-
If you're a past member of the board, but can't recall your password any more, you don't need to set up a new account (unless you wish to). As long as you recall your old login name, you can log in with that user name then select 'forgot password' and the board will email you at your registration email, to let you reset your password.
Cavaliers Next????
- Thread starter HollyDolly
- Start date
RodRussell
Well-known member
Cavaliers next? I would say No.
The Low-Uric-Acid (LUA) Dalmatians are not really cross breeds. They are in the 15th generation since a single cross-mating with a pointer in 1973 and now are 99.7+% purebred Dalamatians. 1973 was 38 years ago.
If the LUA Dalmatian Fiona is a mogrel, then surely CKCS Eng. Ch. Aloysius of Sunninghill was a mogrel, which was whelped only 30 years after the cavalier breed was re-born in the late 1920s. And so, too, Eng. Ch. Vairire Osiris; he was a mongrel.
The Dalmatian breed's problem is caused by one bad gene -- the SLC2A9 gene -- that causes exceedingly high levels of uric acid, and which every AKC-registered Dalamatian has in its system.
The cavaliers' main problems -- MVD, CM/SM, hip dysplasia, etc. -- are polygenetic, and the researchers have been spending years trying to locate those offending genes.
I don't think the CKCS's answer is cross-breeding, but if it is, be ready to wait forty years or more before the cross-breed descendants are accepted into the registries.
The Low-Uric-Acid (LUA) Dalmatians are not really cross breeds. They are in the 15th generation since a single cross-mating with a pointer in 1973 and now are 99.7+% purebred Dalamatians. 1973 was 38 years ago.
If the LUA Dalmatian Fiona is a mogrel, then surely CKCS Eng. Ch. Aloysius of Sunninghill was a mogrel, which was whelped only 30 years after the cavalier breed was re-born in the late 1920s. And so, too, Eng. Ch. Vairire Osiris; he was a mongrel.
The Dalmatian breed's problem is caused by one bad gene -- the SLC2A9 gene -- that causes exceedingly high levels of uric acid, and which every AKC-registered Dalamatian has in its system.
The cavaliers' main problems -- MVD, CM/SM, hip dysplasia, etc. -- are polygenetic, and the researchers have been spending years trying to locate those offending genes.
I don't think the CKCS's answer is cross-breeding, but if it is, be ready to wait forty years or more before the cross-breed descendants are accepted into the registries.
Cavaliers next ?????
CAVALIERS NEXT ?????
The only Fact I know is that A Cavalier was Crossed with COCKER SPANIEL in the early 1950's
SUNTOP JOYFUL Cocker Spaniel with CREST BY CANDLE LIGHT B/T Cavalier.
When a Decendant was recently MRI Scanned , there was no CM/SM
Bet
CAVALIERS NEXT ?????
The only Fact I know is that A Cavalier was Crossed with COCKER SPANIEL in the early 1950's
SUNTOP JOYFUL Cocker Spaniel with CREST BY CANDLE LIGHT B/T Cavalier.
When a Decendant was recently MRI Scanned , there was no CM/SM
Bet
Furrfoot
Well-known member
They've done this with boxers, but only to produce a bobtail. It would be interesting to see if any of the "bobtail" boxers had lower incidents of heart issues, too.
Short summary (scroll down): http://www.boxberry.net/page4.asp
Short summary (scroll down): http://www.boxberry.net/page4.asp
Furrfoot
Well-known member
Hopefully with the new gene research, it won't take 40 years to determine how well it worked and if just the desired gene(s) have been passed down, and how they are passed down. The boxer was the first breed to have the genetic mapping completed (2005- http://www.crossroadsanimalhospital.com/news/item.html/n/16 ), and I have read that they have shown in purebred classes. http://www.steynmere.com/BOBTAILS.html These dogs were winning boxer classes in the late 1990's 
. I believe it was 10 years or so from start of the bobtail "experiment" to show, but I'm not 100% sure.
. I believe it was 10 years or so from start of the bobtail "experiment" to show, but I'm not 100% sure.
mommytoClaire
Well-known member
Okay, so this is the answer I was looking for from one of the other threads.
Cross breeding was mentioned in that thread, and I asked if it's shown in the past to help eliminate breed specific issues like CM/SM or MVD. And here is Bet's response about a cross breed from the 50's, whose decendants seem to be free of CM/SM.
I find that very encouraging.
Bet, are all the decendants CM/SM free? What about MVD?
Cindy and Claire
Cross breeding was mentioned in that thread, and I asked if it's shown in the past to help eliminate breed specific issues like CM/SM or MVD. And here is Bet's response about a cross breed from the 50's, whose decendants seem to be free of CM/SM.
I find that very encouraging.
Bet, are all the decendants CM/SM free? What about MVD?
Cindy and Claire
RodRussell
Well-known member
That's not what Bet wrote. She wrote:
"SUNTOP JOYFUL Cocker Spaniel with CREST BY CANDLE LIGHT B/T Cavalier.
When a Decendant was recently MRI Scanned , there was no CM/SM"
I don't know if any of that information is accurate, but if it is, it does not mean that ALL of this matings' descendants have been CM/SM-clear. It means that one was clear. And that one was in what generation? How many other cavaliers played a role in contributing to its unique gene pool?
Without extensive research of pedigrees and health checks, picking any cocker and mating it with any cavalier is a crapshoot. We are dealing with polygenetic disorders, so one cross-mating is not going to prove anything.
Davecav
Well-known member
Thank you Rod.
Sutop Joyful is probably behind tens of thousands of cavaliers, as is Daywell Roger etc etc; as Bet herself keeps pointing out repeatedly - 'all cavaliers come from a very small gene pool'
Even I have got that one.
Outcrossing just isn't as simple as having the idea and going ahead and doing it! just look at all the designer dogs bred indiscriminately by well meaning ametuers - a car crash just waiting to happen!!!!!
Cavaliers next ?????
CAVALIERS NEXT????
Alli I know is that the Cavalier Descendant was MRI Scanned by Dr C Rusbridge , and yes I have Pedigrees of other Cavalier Descendants from this mating who lived to well over 12 years of age some to 15.
I don't think SUNTOP JOYFUL will be behind Tens of Thousands of Cavaliers as Davcave has claimed of Ch DAYWELL ROGER who was bred from many times, as far as I am aware SUNTOP JOYFUL was only Mated this one time.
This Mating was carried out by Margaret Barnes, who is still with us to-day.
Bet
Thank you Rod.
Sutop Joyful is probably behind tens of thousands of cavaliers, as is Daywell Roger etc etc; as Bet herself keeps pointing out repeatedly - 'all cavaliers come from a very small gene pool'
Even I have got that one.
Outcrossing just isn't as simple as having the idea and going ahead and doing it! just look at all the designer dogs bred indiscriminately by well meaning ametuers - a car crash just waiting to happen!!!!!
CAVALIERS NEXT????
Alli I know is that the Cavalier Descendant was MRI Scanned by Dr C Rusbridge , and yes I have Pedigrees of other Cavalier Descendants from this mating who lived to well over 12 years of age some to 15.
I don't think SUNTOP JOYFUL will be behind Tens of Thousands of Cavaliers as Davcave has claimed of Ch DAYWELL ROGER who was bred from many times, as far as I am aware SUNTOP JOYFUL was only Mated this one time.
This Mating was carried out by Margaret Barnes, who is still with us to-day.
Bet
anniemac
Well-known member
I think before one just goes out and get say a cavapoo thinking more healthy, no matter what happens in the future, there can be several things to condsider. Sm has been found in poodles, less than cavaliers don't know really doesn't matter. It does if that poodle has sm. Does that mean the chances are different, have know idea. if poodle has sm, but still would one breed without knowing this could happen. Not to mention other genetic conditions that could be introduced in another breed. Maybe if they had a DNA test, it may be easier to know.
Take my cocker spaniel growing up. He came from a bad breeder. Not puppy farm because we visited house but I know she had ad in paper. Maybe from a mill don't know what is considered. I know nothing about this breed except what Flip went through. I also don't know if these are related to cavalier genetic conditions. Before she was one, she had to get eye operation and several more later on. Her ear drums were removed later on in life, she had severe allergies, but she lived a long life. Actually don't know age. my 4th grade birthday present could have been a car in college because amount of surgeries, medication etc. I'm sure less people would pay so much throughout years.
Cockers may not have as many with genetic conditions, I have no idea, but it is about what if the other is not a good choice.
My point is people can not blindly go cross breeding or buy a cross breed assuming it is healthier. If it is done, I would hope this is done with knowledge etc. Please read through puppy buying section because we do know how to help reduce chance of having a puppy with certain conditions.
Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk
Take my cocker spaniel growing up. He came from a bad breeder. Not puppy farm because we visited house but I know she had ad in paper. Maybe from a mill don't know what is considered. I know nothing about this breed except what Flip went through. I also don't know if these are related to cavalier genetic conditions. Before she was one, she had to get eye operation and several more later on. Her ear drums were removed later on in life, she had severe allergies, but she lived a long life. Actually don't know age. my 4th grade birthday present could have been a car in college because amount of surgeries, medication etc. I'm sure less people would pay so much throughout years.
Cockers may not have as many with genetic conditions, I have no idea, but it is about what if the other is not a good choice.
My point is people can not blindly go cross breeding or buy a cross breed assuming it is healthier. If it is done, I would hope this is done with knowledge etc. Please read through puppy buying section because we do know how to help reduce chance of having a puppy with certain conditions.
Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk
So much I could say, but I have so little time and I'm not willing to invest any more of it in this instance as it will be totally wasted. We've gone over this ground ad nauseam. I had American cockers in the 70's and 80's before I started with Cavaliers. The breed has a myriad of health problems (although many are not life threatening) and the temperament (from the immense popularity of the breed at the time which led to indiscriminate mass breeding in the US) can be nasty and unstable. But that doesn't matter much anyway since the entire premise is faulty - read Rod's reply again.
So I'll just say thank you to Rod and Dave.
Pat
So I'll just say thank you to Rod and Dave.
Pat
Zumie05
Well-known member
Why would the outcross have to be a Cocker though, just for looks? Selective breeding for looks should be the last thing in mind when thinking to save the Cavalier. A very healthy dog with very few known health issues should be introcuded, and then selectively bred back to the Cavalier style.
I know I am no expert in this matter, but it just frustrates me thinking about all the different possibilities and "what ifs".
I know I am no expert in this matter, but it just frustrates me thinking about all the different possibilities and "what ifs".
mommytoClaire
Well-known member
Oh gosh you all, I certainly wasn't trying to open a can of worms. And I wasn't intimating that it should be a Cocker Spaniel, I was JUST posing the question.
Sorry, I missed that it was just ONE dog that was MRI'd that was clear......that's what happens when you're in a hurry and tired and just not paying attention.
I'm certainly not one that can sit and debate or get into a contest with others who know YEARS more of this whole debate then me. But, I was just asking a simple question, 'Is there any other breed that has had 'breed specific' health issues, that was helped by 'cross breeding'? I certainly didn't mean to infer that Cocker Spaniels were the answer, FAR from that!
It was a simple question, and not even in this thread. Ignore it, I'll look for the answer elsewhere, I didn't realize that this subject had been talked about 'ad nauseam'.
I am still fairly new to this board, and not familiar with a lot of 'old subjects', nor everyone's specific fields of experience or expertise. Excuse me if I've stepped where others are sensitive.
Cindy and Claire
Sorry, I missed that it was just ONE dog that was MRI'd that was clear......that's what happens when you're in a hurry and tired and just not paying attention.
I'm certainly not one that can sit and debate or get into a contest with others who know YEARS more of this whole debate then me. But, I was just asking a simple question, 'Is there any other breed that has had 'breed specific' health issues, that was helped by 'cross breeding'? I certainly didn't mean to infer that Cocker Spaniels were the answer, FAR from that!
It was a simple question, and not even in this thread. Ignore it, I'll look for the answer elsewhere, I didn't realize that this subject had been talked about 'ad nauseam'.
I am still fairly new to this board, and not familiar with a lot of 'old subjects', nor everyone's specific fields of experience or expertise. Excuse me if I've stepped where others are sensitive.
Cindy and Claire
Cavaliers next ??????
CAVALIERS NEXT?????
Claire.
I am so sorry this happened to you, like you I was only quoting what I know about the Cavalier who was MRI Scanned by Dr Rusbridge, and Pedigree went back to the Mating of the Cocker Spaniel and Cavalier in the Early 1950's, I thought it might be of a wee bit of interest.
Just don't let it upset you, the Question you asked is I believe being considered by the Kennel Club , and there can be no more Important and Influental folk than they are,so we will hear in due course what is going to happen about their discussion about this.
Bet
CAVALIERS NEXT?????
Claire.
I am so sorry this happened to you, like you I was only quoting what I know about the Cavalier who was MRI Scanned by Dr Rusbridge, and Pedigree went back to the Mating of the Cocker Spaniel and Cavalier in the Early 1950's, I thought it might be of a wee bit of interest.
Just don't let it upset you, the Question you asked is I believe being considered by the Kennel Club , and there can be no more Important and Influental folk than they are,so we will hear in due course what is going to happen about their discussion about this.
Bet
Dear Cindy (Claire is her Cavalier),
My frustration was not aimed at you; I know that you are new. And I’m afraid that my “ad nauseam” comment was somewhat misdirected so I apologize for that; it’s more appropriate elsewhere.
My frustration is that often there is information given on internet boards/groups that is either partially correct, poorly thought out or stated, or simplistic/naive, and then people run with these "facts" to reach conclusions that just aren't accurate rather than carefully deliberating all aspects of the topic. Just because someone (and I include myself, Rod and everyone) posts information, don't automatically assume it is correct without independently checking the facts, considering all aspects, and reading critically.
The initial posting of the Dalmation article was interesting, just as the Boxer information (and giving links is always helpful for people who want to read more deeply about a subject). But Rod pointed out the important difference between the Dalmation problem (single gene that is known causing problem, a single outcross from many years back, breeding results closely analyzed over long period of time, etc.) and the Cavalier problem (multiple unknown genes responsible, two major health problems, more outcrosses necessary than just one, etc.) so this then became sort of an "apples and oranges" comparison. This is why I said that the entire premise is faulty because you can't make a comparison of these two breeds' problem/s. The single example of a CM clear Cavalier descendant from a long ago crossbreeding may be of interest but it has no statistical relevance at all to the topic.
I read something recently in one of the groups (and I can't remember which one, but I think it was the yahoo SM group and I think that Laura Lang wrote it) that discussed the hybrid vigor theory. A crossbred dog with two purebred parents is far from the old "Heinz 57" mutts that aren't very common these days. Hybrid vigor would be more applicable to the Heinz 57 dogs (crosses with many, many different breeds in their genetic makeup) than to the "new" designer crossbreeds (reputed to be more healthy) that are popular these days. I think that this addresses Alisha's point a little bit - hybrid vigor is real but it is not obtained by crossing two breeds (generally with poor quality representatives of the breed as parents). Dave's "car crash" comments are applicable here also.
We have discussed outcrossing to another breed previously (but new members wouldn't necessarily know that) including several discussions about the person who has launched the Cavalier "Recreation" Project seeking to cross Cockers and Paps. (She has a website up about it - you can google and read more.) We do have a good search function here, so I often will search to find previous discussion about a specific topic if I want to remember who said what.
The practical application, though, to this discussion is that if an outcross to another breed is thought to be a good idea, it would have to be a collaboration between dedicated breeders (not pet owners) and researchers to design a breeding model/protocol, select the outcross breed to be used, determine how to match up the breeding pairs, measure the results, etc., etc. I'd much prefer to see breeders and researchers working together to use the tools we have and develop more tools to use to breed away from early-onset MVD and SM with the Cavaliers that we now have. (And PLEASE don't give me those statistics on MVD and SM yet again. I understand them.) This IS possible. If breeders and researchers can't even now do that, why would we think they can tackle the even more difficult (and longer time to a good outcome) outcross question????
It's fine for pet owners (or anyone) to sit around and brainstorm ideas, and part of brainstorming is throwing out ideas no matter how crazy they sound at first. But good conclusions are reached by careful consideration of all aspects of the ideas and checking facts – in other words, by critical thinking. I still believe that the things that pet owners can do include supporting the good breeders, educating themselves and other prospective Cavalier buyers, and “voting with their wallets” by only obtaining puppies from good breeders.
Pat
My frustration was not aimed at you; I know that you are new. And I’m afraid that my “ad nauseam” comment was somewhat misdirected so I apologize for that; it’s more appropriate elsewhere.
My frustration is that often there is information given on internet boards/groups that is either partially correct, poorly thought out or stated, or simplistic/naive, and then people run with these "facts" to reach conclusions that just aren't accurate rather than carefully deliberating all aspects of the topic. Just because someone (and I include myself, Rod and everyone) posts information, don't automatically assume it is correct without independently checking the facts, considering all aspects, and reading critically.
The initial posting of the Dalmation article was interesting, just as the Boxer information (and giving links is always helpful for people who want to read more deeply about a subject). But Rod pointed out the important difference between the Dalmation problem (single gene that is known causing problem, a single outcross from many years back, breeding results closely analyzed over long period of time, etc.) and the Cavalier problem (multiple unknown genes responsible, two major health problems, more outcrosses necessary than just one, etc.) so this then became sort of an "apples and oranges" comparison. This is why I said that the entire premise is faulty because you can't make a comparison of these two breeds' problem/s. The single example of a CM clear Cavalier descendant from a long ago crossbreeding may be of interest but it has no statistical relevance at all to the topic.
I read something recently in one of the groups (and I can't remember which one, but I think it was the yahoo SM group and I think that Laura Lang wrote it) that discussed the hybrid vigor theory. A crossbred dog with two purebred parents is far from the old "Heinz 57" mutts that aren't very common these days. Hybrid vigor would be more applicable to the Heinz 57 dogs (crosses with many, many different breeds in their genetic makeup) than to the "new" designer crossbreeds (reputed to be more healthy) that are popular these days. I think that this addresses Alisha's point a little bit - hybrid vigor is real but it is not obtained by crossing two breeds (generally with poor quality representatives of the breed as parents). Dave's "car crash" comments are applicable here also.
We have discussed outcrossing to another breed previously (but new members wouldn't necessarily know that) including several discussions about the person who has launched the Cavalier "Recreation" Project seeking to cross Cockers and Paps. (She has a website up about it - you can google and read more.) We do have a good search function here, so I often will search to find previous discussion about a specific topic if I want to remember who said what.
The practical application, though, to this discussion is that if an outcross to another breed is thought to be a good idea, it would have to be a collaboration between dedicated breeders (not pet owners) and researchers to design a breeding model/protocol, select the outcross breed to be used, determine how to match up the breeding pairs, measure the results, etc., etc. I'd much prefer to see breeders and researchers working together to use the tools we have and develop more tools to use to breed away from early-onset MVD and SM with the Cavaliers that we now have. (And PLEASE don't give me those statistics on MVD and SM yet again. I understand them.) This IS possible. If breeders and researchers can't even now do that, why would we think they can tackle the even more difficult (and longer time to a good outcome) outcross question????
It's fine for pet owners (or anyone) to sit around and brainstorm ideas, and part of brainstorming is throwing out ideas no matter how crazy they sound at first. But good conclusions are reached by careful consideration of all aspects of the ideas and checking facts – in other words, by critical thinking. I still believe that the things that pet owners can do include supporting the good breeders, educating themselves and other prospective Cavalier buyers, and “voting with their wallets” by only obtaining puppies from good breeders.
Pat
Davecav
Well-known member
Very well thought out and said Pat. I agree totally with everything. Thank you for taking the time and effort to explain it all so well. Much appreciated.
To be totally simplistic - take seeds that you buy in any garden centre/nursery - the hybrid ones (crosses between two pure lines) are not Ever expected to prooduce anything even half decent the next generation ............ So unless you are a dedicated and knowlegable nursery (man/woman) in which case with very careful selection and many generations down the line you will turn out something wonderful.
Put into cavalier speak - where under the 'Guidlines' one should not breed until 2.5yrs and parents 5yrs (all clear of everything from a -z) then 5 generations down the line - Ooooow now that's - at least - 12.5 yrs from now - and to be honest I think you might need a fair few more generations before you could say the project was successful - so maybe ....25yrs from now.
What I would like to say to the people who want an immediate solution ... one way or the other is that you won't get it, whether is it to be patient and trust the researchers and breeders who are following the guidleines ....... or to go for the tin-pot idea of crossing to WHAT? ..... how about a Donkey?????????????
To be totally simplistic - take seeds that you buy in any garden centre/nursery - the hybrid ones (crosses between two pure lines) are not Ever expected to prooduce anything even half decent the next generation ............ So unless you are a dedicated and knowlegable nursery (man/woman) in which case with very careful selection and many generations down the line you will turn out something wonderful.
Put into cavalier speak - where under the 'Guidlines' one should not breed until 2.5yrs and parents 5yrs (all clear of everything from a -z) then 5 generations down the line - Ooooow now that's - at least - 12.5 yrs from now - and to be honest I think you might need a fair few more generations before you could say the project was successful - so maybe ....25yrs from now.
What I would like to say to the people who want an immediate solution ... one way or the other is that you won't get it, whether is it to be patient and trust the researchers and breeders who are following the guidleines ....... or to go for the tin-pot idea of crossing to WHAT? ..... how about a Donkey?????????????
Last edited:
RodRussell
Well-known member
That single damatian/pointer breeding 15 generations ago in 1973 is a fascinating story. It worked, obviously, to rid one half of the resulting litter of the uric acid disorder. Then, after a few more generations of breedings, descendents were shipped to breeders throughout the USA. These breeders actually maintained two bloodlines, one of their standard AKC-registered dalmatians and the other of the Low Uric Acid (LUA) dalmatians. They are to be commended. They were ridiculed by their "peers" in the breed's AKC parent club.
For the past 38 years, AKC's dalmatian parent club has opposed recognition of these LUA dalmatians, and AKC has acquiesced -- rolled over, actually -- and banned the LUA litters from registration. (That may change later this year. Enlightenment seems to be in the works at AKC's board of directors on this issue.)
So, there is no reason to think that, even if any CKCS breeders tried to breed away from CM/SM and/or MVD by out-crossing, that the offspring will be recognized as being "cavaliers", even after 38 years.
And Cindy, I did not mean to be picking on you. I try to discuss issues and not pick on people, but sometimes readers have trouble making that distinction.
One other small item of interest in the story:
The article mentions that Fiona has brown spots instead of black spots, as if that is a breed fault. That comment is a bit misleading since acceptable spot color for Dalmations includes both black and liver spots, and that is not explained in the article. Copied from the breed standard:
"Color and markings and their overall appearance are very important points to be evaluated. The ground color is pure white. In black-spotted dogs the spots are dense black, in liver-spotted dogs the spots are liver brown. any color markings other than black or liver are disqualified."
Pat
The article mentions that Fiona has brown spots instead of black spots, as if that is a breed fault. That comment is a bit misleading since acceptable spot color for Dalmations includes both black and liver spots, and that is not explained in the article. Copied from the breed standard:
"Color and markings and their overall appearance are very important points to be evaluated. The ground color is pure white. In black-spotted dogs the spots are dense black, in liver-spotted dogs the spots are liver brown. any color markings other than black or liver are disqualified."
Pat
It is worth noting two things here:
* actually, researchers do consider and weigh the potential -- and perhaps eventual necessity -- of outcrossing. This would be anormal part of responsible research into how to best address a widespread, complex genetic condition -- which is what both MVD and SM are (and why it is much harder to get a genetic test than for dry eye/curly coat or episodic falling, in which fortunately, it was simper to find the responsible genes and devise a test once some research effort was focused on these conditions).
* the suggestion for a careful, controlled outcrossing programme is not coming from 'tinpots' but the UK Kennel Club which is in consultation with researchers/geneticists (assuming one doesn't believe the KC to be 'tinpots' :lol
. One of the reasons it is being seriously floated is because there is now a deep level of concern that breeders will not voluntarily test and submit test results to a degree that will ever significantly help the breed's health issues -- for example, to enable programmes like the Estimated Breeding Values to be adequate -- or that such programmes would be used by a meaningful number -- already there are complaints about sharing results, publishing results, costs etc.