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The facts about the health problems in cavaliers.

B

Bet

Well-known member
We all know that the Cavalier Breed is struggling to Survive at the Moment because of mainly their SM and MVD Health Problems.

The Future of a Breed is not about how many Diseases the Breed has ,but the Severity and their Frequency within the Population .

We know the MVD Figures as given by the Researchers ,that 50% of Cavaliers of Cavaliers have a Heart Murmur at 5-6 Years of Age , and this is no better than it was 18 years ago.

That over 90% of Cavaliers have CM .

Also 85 Whelps who were Researched All had CM.

The Problem for our Cavaliers could be, that there are maybe Too Few Clear Cavaliers to Breed from .

It has to be remembered that Genetic Carriers identified by DNA Testing ,should be being kept IN the Cavaliers' Breeding Programs ,Initally to keep Genectic Diversity as High as Possible .

This means that Cavalier Carriers who are Clear of SM and MVD can be Mated to other Cavalier Carriers who are also Clear , these Matings will only Produce Off-Springs who don't have SM or MVD or the Cavalier Puppies will be Carriers but won't have SM or MVD.

The Big Problem for the Cavalier Breed ,this information is only for the Cavaliers if SM and MVD is Identified with a Single Gene Recessive Mutation.

The Draw-Back for our Cavaliers ' SM and MVD Health Problems to Over-Come,that they, as far as I am aware ,both those those Diseases can only be Assessed by Phenotypic Screening Tests ,and that even a Good Result is NO GUARANTEE that the Sires and Dams are not going to Produce Affected Cavalier Puppies.

I know that MVD Cardiologists who are Researching the MVD Problem in our Cavaliers are saying that it is Very Likely that there are Many Cavalier Carriers of the MVD Genes.

Because it is known that over 90% of Cavaliers have CM ,there cannot be many Cavaliers who are not Carriers of the CM Genes.

To complicate the our Cavalier Breeds' SM and MVD Problem further ,we don't even know yet ,how SM, CM and MVD is Inherited.

Bet
 
Bet said:
We all know that the Cavalier Breed is struggling to Survive at the Moment because of mainly their SM and MVD Health Problems.

The Future of a Breed is not about how many Diseases the Breed has ,but the Severity and their Frequency within the Population .

We know the MVD Figures as given by the Researchers ,that 50% of Cavaliers of Cavaliers have a Heart Murmur at 5-6 Years of Age , and this is no better than it was 18 years ago.

That over 90% of Cavaliers have CM .

Also 85 Whelps who were Researched All had CM.

The Problem for our Cavaliers could be, that there are maybe Too Few Clear Cavaliers to Breed from .

It has to be remembered that Genetic Carriers identified by DNA Testing ,should be being kept IN the Cavaliers' Breeding Programs ,Initally to keep Genectic Diversity as High as Possible .

This means that Cavalier Carriers who are Clear of SM and MVD can be Mated to other Cavalier Carriers who are also Clear , these Matings will only Produce Off-Springs who don't have SM or MVD or the Cavalier Puppies will be Carriers but won't have SM or MVD.

The Big Problem for the Cavalier Breed ,this information is only for the Cavaliers if SM and MVD is Identified with a Single Gene Recessive Mutation.

The Draw-Back for our Cavaliers ' SM and MVD Health Problems to Over-Come,that they, as far as I am aware ,both those those Diseases can only be Assessed by Phenotypic Screening Tests ,and that even a Good Result is NO GUARANTEE that the Sires and Dams are not going to Produce Affected Cavalier Puppies.

I know that MVD Cardiologists who are Researching the MVD Problem in our Cavaliers are saying that it is Very Likely that there are Many Cavalier Carriers of the MVD Genes.

Because it is known that over 90% of Cavaliers have CM ,there cannot be many Cavaliers who are not Carriers of the CM Genes.

To complicate the our Cavalier Breeds' SM and MVD Problem further ,we don't even know yet ,how SM, CM and MVD is Inherited.

Bet
Click to expand...


THE FACTS ABOUT THE HEALTH PROBLEMS IN CAVALIERS.


As a PS to my Previous Post ,I should also have mentioned that the CKCS CLUB'S CHAIR-PERSON , Sheena Maclaine ,has just said that at the CKCS CLUB'S Recent Heart Testing at the CLUB'S Championship SHOW,the CLUB'S CARDIOLOGIST, Simon Swift ,was disappointed to find that there were only Three Cavaliers over the age of 7 who were Murmur Free.

This information does not do much for the Future of our Cavalier Breed,since he said at the 2009 CLUB'S AGM that 50% of Cavaliers 5-6 years of age had Heart Murmurs.

Bet
 
Breaks my heart...

I do not understand how breeders do not get this. My sense is here in USA that some of the "best" breeders just do not want to believe these statistics....some because they do not want to go through the testing needed to breed. Others because they are in denial because they can't handle the pain of the truth. Or both....

I have shed many a tear knowing that someday in the future, someone may not have their own Gracie to love.
 
Bet said:
...I know that MVD Cardiologists who are Researching the MVD Problem in our Cavaliers are saying that it is Very Likely that there are Many Cavalier Carriers of the MVD Genes. ...
Click to expand...

This statement is not news. It has been discussed by researchers for over 15 years. I'd go so far as to say that since, statistically, nearly 100% of cavaliers develop MVD murmurs by their tenth birthdays, therefore, nearly 100% of cavaliers carry the genes causing MVD.
 
The facts about the health problems in cavaliers

RodRussell said:
This statement is not news. It has been discussed by researchers for over 15 years. I'd go so far as to say that since, statistically, nearly 100% of cavaliers develop MVD murmurs by their tenth birthdays, therefore, nearly 100% of cavaliers carry the genes causing MVD.
Click to expand...


THE FACTS ABOUT THE HEALTH PROBLEMS IN CAVALIERS.

So this could mean that here in Britain, if nearly 100% of Cavaliers statisically develope MVD Murmurs by 10 years of Age,that could be with the new Registration Figures from the Kennel Club of around 8,000 Registered yearly, 80,000 could have a Heart Murmur.

I have heard on the TV News Reports to-day , how so many Folk are concerned about what is happening in the UK,that they are having Money Problems, and are cutting back .

Because many Show Breeders of Cavaliers rely Placing most of their Cavalier Puppies in Pet Homes,will this shortage of Money influence the Buying of Cavaliers ,when many Prospective Buyers of Cavaliers now are aware about the SM and MVD Health Problems in our Cavaliers and what the cost of Medication this will Entail if their Cavalier should suffer from those Two Diseases.

Just Maybe PEOPLE POWER will focus many Cavalier Breeders' minds to be Health Testing their Cavalier Breeding Stock ,not that this will Guarantee that the Buyer of a Cavalier their Cavalier won't develope SM or MVD in the Future ,but they will know ,that if a Cavalier Breeder is Health Testing and following the Breeding Guidelines which are to try and delay the Early On-Set of those Two Conditions ,this Breeder is at least trying to give their Cavaliers the Chance of Healthier ,Longer Lives, and not to be having the Buyer of their Cavaliers the expense of the Medications required for SM and MVD , especially at this time when the Shortage Money is causing such a Problem.

Bet
 
Bet said:
THE FACTS ABOUT THE HEALTH PROBLEMS IN CAVALIERS.


As a PS to my Previous Post ,I should also have mentioned that the CKCS CLUB'S CHAIR-PERSON , Sheena Maclaine ,has just said that at the CKCS CLUB'S Recent Heart Testing at the CLUB'S Championship SHOW,the CLUB'S CARDIOLOGIST, Simon Swift ,was disappointed to find that there were only Three Cavaliers over the age of 7 who were Murmur Free.

Bet
Click to expand...

As a concerned pet owner whos has had an interest in early onset MVD for many years, I'd like to try to put the heart test results in perspective:

In 2011 164 Cavaliers were tested at the Club show and 138 (just over 84%) OF THESE WERE COMPLETELY CLEAR. Only 4 dogs age 4 or younger (3.6%) had murmurs and 3 of these were relatively mild (grade 1 or 2). 13 dogs tested were age 7 and over, and of these as Bet says only 3 (23%) were clear. However, we need to be aware that all body parts will start to wear out as they get older, and age related MVD is the most common form of heart disease in all older dogs (not just Cavaliers), so these results are to a certain extent to be expected - and if you look at the data presented on the UK Cavalier Club website (http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/health/hearts/reports/show11.html), you'll see that this is the trend with the results shown. The problem in Cavaliers is that they suffer from EARLY ONSET MVD - i.e. they tend to get murmurs sooner than later (in middle age - around five) - and this is what the breeding protocols (as Rod has mentioned in another post) aim to remedy, so I feel we should maybe be looking at the proportion of murmurs in younger Cavaliers from year to year to see whether any progress is being made. I'M IN NO WAY SUGGESTING THAT MVD IN OUR OLDER DOGS IS NOT ALSO CAUSE FOR CONCERN, just that it then becomes a fairly common age related problem.

Rosemary
 
I feel like Debra, my heart breaks about the prospects in this Breed. Such a wonderful loving, and beautiful dog.

So new to all this, are there any statistic that show that cross breeding helps to bring down the % of breed specific disorders? In other words, has this ever been achieved in other breeds of dogs, by cross breeding?
 
The facts about the health problem in cavaliers.

mommytoClaire said:
I feel like Debra, my heart breaks about the prospects in this Breed. Such a wonderful loving, and beautiful dog.

So new to all this, are there any statistic that show that cross breeding helps to bring down the % of breed specific disorders? In other words, has this ever been achieved in other breeds of dogs, by cross breeding?
Click to expand...

THE FACTS ABOUT THE HEALTH PROBLEM IN CAVALIERS .

As I said in my Previous Post, it is PEOPLE (CAVALIER )POWER who will decide whether the Cavalier has a Future or not.

At the Moment ,at least here in Britain ,there will be hardly any-body who can risk buying a Cavalier knowing the Health Problems in the Breed and what the cost of the Medications are,
because of the Money Problems many Folk are having.

Just yesterday a Family Bakers has now closed in Biggar , it's been in Business for around 100 years, even Tesco in Lanark is saying about how quiet it has become ,the Folk are thinking twice about going Shopping 2 or 3 times a week now, because of the Price of Petrol.

So I think that buying a Cavalier ,who can be Unhealthy and cost a lot for the Medications that could needed, will not be High on the Priority List for Many Folk.

Bet
 
mommytoClaire said:
I feel like Debra, my heart breaks about the prospects in this Breed. Such a wonderful loving, and beautiful dog.

So new to all this, are there any statistic that show that cross breeding helps to bring down the % of breed specific disorders? In other words, has this ever been achieved in other breeds of dogs, by cross breeding?
Click to expand...

I know what we do have, protocols, research and even a DNA test now for two of the breed specific conditions. Just look at Rod's website and I don't think there is any research or condition not there. This website and his, both have questions to ask and things to stay away from and whether or not we do that is something we have to take responsibilty for.

A lot of times people want something then or a quick fix and that is not going to happen. It may take years like Rod said in another thread for people to have that happen or even for someone to find the right breeder. I know we have to think about our choices no matter how tempting a puppy is. There was a 7 month old tri that needed transport this weekend and as tempting as that is when asked if I know anyone that wants a Cavalier, I know I would not be able to provide for any health conditions that happen. It doesn't matter if a rescue or from someone who did all the health testing in the world, it is a responsibilty that I can not take on at this moment.

Personally, I would not want a cross-breed thinking that would be a more healthy option because I know nothing about it. I don't know what anything about what problems that could lead. Whether or not that happens in the future will take time but until then, I think we are responsible for our own choices whether it is as a breeder or buyer and to accept those actions. If a breeder ignores testing for a condition and that affects the health of the puppies, then that is something they have to accept. If someone buys a puppy especially knowing the health conditions and protocols and ignores if the breeder does them, then that is their choice but they should be able to accept it.

I would not buy from a breeder whether cross breed or purebreed, that claimed that there are no problems because there are always no guarantees. I would want someone who would educate me and knew a lot about the breed. If I choose to buy from someone who has not scanned or breed an A to an A or whatever, then I would be the one to make that decision but I would still not claim that I didn't know.
 
dozyrosy said:
...maybe be looking at the proportion of murmurs in younger Cavaliers from year to year to see whether any progress is being made.
Click to expand...

I've collected all the results of the show day heart tests into a spreadsheet and presented them as % affected. There's really not much of a trend as the numbers jump around a lot.
 
Dodo bird said:
I've collected all the results of the show day heart tests into a spreadsheet and presented them as % affected. There's really not much of a trend as the numbers jump around a lot.
Click to expand...

The totals are interesting though. Dogs appear to be aged between 6-7 before they are more likely to have a heart murmur than not (not the by the time they are 5 as is often quoted!).

The totals also illustrate that not very many dogs are checked at age 5 which is crucial to the breeding of their offspring according to UK breeding Guidelines.

Also most sadly, the totals do show quite a high incidence of murmurs in the 4-5 year olds - are they, or their progeny, still used for breeding, contrary to the UK breeding Guidelines ?

Who would know - until we get the results published ?????????

Maggie
 
tuppenlil said:
The totals are interesting though. Dogs appear to be aged between 6-7 before they are more likely to have a heart murmur than not (not the by the time they are 5 as is often quoted!).
Click to expand...

Which hopefully suggests that possibly more Cavaliers are not suffering from early onset murmurs than do - which is a positive that we should probably take note of...

tuppenlil said:
The totals also illustrate that not very many dogs are checked at age 5 which is crucial to the breeding of their offspring according to UK breeding Guidelines.
Click to expand...

That struck me too when I was looking at this year's results. I wonder if it's because breeders are limited to the number of dogs that they can bring to the shows and it will tend to be the younger ones and a few veterans?

The other positive as far as I'm concerned was that the overall figure for murmurs is actuall well below the 50% normally quoted. However I think it shows that different data sets can easily show different results, so nothing is ever set in stone and shouldn't be taken as gospel.

I think the main problem with any such basic statistics is that there's no way of knowing how many dogs are being repeat tested and over what period; I assume that Simon Swift has all this information recorded on his database from the test forms, and this (together with the health records breeders keep) will give the truest pictures of how things are actually progressing.

Many thanks too Dodo for taking the trouble to do your spread sheet!


Rosemary
 
Two of the dogs on Simon Swift's statistics were mine, and both were repeat tests. I've taken Oliver to be checked every year since I got him at a year old. He was clear until he was 6.75, when he had a Grade 1 murmur. Next year it was up to a Grade 2, but this year it has stayed at a 2, which isn't bad for nearly 10. Aled, my rescue, has been checked 3 times: at 1.75 he was a Grade 2; then he went up to a Grade 3, but now at 3.75 is still a 3. We probably skew the statistics nicely!

Incidentally, I never had my B/T Rowley checked by Simon, but the vet picked up no murmur until he was 10, when he went almost straight into congestive heart failure - so another late onset one.

Kate, Oliver and Aled
 
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