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View Full Version : Pedigree Dogs Exposed should have been made in USA



RodRussell
21st January 2011, 02:24 AM
I know that many think that purebred breeding in the UK leaves a lot to be desired, but I think that Pedigree Dogs Exposed should have focused on USA purebreds. Taking the cavalier breed alone, when you compare what the UK cavalier club has been doing about MVD and CM/SM to what the USA's two national clubs are not doing -- or frankly, are lying about -- there really is no comparison.

Examples: The UK club actually has a "Cardiology Advisor", Simon Swift. Its website actually links to Dr. Rusbridge's website. Look at the UK club's home page alone; today I found FIFTEEN articles or links to health-related discussions on the club's home page! The UK club's website actually publishes both the MVD and the SM breeding protocols.

Over here, neither of the two national CKCS clubs publish either of the two real breeding protocols. For MVD, both clubs have contrived bogus, heavily watered-down breeding protocols, which researchers already have found have not worked.

The ACKCSC states: "Currently, the recommended practice is to wait until a Cavalier is two years old or older before the first breeding and to know the parents and ancestral cardiac status. Cavaliers with early onset presentations of MVD (before four years of age) should not be bred and breeders need to work with the guidance of their cardiologists."

The CKCSC,USA states: "The CKCSC,USA recommends that prior to breeding any Cavalier, the dog should have a heart clearance from an auscultation by a board certified veterinary cardiologist that is consistent with prevailing cardiology protocols; however, the CKCSC,USA recommends a minimum of a cardiology clearance at age 2.5 years by a board certified cardiologist."

So, essentially, the two USA clubs are recommending that their breeders continue breeding for early-onset MVD.

As for SM, neither USA club has acknowledged the existence of any breeding protocol. So, essentially, the two USA clubs also are recommending that their breeders continue breeding for SM.

The ACKCSC website's "health" pages gives more space to discussing how genetically sick mongrels are, compared to purebreds, or how so many other breeds also contract MVD and SM, that you would think the club hired a Madison Avenue marketing firm to write its genetic health content. Instead of accurately discussing CM/SM in the breed, it's SM article appears to have been written about SM in humans.

anniemac
21st January 2011, 03:50 AM
There actually are some really good articles especially on the ckcsc usa website. Whether people read them or take the advise is another issue. One talks about how the USA could learn from PDE. The ones I am referring to written by vets and not actual statements from the clubs. They really had some really good ideas.

Once you have the knowledge it is what you do with it.

I don't think SM is being stressed here and unfortunately was taken lightly and maybe they wouldn't if the public was more aware.

I think if PDE was made in the USA it would have to be different. I'm not sure about things in the UK but I would love to stress the importance of clubs and how just saying AKC registered means nothing about the health of the dog. With so much being said about people should never breed with all the dogs in our shelters, it should show how if we looked to breed clubs, they did what they should and have better enforcement, then I feel it could actually help.

There has to be some talk about being responsible with buying a dog or cavalier. Take the opera winfrey segment where she went behind puppy mills. People are responsible when you can sell cavaliers on ebay classified ads. and people actually buy them. You know no one actually visits these terrible places and so one has to think that someone is buying them. There will always be BYB but I would love something showing how buying a puppy on an impulse is not good either. Do homework.

I don't want to come off like others that say most cavaliers in the uk come from byb and mills as an excuse not to have better health practices, but we need to point out that these clubs have an extra responsibility and code of ethics that should be highlighted.

So much stigma to breed clubs and breeding in general in the usa so the general public should know that the actual clubs are the ones to look up to (if they actually did things to reduce health issues)

Show how with pedigree dogs we know can know breed specific health problems and work on helping reduce that. Make sense?


My problem is if we have research like MVD to help reduce a health condition but no one is doing what is recommended why was research even funded? You know they will say we give so much money towards health, well actually use what you are funding.

Research is important, clubs and breeders should actually do what was recommended, pet owners need to be aware of their part, and how we can move forward.

You might find the vet articles interesting.

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anniemac
21st January 2011, 04:56 AM
I'm talking about the article from dr. Hendricks on the acksc website where it mentions to speak up on importance. It also mentions CHIC which you are familiiar with. I think that part of her article is how we should have reacted. However nothing ever came of it or at least I never watched westminister but that is where she said it should be talked about when the public is watching.

Yes I think more health information should be on websites. I think you have to go to the uk club site to even pull cavaliers that have been scanned in the usa. As always correct me if I'm wrong on that too

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RodRussell
21st January 2011, 06:04 AM
I'm talking about the article from dr. Hendricks on the acksc website where it mentions to speak up on importance. It also mentions CHIC which you are familiiar with. I think that part of her article is how we should have reacted. However nothing ever came of it or at least I never watched westminister but that is where she said it should be talked about when the public is watching. ...

Dr. Hendricks, the dean of the University of Pennsylvania veterinary school, wrote that article to salvage research fund raising for her school, because one of her faculty, Professor James Serpell, appeared on the NBC Television morning program "Today" the day of the first broadcast of "Pedigree Dogs Exposed" in the USA, and said that inbreeding is the cause of many deformities in purebred dogs and that it leads to painful and crippling health conditions, and that inbreeding amounts to "institutional animal cruelty", and that "it can only get worse", and that something needs to be done to stop it.

During his appearance, the "Today" program showed disturbing clips from the documentary of a cavalier with SM, and with Dr. Rusbridge stating that SM "is like a size ten foot that's been shoved into a size six shoe, it doesn't fit." Clearly, the cavalier was the primary focus of the "Today" segment with Dr. Serpell. For almost five minutes, viewers got to watch a cavalier writhe in pain, along with shots of other cavaliers, while Dr. Serpell spoke about how cruel purebred breeders have been to their dogs.

This outraged officers of the ACKCSC, which at that time had a special relationship with the U. of Penn vet school through Gilbert S. Kahn, a cavalier breeder and a primary benefactor of both the ACKCSC and the U. of Penn vet school. The school's formal name is "The Gilbert S. Kahn School of Veterinary Medicine".

Dr. Hendricks, the dean of the vet school, sensing a deterioration of a financially beneficial relationship, wrote a letter which amounted to a slap at her fellow faculty member, Dr. Serpell, and a mealy-mouthed defense, of sorts, of purebred breeding (e.g., "Such negative emphasis and repeated mention of the term 'inbreeding' implied that purebred dogs are all closely bred. Implied, but not said, was the notion that mixed breed dogs are healthier.")

Interestingly, Dr. Hendricks concluded her defense of purebred breeding by stating:

"Here breeders and future owners can obtain information about the health test outcome of breeding animals. Be prepared, adopt real measures to monitor health problems and promote rational measures that prevent them, supported by science."

What she wrote here is precisely what the ACKCSC has refused to do. There is no information on its website which provides any valid information about the MVD or SM "health test outcome of breeding animals". Nor does the club's website demonstrate that the club is "prepared, adopt real measures to monitor health problems and promote rational measures that prevent them, supported by science." The club has done the precise opposite of that; it tries to keep everyone in the dark about the MVD and SM breeding protocols.

anniemac
21st January 2011, 06:33 AM
That last part was what I was talking about. Just because it is on the website doesn't mean anything is being done. Actually it is what is not being done even though there is some important things to point out that should be noted.

I think there have been some great things I have read about what to do with the information from vets, yet having the information and not doing anything is just words.

I can't remember everything but on other website there are other articles about reducing stigma etc. These things have helpful tips and is interesting reading, I just wish we did or will do what was stated.

I thought you would like the mention of CHIC :)

I have to google to find some of these articles and there once was a response on the other club website but it is now gone.



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anniemac
21st January 2011, 06:40 AM
That's interesting about the funding and name. At bottom I just noticed it below her name.

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anniemac
21st January 2011, 07:02 AM
I know I might be changing the topic but I think it is related in someway. I really like the article about removing the stigma of genetic disease by dr. Bell.

I think this is what should be done and focused on. Things need to go from gossip to constructive communication. It talks about denial etc.

I think these articles got it right. Whether it is to continue funding or not, the fact is we need research and what we learn can benefit breeds. Also to share information information and be open. I do feel that the breeders should communicate and work with researchers.

Overall it should be "a community effort" and to support genetic research.

Now this should be pointed out and not just additional reading but to help with what the goal is.

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Margaret C
22nd January 2011, 12:43 AM
I know that many think that purebred breeding in the UK leaves a lot to be desired, but I think that Pedigree Dogs Exposed should have focused on USA purebreds. Taking the cavalier breed alone, when you compare what the UK cavalier club has been doing about MVD and CM/SM to what the USA's two national clubs are not doing -- or frankly, are lying about -- there really is no comparison.

Examples: The UK club actually has a "Cardiology Advisor", Simon Swift. Its website actually links to Dr. Rusbridge's website. Look at the UK club's home page alone; today I found FIFTEEN articles or links to health-related discussions on the club's home page! The UK club's website actually publishes both the MVD and the SM breeding protocols.

Over here, neither of the two national CKCS clubs publish either of the two real breeding protocols. For MVD, both clubs have contrived bogus, heavily watered-down breeding protocols, which researchers already have found have not worked.



You can publish articles on websites, but if even club officers and committee members flout the protocols you have to draw the conclusion that there is a completely cynical agenda at work.

Today three young cavaliers won well at a championship show. They were sired by a stud dog who was first used when 9 months ( mated to a 14 month bitch ) & he will probably be a grandfather before he is two years old.

What if he has a heart problem? What if he has early onset SM to pass on to his descendants?

A CAVALIER SHOULD BE AT LEAST TWO AND A HALF YEARS OLD BEFORE BREEDING TO COMPLY WITH THE UK HEART PROTOCOLS.

It is because of breeders like this that the breed does not have any chance of having a healthy future.

They are totally and unbelievably selfish. They do not care about the dogs and they do not care about the people that buy them.

These unethical breedings are there for all to see in the Breed Record Supplement and I intend to keep highlighting them as they are published.

I am at the moment exploring the idea of setting up my own campaigning website. Perhaps a page featuring litters from underage parents could be incorporated into it?

lovecavaliers
22nd January 2011, 01:38 AM
A CAVALIER SHOULD BE AT LEAST TWO AND A HALF YEARS OLD BEFORE BREEDING TO COMPLY WITH THE UK HEART PROTOCOLS.

It is because of breeders like this that the breed does not have any chance of having a healthy future.

They are totally and unbelievably selfish. They do not care about the dogs and they do not care about the people that buy them.

I couldn't have said it better:thmbsup:
IMO US breeders are worse with following protocol.

Bet
22nd January 2011, 10:23 AM
You can publish articles on websites, but if even club officers and committee members flout the protocols you have to draw the conclusion that there is a completely cynical agenda at work.

Today three young cavaliers won well at a championship show. They were sired by a stud dog who was first used when 9 months ( mated to a 14 month bitch ) & he will probably be a grandfather before he is two years old.

What if he has a heart problem? What if he has early onset SM to pass on to his descendants?

A CAVALIER SHOULD BE AT LEAST TWO AND A HALF YEARS OLD BEFORE BREEDING TO COMPLY WITH THE UK HEART PROTOCOLS.

It is because of breeders like this that the breed does not have any chance of having a healthy future.

They are totally and unbelievably selfish. They do not care about the dogs and they do not care about the people that buy them.

These unethical breedings are there for all to see in the Breed Record Supplement and I intend to keep highlighting them as they are published.

I am at the moment exploring the idea of setting up my own campaigning website. Perhaps a page featuring litters from underage parents could be incorporated into it?

PEDIGREE DOGS SHOULD HAVE BEEN MADE IN USA

Margaret,

I have just read your Post ,I really believe now, that is what should be done to try and give our Cavaliers the chance of Healthier, Longer Lives.

I feel that we Lovers of our Beloved Cavaliers really cannot depend on the CKCS CLUB Committee to take the Urgent Action that needs to be being taken.

If I could add a thought , what about including the Names ,where there is Proof ,of a Cavalier who has been known to be Suffering from Heart Trouble and was being Bred from.

Bet

Margaret C
22nd January 2011, 03:31 PM
There are many classic phrases that breeders in denial use, such as "I have no problems in my line" ,"I have never seen/never bred an affected cavalier" ," it is not as bad as people make out".

Another classic from breeders that do not want results published was "my results are for my own breeding programme and nothing to do with any one else".

There is now going to be an official scheme for owners scanning their breeding cavaliers. All MRI scans done the same way to the same standard.The grades will be agreed by two experts using the same criteria. The results will be sent to researchers who will know that they are comparing like to like.

So a scheme that will provide really good quality research material, and for those looking for a stud dog or buying puppies the chance to see whether the individual breeders are testing and using graded dogs as they claim.

The ambivalent attitude displayed by some breeders, who declare there should be more research before such a scheme is put in place, but do not think that the responsibility for providing the research rests with them, is illustrated by just a few sentences written by one person in the last couple of weeks.............

"I would love a scheme in place that has a chance of working, based on proper research"

"With our Sm experts , we are usually taking healthy dogs showing no symptoms and paying extra for one to find something wrong."

"Lots more research is needed before any decisions are made, something is being missed here, and we could lose a lots a good lines."

"I will continue to scan, and use my results to decide if and when to breed. If I decide to pass results on for research that will be up to me."

Bet
22nd January 2011, 05:54 PM
There are many classic phrases that breeders in denial use, such as "I have no problems in my line" ,"I have never seen/never bred an affected cavalier" ," it is not as bad as people make out".

Another classic from breeders that do not want results published was "my results are for my own breeding programme and nothing to do with any one else".

There is now going to be an official scheme for owners scanning their breeding cavaliers. All MRI scans done the same way to the same standard.The grades will be agreed by two experts using the same criteria. The results will be sent to researchers who will know that they are comparing like to like.

So a scheme that will provide really good quality research material, and for those looking for a stud dog or buying puppies the chance to see whether the individual breeders are testing and using graded dogs as they claim.

The ambivalent attitude displayed by some breeders, who declare there should be more research before such a scheme is put in place, but do not think that the responsibility for providing the research rests with them, is illustrated by just a few sentences written by one person in the last couple of weeks.............

"I would love a scheme in place that has a chance of working, based on proper research"

"With our Sm experts , we are usually taking healthy dogs showing no symptoms and paying extra for one to find something wrong."

"Lots more research is needed before any decisions are made, something is being missed here, and we could lose a lots a good lines."

"I will continue to scan, and use my results to decide if and when to breed. If I decide to pass results on for research that will be up to me."


PEDIGREE DOGS EXPOSED SHOULD HAVE BEEN MADE IN USA

For me what caught my Eye from this Article on the CKCS CLUB WEB SITE,was that the Information on Results Published and available to any one buying a Cavalier Puppy,would know when the MRI Scan had taken place on the Puppy's Sire and Dam and at what age.

That this is all about Accessability of Information ,Openess and Transparency.

Bet

RodRussell
22nd January 2011, 06:00 PM
There are many classic phrases that breeders in denial use, such as "I have no problems in my line" ,"I have never seen/never bred an affected cavalier" ," it is not as bad as people make out". ...

There is a list of a TOP TEN excuses given by many cavalier breeders at http://www.cavalierhealth.org/breedersexcuses.htm

GraciesMom
22nd January 2011, 07:29 PM
who were sired at such a young age. That is SICK.... just sick. And they were allowed in a competitive show? gah! :bang:

anniemac
22nd January 2011, 10:28 PM
who were sired at such a young age. That is SICK.... just sick. And they were allowed in a competitive show? gah! :bang:

Rod will correct me but the mvd protocol is they can be breed at 2 1/2 IF both of the parents have been clear hearts at 5 and they have also had their heart checked by cardiologist. If they do not have parent information they need to wait until they are 5 and checked.

This is to help with MVD and was a protocol that was in place in the usa. You can read more on his website www.cavalierhealth.org. now the age is changed to 2 years instead of the recommended 2 1/2


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anniemac
22nd January 2011, 10:32 PM
who were sired at such a young age. That is SICK.... just sick. And they were allowed in a competitive show? gah! :bang:

They have a puppy category but I'm not sure how old the parents were. The protocol is recommended and should be followed and I'm sorry most people don't know more but that's why it is important to make sure to look at the puppy buying guide but unfortunately people learn more after.

I'm lucky ellas breeder did follow the protocol and they were 5 and 6 with clear hearts. I have to be honest I had no idea that was something good when I bought her.



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