PDA

View Full Version : Is THIS GOING TO BE ANOTHER ATTEMPT at SPINNING THE MVD FIGURES IN CAVALIRES?



Bet
4th March 2011, 05:20 PM
I t is now being said that because the Health Representative of the UK CKCS CLUB is a lot better informed about the Figures of MVD in our Cavalier Breed and she does not believe those figures the Researchers have given as 50% of Cavaliers have a Heart Murmur at 5-6 years of age,the MVD Researchers information about those MVD Figures are years out of date ,because their Data base has not been up-dated .

That things should now change with the Forward looking Committee at the Helm ,and there will be a more accurate MVD Figure soon avaliable.

AM I being Cynical that the New MVD Figures to be Released from the New CKCS Committee will be what they want to convince the Prospective Buying Cavalier Public ,that there is really not much of a MVD Problem with our Cavaliers, believe us and not the MVD Researchers who are doing the Research into MVD in Cavaliers.

Bet

Margaret C
4th March 2011, 07:50 PM
the MVD Researchers information about those MVD Figures are years out of date ,because their Data base has not been up-dated .


Bet

Same old claptrap I'm afraid.

There is a list of cavaliers, over five years old and heart clear, on the Cavalier Club website. It is dated from 30th August 2010, so I don't think it could be much more up-to-date.

What is puzzling is the lack of names from certain kennels that boast of their long-lived, murmur-free cavaliers and protest that the figures are incorrect.

Why would someone who frequently posts about an unbelievably large number of MVD free oldies, on so many of the internet forums, fail to send in their heart certificates so they can be added to the Cavalier Club's official record?

Surely these many, many, murmur free cavaliers that are over ten years old need to be on the list if the figures are to be truly representative?

GraciesMom
4th March 2011, 08:17 PM
Good grief. It is just one thing after another! Thanks for calling our attention to this.

Margaret C
5th March 2011, 01:16 AM
For years former Cavalier Club Chairman, Lesley Jupp, spent countless hours putting the information into the heart scheme database and only handed the task over a few years ago.

Quote from Simon Swift's talk at the Cavalier Club AGM in 2009

"Comparing 1991 and 2009, most dogs under 5 were murmur free however most dogs over 6 had a murmur. There was little difference between the two years suggesting little change in incidence over the 18 years."

It really would not seem that the MVD Figures could be that many years out of date?

There is an official BVA/KC Heart Scheme planned. It was agreed in April 2008, at the same time as the MRI scheme.
This heart scheme seems to have stalled a little but, with MVD being the major cause of death for Cavaliers, this is something that will surely be given priority by the new Cavalier Health Liaison Council.

It is probably the only way of providing the accurate figures that will show whether the rates of early onset MVD are improving or not.

Pat
5th March 2011, 02:13 AM
Just spent a couple of hours gathering some info to respond to this. I might crash the site with the volume of info, so I'll post in several parts to try to keep it manageable. Guess I'll find out if Karlin has a limit to what one can say on one thread!

Part I

First, the information needed to answer this question does not come from the heart clear lists but would be a compilation of data from the various countries' heart clinics that take place at many club shows. As an example - back in the mid 1990's I worked with cardiologist Gil Jacobs at every Cavaliers of the South (regional CKCSC USA club) heart clinic. There would usually be over 100 Cavaliers for each clinic (almost 100% club registered) and Gil would grade each dog. He would send to me a compilation of the stats from each clinic which would be a very simple chart showing the ages of dogs tested and under each age there would be total number with a murmur and a total number clear. Percentages of Cavaliers with murmurs at each age were easily calculated. At that time I was also the COS newsletter editor, and I'd always post a report in the newsletter. This was all confidential - the info given to me was just raw numbers with no Cavalier identified.

If every club (in all countries) heart clinic would turn in a compilation such as I describe above and all of these individual stats were compiled into one data base, we would have a pretty accurate idea of what the true stats were for club registered Cavaliers. (Most pet owners with puppy farm/pet store Cavaliers would not know about club clinics and would not be attending, so this info would not be skewed by poorly bred Cavaliers.) After a year or two, there should be a pretty large number in the data base if all clubs and all countries were to participate.

Part II will appear shortly!

Pat
5th March 2011, 02:31 AM
Part II

The figures that we all quote were based on several large studies that took place in the early to mid-1990s. These studies were compiled from many club shows' heart clinics, and the studies include:

UK - Peter Darke - 1993
US - Andrew Beardow and James Buchanan - 1993
Sweden - Haggstrom - 1992

I have copies of the above reports and have read them many times. It's not difficult to find copies of these studies if one cares to see them.

There is another study by Simon Swift in the UK in 1996, and another in 1996 by Darke, Fuentes, Kvart, Habgstrom, Swenson. I don't recall reading these complete papers, but I think they show similar stats as the three studies above.

Gil Jacobs did a presentation to CKCSC USA in 1997, and the panel of four international cardiologists (Keene, Beardow, Fuentes, Buchanan (?? memory failing) and Swedish geneticist Swenson presented the famous CKCSC symposium in 1998. Both presentations were in Atlanta, and I attended both. I think I sat near Rod in 1998 - can't remember if he attended in 1997.

There must be several thousand Cavaliers covered by all of the studies listed above which is a pretty good representation of club produced Cavaliers in three countries during this time period. All of these studies/seminars presented similar stats, and these are the oft quoted figures that breeders in 2011 are questioning as to whether the stats still hold true.

Part III next......I'm sure everyone is holding their breath.....I'd put a smiley face if I knew how to add it..

Pat
5th March 2011, 02:46 AM
Part III

I just spent a looonnnggg time on Rod's site going through the bibliography of cardiology studies. I found a couple of newer studies, and I've cut and pasted the info below. I have added some of my own thoughts by typing NOTES: and then my thoughts follow. Sorry this one is long.

Caractéristiques épidémiologiques, cliniques, écho-doppler de l’endocardiose mitrale chez le Cavalier King Charles en France: étude rétrospective de 451 cas (1995 à 2003). Valérie Chetboul, Renaud Tissier, Florence Villaret, Audrey Nicolle, Eric Déan, Thierry Benalloul, Jean-Louis Pouchelon. Can Vet J 2004;45:1012–1015. Quote: "A study performed on 451 Cavalier King Charles showed that 40.6% of dogs had a left apical systolic heart murmur, whose prevalence increased with age (11-year-old, 100%), but was not different between males and females.." NOTES: Rod, you have a typo on your site – should not be .11 year old but 11 year old. I found several pdfs of this study but each said it was 10 to 14 minutes to download so I aborted that effort. (Ha - I'm not as OCD as most of you think!!) I was curious to see if there was an age chart showing the percentage of Cavaliers with murmurs at various ages. Someone more patient than I can google and download the pdf and figure this out.

Degenerative Mitral Valve Disease Prevalence in King Charles Spaniels. Odhelius A. Master thesis 2005:1, Swedish Univ. of Agricultural Sciences. NOTES: I googled and downloaded this study but it is for English Toy Spaniels and not for Cavaliers. Hopefully this link will work but if not just google the study and the pdf will pop up as the second entry. IMPORTANT: There is a chart on page 10 in this study showing the statistics found by Darke and Haagstrom and Buchanan in the 1990’s for CKCS and comparing with King Charles Spaniels. These are really good charts, and the download was very fast. This chart pretty much explains exactly WHERE these stats that many of us quote originated – from the work of Darke, Beardow & Buchanan, Haggstrom and Swift back in the early to mid 1990’s.

www.makenna.se/heart/resources/DMVD.pdf

Heritability of premature mitral valve disease in Cavalier King Charles spaniels. Tom Lewis, Simon Swift, John A. Woolliams, and Sarah Blott. Vet J. May 2010.Quote: "Mixed model analysis of 1252 records of cardiac auscultation of ≥4- to <5-year-old Cavalier King Charles spaniels (CKCS) from 1991 to 2008 in conjunction with the Kennel Club pedigree records of all dogs registered from the mid 1980s to September 2007 was used to estimate variance parameters of premature mitral valve disease (MVD). Data were limited to dogs 4 and <5 years of age to ensure diagnostic distinction between early and late onset MVD. Cardiac murmurs were detected in 108/1252 (8.6%) dogs. (cut some text here) These results indicate that the presence and severity of MVD, as assessed by cardiac auscultation, in 4- to 5-year-old CKCS is highly heritable and that selection against the disease should be successful." NOTES: Wish they had stats for CKCS of ages other than 4-5 year olds. IMPORTANT NOTE – from reading this abstract, 8.6% of CKCS ages 4-5 had murmurs. Note that these 1252 records are from 1991 to 2008. I’d like to see this info broken out year by year since this appears to be 1282 dogs (a good number) BUT over an 18 year period so the average is only 69 dogs per year. So I don’t have a good feel for what these numbers really mean or if they are statistically significant as far as telling us the percentage of CKCS with murmurs at various ages over a span of 18 years. Perhaps someone knows more specifics about this study. I didn't look for the entire study since I've already spent so much time on this endeavor and wasn't willing to take the necessary time to analyze this one study.

Evaluation of the Swedish breeding program for cavalier King Charles spaniels. Tobias Lundin, Clarence Kvart.
Acta Veterinaria Scandinavica, Sept. 2010, 52:54. Quote: (Cut a lot of text to shorten) The aim of this investigation was to study the prevalence of heart murmurs in the Swedish population of six-year-old CKCS born 2001 and 2003, and to estimate if prevalence has decreased since the breeding program was introduced 2001. ... In this investigation 353 CKCS were selected as a sample of the population and 150 were examined by auscultation for heart murmurs when they reached the age of six years in 2007 and 2009. ... The effect of the breeding program was evaluated by comparing the prevalence of heart murmurs in the two groups. In 2007, the prevalence of heart murmurs was 52% (50% for females and 54% for males) and in 2009, the prevalence was 55% (44% for females and 67% for males). No significant difference was found in the prevalence of heart murmurs between 2007 and 2009. For all six-year-old CKCS, the prevalence of heart murmur was 53% (females 46% and males 61%), which is higher than previous Swedish investigations. ... The result from this investigation indicates that the prevalence of MMVD in six-year-old cavalier King Charles spaniels, born 2001 and 2003, is at least 50% and lacks signs of decrease despite the current breeding program introduced in Sweden 2001." NOTES: We’ve discussed this study quite a bit here. This sample is quite a bit smaller than those samples done in the various studies in the early to mid 1990’s. I won't comment further since we've discussed this one to death.

End of Part III. Time for a bathroom break and maybe a cookie.

Pat
5th March 2011, 03:26 AM
Part IV

I suspect that the reason we aren't seeing new published studies on Cavalier heart stats is that, for veterinary cardiologist researchers, the fact that there is extensive endocardiosis in the breed and it is inherited in some fashion is OLD news. Cardiologists want to do studies on more "exciting" topics such as the efficacy of various new meds; whether or not early meds can prolong the occult stage (the stage where there are no overt symptoms); new advances in surgery or other high tech "fixes;" research into the etiology of endocardiosis (such as the work with serotonin); diagnosis, staging and treatment of endocardiosis; etc., etc. Also remember that money is needed to fund research - drug companies put money into studies on the efficacy of heart meds, etc. Look at the recent drug trials with companies looking for the magic bullet to prolong the occult phase. But I digress.....

Sooo.......this is where the clubs come into play. I haven't been on the club scene since 2000, but I would hope that each club still compiles data from each sponsored heart clinic. As I said in part I, it seems that clubs could compile and share this data and could get a pretty sizable data base on current Cavaliers which would give the answer to the question that breeders are currently asking - are these stats from the 1990's STILL accurate?

So, as Nike says - just do it. Breeders and pet owners could together sponsor more club clinics, bring all of their Cavaliers - pet, show, breeding, retired, young, middle aged and old - and have them tested at these clinics, compile the data from each clinic, and submit it to some central location for compilation. This isn't rocket science it is just crunching numbers. (This is how these studies were done in the 1990's.) I'd really like to know the answer to this question. And then ALL of us would know the answer and we wouldn't have to sit around and argue and speculate.

Pat

Added: Sending in heart certificates doesn't answer this question because we only send in clear certs. A large random number of tested Cavaliers is needed, so you bring in all of your dogs whether you think they are going to pass or not. And all grading must be done by cardiologists.

Bet
5th March 2011, 09:35 AM
Part II

The figures that we all quote were based on several large studies that took place in the early to mid-1990s. These studies were compiled from many club shows' heart clinics, and the studies include:

UK - Peter Darke - 1993
US - Andrew Beardow and James Buchanan - 1993
Sweden - Haggstrom - 1992

I have copies of the above reports and have read them many times. It's not difficult to find copies of these studies if one cares to see them.

There is another study by Simon Swift in the UK in 1996, and another in 1996 by Darke, Fuentes, Kvart, Habgstrom, Swenson. I don't recall reading these complete papers, but I think they show similar stats as the three studies above.

Gil Jacobs did a presentation to CKCSC USA in 1997, and the panel of four international cardiologists (Keene, Beardow, Fuentes, Buchanan (?? memory failing) and Swedish geneticist Swenson presented the famous CKCSC symposium in 1998. Both presentations were in Atlanta, and I attended both. I think I sat near Rod in 1998 - can't remember if he attended in 1997.

There must be several thousand Cavaliers covered by all of the studies listed above which is a pretty good representation of club produced Cavaliers in three countries during this time period. All of these studies/seminars presented similar stats, and these are the oft quoted figures that breeders in 2011 are questioning as to whether the stats still hold true.

Part III next......I'm sure everyone is holding their breath.....I'd put a smiley face if I knew how to add it..


IS THIS GOING TO BE ANOTHER ATTEMPT AT SPINNING THE MVD FIGURES IN CAVALIERS?


Pat,

I am so grateful for you taking the trouble to give us this Information, I have Printed it off and will be reading it a few times, if it's possible though ,could you please send me the figures from the Cardiologists that you have Quoted.

Here's my E-Mail Address

fleek@uwclub.net

Thanks again.

Bet

Bet
5th March 2011, 02:20 PM
IS THIS GOING TO BE ANOTHER ATTEMPT AT SPINNING THE MVD FIGURES IN CAVALIERS?


Pat,

I am so grateful for you taking the trouble to give us this Information, I have Printed it off and will be reading it a few times, if it's possible though ,could you please send me the figures from the Cardiologists that you have Quoted.

Here's my E-Mail Address

fleek@uwclub.net

Thanks again.

Bet


IS THIS GOING TO BE ANOTHE ATTEMPT AT SPINNING THE MVD FIGURES IN CAVALIERS?


Could I add this, that Simon Swift mentioned at the 2009 UK CKCS CLUB'S AGM that the DATA BASE suggests that 50% of Cavaliers develope Murmurs at a later age than the 5 years suggested earlier ,this though is probably a Reflection of the Selection of Dogs presented i.e. the sample tested is not Random but rather selected to be brought to Shows as they are thought to be Murmur Free.

If this is still happening how will we ever get a True Picture of the MVD Problem in Cavaliers.

Bet

Margaret C
5th March 2011, 08:33 PM
Thank you for that Pat, you are amazingly knowledgeable.






So, as Nike says - just do it. Breeders and pet owners could together sponsor more club clinics, bring all of their Cavaliers - pet, show, breeding, retired, young, middle aged and old - and have them tested at these clinics, compile the data from each clinic, and submit it to some central location for compilation. This isn't rocket science it is just crunching numbers. (This is how these studies were done in the 1990's.) I'd really like to know the answer to this question. And then ALL of us would know the answer and we wouldn't have to sit around and argue and speculate.

Pat

Added: Sending in heart certificates doesn't answer this question because we only send in clear certs. A large random number of tested Cavaliers is needed, so you bring in all of your dogs whether you think they are going to pass or not. And all grading must be done by cardiologists.

Wouldn't that be wonderful.

I think( hope )that the best figures we are ever likely to get are going to come through something like this scheme, which will automatically take information from veterinary practice software.......... http://www.rvc.ac.uk/VEctAR/

Isn't technology marvellous?

anniemac
5th March 2011, 10:06 PM
That sounds like a good idea. Pet owners could be able to help in such a project (even ella). I would love to tell pet owners how important to go to shows or wherever to get hearts tested by a cardiologist to be used for research. It seems like a win/win. Its not invasive as an mri and people should do this anyway, right?

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Bet
6th March 2011, 10:42 AM
Thank you for that Pat, you are amazingly knowledgeable.




Wouldn't that be wonderful.

I think( hope )that the best figures we are ever likely to get are going to come through something like this scheme, which will automatically take information from veterinary practice software.......... http://www.rvc.ac.uk/VEctAR/

Isn't technology marvellous?


IS THIS GOING TO BE ANOTHER ATTEMPT AT SPINNING THE MVD FIGURES IN CAVALIERS?

Margaret ,

This is great news ,that the Royal Veterinary College in collaberation with the University of Sydney is undertaking a Nationwide Survey of Small Animal Disease

I have just read the Link you gave ,in case any-one has not read it here is what it says.

The Aims of the Project are to Investigate the Range and Frequency of Small Animal Health Problems seen by Veterinary Surgeons working in General Practice in the United Kingdom and Highlight major Risk Factors for these Conditions.

This is what has been needed for such a Long Time.

Who better than the Vets to know about the Health Problems in our Cavaliers .

This Information the Statement goes onto mention ,will be an Invaluable Contribution to the Knowledge-base of both Veterinary Researchers and Practioners.

No longer will some Cavalier Breeders be able to Spin the MVD and SM Figures in our Cavalier Breed ,the Truth will be there for every-body to see.

What Great News this is for our Cherished Cavaliers.

Bet

Bet
6th March 2011, 12:58 PM
IS THIS GOING TO BE ANOTHER ATTEMPT AT SPINNING THE MVD FIGURES IN CAVALIERS?

Margaret ,

This is great news ,that the Royal Veterinary College in collaberation with the University of Sydney is undertaking a Nationwide Survey of Small Animal Disease

I have just read the Link you gave ,in case any-one has not read it here is what it says.

The Aims of the Project are to Investigate the Range and Frequency of Small Animal Health Problems seen by Veterinary Surgeons working in General Practice in the United Kingdom and Highlight major Risk Factors for these Conditions.

This is what has been needed for such a Long Time.

Who better than the Vets to know about the Health Problems in our Cavaliers .

This Information the Statement goes onto mention ,will be an Invaluable Contribution to the Knowledge-base of both Veterinary Researchers and Practioners.

No longer will some Cavalier Breeders be able to Spin the MVD and SM Figures in our Cavalier Breed ,the Truth will be there for every-body to see.

What Great News this is for our Cherished Cavaliers.

Bet


IS THIS GOING TO BE ANOTHER ATTEMPT AT SPINNING THE MVD FIGURES IN CAVALIERS?

Could I give some MVD Figures of Cavaliers from the UK CKCS CLUB's MVD Results at CLUB SHOWS to show how necessary this RVC Nationwide Survey is for our Cavalier Breed

Simon Swift , the CKCS CLUB'S Cardiologist said at the CLUB's AGM 2009,that the MVD Results taken at CLUB Shows is probably a Reflection of the Selection of Dogs presented ,i.e the sample Tested is not random but rather Selected to be brought to the Shows as they are thought to be Murmur Free

That Disappointingly few Dogs are Presented at 5-6 years of age , which is the Time that Testing is Critical according to the CKCS Breeding Program.

Here are some MVD Figures from Club Shows.

The CKCS CLUB'S CHAMPIONSHIP SHOW 2010.

There were 176 Cavaliers Examined

150 with No Murmur but

136 were between the ages of 1 to 4-5

only 9 at 5-6 at the Critical Age

The CLUB'S Championship SHOW 2009

186 Cavaliers Examined

153
No Murmur

Ages 1 to 4-5

145

1 at the Critical age of 5-6.

At the OPEN CLUB SHOW 2010

176 Cavaliers were Examined

150 No Murmur

AGES 1 to 4-5

136

the Critical Age of 5-6

9

I hope this has demostrated how Important it is for the RVC Survey to be Carried out Nation-wide in the UK.

It will surely Show how many Cavaliers have MVD at the Critical age of 5-6 since this is not being at CKCS Club Shows.

These Figures surely can't be mostly Cavaliers from Puppy Fatms and BYB'S the most will be Cavaliers Bred by CAVALIER CLUB MEMBERS.

Bet

Karlin
6th March 2011, 01:06 PM
Pat, what a fantastic effort to pull together those relevant studies and to take the time to highlight the conclusions.

I certainly hope some of the breeders debating this issue will read what you have posted (maybe they are, *cough*, unfamiliar with any of the studies?) , because it is just beyond belief that UK breeders are debating level of MVD incidence. There are so many studies already, as you say, that researchers are actually looking towards research that might help dogs with better medications or care regimes, or might produce new information to help the breed and breeders, rather than rehash what has been shown again and again and again and again and again… :sl*p:

The fact that there are people with the word “health” attached to their club roles :rolleyes: who are disputing these figures is just extraordinary. Can they possibly, truly believe heart statistics are incorrect after more than 20 years of compiling statistics internationally? Do they think their own cardiologist within the club makes up figures? That Sarah Blott does? And one has to seriously wonder why the prominent kennel names who dispute the figures and therefore, these studies are so reluctant to share the results of their own cardiology tests (assuming they actually use cardiologists and not vets, as was common particularly in the UK club, and in contrast to best practice internationally and in the US clubs).

What some in the club want is that classic diversionary tactic: to keep asking the same question in different ways, in the hopes that at some point the answer will suit them better. This is such a waste of time as well as research effort that could be better directed at moving things forward for the breed, rather than having to re-answer old questions. This faffing about is a depressingly consistent approach within some breeder circles. We have also seen this for a long time with SM research yet in study after study, the percentage of affected dogs keeps coming back with a (depressing and alarming) consistency regardless of where in the world the studies originated.

And at the end of the day, one really has to wonder what the hell it matters if by some long stretch of the imagination, it turned out the incidence is 40% or even 30% that have murmurs by age 5? I think any researcher (or intelligent breeder) would be astonished to see the incidence drop down to, say, 30%–and yet that is still a shocking one in three dogs that would have visible signs of disease that should only be seen in the elderly, not in the young and middle-aged cavaliers!! If somehow tomorrow we could achieve a reduction down to 30%, the breed would still be in a devastating situation in relation to its number one killer disease and this would still impact the life expectancy for the breed reducing it many years below the normn for toy breeds, and the problem would still bereave owners regularly and long before their dogs should grow ill and die.

So whatever these breeders' intention in wasting time on this point–and we all know that the breed does not have the luxury of time given the array of serious health issues it faces– it certainly is of no benefit to individual dogs, the breed, owners, or (as you would think some of these club members might notice) the breed club's battered profile. This rump of breeders continuously comes up with these ideas that make the entire club look like ignorant fools. Arguing about the incidence of MVD in the face of the breed's internationally recognized MVD epidemic is like worrying about how many deck chairs have been set out on the deck of the Titanic and whether the arrangement is pleasing.

Karlin
6th March 2011, 01:17 PM
Thanks Bet for those very revealing details about the club's statistics. The fact that only a meaninglessly trivial percentage each year are age 5 or older makes these compilations pretty useless. They would also seem to indicate that UK breeders do not want anybody to know the heart status of their dogs age 5+. icon_nwunsure

It also would seem to indicate that pet owners remain very unaware of the availability of these events, because I would think pet owners would seize on the opportunity to have their older Cavaliers heart checked by a cardiologist at low cost in at least as many numbers as would want younger cavaliers checked. The club heart events are a great way for anyone with a cavalier to get a far more informed picture of their dog's heart status then they will ever get from a vet.

I really encourage people on the board to utilize these events wherever they are in the world, because they provide a great opportunity for staying on top of your dog's heart health. Rod has an exhaustive list of clinics in North America at www.cavalierhealth.org. It would be great if something as accessible could be done for the UK clinics. If people provide the information, I will happily post them here.

Bet
6th March 2011, 07:40 PM
[removed by Admin. Bet, please do not post this kind of thing. I have asked before that discussions you may be following and which may involve you personally not be part of discussions here. Pat has wise advice below -- it is better to just ignore the personal element. The more general point -- of numerous club breeders wishing to dispute incidence on MVD -- is on an open forum and a matter of public record and is fine for discussion. -Karlin]

Pat
6th March 2011, 08:02 PM
Some thoughts in reply:

For the stats that Bet gave from UK CKCS club health days - are there charts showing the ages of the dogs tested and the number of clear/murmur for each age? I'm actually just as interested in ages 2, 3 and 4 results as age 5 because to me those are the "early onset" ages where life expectancy drops to the way-too-early demise at ages before 9 years old. I have heard some discussion in the US that the stats of this age group (1-4) have improved. I'd be really pleased to know that this is true since that would be a step in the right direction.

In the US, at least when I was active in the club, I would say that there were more pet Cavaliers brought to the club health clinics than breeding/show Cavaliers, and there were more Cavaliers of all ages represented. (This may have changed.) What is the mix of Cavaliers belonging to pet owners and breeders at these UK health clinics? I see that Kate took her two pets to a clinic in another thread.

Karlin - I like your Titanic deck chairs allusion! We know there is a serious problem here, so perhaps the exact numbers don't matter that much.

I am sorry to say that I don't think that the RVC survey is going to be particularly helpful in finding out if the old stats are the same or if they have improved. Here is why:

At least in the US, GP vets frequently don't even listen for murmurs in young/middle aged dogs and they aren't particularly skilled at hearing or paying much attention to or even reporting on low grade murmurs. I am a mentor in the yahoo group Canine Congestive Heart Failure. Most new members join the group when their dog is diagnosed to be in active heart failure, and the vast majority of these folks had no clue that their dog had a murmur before going into active heart failure. (These are people with dogs of all breeds.) I feel pretty certain that many low grade murmurs just aren't going to be caught or reported in this RVC survey and that the competency of GP vets is going to be so varied that these stats aren't going to be reliable. Also, how do we capture the stats on the number of Cavaliers presented that have no heart murmurs - is that part of the survey? I think that this widespread study on all aspects of canine health isn't going to be tightly enough controlled to give reliable stats on one particular health condition in one particular breed along with age of onset information. The stats will be way too generalized rather than specific. So, I'm sorry to say that I don't think this is going to be helpful at all in telling us what we want to know.

If the Cavaliers clubs and breeders truly want to know the accurate stats, it is incumbent upon them to do the research. I well understand not dragging your seniors to stand in line at club clinics - I stopped doing that myself because it was too hard on me and on my dogs and I had access to a cardiologist without going through a clinic. But - the clubs could set up an arrangement with a group of cardiologists in wide locations where both pet owners and breeders could take their Cavaliers for a low cost auscultation and those cardiologists could submit the results to be tabulated. The results would be submitted on every Cavalier presented - this would be different than sending in only the clear results to go on the list of heart-cleared Cavaliers. These various locations all over would make it easier for pet owners to have their pets screened as they wouldn't have to travel to shows or stand in line and breeders wouldn't have to drag their retired Cavaliers to a show so they wouldn't have to watch over so many dogs that weren't participating in that day's show. (I'm sure this is a reason that there aren't a lot of Cavaliers over 4 or 5 at the club clinics - show folks aren't going to bring all of their Cavaliers that are not entered in the show - too difficult to manage a lot of dogs on a trip and not in the best interests of the dogs, right?)

Unless something like this is undertaken, we have no alternative but to use the old stats from the 1990's. I think it is wasted energy to argue about this - it is what it is until there is an organized and wide effort to determine if the stats are truly different and/or improved. Everyone has their own anecdotal stats that will influence their views but until a serious effort is made to update the 90's studies, we have nothing else on which to base our comments.

Pat

Pat
6th March 2011, 08:14 PM
Bet, I'm only going to say this once, and I would ask that you please do not reply to me but just think about this. I'm never going to comment on this publicly again.

For your own benefit and for our benefit, please let this personal stuff go. It is not productive for you, and it is not productive for anyone else, Cavalier or human.

Most sincerely,

Pat

anniemac
6th March 2011, 10:02 PM
Some thoughts in reply:


At least in the US, GP vets frequently don't even listen for murmurs in young/middle aged dogs and they aren't particularly skilled at hearing or paying much attention to or even reporting on low grade murmurs. I am a mentor in the yahoo group Canine Congestive Heart Failure. Most new members join the group when their dog is diagnosed to be in active heart failure, and the vast majority of these folks had no clue that their dog had a murmur before going into active heart failure.

If the Cavaliers clubs and breeders truly want to know the accurate stats, it is incumbent upon them to do the research. But - the clubs could set up an arrangement with a group of cardiologists in wide locations where both pet owners and breeders could take their Cavaliers for a low cost auscultation and those cardiologists could submit the results to be tabulated. The results would be submitted on every Cavalier presented - this would be different than sending in only the clear results to go on the list of heart-cleared Cavaliers. These various locations all over would make it easier for pet owners to have their pets screened as they wouldn't have to travel to shows or stand in line and breeders wouldn't have to drag their retired Cavaliers to a show so they wouldn't have to watch over so many dogs that weren't participating in that day's show. (I'm sure this is a reason that there aren't a lot of Cavaliers over 4 or 5 at the club clinics - show folks aren't going to bring all of their Cavaliers that are not entered in the show

Pat

I am more interested in the pet owner side and what you said about many on the group not knowing. What you said triggered something. Many pet owners I would imagine, don't go to a cardiologist to have their hearts tested. I asked rod about this because he does have a great list of health clinics and its something to do every year whether for research or not.

We have a group (meet up club) in charlotte and I had ellas neurologist come talk last may. It would be worthwild to see if the cardiologist would come etc. It is a lot for people to travel, but what you said about having cardiologists participate worldwide is true. Whether for stats or not, I feel I am going to try to urge people to have their cavaliers hearts examined by a cardiologist. GP vets might miss something and judging from what you said that people did not know, it is something to do as well as eyes. Even for those not breeding but for our dogs health.

Thanks pat! I am going to atlanta for the show in may. I know other clinics in nc are listed, but it would be good to see if the cardiologist at carolina vet specialists would come to our group. I know he gave ellas neurologist his cards to give us when dr. Brofman spoke.

Really is it that much more expensive without clinics?

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

HollyDolly
6th March 2011, 11:44 PM
[removed by admin. Please do not hold a discussion about another board member like this (which is a violation of board guidelines). If you spot posts that seem to be problematical please privately draw them to my attention as I am not able to follow every post in every discussion. Thanks -Karlin]

RodRussell
7th March 2011, 12:25 AM
Part II

... Gil Jacobs did a presentation to CKCSC USA in 1997, and the panel of four international cardiologists (Keene, Beardow, Fuentes, Buchanan (?? memory failing) and Swedish geneticist Swenson presented the famous CKCSC symposium in 1998. Both presentations were in Atlanta, and I attended both. I think I sat near Rod in 1998 - can't remember if he attended in 1997. ...

Pat is correct about the cardios at the 1998 symposium, Keene and Buchanan from the US, Andy Beardow and Fuentes from the UK, and the most important cog in that wheel, Lennart Swenson from Sweden.

I was at both the Jacobs presentation in 1997 and the symposium in 1998. Gil Jacobs did an excellent job of explaining how MVD crops up, and his outline handout is still a treasured reference.

RodRussell
7th March 2011, 12:26 AM
Part III

Heritability of premature mitral valve disease in Cavalier King Charles spaniels. Tom Lewis, Simon Swift, John A. Woolliams, and Sarah Blott. Vet J. May 2010.Quote: "Mixed model analysis of 1252 records of cardiac auscultation of ≥4- to <5-year-old Cavalier King Charles spaniels (CKCS) from 1991 to 2008 in conjunction with the Kennel Club pedigree records of all dogs registered from the mid 1980s to September 2007 was used to estimate variance parameters of premature mitral valve disease (MVD). Data were limited to dogs 4 and <5 years of age to ensure diagnostic distinction between early and late onset MVD. Cardiac murmurs were detected in 108/1252 (8.6%) dogs. (cut some text here) These results indicate that the presence and severity of MVD, as assessed by cardiac auscultation, in 4- to 5-year-old CKCS is highly heritable and that selection against the disease should be successful." NOTES: Wish they had stats for CKCS of ages other than 4-5 year olds. IMPORTANT NOTE – from reading this abstract, 8.6% of CKCS ages 4-5 had murmurs. Note that these 1252 records are from 1991 to 2008. I’d like to see this info broken out year by year since this appears to be 1282 dogs (a good number) BUT over an 18 year period so the average is only 69 dogs per year. So I don’t have a good feel for what these numbers really mean or if they are statistically significant as far as telling us the percentage of CKCS with murmurs at various ages over a span of 18 years. Perhaps someone knows more specifics about this study. I didn't look for the entire study since I've already spent so much time on this endeavor and wasn't willing to take the necessary time to analyze this one study. ...

I have not yet read beyond this quoted post, which is on the first page of what now is three pages of this topic. So, I may be pointing out something that someone else already has covered. But, here is my comment about Pat's IMPORTANT NOTE above:

The study appears to have been for a limited purpose of measuring heritability, using a mixed model analysis to estimate the variance parameters of early-onset MVD. The UK data base as of the end of 2008 consisted of 8,667 tested cavaliers, and yet the researchers selected only a particular 1,252 from that group. It may have been limited to those with sufficient ancestor information in their pedigrees, which would aid in the heritability measurement. So, what the researchers were doing was not the same as reporting a complete statistical study.

RodRussell
7th March 2011, 12:43 AM
Part IV

I suspect that the reason we aren't seeing new published studies on Cavalier heart stats is that, for veterinary cardiologist researchers, the fact that there is extensive endocardiosis in the breed and it is inherited in some fashion is OLD news. ...

Well, hell yes! What more should we expect from them on this point? They spent over ten years, from 1988 (some , like Peter Darke, earlier) to compile their statistics, and then in 1997 (in the UK) and 1998 (in the US), they presented their findings along with canine geneticist Swenson's recommendation -- what now is called THE MVD Breeding Protocol.

They told us then two other things: First, that the MVD Breeding Protocol was a compromise, because if they had their way, they would call for no breeding prior to age 5 years. Second, they said nothing less would work.

In Sweden, beginning in 2001, the kennel club and the CKCS club tried something less, and in Dr. Kvart's September 2010 report, he confirmed that it did not work. He told me that he has recommended that the two clubs there follow Swenson's advice, for a change. I do not know what success he has had in convincing those clubs to do so.

But, back to my main point here: Why should we expect these researchers to have to keep repeating the same advice again in 2011 just because 95% of the cavalier breeders -- and BOTH USA CAVALIER CLUBS -- have elected to blow them all off and ignore the MVD Breeding Protocol?

They told us nothing less would work. Nothing less has worked. Case closed!

Bet
7th March 2011, 10:57 AM
Well, hell yes! What more should we expect from them on this point? They spent over ten years, from 1988 (some , like Peter Darke, earlier) to compile their statistics, and then in 1997 (in the UK) and 1998 (in the US), they presented their findings along with canine geneticist Swenson's recommendation -- what now is called THE MVD Breeding Protocol.

They told us then two other things: First, that the MVD Breeding Protocol was a compromise, because if they had their way, they would call for no breeding prior to age 5 years. Second, they said nothing less would work.

In Sweden, beginning in 2001, the kennel club and the CKCS club tried something less, and in Dr. Kvart's September 2010 report, he confirmed that it did not work. He told me that he has recommended that the two clubs there follow Swenson's advice, for a change. I do not know what success he has had in convincing those clubs to do so.

But, back to my main point here: Why should we expect these researchers to have to keep repeating the same advice again in 2011 just because 95% of the cavalier breeders -- and BOTH USA CAVALIER CLUBS -- have elected to blow them all off and ignore the MVD Breeding Protocol?

They told us nothing less would work. Nothing less has worked. Case closed!


IS THIS GOING TO BE ANOTHER ATTEMPT AT SPINNING THE MVD FIGURES IN CAVALIERS?


Could I mention that Professor Sir P.Bateson mentioned in his Report,Independant Inquiry into Dog Breeding ,page 26,the need for Statiscally Significant and Robust Prevalance Data ,to collect Prevalance Data from Veterinary Surgeries and Key Veterinary Hospitals.

That this is a Priority for Research ,for Robust Data on the Prevalance of Specific Conditions ,by Breed .

This looks what is being tackled now by the Information given from the Royal Veterinary College in collaberation with the University of Sydney,who are having a nation-Wide Survey of Small Animal Disease in the United Kingdom.

I think with this very exciting news , we are now going to learn the Extent of Health Problems in all Breeds of Dogs ,including our Cavalier Breed.

The Most up to date MVD Figures for MVD in Britain ,is from Simon Swift given at the 2009 AGM ,that 50% of Cavaliers have Heart Murmurs at 5-6 years of age.

Bet

Kate H
7th March 2011, 11:04 AM
What came across very clearly at the November Cavalier Health Day (and in various reports on the UK Club website) is the sheer frustration (verging on anger) of the researchers such as Simon Swift. Breeders are inflicting something on their Cavaliers which is totally unnecessary and could be bred out of the breed in a few generations. No, we can't directly control the pet breeders and puppy farmers who breed anything to anything (though the KC could refuse to register the puppies), but if every single member of all the UK clubs stuck faithfully to the protocols, that would be a great start. It can be done - 60 years ago, Irish Setter breeders eliminated night blindness from their breed by being ruthless about not breeding from affected dogs.

Kate, Oliver and Aled

Bet
7th March 2011, 11:18 AM
IS THIS GOING TO BE ANOTHER ATTEMPT AT SPINNING THE MVD FIGURES IN CAVALIERS?


Could I mention that Professor Sir P.Bateson mentioned in his Report,Independant Inquiry into Dog Breeding ,page 26,the need for Statiscally Significant and Robust Prevalance Data ,to collect Prevalance Data from Veterinary Surgeries and Key Veterinary Hospitals.

That this is a Priority for Research ,for Robust Data on the Prevalance of Specific Conditions ,by Breed .

This looks what is being tackled now by the Information given from the Royal Veterinary College in collaberation with the University of Sydney,who are having a nation-Wide Survey of Small Animal Disease in the United Kingdom.

I think with this very exciting news , we are now going to learn the Extent of Health Problems in all Breeds of Dogs ,including our Cavalier Breed.

The Most up to date MVD Figures for MVD in Britain ,is from Simon Swift given at the 2009 AGM ,that 50% of Cavaliers have Heart Murmurs at 5-6 years of age.

Bet


IS THIS GOING TO BE ANOTHER ATTEMPT AT SPINNING THE MVD FIGURES IN CAVALIERS?

Forgot to say in my Previous Post , that when the the MVD FIGURES in Cavaliers are given from this Survey ,and probably will be as Horrendous as we know them to be , we will be saying to the Prospective Buyers of Cavaliers, that when buying a Cavalier ,only buy from a Cavalier Breeder who Has Health Tested and followed the Breeding Guidelines of not Breeding from a Cavalier before 2.5 years ,has no Health Problems and know the Health Status of the parents at 5.

The Cavaliers are the only Toy Breed to have such an Early ON-Set of MVD , and this the MVD Rearchers say is the only way this Early On-Set of their MVD Problem can be Tackled.

Bet

Bet
8th March 2011, 12:37 PM
IS THIS GOING TO BE ANOTHER ATTEMPT AT SPINNING THE MVD FIGURES IN CAVALIERS?

Forgot to say in my Previous Post , that when the the MVD FIGURES in Cavaliers are given from this Survey ,and probably will be as Horrendous as we know them to be , we will be saying to the Prospective Buyers of Cavaliers, that when buying a Cavalier ,only buy from a Cavalier Breeder who Has Health Tested and followed the Breeding Guidelines of not Breeding from a Cavalier before 2.5 years ,has no Health Problems and know the Health Status of the parents at 5.

The Cavaliers are the only Toy Breed to have such an Early ON-Set of MVD , and this the MVD Rearchers say is the only way this Early On-Set of their MVD Problem can be Tackled.

Bet


IS THIS GOING TO BE ANOTHER ATTEMPT AT SPINNING THE MVD FIGURES IN CAVALIERS?

At least this Thread has shown how Seriously the MVD Researchers are recognizing the MVD Problem in our Cavalier Breed .

This has been noted at the MVD Seminars since 1997, that's 14 years ago, when the Breeding MVD Breeding Guidelies in America were issued ,and before that in 1987 when the UK CKCS CLUB issued the MVD Breeding Guidelines.

What Message are some of the Vociferious Cavalier Breeders trying to get across, That there is No Serious MVD Problem in Cavaliers, That it is Improving, That there is No Need to be following Breeding Guidelines for MVD and SM in our Cavalier Breed.

I wish they would get their Act To-gether and give us the Proof contrary to what the Researchers are telling us.

Where is the Evidence from those Cavaliers Breeders that 50% of Cavaliers do not have a Heart Murmur at 5-6 years ,what MVD Surveys have been carried by those certain Few Cavalier Breeders/

We have the Figures from the Researchers into both MVD and SM in Cavaliers ,so for a change let those Few Cavalier Breeders who are always Disputing the Researchers Figures produce their MVD and SM Figures ,if they can't then we will probably know that what they are claiming , the truth is, that they do not know.

Bet

Bet
8th March 2011, 07:35 PM
IS THIS GOING TO BE ANOTHER ATTEMPT AT SPINNING THE MVD FIGURES IN CAVALIERS?

At least this Thread has shown how Seriously the MVD Researchers are recognizing the MVD Problem in our Cavalier Breed .

This has been noted at the MVD Seminars since 1997, that's 14 years ago, when the Breeding MVD Breeding Guidelies in America were issued ,and before that in 1987 when the UK CKCS CLUB issued the MVD Breeding Guidelines.

What Message are some of the Vociferious Cavalier Breeders trying to get across, That there is No Serious MVD Problem in Cavaliers, That it is Improving, That there is No Need to be following Breeding Guidelines for MVD and SM in our Cavalier Breed.

I wish they would get their Act To-gether and give us the Proof contrary to what the Researchers are telling us.

Where is the Evidence from those Cavaliers Breeders that 50% of Cavaliers do not have a Heart Murmur at 5-6 years ,what MVD Surveys have been carried by those certain Few Cavalier Breeders/

We have the Figures from the Researchers into both MVD and SM in Cavaliers ,so for a change let those Few Cavalier Breeders who are always Disputing the Researchers Figures produce their MVD and SM Figures ,if they can't then we will probably know that what they are claiming , the truth is, that they do not know.

Bet


IS THIS GOING TO BE ANOTHER ATTEMPT AT SPINNING THE MVD FIGURES IN CAVALIERS?


Let us Challenge the UK CKCS CLUB to put a Survey on their WEB SITE, asking for details about the Figures we have had past and present of Cavaliers who have Died from MVD or SM, or are at present Suffering from either of those Two Conditions.

This question could be being asked at the CKCS CLUB'S Health Stall at Crufts.

There will be Information from the Kennel Club about what the KC is doing for the Health Problems in Dog Breeds also at Crufts, perhaps this question could also be being asked, and if the BVA/KC CKCS MRI Scanning Scheme will be going ahead shortly.

Bet

Dodo bird
15th March 2011, 07:25 AM
Some thoughts in reply:

For the stats that Bet gave from UK CKCS club health days - are there charts showing the ages of the dogs tested and the number of clear/murmur for each age? I'm actually just as interested in ages 2, 3 and 4 results as age 5 because to me those are the "early onset" ages where life expectancy drops to the way-too-early demise at ages before 9 years old. I have heard some discussion in the US that the stats of this age group (1-4) have improved. I'd be really pleased to know that this is true since that would be a step in the right direction.


You can find links to the results of the heart tests here. (http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/health/hearts/heartmenu.html)

Bet
27th March 2011, 01:32 PM
Thank you for that Pat, you are amazingly knowledgeable.




Wouldn't that be wonderful.

I think( hope )that the best figures we are ever likely to get are going to come through something like this scheme, which will automatically take information from veterinary practice software.......... http://www.rvc.ac.uk/VEctAR/

Isn't technology marvellous?


IS THIS GOING TO BE ANOTHER ATTEMPT AT SPINNING THE MVD FIGURES IN CAVALIERS?


Could I mention that on another Cavalier Forum a Cavalier Owner is going to be having a Cavalier World Population Survey on Hearts and SM in Cavaliers.

Here in Britain this is going to be done Professionally by the Royal Veterinary College in Collaboration with the University of Sydney ,who are undertaking a Nationwide Survey of Small Animal Disease .

This will be to investigate the Range and Frequency of Small Animals Health Problems seen by Veterinary Surgeons working in General Practice in the United Kingdom and Highlight Major Risk Factors for those Conditions.

I would think that this type of Survey will give more Reliable Figures of the SM and MVD Cavalier Problems because those Problems must come into the RVC Survey.

Bet

Bet
27th March 2011, 07:27 PM
IS THIS GOING TO BE ANOTHER ATTEMPT AT SPINNING THE MVD FIGURES IN CAVALIERS?


Could I mention that on another Cavalier Forum a Cavalier Owner is going to be having a Cavalier World Population Survey on Hearts and SM in Cavaliers.

Here in Britain this is going to be done Professionally by the Royal Veterinary College in Collaboration with the University of Sydney ,who are undertaking a Nationwide Survey of Small Animal Disease .

This will be to investigate the Range and Frequency of Small Animals Health Problems seen by Veterinary Surgeons working in General Practice in the United Kingdom and Highlight Major Risk Factors for those Conditions.

I would think that this type of Survey will give more Reliable Figures of the SM and MVD Cavalier Problems because those Problems must come into the RVC Survey.

Bet


IS THIS GOING TO BE ANOTHER ATTEMPT AT SPINNING THE MVD FIGURES IN CAVALIERS?


I have just read the WEB SITE of the Cavalier Breeder who is carrying out the CKCS WORLD POPULATION SURVEY FOR 2011.

He seems to be doubting the High Percentages of the Figures given by the Researchers into the SM and MVD in our Cavalier Breed.

He want's to get rid of those Rumours and to obtain the the Right Figures.

How will this Survey here in Britain be better than the Survey to be carried by the Royal Veterinary College,since in his last Survey in 2007 there were only 1,100 Cavaliers from 20 other Countries World.

The RVC Survey is involving the Data from the Veterinary Profession ,at the moment there could be around 100,000 Cavaliers living at 10 years of age, which I think will give the the RVC 's Health Survey Realistic Figures about how many Cavaliers with SM the Researchers have seen and the Cardiologists have seen with Cavaliers with MVD.

Bet

Davecav
27th March 2011, 08:07 PM
This survey gives everyone who has had MRI tested their dogs, and had either dopler tests done (Europe) or cardiologist tests done, to enter their results. This is world wide.

We need as much information as possible about the health of cavaliers. This survey has been initiated by the Dutch because the extreme animal rights organisations in that country are trying (and may very well succeed) to get the Cavalier banned in that country. I hope no-one here wants that to happen, as it could have repercussions here and elsewhere.

Bet you might not agree with this person's thoughts on the % of affected cavaliers within the population, but he has as much right to an opinion and you, or me, or anyone else. At least he is trying to get some figures together. It might not turn out to be very good news, but if as many people contribute as possible, it will be a fair indication don't you think?

What he is trying to do is get as many people involved who have had their dogs tested.

As I have said, the more information that can be collated, whether its by the RVC or this survey, or any other, it can help get a handle on these problems once and for all.

Please don't knock it. There are lots of people on this Forum that can contribute to help give a clearer picture..

Bet
28th March 2011, 11:09 AM
This survey gives everyone who has had MRI tested their dogs, and had either dopler tests done (Europe) or cardiologist tests done, to enter their results. This is world wide.

We need as much information as possible about the health of cavaliers. This survey has been initiated by the Dutch because the extreme animal rights organisations in that country are trying (and may very well succeed) to get the Cavalier banned in that country. I hope no-one here wants that to happen, as it could have repercussions here and elsewhere.

Bet you might not agree with this person's thoughts on the % of affected cavaliers within the population, but he has as much right to an opinion and you, or me, or anyone else. At least he is trying to get some figures together. It might not turn out to be very good news, but if as many people contribute as possible, it will be a fair indication don't you think?

What he is trying to do is get as many people involved who have had their dogs tested.

As I have said, the more information that can be collated, whether its by the RVC or this survey, or any other, it can help get a handle on these problems once and for all.

Please don't knock it. There are lots of people on this Forum that can contribute to help give a clearer picture..


IS THIS GOING TO BE ANOTHER ATTEMPT AT SPINNING THE MVD FIGURES IN CAVALIERS?


Davecav ,

I think here in Britain there are already Figures for SM in Cavaliers , around 800 plus and for CM aprox 90%, and 50% with Heart Murmurs at 5-6 years of age.

There have been about 10,000 Cavaliers Registered yearly by the Kennel Club ,not for the Past 2 years though since the Figure has now dropped to around 8,000.

Take the 10.000 figure ,and the Cavaliers' age that they live to is approx 10.

So that will probably mean there are about 100,000 Cavaliers living in Britain to-day.

50% of them having Murmurs at 5-6 years of age ,is approx 50,000 having Murmurs at 5-6 years of age.

Is Norma Inglis involved with this Survey for Britain as she was in the Previous 2007 Health Survey ?

Bet