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Kate H
6th February 2011, 03:47 PM
Has anyone heard how the meeting went on Thursday? The Midland Club reps were opposing the scheme - but since they never asked the membership what they thought (except at the very last minute) what they really meant was that the Midland Club Committee was opposing the scheme. :bang:

Kate, Oliver and Aled

Margaret C
7th February 2011, 06:48 PM
Has anyone heard how the meeting went on Thursday? The Midland Club reps were opposing the scheme - but since they never asked the membership what they thought (except at the very last minute) what they really meant was that the Midland Club Committee was opposing the scheme. :bang:

Kate, Oliver and Aled


Well Kate,

Although there was some last minute, fairly undemocratic, attempts to take "a straw poll" from some club members it seems that all those representing the clubs, have been sworn to secrecy until a report comes out.

So what is there that needs to be hidden from the ordinary members?

Foot dragging, cowardice on the part of the KC, commercial breeders' vested interest sabotaging an official scheme.
I doubt if the suffering of the over 50% of cavaliers affected by SM was even mentioned by those present?

I will tell you what I have heard, but I cannot guarantee all the details are correct. For that we will need to wait for a report that could take a long time coming.

I heard that the Cavalier Club's own health representative was missing from the meeting. Rumour says that after two years of work on the scheme she was banned from attending.

If that is true, then history certainly does repeat itself, as the same thing happened two & half years ago when I was health representative and banned from the first meeting called to set up the scheme
The last person breeders want attending is someone who really knows about the extent of SM.

I have been told that at the February 3rd meeting a revised grading scheme was discussed. It was thought it would be possible to automatically add the age at scanning to the grades.

There was the usual criticism of the cost of the scheme, & a suggestion that it may be possible to reduce the fee for a re-scan at 6 years.

As you would expect the biggest issue was publication of results. The Kennel Club seemingly suggested that the only information published in the BRS, on the KC website, and on the registration documents, was whether a dog had been MRI scanned through the offical scheme, and at what age

This would still mean that if a breeder or puppy buyer wanted to know about a dog's MRI results they would have to ask the owner and face the accusation of not "trusting their word"

Cavalier EBV's will be published, but this is not thought likely to be in the near future.

It was agreed that the KC would produce a report and the cavalier clubs would decide whether they would sign up or not.

So more foot dragging all round there.

The idea of not publishing results, if confirmed by the report, will be controversial to all those concerned with health & welfare issues. This would be the only official scheme where results are not openly published and would be seen as a worrying precedent for the KC to be setting.

In the meantime the uncaring commercial breeders will go on putting the puppies from risky breeding into the gene pool or selling them to the unsuspecting pet owner.

The newest BRS shows that our new KC health liaison representative mated his young champion dog at 14 months to a bitch who was 1 year 9 months.

The Cavalier Club MVD Guidelines say both parents should be at least 2 years 6 months.

The Cavalier Club SM guidelines say at least one parent should be scanned after 2 years 6 months, and be clear of SM.

I would love to know how he justifies his actions to himself, let alone to his regional club committee.

Kate H
7th February 2011, 07:51 PM
:sl*p: :swear: :bang:

And any other icon I can find! But thanks, Margaret.

Kate, Oliver and Aled

Bet
7th February 2011, 08:26 PM
:sl*p: :swear: :bang:

And any other icon I can find! But thanks, Margaret.

Kate, Oliver and Aled

BVA/KC SCHEME

At least we who care for our Cavalier Breed know where we stand now.

This is History Repeating it-self , when Dr Cattanach ,Geneticist ,and Bruce Field walked away in disgust when they were trying to help the Cavalier Club with the MVD Problem in Cavaliers. The Dog World News Paper was foll of what was going on at that time.

I still have the Cuttings of what was being said.

That was 20 years ago.

Unfortunately our Cavaliers are going to be suffering the same Fate with their SM Problem. , there are some making the Bullets and others Firing them.

Let us all who want to help the Researchers into those Two Problems in our Beloved Cavaliers , get in touch with the Dog Magazines and the News-Papers, let them know what is Happening in the Cavalier Breed, how just a few Self Centered Cavalier Breeders are doing their utmost to stop the Progress of trying to save Suffering of Cavaliers , let the Cavalier buying Public be told how SM affects Cavaliers,of their Screaming in Pain, of the Cost of medication to try and help the Pain they are having because of SM.

If the KC can't do any-thing about this, then let us all get across to the Cavalier Buying Public that to be buying a Cavalier at this time , is asking for Tears and Heart-Ache.

Tell the Prospective Buyers of Cavaliers ,only buy a Cavalier from a Cavalier Breeder who is following the Breeding Guide-Lines.

I am sure with Crufts coming shortly , the News-papers and Dog Magazines could have a Field Day when they are told about what a Sick Breed Cavaliers now are, and some Cavalier Breeders not wanting to move with times in Helping the Breed Survive.

Bet

RodRussell
7th February 2011, 11:22 PM
...Tell the Prospective Buyers of Cavaliers ,only buy a Cavalier from a Cavalier Breeder who is following the Breeding Guide-Lines. ...

I sure cannot argue with that part of your post, Bet. That has been the biggest problem: the combination of getting breeders to do only that, and educating buyers to insist upon it. That has been my main goal with respect to this breed, for the past 12 years. It has spawned at least one website.

sins
8th February 2011, 10:56 AM
Confidentiality!
The rock upon which this breed will perish...

Sins

Davecav
8th February 2011, 11:38 AM
Maybe it will perish because of all the negative publicity some people want it to have. That more than anything will make people avoid the breed, and breeders will throw in the towel.

A tiny minority of breeders who try their best (in the greater scheme of things) won't save the breed, if it really is as bad as some posters on this site say.

I must be one of the only people in the land who has had THREE healthy cavaliers over a number of years, if I'm to believe some of the gloom and doom posts here, which I try to avoid, I'ms surprised there are any cavaliers left.

Margaret C
8th February 2011, 12:53 PM
Maybe it will perish because of all the negative publicity some people want it to have. That more than anything will make people avoid the breed, and breeders will throw in the towel..

What do you think should happen, everyone keep quiet about the health problems? Will that make cavaliers' heart and syringomyelia problems go away?

Secrecy and denial about "scratching dogs" is why SM has become so widespread in the last few years.
There are breeders that strongly argued that SM was not any sort of problem in the breed, although they are now openly talking talking about the affected dogs in their homes.

The only thing that will save the breed is for informed and educated pet owners to be buying from informed and responsible breeders.


A tiny minority of breeders who try their best (in the greater scheme of things) won't save the breed, if it really is as bad as some posters on this site say..

Nobody is expecting you or anybody else you to take other people's word for the many problems that beset cavaliers.
Would it not be a good idea to go and read the reports that show how health compromised these little dogs have become?

Breed club members may be able to influence the outcome, if they wanted to, by establishing a nucleus of healthier breeding dogs and bitches.
The Dutch breeders have shown the breeding guidelines do help breed away from early onset SM.


I must be one of the only people in the land who has had THREE healthy cavaliers over a number of years, if I'm to believe some of the gloom and doom posts here, which I try to avoid, I'ms surprised there are any cavaliers left.

I am not sure whether you are a pet owner angry at what you see as disloyalty to the breed that has given you years of joy, or a breeder that objects to the expectations that responsible breeders will health test?

There have been many owners that were lucky with their cavaliers in the past, although I wonder if they all lived to the 14-15 years that a dog of the size and weight of a cavalier should reach?

Pet owner or breeder, I doubt whether many people will be so fortunate in the coming years.

sins
8th February 2011, 12:59 PM
I've been on this site for four years and was very dubious about all the initial reports about the incidence of medical conditions in the breed.I've been here before pedigree dogs exposed aired and I've seen the fallout and effects from all the arguments and disagreements on this and other forums.
I'm not interested in personalities or faction fighting.
I believe in the right of cavalier breeders to accentuate the positive and promote the values and the virtues of the breed...in fact I think it's the right thing to do and I wholeheartedly support it.
I have two cavaliers, a four old with severe SM but a healthy heart and a 16 month old who's only seen the vet for vaccinations and a microchip.I'm hoping to add no 3 next month.
These are the facts:
Despite choosing puppies from two 'A' parents,I have a 15% or greater chance of having a puppy who will develop a syrinx.
If I choose an 'A' to unknown status my chance increases to 50:50.
The lifetime risk in a study population of 802 cavaliers was estimated to be 55%
*(John Parker,Penny Knowler,Nick Jeffrey,TJ McKinley and Clare Rusbridge)
This is not something reported in a post,its an abstract available to view on the Cavalier Club website...backed up by four years of research.
Of all the stillborn whelps donated to the Foetal tissue research fund,all had the malformation.
CM alone has been demonstrated to cause pain in cavaliers.
I'm afraid there's very little good news in there....
The "good publicity" which needs to be highlighted is the cavalier club health initiatives and rupertsfund which helps to identify the verifiable healthy dogs.
The committed breeders who continue undeterred in the face of criticism are worthy of some good publicity.
It's true that some breeders will give up breeding...it's sad if we lose some good ones.
The power to generate "positive publicity" or "negative publicity" rests with the breeders themselves and the clubs with which responsibility rests to make decisions.
No raindrop ever thinks it's responsible for the puddle!!
But if confidentiality is the reason for neutering a potentially potent BVA/KC scheme,then the result will be a smokescreen...through which reckless breeders will remain hidden and even more unfortunately,health focused breeders will not be able to find their way through the haze to locate the healthiest stud dogs for their bitches.
This constant need to accommodate the lowest common denominator is deterimental to the prospects of the breed.
I expect Bet is right on this occasion,the canine press will be merciless and other breeds will be asking questions...like
"Why are concessions made for cavaliers and not for my breed when it comes to publication of results"?
"Why do we have to jump through hoops and submit our dogs to veterinary inspection because they show outward signs of poor health"?
"Why are we being threatened with removal of CCs when cavaliers are not"?
If the kennel club capitulate to the alleged demands,then I can't see how this will serve the best interests of the dogs.
Sins

Bet
8th February 2011, 01:00 PM
Maybe it will perish because of all the negative publicity some people want it to have. That more than anything will make people avoid the breed, and breeders will throw in the towel.

A tiny minority of breeders who try their best (in the greater scheme of things) won't save the breed, if it really is as bad as some posters on this site say.

I must be one of the only people in the land who has had THREE healthy cavaliers over a number of years, if I'm to believe some of the gloom and doom posts here, which I try to avoid, I'ms surprised there are any cavaliers left.


BVA/ KC SCHEME

Davecav

I would respectfully suggest to that you, for a change listen to what the Researchers are saying about the Cavalier Breed.

Yes, the way things are going , if the Researchers don't get the the Information and Help that they need, there won't be a Cavalier Breed left.

Rod, we are sure singing from the same Hymn Sheet.

For a while I thought we could Trust Cavalier Breeders not to put their Interest in making Money and Inflating their Egos from their Cavaliers , quite a Few Thankfully are not like this, but for the Others ,the only way is to let the Buyers of Cavaliers how very Sick the Breed is because of SM and MVD, that for those Cavalier Buyers to have any chance of having a Cavalier who could have a Healther ,Longer Life, only buy a Cavalier from a Cavalier Breeder who is following the Breeding Guidelines, and to show the Proof that this is being done.

Let those Prospective Cavalier Buyers know the Truth about the Health Problems in Cavaliers, that at the Moment they could have Many ,Many Tears watching the Suffering of their Beloved Cavaliers.

If those Cavalier Breeders ,Davecav ,won't help the Cavalier Breed by Following the Breeding Guidelines , then perhaps it will a good thing if as you say they they stop Breeding Cavaliers and Throw in the Towel, and the Breeding of Cavaliers is left to those Cavalier Breeders who Truly Wish the Cavalier Breed to have a Future and not be like those Cavalier Breeders who seem so determined in every way possible to hinder the Research into trying to Save the Suffering of Cavaliers.

Bet

Davecav
8th February 2011, 03:22 PM
Relpy to above posts

1. I am a pet owner.
2. I think all health results should be published - it makes perfect sense to me - a mere pet owner.
3. I don't think people should keep quiet about the health problems of any breed and I wasn't suggesting that for a minute!
4. I agree education is very important in all aspects of dog ownership, including inherited problems.
5. I don't however enjoy reading some posts where the poster sounds positively gleeful at the thought that the press will have a field day and cavaliers will become extinct. It's almost ghoulish. Cavaliers are much too nice to lose so I'm going to stick up for them whether you like it or not. and I'm not going to be made to feel as if I haven't the right to enjoy my healthy dogs - and that they should in fact be about to drop dead at any moment.
5. I have' respectfully' read what researchers have to say - I can't help it it is all over the internet (which is a really excellent tool to get things into the public view)

Margaret C
8th February 2011, 06:28 PM
Cavaliers are much too nice to lose so I'm going to stick up for them whether you like it or not.

I agree they are much too nice to lose, which is why health campaigners are trying so hard to ensure a future for them.


and I'm not going to be made to feel as if I haven't the right to enjoy my healthy dogs - and that they should in fact be about to drop dead at any moment.

I'm sorry if it was my post that gave you that impression.

Of course you have the right to enjoy your healthy dogs.
I have had cavaliers for thirty five years and have had a wonderful time owning them. I delighted in seeing them racing along the beach or running through the woods.
Nevertheless too many in the last few years have been affected early with MVD & SM.



I have' respectfully' read what researchers have to say - I can't help it it is all over the internet (which is a really excellent tool to get things into the public view)

Then you are well informed about the realities of the situation. Hopefully many others will be reading the same reports and doing their homework before they buy a cavalier.

anniemac
8th February 2011, 06:59 PM
Dave, You should enjoy your healthy cavaliers just like new puppy owners who read things and get scared.

Everyone should enjoy those moments while I know you are educated about symptoms of SM, I do think others should be aware but not to the point to enjoy their loved cavaliers.

That being said, I wish Ella was not struggling right now, but I too need to enjoy her. It breaks my heart to hear that both sets of parents and my uncle wanted cavaliers but now are scared that they will have this health condition.

I will always want cavaliers and I have to tell them facts are there are no guarantees. Just with everything but even if a breeder does all they can there is still a possibility. I choose to support breeders who are open and tell me there is a chance, do everything to follow protocols and contribute to research by having DNA and results sent. If something happens and they get offspring with a health condition then even though it would be heartbreaking they did everything they could.

Now if it would be easier for those breeders to find others to help their chances of finding a good match, then those breeders might want it open. Maybe there is already a circle who have to call and ask etc. I have no idea.

I live in the united states and I know until recently or even now a lot of people don't know about SM. Rod might be able to say but I'm not sure when either club listed it on their websites. People should know to be able to support those breeders who do what they can to contribute. There are some not the majority of breeders.

They are in demand.





Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Bet
8th February 2011, 07:36 PM
Relpy to above posts

1. I am a pet owner.
2. I think all health results should be published - it makes perfect sense to me - a mere pet owner.
3. I don't think people should keep quiet about the health problems of any breed and I wasn't suggesting that for a minute!
4. I agree education is very important in all aspects of dog ownership, including inherited problems.
5. I don't however enjoy reading some posts where the poster sounds positively gleeful at the thought that the press will have a field day and cavaliers will become extinct. It's almost ghoulish. Cavaliers are much too nice to lose so I'm going to stick up for them whether you like it or not. and I'm not going to be made to feel as if I haven't the right to enjoy my healthy dogs - and that they should in fact be about to drop dead at any moment.
5. I have' respectfully' read what researchers have to say - I can't help it it is all over the internet (which is a really excellent tool to get things into the public view)


BVA/KC SCHEME


Davecav

I am certainly not being Ghoulish about the Health of our Cavalier Breed .

If you had been fighting for their Right to have the Chance of Healthier ,Longer Lives as long as I have you maybe could understand why there are some of us wanting all Cavaliers to have that chance.

At first it was the Softly ,Softly Approach and Pleading with Cavalier Breeders , I will say again, thankfully not them all , just the Die Hards, who would not accept that the Cavaliers had the MVD problem Afflicting them.

Now it is the same Attitude with a Certain few Breeders about the Cavaliers' SM Problem.

See how they are trying to Stone- Wall the MRI Scanning Scheme.

I now have realized that it will be only by using the Shock Tactics that were shown in the Pedigree Dogs Exposed TV of the Cavalier Screaming in Pain from SM,that will get the Message over to the Cavalier Buying Public, that the Cavalier Breed is in Serious Trouble because of their SM and MVD Problems.

That is where to start !

This is going to be the only way to Try and give our Cavaliers a Future.

Why do you think Davecav that we are not Sticking up for them, when it's been shown that some Cavalier Breeders are not following the Breeding Guidelines ,and trying to Hinder the Researchers in their Research into SM and MVD?

I would say that we are doing more to try and Save the Cavaliers from Suffering Needless Pain and Early Deaths than what those Few Self- Centered Cavalier Breeders are doing at the moment.

So Davecav , all I can say is , I will take no Lectures from you on how now I believe that the Prospective Cavalier Buyers should be being informed about the Health Troubles of our Cavalier Breed ,and that the Cavalier they want to buy should only be bought from a Cavalier Breeder who cares enough about Cavaliers having a Future and is following the Breeding Guideline Recomendations of not Breeding from a Cavalier before 2.5 years age and has no Health Problems and the Parents also have no Health Problems at 5 .

What is your Suggestion on how to be giving our Beloved Cavaliers the Chance of Healthier, Longer Lives ?

I would sure love to hear what you advise.

Bet

PS, I also have been a Cavalier Pet Owner , and am trying to save other Cavalier Owners going through the Many Tears and Heart- ache that we had ,watching our Cavaliers suffering and dying young from MVD.

What is wrong , please tell me in doing the only way I know how , to give our Cavaliers a Chance ,as I said of Healthier, Longer Lives?

Bet
9th February 2011, 12:17 PM
I've been on this site for four years and was very dubious about all the initial reports about the incidence of medical conditions in the breed.I've been here before pedigree dogs exposed aired and I've seen the fallout and effects from all the arguments and disagreements on this and other forums.
I'm not interested in personalities or faction fighting.
I believe in the right of cavalier breeders to accentuate the positive and promote the values and the virtues of the breed...in fact I think it's the right thing to do and I wholeheartedly support it.
I have two cavaliers, a four old with severe SM but a healthy heart and a 16 month old who's only seen the vet for vaccinations and a microchip.I'm hoping to add no 3 next month.
These are the facts:
Despite choosing puppies from two 'A' parents,I have a 15% or greater chance of having a puppy who will develop a syrinx.
If I choose an 'A' to unknown status my chance increases to 50:50.
The lifetime risk in a study population of 802 cavaliers was estimated to be 55%
*(John Parker,Penny Knowler,Nick Jeffrey,TJ McKinley and Clare Rusbridge)
This is not something reported in a post,its an abstract available to view on the Cavalier Club website...backed up by four years of research.
Of all the stillborn whelps donated to the Foetal tissue research fund,all had the malformation.
CM alone has been demonstrated to cause pain in cavaliers.
I'm afraid there's very little good news in there....
The "good publicity" which needs to be highlighted is the cavalier club health initiatives and rupertsfund which helps to identify the verifiable healthy dogs.
The committed breeders who continue undeterred in the face of criticism are worthy of some good publicity.
It's true that some breeders will give up breeding...it's sad if we lose some good ones.
The power to generate "positive publicity" or "negative publicity" rests with the breeders themselves and the clubs with which responsibility rests to make decisions.
No raindrop ever thinks it's responsible for the puddle!!
But if confidentiality is the reason for neutering a potentially potent BVA/KC scheme,then the result will be a smokescreen...through which reckless breeders will remain hidden and even more unfortunately,health focused breeders will not be able to find their way through the haze to locate the healthiest stud dogs for their bitches.
This constant need to accommodate the lowest common denominator is deterimental to the prospects of the breed.
I expect Bet is right on this occasion,the canine press will be merciless and other breeds will be asking questions...like
"Why are concessions made for cavaliers and not for my breed when it comes to publication of results"?
"Why do we have to jump through hoops and submit our dogs to veterinary inspection because they show outward signs of poor health"?
"Why are we being threatened with removal of CCs when cavaliers are not"?
If the kennel club capitulate to the alleged demands,then I can't see how this will serve the best interests of the dogs.
Sins


BVA/KC SCHEME


Thanks Sins for your Post.

I just cannot see how the Cavalier Health Problems can improve if Buyers of Cavaliers are not told the Truth about their SM and MVD Problems.

I have just Printed off from the UK CKCS CLUB WEB SITE this Statement that will apply to the Debacle that happened at last week's Meeting between the CKCS Regional CLUB Representatives and the KC about the need for MRI Screening by some of the Hard Core Cavalier Breeders trying to Stymie the MRI Scanning Scheme from going ahead.

They shoud be hanging their Heads in Shame about what they are trying to do.

What is their Quarrel with the KC and the Researchers , do they not believe that Cavaliers have Genetically Inherited Diseases?

Perhaps they will put their Heads Above the Parapet and say that this is their Reason for not wanting to help in the Research into those Diseases.

" HEALTHY FUTURE"

IT IS HOPED THAT HEALTH SCREENING WILL EVENTUALLY MINIMISE CONDITIONS RELATED TO GENETICALLY INHERITED DISEASE IN CAVALIERS .

The Statement goes onto say that Further Research supported by the Kennel Club Charitable Trust is being carried out by the Animal Health Trust and will aim to Assist Breeding from Healthy Stock , the Cavaliers' Annual Heart Test Certificate and MRI Scan be sent to Dr S.Blott at the AHT.

Bet

Bet
10th February 2011, 12:09 PM
BVA/KC SCHEME


Thanks Sins for your Post.

I just cannot see how the Cavalier Health Problems can improve if Buyers of Cavaliers are not told the Truth about their SM and MVD Problems.

I have just Printed off from the UK CKCS CLUB WEB SITE this Statement that will apply to the Debacle that happened at last week's Meeting between the CKCS Regional CLUB Representatives and the KC about the need for MRI Screening by some of the Hard Core Cavalier Breeders trying to Stymie the MRI Scanning Scheme from going ahead.

They shoud be hanging their Heads in Shame about what they are trying to do.

What is their Quarrel with the KC and the Researchers , do they not believe that Cavaliers have Genetically Inherited Diseases?

Perhaps they will put their Heads Above the Parapet and say that this is their Reason for not wanting to help in the Research into those Diseases.

" HEALTHY FUTURE"

IT IS HOPED THAT HEALTH SCREENING WILL EVENTUALLY MINIMISE CONDITIONS RELATED TO GENETICALLY INHERITED DISEASE IN CAVALIERS .

The Statement goes onto say that Further Research supported by the Kennel Club Charitable Trust is being carried out by the Animal Health Trust and will aim to Assist Breeding from Healthy Stock , the Cavaliers' Annual Heart Test Certificate and MRI Scan be sent to Dr S.Blott at the AHT.

Bet


BVA/KC SCHEME


There is an Article in this week's DOG WORLD about the Recent Meeting held last week about the KC wanting to Record and Publish the Results of the Screening .

I put on a comment mentioning that the Stumbling Block for this to be going ahead, was that some Cavalier Breeders don't want the Results made Public.

My Comment was whipped off within minutes!!

What is it with some Cavalier Breeders ,they will Broadcast the Fact that their Vet says he hardly ever sees a Cavalier with SM, but will not take the evidence from the Researchers that it is a Serious Health Problem Afflicting Cavaliers.

Until they agree that all their Cavalier Breeding Stock is MRI Scanned, the word of a Vet is of no use to any-body.

This has to be done, so that the Cavalier Buying Public has confidence in buying a Cavalier.

Those Prospective Cavalier Buyers must be shown a Certificate to show that both MVD and MRI Scans have been done, not to have to ASK to see a Certificate to Prove that this has been carried out.

Is it a Co-incidence that the Registration Cavalier Figures have fallen so Dramatically in the last 2 years?

Do the Cavalier Buying Public want more Honesty from Cavalier Breeders?

As I have said before , there are some Cavalier Breeders who are doing all they can to try to give our Cavaliers a Future ,but the Hard Core are determined not to be helping the Researchers .

Could this also be a result of the Cavalier Registrations falling so much ,that the Cavalier Buying Public are now aware about the Health Problems our Breed has, ..

Surely those Cavalier Breeders who are putting all the Obstacles in the way of the Researches, will have to realize that they are part of the Problem not the Solution of why the Public seems to be not wanting to buy a Cavalier.

Bet

Bet
10th February 2011, 01:19 PM
BVA/KC SCHEME


There is an Article in this week's DOG WORLD about the Recent Meeting held last week about the KC wanting to Record and Publish the Results of the Screening .

I put on a comment mentioning that the Stumbling Block for this to be going ahead, was that some Cavalier Breeders don't want the Results made Public.

My Comment was whipped off within minutes!!

What is it with some Cavalier Breeders ,they will Broadcast the Fact that their Vet says he hardly ever sees a Cavalier with SM, but will not take the evidence from the Researchers that it is a Serious Health Problem Afflicting Cavaliers.

Until they agree that all their Cavalier Breeding Stock is MRI Scanned, the word of a Vet is of no use to any-body.

This has to be done, so that the Cavalier Buying Public has confidence in buying a Cavalier.

Those Prospective Cavalier Buyers must be shown a Certificate to show that both MVD and MRI Scans have been done, not to have to ASK to see a Certificate to Prove that this has been carried out.

Is it a Co-incidence that the Registration Cavalier Figures have fallen so Dramatically in the last 2 years?

Do the Cavalier Buying Public want more Honesty from Cavalier Breeders?

As I have said before , there are some Cavalier Breeders who are doing all they can to try to give our Cavaliers a Future ,but the Hard Core are determined not to be helping the Researchers .

Could this also be a result of the Cavalier Registrations falling so much ,that the Cavalier Buying Public are now aware about the Health Problems our Breed has, ..

Surely those Cavalier Breeders who are putting all the Obstacles in the way of the Researches, will have to realize that they are part of the Problem not the Solution of why the Public seems to be not wanting to buy a Cavalier.

Bet


BVA/KC SCHEME

Should have Emphasized the Fact that unless a Vet has MRI'd a Cavalier he won't have a Clue as to whether the Cavalier has SM or not.

Yes, he can hear a Heart Murmur,but not be able to say whether a Cavalier has SM or not, that is a job for the Experts, the Neurologists.

Bet

Margaret C
10th February 2011, 02:10 PM
These are the facts:
Despite choosing puppies from two 'A' parents,I have a 15% or greater chance of having a puppy who will develop a syrinx.
If I choose an 'A' to unknown status my chance increases to 50:50.
The lifetime risk in a study population of 802 cavaliers was estimated to be 55%
*(John Parker,Penny Knowler,Nick Jeffrey,TJ McKinley and Clare Rusbridge)
This is not something reported in a post,its an abstract available to view on the Cavalier Club website...backed up by four years of research.
Of all the stillborn whelps donated to the Foetal tissue research fund,all had the malformation.
CM alone has been demonstrated to cause pain in cavaliers.
I'm afraid there's very little good news in there....

And this is not the only serious inherited health problem. 50% of the breed has a heart murmur at five years of age




The power to generate "positive publicity" or "negative publicity" rests with the breeders themselves and the clubs with which responsibility rests to make decisions.
No raindrop ever thinks it's responsible for the puddle!!
But if confidentiality is the reason for neutering a potentially potent BVA/KC scheme,then the result will be a smokescreen...through which reckless breeders will remain hidden and even more unfortunately,health focused breeders will not be able to find their way through the haze to locate the healthiest stud dogs for their bitches.


The breeders that oppose this scheme have never stated what their opposition is based on. What is there in this scheme that can in anyway be detrimental to cavaliers as a breed that is struggling to survive?

Nobody has to use the scheme if they don't want to.

Publication of results would stop breeders from claiming they have scanned and obtained good results, but surely that should be seen as a positive aspect of the scheme, not a reason to destroy it?

There is a short news report in Dog World. http://www.dogworld.co.uk/News/06-Cavalier.aspx

"REPRESENTATIVES of all the Cavalier clubs were present at a recent meeting to discuss the breed’s health issues.
The meeting, at the Kennel Club building at Stoneleigh, was led by KC geneticist Jeff Sampson, Mike Herrtage of Cambridge Veterinary School, and Dr Sarah Blott and Dr Tom Lewis of the Animal Health Trust; the latter two are compiling estimated breeding values (EBVs) for all Cavaliers in the UK.
The aim of EBVs is to allow breeders to select against health problems such as mitral valve disease and syringomyelia (SM), while safeguarding the long-term health of the breed by maintaining genetic diversity. In order to do this, a huge amount of health data – including heart test results and results of MRI scans for signs of SM – need to be collected and the pedigree of the dogs known.
A proposal for the way in which the KC could record and publish results was suggested to those at the meeting on Thursday of last week, and it was agreed that this would be taken back to the clubs, the KC and the British Veterinary Association (BVA) for discussion ‘and hopefully approval’, a KC spokesman said.
“The need for a proposal arose because it was clear that there was a need to encourage participation in the new scheme and aid speedy data collection,” she said. “Simply following the way in which other BVA/KC scheme data is recorded and published is unlikely to achieve this at this time.”

Perhaps those that do not want to accept the scheme will take the opportunity to use the comment section?
I already have.



and other breeds will be asking questions...like
"Why are concessions made for cavaliers and not for my breed when it comes to publication of results"?
"Why do we have to jump through hoops and submit our dogs to veterinary inspection because they show outward signs of poor health"?
"Why are we being threatened with removal of CCs when cavaliers are not"?
If the kennel club capitulate to the alleged demands,then I can't see how this will serve the best interests of the dogs.
Sins

The problem for the Kennel Club is that the whole of their future strategy for dealing with inherited health conditions & loss of genetic diversity seems to be pinned on bringing in EBVs for all breeds.

They must have 'robust' health results for the EBV scheme to work.

Margaret C
10th February 2011, 03:05 PM
Recording and Publication of Results for Cavalier King Charles Spaniels (CKCS) issued under the proposed BVA/KC CM/SM (Chiari-like Malformation / Syringomyelia) Scheme
A meeting was held on, Thurs 3rd Feb, at the Kennel Club Building at Stoneleigh Park of invited representatives of the CKCS breed clubs, the KC, the BVA Canine Health Schemes and experts representing the specialists who have developed the Scheme protocol and scientists who are developing estimated breeding values at the Animal Health Trust (AHT).

The purpose of the meeting was to discuss recording and publication of results issued under the proposed CM/SM Scheme by the Kennel Club.

A proposal for the way in which the KC could record and publish results was suggested to the attendees at the meeting and it was agreed that the proposal would be taken back to the clubs, the Kennel Club and the British Veterinary Association for discussion.

The need for a proposal arose because it was clear that the was a need to encourage participation in the new Scheme and aid speedy data collection and that simply following the way in which other BVA/KC Scheme data is recorded and published was unlikely to achieve this at this time.



Proposal for the recording and publication of results by the Kennel Club issued under the new BVA/KC CM/SM (Chiari-like Malformation / Syringomyelia) Scheme.
All CM and SM grades will be recorded on the screened dog’s KC registration record.
All CM and SM results and dogs’ details will automatically be passed to the AHT for research purposes.
Neither CM or SM grades will be published, nor will they be accessible via the Health Test Result Finder.
What will be published, next to the CM/SM Scheme name (i.e. BVA/KC CMSM Scheme, is the fact that the dog has been screened (MRI scanned) and its age at the time of screening (e.g. Screened at 4 yrs 6 months).
Publication of the date of screening and age of dog will appear on KC registration certificates, the Breed Records Supplement and will be accessible via the Health Test Results Finder.
Dogs that have not been MRI scanned under the Scheme will be identified as having ‘no result recorded’. This information will be available on the Health Test Result Finder and will also appear on any new registration certificate issued for the dog and on the registration certificates of any of the dog’s future progeny.
Since SM appears to be a progressive disease, the same dog might have more than one MRI scan, taken at different ages, so any new scan result will replace an existing result.
It is intended that this recording and publication plan remain in place until such time as Estimated Breeding Values (EBVs) are available for this breed, at which time we will engage in consultation with a view to publishing the EBV for individual dogs.

sins
10th February 2011, 03:30 PM
Ok .. Thanks for that link Margaret,
That makes sense now..
Sins

Bet
10th February 2011, 06:46 PM
Recording and Publication of Results for Cavalier King Charles Spaniels (CKCS) issued under the proposed BVA/KC CM/SM (Chiari-like Malformation / Syringomyelia) Scheme
A meeting was held on, Thurs 3rd Feb, at the Kennel Club Building at Stoneleigh Park of invited representatives of the CKCS breed clubs, the KC, the BVA Canine Health Schemes and experts representing the specialists who have developed the Scheme protocol and scientists who are developing estimated breeding values at the Animal Health Trust (AHT).

The purpose of the meeting was to discuss recording and publication of results issued under the proposed CM/SM Scheme by the Kennel Club.

A proposal for the way in which the KC could record and publish results was suggested to the attendees at the meeting and it was agreed that the proposal would be taken back to the clubs, the Kennel Club and the British Veterinary Association for discussion.

The need for a proposal arose because it was clear that the was a need to encourage participation in the new Scheme and aid speedy data collection and that simply following the way in which other BVA/KC Scheme data is recorded and published was unlikely to achieve this at this time.



Proposal for the recording and publication of results by the Kennel Club issued under the new BVA/KC CM/SM (Chiari-like Malformation / Syringomyelia) Scheme.
All CM and SM grades will be recorded on the screened dog’s KC registration record.
All CM and SM results and dogs’ details will automatically be passed to the AHT for research purposes.
Neither CM or SM grades will be published, nor will they be accessible via the Health Test Result Finder.
What will be published, next to the CM/SM Scheme name (i.e. BVA/KC CMSM Scheme, is the fact that the dog has been screened (MRI scanned) and its age at the time of screening (e.g. Screened at 4 yrs 6 months).
Publication of the date of screening and age of dog will appear on KC registration certificates, the Breed Records Supplement and will be accessible via the Health Test Results Finder.
Dogs that have not been MRI scanned under the Scheme will be identified as having ‘no result recorded’. This information will be available on the Health Test Result Finder and will also appear on any new registration certificate issued for the dog and on the registration certificates of any of the dog’s future progeny.
Since SM appears to be a progressive disease, the same dog might have more than one MRI scan, taken at different ages, so any new scan result will replace an existing result.
It is intended that this recording and publication plan remain in place until such time as Estimated Breeding Values (EBVs) are available for this breed, at which time we will engage in consultation with a view to publishing the EBV for individual dogs.



BVA/KC SCHEME

Does this mean that any Cavalier not MRI Scanned and have No Result Recorded

that the Cavalier Breeder has Chickened out of having that Particular Cavalier MRI Scanned.

So the Questioned will have to be being asked.

WHY.!!!!!!

Bet

Margaret C
17th February 2011, 10:01 PM
I have just written a blog in the hope that owners of cavaliers with SM will give their views to the BVA and KC.

There are email addresses and I have put a draft letter as well for anyone that thinks it may help.

Wagtails
18th February 2011, 09:48 AM
Well done, Margaret - that will be helpful to many of us cl*p

Bet
19th February 2011, 10:47 AM
Well done, Margaret - that will be helpful to many of us cl*p


BVA/KC SCHEME


There seems to be some Cavalier Breeders having the Vapours at the Moment about the Publication of the Results of the MRI SCANS ,one of their Excuses is that the Cavalier Buying Public won't understand them.

The answer to that is simple ,if a Prospective Cavalier Buyer knows a Cavalier has been MRI SCANNED , and is not sure what the Grades mean ,then ask the Cavalier Breeder to explain them.

That will save the Buyers of Cavaliers having the Embarrassment of having to ask to see a MRI Scan and in some cases being Verbally Abused because they have dared to ask if Breeders' Cavalier has been MRI Scanned.

I know this has happened when some Buyers of Cavaliers have asked to see a Certificate to see whether the Cavalier's Parents have been Heart Tested or not.

I hope now it is realized how important the KVS/KC MRI Scheme is not just for Cavalier Breeders and the Researchers into SM ,but for the Cavalier Buying Public to go ahead with the results of the Scans being Published,that the E-Mail Address given by Margaret given and Carol are contacted.

Bet

Bet
19th February 2011, 02:22 PM
BVA/KC SCHEME


There seems to be some Cavalier Breeders having the Vapours at the Moment about the Publication of the Results of the MRI SCANS ,one of their Excuses is that the Cavalier Buying Public won't understand them.

The answer to that is simple ,if a Prospective Cavalier Buyer knows a Cavalier has been MRI SCANNED , and is not sure what the Grades mean ,then ask the Cavalier Breeder to explain them.

That will save the Buyers of Cavaliers having the Embarrassment of having to ask to see a MRI Scan and in some cases being Verbally Abused because they have dared to ask if Breeders' Cavalier has been MRI Scanned.

I know this has happened when some Buyers of Cavaliers have asked to see a Certificate to see whether the Cavalier's Parents have been Heart Tested or not.

I hope now it is realized how important the KVS/KC MRI Scheme is not just for Cavalier Breeders and the Researchers into SM ,but for the Cavalier Buying Public to go ahead with the results of the Scans being Published,that the E-Mail Address given by Margaret given and Carol are contacted.

Bet

BVA/KC SCHEME


I have just been sent a Private E-Mail accusing me of lying in my above Post ,this is the last time I will make use of the List like this ,but in-case there other List members wonder about the Proof I have of Prospective Cavalier Puppy Buyers at the Receiving end of being Verbally Abused by a UK CKCS CLUB Breeder ,here goes.

I was a Cavalier Breed Advisor for a few years for the Dogs Today Magazine.

I got a List of Cavalier Puppies available from the UK CKCS CLUB .

When any-one phoned me about wanting a Cavalier Puppy ,I gave him or her the the Name of a CKCS CLUB Breeder who had one for sale, but ALWAYS said to ask to see a Heart Certificate from the Breeder that the Puppy's Parents had no Heart Trouble.

A number of those Cavalier Buyers phoned me back in Tears and in a Terrible State about the Verbal Abuse they had been given ,this was from UK CKCS CLUB Members who were Cavalier Breeders.

So Clarissa, I not give your E-Mail address on the List , but you must be following my Posts, so no more PM's .



Bet