PDA

View Full Version : Cavalier rescue having seizures what to do



anniemac
23rd January 2011, 03:57 AM
me because he is having seizures twice a week, said he shakes his head, also will scratch at ears.

Not familiar with seizures but obviously something is going on.

I was going to see if ellas neurologist would help a rescue but what would one guess this could be?

She mentioned some medication I never heard of phospher something.



Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Cathy Moon
23rd January 2011, 03:26 PM
I feel very strongly that the rescue needs to take him to a neurologist who is familiar with cavalier health issues, and they need to follow through with the neurologist's recommendations. I'm saying this because two rescues mistook our rescue ckcs Charlie's pain episodes as being seizures, and it is horrendous to think how much pain he experienced.

If there is not enough money in the rescue budget, they could do a fund-raiser on the ckcs-usa rescue website. This is what the Ohio ckcs-usa rescue did for one of their puppies who required heart surgery recently.

Pat
23rd January 2011, 04:50 PM
Agree 100% with Cathy!

Pat

anniemac
23rd January 2011, 06:30 PM
Thank you!
Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Cathy Moon
23rd January 2011, 07:24 PM
If she does a fundraiser on the CKCS-USA Cavalier Rescue site, please let us know. I will watch for it on facebook too.

Karlin
24th January 2011, 12:48 AM
I am sorry but these are serious signs of a serious problem -- how can they wait and do a fundraiser without treating a dog having seizures? :bang: I hope I am wrong and at least the seizures are being treated in some way. And are these actually seizures? have they looked at the video of the worst-affected cavalier (the video used in Pedigree Dogs exposed) I have on my SMcavalier.com website?

These kinds of issues are central to rescue -- sometimes they need to consider what is best for this dog if it is suffering. And whether they can possibly find a home for such a dog if these are advanced pain sessions -- not seizures -- from SM. There is debate as to whether SM dogs have seizures per se. I think hydrocephalus is more likely to cause seizures (if they are not due to epilepsy).

Making informed decisions about such cases is going to be the future of rescue, so any breed rescue really needs to familiarise themselves with video of SM and EFS dogs and maybe get a talk from a neurologist and then determine a basic protocol for dealing with mild to severely affected SM cavaliers -- they are going to be seeing them come into rescue and need to be able to make a call.

If I had a cavalier come in with serious SM symptoms I would let that dog have its wings, unless someone within rescue themselves will give that dog a permanent home as it is too much to ask the general public to do especially anyone who has not cared for a dog with SM -- it is hard to understand how difficult it can be. If this rescue dog is having the level of pain of the dog in the video, the kindest thing would be to euthenise the dog (as the one in the video was not long after -- my understanding is that dog went undiagnosed for ages because people thought it was having seizures :( ).

Not all will agree but I cannot imagine how breed rescue would pay for surgery or find an informed owner willing to take on the lifetime costs of the expensive medications a severe case dog would need. And such a dog cannot wait around for weeks of fundraising -- they need to see an expert right away. Agree 100% with Cathy that this needs to be done NOW. Are they REALLY saying regional rescue have no funds?!? Even me -- a one person rescue in a tiny country with the population of just the greater San Diego area-- could cover the costs of a trip to a neurologist for a sick dog for a clinical evaluation. :sl*p: Surely professionals will also give a discount to club rescue! I get 30% off costs from all whom I work with.

Breed rescue also should really be talking to medical professionals about serious problems like this -- why are they not talking to vets and at least by phone to a neurologist? Why not approach LIVS or one of the many research centres offering discount scans to cavalier breeders? Surely they should at least get some informed advice.

Soushiruiuma
24th January 2011, 02:39 AM
I am sorry but these are serious signs of a serious problem -- how can they wait and do a fundraiser without treating a dog having seizures?

I worked with a rescue where the vets would allow larger charges to be paid off over time. So we treated the animal, then fundraised to pay the bill. Maybe this would be that sort of set up.

On the other hand often this same rescue treated animals who were really beyond help, and after extensive care were put down. It is very hard to fundraise when this happens because people donating often ask how the animal is doing, and hearing that it didn't survive, and we are paying off the debt gives people a really weird feeling.

Love my Cavaliers
24th January 2011, 04:02 AM
Karlin asked "Are they actually seizures?" It's a really great question. I thought Riley was having many small seizures a week - which was what prompted her initial visit to the neurologist. Her neurologist told me they were not seizures, but vestibular events related to the damage caused to her vestibular system by her SM. Without an in-depth assessment by the neruologist, I would still be calling them mini-seizures. Everyone else who sees her in the midst of one, calls them a seizure. Only a neurologist call tell you for sure. This poor little rescue needs an in-depth neurological assessment.

anniemac
24th January 2011, 04:09 AM
I need to get more information of have her talk to someone

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

anniemac
24th January 2011, 04:13 AM
The first step would be to see a neurologist but it was Saturday and I am going to see if what neurologist in my area (either ellas) but probably nc state vet will help with a rescue.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

anniemac
24th January 2011, 04:16 AM
He is only 2 1/2 but they need to first understand what is going on


Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Cathy Moon
24th January 2011, 05:09 AM
It would be good to get him to a neurologist right away and let the doctor determine what is needed. I would be asking for a pain assessment along with a full neurology exam.

All CKCS rescues are going to need to plan for an increased incidence of neurological problems in their rescues as more is becoming known about CM/SM.

anniemac
24th January 2011, 07:57 AM
It would be good to get him to a neurologist right away and let the doctor determine what is needed. I would be asking for a pain assessment along with a full neurology exam.

All CKCS rescues are going to need to plan for an increased incidence of neurological problems in their rescues as more is becoming known about CM/SM.

I couldn't agree more..
Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Karlin
24th January 2011, 07:10 PM
But why is *club breed rescue* ringing around to pet owners who with all due respect, are not the people they should be talking to? They need to be talking either to a well informed VET or directly to a NEUROLOGIST. They should not be using a go-between but talking directly to them, themselves. They should already have done this as soon as they knew this dog was having these kinds of serious health issues and is in obvious pain/discomfort! :sl*p: Rescue is about more than just rehoming dogs -- you have to get the proper care right away as needed for dogs that come in, or take the harder decisions that the dog needs to be pts. But this is a a ridiculous situation.

Anne, please do not tell them they will be spending $2000 on an MRi before they have even gone for a clinical exam. This is incorrect information and may have nothing to do with this dogs condition, and such advice may delay this dog from getting the immediate care it obviously needs while people dither over MRI costs. The coordinator should be directly ringing any one of the neurologists in the region -- they are ALL listed on Rod Russell's website (sadly the clubs have failed to provide this type of critical health-related information to members, leaving the huge gaps to be filled by people like Rod).

It is really really important for them to be getting the *right* information by talking *directly* to experts and this is the wrong way to help. In my experience it just causes more problems and confusions to be going through people who may or may not have an idea of what is going on and who end up passing along third hand information that may or may not be correct (eg not being sure of medications, symptoms, what vets have said so far, no familiarity with the actual vet records), which is what happens too easily with serious health problems. Just have THEM ring Ella's neurologist or any other neurologist in the region -- and tell them bluntly they need to be doing this directly and NOW. :mad:

Karlin
24th January 2011, 07:21 PM
And surely someone in that regional club or involved in rescue -- one of ALL those many breeders -- has scanned at least some of their dogs for breeding purposes and therefore knows and has a direct contact to the neurologists in the region. I cannot believe that this far into this horrific disease, that no one they know is scanning and therefore no breeders in the region know any of the neurologists... :sl*p: Is their only expertise depending on pet owners with affected dogs?

anniemac
24th January 2011, 07:59 PM
I called her, left a message and told her to please see a neurologist asap. That needs to be done. I have not heard back. I will see what the status is. She lives in my state so I told her to contact my neurologist or nc state but to see someone first.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Nicki
25th January 2011, 11:36 AM
If I had a cavalier come in with serious SM symptoms I would let that dog have its wings, unless someone within rescue themselves will give that dog a permanent home as it is too much to ask the general public to do especially anyone who has not cared for a dog with SM -- it is hard to understand how difficult it can be. If this rescue dog is having the level of pain of the dog in the video, the kindest thing would be to euthanise the dog (as the one in the video was not long after -- my understanding is that dog went undiagnosed for ages because people thought it was having seizures :( ).

Not all will agree but I cannot imagine how breed rescue would pay for surgery or find an informed owner willing to take on the lifetime costs of the expensive medications a severe case dog would need. And such a dog cannot wait around for weeks of fundraising -- they need to see an expert right away.


I agree with you totally Karlin, having lived through this myself with several dogs now, it would not be fair to expect someone to take on a dog with such a serious condition without explaining fully what it meant, and it's hard enough to find good homes anyway. Cavaliers are so endearing and affectionate that you very quickly fall in love with them, and then you have the heartbreak as well as the financial cost to deal with.


If the dog is severely affected then he needs urgent treatment and if the funding is not available then it's not fair to keep him in life and suffering.

anniemac
25th January 2011, 02:48 PM
took to the vet and left him overnight. I thought she was going to take him to the neurologist today because yesterday the vet thought it was SM but today thinks it is PSOM. I sent Cathy a PM last night about some things and she said she would like to talk to her after the neurologist appointment today but when I just talked to her, she said the vet said now it could be PSOM. I don't know what his condition is but I am hoping Cathy Moon can give her better guidence. He has been with the vet this whole time and has not had any seizures or anything but I know he is being evaluated.

anniemac
25th January 2011, 02:49 PM
I am hoping Cathy will talk to her or someone to give guidence

anniemac
25th January 2011, 02:51 PM
deleted comment

Margaret C
25th January 2011, 03:14 PM
I agree with you totally Karlin, having lived through this myself with several dogs now, it would not be fair to expect someone to take on a dog with such a serious condition without explaining fully what it meant, and it's hard enough to find good homes anyway. Cavaliers are so endearing and affectionate that you very quickly fall in love with them, and then you have the heartbreak as well as the financial cost to deal with.


If the dog is severely affected then he needs urgent treatment and if the funding is not available then it's not fair to keep him in life and suffering.

This is the elephant in the room right now.

Over 50% of young cavaliers being scanned through the low cost schemes have SM.

They may not have symptoms at the time they are scanned, but no one can know whether they will stay so lucky, or whether they will develop mild symptoms that can be well controlled or whether they will have agonising pain episodes that will eventually prove too expensive to medicate or too distressing for both owner and dog.

What happens to those dogs that scan badly?

If breeders keep them, those under 2.5 years should not be bred from. Whatever the scale of the breeding activities, that will leave a good many non-productive 'passengers' taking up space & costing money to feed. And of course for those severely affected, there is the cost of medication.

What has happened in the past is that dogs that have finished being bred are usually re-homed as pets. Some breeders have already placed affected cavaliers in pet homes, explaining about SM, although there may have been a temptation to minimise just how much they could still deteriorate.

Some breeders are now selling or giving the dogs they know or believe are affected to unsuspecting owners. There are still dogs being given away with "ear infections" or because they can't be shown as "they don't like wearing a collar"

Some owners are putting them into rescue. I was warning three years ago that cavalier rescue organisations need to have a policy on SM.

I know of one rescue dog, whose owner believes the symptoms were there at the start. The dog is in pain but not getting the treatment she needs because her loving but hard up owners cannot afford to take her to a neurologist. Nor do they seem able to face up to the fact that her quality of life is pretty dreadful.

The situation is not going to change, it is not going to get better. Even if every breeder started to do the right thing and breed to all guidelines, SM affected dogs will continue to be with us for many years.

What is going to happen to them? How many pet owners here would take on a cavalier that has already been diagnosed with SM?

How many think it is right to be sold or given a SM cavalier without being told the full facts of the dog's condition and how drastically SM can progress?

anniemac
25th January 2011, 04:17 PM
I think this has several different points to bring up but as far as breeders contributing to rescue, then we need to look further into the background.

Pat
25th January 2011, 04:18 PM
Two points:

Margaret, I agree with you, and this is a good discussion subject. I have some personal experience from both points of view. I worked many years in breed rescue (at one point was national rescue co-chair and then was regional rescue chair - many years back). On the other hand, all 12 of my Cavaliers were "rescues" in that I purchased none of them and all of them were adults (anywhere from 1 year old to 14 years old) when they came to live with me. Some were true rescues (picked up off the street) and others were well-bred dogs placed in my home by their breeders or show/owners or turned in to rescue by previous owners. I have adopted dogs with unknown problems and with known problems. I took a 14 year old that I knew had cancer (which could have been easily cured with timely surgery) and spent many thousands of dollars on the surgery and related testing, etc. Sadly, he already had mets when I got him that were not detected on ultrasound, so the effort was too late. My point is that I knew the situation when I took him on, and I did it because he was bred by a dear friend who was no longer available to take him back. So I stepped in to take her place out of friendship. I also adopted a Cavalier with eye problems that I did not know about which cost many thousands. And there were many that I adopted with known MVD and minor eye problems. Despite this history of adopting dogs with "special needs," would I knowingly adopt a dog with SM? The answer is "no."

I have always strongly believed that rescue must thoroughly evaluate dogs and place them with full disclosure. This also means that we must have rescue coordinators at the higher level who are very aware of Cavalier health problems and have access to specialists for consults, etc. I fought many a battle for approval for funds to do more than a cursory exam. I spent my own money and used my own specialist contacts who worked with me with free and reduced cost evaluations and treatment. I do not believe that every dog can be saved and re-homed and I am not opposed to euthanasia when appropriate. I am absolutely opposed to placing dogs that have not been fully evaluated into the homes of unsuspecting pet owners, particularly those new to the breed. As Margaret explained, the new reality of SM makes this subject much more complex. I was only dealing with illnesses such as MVD, eye problems, hips, knees, etc., and even then it was difficult.

Second point It is absolutely inappropriate to be discussing this particular case and naming names on a public forum! This is third party reporting at its worst; and these folks need to figure out what to do without blow by blow reporting and commentary in a group where they are not even members! Moderators, please step in here. Discussing the topic in general is fine. I would be extremely angry were I one of the rescue coordinators involved and my ongoing case was being analyzed in a public forum.

Pat - Atlanta, GA

anniemac
25th January 2011, 05:20 PM
Please delete the thread.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

anniemac
25th January 2011, 05:25 PM
I removed names and I sent a PM and not public. Thanks Pat for bringing to attention

Pat
25th January 2011, 06:41 PM
Thank you very much, Anne. I know that you have good intentions. I've just been in the position of rescue coordinator and I know that there can be sensitive issues.

Again, the topic in general is a good one. How does rescue deal with an increase of dogs with serious and expensive health problems? Will there be more and more pet owners who purchase puppies (from many sources) on a whim without doing the proper research, and, if those dogs become symptomatic with SM, will they turn them over to rescue or abandon them in shelters (only to be adopted by more unsuspecting new owners)? This is a very serious problem, and I would assume that the breed rescue groups are putting policies and procedures into place. Is the goal to rescue a greater number of dogs at a minimum cost per dog or is the goal to take fewer into rescue but thoroughly assess them and place them with full disclosure knowing that the placement will likely be for the lifetime of the dog? This is likely more of a problem in the US since Cavaliers are increasing in popularity quickly but there is less knowledge about the breed in the general pet owning and the general veterinary population.


Pat B. - Atlanta, GA