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RodRussell
28th January 2011, 11:02 PM
Maybe Cavaliers Don't Even Have Chiari-like Malformation (CM)! Read about it here:
http://www.cavalierhealth.org/editorial.htm

anniemac
29th January 2011, 12:58 AM
Rod,

Has there been any publications about the Brussel Griffins study at UGA. A friend went to to a seminar several months ago about the study.

Since, SM in griffins have been found without CM, it makes you wonder.

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anniemac
29th January 2011, 12:59 AM
I meant griffon

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RodRussell
29th January 2011, 04:48 AM
Rod,

Has there been any publications about the Brussel Griffins study at UGA. A friend went to to a seminar several months ago about the study.

Since, SM in griffins have been found without CM, it makes you wonder.

See this webpage: http://www.vet.uga.edu/hospital/smallanimal/neurology/syringomyelia.php

Bet
29th January 2011, 10:23 AM
Maybe Cavaliers Don't Even Have Chiari-like Malformation (CM)! Read about it here:
http://www.cavalierhealth.org/editorial.htm


MAYBE CAVALIERS DON'T EVEN HAVE CHIARI -LIKE MALFORMATION(CM)!

So, are the Smaller Heads that many Cavaliers have to-day , could be involved in these findings.

The Smaller Cavalier Heads started to appear in the early 1980's .the first Recorded SM Case of SM in a Cavalier was I believe 1986.

It has been reported that the Cavaliers' Heads don't grow in conjunction with their Brains .

I know that the excuse will be being given by some Cavalier Breeders that SM is in other Breeds , but it is said by Researchers that SM is more Prevalent in Cavaliers and is there any other other Breed whose Head Shape has been Bred Smaller in the last 30 years like the Cavaliers' Heads have.

In the Foetal Research ,85 Cavalier Whelps all had the Malformed Bone, so is this Bone normal for our Cavalier Breed and their SM Problem is more to do with the Minuterizing of their Heads.

Food For Thought.

Bet

Nicki
29th January 2011, 12:26 PM
Bet this doesn't mention anything about head size, it's basically saying that it may not be the skull that is at fault but the size of the hindbrain.

RodRussell
29th January 2011, 01:49 PM
...So, are the Smaller Heads that many Cavaliers have to-day , could be involved in these findings. ...

No, Bet. And, I am unaware that cavaliers' heads are smaller today than thirty or forty years ago. Where is that research to be found?

Bet
29th January 2011, 02:43 PM
No, Bet. And, I am unaware that cavaliers' heads are smaller today than thirty or forty years ago. Where is that research to be found?

MAYBE CAVALIERS DON'T EVEN HAVE CHIARI -LIKE MALFORMATION(CM)!

In Dr Rusbridge's Thesis ,she mentioned the Minaturization of Cavaliers , what was Minatureized in our Cavalier Breed.

Was it their Bodies , Heads or what ,perhaps some -one will tell me?

Bet

RodRussell
29th January 2011, 03:15 PM
MAYBE CAVALIERS DON'T EVEN HAVE CHIARI -LIKE MALFORMATION(CM)!

In Dr Rusbridge's Thesis ,she mentioned the Minaturization of Cavaliers , what was Minatureized in our Cavalier Breed.

Was it their Bodies , Heads or what ,perhaps some -one will tell me?

Bet

I think she was referring to minaturization prior to the creation of the breed -- the minaturization which created toy dogs. At any rate, that point has not been repeated in the past few years, during which much more has been learned from additional research. I am unaware of any research showing that cavalier head sizes have reduced over the years since 1927.

The 2009 and 2010 reports referred to in the cited editorial conclude that the skull size appears to not be a factor leading to SM, but instead that the cerebellum is oversized for the skull. So, apparently the problem is the size of the brain and not the size of the head.

sunshinekisses
29th January 2011, 06:10 PM
the brain is too big?? How the *cuss* does that happen. I also thought I had read that the cavalier skull finishes growing too soon...that the bones fuse too early. Really all of this is very confusing especially to a newbie that has future plans for breeding. What I wish would happen is more cavaliers get scanned and have dna samples for research.
I really don't think anyone can say the skulls are smaller today than years ago, because no one has done any measurements. I would like to see numbers before that statement can be made because I don't really see any head differences in older pictures I have seen. I have actually noticed a few dogs in the ring with quite large heads. I have also seen a few pin-heads but I don't think size of head would be a reason to say this dog will be more likely for SM or not. Not enough research has been done...not enough dogs have been scanned. JMO.

Bet
29th January 2011, 07:00 PM
the brain is too big?? How the *cuss* does that happen. I also thought I had read that the cavalier skull finishes growing too soon...that the bones fuse too early. Really all of this is very confusing especially to a newbie that has future plans for breeding. What I wish would happen is more cavaliers get scanned and have dna samples for research.
I really don't think anyone can say the skulls are smaller today than years ago, because no one has done any measurements. I would like to see numbers before that statement can be made because I don't really see any head differences in older pictures I have seen. I have actually noticed a few dogs in the ring with quite large heads. I have also seen a few pin-heads but I don't think size of head would be a reason to say this dog will be more likely for SM or not. Not enough research has been done...not enough dogs have been scanned. JMO.



MAYBE CAVALIERS DON't EVEN HAVE A CHIARI -LIKE MALFORMATION (CM) !

All Dogs have descended from Wolves ,so why do not all Breeds of Dogs have SM,also it has been stated often enough ,that the Cavaliers' Brain is like getting a size 10 foot into a Size 6 Shoe.

However the Cavalier Breed is nearly at the Point of Extinction ,because of SM and MVD, so where SM has come from is least of our beloved Cavaliers' worries ,it is in the Cavalier Breed, yet some Vociferous ,Vitirolic Cavalier Breeders are still doing all they can to put a stop to the KC/BVA MRI Scanning Scheme from going ahead.

Is it because they are scared they won't be able to sell their Cavalier Puppies and their Incomes will be damaged, or will it be disclosed whose Cavaliers have been involved with SM and this will be known to all in the Cavalier World?

I just cannot understand why some Cavalier Breeders are trying to Thwart this Scheme, I know I would be so Ashamed to be doing this after hearing the Cavalier Screaming in Pain on the PDE TV Program ,it's a Sound I will never forget.

Also to know that those Cavalier Breeders could be contributing to Cavaliers to a Life-Time of Medication for SM to keep their SM Pain under control,when according to the SM Researchers this MRI Scheme could go to-wards helping the Suffering of the Cavalier Breed from SM.

I guess , it takes all kinds of Folk in the Cavalier World , those who Truly Love the Breed , and the Small Minority who only pay Lip Service to the Cavaliers' Health Problems.

Bet

anniemac
29th January 2011, 07:12 PM
Having a cavalier with sm, I am not saying this in anyway to be interpretted to have anything to do with the scheme. I think they should have mri, wait until 2 1/2.

I want to say that cavaliers are not the only breed with SM. Actually several toy breeds have been found to have SM. There has just been more research on cavaliers. It might be more, common but to say it is only this breed is not correct. I don't know the comparision with other toys. Now, we may be lucky to have more research and start a breeding scheme.

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anniemac
29th January 2011, 07:26 PM
I shouldn't have said lucky, its a terrible condition but I am glad there has been more research done on cavaliers

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Davecav
29th January 2011, 09:14 PM
Bet
You say
However the Cavalier Breed is nearly at the Point of Extinction ,because of SM and MVD.

I do think this is rather melodramatic. There are many healthy cavaliers leading normal lives. The breed is hardly at the point of extinction by any definition.

Like everyone else I hope that the mode of inheritabce can be pinpointed sooner rather than later.
But there are breeders (that Margaret Carter has said) who are trying their best to do everything possible, under the tough circumstances, to breed away from this condition and the early heart problems.
Extinction means that there are none of a particular species left.
With all the puppy farm bred cavaliers and BYB cavaliers being churned out (whether any of us like it or not) the breed will be going for many years to come.

Whether or not these establishments breed healthy cavaliers is a totally different argument.:rolleyes:

anniemac
29th January 2011, 09:30 PM
This was started by rod, so I know he did not write this with any means to hurt the health of the breed or kc/ebv scheme. If I'm wrong then he can correct me. I think there is a continued need for more research and that has nothing to do with the scheme.

Also, I don't want any cavalier to suffer no matter who they are. So if they need to be treated with medication, then so be it as long as it helps them from pain.

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Karlin
29th January 2011, 10:49 PM
Rod withall due respect I think you have misread the research -- which all pretty much agrees that there is a mismatch between 1) the skull being too small due to a formation similar but not the same as the Chiari Malformation in humans and 2) the brain having a larger volume that would be the norm for a breed of the cavalier's size. So the bone stops growing at a point when the brain keeps growing. My understanding from human specialists is that this too is what seems to happen with Chiari. Have any of these researchers actually agreed that they would not call this problem CM?

I think it would be unfortunate if breeders now misunderstand this all to mean there's no CM and that SM is the issue. There is clear evidence from the genome work that there are separate genes for CM and SM -- a key initial finding -- and that while not all CM dogs go on to get SM, all dogs with SM have CM. In about a fourth of cases dogs show symptoms from CM alone (this is much much higher in humans where Chiari is more common and causes the most pain). Some very eminent human SM specialists who attended both the SM events in the UK both agreed with a description of CM in dogs that is like, but not the same as, Chiari maformation.

Understanding the relationship between the genes for CM and those for SM and why some dogs switch on the SM genes and some do not is considered a quite critical part of current research.

From some breeder posts in reply to your posting elsewhere, I can see some already totally misunderstand what the genome research is about and ow will run with this interpretation as defense of ... well whatever misreadings they already have of existing research.:sl*p:

The issue of name for the condition was already debated at length and CM was chosen precisely because it was NOT meant to mislead people into confusing Chiari with a Chiari-like malformation. But a lot of neurologists continue to call CM 'Chiari malformation' in dogs (including some who were amongst the group at the meeting, that decided the condition should not be called Chiari malformation or COMS...:rolleyes:...go figure). But no matter how confusing, I think both those approaches still demonstrate that *all* these researchers and the ones cited in other papers define the issue as one of a malformed bone at the base of the skull which does not grow in accordance with brain development and therefore, due to a mismatch between resulting skull volume (caused by CM) and brain size, ends up compressing the hindbrain in a way similar to Chiari malformation in humans.

For what it is worth I know of geneticists and other specialists including some who have not said this publicly who believe the situation for the breed is quite dire and that it probably will not survive many more (human) generations before it faces too high a risk of seriously compromised and painful life if drastic action isn't taken. Given club breeder opposition to nearly every single thing done by researchers and the BVA to try to improve health, including the screening schemes they themselves demanded (but don;t want to follow once put in place) I cannot imagine the breed can continue much longer without outside international regulation on breeding.

Even people like Dr Jeff Samson, the Kennel Club's own genetics specialist, are now saying they think the breed is under threat and what he has stated at a couple of breed events is quite different from what he said in Pedigree Dogs Exposed. He now accepts probably 70% eventually have SM -- that is a shocking, shocking percentage with a serious neurological disorder considered one of the most painful and horrific health issues that humans can get. In a human population, that would bring national enquiries and massive funding to find out what is going wrong. :(

RodRussell
30th January 2011, 02:39 AM
Rod withall due respect I think you have misread the research -- which all pretty much agrees that there is a mismatch between 1) the skull being too small due to a formation similar but not the same as the Chiari Malformation in humans and 2) the brain having a larger volume that would be the norm for a breed of the cavalier's size. So the bone stops growing at a point when the brain keeps growing. My understanding from human specialists is that this too is what seems to happen with Chiari. Have any of these researchers actually agreed that they would not call this problem CM? ...

... But no matter how confusing, I think both those approaches still demonstrate that *all* these researchers and the ones cited in other papers define the issue as one of a malformed bone at the base of the skull which does not grow in accordance with brain development and therefore, due to a mismatch between resulting skull volume (caused by CM) and brain size, ends up compressing the hindbrain in a way similar to Chiari malformation in humans. ...

I don't think that the bone at the base of the skull is malformed at all, as I interpret the 2009 and 2010 articles.

In the 2009 German study, Evaluation of the volumes of cranial cavities in Cavalier King Charles Spaniels with Chiari-like malformation and other brachycephalic dogs as measured via computed tomography. Schmidt MJ, Biel M, Klumpp S, Schneider M, Kramer M. Am J Vet Res. 2009 Apr;70(4):508-12; they wrote: "Results of this study suggested that descent of the cerebellum into the foramen magnum and the presence of syringohydromyelia in CKCSs are not necessarily associated with a volume reduction in the CF of the skull."

In the 2009 UK study, Comparison of cerebral cranium volumes between cavalier King Charles spaniels with Chiari-like malformation, small breed dogs and Labradors. H. R. Cross, R. Cappello, and C. Rusbridge. J Small Anim. Pract. 2009 Aug ; 50:399-405; they wrote: "Other small breeds of dogs had a proportionately smaller volume of parenchyma in their caudal fossa which can explain why, despite having a similar sized caudal fossa to CKCS, they do not experience overcrowding."

In the 2010 UK study, Volumetric Analysis Of Brain Parenchyma Within The Caudal Fossae Of Cavalier King Charles Spaniels. C Driver, C Rusbridge, H Cross, HA Volk. 22nd ECVN Annual Symposium, Sept. 2009; J Vet Intern Med, Jan/Feb 2010;24(1):242; they wrote: "This work supports recent evidence that caudal fossa size is not associated with SM, but that overcrowding of the caudal fossa leads to SM and may be caused by mesoderm insufficiency."

Granted, these may be cherry-picked passages, but they are consistent findings that there is no volume reduction in the caudal fossa. The definition of CM includes this element: "decreased caudal fossa volume".

RodRussell
30th January 2011, 02:52 AM
...It might be more, common but to say it is only this breed is not correct. ...

I am not aware that anyone fairly knowledgeable about SM has ever claimed that it has been found only in cavaliers. Dogs in a few other breeds have been diagnosed with SM, including the Bichon Frisť, Boston terrier, Brussels Griffon (Griffon Bruxellois), bull terrier, Chihuahua, French bulldog, Havanese, King Charles spaniel (the English toy spaniel), Maltese terrier, miniature dachshund, miniature and toy poodles, Papillon, Pomeranian, Pug, Shih Tzu, Staffordshire bull terrier, and the Yorkshire terrier.

RodRussell
30th January 2011, 04:26 AM
At the Syringomyelia International Conference at the Royal Veterinary College held in November 2006, the participants agreed to define Chiari-like malformation as "decreased caudal fossa volume with caudal descent of the cerebellum, and often the brainstem, into or though the foramen magnum." I now have been told that the definition of Chiari-like malformation (CM) has been revised, and that it no longer is limited to just a "decreased caudal fossa volume".

Now, the definition of CM includes a mis-match due to the skull being too small and the brain being too large, meaning the ratio of the caudal fossa volume to the volume of the hindbrain parenchyma within the caudal fossa.

Here is how CM now is defined on Dr. Rusbridge's website:

"Chiari-like malformation (CM) is the most common cause of foramen magnum obstruction and syringomyelia in the dog. CM is a condition characterised by mismatch in size between the brain (too big) and the skull (too small). There is not enough room for the brain and the back part (cerebellum and medulla) is pushed out the FM."

And this is how Dr. Rusbridge describes what causes CM:

"CM is not yet fully understood. Somehow the miniaturisation process in the Cavalier went awry and unlike many other toy breeds the brain did not decrease in size in proportion with the skull. The Cavalier appears to have a brain more appropriate for a bigger dog."

This is a relief, because the old definition, focusing solely as it did upon the cavalier's caudal fossa volume, when compared to the caudal fossa volumes of other breeds, was reportedly proportionately consistent, according to how I have interpreted the 2009 and 2010 German and UK articles on the subject.

It may be that comparisons between the caudal fossa volume of cavaliers with the caudal fossa volume of other breeds is misleading and irrelevant. In the other breeds, the volume of the caudal fossa is adequate to accommodate the volume of the brain parenchyma, while in the CKCS, it is not. The researchers pretty consistently have hypothesized that the development of syringomyelia may be related to a cumulative effect of a small caudal fossa and an enlarged brain parenchyma within it.

Whether or not the size of the caudal fossa plays a major role in the mis-match is of little consequence. The important thing is to recognize that the CKCS has proportionately more hindbrain volume than other small breed dogs, and that this may be due to an overgrowth of the cerebellum in the embryo, or to early growth plate closure, or both.

Bet
30th January 2011, 09:43 AM
Rod withall due respect I think you have misread the research -- which all pretty much agrees that there is a mismatch between 1) the skull being too small due to a formation similar but not the same as the Chiari Malformation in humans and 2) the brain having a larger volume that would be the norm for a breed of the cavalier's size. So the bone stops growing at a point when the brain keeps growing. My understanding from human specialists is that this too is what seems to happen with Chiari. Have any of these researchers actually agreed that they would not call this problem CM?

I think it would be unfortunate if breeders now misunderstand this all to mean there's no CM and that SM is the issue. There is clear evidence from the genome work that there are separate genes for CM and SM -- a key initial finding -- and that while not all CM dogs go on to get SM, all dogs with SM have CM. In about a fourth of cases dogs show symptoms from CM alone (this is much much higher in humans where Chiari is more common and causes the most pain). Some very eminent human SM specialists who attended both the SM events in the UK both agreed with a description of CM in dogs that is like, but not the same as, Chiari maformation.

Understanding the relationship between the genes for CM and those for SM and why some dogs switch on the SM genes and some do not is considered a quite critical part of current research.

From some breeder posts in reply to your posting elsewhere, I can see some already totally misunderstand what the genome research is about and ow will run with this interpretation as defense of ... well whatever misreadings they already have of existing research.:sl*p:

The issue of name for the condition was already debated at length and CM was chosen precisely because it was NOT meant to mislead people into confusing Chiari with a Chiari-like malformation. But a lot of neurologists continue to call CM 'Chiari malformation' in dogs (including some who were amongst the group at the meeting, that decided the condition should not be called Chiari malformation or COMS...:rolleyes:...go figure). But no matter how confusing, I think both those approaches still demonstrate that *all* these researchers and the ones cited in other papers define the issue as one of a malformed bone at the base of the skull which does not grow in accordance with brain development and therefore, due to a mismatch between resulting skull volume (caused by CM) and brain size, ends up compressing the hindbrain in a way similar to Chiari malformation in humans.

For what it is worth I know of geneticists and other specialists including some who have not said this publicly who believe the situation for the breed is quite dire and that it probably will not survive many more (human) generations before it faces too high a risk of seriously compromised and painful life if drastic action isn't taken. Given club breeder opposition to nearly every single thing done by researchers and the BVA to try to improve health, including the screening schemes they themselves demanded (but don;t want to follow once put in place) I cannot imagine the breed can continue much longer without outside international regulation on breeding.

Even people like Dr Jeff Samson, the Kennel Club's own genetics specialist, are now saying they think the breed is under threat and what he has stated at a couple of breed events is quite different from what he said in Pedigree Dogs Exposed. He now accepts probably 70% eventually have SM -- that is a shocking, shocking percentage with a serious neurological disorder considered one of the most painful and horrific health issues that humans can get. In a human population, that would bring national enquiries and massive funding to find out what is going wrong. :(

MAYBE CAVALIERS DON'T EVEN HAVE A CHIARI -LIKE MALFORMATION (CM) !

Karlin,

Thank -you for your Post.

I'm away now to watch Andy M, the Scot's Pin Up Boy on TV , hopefully winning his First Grand Slam.

Bet

Bet
30th January 2011, 01:16 PM
MAYBE CAVALIERS DON'T EVEN HAVE A CHIARI -LIKE MALFORMATION (CM) !

Karlin,

Thank -you for your Post.

I'm away now to watch Andy M, the Scot's Pin Up Boy on TV , hopefully winning his First Grand Slam.

Bet


MAYBE CAVALIERS DON'T EVEN HAVE A CHIARI -LIKE MALFORMATION (CM) !

Well I've watched the Tennis on TV ,Andy M was just out classed, and perhaps he should Wash his Mouth Out.!!!!

Could I add this to my previous Post ,it has been mentioned that Probably 70% of Cavaliers eventually have SM.

This means that there are possibly 100,000 Cavaliers living in Britain at 10 years of Age, ( there have been up to last year around 11,000 Cavaliers registered yearly by the Kennel Club),this means that 70.000 of Cavaliers eventually suffer from SM.

What will it take to convince those few Elderly Cavalier Breeders who seem to think that Cavalier World Revolves around them ,and are putting every Obstacle in the way of the Researchers by Hindering the Progress of the BVA/KC MRI Scanning Scheme going ahead.

There are many Cavalier Breeders now supporting this Scheme and understand that the Advice from the Researchers will give our Cavalier Breed a chance of Surviving.

Will those Few Out of Date Cavalier Breeders now take a Back Seat, and let the Researchers and Cavalier Breeders get on with trying to save our Belvef Cavaliers.

Bet

RodRussell
30th January 2011, 08:59 PM
The editorial on cavalierhealth.org has been updated. See http://www.cavalierhealth.org/editorial.htm#January_30,_2011:

Cathy Moon
30th January 2011, 10:37 PM
I like how you added Gilda Radner's 'Never Mind!' :lol:

Pat
31st January 2011, 02:04 AM
I like how you added Gilda Radner's 'Never Mind!' :lol:

Oh, golly, that brings to mind so very many funny skits - three of my favorites were "youth in Asia," "endangered feces," and "flea erections in China" (who cares about flea erections - they're so tiny that nobody even notices......)

Pat (old enough to have watched the original Saturday Night Live shows.........)

Bet
31st January 2011, 12:44 PM
Oh, golly, that brings to mind so very many funny skits - three of my favorites were "youth in Asia," "endangered feces," and "flea erections in China" (who cares about flea erections - they're so tiny that nobody even notices......)

Pat (old enough to have watched the original Saturday Night Live shows.........)

MAYBE CAVALIERS DON'T EVEN HAVE A CHIARI -LIKE MALFORMATION !

Is the Main Point in this Discussion, that in Cavaliers ,they have a Brain that is Too Big and a Skull that is too Small .

That is the Bottom Line.

Whether it's a Mismatch or what ever it's called ,their Brains are too Big for their Heads.

Bet

RodRussell
31st January 2011, 02:00 PM
Is the Main Point in this Discussion, that in Cavaliers ,they have a Brain that is Too Big and a Skull that is too Small .

That is the Bottom Line.

Whether it's a Mismatch or what ever it's called ,their Brains are too Big for their Heads.

I think that at this point in the research, the volume of the hindbrain definitely is too big for the hind-skull, and that the hind-skull also may be too small for the brain -- thus the "mis-match" -- and that the reasons for this are either the brain continuing to grow after the skull stops growing, or the skull stopping to grow too soon.

Since most recent studies have found that the volume within the hind-skulls of cavaliers is proportionately the same as that of other toy breeds, my money would be on the brain being too large rather than the skull being too small. But, it could be both.

anniemac
31st January 2011, 02:22 PM
Then why is Ella not that smart? Lol

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RodRussell
31st January 2011, 02:24 PM
Then why is Ella not that smart? Lol

Define "smart". Does she get you to dote on her day and night? Have you ever hand-fed her food? Does she sleep in your bed? Do you arrange your life around her schedule?

anniemac
31st January 2011, 03:51 PM
Define "smart". Does she get you to dote on her day and night? Have you ever hand-fed her food? Does she sleep in your bed? Do you arrange your life around her schedule?

LOL, I guess she is smart.

Yes I dote on her every day and night.
Speaking of handing her food. That was the only way I used to be able to give her food. I thought she would only eat it that way. That has changed because I guess I got smart.

She does sleep in my bed and she takes up half of it because she lays sideways. When I budge her to move she acts like she can't feel me. zzzzz

My schedule revolves around her as does my living arrangements. I do not go to functions or if I do, I make sure she can come or she has a play date. If I go out at night it is usually to a place called the "dog bar". Actually I really cool place where Ella has even been on the bar. However, I never go out. Cesar would say "she is the pack leader"

She also know how to get lick around the medicine, eat everything, put then her pills are on the floor. Looking up with those brown eyes. I know you have to give me more to take my medication :d*g:

Well I guess she is extremely smart because she knows how to work it.

Bet
31st January 2011, 06:50 PM
I think that at this point in the research, the volume of the hindbrain definitely is too big for the hind-skull, and that the hind-skull also may be too small for the brain -- thus the "mis-match" -- and that the reasons for this are either the brain continuing to grow after the skull stops growing, or the skull stopping to grow too soon.

Since most recent studies have found that the volume within the hind-skulls of cavaliers is proportionately the same as that of other toy breeds, my money would be on the brain being too large rather than the skull being too small. But, it could be both.

MAYBE CAVALIERS DON'T EVEN HAVE A CHIARI -LIKE MALFORMATION(CM)!

For me and I would think others Reading what has been mentioned ,will Automatically believe that CM as has been said, and I am qouting is a Condition charactised by mismatch in Size between the Cavaliers' Brain (Too Big) and their Skull (Too Small).

What can be simpler than that to ordinary Cavalier Owners or Prospective Buyers of Cavaliers, that the Cavaliers'
Brain is (Too Big) and their Skull (Too Small).

This is what has been stated, and there can be no getting away from this Statement.

Bet

RodRussell
31st January 2011, 07:37 PM
MAYBE CAVALIERS DON'T EVEN HAVE A CHIARI -LIKE MALFORMATION(CM)!

For me and I would think others Reading what has been mentioned ,will Automatically believe that CM as has been said, and I am qouting is a Condition charactised by mismatch in Size between the Cavaliers' Brain (Too Big) and their Skull (Too Small).

What can be simpler than that to ordinary Cavalier Owners or Prospective Buyers of Cavaliers, that the Cavaliers'
Brain is (Too Big) and their Skull (Too Small).

This is what has been stated, and there can be no getting away from this Statement.

Yes, there is. Because recent research has suggested that the skull is not too small, when compared to the skulls of other toy breeds.

Bet
1st February 2011, 10:26 AM
Yes, there is. Because recent research has suggested that the skull is not too small, when compared to the skulls of other toy breeds.

MAYBE CAVALIERS DON'T EVEN HAVE A CHIARI -LIKE MALFORMATION (CM) !

Sorry to keep on about this Folks!

All I know is that ,and once again I will quote the Statement.

"CM is a condition characterised by mismatch in size between the Brain (Too Big) and the Skull (Too Small)"

This comment is in regard to our Cavaliers

This is how Dr Rusbridge has described CM on her Web Site for Cavaliers.

That is good enough for me to believe .

Bet.

Kate H
1st February 2011, 11:20 AM
"CM is a condition characterised by mismatch in size between the Brain (Too Big) and the Skull (Too Small)"

I think there is an entirely unnecessary difference of opinion going on here. If the brain grows larger than it should, then the skull - even if it is a normal size skull for the breed - is going to be too small to accommodate the brain.

If I put on weight and can't do up my trousers, then my trousers are too small - but they haven't shrunk and become smaller. It is my waistline that has grown too big for them. So I can say that my waist is too big and my trousers are too small, but only one thing has actually changed its size - my waist. The trousers have stayed the same size but they can no longer contain my fat waistline.

So Rod can say that the size of Cavalier skulls has not got smaller, and Clare can say that the skull is too small to contain an oversize brain, not because the skull has shrunk but because the brain has grown. No conflict there. The lack of communication seems to be that the brain doesn't hear the skull telling it to stop growing - like the buttons on my trousers warn me that if I don't start dieting, they're not going to be able to meet in the middle any longer!

Kate, Oliver and Aled

Sandrac
1st February 2011, 12:23 PM
"CM is a condition characterised by mismatch in size between the Brain (Too Big) and the Skull (Too Small)"

I think there is an entirely unnecessary difference of opinion going on here. If the brain grows larger than it should, then the skull - even if it is a normal size skull for the breed - is going to be too small to accommodate the brain.

If I put on weight and can't do up my trousers, then my trousers are too small - but they haven't shrunk and become smaller. It is my waistline that has grown too big for them. So I can say that my waist is too big and my trousers are too small, but only one thing has actually changed its size - my waist. The trousers have stayed the same size but they can no longer contain my fat waistline.

So Rod can say that the size of Cavalier skulls has not got smaller, and Clare can say that the skull is too small to contain an oversize brain, not because the skull has shrunk but because the brain has grown. No conflict there. The lack of communication seems to be that the brain doesn't hear the skull telling it to stop growing - like the buttons on my trousers warn me that if I don't start dieting, they're not going to be able to meet in the middle any longer!

Kate, Oliver and Aled

Kate that is a brilliant analogy. Clear, concise and easy to understand.:)

Davecav
1st February 2011, 12:29 PM
What a clever way of describing it. thanks:)

At least it puts to bed once and for all that overall cavalier heads are no smaller now than they were in the past. To me they look in perfect proportion to their body, and looking at old photographs of cavaliers, there isn't any difference in head size compared with now; though todays dogs are in general more glamourous with longer feathering, and no ticking on the body.

Bet
1st February 2011, 12:37 PM
"CM is a condition characterised by mismatch in size between the Brain (Too Big) and the Skull (Too Small)"

I think there is an entirely unnecessary difference of opinion going on here. If the brain grows larger than it should, then the skull - even if it is a normal size skull for the breed - is going to be too small to accommodate the brain.

If I put on weight and can't do up my trousers, then my trousers are too small - but they haven't shrunk and become smaller. It is my waistline that has grown too big for them. So I can say that my waist is too big and my trousers are too small, but only one thing has actually changed its size - my waist. The trousers have stayed the same size but they can no longer contain my fat waistline.

So Rod can say that the size of Cavalier skulls has not got smaller, and Clare can say that the skull is too small to contain an oversize brain, not because the skull has shrunk but because the brain has grown. No conflict there. The lack of communication seems to be that the brain doesn't hear the skull telling it to stop growing - like the buttons on my trousers warn me that if I don't start dieting, they're not going to be able to meet in the middle any longer!

Kate, Oliver and Aled

MAYBE CAVALIERS DON'T EVEN HAVE A CHIARI -LIKE MALFORMATION (CM)!

The Disaster for our Cavaliers is that they have Too Big a Brain,and is giving a Worrying Health Problem for our Cavalier Breed.

This is the Fact about what has happened to our Cavaliers.

That must concern the Owners and Prospective Buyers of Cavaliers.

Bet

RodRussell
1st February 2011, 03:06 PM
All I know is that ,and once again I will quote the Statement.

"CM is a condition characterised by mismatch in size between the Brain (Too Big) and the Skull (Too Small)"

This comment is in regard to our Cavaliers

This is how Dr Rusbridge has described CM on her Web Site for Cavaliers.

That is good enough for me to believe.

Dr. Rusbridge also writes, on the same page of her website:

"Somehow the miniaturisation process in the Cavalier went awry and unlike many other toy breeds the brain did not decrease in size in proportion with the skull. The Cavalier appears to have a brain more appropriate for a bigger dog."

Bet
1st February 2011, 07:12 PM
What a clever way of describing it. thanks:)

At least it puts to bed once and for all that overall cavalier heads are no smaller now than they were in the past. To me they look in perfect proportion to their body, and looking at old photographs of cavaliers, there isn't any difference in head size compared with now; though todays dogs are in general more glamourous with longer feathering, and no ticking on the body.

MAYBE CAVALIERS DON'T EVEN HAVE A CHIARI -LIKE MALFORMATION(CM)!

To Davecav, have a look at the 1928- 1999 UK CKCS CLUB'S BOOK OF Champions.

Here are some Cavalier's Heads that are different from to-day's Cavalier Heads.

Ch Daywell Roger born 1945

Ch Katrina of Loyaltyway born 1946

Ch Dolores of Loyaltyway born 1948

Ch Pargeter Jollyean of Avoncliffe born 1947

Ch Claudedette of Hillbarn born 1946

Ch Pargeter Phyllida born 1954.

I could add many ,many more , but what's the use.

All I know is, it is a Fact that the Cavalier Brains are Too Big,and that is causing the Distressing Health Problem for them.

I would have thought that this should be of Great concern to the Lovers of our Cavaliers ,than whether they are looking Glamourous or not, whether the Cavaliers are not having to Suffer and their Owners having to pay so much in Medication for them , because they have the Misfortune to have Too Big Brains.

Bet

Kate H
1st February 2011, 08:23 PM
It is very difficult to make a realistic estimate of head shape/size from photos. Looking through the book of Cavalier champions 1928-1999, I would list the following champions from the 1950s and 60s as having heads that look fairly small, or have very deep stops: Pargeter Philander, Aloysius of Sunninghill, Gabb's Sonday, Mingshang Fabian, Heatherside Ailie and Ivan the Terrible of Chacombe. But really only those who saw them in the flesh can judge their heads.

Incidentally, in his showing days my Oliver - who comes from blue-blooded modern show stock - was often criticised for his big head (his head is very like that of Ch Steller's Eider of Pantisa, born in 1968), yet he has SM. I'm sure there are many show-bred Cavaliers who were sold as pets who like Oliver have good 'old-fashioned' size heads. I deplore many of the modern show heads, but this doesn't mean that ALL Cavaliers now have shorter muzzles - just that some show breeders keep the pups for show that fit the latest fashion, and sell off the others as pets. Cavaliers with heads of all sizes have SM. And Clare Rusbridge repeatedly says that you cannot tell from head shape alone whether a dog has SM.

I think we need to focus on big brains!

Kate, Oliver and Aled

PS Why, when I try to type 1968) do I keep getting a blue head in sunglasses?! The dog in question was born in the eighth year of the sixth decade of the twentieth century!

Davecav
1st February 2011, 09:52 PM
Bet

I have looked at lots of photos of cavaliers of the past, they come in all shapes and sizes. The point I was making is that no-one can make a sweeping statement and say cavalier heads are smaller now! There is no proof. Nor have they shorter noses as a whole. There were short noses in the past - Cavaliers were bred from Charlies. There are some cavaliers with long noses now as well as some still with a deep stop and shorter nose - going back to the charlies.

We do not know, though we can assume that SM has been in the breed for many more years than it has been diagnosed, it used to be known as the 'scratching problem?" becuase there was no way of diagnsing what it was - no MRI scans in those days.

Anyway I will stick with the statement that Clare Rushbridge gives thank you. It is factual and tries to explain what might have gone wrong, rather than blaming modern breeders for creating small heads - for which I can see no proof.



"Somehow the miniaturisation process in the Cavalier went awry and unlike many other toy breeds the brain did not decrease in size in proportion with the skull. The Cavalier appears to have a brain more appropriate for a bigger dog."

Bet
2nd February 2011, 10:19 AM
Bet

I have looked at lots of photos of cavaliers of the past, they come in all shapes and sizes. The point I was making is that no-one can make a sweeping statement and say cavalier heads are smaller now! There is no proof. Nor have they shorter noses as a whole. There were short noses in the past - Cavaliers were bred from Charlies. There are some cavaliers with long noses now as well as some still with a deep stop and shorter nose - going back to the charlies.

We do not know, though we can assume that SM has been in the breed for many more years than it has been diagnosed, it used to be known as the 'scratching problem?" becuase there was no way of diagnsing what it was - no MRI scans in those days.

Anyway I will stick with the statement that Clare Rushbridge gives thank you. It is factual and tries to explain what might have gone wrong, rather than blaming modern breeders for creating small heads - for which I can see no proof.



"Somehow the miniaturisation process in the Cavalier went awry and unlike many other toy breeds the brain did not decrease in size in proportion with the skull. The Cavalier appears to have a brain more appropriate for a bigger dog."

MAYBE CAVALIERS DON'T EVEN HAVE A CHIARI -LIKE MALFORMATION!

That the Cavaliers have Brains Too Big, we all must agree is a Terrible Problem for the Cavalier Breed to have.

As Davecav has said some-thing has gone wrong for this to have happened, it does not alter the fact that Cavaliers' Brains are Too Big.

Is this not a Dreadful Problem for our Cavalier Breed to have?

I would think many Folk will agree with me about this .

The Question must be being asked , Cavaliers at 5-6 years of Age 50% have a Heart Murmur ,and now have Big Brains , can the Breed last much Longer .

CM has now been Defined as a Condition Characterised by a mismatch in size between the Brain (Too Big) and the Skull (Too Small).

We also know that there were 85 Whelps Researched for the Foetal Research, all had CM .

Does this show that most of the Cavalier Breed will have CM ,and that most Cavaliers have Too Big Brains and their Skulls Too Small.

A Frightening Thought.

Bet

sunshinekisses
2nd February 2011, 08:49 PM
....most of the Cavalier Breed will have CM ,and that most Cavaliers have Too Big Brains and their Skulls Too Small.
Sad, especially that we now know CM causes great pain for some.