to raise awareness about SM & MVD.


http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv97/Cavviewagtails/Animations/Clappypooglarge.gif :xctly:

MadPip
13th January 2011, 07:31 PM
Great news Margaret and Carol :wggle:

Sabby
13th January 2011, 09:24 PM
Great News. There is some hope for the Cavaliers yet. :p

Bet
14th January 2011, 11:38 AM
I AM SO PLEASED TO ANNOUNCE......

Thanks Margaret and Evelyn for your Thoughts, what has Saddened me so much to-day, was the Vitriolic Abuse that was given to Carol through no fault of Her Own,but was caused by me ,when I said that other Cavalier Owners would not have to go through the Same Heart Ache as we did with the Health Problems in the Cavalier Breed if there were no Cavaliers.

I hope this will end the Abuse of Carol who has had no part in this.

I know I am Despised and Hated by Some Cavalier Breeders ,is the Nitty Gritty of this because I was told on the Phone when I was the Flavour of the Month with them, Confidences which if I now Mentioned would just about cause a Riot in the Dog World.

Now There's a Thought for a Blog!!!!!!

Are they Scared I might Reveal what I had been Told.!

Bet

I AM SO PLEASED TO ANNOUNCE.....

Can I be Allowed to say ,our Vet has just left ,having put Esmeralda our Pet Goat to Sleep, I am Heart Broken , but with all the Petty Bickering going on at the Moment amongst some of the Cavalier Top Breeders,what Empty ,Sad ,Pathetic Lives those Breeders must be Leading.

Bet

Karlin
14th January 2011, 12:38 PM
So sorry for your loss, Bet -- my cousin had goats and they are great personalities. :flwr: Maybe take some time out and try not to focus on what others say. It is better to look forward toward creating some positive change than on what others say.

Can we all now shift the focus here back to the main topic, discussion of the advisory council or the dog breeding council and related cavalier health, breed club or KC issues *generally*, rather than on discussions being held elsewhere, or others' personal attacks, please? It is just wasteful of people's time and energy and I do not wish to have this board serve as a place where discussions elsewhere are continued except in quite rare cases where there is a substantive issue (and I stress, this does not include personal attacks between individuals, please. If there is critical information that should be revealed, please PM me first before posting).

:thmbsup:

If anyone is thinking of making a critical comment about individuals or other boards please consider whether it falls into what I have said above and if you still feel it is of vital importance to post, PM me before posting it as otherwise, I will start placing people on moderation. There are times when I feel such comments MAY be justified but these are very special cases and most in the past have not fallen into what I would consider this category. Many thanks!

Bet
14th January 2011, 01:47 PM
So sorry for your loss, Bet -- my cousin had goats and they are great personalities. :flwr: Maybe take some time out and try not to focus on what others say. It is better to look forward toward creating some positive change than on what others say.

Can we all now shift the focus here back to the main topic, discussion of the advisory council or the dog breeding council and related cavalier health, breed club or KC issues *generally*, rather than on discussions being held elsewhere, or others' personal attacks, please? It is just wasteful of people's time and energy and I do not wish to have this board serve as a place where discussions elsewhere are continued except in quite rare cases where there is a substantive issue (and I stress, this does not include personal attacks between individuals, please. If there is critical information that should be revealed, please PM me first before posting).

:thmbsup:

If anyone is thinking of making a critical comment about individuals or other boards please consider whether it falls into what I have said above and if you still feel it is of vital importance to post, PM me before posting it as otherwise, I will start placing people on moderation. There are times when I feel such comments MAY be justified but these are very special cases and most in the past have not fallen into what I would consider this category. Many thanks!

I AM SO PLEASED TO ANNOUNCE .....

Karlin ,

I am so sorry that this Excellent Thread Deteriorated into what it did,but I am so Grateful to you for allowing me to get my Information across .

Carol and Margaret being involved with the Advisory Council is the Best Thing that could have happened for our Cavaliers.

Thank you as well about your kind Words about Esmeralda ,she was 17 years old, we have an Old Ewe Sheep we have given a Home to,she is 11 called Prescilla .she was Company for Esmeralda when her Brother Shaun died a couple of years ago,now we are looking foe another Sheep to keep Prescilla company,.

This is Life at Boat Road.

Fleek buried Esmeralda beside all our other 4 Legged Pets.

Bet

Karlin
14th January 2011, 01:59 PM
What a great name! I can imagine she will be greatly missed. :flwr:

meljoy
14th January 2011, 02:14 PM
Just reading this now.

Congratulations Margaret......there is a burning light at the end of a very dark tunnel now and the future of the breed looks set to improve with your wonderful insight
:jump:

Margaret C
14th January 2011, 02:57 PM
Thank you for the kind words.

I think Carol and I were able to demonstrate our concern for all dogs in general when we applied.

Carol has had me going up to London to meet MPs and chivied me into answering consultation papers for quite some time now. She is an amazing and very knowledgeable lady.

The Advisory Council was set up in response to Bateson and other reports on dog breeding. The Council will be looking at welfare issues affecting all dogs, registered and unregistered, so we will be considering all breeds ( and crossbreeds ) when we give our comments.

Puppy farms and status dogs have also been flagged up as concerns by the Chairman, Prof. Crispin.

Davecav
14th January 2011, 04:14 PM
I hope you both can work towards making a difference in the quality of life and environment of all breeds (cavaliers inc) A tall order I am sure:)
It would be a substantial achievement to prevent some of the worst breeding practices and raise public awareness of both health issues and appalling conditions of some establishments. Good Luck.

Karlin
15th January 2011, 01:09 AM
There is as I said above, a valid argument for clarifying gross misinformation being spread by some breeders, of course (and the rewriting of history by the usual select few... :rolleyes:). Given the ridiculous statements being made about Carol, claiming she has made incorrect statements about a crowd of noisy breeders arriving at the last Cavalier Club AGM having missed the entire hearts talk and some of the beginning of the meeting when a vote was taken on a health issue that initially passed then was rejected when the Koffee Klatch group finally decided they should attend their own AGM, i thought I might reprint the statement by their own club chairwoman at the time who made just such a point herself. Perhaps the ladies (and one or two men) might have their rusty memories jogged by this statement, which Mrs Jupp pointedly posted to the front page of the club website immediately following the AGM?


Before the AGM last Sunday, Simon Swift, Cardiologist, gave a talk to members to inform us of the present situation, current research and to update us on the new BVA/KC heart testing scheme that involves a number of breeds including cavaliers.

His talk was attended by about 25 members, including the committee, out of a current total UK membership of 1050. At the end of his talk Simon had difficulty in leaving the room for the throng of other members waiting outside for the AGM, chatting and drinking coffee, whiling away the time until his talk was over. So much for breeders’ interest in, and concern for heart problems within the breed.

The AGM then followed, attended by 63 members. The agenda contained a proposal from the committee that the Code of Ethics should include the recommended breeding guidelines for SM. These are not mandatory rules, merely recommendations, and would have been in line with Hearts and Eyes breeding guidelines, which have been in place for some years.

These proposals seemed to me to be innocuous and reasonable. However, the proposal was substantially defeated by the meeting. This was a triumph by the members present over neurologists and geneticists, and of course, over the committee. It would seem that cavalier club members continue to progress, like lemmings, towards mandatory breeding regulations that will surely come, as surely as night follows day. There are many members who are still not prepared to health check their breeding stock, and of those who do, it would appear that many would not hesitate to breed from affected animals. I have tried my utmost to defend and support the breed and the club. This weekend was proof, if proof is needed, that there is no point in deluding myself, or others, that self-regulation is possible.

Mrs Lesley Jupp, Chairman CKCS Club
24th March 2009


I know that will immediately set the matter straight -- that Carol is absolutely right.:thmbsup: I am glad lots of people are reading her excellent website, www.cavaliercampaign.com, as some, breeders included, still seem to have a dreadfully low awareness of the reality of SM and amazingly, after years of a breeding protocol and much research, MVD.

Bet
15th January 2011, 10:40 AM
There is as I said above, a valid argument for clarifying gross misinformation being spread by some breeders, of course (and the rewriting of history by the usual select few... :rolleyes:). Given the ridiculous statements being made about Carol, claiming she has made incorrect statements about a crowd of noisy breeders arriving at the last Cavalier Club AGM having missed the entire hearts talk and some of the beginning of the meeting when a vote was taken on a health issue that initially passed then was rejected when the Koffee Klatch group finally decided they should attend their own AGM, i thought I might reprint the statement by their own club chairwoman at the time who made just such a point herself. Perhaps the ladies (and one or two men) might have their rusty memories jogged by this statement, which Mrs Jupp pointedly posted to the front page of the club website immediately following the AGM?



I know that will immediately set the matter straight -- that Carol is absolutely right.:thmbsup: I am glad lots of people are reading her excellent website, www.cavaliercampaign.com, as some, breeders included, still seem to have a dreadfully low awareness of the reality of SM and amazingly, after years of a breeding protocol and much research, MVD.

I AM SO PLEASED TO ANNOUNCE......

Karlin ,

Thanks for your Post which completely Vindicates Carol.

Could I also mention what Mrs L.Jupp said on the CKCS CLUB WEB SITE after that same AGM and can still be seen on the Internet to-day.

"There are many Members who are still not Prepared to Health Check their Breeding Stock,and of those who do, it would Appear that Many would not Hesitate to Breed from Affected Stock"

What a Damming Statement for Cavalier Club Members to have Received.

Bet

wotton12000
15th January 2011, 10:50 AM
Thank you all so much for your kind comments. It makes all of the hard work so worthwhile when there are people who appreciate it.

I'm delighted and honoured to be associated with the the Advisory Council. The Council members themselves (of which there are eight) are all highly qualified people, and reading the draft Minutes of their first meeting on December 8 (available on the website), it's clear that the Council has got off to a flying start and really mean business.

I'd like also to say that the Associate Parliamentary Group for Animal Welfare (APGAW) are taking a keen interest in the dog breeding issues and will be assisting and monitoring the work of the Council. APGAW's Chairman, Neil Parish, MP, is keen that APGAW follow up on its report into dog breeding published in 2009.

Other influential organisations are involved in the reform of dog breeding as well - the RSPCA, British Veterinary Association (BVA), British Small Animal Veterinary Association (BSAVA), British Veterinary Association Animal Welfare Association (BVA AWF), Companion Animal Welfare Council (CAWC), Dogs Trust. And the standard Puppy Contract being produced by the RSPCA and BVA AWF hopefully will be accepted as a simple and practical way forward.

I think I should just make the point that Margaret and I are not in any way 'representing' the Cavalier breed on the expert panel. There are many other breeds which are suffering too and the Council must look at the bigger picture before it can focus down on specific breeds.

All of us who have had and love Cavaliers want the breed to survive. The official CMSM MRI screening scheme is an important step forward as will be the corresponding official Heart Testing scheme, and vitally important are EBVs, and the DNA research. I would also like to see a proper scientifically led outcross programme added as well because there is only so much you can do within a closed gene pool. It takes much longer to breed away from the problems if you stay within the current gene pool and its the dogs who suffer. The welfare of the dogs has to come before the notion of breed purity in my opinion. I think I am very much in a minority in saying that though.

Anyway, thank you again and I promise I will do my best for dogs and Cavaliers in particular.

Carol

Nicki
15th January 2011, 11:03 AM
I am so pleased to see that Margaret and Carol have both been appointed to the council, I think it is an excellent selection of people with varying backgrounds and interests, who should be able to provide solid advice from their experience and formulate a way forward.

Karlin
15th January 2011, 04:14 PM
There's a broad spectrum on the panel too. :) I know Carol has take a wide interest in pedigree issues generally, not only cavaliers, though of course cavaliers are the breed closest to her recent personal experience with genetic health issues. Margaret has also been involved with more breeds than cavaliers.

Critically, and I am sure this is what influenced the organisers in making these appointments, you have both been willing to stand up and work for breed health issues in reality -- not just as lip service -- and in doing so have become seasoned campaigners for better pedigree dog health.

There are many long-needed initiatives beginning to happen in the wake of Jemima Harrison's Pedigree Dogs Exposed, all of which offer some hope for healthier lives for pedigree dogs, and better breeding environments and practice.

I'm also proud we on this site have so overwhelmingly supported a better future for cavaliers by creating Rupert's Fund which has had so much international support -- with significant donations coming from the membership here in particular. Already, scans of older dogs enabled by this funding have given new and better insight into the development of this condition and should help to fine tune the genome work, too. :thnx:

anniemac
15th January 2011, 04:24 PM
Congratulations to both of you! Your dedication and devotion both in the public and personal to each owner who needs help and support makes me feel everyone is in good hands.

Thanks for being there personally for me as an owner of a beloved cavalier with SM and being a friend to me and a true friend of the breed

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Wagtails
16th January 2011, 03:24 PM
Puppy farms and status dogs have also been flagged up as concerns by the Chairman, Prof. Crispin.


I was so pleased to read this, Margaret. The plight of "status" or "designer" dogs is just getting more and more distressing. If you look at the type of crossbreed dogs which are regularly being advertised on the free internet sites it just breaks your heart. And the claims that are made about their health status are just unbelievable.

In fact, do you think your committee could tackle the whole subject of advertising live animals on these free internet sites? Personally I think they are single-handedly responsible for a very great number of the many ills facing dogdom today! :x


I would also like to see a proper scientifically led outcross programme added as well because there is only so much you can do within a closed gene pool. It takes much longer to breed away from the problems if you stay within the current gene pool and its the dogs who suffer. The welfare of the dogs has to come before the notion of breed purity in my opinion. I think I am very much in a minority in saying that though. Carol

Hear, hear, Carol :xctly: You may be in a minority, but I'm sure it's a growing and increasingly significant one!

I have a 3 year old Blenheim who might just be one of the "old-fashioned" type of Cavaliers (long muzzle, long legs, very energetic) but her temperament is the least Cavalier-like of any I have owned. What she DOES look like, and especially, ACT like, are those charming Kooikerhondjes from The Netherlands, which feature on the front cover and Fido Facts pages of the February 2011 issue of Dogs Today (http://www.dogstodaymagazine.co.uk/). I have always wondered if she didn't have a bit of "Kookyhound" in her somewhere, especially as she was bred in Leicestershire, which I gather is the stronghold of the Dutch breed in the UK.

I gather from the same source, that the Kooikers were down to their last 25 individuals after the Second World War though, and were "rescued from the brink of extinction" by one Baroness Von Ammerstal. Presumably this means a similar restricted gene pool to that experienced by our own Cavaliers? Which all goes to prove that the whole business of outcrossing need even more research than breeding pure pedigrees and should certainly NOT be left in the hands of the type of people who regularly advertise them on Preloved and the like! :(

Davecav
16th January 2011, 04:17 PM
I was so pleased to read this, Margaret. The plight of "status" or "designer" dogs is just getting more and more distressing. If you look at the type of crossbreed dogs which are regularly being advertised on the free internet sites it just breaks your heart. And the claims that are made about their health status are just unbelievable.

In fact, do you think your committee could tackle the whole subject of advertising live animals on these free internet sites? Personally I think they are single-handedly responsible for a very great number of the many ills facing dogdom today! :x



Hear, hear, Carol :xctly: You may be in a minority, but I'm sure it's a growing and increasingly significant one!

I have a 3 year old Blenheim who might just be one of the "old-fashioned" type of Cavaliers (long muzzle, long legs, very energetic) but her temperament is the least Cavalier-like of any I have owned. What she DOES look like, and especially, ACT like, are those charming Kooikerhondjes from The Netherlands, which feature on the front cover and Fido Facts pages of the February 2011 issue of Dogs Today (http://www.dogstodaymagazine.co.uk/). I have always wondered if she didn't have a bit of "Kookyhound" in her somewhere, especially as she was bred in Leicestershire, which I gather is the stronghold of the Dutch breed in the UK.

I gather from the same source, that the Kooikers were down to their last 25 individuals after the Second World War though, and were "rescued from the brink of extinction" by one Baroness Von Ammerstal. Presumably this means a similar restricted gene pool to that experienced by our own Cavaliers? Which all goes to prove that the whole business of outcrossing need even more research than breeding pure pedigrees and should certainly NOT be left in the hands of the type of people who regularly advertise them on Preloved and the like! :(

I really would not advocate using this breed to outcross a cavalier to as they have severe temperament problems!
In fact, having seen the outcome of designer crosses and resulting inherited problems, I am not in favour of going down this path at all. Any scientific (cross) breeding programme will cost considerable funds, it isn't just afew nice well meaning people having a few litters, it is a major committment over many years with all the pups from the litters monitored for health temperament and looks. Or are advocates of this type of programme not bothered that the results won't look or behave like a cavalier, in which case - it won't be a cavalier.

Margaret C
16th January 2011, 08:48 PM
I really would not advocate using this breed to outcross a cavalier to as they have severe temperament problems!
In fact, having seen the outcome of designer crosses and resulting inherited problems, I am not in favour of going down this path at all. Any scientific (cross) breeding programme will cost considerable funds, it isn't just afew nice well meaning people having a few litters, it is a major committment over many years with all the pups from the litters monitored for health temperament and looks. Or are advocates of this type of programme not bothered that the results won't look or behave like a cavalier, in which case - it won't be a cavalier.

Yes, it would cost a considerable amount of money and would, I imagine, need cooperation between cavalier clubs, Kennel Club, and geneticists.

Presumably the first thing need would be to identify the genes that cause CMSM and MVD and then choose a breed that does not have the same problem genes. It been done, but only with an identified single gene, to produce healthier Dalmations.

Genetic research really is such an important key to solving the health problems in cavaliers.

MelissaBach
17th January 2011, 05:58 AM
I am not active on the forum at all as I generally just lurk, but had to give a huge congratulations as well!! As a few of you know, I am completely in love with the breed, but haven't added a Cavalier to my home because of the health issues. I sincerely, truly, completely hope that the breed will see vast improvement in regards to health as I would really love to own a Cavalier someday.

Congrats Carol and Margaret! You have an army of support behind you!
Best,
Melissa

Bet
17th January 2011, 10:56 AM
I really would not advocate using this breed to outcross a cavalier to as they have severe temperament problems!
In fact, having seen the outcome of designer crosses and resulting inherited problems, I am not in favour of going down this path at all. Any scientific (cross) breeding programme will cost considerable funds, it isn't just afew nice well meaning people having a few litters, it is a major committment over many years with all the pups from the litters monitored for health temperament and looks. Or are advocates of this type of programme not bothered that the results won't look or behave like a cavalier, in which case - it won't be a cavalier.


I AM SO PLEASED TO ANNOUCE.....

Davecav,

I just feel I have got to reply to your Post.

The Cavalier Breed probably won't Survive for many more years because of their SM and MVD Health Problems.

I will give the Facts once more.

For SM.

85 Whelps Researched ,all had CM

60 Australian Breeding Cavaliers MRI Scanned , 50% had SM.

Now more Cavaliers have been found to have further Syrinxes Lower than their C5 Vertribrae.

This is a Very Worrying SM Prospect for our Cavaliers.


For MVD

50% of Cavaliers 5-6 years of Age have a Heart Murmur .

This is no better than it was 18 years ago.

Cardiologists are now saying that there are many Cavalier Carriers of the MVD Gene/Genes around to-day.

Even the Long Lived Cavaliers probably could be Carriers of the MVD Genes/Genes.

The Cavalier Breed is on the Brink of Distinction ,so some Drastic Measures have got to done to try and Save our Cherished Cavaliers.

Either Cross Breeding, ..

Or going to the Puppy Farms , or BYB'S, get some Cavaliers , have them Health Tested for SM and MVD, if Clear let them be used in Cavalier Breeding Programs.

The Cavalier Gene Pool has got to be Widened some-how.

The Show Cavaliers have such a Small Gene Pool ,and is this what could be causing a Health Problem for the Breed.

Much of the MVD DATA has come from Cavaliers taken at CKCS SHOWS.

As I said , if the Cavaliers' Health Problems are not Dealt with now, there likely won't be any Cavaliers left.

Finally ,in the Financial Crisis many Folk are having to-day, I don't think they will be wanting to buy a Cavalier and having to pay a lot of Money for Medication for them.

The Most Important Thing for Cavaliers ,is to save their Suffering and Pain from SM and MVD,that is the Wish of All of Us who Love the Cavalier Breed.

So what-ever Means have to be being used .

Let That Be Done.

Bet

rida
17th January 2011, 12:14 PM
Much of the MVD DATA has come from Cavaliers taken at CKCS SHOWS.


Bet

Can you tell me where you got that infomation from as I believe thats not true.

Davecav
17th January 2011, 12:49 PM
Bet
Any recommended action for the future of the breed will come from the experts (genetisists etc)

I stand by what I said in my post above. There is no point in a few well meaning people starting to outcross cavaliers with totally inappropriate breeds in the hope that this will solve the problem because it won't. Especially if a breed like the Kooikerhondje is used (even though it does look very slightly similar to the cavalier) Its temperament is so far removed from that of the cavalier as to render it completey unsuitable.

Karlin
17th January 2011, 02:34 PM
Can you tell me where you got that infomation from as I believe thats not true.

Actually I understand this to be the case for Simon Swift's (UK Club) data -- gathered over many years of doing auscultation at shows.

RodRussell
17th January 2011, 03:03 PM
Actually I understand this to be the case for Simon Swift's (UK Club) data -- gathered over many years of doing auscultation at shows.

This also has been true in the USA. Most statistics of heart murmurs, during the period beginning in the late 1980s, has been compiled from dogs examined at CKCSC,USA shows.

Rida, what is your understanding that contradicts this information?

Bet
17th January 2011, 07:22 PM
Can you tell me where you got that infomation from as I believe thats not true.

I AM SO PLEASED TO ANNOUNCE .....

rida,

Karlin and Rod have answered your Query.

Do you not believe that the Cavalier Breed is in very Serious Trouble because of the Health Problems it has?

Surely not.

The only Answer will be for all Cavalier Breeders , if our Breed is to be Saved, as I mentioned in my Previous Post, is to accept that the Cavaliers are just about an Extinct Breed,and for Goodness Sake be Big Enough to give all the Help the Researchers are needing for their Research.

Forget their Own Egos, and think for a Change about the Suffering of our Beloved Cavaliers.

At the moment ,till the Genes are found for SM and MVD are found, the only help for Cavaliers is from the EBV Scheme,but some Cavalier Breeders seem to be Determined not to want to Co-operate in the KC/BVA MRI Scanning Scheme with the Obstacles they are putting in the way of the Scheme ,and even as bad is how they are trying to Influence the Cavalier World with their Narrow Minded Views about the Problem of SM.

Bet

rida
17th January 2011, 08:31 PM
My understanding of this subject is that information didn't come from the Club heath days but from information that was gathered from Vets.

Margaret C
17th January 2011, 09:57 PM
My understanding of this subject is that information didn't come from the Club heath days but from information that was gathered from Vets.

In the UK it is possible for club members to take the Cavalier Club health forms to their vet, get their cavaliers' hearts checked, and then submit the forms to the Cavalier Club heart database.
These forms are only available through the Club. Vets do not hold them.

There are relatively few forms that are sent in that way, the bulk of the heart results come from heart testing sessions set up at shows or special health days.

There is no scheme that allows vets to feed in any cavalier heart testing results to cardiologists. The results that are submitted to the heart database are from owners that are connected with cavalier breed clubs.

rida
17th January 2011, 10:36 PM
Where in my post did you see any mention of Cavalier Club Health forms.

The result of the 50% of Cavalier having a heart murmur before they are 5 came from information that was collected from the general cavalier pet owning population that was diagnosed by there Vets and not infomation that was gathered from the forms that the members of the Cavalier Clubs.

That is what i had heard.

Margaret C
17th January 2011, 11:29 PM
Where in my post did you see any mention of Cavalier Club Health forms.

The result of the 50% of Cavalier having a heart murmur before they are 5 came from information that was collected from the general cavalier pet owning population that was diagnosed by there Vets and not infomation that was gathered from the forms that the members of the Cavalier Clubs.

That is what i had heard.

If you are talking about the UK, you heard wrong.

rida
17th January 2011, 11:58 PM
The results came from UK Vets

Margaret C
18th January 2011, 02:18 AM
The results came from UK Vets

Perhaps you would like to direct me to where you obtained that information? It will be a revelation to many interested people.

It is obviously from an unknown source of data that will be helpful when reports are compiled in the months to come.

Karlin
18th January 2011, 02:22 AM
Thank you for helping with the education of rida... :lol:

RodRussell
18th January 2011, 02:29 AM
Where in my post did you see any mention of Cavalier Club Health forms.

The result of the 50% of Cavalier having a heart murmur before they are 5 came from information that was collected from the general cavalier pet owning population that was diagnosed by there Vets and not infomation that was gathered from the forms that the members of the Cavalier Clubs.

That is what i had heard.

rida, either I am not understanding you, or what you have heard elsewhere was incorrect. By far, most of the statistics which show that over half of all cavaliers have MVD murmurs by their fifth birthdays has come from examinations conducted by cardiologists (at least in the USA) at cavalier health clinics. Most of these clinics are conducted at conformation shows, but some are "stand alone" clinics also sponsored by cavalier clubs.

One of the purposes of these clinics is to compile the statistics of onset of the murmurs. Another purpose is to inform the dogs' owners whether or not their dogs have murmurs, and if so, what the grades of those murmurs are. That is all that usually happens at these clinics. They are not designed to further diagnose the disorder or to prescribe treatment.

At most of these clinics, the form filled out by the cardiologist is at least a two-part carbon set, with one copy of the form being given to the dog's owner, and the other copy retained by the cardiologist for submission to the data-base (without identifying information as to the particular dog).

The owners do not have to be club members, as anyone usually may bring a cavalier to a club-sponsored clinic.

Karlin
18th January 2011, 02:41 AM
Given that Margaret was the health rep for many years for the UK and involved in fundraising for heart research -- I think she'd know the source of heart information:rolleyes: but of course any query directly to the club will get the same answer, or to Simon Swift.

Maybe you should have been listening to the people who actually know something rather than those who propagandise (eg us rather than some of your informants in 'Them'? as you put it elsewhere :D)

At the Uk club health days pet owners can also bring dogs; not sure if that info goes to the research statistics separately from the club member submitting s form as Marrgaret says. But anyone I know who has gone to heart events in the US or UK has said the majority testing dogs will be club members or people with dogs bred by club members.

Bet
18th January 2011, 10:34 AM
Perhaps you would like to direct me to where you obtained that information? It will be a revelation to many interested people.

It is obviously from an unknown source of data that will be helpful when reports are compiled in the months to come.


I AM SO PLEASED TO ANNOUNCE.....

rida,

Like Margaret , would you please tell us the Source where your Information has come from.

If you won't ,then it must be lies you are Spreading.

If you won't give the Facts to back up your Comments , can I say this is what is doing so much Damage to our Cavalier Breed by giving False Statements to the Cavalier Buying Public in Lulling Them into a False Security about how Very Serious the MVD Problem is Afflicting our Beloved Cavaliers ,and they won't feel they should be asking to see a Certificate from the Cavalier Breeders as to whether they are Health Testing and following the Breeding Guideline Recommendations given by the Researchers and the UK CKCS CLUB.

Is this what you are wanting?

Are you a Cardiologist ?

I sure await your answers with much Interest.

Bet

Kate H
18th January 2011, 12:24 PM
I think there is some confusion here. I'm sure that most vets in the UK (and probably in the US as well) are able to say 'Yes, from my own experience, 50% of Cavaliers will have a heart murmur before they are 5.' But the ordinary stethescopes used by local vets are not sensitive enough to pick up accurately the degree and seriousness of a murmur - only that a murmur exists and that it may be 'slight' or 'serious'. For accurate diagnosis and grading of murmurs, the specialist stethescope of a cardiologist is needed, and that is why the database and statistics are based on the club heart clinics, where the examination is done by a cardiologist, not on the less accurate experience of local GP vets. They can pick up that there is a murmur and that a dog of breeding age should not be bred from, but can't accurately pinpoint the level of murmur.

An example of this is my own Aled. When I first had him at 18 months, my vet picked up that he had a 'mild' heart murmur. I took him to be checked by Simon Swift at the club Ch. show a couple of months later, and he was graded 2. The following year Simon graded him 3, although my own vet had not picked up that his murmur had got worse. A grade 3 in a 3-year-old is a cause for vigilance, though Aled is so far very fit; it is a bit more than a 'mild' murmur. This is why the research data needs to be based on checking by a cardiologist; local vets can speak from their own experience but can't produce accurate enough data for research.

Kate, Oliver and Aled

Wagtails
24th January 2011, 03:15 PM
The Advisory Council was set up in response to Bateson and other reports on dog breeding. The Council will be looking at welfare issues affecting all dogs, registered and unregistered, so we will be considering all breeds ( and crossbreeds ) when we give our comments.

Puppy farms and status dogs have also been flagged up as concerns by the Chairman, Prof. Crispin.

Do hope this will be the sort of thing that The Advisory Council will take URGENT action to stamp out

http://www.preloved.co.uk/fuseaction-adverts.showadvert/index-1033387822/6c4a6926.html

Can you BELIEVE the price they are asking and the claims they are making about what the pups will look like?

Nicki
24th January 2011, 05:04 PM
Oh for goodness sake [that is the polite version :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:]


1000+ but sadly people will pay it for yet another designer mutt :(


No mention of any health testing for either breed I notice :(

anniemac
24th January 2011, 05:19 PM
rida, either I am not understanding you, or what you have heard elsewhere was incorrect. By far, most of the statistics which show that over half of all cavaliers have MVD murmurs by their fifth birthdays has come from examinations conducted by cardiologists (at least in the USA) at cavalier health clinics. Most of these clinics are conducted at conformation shows, but some are "stand alone" clinics also sponsored by cavalier clubs.

One of the purposes of these clinics is to compile the statistics of onset of the murmurs. Another purpose is to inform the dogs' owners whether or not their dogs have murmurs, and if so, what the grades of those murmurs are. That is all that usually happens at these clinics. They are not designed to further diagnose the disorder or to prescribe treatment.

At most of these clinics, the form filled out by the cardiologist is at least a two-part carbon set, with one copy of the form being given to the dog's owner, and the other copy retained by the cardiologist for submission to the data-base (without identifying information as to the particular dog).

The owners do not have to be club members, as anyone usually may bring a cavalier to a club-sponsored clinic.

I think what rod said is valuable information b/c there are health clinics and he has some listed for those in the usa on his website www.cavalierhealth.org. I think its important to have a cardiologist test the heart & people should take advantage (pet owners) of these clinics. As far as statistics etc. I don't known but from learning more and more, I would personally and will seek out some of these health clinics for ella. I think we all need to have an extra concern for the health of our dogs.


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anniemac
24th January 2011, 05:23 PM
A cavadoor? I don't think is very popular in the usa. Designer mixes are another issue all together.

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Karlin
24th January 2011, 09:38 PM
Oh,please. Cavadors? That's a backyard accidental litter. We had three cav/lab puppies here that were an accidental 'surprise' in Thelly's first foster! They grew up to look exactly like labradors -- great dogs, but hardly a 'designer cross'. You can help save the life of a lab cross at every pound and shelter in any country you go to, and for free, rather than bring more puppies into the world when so many get put down. These people are ridiculous, not to mention putting the mother's life at risk trying to pass puppies from a far larger breed, if the mother is the cavalier. :mad: They will all run the risk of lab health issues and/or cavalier heath issues.

Karlin
24th January 2011, 09:48 PM
And as for size -- they are not 'smaller versions of labradors', they are nearly the size of a full grown labrador. Maybe an inch or two shorter -- these are BIG bouncy lab-like dogs and whatever fools are willing to pay that amount for their 'little labradors' will be in for quite a surprise. They are not a popular cross at all in the US either -- I have never even heard of anyone deliberately coming up with such a cross. :sl*p:

This is how big they are -- Ginger's puppies as adults!! Lovely girls, but so much for little small labradors!!! :rolleyes:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3025/2707648130_34a7688aba.jpg

Davecav
25th January 2011, 12:28 AM
To be honest (and I love dogs) but they look like any heinz 57 you could see in any run down area!
Again;a bit of a bee in my bonnet about crossing breeds, but crossing the temperament of a labrador with a cavalier - Uh Uh!