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Tania
25th February 2011, 06:51 PM
I have been told there is an article in the ourdogs paper recently about banning the Breeding of the Cavalier. I have not got the paper but found an article online. These are the statistics within the article.


How do these figures compare to the Cavaliers in the UK


Figures on health problems in the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel: (Netherlands)

95% (CM) of dogs Chiari-like malformation (CM) (a skull too small).
50% have the complete picture of Chiari-like malformation and syringomyelia (CM / SM) with symptoms like chronic pain or itching and / or epilepsy. The disease in humans is seen as one of the most painful that exist (but is fortunately very rare in humans).
40% have heart murmur (100% for over 10 years). 52% die of these heart problems;
20-30% (Patella Luxatie); 20-30% have chronic knee problems (Patellar Luxation);
30% suffer from chronic eye disease;
40% have an ear disease (PSOM), which only occurs in Cavaliers
10 % (at least) has hip dysplasia.







http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=nl&u=http://dierenrecht.org/los-persbericht/%3Ftx_ttnews%255Btt_news%255D%3D758%26cHash%3Dd949 ddc897&ei=qOdnTYyFBIOahQf_pZGiDw&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CC4Q7gEwAg&prev=/search%3Fq%3DHans%2BBaaij%2Bcavalier%26hl%3Den%26s a%3DX%26rlz%3D1G1SVEA_ENUK419%26prmd%3Divnso

renate
25th February 2011, 07:20 PM
i have never heard of the cavalier breed being about to be banned in Denmark.
the article, i think, mentions the netherlands, which is Holland.:confused:

but the cavalier breed in Denmark is not particularily healthy.
until a few years ago the average life time of a cavalier was 7-8 years. which is not much.....

now there is a heart program, and an sm program on the way.
everybody can have their cavalier's heart ultrasound scanned (including colour Doppler) for free, and there are breeding restictions for dogs with heart problems.

i am under the impression that serious measures are being taken to highten the standard of health in the cav. breed in Denmark.

Bet
25th February 2011, 07:50 PM
i have never heard of the cavalier breed being about to be banned in Denmark.
the article, i think, mentions the netherlands, which is Holland.:confused:

but the cavalier breed in Denmark is not particularily healthy.
until a few years ago the average life time of a cavalier was 7-8 years. which is not much.....

now there is a heart program, and an sm program on the way.
everybody can have their cavalier's heart ultrasound scanned (including colour Doppler) for free, and there are breeding restictions for dogs with heart problems.

i am under the impression that serious measures are being taken to highten the standard of health in the cav. breed in Denmark.

BANNING THE BREEDING OF CAVALIERS IN DENMARK

Tania,

Here are some British Figures to compare with those in Danish Cavaliers.

For CM the British Cavaliers must be about the same for CM,what could be more worrying though is that of the 85 Whelps Researched Recently ,all had CM.

Is this an indication of how wide-spread the CM Problem is in our British Cavaliers?

What a dreadful thought

The 50% of CM/SM seems to be about the same ,according to the Researchers.

Our Cavaliers are said by the MVD Researchers are 50% with Heart Murmurs at 5-6 years of Age ,that is higher ,and this is no better than it was 18 years ago.

100% having Heart Murmurs at 10 is about the same ,

I don't know any of the Figures for other Health Problems in our British Cavaliers.

Bet

anniemac
25th February 2011, 08:05 PM
Would like to know if it is just cavaliers? What about the other pure breed dogs? More information but feel this is not what research should be used to do. Ban the breed, why not focus on how to use the data? What about changing standard?

I think education and stricter breeding protocols, however is the netherlands where they already had something in place?

I am confused b/c when I searched unhealthy dog breeds the pet insurance study in 2008 was all I found and cavaliers were not on there. Does anyone have more research and comparision to other breeds?

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Desrae
25th February 2011, 08:25 PM
Wow, that's amazing, and sad... I admire Denmark for taking a stand in the situation. I hope it improves things for cavalier owners there, twould be a pity if they couldn't own them anymore.

Blondiemonster
25th February 2011, 08:45 PM
There are other dogbreeds who have very serious problems. Why not ban all of them then? At least Denmark acknowledges the problem. Although banning is not a solution.

anniemac
25th February 2011, 09:04 PM
There are other dogbreeds who have very serious problems. Why not ban all of them then? At least Denmark acknowledges the problem. Although banning is not a solution.

Exactly. Knowledge and information on health is vital but what one does with it, is even more important. Denmark has a great approach :)

We have research and tools but a ban is something I don't understand. Did they ban German shepherds?


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Tania
25th February 2011, 10:48 PM
What about changing standard?


This is what we have and are still fighting for!

There is a new scheme being introduced where all data will be sucked out of Veterinary practices into a central information centre. This will then give accurate information regarding all breeds.

I agree there are a lot of breeds in trouble. Do you not think the Cavalier endure some of the worst and most devastating painful conditions? I adore Cavaliers but part of me wishes they would stop breeding them!

Thank you Bet for the information.

MishathePooh
25th February 2011, 11:22 PM
What about crossing with other breeds to help eliminate some of the problems.

I think Pedigrees Exposed had a segment on a man who highly reduced or eliminated the uric acid problem in dalmatians by crossbreeding other dogs into the line. It was a highly dilute cross, meaning the dogs were really still dalmations - but very effective at solving the issue at hand.

We keep breeding for certain physical characteristics that are supposed to make dogs better at their jobs - but grossly overshoot the mark leading only to tragic consequences. Ideally, dogs best suited to their jobs would be bred - ie a border collie that is excellent at herding or a cavalier who has nursing home certification. Healthy, happy dogs. Not dogs trying to conform to an ideal that no longer makes sense!

anniemac
26th February 2011, 12:10 AM
This is what we have and are still fighting for!

There is a new scheme being introduced where all data will be sucked out of Veterinary practices into a central information centre. This will then give accurate information regarding all breeds.

I agree there are a lot of breeds in trouble. Do you not think the Cavalier endure some of the worst and most devastating painful conditions? I adore Cavaliers but part of me wishes they would stop breeding them!

Thank you Bet for the information.

No one wants to go through this. That question is a no win answer. Yes, but so do others. Breeding not the breed, education but banning, I don't think I will comment.

Please clarify that the research on cavaliers for SM is not connected in any way to this scheme. If I read it as one thing others may.




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anniemac
26th February 2011, 02:45 AM
Tania,

I only have ella and don't know other breeds but I think if they ban one why not others like German shepherds, pugs, griffons

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Jane P
26th February 2011, 08:27 AM
I agree there are a lot of breeds in trouble. Do you not think the Cavalier endure some of the worst and most devastating painful conditions? I adore Cavaliers but part of me wishes they would stop breeding them!


:xctly:

Bet
26th February 2011, 10:24 AM
:xctly:


BANNING THE BREEDING OF CAVALIERS IN DENMARK.


Could I add this information to this Thread,the Chairman of the CAVALIER HEALTH LIASON COMMITTEE,is the same Person a Cavalier Breeder, who spent Two years protesting to every Layer of the BBC'S COMPLAINTS and APPEALS Process until it reached the Corporation's Govering Body ,only to see it Overturned once again.

This was Reported in DOG WORLD at the beginning of May 2010.

One of his complaints was that that when the Pedigree Dogs Exposed TV Film was shown ,it made it appear that Cavaliers' had Ten Size Brains in Size Six Skulls ,this was a Reference to SM.

We now know the Truth about this , it has been recently stated that CM is Chacterized with Brains too Big and Skulls too Small . CM and SM are involved to-gether I believe.

His other complaints were that 30% of Cavaliers could be affected by SM had no Proof , those figures have now shown to be Higher.

There were other Complaints, this from a Person who is the Chairman of the Cavalier Health Liason Committee. !!!!

We now have a Person who is a Health Represenative for the Cavalier Club who will not reveal the details of the MRI Scans of her Cavaliers , because they are for her information only, the other Health Representative does not believe that 50% have a Heart Murmur at 5-6 years of ,the reason being thay she has not seen this Figure in her Cavaliers.

These are the Folk who are trying to save the Cavalier Breed from Distinction .

With the Cavaliers' Health Figures given in this Thread ,is it not rediculous that People with those Views are involved with the Health Problems in the Cavalier Breed,at least Maggie Ford was trying to get their Health Problems improved ,and look what happened to her.

Bet

sins
26th February 2011, 12:38 PM
The Ourdogs article refers to Dutch cavalier breeding.
**************************************showthread.php?4909-Dutch-Cavaliers&p=38171#post38171
The full thread can be viewed on the cavalierchat forum.

Sins

Bet
26th February 2011, 01:38 PM
The Ourdogs article refers to Dutch cavalier breeding.
**************************************showthread.php?4909-Dutch-Cavaliers&p=38171#post38171
The full thread can be viewed on the cavalierchat forum.

Sins

BANNING THE BREEDING OF CAVALIERS IN DENMARK.

Whether Denmark or Holland the Cavaliers have to be Banned from being Bred from, to us here in Britain it is who is the Chair-man of the CAVALIER HEALTH LIASON COMMITTEE ,I would think will be giving the most concern to those trying to improve the Cavaliers' SM and MVD Health Problems, also the Two Other Health Repersentatives for the UK CKCS CLUB ,who have publicly expressed their Views about those Two Particular Cavalier Health Problems.

How can they be giving Honest Opinions about SM and MVD.

Bet

sins
26th February 2011, 02:03 PM
Cavaliers do NOT have to be banned from being bred from Bet.
If you read the article,it's an allegation that an animal rights group have demanded that cavaliers are not bred from in the short term or they'll threaten to go to court to TRY to obtain a ban.
It seems a bit silly that a country would ban breeding of cavaliers when it's perfectly legal to breed them elsewhere in Europe and import them freely.
Seems it might just be an organisation looking for a bit of publicity.
It takes a lot of work and money to launch a legal case like that and build a copperfast argument.
It seems daft to support a bunch of wasters like that when energy is better invested in supporting decent breeders who are trying to actually achieve something with cavalier health through skill,hard work and committed testing of their stock.
Sins

Fifer
26th February 2011, 02:29 PM
energy is better invested in supporting decent breeders who are trying to actually achieve something with cavalier health through skill,hard work and committed testing of their stock.
Sins

Couldn't agree more. :thmbsup:

As an 'outsider' I do wish more time and energy were devoted to breeding healthy animals and health issues per se by clubs and less resources wasted on 'politics'. I wholeheartedly support anyone devoted to "breeding out" health problems in any breed, an exercise which is extremely costly to the committed.

The extinction of the CKCS as a breed is not something I'd like to see; they are a wonderful breed and temperamentally (for the most part) streets ahead of some breeds.

RodRussell
26th February 2011, 03:02 PM
The Ourdogs article refers to Dutch cavalier breeding.
**************************************showthread.php?4909-Dutch-Cavaliers&p=38171#post38171
The full thread can be viewed on the cavalierchat forum.

Sins

Thanks, Sins. That newspaper article shows, I think, that this is a long-shot effort by this group. I certainly hope so. It looks like the group thinks it can pick off some "low-hanging fruit" to make a point and get some publicity from such an extreme position.

There is absolutely no reason to totally stop breeding cavaliers. The whole point of the advocates of health testing and following breeding protocols is to breed away from these genetic disorders. Following the protocols necessarily calls for breeding fewer litters by fewer sires and dams, but don't blame the health advocates for what some whacko group does in the Netherlands.

If any cavalier fanciers are to blame, it is the many cavalier breeders who have ignored the pleas to health test and follow the protocols. What more evidence do you people (you blockheaded breeders) need to convince yourselves that this is not about you and precious breeding programs? You clearly are a major cause of this stunt in the Netherlands. Look in the mirror; you are the problem.

anniemac
26th February 2011, 03:50 PM
Couldn't agree more. :thmbsup:

As an 'outsider' I do wish more time and energy were devoted to breeding healthy animals and health issues per se by clubs and less resources wasted on 'politics'. I wholeheartedly support anyone devoted to "breeding out" health problems in any breed, an exercise which is extremely costly to the committed.

The extinction of the CKCS as a breed is not something I'd like to see; they are a wonderful breed and temperamentally (for the most part) streets ahead of some breeds.

Agree and would like to see action like what they are doing in denmark, free health testing etc.

However, hearts are an issue that there is a protocol. I saw on 2/7/11 trupanion published a list of breeds with most heart issues and ckcs were #4.

But it is not just breeders, pet buyers can't ignore health and buy a puppy from a breeder that is not following the mvd protocol.




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Bet
26th February 2011, 06:34 PM
Thanks, Sins. That newspaper article shows, I think, that this is a long-shot effort by this group. I certainly hope so. It looks like the group thinks it can pick off some "low-hanging fruit" to make a point and get some publicity from such an extreme position.

There is absolutely no reason to totally stop breeding cavaliers. The whole point of the advocates of health testing and following breeding protocols is to breed away from these genetic disorders. Following the protocols necessarily calls for breeding fewer litters by fewer sires and dams, but don't blame the health advocates for what some whacko group does in the Netherlands.

If any cavalier fanciers are to blame, it is the many cavalier breeders who have ignored the pleas to health test and follow the protocols. What more evidence do you people (you blockheaded breeders) need to convince yourselves that this is not about you and precious breeding programs? You clearly are a major cause of this stunt in the Netherlands. Look in the mirror; you are the problem.

BANNING THE BREEDING OF CAVALIERS IN DENMARK


It does not alter the Fact that the Cavaliers are in a worse plight for SM and MVD that the figures that Tania quoted.

Even worse ,because the 85 Whelps Researched for the Foetal Research, all had CM.

Could this now mean that just about every Cavalier has CM here in Britain.

What a Frightening Thought.

Bet

Soushiruiuma
27th February 2011, 12:36 PM
Whether Denmark or Holland the Cavaliers have to be Banned from being Bred from...

Bet

This is a really horrible sentiment, Bet.

I agree that cavaliers health needs addressing. But banning breeding (essentially forcing the breed to either die out or go "underground") is exactly the wrong way to go about.

As Carol Fowler says in PDE if cavaliers were no more "We would be losing the most adorable, gentlest, companion dog in the world".

Bet
27th February 2011, 01:03 PM
This is a really horrible sentiment, Bet.

I agree that cavaliers health needs addressing. But banning breeding (essentially forcing the breed to either die out or go "underground") is exactly the wrong way to go about.

As Carol Fowler says in PDE if cavaliers were no more "We would be losing the most adorable, gentlest, companion dog in the world".


BANNING THE BREEDING OF CAVALIERS OF CAVALIERS IN DENMARK.

Soushiruiuma,

You have taken my Post out of context, there seems to be an argument about whether it is Denmark or Holland the Banning of Cavaliers is being discussed, I said that the Cavaliers in Britain have a far bigger problem .

That 85 Whelps Researched for Foetal Research, all 85 had CM , so could it mean that most Cavaliers have CM.

This is Chacterized by Cavaliers' Brains being too Big, and Skulls' too Small.

Does the CM Condition lead onto Syrinxes forming and giving SM?

If it does ,then the Cavalier Breed is in Big ,Big Trouble.

I really do think that those 85 Whelps who have all been found to have CM , must be of Serious concern to Cavaliers, and the Lovers of the Cavalier Breed.

How do Cavalier Breeders Breed away from CM?

Bet

Fifer
27th February 2011, 03:37 PM
Lets put the record straight it is The Netherlands (ie Holland) not Denmark which is discussing the issue.

I would hate to see this breed lost to the world in less than 15 years, if all countries banned breeding them. To breed out any disease with a hereditary component, we would have to have much later litters from tested clear parents, not ideal but we have to be realistic.

Kate H
27th February 2011, 05:17 PM
I was surprised that this idea has come from The Netherlands, as some of the Dutch breeders are really following the breeding recommendations and having some success in breeding away from SM.

Kate, Oliver and Aled

Pat
27th February 2011, 08:09 PM
I don't believe that the issue is how to breed away from CM or how to eliminate Cavaliers with "MVD genes" as these conditions are likely to be in just about 100% of the breed and this would appear to be an impossible goal.

The issues as I see them are how to breed "toward" that percentage of Cavaliers that has a lifespan of 14-16 and has a decent quality of life (pain free) for most of those years until the normal maladies of old age intervene. I know that those Cavaliers exist because I have owned them for 22 years. I have friends who have owned them. Misha the Pooh here is one of them, and there are more members here with these Cavaliers. A lifespan of 9-11 years in a breed of this size just is not acceptable to me. From anecdotal information since I've been a Cavalier owner, I would guesstimate that there is a percentage - let's guess 20-30% - that has a very shortened lifespan of perhaps 5-8 (obviously with some major health problems associated with this shortened lifespan), then a majority that live to 9-11 and often die of heart failure, and then another percentage of perhaps 30% that live into their early to mid-teens and often die of cancer or other major organ failure rather than "only" heart failure. Similarly, there seems to be a group of Cavaliers that has more slowly progressing heart disease even if a heart murmur is discovered during middle age along with a group that has late-onset MVD. (I've owned some of both.) On the SM front, I suspect there has been a large percentage of Cavaliers through the history of the breed with CM which for some reason or reasons did not go on to develop SM and/or that develop mild SM that results in few or no symptoms. A key question for me about CM/SM is "why has this changed in recent years?" I am 100% certain that I have not "missed" serious symptoms of SM in my Cavaliers over 20 plus years. This was confirmed for me this week after having an MRI on my 8 year old who is symptomless.

For me, the answers will be found in research and working together with researchers, breeders and pet owners who have the same goals as I have (listed above). Like many Americans, I don't believe that layers of legislation and bureaucracy can solve anything.

There are some very dedicated and intelligent researchers, breeders and pet owners who should be working together. I regret that the major breed clubs in the US have not taken more of a leadership position, so that leaves this work to "grassroots" groups to lead the way starting with education. Rupert's Fund is one of those grassroots groups that is making an incredible difference.

Pat

P.S. Can we PLEASE correct the title to have the correct country and stop repeating the wrong info over and over? These muddled facts make me crazy as this is supposed to be a site with relatively accurate information.

And finally, a big THANK YOU to Sins who is someone that I greatly admire for her intelligence and insight!! (There are others here also with those qualities - I just especially wanted to say thanks to Sins today.......)

Tania
27th February 2011, 08:44 PM
P.S. Can we PLEASE correct the title to have the correct country and stop repeating the wrong info over and over?


Sorry, I quoted the Headline in the Paper!

Pat
27th February 2011, 09:05 PM
Sorry, I quoted the Headline in the Paper!

Don't quite understand since the link you gave in the first post clearly says "Amsterdam, Netherlands" -- but I am asking if there is someone with administration powers who can actually change the original thread title at least so the country is correct in the thread title. Would be too much work to ask that the country in all of the individuals posts be changed. At least we can use the correct country in future posts and perhaps have the title corrected. And maybe you can go back and edit the first post?

Pat

Karlin
27th February 2011, 09:28 PM
I will change the title post. :thmbsup:

Tania
27th February 2011, 09:31 PM
Don't quite understand since the link you gave in the first post clearly says "Amsterdam, Netherlands" -- but I am asking if there is someone with administration powers who can actually change the original thread title at least so the country is correct in the thread title. Would be too much work to ask that the country in all of the individuals posts be changed. At least we can use the correct country in future posts and perhaps have the title corrected. And maybe you can go back and edit the first post?

Pat


The paper is in hard copy only! I will ask the person who told me to scan it and send it. I had to search quite a bit to find anything at all on the internet !

Pat
27th February 2011, 09:33 PM
Ah - now I understand! Thanks very much to Tania and Karlin for correcting title and first post!

Pat

dozyrosy
27th February 2011, 10:53 PM
I was surprised that this idea has come from The Netherlands, as some of the Dutch breeders are really following the breeding recommendations and having some success in breeding away from SM.

Kate, Oliver and Aled

Me too Kate, in fact I was horrified as I own a half Dutch Cavalier, whose (Dutch) father has been heart and eye tested clear and has a grade A clear scan for SM. They are obviously doing something right over there and should be given credit for this instead of being condemned out of hand. I think potential owners need to made aware that a lot of hard work is being done by dedicated breeders both here and abroad to ensure that they're producing healthy Cavaliers...

Rosemary

anniemac
27th February 2011, 11:55 PM
I
I don't believe that the issue is how to breed away from CM or how to eliminate Cavaliers with "MVD genes" as these conditions are likely to be in just about 100% of the breed and this would appear to be an impossible goal.

The issues as I see them are how to breed "toward" that percentage of Cavaliers that has a lifespan of 14-16 and has a decent quality of life (pain free) for most of those years until the normal maladies of old age intervene. I know that those Cavaliers exist because I have owned them for 22 years. I have friends who have owned them. Misha the Pooh here is one of them, and there are more members here with these Cavaliers. A lifespan of 9-11 years in a breed of this size just is not acceptable to me. From anecdotal information since I've been a Cavalier owner, I would guesstimate that there is a percentage - let's guess 20-30% - that has a very shortened lifespan of perhaps 5-8 (obviously with some major health problems associated with this shortened lifespan), then a majority that live to 9-11 and often die of heart failure, and then another percentage of perhaps 30% that live into their early to mid-teens and often die of cancer or other major organ failure rather than "only" heart failure. Similarly, there seems to be a group of Cavaliers that has more slowly progressing heart disease even if a heart murmur is discovered during middle age along with a group that has late-onset MVD. (I've owned some of both.) On the SM front, I suspect there has been a large percentage of Cavaliers through the history of the breed with CM which for some reason or reasons did not go on to develop SM and/or that develop mild SM that results in few or no symptoms. A key question for me about CM/SM is "why has this changed in recent years?" I am 100% certain that I have not "missed" serious symptoms of SM in my Cavaliers over 20 plus years. This was confirmed for me this week after having an MRI on my 8 year old who is symptomless.

For me, the answers will be found in research and working together with researchers, breeders and pet owners who have the same goals as I have (listed above). Like many Americans, I don't believe that layers of legislation and bureaucracy can solve anything.

There are some very dedicated and intelligent researchers, breeders and pet owners who should be working together. I regret that the major breed clubs in the US have not taken more of a leadership position, so that leaves this work to "grassroots" groups to lead the way starting with education. Rupert's Fund is one of those grassroots groups that is making an incredible difference.

Pat

P.S. Can we PLEASE correct the title to have the correct country and stop repeating the wrong info over and over? These muddled facts make me crazy as this is supposed to be a site with relatively accurate information.

And finally, a big THANK YOU to Sins who is someone that I greatly admire for her intelligence and insight!! (There are others here also with those qualities - I just especially wanted to say thanks to Sins today.......)

Agree with a lot. There are still so many question and I have several being new to this so pat bear with me. I feel that if we focus on one genetic issue that there still needs research, then we may miss ones with good heart lines. However, I find it extremely frustrating in the usa to not have these issues highlighted and what to help pet owners with mvd and sm protocols. Please point where it is out.

That being said to ignore it is as potentially damaging, especially stud dogs. So if one can not ask these questions and feel silenced, then the breed will be hurt. I find no reason to not follow the original mvd protocol and to breed symptomatic cavaliers and not scan them or if not scanned breed to an A.

Now, I will mention for the love of ollie because I wish this was an example we had in the usa. Pat barrington was acknowledged in the book.

"To pat barrington, chairperson for the cavalier king charles spaniel club of canada, health and education committee. When I asked you to come, you came without hesitation. Your support and efforts to head off this disease in cavaliers has been extraordinary."

So I ask why when I call to not have this same reaction in the usa? I got several reactions. Why can we not donate to this specific cause? Why is the answer what amount of money has been given to this research (it has). I am not a club member, yet, but they should be out there to be as a body for all cavalier owners and an example.

There are members that have contributed to research for cm/sm, there are members that focus solely on mvd. There is a small breeder friend who learned her cavalier had sm to call a well known breeder to be brushed off.

The griffon club, they stood up and took action. I am reading there are much more in clubs than show. Tracking, agility, etc.

Do I not think this is a terrible disease and to commit a cavalier into a life of suffering? Yes I think it is a terrible disease and I have shed so many tears, but I'm new and not a breeder, researcher, or have had cavaliers several years etc. so I don't know the answers. Pat has a cavalier that might have the answers. let's focus on those, have breeders AND pet owners bring cavaliers in for scanning with or without ruperts fund but to go to the research. Especially if people have the money and can do this own there own, what better contribution to the future of cavaliers. Let's do that so we can find the answers and not have to ask that question.


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Bet
28th February 2011, 12:18 PM
I don't believe that the issue is how to breed away from CM or how to eliminate Cavaliers with "MVD genes" as these conditions are likely to be in just about 100% of the breed and this would appear to be an impossible goal.

The issues as I see them are how to breed "toward" that percentage of Cavaliers that has a lifespan of 14-16 and has a decent quality of life (pain free) for most of those years until the normal maladies of old age intervene. I know that those Cavaliers exist because I have owned them for 22 years. I have friends who have owned them. Misha the Pooh here is one of them, and there are more members here with these Cavaliers. A lifespan of 9-11 years in a breed of this size just is not acceptable to me. From anecdotal information since I've been a Cavalier owner, I would guesstimate that there is a percentage - let's guess 20-30% - that has a very shortened lifespan of perhaps 5-8 (obviously with some major health problems associated with this shortened lifespan), then a majority that live to 9-11 and often die of heart failure, and then another percentage of perhaps 30% that live into their early to mid-teens and often die of cancer or other major organ failure rather than "only" heart failure. Similarly, there seems to be a group of Cavaliers that has more slowly progressing heart disease even if a heart murmur is discovered during middle age along with a group that has late-onset MVD. (I've owned some of both.) On the SM front, I suspect there has been a large percentage of Cavaliers through the history of the breed with CM which for some reason or reasons did not go on to develop SM and/or that develop mild SM that results in few or no symptoms. A key question for me about CM/SM is "why has this changed in recent years?" I am 100% certain that I have not "missed" serious symptoms of SM in my Cavaliers over 20 plus years. This was confirmed for me this week after having an MRI on my 8 year old who is symptomless.

For me, the answers will be found in research and working together with researchers, breeders and pet owners who have the same goals as I have (listed above). Like many Americans, I don't believe that layers of legislation and bureaucracy can solve anything.

There are some very dedicated and intelligent researchers, breeders and pet owners who should be working together. I regret that the major breed clubs in the US have not taken more of a leadership position, so that leaves this work to "grassroots" groups to lead the way starting with education. Rupert's Fund is one of those grassroots groups that is making an incredible difference.

Pat

P.S. Can we PLEASE correct the title to have the correct country and stop repeating the wrong info over and over? These muddled facts make me crazy as this is supposed to be a site with relatively accurate information.

And finally, a big THANK YOU to Sins who is someone that I greatly admire for her intelligence and insight!! (There are others here also with those qualities - I just especially wanted to say thanks to Sins today.......)

BANNING THE BREEDING OF CAVALIERS IN THE NETHERLANDS.


Pat,

You have mentioned the Long Lived Cavaliers that you know about ,but ,and this is the Big Question ,how is it known that Cavaliers who have or are Living to a Goog Age are not Carriers of the MVD Gene/Genes.

This is the Question I recently asked Dr Jens Haggstrom ,the Cardiologist at Uppsala University, who has been researching MVD in our Cavalier Breed for around 15 years,because the Heart problem has been in Cavaliers since the 1940's and 50's and those Cavaliers were being Bred from ,could those MVD Genes have come down through the Generations to to-day's Cavaliers ,and that there are now many Cavalier Carriers around with those MVDGene/Genes.

His answer was very likely.

Because there are now so many Cavalier Carriers with the MVD Genes ,I just do not know the answer to their MVD Problem.

On top of that there were 85 Whelps Researched for the Foetal Tissue Research ,all had CM, could this mean that the figure given by the SM Researchers of about 90% Plus of Cavaliers having CM,show how wide-spread the CM Problem is in our Cavaliers.


Bet

Pat
1st March 2011, 03:05 AM
Pat,
You have mentioned the Long Lived Cavaliers that you know about ,but ,and this is the Big Question ,how is it known that Cavaliers who have or are Living to a Good Age are not Carriers of the MVD Gene/Genes. Because there are now so many Cavalier Carriers with the MVD Genes ,I just do not know the answer to their MVD Problem.

On top of that there were 85 Whelps Researched for the Foetal Tissue Research ,all had CM, could this mean that the figure given by the SM Researchers of about 90% Plus of Cavaliers having CM,show how wide-spread the CM Problem is in our Cavaliers.

Bet

Bet, these Cavaliers absolutely ARE carriers of MVD genes and they probably all have some degree of CM also. Every Cavalier alive has "MVD and CM genes." But, there exists this percentage of Cavaliers with later onset and more slowly progressive MVD and with CM that does not evolve into SM. These dogs have a good quality and a good length of life. We want to see this percentage go higher.

The big question is how do we identify these dogs when they are of breeding age and how do we breed toward these characteristics and away from early onset/fast progressing MVD and symptomatic SM? I am hopeful that this is what the EBV research is all about.

The other question (which Dr. Platt mentioned during our discussion) is what effect and to what degree do environmental factors influence longevity and disease. Here is an example:

My Capers and Caprice came from a litter (Kilspindie kennel) of 7. Capers lived until 16 1/2 despite having a murmur at 5 and living in end stage heart failure for two years. I euthanized him because he became blind, deaf and senile and had no quality of life - even though his heart failure symptoms were well controlled (thank you, Gil Jacobs). Caprice died at 15 of intestinal lymphoma (her sire died at 10 of lymphoma). She was not in heart failure and had no other health problems. These were the two longest living of the litter of 7. The first littermate died at age 8. I don't know the exact ages at death of the other 4. What do we know?

1. We know that I had a lucky roll of the genetic dice, and I happened to get two that were somehow pre-programmed to have a decent span of life.

2. We know that there was that "lymphoma predisposition" somewhere in there, although we don't understand it. My girl was lucky to have had an extra five years than her sire. Were there environmental factors to cause the lymphoma? Don't know.

2. We know that my two were of ideal weight all of their lives, and we know that obesity subtracts an average of two years from a dog's lifespan.

3. We know that the littermate who died of heart failure at age 8 probably was one of the "unlucky" ones in the gene department, but we also know that she lived in an apartment in NYC with TWO chain smokers.

Aha, here are some environmental factors - weight and exposure to cigarette smoke. We don't know exactly how to quantify these factors or exactly how genetic and environmental factors interact. I suspect that genetics is more important than environment, but I also suspect that both play a role.

I know zip about genetics and I know zip about breeding, so we are on a level playing field here. What I do know is that if I had not had these wonderful, relatively healthy, long-living Cavaliers in my life, I would have walked - no run - away from this breed a long time ago and I wouldn't be reading any Cavalier message boards. (I love my shih tzu, and I've certainly spent less money on them so I'd be reading Shih Tzu Talk.) And I believe that there are people out there smart enough to figure out how we move in the right direction and that there are some breeders who care and who want to move in the right direction.

Climbing down off the soapbox now....

Pat (who didn't "know about" these long lived dogs but who lived with these dogs)

Kate H
1st March 2011, 12:06 PM
Hi Pat

I was very interested to read about your Capers and Caprice, because this subject of Cavaliers with heart murmurs who still lived to a good age came up at the Cavalier Health Day in the UK last November. Most people there said they had known such cases, but the MVD researchers expressed surprise as they hadn't met any and asked people to give them more information. It's an interesting topic - why does MVD progress to heart failure early in some Cavaliers but not in others - even, as you described, in litter-mates? Is it a question of fitness rather than health? Perhaps this is an area where dog research could get information from human heart research? What role does stress play in dogs, as it is a major factor in human heart failure? Fearful, badly socialised dogs must live in a more or less perpetual state of stress. Raises a lot of interesting questions...

Kate, Oliver and Aled

Bet
1st March 2011, 12:37 PM
Bet, these Cavaliers absolutely ARE carriers of MVD genes and they probably all have some degree of CM also. Every Cavalier alive has "MVD and CM genes." But, there exists this percentage of Cavaliers with later onset and more slowly progressive MVD and with CM that does not evolve into SM. These dogs have a good quality and a good length of life. We want to see this percentage go higher.

The big question is how do we identify these dogs when they are of breeding age and how do we breed toward these characteristics and away from early onset/fast progressing MVD and symptomatic SM? I am hopeful that this is what the EBV research is all about.

The other question (which Dr. Platt mentioned during our discussion) is what effect and to what degree do environmental factors influence longevity and disease. Here is an example:

My Capers and Caprice came from a litter (Kilspindie kennel) of 7. Capers lived until 16 1/2 despite having a murmur at 5 and living in end stage heart failure for two years. I euthanized him because he became blind, deaf and senile and had no quality of life - even though his heart failure symptoms were well controlled (thank you, Gil Jacobs). Caprice died at 15 of intestinal lymphoma (her sire died at 10 of lymphoma). She was not in heart failure and had no other health problems. These were the two longest living of the litter of 7. The first littermate died at age 8. I don't know the exact ages at death of the other 4. What do we know?

1. We know that I had a lucky roll of the genetic dice, and I happened to get two that were somehow pre-programmed to have a decent span of life.

2. We know that there was that "lymphoma predisposition" somewhere in there, although we don't understand it. My girl was lucky to have had an extra five years than her sire. Were there environmental factors to cause the lymphoma? Don't know.

2. We know that my two were of ideal weight all of their lives, and we know that obesity subtracts an average of two years from a dog's lifespan.

3. We know that the littermate who died of heart failure at age 8 probably was one of the "unlucky" ones in the gene department, but we also know that she lived in an apartment in NYC with TWO chain smokers.

Aha, here are some environmental factors - weight and exposure to cigarette smoke. We don't know exactly how to quantify these factors or exactly how genetic and environmental factors interact. I suspect that genetics is more important than environment, but I also suspect that both play a role.

I know zip about genetics and I know zip about breeding, so we are on a level playing field here. What I do know is that if I had not had these wonderful, relatively healthy, long-living Cavaliers in my life, I would have walked - no run - away from this breed a long time ago and I wouldn't be reading any Cavalier message boards. (I love my shih tzu, and I've certainly spent less money on them so I'd be reading Shih Tzu Talk.) And I believe that there are people out there smart enough to figure out how we move in the right direction and that there are some breeders who care and who want to move in the right direction.

Climbing down off the soapbox now....

Pat (who didn't "know about" these long lived dogs but who lived with these dogs)


BANNING THE BREEDING OF CAVALIERS IN THE NETHERLANDS


Pat ,
Thank you for your Post , I have been thinking about it with a Coffee.

I would guess what you are saying is how important following the Breeding Guidelines are for both MVD and SM, that the best way forward to save the Cavalier Breed is to delay the age of On-Set for both those Two Diseases.

That the Cavalier Breed will always be having the MVD and SM Genes ,nothing will alter this fact, but what could go a Long Way in trying to give the Cavaliers a Chance of Healthier .Longer Lives will be the EBV Scheme.

Like you, we had Our Cherished MAGS who lived to 15 ,when she was Put to Sleep ,her Heart was perfect, but was she a MVD Carrier ,we just don't know, her Grand-Daughter developed a Heart Murmur at 3, but lived to 13 .

I have never been involved in the Breeding of Cavaliers , only got involved because we had 4 Cavaliers who died from MVD at Early Ages , yet Mags lived to 15 with no Heart Trouble, and I started to wonder why.

Have wondered this for the past 20 years , collected Pedigrees of other Cavaliers who have suffered from Heart Trouble, from as far back as the 1940's.

I have over 400 Hundred now ,including a good Number of Cavalier Champions ,also Lists of those Champions 'Litters they are involved with, going back to the 1940's, all this Information has been sent to the MVD Researchers to see if they can follow a Link in this Information.

I guess though this will be a Hopeless Task now that Science is saying that Environmental Factors have a Part to Play with MVD GENES.

So we are back to the Best way Forward for our Beloved Cavalier Breed, to Delay the Early Onset of Both MVD and SM and help the EBV SCHEME all we can.

Bet