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View Full Version : Where will the fresh genes for cavaliers come from?



Bet
24th March 2011, 10:18 AM
Karlin has suggested that a New Thread be started about this Subject ,so here goes.

I think we have now realized that there is to be no help from the CKCS CLUB COMMITTEE with some of it's newly appointed Health Representatives since one has said she will not Divulge the Results of the MRI Scans of her Cavaliers ,they are for her information only, another does not believe the figure of 50% of Cavaliers having Heart Murmurs ,and the Chairman of the Health Committees spent Two Years with his Complaint against the BBC about the PDE TV Program and the SM Problem in our Cavaliers ,it was over-turned.

Those Fresh Genes have to come from some-where to give the Cavalier Breed a Future.

Once more I will give the Health Figures given by the Researchers for our Cavalier Breed.

50% of Cavaliers have a Heart Murmur at 5-6 years of age ,this is no better than it was 18 years ago.

Many Cavaliers are Carriers of MVD GENES

90% of Cavaliers have CM ,which is Chacterised with too Big Brains and too Small Skulls.

85 Whelps in the Foetal Tissue Research ALL HAD CM.

Now to the $64,000 Question , it is no use depending on the CKCS CLUB COMMITTEE ,so have we just got to think of ways of Cavaliers getting Fresh Genes from what-ever source is available ,it is desperate times for our Breed.

One suggestion has been get some Cavaliers from Puppy Farms and BYB'S ,have them Health Tested for no SM or MVD and use them under the Supervision of the Researchers and Geneticists for Breeding Progams,I am sure that many of us who have lived through the Suffering of our Beloved Cavaliers ,would be more than willing to give those Cavaliers a Home and pay for the expenses needed if we thought that this could in any way save other Cavaliers from going through the same Agony that ours had had to endure.

Maybe some Others on this List could put their suggestions, let's put our Thinking Caps On , it's now up to us who are the True Lovers of Cavaliers to think of a way to get the Fresh Genes that are now so badly needed to Salvage our Cherished Cavaliers.

Bet

tuppenlil
24th March 2011, 10:59 AM
Those Fresh Genes have to come from some-where to give the Cavalier Breed a Future.


It is very possible that there are still some very "good" genes in the UK show population. We don't actually know unless many more breeders are willing to submit their animals for rescanning when they are older (and this information is published, and available to the EBV). Such a shame they don't take more advantage of funding as this can often be done for FREE with Ruperts Fund, or with the CKCS Club donation.

The EBV will help us to utilise these "good genes" to best advantage when they have been identified.

Its not very nice to risk coming away from another MRI scan without the 'A' that you had for your dog. It also puts you in a difficult position as regards the puppies that have been produced, or sold, in "good faith". But it is the best that can be done do to help the breed's future.

Breeders must not feel ashamed as well as disappointed, but feel positive they are working together towards a better future for the breed. Such breeders need all our support.

Maggie

Mindysmom
24th March 2011, 11:26 AM
Bet are you suggesting that puppy farm dogs are in fact healthier than dogs bred by ethical breeders? That's certainly an interesting perspective.

Oreo
24th March 2011, 02:38 PM
Bet are you suggesting that puppy farm dogs are in fact healthier than dogs bred by ethical breeders? That's certainly an interesting perspective.

I've not read the suggestion that Bet is making this way . . . but I'm sure she'll reply.

What commercially bred dogs from outlier pedigrees MIGHT have are alleles/genes that have been lost in the show stock lines, that might be beneficial to the Cavalier breed.

Bet, I understand that in different breeds that are challenged for heterozygosity (variation) on the MHC, there are very experienced and expert breeders that have gone down the route of scouring commercial kennels for outlier pedigrees so that they can test and bring some of these dogs back in for their advantageous rare haplotypes.

I believe the difference is that they know what they are testing for and are doing haplotype testing on dogs and seeing immediate feed back.

I don't believe that Cavalier breeders/researchers are yet in the position to know what they'd be testing for to go this route. I do think it is one that would be smart to work toward if individual MVD or SM genes prove to be evasive.

I would put forward the idea that those with male Cavaliers from outlier pedigrees that are already purchased might want to consider keeping those boys intact if they see themselves as capable of managing an intact male . . . or as Margaret has suggested, storing semen before neutering.

When testing does come available (for MVD and SM) there might be pleasant surprises amongst a small number, albeit, by odds, most will have at least some problematic alleles . . . but then all dogs do and the work of the breeder is to go forward mitigating these risks as best as possible.

As a pet owner that would be something I'd be very willing to do.

Oreo

Bet
24th March 2011, 05:58 PM
I've not read the suggestion that Bet is making this way . . . but I'm sure she'll reply.

What commercially bred dogs from outlier pedigrees MIGHT have are alleles/genes that have been lost in the show stock lines, that might be beneficial to the Cavalier breed.

Bet, I understand that in different breeds that are challenged for heterozygosity (variation) on the MHC, there are very experienced and expert breeders that have gone down the route of scouring commercial kennels for outlier pedigrees so that they can test and bring some of these dogs back in for their advantageous rare haplotypes.

I believe the difference is that they know what they are testing for and are doing haplotype testing on dogs and seeing immediate feed back.

I don't believe that Cavalier breeders/researchers are yet in the position to know what they'd be testing for to go this route. I do think it is one that would be smart to work toward if individual MVD or SM genes prove to be evasive.

I would put forward the idea that those with male Cavaliers from outlier pedigrees that are already purchased might want to consider keeping those boys intact if they see themselves as capable of managing an intact male . . . or as Margaret has suggested, storing semen before neutering.

When testing does come available (for MVD and SM) there might be pleasant surprises amongst a small number, albeit, by odds, most will have at least some problematic alleles . . . but then all dogs do and the work of the breeder is to go forward mitigating these risks as best as possible.

As a pet owner that would be something I'd be very willing to do.

Oreo


WHERE WILL THE FRESH GENES FOR CAVALIERS COME FROM?

No ,Mindysmom, I am not suggesting that Cavaliers from Puppy Farms and BYB's are Healthier than those Bred by Ethical Breeders .

Yes Oreo, what you are saying is making a lot of sense, if only the Genes for SM and MVD could be found , but that seems to be such a Long way off.

What the Problem is at the Moment for the Cavalier Breed ,is that Time is not on the Side of our Breed waiting for those Genes to be being found.

So what can be being done?

If Cavaliers can be found out -with the Show Scene and do not have SM or MVD ,then are those Cavaliers not the best to be used in Breeding Programs.

What does it matter if their Off-Springs have no chance of Winning in the Show Ring, the Priority for our Cavaliers is to try and give them the Chance of Healthier ,Longer Lives.

In this week's DOG WORLD there is mention of wanting a Breed of Dog to be De- Registered by the Kennel Club because of the Health Problems in that Particular Breed.

I am not saying this could ever happen to our Cavalier Breed ,but it has been mentioned on this List that the Kennel Club could be Considering Out- Crossing Cavaliers with another Breed.

They must be taking the Plight of our Cavaliers seriously ,to be even considering this.

Bet

Mindysmom
25th March 2011, 11:32 AM
Thanks for clarifying.

sins
25th March 2011, 11:46 AM
I understand that in different breeds that are challenged for heterozygosity (variation) on the MHC, there are very experienced and expert breeders that have gone down the route of scouring commercial kennels for outlier pedigrees so that they can test and bring some of these dogs back in for their advantageous rare haplotypes.


I have a copy of a Finnish report on bearded collies saved somewhere on my home PC.I'll dig it up later,but it makes interesting reading about the effects of the loss of heterozygosity on the MHC.

Sins

Bet
25th March 2011, 03:56 PM
It is very possible that there are still some very "good" genes in the UK show population. We don't actually know unless many more breeders are willing to submit their animals for rescanning when they are older (and this information is published, and available to the EBV). Such a shame they don't take more advantage of funding as this can often be done for FREE with Ruperts Fund, or with the CKCS Club donation.

The EBV will help us to utilise these "good genes" to best advantage when they have been identified.

Its not very nice to risk coming away from another MRI scan without the 'A' that you had for your dog. It also puts you in a difficult position as regards the puppies that have been produced, or sold, in "good faith". But it is the best that can be done do to help the breed's future.

Breeders must not feel ashamed as well as disappointed, but feel positive they are working together towards a better future for the breed. Such breeders need all our support.

Maggie



WHERE WILL THE FRESH GENES GENES FOR CAVALIERS COME FROM ?


Steve Dean who writes a Veterinary Article weekly in Dog World, has just been challenged in this week's DOG WORLD to comment on the current State of Affairs in the Cavalier Breed.

What are his Views as to whether the the Proposed BVA Scheme is Acceptible and whether it should go Forward.

Also what are his Views about the BVA Scheme Results being Puplishedin the Kennel Club's Breed Record Supplement,which is mentioned to him ,that is the Norm for all other Existing BVA Schemes,or is the CavalierSituation some-how Different.

It is mentioned by the Writer to Steve Dean ,that it would seem that so far the the Animal Health Trust can bring the Horse to Water but cannot make it Drink

The Writer further says that Steve Dean is Familiar with the Issues having written about SM in the Cavalier Breed in DOG WORLD,that since the Health Preservation of the Cavalier Breed is the True Goal of all Concerned ,he is asked to Share his Opinion Forward with what is known to-day in Terms of Genetics and Phenotype Testing available for Cavaliers

I sure await his reply with interest.

Bet

Oreo
25th March 2011, 04:21 PM
I have a copy of a Finnish report on bearded collies saved somewhere on my home PC.I'll dig it up later,but it makes interesting reading about the effects of the loss of heterozygosity on the MHC.

Sins

If anyone cares for a layman's description of MHC and what it is all about, there are two entertaining blog posts about the topic at the Desert Windhounds blog.

(I always walk away from the first blog with this sentences repeating through my brain - "Hey, look at this! You know what this is! Killitkillitkillit!").

http://desertwindhounds.blogspot.com/2010/11/closed-registries-dogs-in-handbasket-to.html

http://desertwindhounds.blogspot.com/2010/12/closed-registries-dogs-in-handbasket-to.html

Oreo

Zumie05
25th March 2011, 04:35 PM
Why not out cross? This way is similar to using dogs from mills and BYBs, except that we would be able to select other dogs that were bred with good intentions rather than to make a buck.

denali
7th May 2011, 12:00 PM
Cavaliers were originally from english spaniels and something else that i can't quite remember now!
but if someone strats of again with that and eventually produces something that looks like a cav, then you can just out cross with that.

I am not sure if you mentioned SM as a major breed problem, but hewre in Australia, so far we don't have any confirmed cases of SM in show dogs. However there is a dog undergoing MRI's now as SM is suspected.

MVD is still a huge problem here, so i think someone needs to figure out what to out cross the dogs with.

Karlin
7th May 2011, 10:46 PM
I know that there have been many cases of SM within show dogs in Australia, actually (it would be virtually impossible for there not to be) -- I am familiar with some breeders there who have spoken of cases, and also know there are cases within pet cavaliers bred by show breeders. There was a scanning programme in Australia with many cavalier show breeders participating, where the rate of affectedness (dogs with syrinxes, of around breeding age) mirrored what has been seen elsewhere, at least a third had syrinxes. There was some discussion of this on breeder discussion boards as well as here, in the past. A show breeder in Australia posted the information from the scanning survey. MVD is endemic in the breed worldwide as well.

King Charles spaniels also have SM, MVD plus a high rate of hydrocephalus and a far tinier and more inbred genepool than cavaliers, so as many geneticists/researchers have said, it more likely would be better healthwise to work to breed away from health issues like MVD and SM by having breeders follow health protocols within the current cavalier breed and use the new gene tests for EFS and Dry eye/curly coat syndrome rather than try to reconstruct cavaliers again from the very diminished remaining genepool of King Charles spaniels (English toys). Other breeds probably in the mix were papillons, springer spaniels (in some lines), cockers... maybe others.

Bet
8th May 2011, 12:38 PM
I know that there have been many cases of SM within show dogs in Australia, actually (it would be virtually impossible for there not to be) -- I am familiar with some breeders there who have spoken of cases, and also know there are cases within pet cavaliers bred by show breeders. There was a scanning programme in Australia with many cavalier show breeders participating, where the rate of affectedness (dogs with syrinxes, of around breeding age) mirrored what has been seen elsewhere, at least a third had syrinxes. There was some discussion of this on breeder discussion boards as well as here, in the past. A show breeder in Australia posted the information from the scanning survey. MVD is endemic in the breed worldwide as well.

King Charles spaniels also have SM, MVD plus a high rate of hydrocephalus and a far tinier and more inbred genepool than cavaliers, so as many geneticists/researchers have said, it more likely would be better healthwise to work to breed away from health issues like MVD and SM by having breeders follow health protocols within the current cavalier breed and use the new gene tests for EFS and Dry eye/curly coat syndrome rather than try to reconstruct cavaliers again from the very diminished remaining genepool of King Charles spaniels (English toys). Other breeds probably in the mix were papillons, springer spaniels (in some lines), cockers... maybe others.


WHERE WILL THE FRESH GENES FOR CAVALIERS COME FROM?


As Karlin has said it would be better for Cavaliers if Cavalier Breeders were to Breed away from SM and MVD.

This can only be done by the Pet Buying Cavalier Public being told about those Two Serious Diseases Afflicting our Cavalier Breed ,and giving Cavaliers a Wide Berth at the Moment,until all Cavalier Breeders ,not just the Few who are doing this, accept that the Breeding Guidelines are being carried out.

DO NOT BREED FROM A CAVALIER BEFORE 2.5 YEARS OF AGE and DOES NOT HAVE MVD OR SM, and TO KNOW THE STATUS OF THE PARENTS at 5.

Don't listen to what is being said by some of the Cavalier Breeders ,that those Breeding Guidelines are just that .Guidelines for Breeding.

THEY ARE NOT AS HAS BEEN SAID BY MANY OF THE CAVALIER RESEARCHERS INTO THEIR SM AND MVD PROBLEMS.

THEY ARE TO TRY AND DELAY THE EARLY ON -SET OF BOTH SM AND MVD.

The Cavaliers are the only Toy Breed to have such an Early On-Set of the Type of MVD that they Suffer from.

It is now up to the Cavalier Buying Public to understand how Many Cavaliers are suffering from SM and MVD and not to encourage those Cavalier Breeders who won't follow the Breeding Guideline Instructions inorder to try and Delay the Early On-Set of SM and MVD.

Bet

sins
8th May 2011, 02:43 PM
This can only be done by the Pet Buying Cavalier Public being told about those Two Serious Diseases Afflicting our Cavalier Breed ,and giving Cavaliers a Wide Berth at the Moment,until all Cavalier Breeders ,not just the Few who are doing this, accept that the Breeding Guidelines are being carried out.


On the contrary,if any member of the pet buying public is offered a puppy from one of the few breeders who test for everything and follow the guidelines..
Grab it with both hands....:p
Instead of giving cavaliers a wide berth,we need to support breeders who sell puppies from health tested parents as there are the ones who support research,plough their money from puppy sales back into breeding for health and just might strengthen the breed for future generations.
I'd much rather a loving cavalier puppy in my basket,than a head full of well meaning but misguided principles.
Sins

Bet
8th May 2011, 06:39 PM
On the contrary,if any member of the pet buying public is offered a puppy from one of the few breeders who test for everything and follow the guidelines..
Grab it with both hands....:p
Instead of giving cavaliers a wide berth,we need to support breeders who sell puppies from health tested parents as there are the ones who support research,plough their money from puppy sales back into breeding for health and just might strengthen the breed for future generations.
I'd much rather a loving cavalier puppy in my basket,than a head full of well meaning but misguided principles.
Sins




WHERE WILL THE FRESH GENES FOR CAVALIERS COME FROM?


If the UK CKCS CLUB won't put on their Web Site Cavalier Puppies that are available for sale from Health Tested Parents and are giving so little information on their cavalierhealth.co.uk website about the SM and MVD Problems in our Cavalier Breed,they just seem to want to keep the Cavalier Buying Public in the Dark about about the Health Problems in the Cavalier Breed.

As an example of this is the Article Posted Two Days ago by the Secretary of the CKCS HEALTH LIAISON COMMITTEE,which claimed that SM is a Smear Campaign against the Cavalier Breed,and disputing the SM Figures.

How will the Cavalier Buying Public ever find out about the Cavaliers' Health Problems,and be able to make up their own minds as to whether to buy a Cavalier or not ,which could involve spending quite a lot of Money on the cost of Medications for either of those Two Serious Diseases.

Bet

Davecav
8th May 2011, 07:21 PM
Bet


I have just tried to access the cavalierhealth website that you mention, but all I get is a front page and nothing else, so maybe it is being updated?

However - The official Cavalier Club Website that I look at - has loads of information on health MVD, SM, how to find a puppy and what to look for when buying a puppy.


As I have repeated - there is a Puppy Register representative that potential buyers can telephone to find out about available puppies and can ask whether their parents have been tested etc. (It is then up to the buyer to check all certificates) There is a list of Regional Puppy register representatives - again with telephone numbers that can be rung, and advice given to puppy buyers.

Margaret Carter on this Forum has a list of breeders that health test their dogs. I believe she also has a website. But as far as I know she doesn't put a list of available pups on the website for all to see. - So why do you condem the Cavalier Club for not doing so?? But I am sure that anyone who takes the time to telephone either the Cavalier Club reproesentatives or Margaret Carter will be given lots of information and help.

On the Cavalier Club website there is a list of Cavaliers over 5yrs old and Heart tested. There is a very comprehensive list of Cavaliers that have been MRI tested.

There is information about the SM Cavalier Collection scheme for anyone who has had a dog that has passed away and feels they are able to donate their cavalier for further research.
There is the Foetal Tissue research scheme for stillborm whelps, young pups, and now older dogs that have pased away and again their owners are willing to donate them

There is the funded MRI scheme for over 6yr olds.

There are numerous health days so that dogs can be heart and eye tested at reduced costs or free for hearts (in most cases)

Bet, please stop this vendetta against people who are trying to get the message across, just because you don't seem to like them.

It really isn't healthy.

anniemac
8th May 2011, 08:03 PM
I agree with sins and davecav. Actually the uk site has a lot of information. it was very simple for me to pull a list of breeders who scan on the website where it even listed the ones in the usa. I could see several names there, which I knew they at least were making efforts. I would still use the tools and find the right breeder for me.

If you have a list of cavalier puppies available or even recommending breeders on a public site, you could run into people counting on that alone and not doing the other things. A lot of sites stear away from this and its more helpful to give tools on how to find a breeder and getting to know people to give one advice. Even people who know about conditions, still will ignore them. Easier is better but to what point where the pet buyers just count on simple list? What davecav says seems like the best option. There will be pet buyers who do their homework and take time, then also ones who don't.

Even now, I have a good friend knowing what ella went through sending me an email of puppies available! So some people just don't get it or care. Unfortunately, I think the pet buyers who have owned a cavalier or other breed will do more research.



Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Bet
9th May 2011, 09:39 AM
Bet


I have just tried to access the cavalierhealth website that you mention, but all I get is a front page and nothing else, so maybe it is being updated?

However - The official Cavalier Club Website that I look at - has loads of information on health MVD, SM, how to find a puppy and what to look for when buying a puppy.


As I have repeated - there is a Puppy Register representative that potential buyers can telephone to find out about available puppies and can ask whether their parents have been tested etc. (It is then up to the buyer to check all certificates) There is a list of Regional Puppy register representatives - again with telephone numbers that can be rung, and advice given to puppy buyers.

Margaret Carter on this Forum has a list of breeders that health test their dogs. I believe she also has a website. But as far as I know she doesn't put a list of available pups on the website for all to see. - So why do you condem the Cavalier Club for not doing so?? But I am sure that anyone who takes the time to telephone either the Cavalier Club reproesentatives or Margaret Carter will be given lots of information and help.

On the Cavalier Club website there is a list of Cavaliers over 5yrs old and Heart tested. There is a very comprehensive list of Cavaliers that have been MRI tested.

There is information about the SM Cavalier Collection scheme for anyone who has had a dog that has passed away and feels they are able to donate their cavalier for further research.
There is the Foetal Tissue research scheme for stillborm whelps, young pups, and now older dogs that have pased away and again their owners are willing to donate them

There is the funded MRI scheme for over 6yr olds.

There are numerous health days so that dogs can be heart and eye tested at reduced costs or free for hearts (in most cases)

Bet, please stop this vendetta against people who are trying to get the message across, just because you don't seem to like them.

It really isn't healthy.


WHERE WILL THE FRESH GENES FOR CAVALIERS COME FROM?


Davecav,

This is the $64,000 Question, why won't the UK CKCS CLUB and the Health Committee put on their Web Sites, the Results of the Cavalier Breeders who have MRI 'd their Cavaliers , who have Heart Tested their Cavaliers before being Mated and have no Heart Trouble,and most importantly ,have not Bred from Cavaliers before they were 2.5 Years of age and have known the Health Status of their Parents at 5 as is recommended by the Researchers into SM and MVD in Cavaliers with the Breeding Guidelines.

These Breeding Guidelines are hopefully to try and Stave Off the Early On-Set of both the SM and MVD Diseases which are Afflicting our Cavalier Breed.

I would think the Cavalier Club falls short of what should be being done to be trying to give Cavaliers the Chance of Healthier, Longer Lives.

Bet

Bet
10th May 2011, 10:17 AM
WHERE WILL THE FRESH GENES FOR CAVALIERS COME FROM?


Davecav,

This is the $64,000 Question, why won't the UK CKCS CLUB and the Health Committee put on their Web Sites, the Results of the Cavalier Breeders who have MRI 'd their Cavaliers , who have Heart Tested their Cavaliers before being Mated and have no Heart Trouble,and most importantly ,have not Bred from Cavaliers before they were 2.5 Years of age and have known the Health Status of their Parents at 5 as is recommended by the Researchers into SM and MVD in Cavaliers with the Breeding Guidelines.

These Breeding Guidelines are hopefully to try and Stave Off the Early On-Set of both the SM and MVD Diseases which are Afflicting our Cavalier Breed.

I would think the Cavalier Club falls short of what should be being done to be trying to give Cavaliers the Chance of Healthier, Longer Lives.

Bet


WHERE WILL THE FRESH GENES FOR CAVALIERS COME FROM?


I have just noticed a WEB SITE

www.dogbreedhealth.com

It gives a comprehensive list of many Dog Breeds including our Cavalier Breed.


What interested me so much was the Section which was called

A GOOD BREED CLUB

If I could mention some relevant Parts from it.

A Breed Club should see itself as the Guardian of it's Breed for Future Generations .

It should be run by a Committee whose Priority is the Health and Welfare of the Dogs and who themselves are Role Models for Ethical Breeding

A Club's Committee should the Authority to first warn in Writing and then if necessary Expel a Member for breaking those Rules.

There should be an OPEN HEALTH REGISTRY ON THE CLUB'S WEB SITE SO THAT ALL BREEDERS KNOW WHICH DOGS ( MAY I SUBSTITUTE THE NAME CAVALIERS) IN HERE,WHO ARE OR HAVE BEEN AFFECTED BY A GENETIC DISEASE

RESULTS OF HEALTH SCREENING SHOULD ALSO BE OPENLY DISPLAYED ON THE (CAVALIERS') CLUB'S WEBSITE

There are other interesting comments in WHAT MAKES A GOOD BREED CLUB.

I think that the UK CKCS CLUB'S Actions in what has been said in this Article ,leave a lot to be desired .


Bet

EmmaP
10th May 2011, 01:13 PM
I haven't put anything on here for a little while but have been reading all the comments and cant understand why some people are so horrible about breeders. Wheni went to buy Charlie i didn't know anything about the different illnesses that cavs can have. Charlies breeder told me all about everything and gave me copies of all the tests that both his parents have had. His Mom and Dad are both over five and have had all the tests. She said that most of her freinds do everything they can to breed healthy dogs and seems very cross by some of the things i told her. I know there are bad breeders in Wales which is why i came to England to get a puppy. I thought i could learn a lot from here but often all i see are nasty comments except from davecav and anne. I think they are very fair in what they say.

Margaret C
10th May 2011, 07:13 PM
I haven't put anything on here for a little while but have been reading all the comments and cant understand why some people are so horrible about breeders. Wheni went to buy Charlie i didn't know anything about the different illnesses that cavs can have. Charlies breeder told me all about everything and gave me copies of all the tests that both his parents have had. His Mom and Dad are both over five and have had all the tests. She said that most of her freinds do everything they can to breed healthy dogs and seems very cross by some of the things i told her. I know there are bad breeders in Wales which is why i came to England to get a puppy. I thought i could learn a lot from here but often all i see are nasty comments except from davecav and anne. I think they are very fair in what they say.

I'm sorry you feel so angry and indignant about comments here but not all breeders health test, including some of those that hold influential positions on the cavalier breed clubs, and that is why there is so much criticism.

It sounds as if you were lucky to be directed to a breeder that is really responsible and that is what every buyer, and every puppy, deserves.

Unfortunately still more than half of all litters of cavaliers registered with the Kennel Club are born with one of the parents younger than two and a half years old. That is not responsible breeding because it allows inherited diseases to spread through the breed.

If your breeder showed you copies of heart, eye, and MRI certificates for both Charlie's parents, then you know she did everything possible to give your puppy the best chance possible of leading a long and healthy life. She is to be admired.

Careful breeding like this is what all puppies and their owners deserve, and that is why I continue to comment on those breeders that do not do everything they should for the puppies they breed.

mommytoClaire
10th May 2011, 11:57 PM
Emma, I'm sorry you feel this way. You have to remember that when you have the amount of people that are present here at a forum, you will always have different opinions. And you are talking about people who are VERY passionate about the Cavalier Breed, and have spent many years raising dogs that have the long list of disorders this breed, unfortunately has.

Many here have taken in rescues and dogs with disorders, ALL for the love of the breed. And any subject approached on their health is only done because so many care so very deeply.

I am grateful that I can come here and gain an education, and converse with others who have been where I am in raising a Cavalier.

If only we lived in a perfect world eh?

Bet
11th May 2011, 09:42 AM
Emma, I'm sorry you feel this way. You have to remember that when you have the amount of people that are present here at a forum, you will always have different opinions. And you are talking about people who are VERY passionate about the Cavalier Breed, and have spent many years raising dogs that have the long list of disorders this breed, unfortunately has.

Many here have taken in rescues and dogs with disorders, ALL for the love of the breed. And any subject approached on their health is only done because so many care so very deeply.

I am grateful that I can come here and gain an education, and converse with others who have been where I am in raising a Cavalier.

If only we lived in a perfect world eh?



WHERE WILL THE FRESH GENES FOR CAVALIERS COME FROM ?


Emma,

I was also dismayed to read your Post, but when you Care about some-thing ,such as the Two Serious Health Problems in our Cavalier Breed ,SM and MVD you want to Improve it.

I have been involved in this for over 20 years with the Cavaliers MVD Problem ,the Cavalier Breeders were warned in 1983, YES 1983, by Dr P.Darke ,the UK CKCS CLUB'S Cardiologist , who had carried out Surveys on Cavaliers Hearts at Cavalier Shows at that time ,and warned the CKCS CLUB about how wide-spread the MVD Problem was in the Cavalier Breed,as a Result of his Warning the CKCS Club issued Breeding Guidelines in 1987.

Now the Researchers are adding to those Breeding Guidelines to try and Stop the Early ON-Set of both SM and MVD not to Breed from a Cavalier before 2.5 years and know the Health Status of the Parents at 5.

As is seen in Kennel Club Cavalier Breed Supplement ,this is not being followed by some who are Holding Positions on the CKCS CLUB.

You have been so lucky to have discovered a Cavalier Breeder who is doing this.

At least you have bought a Cavalier from a Breeder who is trying her best to give our Beloved Cavaliers the Chance of a Future.

Bet

anniemac
12th May 2011, 05:19 PM
I was talking to a breeder about finding an A male etc. For future that matches etc. Great right? Well I asked if she has OFA and is on the CHIC database, may do in future but it is not required etc.

Here's my problem, sm and mvd definately are two top conditions but once you dig deeper, there are other things like eye certificates and I would ask for a chic certificate (whatever ellas parents had showing hips, heart, eyes (I think patellas?) So what one would see as recommended might differ. So focusing to me on certain issues you have to factor in all. I am not buying a puppy today but I'm definately learning. I might be more focused on a breeder with an A to A mating because of ella, but I don't know. I may want the whole package actually I know I will.

I did learn its not as simple as finding an A. I learned a lot and they need ones that match features. Wow, breeding is a hard thing, but because of the answer this breeder friend gave me, I would look elsewhere. I've heard too many times not a problem they have seen. those that go above that I admire.

Karlin
12th May 2011, 06:00 PM
Anyone can rejoice, who has found a breeder who can produce:


*a good MRI scan -- this could be an A or a D given the context of the mating (if D, the dog should have other excellent health-oriented qualities and can only be bred to an A). A dog with symptoms who is graded an A and at some point starts to show symptoms is never suitable for breeding for obvious reasons (pain!!) -- if on rescanning there is still no syrinx, most likely the dog has painful CM (which is rare) or some other cause of pain -- and no one but an uncaring idiot would breed a painful dog (so am not sure why this is seen as 'an issue' by some breeders :rolleyes: -- pain is pain, whatever the source, and immediately excludes the dog from a breeding programme)

* a cardiologist's auscultation for a clear heart from within a year of breeding their dog (a vet's OK or a 'clear heart' is worthless in the context of breeding; studies show they miss half of all early onset murmurs which are the important ones to identify in breeding dogs! Any breeder with half a brain knows this, and the ONLY reason for using a vet is to hope that 50% of the time you will get an 'answer' you want, even if your dog is NOT heart clear, letting the breeder tell buyers they have a 'clear' cavalier :x)

* a (newly available) DNA test showing each parent dog is clear for carrying Episodic Falling Syndrome and the exceptionally hideous and painful health issue, Dry Eye/Curly Coat Syndrome (which is NOT the same as a dog having dry eye alone; a generally common and easily treated eye issue)

* the above as a minimum; on top of that, this is a breed with significant levels of hip dysplasia, luxating patella and eye issues and a responsible breeder will have tested eyes, knees and hips as well, regardless of whether they have personally seen it in their dogs.

* buyers might also consider going with breeders who DNA profile the adults and puppy for identification so you KNOW you are getting the offspring of the pair you have been told. Many breeders now do this in the US. The information is indicated on AKC registration certs. The IKC in Ireland has considered making DNA profiling mandatory in the future.


Breeders regularly tell buyers they don't do this or that test, including cardiologist auscultations and MRI scanning, because 'none of my dogs has ever had this problem'. The likelihood that any breeder could ever have bred cavaliers without knowing full well they have produced MVD, eye problems and bad patellas is virtually impossible. If they think they do not produce HD, it is probably because they don't hip score. Every breeder -- unless they totally beat the very high odds -- will own breeding dogs that eventually have MVD (an almost certainty for every cavalier), and SM (close to a 3 to 1 chance over the dog's lifetime).

In rescue dogs, I have seen MVD (in most dogs over 5), SM (I have had some go confirmed symptomatic over time, and always informed every adopter of the issue, though rescues cannot afford to MRI), epilepsy, EFS, luxating patellas, poor hips, dry eye (regularly). No one should offer a home to a cavalier without being aware of these issues and ready to give a lifetime commitment if a dog does develop any of these issues. No one should give money to a breeder for a puppy who does not responsibly test. Unfortunately many breeders (especially on websites!) claim 'I test' but only a little researching -- like asking for the certs -- shows what they mean is, their vet has given their dogs a clean bill of health. For almost every serious widespread issue in the breed, this is a meaningless statement and breeders know this.

When, as has happened in the UK, executive club committees refuse to commit to abide by the basic breeding health recommendations of their own club, how can anyone believe that any significant number properly test -- when surely setting such a public example would be an admirable stance, much less a badly needed one at this time when the breed is facing possible extinction (which the Kennel Club has clearly recognised, as it is considering an outcrossing programme, the last resort for a breed!).

anniemac
12th May 2011, 08:30 PM
[QUOTE=Karlin;389311]Anyone can rejoice, who has found a breeder who can produce:

* a (newly available) DNA test showing each parent dog is clear for carrying Episodic Falling Syndrome and the exceptionally hideous and painful health issue, Dry Eye/Curly Coat Syndrome (which is NOT the same as a dog having dry eye alone; a generally common and easily treated eye issue)

* the above as a minimum; on top of that, this is a breed with significant levels of hip dysplasia, luxating patella and eye issues and a responsible breeder will have tested eyes, knees and hips as well, regardless of whether they have personally seen it in their dogs.

QUOTE]

I have the question of CERF certificates in my head for eyes. The DNA test would solve the dry eye but to me I would actually put that as a minimum. I don't know why maybe because the EF/Dry Eye Curly coat DNA test is so new to me, but I forget it. All I know, is puppy buying process takes time. I'm not saying I am buying or even getting a rescue right now, but it does take time

anniemac
12th May 2011, 08:45 PM
Sorry I forgot Dry Eye is a seperate condition than Dry Eye/curly coat.

Bet
13th May 2011, 11:29 AM
Sorry I forgot Dry Eye is a seperate condition than Dry Eye/curly coat.


WHERE WILL THE FRESH GENES FOR CAVALIERS COME FROM?

Could I mention the Powerful Article in the June Edition of DOGS TODAY from Jemima Harrison where she mentions that the Cavalier Breed is in a Genetic Cul-de Sac.

Amongst other things she mentioned was that Breed Clubs are too often Dominated by Show Breeders who look down on on Pet Owners and who are in Competion with each other .

This is bad News for Transparency ,Team Spirit and Ultimately the Dogs

May I mention our Cavalier Breed again , that she mentioned Breed Campaigners need to be Embraced as having a Useful Perspective rather than seen as the Enemy.

I can sure Vouch for That!!!!

She goes onto say that that Breed Clubs need to be at the Fore-Front of Data Gatering - encouraging the Reporting of Health Problems ( if I could add here , not Posting the Article on another Cavalier Forum by the CKCS Health Liaison Secretary which said the mentioning the SM Problem in Cavaliers was a Smear Campaign against the Cavalier Breed) also the running Properly designed Health Surveys ,and PUPLISHING OPEN DATA BASES ,both HEALTH and PEDIGREE INFORMATION which is Accessible for all,because Breed Clubs are often run by People who have a Vested Interest in Playing Down the Health Problems ,has this been evident ,in some Cavalier Show Breeders trying to With-hold the Publication of the MRI Scanning Results from being Published in the Kennel Club's Cavalier Breed Supplement.

Finally Jemima Harrison concludes in her Article no Puppy Buyer should have to suffer the Embarrassment who find it difficult to ask the Breeder about the Health of Problems in the Breed .

If I also may include my thoughts about this , how much easier it would be for a Prospective Cavalier Buyer ,if the information was given on the CKCS WEB SITE of Cavaliers available for sale from the Cavalier Breeder who had a Certificate to Prove that they had Health Tested and followed the Breeding Guide -lines to try and delay the Early Onset of the SM and MVD Problems in Cavaliers.


Bet

Bet
15th May 2011, 10:26 AM
WHERE WILL THE FRESH GENES FOR CAVALIERS COME FROM?

Could I mention the Powerful Article in the June Edition of DOGS TODAY from Jemima Harrison where she mentions that the Cavalier Breed is in a Genetic Cul-de Sac.

Amongst other things she mentioned was that Breed Clubs are too often Dominated by Show Breeders who look down on on Pet Owners and who are in Competion with each other .

This is bad News for Transparency ,Team Spirit and Ultimately the Dogs

May I mention our Cavalier Breed again , that she mentioned Breed Campaigners need to be Embraced as having a Useful Perspective rather than seen as the Enemy.

I can sure Vouch for That!!!!

She goes onto say that that Breed Clubs need to be at the Fore-Front of Data Gatering - encouraging the Reporting of Health Problems ( if I could add here , not Posting the Article on another Cavalier Forum by the CKCS Health Liaison Secretary which said the mentioning the SM Problem in Cavaliers was a Smear Campaign against the Cavalier Breed) also the running Properly designed Health Surveys ,and PUPLISHING OPEN DATA BASES ,both HEALTH and PEDIGREE INFORMATION which is Accessible for all,because Breed Clubs are often run by People who have a Vested Interest in Playing Down the Health Problems ,has this been evident ,in some Cavalier Show Breeders trying to With-hold the Publication of the MRI Scanning Results from being Published in the Kennel Club's Cavalier Breed Supplement.

Finally Jemima Harrison concludes in her Article no Puppy Buyer should have to suffer the Embarrassment who find it difficult to ask the Breeder about the Health of Problems in the Breed .

If I also may include my thoughts about this , how much easier it would be for a Prospective Cavalier Buyer ,if the information was given on the CKCS WEB SITE of Cavaliers available for sale from the Cavalier Breeder who had a Certificate to Prove that they had Health Tested and followed the Breeding Guide -lines to try and delay the Early Onset of the SM and MVD Problems in Cavaliers.


Bet


WHERE WILL THE FRESH GENES FOR CAVALIERS COME FROM?


I think I should begin this Post by saying ,as our Prime Minister recently said, Calm Down Dears , when I am going to mention about how the Cavalier Show Breeders could help in the problem of getting Fresh Genes into the Cavalier Breed in-order to give the Breed a chance of survival.

Once a Breed had been Established Stud Books were Closed.

This means that in order to Breed a Pure- Bred Cavalier you must only Breed from this Closed Gene Pool.

Further Selection and the Damage it caused was due to the Competitive Nature of Dog Showing , every-one trying to Breed from a Cavalier who had a Champion Cavalier (or Many) in it's Pedigree .

Certain Cavaliers which were greatly Admired were ,and still are over-used .

This is known as the POPULAR SIRE SYNDROME .

In this way the Cavaliers' Gene Pool becomes narrower and narrower ,unfortunately if a Popular Cavalier happens to carry Faulty or Disease Causing Genes (Gene Mutations)this will Spread far and Wide through-out the Cavalier Breed Population ,as we have now seen in the CM Problem in Cavalier ,that around 90 % have CM and 50% of Cavaliers 5-6 of age have a Heart Murmur

So what can Cavalier Show Breeders do about saving the Cavalier Breed ?

Use as many Cavalier Males and Females in a Breeding Program, this will mean bringing Fresh Genes from Cavaliers who are not Winning in the Show Scene ,may I even say , Cavaliers from Puppy Farms and BYB'S who do not have SM or MVD at 2.5 years of age.

Do not Mate Cavaliers any Closer that Cousin to Cousin, as Professor Sir P.Bateson said in his Recent Report ,Grand-Father to Grand- Daughter and Grand-Mother to Grand-Son are Incestious Matings, there will hardly be a Cavalier who has not had this type of Mating in their Back-ground

Analysing Cavalier Pedigrees for any Mating and AVOIDING the same CAVALIER Appearing on both sides of the Pedigree

Keep at least TWO Cavaliers from each Litter for Future Breeding rather than just ,One ,the Best One.

If the Show Cavalier Breeders would now accept that this the only way to stop the Cavaliers from becoming an Extinct Breed and Breed along these lines, the Risk of Genetic Diseases in our Cavaliers would become much Lower.


Bet