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View Full Version : Question for margaret carter or anyone on dealing w/ mvd and cm/sm



anniemac
22nd January 2011, 08:27 PM
I keep trying to find where margaret posted something but I wanted to share how complex it must be to come up with a breeding scheme when dealing with 2 major health issues.

I think the more I try to understand the more questions I have but that is why it is so important because there is a huge responsibility for breeders especially when dealing with two health conditions so I want to ask about ella.

Ellas parents both had OFA certificates signed by cardiologist as normal at ages 5 and 6. I would assume that they have good hearts especially given the age of certification and having the results.

However, ella has severe SM. So I think that all these factors have to be known in order to try to have healthy offspring. You have one good trait but then you can't ignore the other. I know the breeder did not scan but they were older and if they did not show symptoms (at least the breeder would be familiar with girl) but the father well it doesn't matter but obviously something was passed on to ella.

So I think that anything someone comes up with is going to be hard and has to factor both in. So if I'm understanding correctly, is the reason breeders should be open to find the best qualities for a match?

There is so much genetics in breeding and I think in any breed no one could ever guarantee the health of a puppy. I find it unlikely to have never had a puppy from a litter with a health condition. So in my opinion if a breeder was open and said yes this has happened and I took these steps to try to decrease the risk of a condition but you should know there is always a chance that really is all they can do. Share health conditions and information so they can best try to find the best match.

I am a question person so I think it is always good to strive for improvements but right now this is what is given and it is extremely detailed. So like having puppies and not being able to say there is not risk, you probably should do what we do know and support research for continued advancements.

I thing nothing can be perfect and I know with research we find more questions, so if 5 years down the road if everyone supported research and something was found that would could be better, couldn't things be modified?

I would think that to question is to learn but you have to do what you can with what we have. There are so many different factors that it would be impossible to find a perfect solution besides something to eliminate a gene, I don't know. But we have to all support research and be able to have certain information available.

I do know her parents have good hearts so if one did not have SM, what a good candidate for another.

Am I understanding correctly? That is why it is so important to wait until they are older or at least 2 1/2 years?
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Bet
23rd January 2011, 10:19 AM
I keep trying to find where margaret posted something but I wanted to share how complex it must be to come up with a breeding scheme when dealing with 2 major health issues.

I think the more I try to understand the more questions I have but that is why it is so important because there is a huge responsibility for breeders especially when dealing with two health conditions so I want to ask about ella.

Ellas parents both had OFA certificates signed by cardiologist as normal at ages 5 and 6. I would assume that they have good hearts especially given the age of certification and having the results.

However, ella has severe SM. So I think that all these factors have to be known in order to try to have healthy offspring. You have one good trait but then you can't ignore the other. I know the breeder did not scan but they were older and if they did not show symptoms (at least the breeder would be familiar with girl) but the father well it doesn't matter but obviously something was passed on to ella.

So I think that anything someone comes up with is going to be hard and has to factor both in. So if I'm understanding correctly, is the reason breeders should be open to find the best qualities for a match?

There is so much genetics in breeding and I think in any breed no one could ever guarantee the health of a puppy. I find it unlikely to have never had a puppy from a litter with a health condition. So in my opinion if a breeder was open and said yes this has happened and I took these steps to try to decrease the risk of a condition but you should know there is always a chance that really is all they can do. Share health conditions and information so they can best try to find the best match.

I am a question person so I think it is always good to strive for improvements but right now this is what is given and it is extremely detailed. So like having puppies and not being able to say there is not risk, you probably should do what we do know and support research for continued advancements.

I thing nothing can be perfect and I know with research we find more questions, so if 5 years down the road if everyone supported research and something was found that would could be better, couldn't things be modified?

I would think that to question is to learn but you have to do what you can with what we have. There are so many different factors that it would be impossible to find a perfect solution besides something to eliminate a gene, I don't know. But we have to all support research and be able to have certain information available.

I do know her parents have good hearts so if one did not have SM, what a good candidate for another.

Am I understanding correctly? That is why it is so important to wait until they are older or at least 2 1/2 years?
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QUESTION FOR MARGARET CARTER or ANYONE DEALING w/MVDand CM/SM

anniemac,

You sure have got to the Root of the Problem that is facing our Cavalier Breed to-day.

It is Afflicted both by MVD and CM/SM

I have distressing news for you.

The Cardiologists now mention that many Cavaliers could be Carriers of the MVD Genes, what is worse
the Mode of Inheritance is not yet known.

With SM,it could be going the same way.

To put it Bluntly Our Cavaliers are in a Mess .

The $64,000 Question is ,will it Survive .

The Truth is Nobody Knows.

I believe that the only Hope of the Breed's Survival is ,for it to be Salvaged, Cavalier Breeders must follow the Breeding Guideline Recommendations, in-fact I would put it Stronger than this ,Remove the Word Recommendations for the WORD ....REQUIREMENTS.

Do NOT Breed from a Cavalier before 2.5 years of Age.

If then, the Cavalier has no Sign of MVD and SM, and the Parents at 5 years of Age do not have those Conditions , then Breed from The Cavalier.

The Cavalier Breed is Living in Desperate Times in it's History to-day, if it is to Survive ,Desperate Measures have to be being Taken .

Have a Register for all to see as Margaret has suggested ,that Cavalier Breeders are following the Cavalier Breeding Guidelines, tell the Cavalier Buying Public, DO NOT BUY A CAVALIER FROM A CAVALIER BREEDER WHO IS NOT DOING THIS.

Bet

Margaret C
23rd January 2011, 06:17 PM
Anne,

You ask a lot of questions in one long post & I'm not always sure just what you are asking, but I will do my best to answer


I keep trying to find where margaret posted something but I wanted to share how complex it must be to come up with a breeding scheme when dealing with 2 major health issues.

I think the more I try to understand the more questions I have but that is why it is so important because there is a huge responsibility for breeders especially when dealing with two health conditions so I want to ask about ella.

Ellas parents both had OFA certificates signed by cardiologist as normal at ages 5 and 6. I would assume that they have good hearts especially given the age of certification and having the results.

Remember I am in the UK, so I can only write with any great knowledge about the health protocols as they are here, but certainly Ella's parents would be good prospects for breeding if they are clear of heart murmur when over 5 years old.

You are right in thinking it is difficult to devise a breeding scheme for a breed with two serious inherited problems that may not show up until the dogs have produced puppies.

The solution is complex, but I will try and explain as simply as possible. In the UK our Kennel Club is funding work on a scheme that will allow breeders to match up their breeding cavalier with one that is not so likely to have the same family weakness.
A female from a family that has strong hearts, but a lot of SM sufferers, can be matched to a male that has a lot of family members scanned without SM but other relatives that developed early heart murmurs.



However, ella has severe SM. So I think that all these factors have to be known in order to try to have healthy offspring. You have one good trait but then you can't ignore the other. I know the breeder did not scan but they were older and if they did not show symptoms (at least the breeder would be familiar with girl) but the father well it doesn't matter but obviously something was passed on to ella

So I think that anything someone comes up with is going to be hard and has to factor both in. So if I'm understanding correctly, is the reason breeders should be open to find the best qualities for a match?.


Yes, the scheme which is to find the Estimated Breed Values ( EBV), needs information on the heart and SM status of all cavaliers to build up a health picture of each cavalier and their family.



There is so much genetics in breeding and I think in any breed no one could ever guarantee the health of a puppy. I find it unlikely to have never had a puppy from a litter with a health condition. So in my opinion if a breeder was open and said yes this has happened and I took these steps to try to decrease the risk of a condition but you should know there is always a chance that really is all they can do. Share health conditions and information so they can best try to find the best match. .


It is impossible to guarantee the health of every puppy, even the most careful, health testing breeder will find that after years of breeding only from the best dogs they still can get a puppy with health problems. That should not, however be an excuse for not trying.

As you say, breeders should share information and aim to give every puppy whelped the best chance possible of a healthy life.


I am a question person so I think it is always good to strive for improvements but right now this is what is given and it is extremely detailed. So like having puppies and not being able to say there is not risk, you probably should do what we do know and support research for continued advancements..

People that argue that there is not enough research to justify putting in place standardised MRI schemes and EBV schemes need to say how the information they demand can otherwise be obtained?

There has always been a bit of a chicken & egg situation with SM.
From the beginning the KC and many breeders demanded that accurate figures of affected dogs were provided before they would support the idea of MRI scanning schemes.
Why did the researchers need the scanning to be done? To provide an accurate figures of SM affected dogs for their critics!


I thing nothing can be perfect and I know with research we find more questions, so if 5 years down the road if everyone supported research and something was found that would could be better, couldn't things be modified?.

Well to most people that would be commonsense, but with some cavalier breeders this brings another classic accusation that the researchers are "changing the goalposts".

Nobody complains about new findings in human medicine, when research shows progress and recommendations change, most sections of the community would rejoice in the progress.

But then I suppose there is not a vested interest in hiding genetic problems in human families.


I would think that to question is to learn but you have to do what you can with what we have. There are so many different factors that it would be impossible to find a perfect solution besides something to eliminate a gene, I don't know. But we have to all support research and be able to have certain information available..

The researchers are working on gene identification, but to help that project cell tissue needs to be donated to the Canadian Geneticists via Clare Rusbridge & Penny Knowler.



I do know her parents have good hearts so if one did not have SM, what a good candidate for another.

Am I understanding correctly? That is why it is so important to wait until they are older or at least 2 1/2 years?
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Both SM & MVD can show up at any age. If a cavalier gets either condition before they are 2.5 years old it is called early onset & parent dogs with early onset SM or MVD have a greater chance of passing that early illness on to their puppies.
Although there is no chance of completely eradicating these conditions, it may be possible to breed so that cavaliers do not get the early onset, but develop the illness later in life.

A dog dying of heart disease at 11 is a tragedy, but not as terrible as one dropping dead from heart failure when 7 years old.

A dog unable to jump on a chair at 10 is sad, but one screaming in pain, while still a puppy, is a disgrace to the whole of the cavalier world if we do nothing to change what is happening.

anniemac
23rd January 2011, 10:33 PM
Thanks margaret for answering those questions!

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