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anniemac
21st March 2011, 03:23 PM
Question

Dr marino and scans at livs are they submitted to research with dr. Rusbridge? Karlin, I thought you said they were. I'm asking this because if someone scans older w/o rf money, would those results be helpful overall to the same cause?

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Love my Cavaliers
21st March 2011, 04:06 PM
Oliver had an MRI last year for cervical disc problems when he was nine years old and he scanned clear for SM. (He also does not have a heart murmur at age 10!) I sent a copy of his MRI to Clare Rusbridge and a swab of his DNA to Penny Knowler in Canada. Both seemed very appreciative. I don't know if he was counted in the total of dogs who scanned with Rupert's Fund money or not. But I'm assuming his results are still helpful somewhere along the line.

Pat
21st March 2011, 04:55 PM
Oliver's results definitely were an important contribution!

Anne - My understanding is that this is not done automatically - i.e., the various neurologists are not automatically sharing information. The owner has to obtain a copy of the MRI on a CD, and the dog has to be permanently identified by microchip number on the CD so that there is firm evidence of the dog's identity. Then a form is filled out for data submission and is sent to Clare Rusbridge and Penny Knowler - both in the UK at Stone Lion Vet Hospital in London, along with a copy of the dog's pedigree and the CD of the MRI.

Another copy of the form is sent via Fedex to Dr. Guy Rouleau/Karine Lachapelle at the CHUM-Research Center at Notre Dame Hospital in Montreal, Canada along with a copy of the pedigree and the DNA material. DNA material can be a cheek swab or blood. Blood is preferred, but it is invasive of course. I just pulled some extra blood when I did pre-anesthesia blood chem for Tucker, and he did not seem to mind.

All of this is coordinated through Penny Knowler, who is extremely helpful and friendly, via email. I've saved all of the forms, etc. from the process. I found that I had to be proactive in working with UGA, Fedex, etc. to pull all of this together, but it was well worth the effort to have it done "right." I also picked up the expenses of getting the MRI copied to CD (and I had a copy made for myself also), getting the blood (actually my vet didn't charge for that and others may not also if you tell them it is a research study) and fedexing package to Stone Lion.

We definitely want to see more U.S. Cavaliers participating in this research.

Pat

anniemac
21st March 2011, 05:11 PM
Thanks Pat!

I was trying to remember because someone mentioned it on another forum and I knew Dr. Marino follows Dr. Rusbridge grading but wanted to remember again how we can get people in the USA to help and where to send images. I know Dr. Olby wanted her own images for a second opinion when Ella was diagnosed. Ella had a CD but I can see just from that how they need consistantsy in imaging. I am reviewing an email from Penny Knowler now from way back when and will email her to see what MRI centers in the USA have good images. We know UGA :cool:

I just know LIVS cost for MRI's with their research is really cheap for study $500, and wouldn't it be nice if they worked together.

anniemac
21st March 2011, 05:13 PM
Pat can you email me the forms so I can put on my blog? I would love to help people out on where to send things if they are in the USA. acavaliersvoice@gmail.com

Pat
21st March 2011, 05:34 PM
Pat can you email me the forms so I can put on my blog?

Not without Penny's permission........you would need to coordinate with her about how to publicize this. It's a good idea but you need specific input from Penny.

Pat

anniemac
21st March 2011, 05:52 PM
I thought I deleted that. I just sent penny an email. Sorry

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anniemac
21st March 2011, 05:59 PM
Karlin,

I think Pat answered this question so can you close this thread so it will not be so confusing. Or can you close with where the sticky is or put a sticky of where to send information of where to send results CD, etc. for reference?

Karlin
22nd March 2011, 02:56 PM
LIVS does send scans for the genome research to Sarah Blott. Breeders in the US have been asked many, many times on various lists over *many* years now to please submit any MRIs for research. The clubs have not chosen to make this clear to their members, sadly and there is almost no visibility for the need to support this research.

Rupert's Fund does not really have the money to cover costs of scanning dogs in the US unless there is a very compelling reason to do a particular dog for research. Also, there seems to be a misunderstanding about what the fund is for. It is to be used to scan older dogs that researchers deem to be important to helping research -- not just to funding any older dog to be scanned. Anyone is invited to submit info on a potential RF dog to researchers, anywhere. It says this clearly on the website.

It would be a good idea for breeders in the US to organise a fund towards covering or helping to part-fund scanning costs, as has been suggested also *many* times over the years... at least half a decade ago it was highly recommended by several researchers that the clubs at least create a fund to scan significant sires as they have so much more genetic influence on the breed as they are so heavily used, but nothing happened. Breeders in the US also need to organise to work together through their influential clubs work towards the establishment of more low cost scanning programmes.

I am aware of one case in which a scanning centre approached a club to establish such a programme and had a very hard time getting anyone at all to respond. The programme would not be there if some of us had not insisted that breeders really did want such a scheme even if the clubs would not return phonecalls. :sl*p:

There is a lot US breeders could be driving themselves in regards to scanning and research and submitting scans. Incidentally the US scans were not initially going to be part of the EBVs until so few UK breeders responded to requests for scans and the programme STILL three years later suffers from too few scans even though well over thousand cavaliers have been scanned at one centre alone, most of those to club breeders.

Breeders want information, tools and results but they won;t get anything if they do not contribute themselves to research. Too many still sit on scans and their heart results (the fact that so many did the latter meant the genome research, which was to have also focused on finding a genetic test for MVD, had to drop that goal). Thus do petty breeder politics play out in research, and thus is subtle pressure put on others, generally the small breeders, not to support research either. And thus are breed health problems perpetuated, and thus do individual dogs die too early, too painfully.

There are some great supportive breeders out there but too many have a conscience only for their show trophies and the cash they get from selling puppies.

Karlin
22nd March 2011, 03:10 PM
People are mixing up two different projects here -- there are general scans for EBVs and then results for Clare/Penny for RF scans 9which are also sent for the EBVs as a matter of course). They are not the same thing. Pat is talking about results from an RF scan, NOT general scans of dogs for EBVs. All the detail goes toCanada because DNA is used from an RF dog for research.

Anne, the information on where to send general scan results for EBVs has been posted many times and I am sure it is somewhere on the site -- it is also posted on the RF website, on my SM website, on Clare's website, the UK Club site etc. This info does not go to Clare and Penny and they should NOT be sent CDs of scans unless they specifically say they want them -- info goes to Sarah Blott at the RVC and should be the RESULTS on a certificate not the CDs of scans unless she indicates otherwise. I am not sure Sarah Blott still is looking for this info from breeders outside the UK (excepting the participating research centres) and this should be checked with Sarah Blott.

Please get permission from researchers for posting anything to do with forms, information etc. It would be very confusing if people are suddenly sending information to Clare and Penny or Canada that should be going to Sarah Blott.

A lot of scanning centres already work with the EBV and genome research. LIVS has been involved with this for years.

As noted: US breeders/clubs really need to be raising funds for older dog scans, or alternatively contributing to RF in some significant way -- so far support from the US has been tiny (but much appreciated). The fund would be depleted after only a couple of US scans at this point whereas the same funds could do over a dozen UK scans, so encouraging US involvement in asking for RF scan support really also requires more US funds, to even consider covering the much higher costs of US scans.