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HollyDolly
13th April 2011, 12:23 AM
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5267/5614121849_51b5e7d2b2_b.jpg

RodRussell
13th April 2011, 03:42 AM
Cavaliers next? I would say No.

The Low-Uric-Acid (LUA) Dalmatians are not really cross breeds. They are in the 15th generation since a single cross-mating with a pointer in 1973 and now are 99.7+% purebred Dalamatians. 1973 was 38 years ago.

If the LUA Dalmatian Fiona is a mogrel, then surely CKCS Eng. Ch. Aloysius of Sunninghill was a mogrel, which was whelped only 30 years after the cavalier breed was re-born in the late 1920s. And so, too, Eng. Ch. Vairire Osiris; he was a mongrel.

The Dalmatian breed's problem is caused by one bad gene -- the SLC2A9 gene -- that causes exceedingly high levels of uric acid, and which every AKC-registered Dalamatian has in its system.

The cavaliers' main problems -- MVD, CM/SM, hip dysplasia, etc. -- are polygenetic, and the researchers have been spending years trying to locate those offending genes.

I don't think the CKCS's answer is cross-breeding, but if it is, be ready to wait forty years or more before the cross-breed descendants are accepted into the registries.

Bet
13th April 2011, 11:39 AM
Cavaliers next? I would say No.

The Low-Uric-Acid (LUA) Dalmatians are not really cross breeds. They are in the 15th generation since a single cross-mating with a pointer in 1973 and now are 99.7+% purebred Dalamatians. 1973 was 38 years ago.

If the LUA Dalmatian Fiona is a mogrel, then surely CKCS Eng. Ch. Aloysius of Sunninghill was a mogrel, which was whelped only 30 years after the cavalier breed was re-born in the late 1920s. And so, too, Eng. Ch. Vairire Osiris; he was a mongrel.

The Dalmatian breed's problem is caused by one bad gene -- the SLC2A9 gene -- that causes exceedingly high levels of uric acid, and which every AKC-registered Dalamatian has in its system.

The cavaliers' main problems -- MVD, CM/SM, hip dysplasia, etc. -- are polygenetic, and the researchers have been spending years trying to locate those offending genes.

I don't think the CKCS's answer is cross-breeding, but if it is, be ready to wait forty years or more before the cross-breed descendants are accepted into the registries.


CAVALIERS NEXT ?????

The only Fact I know is that A Cavalier was Crossed with COCKER SPANIEL in the early 1950's

SUNTOP JOYFUL Cocker Spaniel with CREST BY CANDLE LIGHT B/T Cavalier.

When a Decendant was recently MRI Scanned , there was no CM/SM

Bet

Furrfoot
13th April 2011, 06:20 PM
They've done this with boxers, but only to produce a bobtail. It would be interesting to see if any of the "bobtail" boxers had lower incidents of heart issues, too.

Short summary (scroll down): http://www.boxberry.net/page4.asp

Zumie05
13th April 2011, 08:00 PM
I really think for the sake of the breed that waiting 40 years for them to be accepted into registries is worth it. I say cross breed away, as there is much evidence that this can and will help with health problems.

Furrfoot
14th April 2011, 05:10 AM
Hopefully with the new gene research, it won't take 40 years to determine how well it worked and if just the desired gene(s) have been passed down, and how they are passed down. The boxer was the first breed to have the genetic mapping completed (2005- http://www.crossroadsanimalhospital.com/news/item.html/n/16 ), and I have read that they have shown in purebred classes. http://www.steynmere.com/BOBTAILS.html These dogs were winning boxer classes in the late 1990's :) . I believe it was 10 years or so from start of the bobtail "experiment" to show, but I'm not 100% sure.

mommytoClaire
15th April 2011, 02:13 AM
Okay, so this is the answer I was looking for from one of the other threads.

Cross breeding was mentioned in that thread, and I asked if it's shown in the past to help eliminate breed specific issues like CM/SM or MVD. And here is Bet's response about a cross breed from the 50's, whose decendants seem to be free of CM/SM.

I find that very encouraging.

Bet, are all the decendants CM/SM free? What about MVD?

Cindy and Claire

RodRussell
15th April 2011, 05:34 AM
... And here is Bet's response about a cross breed from the 50's, whose decendants seem to be free of CM/SM. ...

That's not what Bet wrote. She wrote:

"SUNTOP JOYFUL Cocker Spaniel with CREST BY CANDLE LIGHT B/T Cavalier.

When a Decendant was recently MRI Scanned , there was no CM/SM"

I don't know if any of that information is accurate, but if it is, it does not mean that ALL of this matings' descendants have been CM/SM-clear. It means that one was clear. And that one was in what generation? How many other cavaliers played a role in contributing to its unique gene pool?

Without extensive research of pedigrees and health checks, picking any cocker and mating it with any cavalier is a crapshoot. We are dealing with polygenetic disorders, so one cross-mating is not going to prove anything.

Davecav
15th April 2011, 08:56 AM
That's not what Bet wrote. She wrote:

"SUNTOP JOYFUL Cocker Spaniel with CREST BY CANDLE LIGHT B/T Cavalier.

When a Decendant was recently MRI Scanned , there was no CM/SM"

I don't know if any of that information is accurate, but if it is, it does not mean that ALL of this matings' descendants have been CM/SM-clear. It means that one was clear. And that one was in what generation? How many other cavaliers played a role in contributing to its unique gene pool?

Without extensive research of pedigrees and health checks, picking any cocker and mating it with any cavalier is a crapshoot. We are dealing with polygenetic disorders, so one cross-mating is not going to prove anything.

Thank you Rod.:)

Sutop Joyful is probably behind tens of thousands of cavaliers, as is Daywell Roger etc etc; as Bet herself keeps pointing out repeatedly - 'all cavaliers come from a very small gene pool'

Even I have got that one.;)

Outcrossing just isn't as simple as having the idea and going ahead and doing it! just look at all the designer dogs bred indiscriminately by well meaning ametuers - a car crash just waiting to happen!!!!!

Bet
15th April 2011, 10:10 AM
Thank you Rod.:)

Sutop Joyful is probably behind tens of thousands of cavaliers, as is Daywell Roger etc etc; as Bet herself keeps pointing out repeatedly - 'all cavaliers come from a very small gene pool'

Even I have got that one.;)

Outcrossing just isn't as simple as having the idea and going ahead and doing it! just look at all the designer dogs bred indiscriminately by well meaning ametuers - a car crash just waiting to happen!!!!!


CAVALIERS NEXT????


Alli I know is that the Cavalier Descendant was MRI Scanned by Dr C Rusbridge , and yes I have Pedigrees of other Cavalier Descendants from this mating who lived to well over 12 years of age some to 15.

I don't think SUNTOP JOYFUL will be behind Tens of Thousands of Cavaliers as Davcave has claimed of Ch DAYWELL ROGER who was bred from many times, as far as I am aware SUNTOP JOYFUL was only Mated this one time.

This Mating was carried out by Margaret Barnes, who is still with us to-day.

Bet

anniemac
15th April 2011, 12:32 PM
I think before one just goes out and get say a cavapoo thinking more healthy, no matter what happens in the future, there can be several things to condsider. Sm has been found in poodles, less than cavaliers don't know really doesn't matter. It does if that poodle has sm. Does that mean the chances are different, have know idea. if poodle has sm, but still would one breed without knowing this could happen. Not to mention other genetic conditions that could be introduced in another breed. Maybe if they had a DNA test, it may be easier to know.

Take my cocker spaniel growing up. He came from a bad breeder. Not puppy farm because we visited house but I know she had ad in paper. Maybe from a mill don't know what is considered. I know nothing about this breed except what Flip went through. I also don't know if these are related to cavalier genetic conditions. Before she was one, she had to get eye operation and several more later on. Her ear drums were removed later on in life, she had severe allergies, but she lived a long life. Actually don't know age. my 4th grade birthday present could have been a car in college because amount of surgeries, medication etc. I'm sure less people would pay so much throughout years.

Cockers may not have as many with genetic conditions, I have no idea, but it is about what if the other is not a good choice.

My point is people can not blindly go cross breeding or buy a cross breed assuming it is healthier. If it is done, I would hope this is done with knowledge etc. Please read through puppy buying section because we do know how to help reduce chance of having a puppy with certain conditions.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Pat
15th April 2011, 01:15 PM
So much I could say, but I have so little time and I'm not willing to invest any more of it in this instance as it will be totally wasted. We've gone over this ground ad nauseam. I had American cockers in the 70's and 80's before I started with Cavaliers. The breed has a myriad of health problems (although many are not life threatening) and the temperament (from the immense popularity of the breed at the time which led to indiscriminate mass breeding in the US) can be nasty and unstable. But that doesn't matter much anyway since the entire premise is faulty - read Rod's reply again.

So I'll just say thank you to Rod and Dave.

Pat

Zumie05
15th April 2011, 11:41 PM
Why would the outcross have to be a Cocker though, just for looks? Selective breeding for looks should be the last thing in mind when thinking to save the Cavalier. A very healthy dog with very few known health issues should be introcuded, and then selectively bred back to the Cavalier style.

I know I am no expert in this matter, but it just frustrates me thinking about all the different possibilities and "what ifs".

mommytoClaire
16th April 2011, 06:11 AM
Oh gosh you all, I certainly wasn't trying to open a can of worms. And I wasn't intimating that it should be a Cocker Spaniel, I was JUST posing the question.

Sorry, I missed that it was just ONE dog that was MRI'd that was clear......that's what happens when you're in a hurry and tired and just not paying attention.

I'm certainly not one that can sit and debate or get into a contest with others who know YEARS more of this whole debate then me. But, I was just asking a simple question, 'Is there any other breed that has had 'breed specific' health issues, that was helped by 'cross breeding'? I certainly didn't mean to infer that Cocker Spaniels were the answer, FAR from that!

It was a simple question, and not even in this thread. Ignore it, I'll look for the answer elsewhere, I didn't realize that this subject had been talked about 'ad nauseam'.

I am still fairly new to this board, and not familiar with a lot of 'old subjects', nor everyone's specific fields of experience or expertise. Excuse me if I've stepped where others are sensitive.

Cindy and Claire

Bet
16th April 2011, 10:16 AM
Oh gosh you all, I certainly wasn't trying to open a can of worms. And I wasn't intimating that it should be a Cocker Spaniel, I was JUST posing the question.

Sorry, I missed that it was just ONE dog that was MRI'd that was clear......that's what happens when you're in a hurry and tired and just not paying attention.

I'm certainly not one that can sit and debate or get into a contest with others who know YEARS more of this whole debate then me. But, I was just asking a simple question, 'Is there any other breed that has had 'breed specific' health issues, that was helped by 'cross breeding'? I certainly didn't mean to infer that Cocker Spaniels were the answer, FAR from that!

It was a simple question, and not even in this thread. Ignore it, I'll look for the answer elsewhere, I didn't realize that this subject had been talked about 'ad nauseam'.

I am still fairly new to this board, and not familiar with a lot of 'old subjects', nor everyone's specific fields of experience or expertise. Excuse me if I've stepped where others are sensitive.

Cindy and Claire


CAVALIERS NEXT?????


Claire.

I am so sorry this happened to you, like you I was only quoting what I know about the Cavalier who was MRI Scanned by Dr Rusbridge, and Pedigree went back to the Mating of the Cocker Spaniel and Cavalier in the Early 1950's, I thought it might be of a wee bit of interest.

Just don't let it upset you, the Question you asked is I believe being considered by the Kennel Club , and there can be no more Important and Influental folk than they are,so we will hear in due course what is going to happen about their discussion about this.

Bet

Pat
16th April 2011, 09:08 PM
Dear Cindy (Claire is her Cavalier),

My frustration was not aimed at you; I know that you are new. And I’m afraid that my “ad nauseam” comment was somewhat misdirected so I apologize for that; it’s more appropriate elsewhere.

My frustration is that often there is information given on internet boards/groups that is either partially correct, poorly thought out or stated, or simplistic/naive, and then people run with these "facts" to reach conclusions that just aren't accurate rather than carefully deliberating all aspects of the topic. Just because someone (and I include myself, Rod and everyone) posts information, don't automatically assume it is correct without independently checking the facts, considering all aspects, and reading critically.

The initial posting of the Dalmation article was interesting, just as the Boxer information (and giving links is always helpful for people who want to read more deeply about a subject). But Rod pointed out the important difference between the Dalmation problem (single gene that is known causing problem, a single outcross from many years back, breeding results closely analyzed over long period of time, etc.) and the Cavalier problem (multiple unknown genes responsible, two major health problems, more outcrosses necessary than just one, etc.) so this then became sort of an "apples and oranges" comparison. This is why I said that the entire premise is faulty because you can't make a comparison of these two breeds' problem/s. The single example of a CM clear Cavalier descendant from a long ago crossbreeding may be of interest but it has no statistical relevance at all to the topic.

I read something recently in one of the groups (and I can't remember which one, but I think it was the yahoo SM group and I think that Laura Lang wrote it) that discussed the hybrid vigor theory. A crossbred dog with two purebred parents is far from the old "Heinz 57" mutts that aren't very common these days. Hybrid vigor would be more applicable to the Heinz 57 dogs (crosses with many, many different breeds in their genetic makeup) than to the "new" designer crossbreeds (reputed to be more healthy) that are popular these days. I think that this addresses Alisha's point a little bit - hybrid vigor is real but it is not obtained by crossing two breeds (generally with poor quality representatives of the breed as parents). Dave's "car crash" comments are applicable here also.

We have discussed outcrossing to another breed previously (but new members wouldn't necessarily know that) including several discussions about the person who has launched the Cavalier "Recreation" Project seeking to cross Cockers and Paps. (She has a website up about it - you can google and read more.) We do have a good search function here, so I often will search to find previous discussion about a specific topic if I want to remember who said what.

The practical application, though, to this discussion is that if an outcross to another breed is thought to be a good idea, it would have to be a collaboration between dedicated breeders (not pet owners) and researchers to design a breeding model/protocol, select the outcross breed to be used, determine how to match up the breeding pairs, measure the results, etc., etc. I'd much prefer to see breeders and researchers working together to use the tools we have and develop more tools to use to breed away from early-onset MVD and SM with the Cavaliers that we now have. (And PLEASE don't give me those statistics on MVD and SM yet again. I understand them.) This IS possible. If breeders and researchers can't even now do that, why would we think they can tackle the even more difficult (and longer time to a good outcome) outcross question????

It's fine for pet owners (or anyone) to sit around and brainstorm ideas, and part of brainstorming is throwing out ideas no matter how crazy they sound at first. But good conclusions are reached by careful consideration of all aspects of the ideas and checking facts – in other words, by critical thinking. I still believe that the things that pet owners can do include supporting the good breeders, educating themselves and other prospective Cavalier buyers, and “voting with their wallets” by only obtaining puppies from good breeders.

Pat

Davecav
17th April 2011, 12:57 AM
Very well thought out and said Pat. I agree totally with everything. Thank you for taking the time and effort to explain it all so well. Much appreciated. :)

To be totally simplistic - take seeds that you buy in any garden centre/nursery - the hybrid ones (crosses between two pure lines) are not Ever expected to prooduce anything even half decent the next generation ............ So unless you are a dedicated and knowlegable nursery (man/woman) in which case with very careful selection and many generations down the line you will turn out something wonderful.

Put into cavalier speak - where under the 'Guidlines' one should not breed until 2.5yrs and parents 5yrs (all clear of everything from a -z) then 5 generations down the line - Ooooow now that's - at least - 12.5 yrs from now - and to be honest I think you might need a fair few more generations before you could say the project was successful - so maybe ....25yrs from now.

What I would like to say to the people who want an immediate solution ... one way or the other is that you won't get it, whether is it to be patient and trust the researchers and breeders who are following the guidleines ....... or to go for the tin-pot idea of crossing to WHAT? ..... how about a Donkey?????????????

RodRussell
17th April 2011, 05:11 AM
... But Rod pointed out the important difference between the Dalmation problem (single gene that is known causing problem, a single outcross from many years back, breeding results closely analyzed over long period of time, etc.) ...

The practical application, though, to this discussion is that if an outcross to another breed is thought to be a good idea, it would have to be a collaboration between dedicated breeders (not pet owners) and researchers to design a breeding model/protocol, select the outcross breed to be used, determine how to match up the breeding pairs, measure the results, etc., etc. ...

That single damatian/pointer breeding 15 generations ago in 1973 is a fascinating story. It worked, obviously, to rid one half of the resulting litter of the uric acid disorder. Then, after a few more generations of breedings, descendents were shipped to breeders throughout the USA. These breeders actually maintained two bloodlines, one of their standard AKC-registered dalmatians and the other of the Low Uric Acid (LUA) dalmatians. They are to be commended. They were ridiculed by their "peers" in the breed's AKC parent club.

For the past 38 years, AKC's dalmatian parent club has opposed recognition of these LUA dalmatians, and AKC has acquiesced -- rolled over, actually -- and banned the LUA litters from registration. (That may change later this year. Enlightenment seems to be in the works at AKC's board of directors on this issue.)

So, there is no reason to think that, even if any CKCS breeders tried to breed away from CM/SM and/or MVD by out-crossing, that the offspring will be recognized as being "cavaliers", even after 38 years.

And Cindy, I did not mean to be picking on you. I try to discuss issues and not pick on people, but sometimes readers have trouble making that distinction.

Pat
17th April 2011, 05:24 PM
One other small item of interest in the story:

The article mentions that Fiona has brown spots instead of black spots, as if that is a breed fault. That comment is a bit misleading since acceptable spot color for Dalmations includes both black and liver spots, and that is not explained in the article. Copied from the breed standard:

"Color and markings and their overall appearance are very important points to be evaluated. The ground color is pure white. In black-spotted dogs the spots are dense black, in liver-spotted dogs the spots are liver brown. any color markings other than black or liver are disqualified."

Pat

Karlin
17th April 2011, 06:22 PM
one way or the other is that you won't get it, whether is it to be patient and trust the researchers and breeders who are following the guidleines ....... or to go for the tin-pot idea of crossing to WHAT? ..... how about a Donkey?????????????

It is worth noting two things here:

* actually, researchers do consider and weigh the potential -- and perhaps eventual necessity -- of outcrossing. This would be anormal part of responsible research into how to best address a widespread, complex genetic condition -- which is what both MVD and SM are (and why it is much harder to get a genetic test than for dry eye/curly coat or episodic falling, in which fortunately, it was simper to find the responsible genes and devise a test once some research effort was focused on these conditions).

* the suggestion for a careful, controlled outcrossing programme is not coming from 'tinpots' but the UK Kennel Club which is in consultation with researchers/geneticists (assuming one doesn't believe the KC to be 'tinpots' :lol:). One of the reasons it is being seriously floated is because there is now a deep level of concern that breeders will not voluntarily test and submit test results to a degree that will ever significantly help the breed's health issues -- for example, to enable programmes like the Estimated Breeding Values to be adequate -- or that such programmes would be used by a meaningful number -- already there are complaints about sharing results, publishing results, costs etc.

:thmbsup:

Pat
17th April 2011, 07:16 PM
the suggestion for a careful, controlled outcrossing programme is not coming from 'tinpots' but the UK Kennel Club which is in consultation with researchers/geneticists (assuming one doesn't believe the KC to be 'tinpots' :lol:). One of the reasons it is being seriously floated is because there is now a deep level of concern that breeders will not voluntarily test and submit test results to a degree that will ever significantly help the breed's health issues -- for example, to enable programmes like the Estimated Breeding Values to be adequate -- or that such programmes would be used by a meaningful number -- already there are complaints about sharing results, publishing results, costs etc.

But Karlin, if the KC and researchers/geneticists determine that an outcross trial breeding program should be done, who exactly is going to be doing these trial breedings? I suppose you would just need a couple of breeders rather than the majority of breeders to agree to do trial breedings but it just seems that this is a much more difficult road to achieve the goal of healthy Cavaliers than having a majority of breeders get on board with the EBV program, participating in current research, screening, etc.? It is frustrating to me that because of lack of sufficient breeder cooperation such a step might be thought to be necessary. Don't people realize how very difficult and how very long it would take to solve Cavalier health problems by going down this road because of the two major health problems and the polygenic and late onset nature of both of the problems?

Pat

Karlin
18th April 2011, 12:04 AM
Fully agree, Pat–the road to addressing health through outcrossing, not least trying to select an appropriate breed or breeds, seems very long and fraught, especially with SM known to be in so many of the toy breeds as is, with unknown rates of incidence. I have no idea how the kennel club would go about doing such a thing, but assume it would have to be tightly controlled and monitored. The very fact that they are even considering something like this certainly seems an indication of a pretty high level of exasperation by the kennel club with the mindset of the breed clubs -- I would not think the kennel club would approach any kind of consideration of an approach that would be so controversial for breeders without feeling options for breed survival were narrowing.

Many breeders though are being quite disingenuous in acting like they have not heard of this at all, as certainly word that there is some discussion along these lines within the KC has seeped out, and already appeared in the dog press and has been discussed by cavalier breeders themselves.

I do know that quite a few of the researchers I have talked to have long felt that the answer is not in outcrossing, but proper testing, sharing information, and using the programs that have been and are being developed to reduce incidence. But that doesn't seem to be happening or be very likely to happen. If nothing at all happens, it could draw scrutiny from the government's dog breeding advisory committee, which could recommend mandated testing, for example, or that champions be health cleared for conditions that cannot be evaluated by judges before being awarded championships.

RodRussell
18th April 2011, 01:53 AM
If a national kennel club can mandate out-crossing (after, I am sure, much input from researchers about what genes need tweeking and what other breeds would be the best candidates), then I say, more power to the process. It won't work in the USA, without a lot of time and a lot of painful politics. But if the UK kennel club finally says: "This will be done", then I look forward to the process and outcome and wish it well.

I should think after 10 generations and 25 years, any of the elements of the CKCS breed standard could be met. Maybe even sooner. How many generations did it take after 1927 for cavalier progeny to obtain the first conformation championships? Certainly far less than the 15 generations and 38 years of the LUA dalmatians.

mommytoClaire
18th April 2011, 02:19 AM
I just didn't want anyone to think I was asking a question in an 'off handed' manner.
The health issues of Cavaliers concern me greatly. Unfortunately, I think that for most breeders (at least here in the US) the almighty dollar will dictate their decisions, rather than the health (short and long term) of the breed.

Karlin said:

I do know that quite a few of the researchers I have talked to have long felt that the answer is not in outcrossing, but proper testing, sharing information, and using the programs that have been and are being developed to reduce incidence. But that doesn't seem to be happening or be very likely to happen. If nothing at all happens, it could draw scrutiny from the government's dog breeding advisory committee, which could recommend mandated testing, for example, or that champions be health cleared for conditions that cannot be evaluated by judges before being awarded championships.

Karlin, one can only hope that things will begin to change before this wonderful breed of dog is lost.

Cindy and Claire

Pat
18th April 2011, 03:43 AM
It won't work in the USA, without a lot of time and a lot of painful politics.

I should think after 10 generations and 25 years, any of the elements of the CKCS breed standard could be met.

I agree - this will never happen in the US. Very different political climate.

Guess I'll never know the outcome if it happens in the UK because I'll be dead in 25 years!

Pat

RodRussell
18th April 2011, 04:20 AM
I agree - this will never happen in the US. Very different political climate.

Guess I'll never know the outcome if it happens in the UK because I'll be dead in 25 years!

Pat

Pat, be more optimistic!

Bet
18th April 2011, 11:59 AM
Fully agree, Pat–the road to addressing health through outcrossing, not least trying to select an appropriate breed or breeds, seems very long and fraught, especially with SM known to be in so many of the toy breeds as is, with unknown rates of incidence. I have no idea how the kennel club would go about doing such a thing, but assume it would have to be tightly controlled and monitored. The very fact that they are even considering something like this certainly seems an indication of a pretty high level of exasperation by the kennel club with the mindset of the breed clubs -- I would not think the kennel club would approach any kind of consideration of an approach that would be so controversial for breeders without feeling options for breed survival were narrowing.

Many breeders though are being quite disingenuous in acting like they have not heard of this at all, as certainly word that there is some discussion along these lines within the KC has seeped out, and already appeared in the dog press and has been discussed by cavalier breeders themselves.

I do know that quite a few of the researchers I have talked to have long felt that the answer is not in outcrossing, but proper testing, sharing information, and using the programs that have been and are being developed to reduce incidence. But that doesn't seem to be happening or be very likely to happen. If nothing at all happens, it could draw scrutiny from the government's dog breeding advisory committee, which could recommend mandated testing, for example, or that champions be health cleared for conditions that cannot be evaluated by judges before being awarded championships.


CAVALIERS NEXT ?????


Can I just say that Desperate Times Demand Desperate Measures.

If this Avenue will give the Cavaliers a Future ,then so be it.

If this has to be left to the Geneticists and Researchers , then I would Guess they will know how to be Tackling this .

As sure as Eggs are Eggs ,as the saying goes, there is no Improvement for our Cavaliers Health at the Moment , just in a wee while ,it really seems as if the Cavaliers will be an Extinct Breed.

Maybe this way will give them the chance of Surviving.

The Cavalier Breed won't be any worse off than it is at the Moment.

If the Cavalier Public will be Prepared to Buy an Out Crossed Cavalier ,is this not the Bottom Line ,since it's the Pet Homes that most Cavaliers are being sold to,

Dog Showing cannot Exist in in a Self Contained Bubble

For that Reason Show Breeders are Pet Breeders.


Bet

Margaret C
18th April 2011, 09:26 PM
Fully agree, Pat–the road to addressing health through outcrossing, not least trying to select an appropriate breed or breeds, seems very long and fraught, especially with SM known to be in so many of the toy breeds as is, with unknown rates of incidence. I have no idea how the kennel club would go about doing such a thing, but assume it would have to be tightly controlled and monitored. The very fact that they are even considering something like this certainly seems an indication of a pretty high level of exasperation by the kennel club with the mindset of the breed clubs -- I would not think the kennel club would approach any kind of consideration of an approach that would be so controversial for breeders without feeling options for breed survival were narrowing.

Many breeders though are being quite disingenuous in acting like they have not heard of this at all, as certainly word that there is some discussion along these lines within the KC has seeped out, and already appeared in the dog press and has been discussed by cavalier breeders themselves. .

I mentioned in an earlier thread that when I was being shown 'Mate Select' at Crufts I was asked what I thought about the idea of bringing new genetic material into the Cavalier gene pool by outcrossing to another breed.
I said I thought it could be a good idea if it gave us a healthier dog, but most breeders would be very opposed and there was no way the KC would agree.
I was suprised when told it was already being discussed within the KC.

I doubt whether anything like this is imminent or whether it could give even part of the answer to the overwhelming health problems that beset the cavalier, but it is something I would consider doing if properly run and monitored by geneticists.

I always feel surprised when breeders will argue that an outcross is unacceptable because they will not allow any compromise in looks or temperament.
These are the people that maintain they love their dogs as much as any pet owner, but they would prefer to see this very painful condition continue to take over the breed until no civilsed society can ignore the welfare issues, rather than do anything concrete to help the situation.





I do know that quite a few of the researchers I have talked to have long felt that the answer is not in outcrossing, but proper testing, sharing information, and using the programs that have been and are being developed to reduce incidence. But that doesn't seem to be happening or be very likely to happen..

You are right. Although quite a few breeders are now saying that what is needed is the DNA test rather than outcrossing, these are the same breeders that have blanked and ignored the only research project that was working to find CM and SM genes.

These 'current guardians' who are praying that "those genes that up until now which have been evading us will be found"

Those who would "fight tooth and nail to stop those who wish the introduction of another breed" ...."We need to find the DNA marker"

Those who say "The only positive way forward is to forget this silly talk about outcrossing and try to find a DNA marker"

If they really mean what they say then they need to start supporting & funding the Gene research.
If there had not been so many years of obstruction, that so needed DNA test may have been a great deal closer.

So many breeders have not helped with DNA research, they will not accept outcrossing, they do not condemn those that break the breeding guidelines.

They wait for pet owners to raise money, to pay for projects run by researchers they will not recognise, to produce DNA tests that they have at long last decided will be the saving of the breed.

Zumie05
18th April 2011, 10:48 PM
I have wanted a Cavalier for over 3 years. Just about a year and a half ago i when I finally got serious with them and learned about everything. Coco came into my life only 6 months ago, and has been everything I have ever wanted in a dog. I am so happy she is in my life, this breed is truly everything that I had dreamed of.

I have obviously become pretty passionate with them. I want to learn how to participate in the show ring, and what can be done to help them. I would love to one day be a breeder. I would not mind out crossing and having "mongrels" for the sake of this breed's health. I am young enough to be able to see results 25 years from now. I wouldn't mind submitting DNA tests and doing an MRI on all my dogs. Making $ would not be my goal. I just wish there was something I could do to help.

Maybe in a few years when I have a larger home I can get more serious into the breed.

Margaret C
19th April 2011, 11:23 PM
I have wanted a Cavalier for over 3 years. Just about a year and a half ago i when I finally got serious with them and learned about everything. Coco came into my life only 6 months ago, and has been everything I have ever wanted in a dog. I am so happy she is in my life, this breed is truly everything that I had dreamed of.

I have obviously become pretty passionate with them. I want to learn how to participate in the show ring, and what can be done to help them. I would love to one day be a breeder. I would not mind out crossing and having "mongrels" for the sake of this breed's health. I am young enough to be able to see results 25 years from now. I wouldn't mind submitting DNA tests and doing an MRI on all my dogs. Making $ would not be my goal. I just wish there was something I could do to help.

Maybe in a few years when I have a larger home I can get more serious into the breed.

And maybe it will be young open-minded owners like you, with your mind uncluttered by all the prejudices we inherited from the old time breeders, or even invented for ourselves, that will turn things round.

There is no doubt that things are changing at the UK Kennel Club................

http://pedigreedogsexposed.blogspot.com:80/2011/04/make-way-for-mutts-well-maybe.html

Make way for the mutts - well, maybe

"The Kennel Club announced today (http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/3672/23/5/3)that it has reinstated what used to be known as the "B register" - a system by which is is possible to bring in "impure" or "unverified" stock in order to enhance genetic diversity. Using language that is a distinct change of tone, the KC even says that it is "keen to open up its register".