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Should the ckcs club now publish a list of ckcs club members who are breeders?

Bet

Well-known member
The more you think about this,the more Logical it would be for the UK CKCS CLUB to Publish a List of Responsible Cavalier Club Members who are Breeders of Cavaliers.

That those Cavalier Members Health Test and follow the Breeding Guidelines issued by the CKCS CLUB and the Researchers into SM and MVD in their Cavalier Breeding Stock .

I will mention again the the Breeding Guidelines.

Not to Breed from a Cavalier until He or She is 2.5 years of age and not to be suffering from SM or MVD.

That Parents Health Status is known at 5 .

This List could also encourage Prospective Cavalier Buyers not to buy Cavaliers from those Dreadful Puppy Farms.

I know that Health Testing and following Breeding Guidelines won't Guarantee that the Cavalier from developing SM or MVD in the Future,but if the CKCS CLUB PUBLISHED a List giving the names of Responsible Cavalier Breeders who are Members of the CKCS CLUB, this would surely give Confidence to Cavalier Buyers.

Bet
 
The more you think about this,the more Logical it would be for the UK CKCS CLUB to Publish a List of Responsible Cavalier Club Members who are Breeders of Cavaliers.

That those Cavalier Members Health Test and follow the Breeding Guidelines issued by the CKCS CLUB and the Researchers into SM and MVD in their Cavalier Breeding Stock .

I will mention again the the Breeding Guidelines.

Not to Breed from a Cavalier until He or She is 2.5 years of age and not to be suffering from SM or MVD.

That Parents Health Status is known at 5 .

This List could also encourage Prospective Cavalier Buyers not to buy Cavaliers from those Dreadful Puppy Farms.

I know that Health Testing and following Breeding Guidelines won't Guarantee that the Cavalier from developing SM or MVD in the Future,but if the CKCS CLUB PUBLISHED a List giving the names of Responsible Cavalier Breeders who are Members of the CKCS CLUB, this would surely give Confidence to Cavalier Buyers.

Bet


SHOULD THE CKCS CLUB NOW PUBLISH A LIST OF CLUB MEMBERS WHO ARE BREEDERS?


I have just received a Private E-Mail about my Suggestion that the CKCS CLUB should Publish a List of Cavalier Members who Health Test and follow the Breeding Guidelines for SM and MVD in their Cavalier Breeding Stock.

This Lady is in complete agreement with this suggestion.

The CKCS CLUB must realize that the CLUB MEMBERS who are Breeders ,that those Breeders must share information ,declare and divulge the Information that will ultimately Protect our Cavalier Breed's Future.

SM and MVD are nothing to be ashamed of ,unless Cavaliers are being used knowing them to have a Genetic Fault and have failed to declare it, share this this Information and warn others about it.

Not just other Cavalier Breeders , but the Unsupecting Cavalier buying Public.

This is where the CKCS HEALTH REPRESENTATIVES and the Chairman of the Liason CKCS COMMITTEE should say that this is a Worth-While Thought.

This particular Ball is now in the Court of the CKCS CLUB.

If they are unable to Publish a List , I am sure Many Cavalier Owners will be wondering why it cannot be done.

Bet
 
Hello Bet

Just to clarify you think that the main Cavalier Club should publish a list of all members who breed and then quantify that by naming only members on that list who follow all the required Cavalier health tests and also follow the Breeding Guidelines as issued by the parent Cavalier Club .So in effect there would then be two lists of current (say within the last five years for breeding ) breeders ,one of good who follow all the guidelines and are truly open,caring and honest and the other of breeders who don't follow the guidelines and hide and mask certain unhelpful results which if so could then lead to dishonesty ,:) deceitfulness and lying to protect their standing .Is that right Bet if so who (breeder ) would you say should appear on either list .

ps you can always send me a pm with names
 
Hmmm.......I have a different feeling about this, and I'm not sure if anyone else feels this way. I don't want - nor do I trust - anyone else to do my due diligence for me. I may have different desires and beliefs about what I want in a breeder and/or in a Cavalier than the list overseers who decide what breeders to put on the naughty and nice lists. In other words - I want to do my own investigation and make my own decisions. If I'm going to purchase a dishwasher, I don't expect to go to consumer reports and blindly follow their choices. That might not be the right choice for me; I want to do my own investigation and analysis.

And, club members have a hard time agreeing on anything - how in the world could members even come up with the criteria to be on these lists without the result being death and dismemberment??!! Who is going to have the final veto on whether or not someone ends up on one list or the other? And, who is going to provide the manpower (paid or free?) to go around and check that all the i's are dotted and t's are crossed in order for breeders to remain on the nice list?

I think that some of the forums that have guides to puppy buying are helpful and give prospective owners food for thought. Prospective owners can read those guidelines and decide for themselves which things are important to them. I've found over many years, though, that first time Cavalier buyers almost never do their homework as they are way too eager to get a puppy quickly. They just don't believe that anything bad is going to happen to them. It is repeat purchasers that tend to be more discerning.

Pat (who adopted the scraggly looking Cavalier off the street last year with no due diligence at all!)
 
:lol: Pat, I think I would tend to agree with you on this. It is also one of the problems with the proposals for the accredited breeders scheme to the kennel club. It is already widely stated (whether true or not, I don't know) that several puppy farmers –or breeders who are little better than... have gotten accredited breeder status because nobody bothers to check what anybody is doing.

I do think that a breeder or club run health database that includes results voluntarily would be a big plus for many breeders and puppy buyers. Many right now say that because results are kept so secretive, they cannot find studs in particular that have been scanned. There are also breeders who do scan who say they cannot find buyers for their litters–but that is because buyers have no idea where to go to find out about litters from scanning breeders. But I do think breeders themselves have to organize these resources. And then, it has to be up to the buyer to do the hard work to make sure that things are as is claimed or implied. I know there is a lot of interest in puppies from scanning breeders, because many send me e-mails and messages to the board. But I have no way of giving them suggestions of where to go to at least shorten the search so that they don't call 100 breeders trying to find somebody who scans. :(

I do think that having a list of scanned cavaliers with no detail, such as the one on the UK club site, is potentially very misleading. Because there are no results, breeders can scan a single dog just to be on the list and buyers might easily see that single scan as an indication that the breeder scans generally–and of course they do, you see people post to this effect all the time.

The kennel club could change things if it required certain health tests of individual breeds if the puppies are to be given registration. They could also require that health information appear on a pedigree, say. They could also run a health database and require breeding dogs producing registered litters be listed.

If all the first-time puppy buyers that said they were definitely only going to buy from a health focused breeder actually did just that, and did more than just ask some cursory questions (as it is very clear that many who think they have bought from health focus breeders who test, have actually done nothing of the sort and have been duped into thinking some basic meaningless tests are adequate)… The buyers would be a very effective force for change as breeders will absolutely respond to what buyers demand. But right now, too many people want a cheaper puppy in the color that they want today rather than waiting until tomorrow or next month or next year. And a lot of them suffer the consequences of a rash purchase. I think almost everybody is far more careful the second time around.
 
The kennel club could change things if it required certain health tests of individual breeds if the puppies are to be given registration. They could also require that health information appear on a pedigree, say. They could also run a health database and require breeding dogs producing registered litters be listed.

The buyers would be a very effective force for change as breeders will absolutely respond to what buyers demand. But right now, too many people want a cheaper puppy in the color that they want today rather than waiting until tomorrow or next month or next year. And a lot of them suffer the consequences of a rash purchase. I think almost everybody is far more careful the second time around.

Yup - too bad neither of those things are ever gonna happen. At least not in the good old U.S. of A.

A couple of us on the national board of CKCSC USA (you would recognize the other names) tried to start a discussion back in the 90's around ideas in your first point. Way, way too much opposition.

And there are never going to be enough educated and discerning puppy buyers with enough market power to put a dent in the activity of the mills, backyard breeders, etc.

I have lived too long and my naivete is gone.......

Pat
 
Unfortunately we live in an I want it now world or country. Just like some breeders choose to ignore health testing or problems, I have seen cavalier owners do the same.

I have 2 times this year been close to getting another Cavalier. Ellas breeder said when the time was right, she would give me another cavalier, however, that is not going to be the road I go down now especially after other things. The first time I saw her at a show and she said she had a puppy then. Wow! Right now, it was so tempting but thankfully I thought about it hard. The mother was from ellas litter so as much as I wanted part of that connection, there were several issues not only with SM factor.

Second time, it was to place a 6 year old that was done breeding. I talked to nicki who helped me and again I knew it was not the right choice. Now I am waiting for a good foster or just the right time. Even on the other post I said I want him, but somehow pet owners have to realize and even me, that no matter if they had breeders who are on the "nice" list, it could change and they could have a litter not under protocols. They could mri but we need to know what the results were and see them for ourselves. So its up to the pet owner to "buy" the breeder. Usually when someone starts looking, they want a puppy and the breeder is just the delivery.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk
 
I meant to say foster and right time. I will know when the time is right and right now is about ella. Its just comforting to know that I can do that someday.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk
 
Interesting points from Pat and Karlin.

Thinking about the problem from a slightly different angle, would it not be possible for the club to have a list of litters available from health tested parents rather than a list of breeders who health test?

Perhaps the template could start with the test/scan certificate numbers of the sire and dam so that only when those details/fields were entered could the litter from health tested parents could be included?

That should prevent the unscrupulous breeder from health testing one dog or bitch just to "get on the list" by ensuring that the certificates relate only to the parents of that particular litter.
 
Interesting points from Pat and Karlin.

Thinking about the problem from a slightly different angle, would it not be possible for the club to have a list of litters available from health tested parents rather than a list of breeders who health test?

Perhaps the template could start with the test/scan certificate numbers of the sire and dam so that only when those details/fields were entered could the litter from health tested parents could be included?

That should prevent the unscrupulous breeder from health testing one dog or bitch just to "get on the list" by ensuring that the certificates relate only to the parents of that particular litter.

SHOULD THE CKCS CLUB NOW PUBLISH A LIST OF CKCS CLUB MEMBERS WHO ARE BREEDERS?


Thanks Fifer for this suggestion ,this a far better way of going about this,

Because the UK CKCS CLUB issued their Breeding Guidelines in 1987, then surely the Club cannot possibly have any objections to Publishing a List of Cavalier Puppies from Cavalier Members who have Health Tested and followed the CLUB'S Breeding Guidelines and have Cavalier Puppies available.

This is all that is needed.

Bet
 
There is a puppy register form on the UK parent club website and it does have an optional section for breeders to fill in to show that health tests have been done for eyes, heart and MRI scans, and the most recent date, and I think this is fair, the purchaser can decide whether or not they want to contact any breeders that haven't given details of health certs - that's up to them.
At least they have the freedom of choice.
 
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Hello Davecav

Where can I go online to view the breeders completed puppy register forms which may or may not have the optional health test parts completed , please.
 
There is a puppy register form on the UK parent club website and it does have an optional section for breeders to fill in to show that health tests have been done for eyes, heart and MRI scans, and the most recent date, and I think this is fair, the purchaser can decide whether or not they want to contact any breeders that haven't given details of health certs - that's up to them.
At least they have the freedom of choice.


SHOULD THE CKCS CLUB NOW PUBLISH A LIST OF CKCS CLUB MEMBERS WHO ARE BREEDERS?


Davecav,

I have just read the Puppy Register Form on the CKCS WEB SITE ,and the name of the PUPPY CO-Cordinator ,but no mention of where a Prospective Cavalier Buyer can see a List of Cavalier Puppies available from a Cavalier Breeder who is a Club Member who has Health Tested and followed the Breeding Guidelines for those Puppies.

Why is there not a List Published of avaliable Puppies whose Parents have been Health Tested and the Breeding Guidelines followed.

Will the PUPPY CO-ORDINATOR make available the Information as to whether the Puppies Names she has ,have come from Cavalier Member Breeders who have Health Tested and followed the Breeding Guidelines for those Puppies.

The next Question has to be just how many Cavalier Breeders who are CLUB Members ,are filling in the PUPPY REGISTER FORM giving the Details of those Puppies that they have for sale?

Bet
 
Hello Davecav

Where can I go online to view the breeders completed puppy register forms which may or may not have the optional health test parts completed , please.


SHOULD THE CKCS CLUB NOW PUBLISH A LIST OF CKCS CLUB MEMBERS WHO ARE BREEDERS.


Brian M

I would also like to get the answer to your Question from Davecav.

Bet
 
There is a puppy register form on the UK parent club website and it does have an optional section for breeders to fill in to show that health tests have been done for eyes, heart and MRI scans, and the most recent date, and I think this is fair, the purchaser can decide whether or not they want to contact any breeders that haven't given details of health certs - that's up to them.
At least they have the freedom of choice.

Sorry I disagree.

If the health section is "optional" I wouldn't call that "fair", I'd call it 'sitting on the fence'. :wink:

By putting both tested and untested on the same list, the club is avoiding the issue (and responsibility) of health testing before breeding, leaving any potential new pet purchaser confused and shouldering the responsibility of their purchase ie caveat emptor. In a breed where secrecy of health results is rampant and the diseases so severe, that is simply a nonsense.

Any breeder should be proud to health test and proud to declare it for all to see; even if the results aren't perfect it is better than not testing at all. Likewise, clubs should be proud of (and promote) health testing members.

A purchaser should see the breed club litter list as the safest option, representing the highest standards for the breed. It should not be, nor appear to be, an old boys (or girls) club for promoting club members interests.

After all why would a potential purchaser not just buy from any freead site? There are loads of cavalier litters advertised, some tested some not. What difference the breed club list? Why on earth would any breed club not want to promote their very best and healthiest breeding??
 
There isn't an online list, I think it would be expecting a little too much for a volunteer to constantly update the list of puppies and it would probably get quickly out of date.

The way the system works is - If someone has a litter of pups for sale and is a club member they would fill in the form and send it to the puppy register co-ordinator.

If a buyer is looking for a puppy and has contacted the kennel club or breed club for a contact, they will be given the co-ordinators telephone number so they can contact them by phone to find out if there are any suitable puppies.

I guess, but I don't know, that the co-ordinator will explain which puppies are from health tested parents. It would then (as I said) be up to the puppy buyer to decide which breeder(s) to contact.

It really isn't all that difficult!!!!!

I would think most breeders who use the facility will fill in the health section - it makes sense if they want to sell their puppies.

As for the breeders that choose not to put health details down - I would think they won't get too many (any) telephones calls!

Fifer you say:
If the health section is "optional" I wouldn't call that "fair", I'd call it 'sitting on the fence'. :wink:

It could be called sitting on the fence, but the health tests are not madatory, so the club cannot penalize breeders who choose not to disclose whether they have tested or not. All club members have a right, at present, to use the facility to sell their puppies. As I see it, anyone who doesn't put health tests down for whatever reason will be at a disadvantage.
 
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There isn't an online list, I think it would be expecting a little too much for a volunteer to constantly update the list of puppies and it would probably get quickly out of date.

The way the system works is - If someone has a litter of pups for sale and is a club member they would fill in the form and send it to the puppy register co-ordinator.

If a buyer is looking for a puppy and has contacted the kennel club or breed club for a contact, they will be given the co-ordinators telephone number so they can contact them by phone to find out if there are any suitable puppies.

I guess, but I don't know, that the co-ordinator will explain which puppies are from health tested parents. It would then (as I said) be up to the puppy buyer to decide which breeder(s) to contact.

It really isn't all that difficult!!!!!

I would think most breeders who use the facility will fill in the health section - it makes sense if they want to sell their puppies.

As for the breeders that choose not to put health details down - I would think they won't get too many (any) telephones calls!

What a convoluted system! :sl*p: This is the 21st century it is really just as simple (or as complicated) as the club/s want it to be!

For example, I'm a volunteer with little time to call my own but, our rescue has direct on-line forms completed by the applicant which transfer directly to google docs spreadsheets, I get a notification by email and see the results on screen with one click. I don't have to fill in anything, post anything or wait for the phone to ring!

A similar database could easily be set up for litters available and viewable on-line!

It's not rocket science is it?

Another point which should perhaps be raised here, is that a viewable on-line litter database removes any possible allegation of 'favouritism' to any breeder on the part of the puppy coordinator and may in fact remove the need for such a position.
 
Leading by Example

There isn't an online list, I think it would be expecting a little too much for a volunteer to constantly update the list of puppies and it would probably get quickly out of date.

The way the system works is - If someone has a litter of pups for sale and is a club member they would fill in the form and send it to the puppy register co-ordinator.

If a buyer is looking for a puppy and has contacted the kennel club or breed club for a contact, they will be given the co-ordinators telephone number so they can contact them by phone to find out if there are any suitable puppies.

I guess, but I don't know, that the co-ordinator will explain which puppies are from health tested parents. It would then (as I said) be up to the puppy buyer to decide which breeder(s) to contact.

It really isn't all that difficult!!!!!

I would think most breeders who use the facility will fill in the health section - it makes sense if they want to sell their puppies.

As for the breeders that choose not to put health details down - I would think they won't get too many (any) telephones calls!

Fifer you say:
If the health section is "optional" I wouldn't call that "fair", I'd call it 'sitting on the fence'. :wink:

It could be called sitting on the fence, but the health tests are not madatory, so the club cannot penalize breeders who choose not to disclose whether they have tested or not. All club members have a right, at present, to use the facility to sell their puppies. As I see it, anyone who doesn't put health tests down for whatever reason will be at a disadvantage.

It was a great step forward when the Cavalier Club added the optional health section, and I applaud them for that, but it is not enough for a breed that needs to show it is capable of self-regulation and able to put the welfare of the dogs before the interest of their members.

Another significant step happened at a recent regional club AGM, when the club members voted in favour of a proposal that all their elected committee members should breed in accordance with the club's Code of Best Practice.

Leading by example........... there are similar proposals being put at other forthcoming AGMs.
Another chance to show whether cavalier breeders are willing to take responsibility for regulating themselves, or whether they are still willing to stand by and see some of their elected representatives destroy what concientious breeders are trying so hard to achieve.
 
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Should the ckcs club now publish a list of ckcs members who are breeders?

There isn't an online list, I think it would be expecting a little too much for a volunteer to constantly update the list of puppies and it would probably get quickly out of date.

The way the system works is - If someone has a litter of pups for sale and is a club member they would fill in the form and send it to the puppy register co-ordinator.

If a buyer is looking for a puppy and has contacted the kennel club or breed club for a contact, they will be given the co-ordinators telephone number so they can contact them by phone to find out if there are any suitable puppies.

I guess, but I don't know, that the co-ordinator will explain which puppies are from health tested parents. It would then (as I said) be up to the puppy buyer to decide which breeder(s) to contact.

It really isn't all that difficult!!!!!

I would think most breeders who use the facility will fill in the health section - it makes sense if they want to sell their puppies.

As for the breeders that choose not to put health details down - I would think they won't get too many (any) telephones calls!

Fifer you say:
If the health section is "optional" I wouldn't call that "fair", I'd call it 'sitting on the fence'. :wink:

It could be called sitting on the fence, but the health tests are not madatory, so the club cannot penalize breeders who choose not to disclose whether they have tested or not. All club members have a right, at present, to use the facility to sell their puppies. As I see it, anyone who doesn't put health tests down for whatever reason will be at a disadvantage.


SHOULD THE CKCS CLUB NOW PUBLISH A LIST OF CKCS MEMBERS WHO ARE BREEDERS?


Davecav,

I think that the $ 64.000 Question is as you have mentioned ,it is up to the Prospective Cavalier Puppy Buyer to decide which Cavalier Breeder they want to buy their Cavalier Puppy from.

How can they do this if they don't know which Cavalier Club Breeder Health Tests and follows the Clubs Breeding Guidelines for SM and MVD.

Have they to ask the Cavalier Club Breeder this Question and be Insulted by the Response some will get?

I know this happens as I have mentioned before ,because I was involved with the Dogs Today as a Cavalier Breed Adviser for a few years, and had a List of Cavalier Puppies Available from Club Members,when the Enquiries were made to me about some-one wanting a Cavalier Puppy ,I always said to ask if the Breeder had Health Tested the Puppies Sire and Dam.

Sadly a number of those Folk came back to me in Tears because of the Abuse they'd been given by those Cavalier Club Breeders when they had been asked this Question.

What a difference it would have made to them ,instead of having having this Abuse meted out to them if they could have seen a List Published by the CKCS CLUB of Cavalier CLUB Breeders who had Cavalier Puppies available ,and Health Tested and followed the Breeding Guidelines as issued by the CKCS CLUB in 1987.


Bet
 
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