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Bet
28th February 2011, 11:50 AM
The more you think about this,the more Logical it would be for the UK CKCS CLUB to Publish a List of Responsible Cavalier Club Members who are Breeders of Cavaliers.

That those Cavalier Members Health Test and follow the Breeding Guidelines issued by the CKCS CLUB and the Researchers into SM and MVD in their Cavalier Breeding Stock .

I will mention again the the Breeding Guidelines.

Not to Breed from a Cavalier until He or She is 2.5 years of age and not to be suffering from SM or MVD.

That Parents Health Status is known at 5 .

This List could also encourage Prospective Cavalier Buyers not to buy Cavaliers from those Dreadful Puppy Farms.

I know that Health Testing and following Breeding Guidelines won't Guarantee that the Cavalier from developing SM or MVD in the Future,but if the CKCS CLUB PUBLISHED a List giving the names of Responsible Cavalier Breeders who are Members of the CKCS CLUB, this would surely give Confidence to Cavalier Buyers.

Bet

Bet
28th February 2011, 07:16 PM
The more you think about this,the more Logical it would be for the UK CKCS CLUB to Publish a List of Responsible Cavalier Club Members who are Breeders of Cavaliers.

That those Cavalier Members Health Test and follow the Breeding Guidelines issued by the CKCS CLUB and the Researchers into SM and MVD in their Cavalier Breeding Stock .

I will mention again the the Breeding Guidelines.

Not to Breed from a Cavalier until He or She is 2.5 years of age and not to be suffering from SM or MVD.

That Parents Health Status is known at 5 .

This List could also encourage Prospective Cavalier Buyers not to buy Cavaliers from those Dreadful Puppy Farms.

I know that Health Testing and following Breeding Guidelines won't Guarantee that the Cavalier from developing SM or MVD in the Future,but if the CKCS CLUB PUBLISHED a List giving the names of Responsible Cavalier Breeders who are Members of the CKCS CLUB, this would surely give Confidence to Cavalier Buyers.

Bet


SHOULD THE CKCS CLUB NOW PUBLISH A LIST OF CLUB MEMBERS WHO ARE BREEDERS?


I have just received a Private E-Mail about my Suggestion that the CKCS CLUB should Publish a List of Cavalier Members who Health Test and follow the Breeding Guidelines for SM and MVD in their Cavalier Breeding Stock.

This Lady is in complete agreement with this suggestion.

The CKCS CLUB must realize that the CLUB MEMBERS who are Breeders ,that those Breeders must share information ,declare and divulge the Information that will ultimately Protect our Cavalier Breed's Future.

SM and MVD are nothing to be ashamed of ,unless Cavaliers are being used knowing them to have a Genetic Fault and have failed to declare it, share this this Information and warn others about it.

Not just other Cavalier Breeders , but the Unsupecting Cavalier buying Public.

This is where the CKCS HEALTH REPRESENTATIVES and the Chairman of the Liason CKCS COMMITTEE should say that this is a Worth-While Thought.

This particular Ball is now in the Court of the CKCS CLUB.

If they are unable to Publish a List , I am sure Many Cavalier Owners will be wondering why it cannot be done.

Bet

Brian M
28th February 2011, 10:20 PM
Hello Bet

Just to clarify you think that the main Cavalier Club should publish a list of all members who breed and then quantify that by naming only members on that list who follow all the required Cavalier health tests and also follow the Breeding Guidelines as issued by the parent Cavalier Club .So in effect there would then be two lists of current (say within the last five years for breeding ) breeders ,one of good who follow all the guidelines and are truly open,caring and honest and the other of breeders who don't follow the guidelines and hide and mask certain unhelpful results which if so could then lead to dishonesty ,:) deceitfulness and lying to protect their standing .Is that right Bet if so who (breeder ) would you say should appear on either list .

ps you can always send me a pm with names

Pat
1st March 2011, 12:55 AM
Hmmm.......I have a different feeling about this, and I'm not sure if anyone else feels this way. I don't want - nor do I trust - anyone else to do my due diligence for me. I may have different desires and beliefs about what I want in a breeder and/or in a Cavalier than the list overseers who decide what breeders to put on the naughty and nice lists. In other words - I want to do my own investigation and make my own decisions. If I'm going to purchase a dishwasher, I don't expect to go to consumer reports and blindly follow their choices. That might not be the right choice for me; I want to do my own investigation and analysis.

And, club members have a hard time agreeing on anything - how in the world could members even come up with the criteria to be on these lists without the result being death and dismemberment??!! Who is going to have the final veto on whether or not someone ends up on one list or the other? And, who is going to provide the manpower (paid or free?) to go around and check that all the i's are dotted and t's are crossed in order for breeders to remain on the nice list?

I think that some of the forums that have guides to puppy buying are helpful and give prospective owners food for thought. Prospective owners can read those guidelines and decide for themselves which things are important to them. I've found over many years, though, that first time Cavalier buyers almost never do their homework as they are way too eager to get a puppy quickly. They just don't believe that anything bad is going to happen to them. It is repeat purchasers that tend to be more discerning.

Pat (who adopted the scraggly looking Cavalier off the street last year with no due diligence at all!)

Karlin
1st March 2011, 01:14 AM
:lol: Pat, I think I would tend to agree with you on this. It is also one of the problems with the proposals for the accredited breeders scheme to the kennel club. It is already widely stated (whether true or not, I don't know) that several puppy farmers –or breeders who are little better than... have gotten accredited breeder status because nobody bothers to check what anybody is doing.

I do think that a breeder or club run health database that includes results voluntarily would be a big plus for many breeders and puppy buyers. Many right now say that because results are kept so secretive, they cannot find studs in particular that have been scanned. There are also breeders who do scan who say they cannot find buyers for their litters–but that is because buyers have no idea where to go to find out about litters from scanning breeders. But I do think breeders themselves have to organize these resources. And then, it has to be up to the buyer to do the hard work to make sure that things are as is claimed or implied. I know there is a lot of interest in puppies from scanning breeders, because many send me e-mails and messages to the board. But I have no way of giving them suggestions of where to go to at least shorten the search so that they don't call 100 breeders trying to find somebody who scans. :(

I do think that having a list of scanned cavaliers with no detail, such as the one on the UK club site, is potentially very misleading. Because there are no results, breeders can scan a single dog just to be on the list and buyers might easily see that single scan as an indication that the breeder scans generally–and of course they do, you see people post to this effect all the time.

The kennel club could change things if it required certain health tests of individual breeds if the puppies are to be given registration. They could also require that health information appear on a pedigree, say. They could also run a health database and require breeding dogs producing registered litters be listed.

If all the first-time puppy buyers that said they were definitely only going to buy from a health focused breeder actually did just that, and did more than just ask some cursory questions (as it is very clear that many who think they have bought from health focus breeders who test, have actually done nothing of the sort and have been duped into thinking some basic meaningless tests are adequate)… The buyers would be a very effective force for change as breeders will absolutely respond to what buyers demand. But right now, too many people want a cheaper puppy in the color that they want today rather than waiting until tomorrow or next month or next year. And a lot of them suffer the consequences of a rash purchase. I think almost everybody is far more careful the second time around.

Pat
1st March 2011, 01:41 AM
The kennel club could change things if it required certain health tests of individual breeds if the puppies are to be given registration. They could also require that health information appear on a pedigree, say. They could also run a health database and require breeding dogs producing registered litters be listed.

The buyers would be a very effective force for change as breeders will absolutely respond to what buyers demand. But right now, too many people want a cheaper puppy in the color that they want today rather than waiting until tomorrow or next month or next year. And a lot of them suffer the consequences of a rash purchase. I think almost everybody is far more careful the second time around.

Yup - too bad neither of those things are ever gonna happen. At least not in the good old U.S. of A.

A couple of us on the national board of CKCSC USA (you would recognize the other names) tried to start a discussion back in the 90's around ideas in your first point. Way, way too much opposition.

And there are never going to be enough educated and discerning puppy buyers with enough market power to put a dent in the activity of the mills, backyard breeders, etc.

I have lived too long and my naivete is gone.......

Pat

anniemac
1st March 2011, 04:05 AM
Unfortunately we live in an I want it now world or country. Just like some breeders choose to ignore health testing or problems, I have seen cavalier owners do the same.

I have 2 times this year been close to getting another Cavalier. Ellas breeder said when the time was right, she would give me another cavalier, however, that is not going to be the road I go down now especially after other things. The first time I saw her at a show and she said she had a puppy then. Wow! Right now, it was so tempting but thankfully I thought about it hard. The mother was from ellas litter so as much as I wanted part of that connection, there were several issues not only with SM factor.

Second time, it was to place a 6 year old that was done breeding. I talked to nicki who helped me and again I knew it was not the right choice. Now I am waiting for a good foster or just the right time. Even on the other post I said I want him, but somehow pet owners have to realize and even me, that no matter if they had breeders who are on the "nice" list, it could change and they could have a litter not under protocols. They could mri but we need to know what the results were and see them for ourselves. So its up to the pet owner to "buy" the breeder. Usually when someone starts looking, they want a puppy and the breeder is just the delivery.

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anniemac
1st March 2011, 04:16 AM
I meant to say foster and right time. I will know when the time is right and right now is about ella. Its just comforting to know that I can do that someday.

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Fifer
1st March 2011, 09:10 AM
Interesting points from Pat and Karlin.

Thinking about the problem from a slightly different angle, would it not be possible for the club to have a list of litters available from health tested parents rather than a list of breeders who health test?

Perhaps the template could start with the test/scan certificate numbers of the sire and dam so that only when those details/fields were entered could the litter from health tested parents could be included?

That should prevent the unscrupulous breeder from health testing one dog or bitch just to "get on the list" by ensuring that the certificates relate only to the parents of that particular litter.

Bet
1st March 2011, 11:01 AM
Interesting points from Pat and Karlin.

Thinking about the problem from a slightly different angle, would it not be possible for the club to have a list of litters available from health tested parents rather than a list of breeders who health test?

Perhaps the template could start with the test/scan certificate numbers of the sire and dam so that only when those details/fields were entered could the litter from health tested parents could be included?

That should prevent the unscrupulous breeder from health testing one dog or bitch just to "get on the list" by ensuring that the certificates relate only to the parents of that particular litter.

SHOULD THE CKCS CLUB NOW PUBLISH A LIST OF CKCS CLUB MEMBERS WHO ARE BREEDERS?


Thanks Fifer for this suggestion ,this a far better way of going about this,

Because the UK CKCS CLUB issued their Breeding Guidelines in 1987, then surely the Club cannot possibly have any objections to Publishing a List of Cavalier Puppies from Cavalier Members who have Health Tested and followed the CLUB'S Breeding Guidelines and have Cavalier Puppies available.

This is all that is needed.

Bet

Davecav
1st March 2011, 12:08 PM
There is a puppy register form on the UK parent club website and it does have an optional section for breeders to fill in to show that health tests have been done for eyes, heart and MRI scans, and the most recent date, and I think this is fair, the purchaser can decide whether or not they want to contact any breeders that haven't given details of health certs - that's up to them.
At least they have the freedom of choice.

Brian M
1st March 2011, 02:32 PM
Hello Davecav

Where can I go online to view the breeders completed puppy register forms which may or may not have the optional health test parts completed , please.

Bet
1st March 2011, 02:33 PM
There is a puppy register form on the UK parent club website and it does have an optional section for breeders to fill in to show that health tests have been done for eyes, heart and MRI scans, and the most recent date, and I think this is fair, the purchaser can decide whether or not they want to contact any breeders that haven't given details of health certs - that's up to them.
At least they have the freedom of choice.


SHOULD THE CKCS CLUB NOW PUBLISH A LIST OF CKCS CLUB MEMBERS WHO ARE BREEDERS?


Davecav,

I have just read the Puppy Register Form on the CKCS WEB SITE ,and the name of the PUPPY CO-Cordinator ,but no mention of where a Prospective Cavalier Buyer can see a List of Cavalier Puppies available from a Cavalier Breeder who is a Club Member who has Health Tested and followed the Breeding Guidelines for those Puppies.

Why is there not a List Published of avaliable Puppies whose Parents have been Health Tested and the Breeding Guidelines followed.

Will the PUPPY CO-ORDINATOR make available the Information as to whether the Puppies Names she has ,have come from Cavalier Member Breeders who have Health Tested and followed the Breeding Guidelines for those Puppies.

The next Question has to be just how many Cavalier Breeders who are CLUB Members ,are filling in the PUPPY REGISTER FORM giving the Details of those Puppies that they have for sale?

Bet

Bet
1st March 2011, 02:38 PM
Hello Davecav

Where can I go online to view the breeders completed puppy register forms which may or may not have the optional health test parts completed , please.


SHOULD THE CKCS CLUB NOW PUBLISH A LIST OF CKCS CLUB MEMBERS WHO ARE BREEDERS.


Brian M

I would also like to get the answer to your Question from Davecav.

Bet

Fifer
1st March 2011, 02:51 PM
There is a puppy register form on the UK parent club website and it does have an optional section for breeders to fill in to show that health tests have been done for eyes, heart and MRI scans, and the most recent date, and I think this is fair, the purchaser can decide whether or not they want to contact any breeders that haven't given details of health certs - that's up to them.
At least they have the freedom of choice.

Sorry I disagree.

If the health section is "optional" I wouldn't call that "fair", I'd call it 'sitting on the fence'. :wink:

By putting both tested and untested on the same list, the club is avoiding the issue (and responsibility) of health testing before breeding, leaving any potential new pet purchaser confused and shouldering the responsibility of their purchase ie caveat emptor. In a breed where secrecy of health results is rampant and the diseases so severe, that is simply a nonsense.

Any breeder should be proud to health test and proud to declare it for all to see; even if the results aren't perfect it is better than not testing at all. Likewise, clubs should be proud of (and promote) health testing members.

A purchaser should see the breed club litter list as the safest option, representing the highest standards for the breed. It should not be, nor appear to be, an old boys (or girls) club for promoting club members interests.

After all why would a potential purchaser not just buy from any freead site? There are loads of cavalier litters advertised, some tested some not. What difference the breed club list? Why on earth would any breed club not want to promote their very best and healthiest breeding??

Davecav
1st March 2011, 03:42 PM
There isn't an online list, I think it would be expecting a little too much for a volunteer to constantly update the list of puppies and it would probably get quickly out of date.

The way the system works is - If someone has a litter of pups for sale and is a club member they would fill in the form and send it to the puppy register co-ordinator.

If a buyer is looking for a puppy and has contacted the kennel club or breed club for a contact, they will be given the co-ordinators telephone number so they can contact them by phone to find out if there are any suitable puppies.

I guess, but I don't know, that the co-ordinator will explain which puppies are from health tested parents. It would then (as I said) be up to the puppy buyer to decide which breeder(s) to contact.

It really isn't all that difficult!!!!!

I would think most breeders who use the facility will fill in the health section - it makes sense if they want to sell their puppies.

As for the breeders that choose not to put health details down - I would think they won't get too many (any) telephones calls!

Fifer you say:
If the health section is "optional" I wouldn't call that "fair", I'd call it 'sitting on the fence'. :wink:

It could be called sitting on the fence, but the health tests are not madatory, so the club cannot penalize breeders who choose not to disclose whether they have tested or not. All club members have a right, at present, to use the facility to sell their puppies. As I see it, anyone who doesn't put health tests down for whatever reason will be at a disadvantage.

Fifer
1st March 2011, 04:36 PM
There isn't an online list, I think it would be expecting a little too much for a volunteer to constantly update the list of puppies and it would probably get quickly out of date.

The way the system works is - If someone has a litter of pups for sale and is a club member they would fill in the form and send it to the puppy register co-ordinator.

If a buyer is looking for a puppy and has contacted the kennel club or breed club for a contact, they will be given the co-ordinators telephone number so they can contact them by phone to find out if there are any suitable puppies.

I guess, but I don't know, that the co-ordinator will explain which puppies are from health tested parents. It would then (as I said) be up to the puppy buyer to decide which breeder(s) to contact.

It really isn't all that difficult!!!!!

I would think most breeders who use the facility will fill in the health section - it makes sense if they want to sell their puppies.

As for the breeders that choose not to put health details down - I would think they won't get too many (any) telephones calls!

What a convoluted system! :sl*p: This is the 21st century it is really just as simple (or as complicated) as the club/s want it to be!

For example, I'm a volunteer with little time to call my own but, our rescue has direct on-line forms completed by the applicant which transfer directly to google docs spreadsheets, I get a notification by email and see the results on screen with one click. I don't have to fill in anything, post anything or wait for the phone to ring!

A similar database could easily be set up for litters available and viewable on-line!

It's not rocket science is it?

Another point which should perhaps be raised here, is that a viewable on-line litter database removes any possible allegation of 'favouritism' to any breeder on the part of the puppy coordinator and may in fact remove the need for such a position.

Brian M
1st March 2011, 04:39 PM
Hello Fifer

And Thank You .:)

Margaret C
1st March 2011, 04:43 PM
There isn't an online list, I think it would be expecting a little too much for a volunteer to constantly update the list of puppies and it would probably get quickly out of date.

The way the system works is - If someone has a litter of pups for sale and is a club member they would fill in the form and send it to the puppy register co-ordinator.

If a buyer is looking for a puppy and has contacted the kennel club or breed club for a contact, they will be given the co-ordinators telephone number so they can contact them by phone to find out if there are any suitable puppies.

I guess, but I don't know, that the co-ordinator will explain which puppies are from health tested parents. It would then (as I said) be up to the puppy buyer to decide which breeder(s) to contact.

It really isn't all that difficult!!!!!

I would think most breeders who use the facility will fill in the health section - it makes sense if they want to sell their puppies.

As for the breeders that choose not to put health details down - I would think they won't get too many (any) telephones calls!

Fifer you say:
If the health section is "optional" I wouldn't call that "fair", I'd call it 'sitting on the fence'. :wink:

It could be called sitting on the fence, but the health tests are not madatory, so the club cannot penalize breeders who choose not to disclose whether they have tested or not. All club members have a right, at present, to use the facility to sell their puppies. As I see it, anyone who doesn't put health tests down for whatever reason will be at a disadvantage.

It was a great step forward when the Cavalier Club added the optional health section, and I applaud them for that, but it is not enough for a breed that needs to show it is capable of self-regulation and able to put the welfare of the dogs before the interest of their members.

Another significant step happened at a recent regional club AGM, when the club members voted in favour of a proposal that all their elected committee members should breed in accordance with the club's Code of Best Practice.

Leading by example........... there are similar proposals being put at other forthcoming AGMs.
Another chance to show whether cavalier breeders are willing to take responsibility for regulating themselves, or whether they are still willing to stand by and see some of their elected representatives destroy what concientious breeders are trying so hard to achieve.

Bet
1st March 2011, 07:31 PM
There isn't an online list, I think it would be expecting a little too much for a volunteer to constantly update the list of puppies and it would probably get quickly out of date.

The way the system works is - If someone has a litter of pups for sale and is a club member they would fill in the form and send it to the puppy register co-ordinator.

If a buyer is looking for a puppy and has contacted the kennel club or breed club for a contact, they will be given the co-ordinators telephone number so they can contact them by phone to find out if there are any suitable puppies.

I guess, but I don't know, that the co-ordinator will explain which puppies are from health tested parents. It would then (as I said) be up to the puppy buyer to decide which breeder(s) to contact.

It really isn't all that difficult!!!!!

I would think most breeders who use the facility will fill in the health section - it makes sense if they want to sell their puppies.

As for the breeders that choose not to put health details down - I would think they won't get too many (any) telephones calls!

Fifer you say:
If the health section is "optional" I wouldn't call that "fair", I'd call it 'sitting on the fence'. :wink:

It could be called sitting on the fence, but the health tests are not madatory, so the club cannot penalize breeders who choose not to disclose whether they have tested or not. All club members have a right, at present, to use the facility to sell their puppies. As I see it, anyone who doesn't put health tests down for whatever reason will be at a disadvantage.


SHOULD THE CKCS CLUB NOW PUBLISH A LIST OF CKCS MEMBERS WHO ARE BREEDERS?


Davecav,

I think that the $ 64.000 Question is as you have mentioned ,it is up to the Prospective Cavalier Puppy Buyer to decide which Cavalier Breeder they want to buy their Cavalier Puppy from.

How can they do this if they don't know which Cavalier Club Breeder Health Tests and follows the Clubs Breeding Guidelines for SM and MVD.

Have they to ask the Cavalier Club Breeder this Question and be Insulted by the Response some will get?

I know this happens as I have mentioned before ,because I was involved with the Dogs Today as a Cavalier Breed Adviser for a few years, and had a List of Cavalier Puppies Available from Club Members,when the Enquiries were made to me about some-one wanting a Cavalier Puppy ,I always said to ask if the Breeder had Health Tested the Puppies Sire and Dam.

Sadly a number of those Folk came back to me in Tears because of the Abuse they'd been given by those Cavalier Club Breeders when they had been asked this Question.

What a difference it would have made to them ,instead of having having this Abuse meted out to them if they could have seen a List Published by the CKCS CLUB of Cavalier CLUB Breeders who had Cavalier Puppies available ,and Health Tested and followed the Breeding Guidelines as issued by the CKCS CLUB in 1987.


Bet

Davecav
1st March 2011, 08:28 PM
I'm not going to stick up for anyone here. All I did a few posts ago was say there was a form that breeders could fill in to put their pups on the puppy register, and that it had a section for health tests.

I was trying to be helpful, yet I feel that you are all blaming me because you don't like the system - I haven't got anything to do with it - honest.

I'll shut up from now on.:(

I still think it's ultimately up to the buyer to ask relevant questions though. You can't spoon feed everyone. And if a breeder is rude to you Bet, then they have lost a sale and you can put the phone down.

Margaret C
2nd March 2011, 12:34 AM
I'm not going to stick up for anyone here. All I did a few posts ago was say there was a form that breeders could fill in to put their pups on the puppy register, and that it had a section for health tests.

I was trying to be helpful, yet I feel that you are all blaming me because you don't like the system - I haven't got anything to do with it - honest.

I'll shut up from now on.:(

I still think it's ultimately up to the buyer to ask relevant questions though. You can't spoon feed everyone. And if a breeder is rude to you Bet, then they have lost a sale and you can put the phone down.

Sorry if you have been made to feel you are being blamed for something. I certainly did not mean to give that impression. I appreciate the fact you bring a different view to the discussion.

I think most people that buy their first puppy do not do enough homework, simply because they don't realise there is homework they should do.

Most first time buyers do not know that in exchange for knowing the size, the appearance, and the temperament of a pedigree dog you will get increased levels of inherited illness that vary according to the breed of dog you choose.

I agree you can't spoon feed everyone, especially the poor innocents who only get as far as the internet sites of the puppy farmers, but anyone seeking information from a breed club, or a breed club member, cannot be blamed for believing they will get the full information they need to make informed decisions on the puppy they buy.

If they cannot get the best and most honest advice from a breed club, then where would it come from?

Pat
2nd March 2011, 02:13 AM
I think most people that buy their first puppy do not do enough homework, simply because they don't realise there is homework they should do.

Most first time buyers do not know that in exchange for knowing the size, the appearance, and the temperament of a pedigree dog you will get increased levels of inherited illness that vary according to the breed of dog you choose.

I agree you can't spoon feed everyone, especially the poor innocents who only get as far as the internet sites of the puppy farmers, but anyone seeking information from a breed club, or a breed club member, cannot be blamed for believing they will get the full information they need to make informed decisions on the puppy they buy.

If they cannot get the best and most honest advice from a breed club, then where would it come from?

Margaret, those are some good points. I tend to agree with Dave about the spoon feeding bit, but I've just realized that I have the viewpoint of a very long-time, experienced pet owner. Hadn't thought about the point of view of a first time puppy owner.

Pat

RodRussell
2nd March 2011, 03:04 AM
... If they cannot get the best and most honest advice from a breed club, then where would it come from?

Well, I can think of one website (actually, four or five websites), but the only reason those sites exist is because the CKCS club sites often avoid the truth. I think the UK club's site is the best in terms of providing information about the genetic health problems of the breed.

But when both USA national clubs knowingly and intentionally reject both the MVD breeding protocol and the SM breeding protocol, it is the independent sites that must fill that void.

anniemac
2nd March 2011, 03:07 AM
When I got ella, I assumed that being from a recommended breeder on a national site that meant she was ok. Call me what you want but the I commend someone that can figure all this out before because I'm still trying. Ella was my first and I'm still learning, but most people I know have not been involved with cavaliers or even have any idea of clubs etc.

Pat I am glad you said that because there are breeders, pet owners etc. That have been around cavaliers for a long time so it becomes second nature. People have to start somewhere and for me to go onto two national usa clubs and have a hard time finding mvd protocols or anything but breeders may scan etc. Especially something like mvd protocol which has been around for sometime. If you can figure it out, please tell me because Its hard. Yes I am being spoon fed and if I have been around cavaliers a long time, it would seem like common sense to ask for certificates. However, I simply relied on a breeder being referred on a national club as meaning they did all the health testing and followed protocols. (Which she did) didn't scan but even now that is not something a lot do on the website due to cost etc.

I can see how davecav was trying to help and getting frustrated but I can only say that if they actually have protocols and breeding guidelines on the site, that's a whole bunch more than we have.



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anniemac
2nd March 2011, 03:27 AM
Rod your reply was faster. Yes we all know what site you are referring to.

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Davecav
2nd March 2011, 09:51 AM
Sorry if you have been made to feel you are being blamed for something. I certainly did not mean to give that impression. I appreciate the fact you bring a different view to the discussion.

I think most people that buy their first puppy do not do enough homework, simply because they don't realise there is homework they should do.

Most first time buyers do not know that in exchange for knowing the size, the appearance, and the temperament of a pedigree dog you will get increased levels of inherited illness that vary according to the breed of dog you choose.

I agree you can't spoon feed everyone, especially the poor innocents who only get as far as the internet sites of the puppy farmers, but anyone seeking information from a breed club, or a breed club member, cannot be blamed for believing they will get the full information they need to make informed decisions on the puppy they buy.

If they cannot get the best and most honest advice from a breed club, then where would it come from?

Thanks Margaret, it's alright. It was my fault really as I found I was being drawn into a discussion where I found I was inadvertently defending something that when I think about it, does have flaws.
However it is going in the right direction.

What Pat pointed out is a good point. I too have had cavaliers for a number of years and was brought up with shetland sheepdogs, so have had pedigree dogs all my life. I suppose by osmosis I have soaked in many of the do's and don'ts as I grew up, and have forgotten, or in fact never thought that there are first time dog buyers out there who are complete novices. (oh dear:o I can see where some of you are coming from)
There are some good breeders who will bend over backwards to help new owners; but there are others who will give an equally good impression to niaive first time buyers who haven't done their homework!
I still stick with my view that it is up to the buyer to try and find out as much as they can about the breed before taking the plunge. There will always be a dodgy breeders, just as there are dodgy car dealers! It isn't a perfect world.:)

Fifer
2nd March 2011, 10:00 AM
I think most people that buy their first puppy do not do enough homework, simply because they don't realise there is homework they should do.

Most first time buyers do not know that in exchange for knowing the size, the appearance, and the temperament of a pedigree dog you will get increased levels of inherited illness that vary according to the breed of dog you choose.

I agree you can't spoon feed everyone, especially the poor innocents who only get as far as the internet sites of the puppy farmers, but anyone seeking information from a breed club, or a breed club member, cannot be blamed for believing they will get the full information they need to make informed decisions on the puppy they buy.

If they cannot get the best and most honest advice from a breed club, then where would it come from?

Exactly my point, thank you Margaret, you have put it much more succinctly than I.

When a litter database is set up it should aim to be 'end user friendly' (yes I hate these terms too!), should be accessible and easy to understand by the puppy buyer as they may have little or no knowledge of the breed and have even less about breeders, good or bad.

It should also encourage 'best practise' on the part of members and also be easy for the breeder to complete online. While at the same time preventing litter entries which are not the standard expected ie those whose sire and dam are NOT health tested or non club member breeders. Health testing may not be mandatory but it should be best practice and only breeders litters who conform to that standard should be included. The database should also prevent abuse by any committee member (re my point about a coordinator giving out a breeder pal's info! Which has been known to happen).

I understand that most first time buyers today look online for information first, the more educated will google search breed clubs for information and litters for a specific breed.

Davecav
Often people take a discussion personally which distracts from positive input and shifts the focus of the discussion, the debate is (and should be) of policies and agendas. If you raise a point it will be debated, for good or bad from various points of view, there's nothing personal in it.

I'm not a cavalier owner but have bred dogs in the past, though not cavaliers; I have no agenda personal or otherwise. However as a rescue coordinator who has to pick up the pieces of bad breeding, I do have very strong views about health and temperament testing in any breed.

Davecav
2nd March 2011, 10:23 AM
Hi Fifer

Nothing personal taken :) what you suggest sounds good, but I'm not a wizz with computers, and don't know how easy it is to set up something on the lines you say. I'm not taking sides here, honest, but just wonder whether a basic site like the cavalier club one looks would be up to what you are thinking of, and if not - what the costs are of getting something like this and it's upkeep?

Also I don't know how many club members use the site to advertise their pups? If it's only a handful, then it probably won't warrent the outlay and management of it, especially if it needs speicalist knowledge.
I'm not a club member, though there must be members on here who might know.

Bet
2nd March 2011, 10:46 AM
I'm not going to stick up for anyone here. All I did a few posts ago was say there was a form that breeders could fill in to put their pups on the puppy register, and that it had a section for health tests.

I was trying to be helpful, yet I feel that you are all blaming me because you don't like the system - I haven't got anything to do with it - honest.

I'll shut up from now on.:(

I still think it's ultimately up to the buyer to ask relevant questions though. You can't spoon feed everyone. And if a breeder is rude to you Bet, then they have lost a sale and you can put the phone down.


CAN THE CKCS CLUB NOW PUBLISH A LIST OF CKCS CLUB MEMBERS WHO ARE BREEDERS?


Davecav,

I am sorry you mis-understood my Post, I was not looking for a Cavalier from a CLUB BREEDER ,it was because I was involved as Cavalier Breed Advisor with the Dogs Today magazine and got a List of Cavalier Puppies available from the UK CKCS CLUB, that when any-one phoned me looking for a Cavalier Puppy ,it would safe enough to put them onto a CKCS CLUB BREEDER, and to ask if the Cavalier 's Sire and Dam had been Heart Tested.

Unfortunately I learned how wrong I was in thinking that!!!

Now that this discussion is taking place and the CKCS CLUB'S CHAMPIONSHIP SHOW is taking place on Saturday, and no doubt there will be a Health Stall at it, any-body going to it, and to the Cavalier Stall next week at CRUFTS, and ask this Question.

Why is there not a LIST PUBLISHED by the CKCS CLUB of PUPPIES avaliable from CAVALIER BREEDERS Who are CLUB MEMBERS ,who have Have Health Tested and followed the Breeding Guidelines for those Available Cavalier Puppies. ?

If any-one is going to the CKCS CHAMPIONSHIP SHOW or CRUFTS and asks this Question at the Cavalier Stalls ,perhaps they would put on our List here what the answer was that they were given.

Bet

Fifer
2nd March 2011, 01:36 PM
Hi Fifer

Nothing personal taken :) what you suggest sounds good, but I'm not a wizz with computers, and don't know how easy it is to set up something on the lines you say. I'm not taking sides here, honest, but just wonder whether a basic site like the cavalier club one looks would be up to what you are thinking of, and if not - what the costs are of getting something like this and it's upkeep?

Also I don't know how many club members use the site to advertise their pups? If it's only a handful, then it probably won't warrent the outlay and management of it, especially if it needs speicalist knowledge.
I'm not a club member, though there must be members on here who might know.

I'm no computer whizz kid either :shock: I have to look at myself in the mirror every morning! :thmbsup:

It is relatively simple for anyone with spreadsheet and basic website knowledge to install an online form. It costs nothing for the google docs bit of the equation you just need to register for google docs. The link to the google docs form is copied and pasted onto the existing website (I did need a little help from the creator with that! :( ) and that is basically the form installed.

First you would need a list of the data you wish to collect. Setting up the spreadsheet to meet the criteria you want is probably the most difficult bit, particularly where fields are compulsory ie must have an entry which equates to say a certain number or "rule" like a health certificate number. I lost my way with that and :blabla: phoned a friend who is excellent on spreadsheets! However the process is simple, cheap and saves heaps of time and telephone calls and meets our needs.

It's never easy to change the status quo, especially when the folks involved are perhaps older and of a fixed mindset, but the advantages to both the breed and club in this case are plain to see.