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Bet
17th March 2011, 10:53 AM
With the mention of the KENNEL CLUB'S forth -coming MATE SELECT ,on the CKCS CLUB , USA INC , is a List of some Cavaliers' IN- BRED CO -EFFICIENTS.

For any-one interested here are a few from the List.

I will just give the Cavalier Champions.

CH ABELARD of TTIWEH 22%

CH ALANSMERE MICHELLE 27%

Ch ALANSMERE SANDMARTIN 24%

Ch ALBERTO OF KINDRUM 21%

Ch CHANTIZ THYME 21%

CH CHARLOTTETOWN MacKINTOSH 22%

Ch CINOLA SUPER TRAMP OF DEERIEM 21%

Ch CRAIGOWL CASHMERE 25%

Ch CRAIGOWL HOPSCOTCH OF HOMERBRENT 23%

Ch CRAIGOWL STORM OF HOMERBRENT 23%

Ch HEIDI OF HOMERBRENT 25%

Ch HOMARANNE ANDY CAPP 24%

Ch HOMARANNE CAPTION 23%

Ch MERRYLAINE MADE TO MEASURE FOR SYMRA 22%.

Ch MILKEYN MASCOT 31%

Ch MILKEYN MATCHMAKER 31%

Ch ROSEMULLION OF OTTERMOUTH 20%

Ch TELVARA TOP HAT 25%

Bet

Bet
18th March 2011, 10:55 AM
With the mention of the KENNEL CLUB'S forth -coming MATE SELECT ,on the CKCS CLUB , USA INC , is a List of some Cavaliers' IN- BRED CO -EFFICIENTS.

For any-one interested here are a few from the List.

I will just give the Cavalier Champions.

CH ABELARD of TTIWEH 22%

CH ALANSMERE MICHELLE 27%

Ch ALANSMERE SANDMARTIN 24%

Ch ALBERTO OF KINDRUM 21%

Ch CHANTIZ THYME 21%

CH CHARLOTTETOWN MacKINTOSH 22%

Ch CINOLA SUPER TRAMP OF DEERIEM 21%

Ch CRAIGOWL CASHMERE 25%

Ch CRAIGOWL HOPSCOTCH OF HOMERBRENT 23%

Ch CRAIGOWL STORM OF HOMERBRENT 23%

Ch HEIDI OF HOMERBRENT 25%

Ch HOMARANNE ANDY CAPP 24%

Ch HOMARANNE CAPTION 23%

Ch MERRYLAINE MADE TO MEASURE FOR SYMRA 22%.

Ch MILKEYN MASCOT 31%

Ch MILKEYN MATCHMAKER 31%

Ch ROSEMULLION OF OTTERMOUTH 20%

Ch TELVARA TOP HAT 25%

Bet


SOME CAVALIER IN- BRED CO-EFFICENTS


If I could add to my previous Post on this subject.

Over the years I have collected a List of Long Lived Cavaliers, in-fact the List of around 2,000 Names of Cavaliers with ages of 12 years and over along with the names and ages of their Sires and Dams is held in the Kennel Club Library.

I did'nt mention the ages of the IN-Bred CO-EFFICIENTS of some of those Cavaliers from my List that I gave yesterday was for a particular reason .

Even although they had lived to a good age and had quite High COI's for our Cavalier Breed , average being only 5.4 %,that it is no reason to think that it makes no difference that a Cavalier can have a High COI and be safely IN-Bred.

This can only be Proved if the COI's of Cavaliers are taken into account and the difference between the COI's of Cavaliers who have lived to a Good Age are compared to the COI's of those Cavaliers who have had Health Problems.

This is why the MATE SELECT and the EBV SCheme is so important both for Cavalier Breeders and Buyers of Cavaliers.

A Complete Picture will be made avaliable as to the Health of the Cavalier .

Bet

merello
18th March 2011, 10:57 AM
Could anyone explain what in bred co-efficient means? ( Sorry for appearing a bit ignorant!) :-)

Kate H
18th March 2011, 01:39 PM
A common way of breeding any dog is what's called line breeding - using dogs who share a notable common ancestor, who may appear in many different generations of the joint pedigrees. For example, the same dog may appear as a grandfather, a g-grandfather once on both sides, a g-g-grandfather 4 or 5 times. This is quite common with Cavaliers, who have a fairly limited gene pool (choice of different dogs to breed from, especially in the early days of the breed). Line breeding can work fairly well if it isn't too close (when it become inbreeding) - IF the dog you are doubling up on is healthy. But if the dog you are line breeding to carries, for example, the gene for early onset heart disease, then that gene is getting replicated through each generation - which is partly why it is such a problem in Cavaliers.

So the percentages that Bet quotes represent the number of times a particular dog appears in Cavalier pedigrees. 20% means that going back a long way, one-fifth of a Cavalier's ancestors are the same dog (who may appear only a few times in each generation, but cumulatively his or her genes have a huge influence). So if you want to line-breed, it is safer to line-breed to a dog who appears less frequently in every Cavalier's pedigree (and has a lower percentage score), rather than to the very popular stud dog that everybody used (unless of course you know that he was completely healthy!). And not to inbreed at all - for example, mating half-brother and sister, so that there is a concentration of the same ancestors in the close generations.

Hope I've managed to be clear!

Kate, Oliver and Aled

merello
18th March 2011, 01:57 PM
Kate, thank you for explaining. I enjoy this forum as it's always informative on all things Cavalier.

Sonny was a rescue from the SSPCA shelter and Kaley was rehomed to me from TLDR so I've no knowledge of breeding and don't share the same knowledge as a lot of the members on here. I felt a bit of an idiot asking so thanks for clearing that up.

Margaret C
18th March 2011, 02:34 PM
Tania and I went to Crufts last Sunday, mainly to look at the stalls to see what was selling well and get some ideas for the CavalierMatters stall.

I hired a mobility scooter so did the window shopping in style. I resisted road rage temptation even when we saw certain KC members.

We were shown the new Mate Select programme by Nick Blayney, who is a Past President of the BVA. This project is the Kennel Club's great white hope for the future of pedigree dog breeding.
The KC intention is that breeders and buyers will be able to use this programme to get health & inbreeding information when considering a possible mating or getting details about puppies for sale.

We had a fairly wide ranging discussion during which Mr Blayney rather reluctantly conceded that the PDE film had been a considerable force for change, and that prior to 2008 the veterinary profession had stood by and failed to act despite the obvious health problems in pure bred dogs.

I had a real surprise when I put in the names of Faith, the cavalier that lives with my daughter, & the dog she has just been mated to.

This mating would be considered as an outcross in cavalier breeding circles and so I expected the COI of the potential puppies would be better than the breed average, especially as I was told that Select Mate would only use 3 generations for the calculations.
To my dismay the COI of this mating was something like 6.6 (worse than a first cousin to first cousin mating ) whereas the breed average was said to be 5.4
I had been sure this mating must have a much better COI than average.

Nick Blayney explained that that a lot of the same ancestors in the background could have the same effect as one ancestor in common in the last couple of generations and I have realised that I was only comparing this mating with very linebred show breeder matings, which on the whole would have very high COI indeed.

The relatively low breed average COI will be thanks to the 80% of non-breed-club people who register their litters with the KC but do not line breed.
A lot of fresh genes there if only we could identify those relatively unaffected with SM & MVD.

Faith's eye test results did not show up on Mate Select, although they are on the KC website and in the BRS. This has apparently happened to others and is something they will have to sort out before it goes live ( The KC is saying this will be in few weeks but Mr Blayney felt it would be a good few months )

Nick Blayney mentioned bringing new genetic material into the Cavalier gene pool by outcrossing to another breed.
I said I thought it may be a good idea if it gave us a healthier dog, but I was sure most breeders would be very opposed and there was no way the KC would agree. To my surprise he said it was already being discussed within the KC.

As I have already said on another post we visited the health scheme stall & were told that the BVA was in favour of publication of the MRI scheme results and they were still accepting views sent in by breeders and pet people up until May.

Kate H
18th March 2011, 02:36 PM
Actually, having looked again at Bet's list, I'm not sure I got the percentage right! I think it is probably the percentage of all Cavaliers who have these dogs in their pedigree - in other words, 20% means that one-fifth of all Cavaliers have this dog in their pedigree, so there is a good chance that a great number of matings will double up on this dog (and its genes and problems). Whichever way you interpret the percentages (and someone will no doubt correct me!), they are a useful guide for breeders who want to keep the gene pool as wide as possible, which is so important with both MVD and SM being genetic in origin.

Hope you are not now hopelessly confused! I'm not a breeder either, just someone who has always been interested in dogs in general and Cavaliers in particular.

Kate, Oliver and Aled

tuppenlil
18th March 2011, 09:19 PM
Nick Blayney mentioned bringing new genetic material into the Cavalier gene pool by outcrossing to another breed.
I said I thought it may be a good idea if it gave us a healthier dog, but I was sure most breeders would be very opposed and there was no way the KC would agree. To my surprise he said it was already being discussed within the KC..

As I have already said on another post we visited the health scheme stall & were told that the BVA was in favour of publication of the MRI scheme results and they were still accepting views sent in by breeders and pet people up until May


Margaret
I find it quite interesting that the KC are now discussing outcrossing, because at a recent seminar Jeff Samson was saying that although CKCS could be the first breed to have to outcross, we hadn't reached that point yet, I wonder if some more information has come to light, or whether there is just despair that the breed can sort it's own problems out ?

Good news that the BVA are in favour of publication of the BVA/KC CM/SM scheme. Lets hope many breeders and pet owners continue to send their views in to the KC and the BVA.
It doesn't look as though most of the Clubs are going to use the period of consultation given by the KC and BVA to consult with their members, either to explain the BVA/KC CM/SM scheme or give each member an opportunity to give their views. Pity, as many of the Clubs' members are pet owners and would surely vote for publication of results.

Maggie Ford

Pat
18th March 2011, 10:54 PM
Someone help me remember, please - it seems to me that there was a pedigree website that showed COI figures on the pedigrees. I remember looking at the pedigree for a litter sister of my Capers and Caprice and I seem to recall a pretty low figure. (They were an outcross from the Kilspindie kennel outcrossed to a Homerbrent bitch.) But now I can't find any COI info on any pedigree website.

Pat

sins
18th March 2011, 11:13 PM
Perhaps it was the A.E.N.A. database?
Not sure how accurate or precise the COIs are though.
Sins

Oreo
19th March 2011, 07:23 PM
Pat, on the AENA pedigree database is a Kilspindie female that I believe is littermate to your Caprice. The COI is 3.22% - and that database does COI to 8 generations if the pedigree is complete to that.

In regards to the original post, there is a very informative link that describes inbreeding coefficients and what they are about, along with ancestor loss coefficients and relationship (of sire to dam) coefficients, at the following link: - http://www.czerwonytrop.com/inb/index.php?full=ok&lng=en

I believe the EBV program ties these up, along with other considerations, in a neat package.

Oreo

Pat
19th March 2011, 07:42 PM
Thanks - can someone give a link to the AENA database? Must one be a member to view pedigrees? (Some of the sites require a password.)

I know that one of the seven littermates of my Capers and Caprice is on most of the pedigree databases - date of birth of this litter is April 2, 1990 and litter registration number is L-2820. Liz did heavy line-breeding, but this litter was an outcross - dam was Homerbrent Lace Cap and sire was Kilspindie Morocco. And Rocco was also an outcross - sire was Kilspindie Mockingbird and dam was Sukev Casablanca of Saintbrides & Kilspindie.

Although Tracy and Rocco were not what I consider long-living - there were some long-lived dogs in the pedigree. Cassie lived to 15, Songbird to 15, etc.

Capers lived to 16 1/2 and Caprice to 16. I've always believed that those two out-crosses were a favorable factor.

Pat

Oreo
19th March 2011, 10:14 PM
The link to the AENA database is http://dhvg.ckcs-kcs.dyndns.org/search_EN.html

The link to the pedigree of Caprice's littermate is http://dhvg.ckcs-kcs.dyndns.org/cgi-bin/geneal_EN.pl?op=tree&index=Q8x7h034&gens=5&db=CKCS.dbw

You do have to sign up and have a password for the pedigree link to work.

I hope that helps.

Oreo

Bet
20th March 2011, 12:35 PM
Margaret
I find it quite interesting that the KC are now discussing outcrossing, because at a recent seminar Jeff Samson was saying that although CKCS could be the first breed to have to outcross, we hadn't reached that point yet, I wonder if some more information has come to light, or whether there is just despair that the breed can sort it's own problems out ?

Good news that the BVA are in favour of publication of the BVA/KC CM/SM scheme. Lets hope many breeders and pet owners continue to send their views in to the KC and the BVA.
It doesn't look as though most of the Clubs are going to use the period of consultation given by the KC and BVA to consult with their members, either to explain the BVA/KC CM/SM scheme or give each member an opportunity to give their views. Pity, as many of the Clubs' members are pet owners and would surely vote for publication of results.

Maggie Ford


Could I thank both Maggie and Margaret for their Posts, what I wonder is when the CM/SM Scheme Results are Published, what will the Results be for those Cavaliers Bred in Puppy Farms be.

I hate the idea of Puppy Farms ,but.........if it's the Show Bred Cavaliers who have the mostly High IN-Bred COI's then has the Bullet to be Biten and some Cavaliers from Puppy Farms be being introduced to widen the Cavalier Gene Pool.

If the Cavalier Breed has to be Salvaged ,this could be Food for Thought.

It has been quoted that the average COI's for Cavaliers Registered with Kennel Club is 5.4 %, but remember, as the Cavalier Breeders have insisted ,only 20% of those Cavaliers Registered are from CKCS CLUB MEMBERS, so is it the 80% of Cavaliers from Puppy Farms and BYB'S that may have lower COI's that have made the 5.4 % COI's possible as the average for COI's in the Cavalier Breed

Bet

Karlin
20th March 2011, 03:01 PM
I also have a section in the Library on COIs with some easy to understand background:

http://www.cavaliertalk.com/forums/showthread.php?8897-Understanding-breeding-coefficients

tuppenlil
20th March 2011, 08:28 PM
I hate the idea of Puppy Farms ,but.........if it's the Show Bred Cavaliers who have the mostly High IN-Bred COI's then has the Bullet to be Biten and some Cavaliers from Puppy Farms be being introduced to widen the Cavalier Gene Pool.

If the Cavalier Breed has to be Salvaged ,this could be Food for Thought.

It has been quoted that the average COI's for Cavaliers Registered with Kennel Club is 5.4 %, but remember, as the Cavalier Breeders have insisted ,only 20% of those Cavaliers Registered are from CKCS CLUB MEMBERS, so is it the 80% of Cavaliers from Puppy Farms and BYB'S that may have lower COI's that have made the 5.4 % COI's possible as the average for COI's in the Cavalier Breed

Bet

Bet
When the figures of 20% club members versus 80% puppy farmers are quoted we might be doing some people who choose not to belong to Cavalier Clubs a big disservice. They might be very caring owners, very health conscious and very much wanting to do what is best for the breed. When I was health rep. I had many enquiries asking how people could do their best to breed healthy puppies. Many people have left the Clubs because of the politics, many never were interested in showing and never joined, some just want to breed the odd litter because they love having puppies around. It doesn't necessarily mean they don't care and we musn't lump them all together with "puppy farmers" who really don't care.

But some do want to do their best for the breed, but unless they were in the system to get Club heart forms, know where the health clinics were, etc. know how to get their eyes tested etc.they could not easily health test their dog, or even know what should be done.

The introduction of KC Accredited Breeder, the BVA CMSM and Heart schemes, Mate Select and the EBV will also help all those breeders. Then potential buyers will be able to identify testing breeders whether they be in or out of the Clubs.

And most interestingly, when the results are published from the health schemes, we should be able to identify many unknown dogs with good scans and good hearts that we can use to prevent us potentially having to outcross to another breed.

Maggie

Kate H
20th March 2011, 09:14 PM
Bet wrote: could some Cavaliers from Puppy Farms be being introduced to widen the Cavalier Gene Pool.

But Cavaliers from puppy farms still come from the same gene pool. There isn't some parallel gene pool being used by puppy farmers, they all go back to the original small number of dogs. And most puppy farms use the same stud dogs (their own) over and over again, so reducing the gene pool further. And if they don't have genuine pedigrees, no-one will know if the dogs they produce would widen the gene pool or not.

And if my very pretty ex-puppy farm Aled is anything to go by, somewhere along the line some well-bred Cavaliers have got into the wrong hands. Not everyone breeding what you might call 'mainstream' Cavaliers is as stringent as they should be at vetting homes, and dogs can get sold to the first comer if an owner dies or has to go into care. One of the reasons Many Tears neuters all its rescues is to prevent them getting back into puppy farmers' hands in spite of the care MT take over home checks. So you will still come back to the same gene pool.

It's the way the Cavalier breed developed that makes the gene pool question so difficult.

Kate, Oliver and Aled

Davecav
21st March 2011, 01:02 AM
The other thing with puppy farms is it's so easy to make up pedigrees in this day and age from the internet, especially if the pups being sold aren't KC registered. I, or you, or anyone could go onto a website and devise a pedigree for your puppies as a puppy farmer or a byb. The people who buy those pups will be impressed!:yikes The ones that give a wide berth are the ones that have done their homework. and how many are they? sad but true :bang:

Bet
21st March 2011, 12:18 PM
The other thing with puppy farms is it's so easy to make up pedigrees in this day and age from the internet, especially if the pups being sold aren't KC registered. I, or you, or anyone could go onto a website and devise a pedigree for your puppies as a puppy farmer or a byb. The people who buy those pups will be impressed!:yikes The ones that give a wide berth are the ones that have done their homework. and how many are they? sad but true :bang:


SOME CAVALIER IN-BRED CO-EFFICIENTS

Let me put another thought to my Post , OK , the COI's from Puppy farms wont work, but what if ,say about 30 Cavaliers were bought from Puppy Farms and BYB's , Health Tested for SM and MVD, and had no problems from those Conditions , then let them be being used to try and get the Cavalier Breed out of the Mess it's in at the moment because of those Two Conditions.

The Researchers have given the Figure of around 90% of Cavaliers have CM , this is Chacterised by the Brain being too Big for the Skull ,the Cerebro Spinal Fluid I believe can't get round the Brain properly, this can involve Syrinxes being formed.

We also have been told by the Researchers ,that 50% of Cavaliers have Heart Murmurs at 5-6 years of age, and that there are many Cavaliers to-day who can be Carriers of the MVD Genes.

So would the idea of using some Cavaliers from Puppy Farms and BYB's who had no sign of MVD and SM not work, why would'nt it .surely it's worth a try to give our Cavaliers a Future.

Let the CKCS CLUB who have a lot of Funds , buy those Cavaliers to give this a try .

Bet

Margaret C
21st March 2011, 06:54 PM
But Cavaliers from puppy farms still come from the same gene pool. There isn't some parallel gene pool being used by puppy farmers, they all go back to the original small number of dogs. And most puppy farms use the same stud dogs (their own) over and
Kate, Oliver and Aled


There has to be an explanation why the cavalier COI mean value is only 5.4
There has to be a lot of genetic diversity somewhere other than in show bred dogs if my bitch, with no ancestor doubled up in three generations, mated to a dog with the same lack of doubling in his three generations, would have puppies with a greater COI than the mean average.

If it is because of the shared ancestors way back in the pedigree, then there must be a lot of cavaliers that don't share that same show dog ancestory to any great extent.

Cavaliers go back to the same few dogs but from the figures that can be seen in the Breed Record Supplement the very linebred ( inbred ) show dogs are a small subsection.
There will be other subsections within the other 80% and their collection of genes will been bred into them for a different reason than just to be pretty enough to win at shows.
It may have been they were keen stud dogs or fertile bitches that whelped well and had big litters, or just that they were hardy enough to survive puppy farm conditions into adulthood

My frustration, and I should imagine that Maggie as another ex-Cavalier Club Representative may feel the same, is that there is so much that could be set in motion now to limit the damage being done to the breed.

Because so many cannot look outside the box and consider using unknown cavalier lines or outcrossing to another breed I would think as a priority there should be:-

Scanning and identification of older Grade A stud dogs and a project to store their semen for future use.
Cooperation with overseas owners to identify and import semen from significant Grade A dogs for storage and future use.

If there was a real will to save the breed, without the usual proviso that the look and the temperament must not be changed in any way, then serious thought could be given to identifying 'puppy farm' dogs and bitches that could be bought into breeding programmes, or the Club could ask the advice of the geneticists, who really know just what needs to be done, to consider a project of carefully controlled outcrossing to another breed.

A couple of my own thoughts here...... When people say that they don't agree with outcrossing to another breed, or looking at using dogs with unknown pedigree lines because they don't want to lose the look and the temperament of cavaliers, are they actually saying they would prefer SM to continue to affect the breed than for those two characteristics to change?

It is the dogs that suffer. If they could have a voice would they agree with these lovers of the breed?

Re looks: We all adored our cavaliers in the 60s, 70s , 80s, 90s and 2000s even if they were not as big eyed, short nosed, cushioned faced, perfectly marked, long backed and short legged etc. as the fashionable cavalier in the show ring today.

Re: Temperament. It is being recognised that SM dogs can often have uncertain temperaments because they fear being touched. They have been known to attack other dogs and sometimes even family members. If SM affected cavaliers continue to be added to the gene pool because Club breeders cannot self-regulate, then we may be on our way to losing the sweet cavalier temperament anyway?

Margaret C
21st March 2011, 07:10 PM
Bet
When the figures of 20% club members versus 80% puppy farmers are quoted we might be doing some people who choose not to belong to Cavalier Clubs a big disservice. They might be very caring owners, very health conscious and very much wanting to do what is best for the breed. When I was health rep. I had many enquiries asking how people could do their best to breed healthy puppies. Many people have left the Clubs because of the politics, many never were interested in showing and never joined, some just want to breed the odd litter because they love having puppies around. It doesn't necessarily mean they don't care and we musn't lump them all together with "puppy farmers" who really don't care.
Maggie

Hello Maggie,

Welcome to CavalierTalk. I am looking forward to some interesting discussions with you.

What you say is true. I certainly have friends that love having cavalier puppies. They do all the health testing but are not interested in showing and just want to produce healthy pets.

A couple of them have cavalier with well known puppy farm affixes, but they look like cavaliers, they act like cavaliers, and in one case there is no SM in a bitch scanned through Ruperts Fund.

Maggie[/QUOTE]

anniemac
21st March 2011, 07:11 PM
I can see why some may be not for outcrossing with another breed or have that opinion. I don't understand if a cavalier is tested clear or of good "health" genes, why would it matter where it came from? Those cavaliers just might be the saving grace or true gems.

Help me understand that please

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

anniemac
21st March 2011, 07:14 PM
Thinking more, wouldn't pedigree be beneficial to know health or genetic past? Maybe just if we had health of parents (hearts) and the actual test of one being bred be enough?

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Bet
21st March 2011, 07:57 PM
Hello Maggie,

Welcome to CavalierTalk. I am looking forward to some interesting discussions with you.

What you say is true. I certainly have friends that love having cavalier puppies. They do all the health testing but are not interested in showing and just want to produce healthy pets.

A couple of them have cavalier with well known puppy farm affixes, but they look like cavaliers, they act like cavaliers, and in one case there is no SM in a bitch scanned through Ruperts Fund.

Maggie[/QUOTE]


SOME CAVALIER IN-BRED CO-EFFICIENTS


I think and most Lovers of the Cavalier Breed will have to agree that the Cavalier Breed is now at the Cross Roads of it's Future,

Has the choice to be Out-Crossing to another Breed or Buying Cavaliers from Puppy Farms and BYB's ,and be used for for Cavalier Breeding Programs, making sure that they have no SM and MVD , since those are the Two Diseases which are going to put an end to our Cavaliers.

Can the Fashionable Cavaliers of to-day ,as Margaret has said having Big Eyes, Short Noses ,Cushioned Faces ,Long Backs and Short Legs, have what is needed to save the Breed.

I don't know the answer ,all I know is that drastic measures now have got to be being taken.

Maybe it will be Cavalier Puppy Farm Cavaliers who are going to save the Breed.

OK the Breeders on the Show Scene Circuit will be having the Vapours at this thought, but is it not about time that the Health of our Cavaliers came first and not what the type will be that's going to Win at the Cavalier Shows.

Bet

tuppenlil
21st March 2011, 09:26 PM
Re looks: We all adored our cavaliers in the 60s, 70s , 80s, 90s and 2000s even if they were not as big eyed, short nosed, cushioned faced, perfectly marked, long backed and short legged etc. as the fashionable cavalier in the show ring today.

Re: Temperament. It is being recognised that SM dogs can often have uncertain temperaments because they fear being touched. They have been known to attack other dogs and sometimes even family members. If SM affected cavaliers continue to be added to the gene pool because Club breeders cannot self-regulate, then we may be on our way to losing the sweet cavalier temperament anyway?

Margaret

Thats very true about the temperament, several people have had rather unpleasant experiences with temperament issues. Also some dogs seem to be 'off the ceiling' with excitement and some are too nervous and backing off any physical contact. So maybe we are already starting to lose that gentle sweet temperament unique to the Cavalier ?? That would be really tragic.

Any look at a human Chiari support website would tell you how ghastly it must be if you have to live with a constant headache!


Maggie

Karlin
21st March 2011, 10:53 PM
80% of the puppy registrations may be by non-club breeders, but it is really important to understand that of those 80%, all are not puppy farmers -- I doubt that even most are. A lot of them no doubt are people that some club breeders sold their puppies to on open registrations, who can breed away as they wish on a fairly casual basis without much knowledge of what they are doing or consideration for the kinds of dogs they are mating. Some portion will be puppy farmers. A lot will be people who breed for a pet market that cannot be satisfied alone by the numbers of puppies bred by club breeders, much less the subset of health testing club breeders.

Like others here, I also have come across people who left the show world because they felt there was not enough emphasis on breeding for health but decided that it was worth trying to produce puppies that have been bred using the protocols and existing health tests. One such that I know of has nearly a dozen A grade dogs that have been scanned under the formal scanning protocol. Some of these will not have pedigrees that immediately go back to show dogs–and have remained isolated from that whole scene, as well as popular sires–and perhaps that is why this breeder is having such an extraordinary number of excellent grades. She only breeds A dogs that also have clear hearts, as tested annually by a cardiologist.

All the dogs are registered, but she is not in the breed club. She has just made a commitment to breeding for health, supporting research and producing health focused puppies for pet homes.

I think those are the kinds of dogs and breeders that should be brought back into some kind of international breeding program to try to eradicate the serious health issues in this breed.

I am not all that sure about puppy farmed dogs being sturdier because they are able to survive poor conditions. If you look at some of the dogs that come out of puppy farms and are handed into rescues in Wales and in Ireland, a lot of them have serious health issues but most have been bred already. I just think the dogs in this gentle breed tolerate whatever situation they are put into and as they are never tested or closely watched by anybody who loves them, the health issues just are not noticed. Amongst those, I would include Suzy, the ex-puppy farm dog now living with an elderly neighbor of mine, who had a grade 5 heart murmur at age 6 and was being handed over because the puppy farmer had bred as many litters from her (7) as he could and still get IKC registration and a male stud dog who went to Mattiesmum on the board here from me, and had a grade 5 murmur at only about age 5 or six (the owner told me he could still be used to sire litters if I wanted :sl*p:). Lots come out with serious untreated eye problems and advanced heart murmurs.

anniemac
21st March 2011, 11:30 PM
Margaret,

They can store semen? Are they doing that?

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Margaret C
22nd March 2011, 12:40 AM
Margaret,

They can store semen? Are they doing that?

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Yes, it can be frozen and used decades later.

At very least the Cavalier Club should be encouraging breeders to MRI their older dogs and then using some of the health money that is lying unused in the bank ( a very bad habit in many clubs ) to pay for the storage of semen from Grade A dogs.

Margaret C
22nd March 2011, 01:11 AM
I frankly despair when I read that a Cavalier Health Liaison Council Member has asked why would pet owners want to see a list of MRI scanned dogs?
Perhaps because they have been told they should do some homework before they buy?

I would think that a better question is why would a breeder not want such a list provided?

There is nothing that can tell a pet owner that Mrs A is a breeder that should be trusted or that Mr B is a plausible conman. I know a few breeders that could make a secondhand car salesman look like a beginner when it comes to smooth talking.

There is one remark repeated yet again that always puzzles me............ "a scan shows only the status of the dog on one particular day"
Isn't that the same for any test for any condition, including smear tests and mammograms in women? Does that mean those tests should also be dismissed?

The usual breeder concerns about the potential effects of discarding D dogs from the gene pool are voiced.
The fact that the popular sire syndrome is a very important cause of genetic loss never seems to be recognised.

The guidelines ensure that there is a place for D dogs that genuinely have other good health genes to offer, but they should always have a grade A mate.
Such a breeding does bring a greater risk of SM affected offspring than using two grade A parents.

There is to me a very telling sentence when this CHLC member writes that hundreds of dogs have been scanned in the last two or three years as breeders have slowly realized that they really do have a problem.
It sounds good, but to put it in context Club members received a leaflet eight years ago saying that SM was a rapidly spreading problem.

It was already known that the top stud dogs were producing offspring with SM, so it did not take a lot of knowledge to realise those SM genes would be spreading through the gene pool?

Six years to slowly realize they really do have a problem?

How much longer before breed club health representatives stop wasting time planning how they can prevent the full extent of the health problems being revealed and we see the CHLC take some real action to address the problems of SM and MVD?

Kate H
22nd March 2011, 11:29 AM
Margaret wrote: they were not as big eyed, short nosed, cushioned faced, perfectly marked, long backed and short legged etc. as the fashionable cavalier in the show ring today.

I've been having an interesting exchange of emails with a top breeder who took exception to a remark I made in an earlier post about breeders following fashions, especially in heads, and who assures me that there aren't fashions in Cavaliers and no respectable Cavalier breeder would follow fashion if it existed.

Karlin wrote: I am not all that sure about puppy farmed dogs being sturdier because they are able to survive poor conditions.

Aled came out of his Welsh puppy farm at 18 months with rotten teeth, appalling ear mites and a grade 2 heart murmur which quickly went up to a Grade 3 - and he was only 18 months, many ex-puppy farm dogs are older breeding bitches with dreadful health. He's now 4 years old and his murmur has stayed at 3 - I hope because he has lost weight, is very fit and on a very strict diet, but it's still way too high for a dog of his age. He wasn't vaccinated either until he came into rescue - I hate to think what could have happened if he had come to the parvo hotspot that is Coventry as an unvaccinated puppy, which he could have done if someone had bought him direct from the puppy farm and the breeder had lied about vaccination.

Kate, Oliver and Aled

Bet
22nd March 2011, 11:46 AM
I frankly despair when I read that a Cavalier Health Liaison Council Member has asked why would pet owners want to see a list of MRI scanned dogs?
Perhaps because they have been told they should do some homework before they buy?

I would think that a better question is why would a breeder not want such a list provided?

There is nothing that can tell a pet owner that Mrs A is a breeder that should be trusted or that Mr B is a plausible conman. I know a few breeders that could make a secondhand car salesman look like a beginner when it comes to smooth talking.

There is one remark repeated yet again that always puzzles me............ "a scan shows only the status of the dog on one particular day"
Isn't that the same for any test for any condition, including smear tests and mammograms in women? Does that mean those tests should also be dismissed?

The usual breeder concerns about the potential effects of discarding D dogs from the gene pool are voiced.
The fact that the popular sire syndrome is a very important cause of genetic loss never seems to be recognised.

The guidelines ensure that there is a place for D dogs that genuinely have other good health genes to offer, but they should always have a grade A mate.
Such a breeding does bring a greater risk of SM affected offspring than using two grade A parents.

There is to me a very telling sentence when this CHLC member writes that hundreds of dogs have been scanned in the last two or three years as breeders have slowly realized that they really do have a problem.
It sounds good, but to put it in context Club members received a leaflet eight years ago saying that SM was a rapidly spreading problem.

It was already known that the top stud dogs were producing offspring with SM, so it did not take a lot of knowledge to realise those SM genes would be spreading through the gene pool?

Six years to slowly realize they really do have a problem?

How much longer before breed club health representatives stop wasting time planning how they can prevent the full extent of the health problems being revealed and we see the CHLC take some real action to address the problems of SM and MVD?


SOME CAVALIER IN-BRED CO-EFFICIENTS


Can I thank Margaret for her Thought- Provoking Post, it sure brings home to us who really Love our Cavalier Breed, where we now stand.

That CKCS Health Representatives may use every Excuse they can think of for not Tackling the SM and MVD Problems Afflicting our Cavaliers.

I have been told by some Eminent Members of the CKCS Committee this useless Phrase ,that a MVD or SM Health Health Check is only worth for the Day it is done, this I may add was from one of the Newly Appointed CKCS CLUB Health Representatives !!

It should not be forgotten either that the Other CKCS CLUB Health Reprentative has said that she does not believe the 50% Figure of Cavaliers having a Heart Murmur at 5-6 years of age which has been mentioned by MVD Researchers.

Finally don't forget that newly Appointed Chairman of the CKCS CLUB's Health Liason Committee spent TWO YEARS ,yes TWO YEARS fighting the BBC about the PDE TV Program which had mentioned the SM Problem in Cavaliers in it , his Complaint was Over-Turned .

Those are the People who are involved with the Cavalier Club trying to improve the Health of Cavaliers.

How can that be possible when they have Expressed their Opinions so forceably about the SM and MVD Health Problems in Cavaliers.

Bet

Margaret C
22nd March 2011, 03:57 PM
I can see why some may be not for outcrossing with another breed or have that opinion. I don't understand if a cavalier is tested clear or of good "health" genes, why would it matter where it came from? Those cavaliers just might be the saving grace or true gems.

Help me understand that please

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Hello Anne,

Cavaliers were recreated in the 1920s by using the flat faced King Charles Spaniels ( known as English Toy Spaniels in USA )
'Charlies' that produced undesirable longer nosed offspring were the founders of the cavaliers.

Along the way it is known for sure that Cocker spaniels were added in and it is suspected that the dog that was used when the breed standard ( the detailed description of what all cavaliers should ideally look like ) was written was half papillon.

So we have a breed created from the rejects of another breed and some genes from other breeds.

Cavaliers are a dog that was created for showing. The incentive to breed a toy spaniel with an obvious nose came from a large ( for the time ) cash prize offered at Crufts by an American disaappointed that there were no longer any spaniels that looked like the small 'comforters' featured in old time paintings.

The desire to breed successful winning cavaliers has led show breeders to consider only show bred cavaliers are of value when breeding programmes are planned.
Show bred spaniels are closely line bred. The top sire at one given time is often the son of a former top sire, but over the years, especially after a cavalier won Crufts back in the 1970s the cavalier also became a popular family pet.

Puppy farmers found it worth while to start selling cavaliers and separate breeding programmes were developed.
These cavaliers, that now have very few recent ancestors in common with show bred cavaliers, may possess different 'good' genes that could help this breed.
If the alternative is to outcross to another breed, I would have thought it was at least worth exploring.

These dogs may come from puppy farm lines, there may be suspicions about some of the puppy farm pedigrees ( but the recent use of DNA testing in the USA has shown that even show breeders pedigrees are not always to be trusted ) but for the purists who do not want a drop of alien blood to spoil their breed, they are still cavaliers.

The crux of the matter is that most show breeders will not want to bring in any fresh blood, whether it is non-show cavalier or a different breed. The results of such breeding may have healthier genes but are not likely to be the show clone they aim for in their breeding.

They do not want to breed unhealthy cavaliers but their priority is to produce dogs that will be shown.The majority of puppies may go as family pets but they are a by-product of their breeding programmes, not the reason that they breed.

Until the KC makes health as important as beauty in the show ring, breeders will drag their feet and this breed will suffer.

RodRussell
22nd March 2011, 04:30 PM
... How much longer before [UK] breed club health representatives stop wasting time planning how they can prevent the full extent of the health problems being revealed and we see the CHLC take some real action to address the problems of SM and MVD?

As bad as the UK CKCS club's inertia appears to be, that club is light-years ahead of the two national USA CKCS clubs when it comes to accepting the MVD and CM/SM breeding protocols.

The "leadership" of both the ACKCSC and the CKCSC,USA act as if they could not care less about eliminating early-onset MVD and CM/SM in the cavailer King Charles spaniel.

anniemac
22nd March 2011, 04:43 PM
As bad as the UK CKCS club's inertia appears to be, that club is light-years ahead of the two national USA CKCS clubs when it comes to accepting the MVD and CM/SM breeding protocols.

The "leadership" of both the ACKCSC and the CKCSC,USA act as if they could not care less about eliminating early-onset MVD and CM/SM in the cavailer King Charles spaniel.

Agree Rod. I was actually impressed with all the information on the site. Whether or not they do anything with it is not something I know but it seems like they have a ton more information than what we have.

Bet
22nd March 2011, 06:49 PM
Hello Anne,

Cavaliers were recreated in the 1920s by using the flat faced King Charles Spaniels ( known as English Toy Spaniels in USA )
'Charlies' that produced undesirable longer nosed offspring were the founders of the cavaliers.

Along the way it is known for sure that Cocker spaniels were added in and it is suspected that the dog that was used when the breed standard ( the detailed description of what all cavaliers should ideally look like ) was written was half papillon.

So we have a breed created from the rejects of another breed and some genes from other breeds.

Cavaliers are a dog that was created for showing. The incentive to breed a toy spaniel with an obvious nose came from a large ( for the time ) cash prize offered at Crufts by an American disaappointed that there were no longer any spaniels that looked like the small 'comforters' featured in old time paintings.

The desire to breed successful winning cavaliers has led show breeders to consider only show bred cavaliers are of value when breeding programmes are planned.
Show bred spaniels are closely line bred. The top sire at one given time is often the son of a former top sire, but over the years, especially after a cavalier won Crufts back in the 1970s the cavalier also became a popular family pet.

Puppy farmers found it worth while to start selling cavaliers and separate breeding programmes were developed.
These cavaliers, that now have very few recent ancestors in common with show bred cavaliers, may possess different 'good' genes that could help this breed.
If the alternative is to outcross to another breed, I would have thought it was at least worth exploring.

These dogs may come from puppy farm lines, there may be suspicions about some of the puppy farm pedigrees ( but the recent use of DNA testing in the USA has shown that even show breeders pedigrees are not always to be trusted ) but for the purists who do not want a drop of alien blood to spoil their breed, they are still cavaliers.

The crux of the matter is that most show breeders will not want to bring in any fresh blood, whether it is non-show cavalier or a different breed. The results of such breeding may have healthier genes but are not likely to be the show clone they aim for in their breeding.

They do not want to breed unhealthy cavaliers but their priority is to produce dogs that will be shown.The majority of puppies may go as family pets but they are a by-product of their breeding programmes, not the reason that they breed.

Until the KC makes health as important as beauty in the show ring, breeders will drag their feet and this breed will suffer.


SOME CAVALIER IN-BRED CO-EFFICIENTS


Is it not about time some Cavalier Breeders stopped blaming all the Ill Health of our Cavalier Breed on Puppy Farms ( how I hate them)but where is the Evidence that the Cavaliers from Puppy Farms and BYB's have more Health Problems than the Cavaliers that have been Bred by CKCS Breeders who are CKCS CLUB MEMBERS .

Who has carried out this Survey and when was it done?

Until the Results of a Survey ever having been carried out, no-body can say that the Cavaliers from Puppy Farms are suffering from more SM and MVD Problems in our Cavaliers.

Surely the Priority has to be to save the Cavalier Breed from Extinction , for Goodness Sake use some of those Puppy Farm Cavaliers ,get them Health Tested for no Signs of SM or MVD ,and use them in Cavalier Breeding Programs.

The Lovers of the Cavalier Breed will never Forgive the Cavalier Breeders who are so Blinkered that they will not give those Puppy Farm Bred Cavaliers the Chance to see if they could be the Saving of our Cherished Cavaliers.

Bet
.

Davecav
22nd March 2011, 08:54 PM
SOME CAVALIER IN-BRED CO-EFFICIENTS


Is it not about time some Cavalier Breeders stopped blaming all the Ill Health of our Cavalier Breed on Puppy Farms ( how I hate them)but where is the Evidence that the Cavaliers from Puppy Farms and BYB's have more Health Problems than the Cavaliers that have been Bred by CKCS Breeders who are CKCS CLUB MEMBERS .

Who has carried out this Survey and when was it done?

Until the Results of a Survey ever having been carried out, no-body can say that the Cavaliers from Puppy Farms are suffering from more SM and MVD Problems in our Cavaliers.

Surely the Priority has to be to save the Cavalier Breed from Extinction , for Goodness Sake use some of those Puppy Farm Cavaliers ,get them Health Tested for no Signs of SM or MVD ,and use them in Cavalier Breeding Programs.

The Lovers of the Cavalier Breed will never Forgive the Cavalier Breeders who are so Blinkered that they will not give those Puppy Farm Bred Cavaliers the Chance to see if they could be the Saving of our Cherished Cavaliers.

Bet
.

Conversely by your argument above, there is no evidence that Cavaliers bred by Cavalier club members are less healthy than puppy farm cavaliers.

I know where I would put my money and I know where I would go to buy my next Cavalier!!! (just for the record - it most definitely won't be a puppy farm - they are despicable and anyone who buys from them are in effect condoning their existence)icon_whistling

RodRussell
22nd March 2011, 10:49 PM
... I know where I would put my money and I know where I would go to buy my next Cavalier!!!

If you already know that, but you have not reviewed the genetic health testing reports on the sire and dam, and you have not checked on whether the MVD, CM/SM and other breeding protocols have been followed or not, then you would be making a mistake, in my book (which, by the way, has not come out yet ;)).

My point is that a cavalier puppy buyer should not just choose a type of breeder, or even a specific breeder. The buyer should choose a specific litter, and while doing so, get as much specific health testing information as possible about the sire and dam of that litter.

anniemac
22nd March 2011, 11:11 PM
Rod,

I edited reply, but you can't think that puppy mills are a good place to start? Maybe I'm reading wrong but you are simply stating not to depend on past? Even your website says in the usa to start with club health clinic volunteers to ask and the breed health club committee chairman.

I do think a breeder could do all health testing on one litter and not another. Its good to know where to start the search, but even so, pet buyers should still ask the questions you list and see certificates. I would imagine those that have done or followed protocols would volunteer or would gladly give results and certificates. I would also think the breeders truly health focused would be wanting to place puppies with buyers who ask these questions.

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Davecav
22nd March 2011, 11:33 PM
If you already know that, but you have not reviewed the genetic health testing reports on the sire and dam, and you have not checked on whether the MVD, CM/SM and other breeding protocols have been followed or not, then you would be making a mistake, in my book (which, by the way, has not come out yet ;)).

My point is that a cavalier puppy buyer should not just choose a type of breeder, or even a specific breeder. The buyer should choose a specific litter, and while doing so, get as much specific health testing information as possible about the sire and dam of that litter.

I have read and genned up on health issues, and would go to a breeder who health tested and used health tested, and preferably older sires to try and combat MVD. The chances are, in the UK that this type of breeder will be a member of at least one of the regional clubs, if not the central UK club., though it is possible that they may not be.

Dodo bird
23rd March 2011, 03:45 AM
Is it not about time some Cavalier Breeders stopped blaming all the Ill Health of our Cavalier Breed on Puppy Farms ( how I hate them)but where is the Evidence that the Cavaliers from Puppy Farms and BYB's have more Health Problems than the Cavaliers that have been Bred by CKCS Breeders who are CKCS CLUB MEMBERS .

Who has carried out this Survey and when was it done?


I don't know if there is one for CKCS but a Scottish Terrier health survey (http://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://www.tartanscottie.com/pages/GSM_2005_Health_Survey_Report_1column.pdf) showed that there is barely any difference between well-bred Scotties and Scotties from backyard breeders/puppy farms etc.


Whether Scotties are ‘well-bred’ or otherwise, on average their morbidity is the same and medical costs are the same... This evidence contradicts the received wisdom that a Scottie from a show breeder assures better health and fewer medical bills. Furthermore, this data shows our health problems cannot be attributed to puppy mills since show dogs manifest the same health risks on average as pet store Scotties, indicating a Scottie gene pool thoroughly homogenous in terms of morbidity.
...well-bred Scotties on average are a mere 2.8% healthier than non-professionally bred Scotties. Common parlance treats pet store and backyard bred dogs as synonymous with puppy mills, ill health and bad breeding, yet actual Scottie numbers disprove that assumption. Given higher prices demanded for Scotties bred by show breeders and claims of excellence it might be expected there would be greater differential in average percentage of health problems between the two groups. At the very least, this evidence suggests ‘well-bred’ in current usage is in need of redefinition.

Bet
23rd March 2011, 11:26 AM
Conversely by your argument above, there is no evidence that Cavaliers bred by Cavalier club members are less healthy than puppy farm cavaliers.

I know where I would put my money and I know where I would go to buy my next Cavalier!!! (just for the record - it most definitely won't be a puppy farm - they are despicable and anyone who buys from them are in effect condoning their existence)icon_whistling


SOME CAVALIER IN-BRED CO-EFFICIENTS

Davecav ,

We are not discussing about the buying of a Single Cavalier from a Puppy Farm, it is about Salvaging the Cavalier Breed which is on the Verge of Extinction.

The state of Cavaliers now ,is that 50% have Murmurs at 5-6 years of age ,and this is no better than it was 18 years ago, not my words but those of Cardiologist who is Researching the MVD Problem in our Cavalier Breed.

That many Cavaliers are Carriers of MVD Genes, also the words Cardiologists researching MVD in Cavaliers.

90% of Cavaliers have CM ,which is Chacterised with Brains too Big and Skulls too Small .

Can this be involved with the Cerebro Spinal Fluid not getting properly around the Brain and causing Syrinxes to form .

Then we have the Frightening information that 85 Whelps Researched in the Foetal Tissue Research .

ALL HAD CM.

None of us like the Idea of Puppy Farms, but the Cavalier Breed is between a Rock and a Hard Place, now that it is being considered that Out -Crossing might have to be involved to save the Cavalier Breed ,please tell me Davecav ,what is wrong with the CKCS CLUB buying 30-40 Cavaliers from Puppy Farms ,that have been Health Tested not to have SM or MVD and using them in Cavalier Breeding Programs ,with Researchers and Geneticists supervising this .

This way would bring fresh Cavalier Strains into the Breed.

Or would you prefer that there were no more Cavaliers?


Bet

Karlin
23rd March 2011, 11:40 AM
Bet, I really don't think it would be necessary or desireable to buy (and therefore, support and fund) cavaliers from puppy farms. There are huge numbers of cavaliers being bred by non-club breeders with lines that do NOT immediately go back to the same small groups of dogs. Most cavalier breeders in Ireland probably fit this profile -- many breed on a modest scale and use dogs long separated from popular sires and show lines. My own clear dog for example is now several generations away from show stock. I have always felt clubs should be scanning some of these dogs in the search for clears.

Incidentally some of the only fully clear dogs -- clear for SM AND CM -- came from old lines isolated from major UK show lines, in Australia. There have been other claims for fully clear dogs but unless their scans have been read by one of the core group of neurologists involved in setting the scan standard, I don;t think those reports can be accepted -- I know of too many cases where radiologists and neurologists less familiar with CM/SM have declared a dog is free of CM when it was not (including a couple of cases where even I could see the dog had CM).

I would not actually think puppy farm dogs are that long separated from show lines anyway -- I know for fact that a lot of them get dogs by buying them off pet owners who think they are rehoming their dogs to nice families, and supply the papers enabling them to get club registration themselves for the puppies. I know one Northern Irish well known breeder who found one of her dogs during a puppy farm raid that had been sold as a pet and somehow had been sold or given to the puppy farm :( -- and went on to show her successfully.

Karlin
23rd March 2011, 11:44 AM
I don't know if there is one for CKCS but a Scottish Terrier health survey (http://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://www.tartanscottie.com/pages/GSM_2005_Health_Survey_Report_1column.pdf) showed that there is barely any difference between well-bred Scotties and Scotties from backyard breeders/puppy farms etc.


Whether Scotties are ‘well-bred’ or otherwise, on average their morbidity is the same and medical costs are the same... This evidence contradicts the received wisdom that a Scottie from a show breeder assures better health and fewer medical bills. Furthermore, this data shows our health problems cannot be attributed to puppy mills since show dogs manifest the same health risks on average as pet store Scotties, indicating a Scottie gene pool thoroughly homogenous in terms of morbidity.
...well-bred Scotties on average are a mere 2.8% healthier than non-professionally bred Scotties. Common parlance treats pet store and backyard bred dogs as synonymous with puppy mills, ill health and bad breeding, yet actual Scottie numbers disprove that assumption. Given higher prices demanded for Scotties bred by show breeders and claims of excellence it might be expected there would be greater differential in average percentage of health problems between the two groups. At the very least, this evidence suggests ‘well-bred’ in current usage is in need of redefinition.

Wow -- really interesting! I would always have held this point of view on cavaliers as well -- vets confirm they don;t see any big difference either and no surprise if the majority do not health test properly or follow breeding protocols. In Ireland it is hard to find a *single* breeder including show breeders who use cardiologists or follow the MVD protocol. As for SM -- I know of one or two who scan and that is it -- and one is not a show breeder or club member. I have plenty of horror stories about leading club breeders here including a one prominent one who supports her friends who are total BYBs and helps them breed. :mad:

Bet
23rd March 2011, 12:21 PM
Bet, I really don't think it would be necessary or desireable to buy (and therefore, support and fund) cavaliers from puppy farms. There are huge numbers of cavaliers being bred by non-club breeders with lines that do NOT immediately go back to the same small groups of dogs. Most cavalier breeders in Ireland probably fit this profile -- many breed on a modest scale and use dogs long separated from popular sires and show lines. My own clear dog for example is now several generations away from show stock. I have always felt clubs should be scanning some of these dogs in the search for clears.

Incidentally some of the only fully clear dogs -- clear for SM AND CM -- came from old lines isolated from major UK show lines, in Australia. There have been other claims for fully clear dogs but unless their scans have been read by one of the core group of neurologists involved in setting the scan standard, I don;t think those reports can be accepted -- I know of too many cases where radiologists and neurologists less familiar with CM/SM have declared a dog is free of CM when it was not (including a couple of cases where even I could see the dog had CM).

I would not actually think puppy farm dogs are that long separated from show lines anyway -- I know for fact that a lot of them get dogs by buying them off pet owners who think they are rehoming their dogs to nice families, and supply the papers enabling them to get club registration themselves for the puppies. I know one Northern Irish well known breeder who found one of her dogs during a puppy farm raid that had been sold as a pet and somehow had been sold or given to the puppy farm :( -- and went on to show her successfully.


SOME CAVALIER IN-BRED CO-EFFICIENTS.

This was just a thought I had to try and get Fresh Blood Lines into the Cavalier Breed , I hate the thought of encouraging Puppy Farms ,but thought if to save our Cavaliers ,then so be it.

But your way is much better,

Find Breeding Cavaliers with not much Show Scene Pedigree Backgrounds, since those Cavaliers are such a Small Tightly Knit Group of Cavaliers, is this where the Problem lies with Cavaliers

Bet

Margaret C
23rd March 2011, 01:16 PM
Bet, I really don't think it would be necessary or desireable to buy (and therefore, support and fund) cavaliers from puppy farms. There are huge numbers of cavaliers being bred by non-club breeders with lines that do NOT immediately go back to the same small groups of dogs. Most cavalier breeders in Ireland probably fit this profile -- many breed on a modest scale and use dogs long separated from popular sires and show lines. My own clear dog for example is now several generations away from show stock. I have always felt clubs should be scanning some of these dogs in the search for clears.



The ethics of buying from puppy farms is obviously something that would need to be considered, but I have certainly seen non-club cavaliers with well known PF affixes that have only one or two 'show' affixes in the fifth generation.

It may be true that PF have nothing to offer us in the way of fresh genes but none of us can really know without some investigation being done and that was the point of my original post. We should at this point be looking to see what is and what isn't possible, not just speculating.

Check things out, if it turns out to be useless then say "okay we tried" and look elsewhere.
If you pass the first hurdle then check it out some more. At least this breed's guardians will have started to do something.

I know that this would be controversial, but there are very occasionally some youngish rescues come into places like Many Tears.

Perhaps breed clubs could negotiate the release of the occasional young bitch that has not been already exhausted through multiple pregnancies with agreement for just one litter before she is spayed, or better still ask the Rescue to allow some cavalier males to be given low cost MRIs and, if Grade A, give semen for storage before the routine neutering that most Rescue policies demand.

RodRussell
23rd March 2011, 02:42 PM
Rod, I edited reply, but you can't think that puppy mills are a good place to start? ...

Anne, I would not waste my time looking for a litter from a puppy farmer or back-yard-breeder. My point is that I also would not leap to the conclusion that club breeders, who show -- and perhaps win -- in conformation, are any better at following the genetic health breeding protocols.

As the then chairman of the UK CKCS club stated in 2009: "There are many members who are still not prepared to health check their breeding stock, and of those who do, it would appear that many would not hesitate to breed from affected animals."

If that is the case for UK club member breeders, just imagine how bad the situation is among USA club member breeders, since those two national clubs do not even endorse the MVD and CM/SM breeding protocols which the UK club does endorse.

So, in short: Show me the health-testing records and pedigree to verify the ages of the parents and their four grandparents, since age is also an important factor in complying with those breeding protocols.

Karlin
23rd March 2011, 05:27 PM
Rod, I don't know if it is correct to say the UK club 'endorses' either protocol. They do post them to the club website, which is far better than some clubs; but the language used around these guidelines certainly gives no sense of endorsement I think? SM guidelines are emphasised in bold print to be recommendations from neurologists, not anything the club specifically endorses in its ethics statement for club members. The same goes for the MVD protocol -- where the ethics statement says only that as 'guidance' breeders 'should' have a clear heart cert (but the club also has no big issue with this coming from a vet -- at least the US clubs always state this needs to be from a cardiologist). Only as 'guidance'? Not even as 'best practice'? Or 'the club endorses using...' Plenty of wriggle room for breeders.

This is all that the UK club ethics statement says on breeding, regarding health testing:


By way of guidance, dogs under five years of age should hold a current clear heart certificate. A current clear eye certificate is strongly recommended. More specific guideline's apply to MVD (see Appendix B). More specific recommendations apply to SM (see Appendix C).


I don't see this as much of an endorsement and at any rate the club cardiologist himself has noted his disappointment in the club's failure to use cardiologists or follow the guidelines.

The club does deserve praise for at least posting the neurologists' recommendations but nowhere that I can find do they suggest they are strong *club* recommendations/approved by the club. Maybe somewhere they do and they haven;t as yet worked those endorsements into the ethics statement (which maybe should be a priority...)

Separate to that -- really -- they need someone to redesign the site and bring it beyond mid-90s technology and design and poor usability -- using frames makes it impossible for most to figure out how to post a direct link to any information of any sort on the site which keeps much information inaccessible or hard to find for many users. Frames were considered poor (and ugly) design in 1997 much less almost 15 years later. :rolleyes:

Bet
23rd March 2011, 07:23 PM
The ethics of buying from puppy farms is obviously something that would need to be considered, but I have certainly seen non-club cavaliers with well known PF affixes that have only one or two 'show' affixes in the fifth generation.

It may be true that PF have nothing to offer us in the way of fresh genes but none of us can really know without some investigation being done and that was the point of my original post. We should at this point be looking to see what is and what isn't possible, not just speculating.

Check things out, if it turns out to be useless then say "okay we tried" and look elsewhere.
If you pass the first hurdle then check it out some more. At least this breed's guardians will have started to do something.

I know that this would be controversial, but there are very occasionally some youngish rescues come into places like Many Tears.

Perhaps breed clubs could negotiate the release of the occasional young bitch that has not been already exhausted through multiple pregnancies with agreement for just one litter before she is spayed, or better still ask the Rescue to allow some cavalier males to be given low cost MRIs and, if Grade A, give semen for storage before the routine neutering that most Rescue policies demand.


SOME CAVALIER IN-BRED CO-EFFICIENTS.


I have been another think about Margaret's Post.

I know that the PF's Cavaliers Pedigrees cannot be depended on , but if some of the Cavaliers were Health Tested and had no SM or MVD, could this not be at least tried.

The Cavalier's Future is at a critical Stage, there has to be Fresh Genes brought into the Breed from some-where.

I just don't have a Clue how this can be done, other than trying this.

I think this is the only way to try and save the Cavalier Breed, use Cavalier Breeding Stock that has no MVD or SM , even knowing the Pedigree Back-Grounds probably won't help much, so we are back to Square One, Cavalier Breeders to Follow the Cavalier Breeding Guidelines, Even this advice maybe won't work ,I was recently told by Professor Jens Haggstrom, that it would be better if Cavalier Breeders did'nt Breed from a Cavalier before 5 years of age.

Never in a Month of Sundays would Cavalier Breeders take this advice, so maybe using Cavaliers from where-ever, just might help.

Bet

anniemac
23rd March 2011, 09:48 PM
Can someone please clarify puppy farms and is this just the uk? We have the term puppy mill and big difference. Also I'm not sure difference in usa (obviously rod would agree clubs need more information etc.) But why does being in a breed club necessarily mean they breed for top show dogs?

Granted clubs have faults but wouldn't it be better if more people were involved in the clubs whether for show or not? I'm sure there are some that want champions in pedigrees but maybe the ckcsc usa they have to have a certain pedigree to vote but can't anyone be involved whether or not they breed for show or health or both?

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anniemac
23rd March 2011, 10:04 PM
Like others here, I also have come across people who left the show world because they felt there was not enough emphasis on breeding for health but decided that it was worth trying to produce puppies that have been bred using the protocols and existing health tests. One such that I know of has nearly a dozen A grade dogs that have been scanned under the formal scanning protocol. Some of these will not have pedigrees that immediately go back to show dogs–and have remained isolated from that whole scene, as well as popular sires–and perhaps that is why this breeder is having such an extraordinary number of excellent grades. She only breeds A dogs that also have clear hearts, as tested annually by a cardiologist.

All the dogs are registered, but she is not in the breed club. She has just made a commitment to breeding for health, supporting research and producing health focused puppies for pet homes.

.

Karlin,

Is it different in the USA? Wouldn't these breeders be valuable to clubs and for future of Cavaliers? I am sure it is tiring with club politics but these would be breeders, voters, members that could help. Maybe I am so new to this, but without club members dedicated to protection of breed and health, what would happen? As a pet owner and for other potential buyers, I would start out with our two national clubs. (Still ask questions) but those that are active and involved seem to be ones to set examples so that others would hopefully follow. Just my thoughts.

Davecav
23rd March 2011, 10:31 PM
"Can someone please clarify puppy farms and is this just the uk? We have the term puppy mill and big difference. Also I'm not sure difference in usa (obviously rod would agree clubs need more information etc.) But why does being in a breed club necessarily mean they breed for top show dogs?" - from Anniemac

Yes I would also like to find out as I'm also getting confused here (and I live in the UK)
Puppy farms mean to me the most vile, dirty degrading places with hundreds of poor, undernourished and uncared for dogs that never see the light of day and bred from at each season. Dogs that have no bedding, no stimulus, v.little human contact and living in their own filth.
I am of the impression that the owners of these h*** holes wouldn't KC register their dogs.
Margaret Carter posts that she knows of puppy farms that do register their dogs, Are these farms as bad as the ones I have described? Or are they described as puppy farms becasue they are large commercial kennels that overbreed?

From what I have heard and read (and seen on websites such as Many Tears) dogs coming from such establishments often have early onset heart problems, coupled with other inherited conditions such as slipping patela, poor hips, eye conditions (that may on may not be inherited)

Pat
23rd March 2011, 10:47 PM
I was recently told by Professor Jens Haggstrom, that it would be better if Cavalier Breeders didn't Breed from a Cavalier before 5 years of age.

Never in a Month of Sundays would Cavalier Breeders take this advice, so maybe using Cavaliers from where-ever, just might help.

Bet

Well of course no breeder would take that advice because it is dangerous to breed a bitch for the first time at that age! At the 1998 heart symposium, the panelists said that, from the standpoint of using healthy dogs in a breeding program, it would be advisable to breed dogs at 5 or older when it was certain that they did not have early onset inherited disease. However, from a practical standpoint this cannot be done because dogs of this age are past their breeding prime and it would be dangerous to breed a bitch that old for the first time. The solution was to breed dogs at age 2.5 if the four parents of both dogs were clear at the age of 5. It's less problematic for males because you can store semen but there is no way around it for bitches - it's irresponsible to wait until a bitch is age 5 to breed her!


Pat

anniemac
23rd March 2011, 10:59 PM
On another side, the term commercial breeder could be someone with 12 cavaliers I believe in some states. This breeder could have the best conditions, breed for health etc. and under certain laws or "puppy mill" laws trying to get passed they would fall in to that category. Its hard to put a name on it so that's why it is confusing me.

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Karlin
23rd March 2011, 10:59 PM
without club members dedicated to protection of breed and health, what would happen?

Well, I think we are already seeing what happens -- plenty of club members are not dedicated to either of those goals, but simply give lip service. Their actions show otherwise.

As to what will happen? The UK club's own previous chairwoman has already stated clearly what she KNOWS is happening, and what she thinks will occur as a result:


It would seem that cavalier club members continue to progress, like lemmings, towards mandatory breeding regulations that will surely come, as surely as night follows day. There are many members who are still not prepared to health check their breeding stock, and of those who do, it would appear that many would not hesitate to breed from affected animals. I have tried my utmost to defend and support the breed and the club. This weekend was proof, if proof is needed, that there is no point in deluding myself, or others, that self-regulation is possible.’

That is what she posted to the front page of the club website immediately following the club's AGM in 2009.

Now, a little over a year later, we have prominent club breeders debating whether cavaliers really do have such a high incidence of MVD (my vet burst out laughing last week that this was their latest 'health concern' -- any vet can tell them how high the incidence is). We have national US clubs who actually posted not long ago that SM incidence was 2% in the breed to the club website. And another national club that has decided to reject part of the MVD protocol to allow breeders to breed earlier (so much about concerns about a devastating late onset disease).

Karlin
23rd March 2011, 11:08 PM
the term commercial breeder could be someone with 12 cavaliers I believe in some states. This breeder could have the best conditions, breed for health etc. and under certain laws or "puppy mill" laws trying to get passed they would fall in to that category.

If someone is breeding 12 or more cavaliers they SHOULD be classified as a commercial breeder as far as I am concerned and should be open to inspection and required to meet minimum kennelling standards.

Take the breeder complaints about such laws -- and how they would hurt all of them trying oh so hard to breed healthy dogs -- with a BIG grain of salt. Basically they don't want to be open to any kind of scrutiny or inspection. If you have that many breeding dogs, I fully believe people should have to meet minimal standards.

But this is not a thread about puppy farms per se -- can we keep this on topic, about COIs and breeding standards.

Perhaps open another thread if people wish to discuss puppy farms/mills as an issue in themselves; thanks.

Pat
24th March 2011, 12:37 AM
None of us like the Idea of Puppy Farms, but the Cavalier Breed is between a Rock and a Hard Place, now that it is being considered that Out -Crossing might have to be involved to save the Cavalier Breed ,please tell me Davecav ,what is wrong with the CKCS CLUB buying 30-40 Cavaliers from Puppy Farms ,that have been Health Tested not to have SM or MVD and using them in Cavalier Breeding Programs ,with Researchers and Geneticists supervising this .

Bet

OK, let's think this through........

Who is going to pay for these 30-40 Cavaliers, where are they going to live, and who is going to pay for their daily upkeep expenses? Who is going to make the breeding decisions and do the actual hands-on breeding, whelping and puppy rearing? Who is going to follow the offspring and keep statistics? Or maybe you are thinking that current breeders will accept these 30-40 unknown into their current breeding programs, a few into each kennel? I can promise you that researchers and pet owners aren't going to do this work.

Since we won't know if these 30-40 Cavaliers will be "health tested not to have SM or MVD" until they are at least 5 years old (since both conditions are progressive and won't be eliminated as early onset until at least the age of 5 and better still if they were older), by the time they are proven to be healthy, they will be too old to be bred.

Who is going to pay for their health tests, which must be repeated at specific intervals?

So perhaps we purchase these 30-40 AND their parents so that we have at least two generations to follow in order to determine age of onset and still have candidates young enough to breed. (multiply and figure out where they are going to live and who is going to pay for their purchase and upkeep..). Or we breed the original 40 and run on their puppies so that we can follow at least two generations (again multiply costs and figure out where they are going to live...).

As dogs are culled from the program because they fail their health tests at too young an age, what is going to happen to them? Are there pet owners waiting to adopt them or purchase them?

We must logically think through all of the ramifications of these ideas rather than just tossing them out.

Much better IMO to seek out those breeders that Karlin referenced that are outside of the breed club but might have some valuable healthy breeding stock......and encourage current club breeders to search for some candidates to bring into their program not closely related to their own stock (think about my Kilspindie littermates with the COI of 3.22 - line bred but with an outcross used not only for parents but for one grandparent).


Pat

Margaret C
24th March 2011, 01:16 AM
Maybe I am so new to this, but without club members dedicated to protection of breed and health, what would happen? As a pet owner and for other potential buyers, I would start out with our two national clubs. (Still ask questions) but those that are active and involved seem to be ones to set examples so that others would hopefully follow. Just my thoughts.

Anne,

There are a lot of responsible breeders quietly trying to breed healthy puppies according to the guidelines that the veterinary experts have given us, unfortunately not a lot of them seem to be on cavalier club committees.

I think that most people would, like you, take it for granted that those that run the breed clubs, that have the ability to influence other breeders and make the decisions that shape the future of cavaliers, will set an example for ordinary breeders to follow.

In the UK that is not the case. Many of those that sit on cavalier club committees openly flout the rules that would reduce the rate of SM and MVD in Cavaliers. The others on the committee keep quiet and let them.
They are not dedicated to breed or health. Many of them are dedicated to producing cavaliers that will win in the show ring.
They are stupid, irresponsible and greedy. Breeding cavaliers is a money making business and their dogs are commodities.

I was recently told that one committee member at a high profile championship show publicly denied that heart testing was something that mattered?

When young dogs are allowed to sire more than 50 puppies by the time they are 18 months old, without any concern being expressed about the chances of them developing early onset MVD or SM, then I think it should matter and some action should be taken?

I was at an regional club AGM last Sunday where a proposal that all committee members agree to breed according to the health guidelines was overwhelmingly beaten.

One of the reasons given. It was discrimination to expect committee members to obey their own club's rules?

While committee members break the rules then they have no moral authority to stop the most blatant flouting of standards by other members.

While club members make no attempt to self-regulate then they have no way of convincing the KC that club members are any better than any other breeder registering their puppies.

There are many times that I consider starting up a Cavalier Preservation Society.

Margaret C
24th March 2011, 01:40 AM
To get back to COI and one of my earlier posts. I do think that the Mate Select is going to show that a great many of club members cavaliers have surprisingly high inbreeding co-efficients.
The generations of line breeding that are recorded on the KC database will influence the results that are produced.

I do think there will be a significant difference between show bred cavaliers and those bred by non club breeders

anniemac
24th March 2011, 02:07 AM
Sorry margaret I now I see that you were the one and not pat that said this oops!

I've been told things from all sorts of people from health heads and others including people that are not seperate from clubs that alarm me.

pet owner was concerned for her friends cavaliers she has learned that are going through being diagnosed with sm etc. I know there are some that do care like the breeders you talk about. Do you not participate or be involved, urge other pet owners who to be active?

Actually the breed clubs ethics state to educate etc. So maybe we need to get people involved to help live up to that. They are the ones that should be out there to promote education, responsibility, health besides just showing. Whether they do that or not is up to people wanting them too.

Now, you have gone through all the club politics and so has margaret so you may be tired and not as naive as I am. I am naive but I have seen how even facebook has united people even not in clubs. I may get frustrated, disappointed, upset, but at least I'm going to try to meet people and learn. What do you do when you have pet owners in clubs saying I sure wish people would recognize this is a problem?

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anniemac
24th March 2011, 02:22 AM
Margaret,

The pet owner I'm referring to is in the usa and stated maybe if they knew what they are doing in the uk, they will notice :) just thought you would think that's funny.

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Davecav
24th March 2011, 09:32 AM
I was at an regional club AGM last Sunday where a proposal that all committee members agree to breed according to the health guidelines was overwhelmingly beaten.

One of the reasons given. It was discrimination to expect committee members to obey their own club's rules?

While committee members break the rules then they have no moral authority to stop the most blatant flouting of standards by other members. Margaret.


Guidelines are not rules; so they can't actually be broken..

Maybe the members of the clubs don't agree with the guidelines, in which case that is a different matter, maybe they should be reworded or revised? :confused:

Bet
24th March 2011, 10:01 AM
I was at an regional club AGM last Sunday where a proposal that all committee members agree to breed according to the health guidelines was overwhelmingly beaten.

One of the reasons given. It was discrimination to expect committee members to obey their own club's rules?

While committee members break the rules then they have no moral authority to stop the most blatant flouting of standards by other members. Margaret.


Guidelines are not rules; so they can't actually be broken..

Maybe the members of the clubs don't agree with the guidelines, in which case that is a different matter, maybe they should be reworded or revised? :confused:

SOME CAVALIER IN-BRED CO-EFFICIENTS

In reply to Davecav's Post.

If our Cavaliers could Speak,would they say.

WITH FRIENDS LIKE THIS ,WHO NEEDS............

Bet

tuppenlil
24th March 2011, 12:49 PM
Guidelines are not rules; so they can't actually be broken..

Maybe the members of the clubs don't agree with the guidelines, in which case that is a different matter, maybe they should be reworded or revised? :confused:

Clubs don't set breeding guidelines, they are given by specialists.

IMHO In this day and age following 'experts recommended Breeding Guidelines' would be wise. Look at what is happening in Holland. The best protection as a breeder comes from following specialists recommendations to help eradicate hereditary disease. Breeding with specialist guidance.

Late onset diseases are not present in young animals, even in their parents if they are still young. Does it really make any difference to a long term breeding programme to wait a year or 18 months longer ? Does it really make a difference to wait until the parents are 5 ?

A young stud dog, or young bitch, can spread their genes, good or bad, through a wide population, become grandparents, breeding doubled up on, all before their parents are old enough themselves to know if they are going to develop early onset disease themselves. Too late then to stop the spread of the undesirable genes - it could have gone into 3 more generations.
Too late then to change your mind ! Even worse if all your friends did the same thing!

I know there is an argument that says they've never been proven to work, but they've never been given a chance to prove that they don't work either.

Like many others, I really wish our breeds health problems could be simply eradicated by genetic tests.......

Maggie

Bet
24th March 2011, 07:14 PM
Clubs don't set breeding guidelines, they are given by specialists.

IMHO In this day and age following 'experts recommended Breeding Guidelines' would be wise. Look at what is happening in Holland. The best protection as a breeder comes from following specialists recommendations to help eradicate hereditary disease. Breeding with specialist guidance.

Late onset diseases are not present in young animals, even in their parents if they are still young. Does it really make any difference to a long term breeding programme to wait a year or 18 months longer ? Does it really make a difference to wait until the parents are 5 ?

A young stud dog, or young bitch, can spread their genes, good or bad, through a wide population, become grandparents, breeding doubled up on, all before their parents are old enough themselves to know if they are going to develop early onset disease themselves. Too late then to stop the spread of the undesirable genes - it could have gone into 3 more generations.
Too late then to change your mind ! Even worse if all your friends did the same thing!

I know there is an argument that says they've never been proven to work, but they've never been given a chance to prove that they don't work either.

Like many others, I really wish our breeds health problems could be simply eradicated by genetic tests.......

Maggie

SOME CAVALIER IN-BRED CO-EFFICIENTS

If the Researchers cannot be being Believed about the Cavalier Breeding Guidelines they are giving to Cavalier Breeders ,then who can be Believed.

It is such a Foolish claim to be made ,OH WELL, The Breeding Recommendations have never been Proven to Work .

WHO SAYS.

The same few Cavalier Breeders who probably have never given those Breeding Recommendations the Chance to see if they could be Successful or not.

Why do they seem to think that they should be the Voice of All Cavalier Breeders, do they not realize the Harm they are Inflicting on the Future of our Cavaliers , that is ,if the Cavaliers do have a Future , which is a Big Question at the Moment.

Bet

Bet
25th March 2011, 04:18 PM
SOME CAVALIER IN-BRED CO-EFFICIENTS

If the Researchers cannot be being Believed about the Cavalier Breeding Guidelines they are giving to Cavalier Breeders ,then who can be Believed.

It is such a Foolish claim to be made ,OH WELL, The Breeding Recommendations have never been Proven to Work .

WHO SAYS.

The same few Cavalier Breeders who probably have never given those Breeding Recommendations the Chance to see if they could be Successful or not.

Why do they seem to think that they should be the Voice of All Cavalier Breeders, do they not realize the Harm they are Inflicting on the Future of our Cavaliers , that is ,if the Cavaliers do have a Future , which is a Big Question at the Moment.

Bet



SOME CAVALIER IN-BRED CO-EFFICIENTS

Because I have been collecting the Ages of Long Lived Cavaliers for many years now and had noticed that a number of them had High COI's but had lived to a good age ,I've often wondered about this.

If I could Post this Reply that I have just received ,it might be of a wee bit of Interest.

"The COI is not inherently good or bad .

It is a Probability that due to Common Ancestry of an Individual's Sire and Dam that the Individual will have both Gene Variants from an Identical Ancestral Source at any Gene.

So, Progeny of a Full Sib Mating (where the Parents of the FSIBS are unrelated) is 0.25,i.e.there is a 25% chance that at any Gene (given a few Technical Assunptions) the 2 Coppies Inherited are Idenical .

This may be due to Selection for a Certain Trait ,or due to Small Population Size etc.

It is Important as a Measure of Risk ,since all Individuals Carry Defective Genes (MUTATIONS).

When Paired with a Fully Functional Copy ,they do not Represent a Problem ,but when COPIES are the Defective Version then Disease can Arise.

So the COI Represents a Risk of this of this happening , but does'nt make any Assessment of which Gene Pairs may have Identical Copies and Effects of Defective Copies.

Therefore ,it is quite Possible for Highly In-Bred Dogs to Live a Long Time. "

I hope I have understood this right, that it means that even although a Cavalier has a High COI ,lived to a Good Age, that it can be being said that Such and Such a Cavalier ,with a High COI lived to 15 or 16 years of age , so having a High COI makes no Difference , it depends on how Genes have Paired up for that particular Cavalier.

Hope this has made sense to you .

That Cavaliers with a High COI ,could still be at Risk.

Bet