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View Full Version : When will cavalier breeders understand!!!!



Bet
20th April 2011, 10:58 AM
Like it or not ,Cavalier Show Breeders,are Cavalier Pet Breeders.

The Cavalier Breeders need a constant flow of Cavalier Puppies entering the SHOW WORLD.

The Bottom Line is that this means, a constant flow of Non Show Flow Quality Cavalier Puppies and Cavaliers past their Showing Days go to Cavalier Pet Homes.

How many Cavalier Show Breeders keep their SURPLUS CAVALIER PUPPIES or their Older Cavaliers who are of no use to them for Either Showing or Breeding from?

Not a lot .I would guess.

Sad to say by some Cavalier Show Breeders ,the Cavalier Pet Buying Public is looked down ,take away the Cavalier Pet Buying Public ,

THERE WOULD BE NO CAVALIER SHOW WORLD.

The latest Information from the Dog Advisory is ,that that they are standing up for the Dog Pet Buying Public, that Breeders of Dogs have to realize how much they depend on the Pet Dog Buying Public.

I would think that this alone should bring home to those Cavalier Breeders who are so ADAMANT in their DETERMINATION not to have the Results of the MRI SCANS Published for the Cavalier Buying Public to see ,that it is the right of Pet Cavalier Buyers to see Publicly the Results of the MRI Scans published in the KENNEL CLUB'S Breed Record Supplement.

Bet

Davecav
20th April 2011, 11:35 AM
I don't understand this obsession with Cavalier breeders that show? and trying to stop them showing by not purchasing their stock?

OK - just suppose that all potential pet owners boycott buying a puppy from anyone who says they show cavaliers, what would happen? Probably not a lot - as most show poeple don't have very many litters anyway..... and you would stop a number of people who do follow the guidelines from enjoying their hobby. That seems a bit unfair.

Just imagine that you have managed to stop Cavaliers being shown, ( is this what you really want to achieve?)

How do you then make all the commerical kennels that churn out cavailers start to health test properly, because most do not MRI scan their stock, and when I have made enquiries the best I get is "Yes the puppies have been vet checked and wormed" And they come with a puppy pack and some food!!!:( And all my stock are healthy.

Bet, have you telephoned people that advertise on these puppy websites to find out exactly what health tests are done? It's very depressing.

I agree that I would be a really good idea to have health results published, but I don't know that it will make any difference to the commercial and BYB breeders as they don't scan anyway and they don't care.

Bet
20th April 2011, 12:08 PM
I don't understand this obsession with Cavalier breeders that show? and trying to stop them showing by not purchasing their stock?

OK - just suppose that all potential pet owners boycott buying a puppy from anyone who says they show cavaliers, what would happen? Probably not a lot - as most show poeple don't have very many litters anyway..... and you would stop a number of people who do follow the guidelines from enjoying their hobby. That seems a bit unfair.

Just imagine that you have managed to stop Cavaliers being shown, ( is this what you really want to achieve?)

How do you then make all the commerical kennels that churn out cavailers start to health test properly, because most do not MRI scan their stock, and when I have made enquiries the best I get is "Yes the puppies have been vet checked and wormed" And they come with a puppy pack and some food!!!:( And all my stock are healthy.

Bet, have you telephoned people that advertise on these puppy websites to find out exactly what health tests are done? It's very depressing.


WHEN WILL CAVALIER BREEDERS UNDERSTAND!!!


Davecav.

You do not really have understood the Point I am making ,that the Cavalier Show Breeders depend on the Cavalier Buying Public to buy their Surplus Cavaliers.

Who is going to buy those Surplus Cavaliers if not the Cavalier Buying Public, so perhaps you can tell where will those Cavaliers not needed go.

Is this not all the more reason why those Cavalier Breeders who do not want the MRI Scans to be being Publicised in the KC's Breed Supplement be done for the Benefit of the Cavalier Buying Public.

These are the exact words which are still on the UK CLUB's ,unless some-one gets them REMOVED!!!

The Feb.3rd Meeting was to discuss

The KC's Intention , was to that they wanted the BUYERS OF CAVALIERS to be HAVING THE ACCESSIBILTY of INFORMATION ,OPENESS AND TRANSPARENCY .

This Meeting was about the PUPLICATION of THE MRI SCANS in THE KENNEL CLUB'S BREED SUPPLEMENT.

As usual you have twisted my words, what I am saying is that the Surplus Cavaliers from Cavalier Show Breeders ,are bought by the the Cavalier buying Public.

Bet

sins
20th April 2011, 12:47 PM
If the cavalier public stopped buying cavaliers from show breeders Bet,then the show breeders would stop breeding...unlike commercial breeders who see puppies as units to be shifted from their premises and would simply cuts prices and cut production costs also during times of reduced demand.
Any gaps in the market left by retiring show breeders would immediately be filled by a few truckloads of Puppy farmed stock, crossing from Ireland or the Welsh PFs would up production for a season or two.
Unregistered cavaliers are now being advertised in Ireland on a well know website for as little as €80 - €100. (Approx £70 - £80.)
So boycotting showbreeders over non publication of MRI results would be bordering on insanity.
Instead we should be delighted to see breeders scanning,testing and forwarding results to the AHT.
and these are the people we should be working with and buying our puppies from.
Not boycotting them over the behaviour of people you've fallen out with in the past.
Sins

Brian M
20th April 2011, 01:33 PM
Hello DaveCav

I think we all understand that there is absolutely nothing any of us can do to influence in any way any of the commercial breeders / puppy farmers apart from of course having the sense not to buy from them .What we are trying to do is influence were we can the breeding attitude of many club/show people, who do depend on the pet people to purchase the approximate 80% of puppies they produce and do not need due to them not being of their required standard .They say they are not in it for the money and operate at a loss and I do believe them and understand that they do love the breed but they also must realise that they do need us to purchase the pups they do not want . All of my four came from Cavalier Club members and as I purchased each one my knowledge of what to ask and look for became greater ,but only thanks to places like CT educating me .And as for the contemptuous remark about "Pet Owners" wanting to see reasults for me it just emphasis's what ignorant people some of them are, and they in their positions of club power bully all others even fellow show people who dare speak out who do not share their blinkered death wish view .
How can they not see that by not fully embracing the MVD breeding protocol and the BVA/KC Scheme with its full transparency that it is only them and not the pet buying public who are subjecting many of our beloved Cavaliers to a life time of pain and suffering and it is pet owners who have to care for and love these poor souls with the added burden of a huge amount of cost .
Some of us are club members and of course will show how we feel ,and vote for other members who are fully health conscious in future elections. The pet owning health conscious public will prevail and the old dinosaurs of the past will disappear and be replaced by modern forward thinking breeders in tandem with researchers ,I just hope they will be in time.
There is no obsession with show people ,our only obsession is for happy healthy Cavaliers.

Brian M
20th April 2011, 01:51 PM
Hi

Having just read Sins post I fully agree with her and would also confirm that if and when I buy another Cavalier for a pet it would only be bought from a fully health conscious breeder and if that breeder also shows that is fine and that I would never ever consider buying from any other source ,so I am more than happy to purchase from ,support and help in any way I can any Cavalier breeder ,club member or show person provided they breed to all the required standards .And I also agree with Sins that the future is with the breeders and we should be working with them them but I also wish they were working more with us .:)

Tania
20th April 2011, 02:00 PM
We can’t stop all the Puppy Buyers buying from Commercial/Puppy Farm type breeders but we can certainly have a go trying to educate people. I run adverts on some of the commercial websites,
I have had several enquiries for Cavalier Puppies. Nothing would please me more than to direct the purchaser to The Cavalier Club! It would make life easier if we could work with all the clubs, beating the same drum!

sins
20th April 2011, 02:25 PM
Tania,
I would have no hesitation in sending a prospective puppy buyer to the Cavalier club.
Just tell them to ask the puppy register coordinator to give them contact details of breeders who have at minimum,scanned parents,heart and eye tested and litter screened the puppies.Breeders fill out the form below in order to place their puppies on the register, and if someone specifically asks for breeders who have filled out the health sections,I'm told that every effort is made to assist them.
http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/puppy/puppy_form.pdf

There are increasing numbers of breeders who test for everything.
Of course finding them is the tough part.
I've also had some good news just a few minutes ago.Holly's half brother and sister(same dam) have just been graded A this morning, bred from A parents.
For breeders who have been scanning for a while and taking the advice of the neurologists..just give them a chance and see what they can do over the next generation or two before writing off the breed.
I know it's hard to remain optimistic at times but there will always be political turmoil.
What matters above all else is the cavaliers themselves,that they are bred in such a way that they're given the maximum chance of a normal healthy life.
Sins

Margaret C
20th April 2011, 03:11 PM
I've also had some good news just a few minutes ago.Holly's half brother and sister(same dam) have just been graded A this morning, bred from A parents.
For breeders who have been scanning for a while and taking the advice of the neurologists..just give them a chance and see what they can do over the next generation or two before writing off the breed.


Wonderful news about Holly's half brother and sister. A result that rewards a responsible breeder who is doing his best for his puppies and the breed.

I describe well informed pet buyers as 'Our Private Army'
If they know how to read the certificates and to check the age of the cavalier parents, then they are giving a powerful message to every breeder they question.

It is an even more powerful message when they refuse to buy from those that have not followed the guidelines.

I hope Tania won't mind me saying that together we have produced some simple leaflets to be given out from her stall. A sort of early warning system.

If someone tells us they are thinking of buying a cavalier, then we hope that our leaflet may make them cautious who they buy from.



What matters above all else is the cavaliers themselves,that they are bred in such a way that they're given the maximum chance of a normal healthy life.


That needs to be in written in letters 10 feet tall.

Bet
20th April 2011, 03:30 PM
Wonderful news about Holly's half brother and sister. A result that rewards a responsible breeder who is doing his best for his puppies and the breed.

I describe well informed pet buyers as 'Our Private Army'
If they know how to read the certificates and to check the age of the cavalier parents, then they are giving a powerful message to every breeder they question.

It is an even more powerful message when they refuse to buy from those that have not followed the guidelines.

I hope Tania won't mind me saying that together we have produced some simple leaflets to be given out from her stall. A sort of early warning system.

If someone tells us they are thinking of buying a cavalier, then we hope that our leaflet may make them cautious who they buy from.



That needs to be in written in letters 10 feet tall.


WHEN WILL CAVALIER BREEDERS UNDERSTAND !!!!


That's great news SINS, about your Cavaliers.

And THANK YOU MARGARET and TANIA for all you are doing to make Prospective Cavalier Buyers aware about where to go to get a Cavalier Puppy that has been Bred by a Cavalier Breeder who is following the Breeding Guidelines to try and Hinder the Early Onset of SM and MVD.

Maybe now the Show Cavalier Breeders will understand not all , but some at least , that they are involved in Breeding for the Cavalier Pet Market, that that is where many of their Surplus Cavaliers are sold to.

The Cavalier Show Breeders just could not afford to keep all their Surplus Cavaliers ,so where else do they look for to sell those Cavaliers but the Cavalier Pet Market.

THIS IS ALL THE MORE REASON TO BE FOLLOWING THE CAVALIER BREEDING GUIDELINES.

Bet

Bet
20th April 2011, 03:46 PM
WHEN WILL CAVALIER BREEDERS UNDERSTAND !!!!


That's great news SINS, about your Cavaliers.

And THANK YOU MARGARET and TANIA for all you are doing to make Prospective Cavalier Buyers aware about where to go to get a Cavalier Puppy that has been Bred by a Cavalier Breeder who is following the Breeding Guidelines to try and Hinder the Early Onset of SM and MVD.

Maybe now the Show Cavalier Breeders will understand not all , but some at least , that they are involved in Breeding for the Cavalier Pet Market, that that is where many of their Surplus Cavaliers are sold to.

The Cavalier Show Breeders just could not afford to keep all their Surplus Cavaliers ,so where else do they look for to sell those Cavaliers but the Cavalier Pet Market.

THIS IS ALL THE MORE REASON TO BE FOLLOWING THE CAVALIER BREEDING GUIDELINES.

Bet



WHEN WILL CAVALIER BREEDERS UNDERSTAND !!!!!


Forgot to say this in my Previous Post,it is so very Appropriate to this Discussion,.

IT IS NOT ABOUT CAVALIER SHOW BREEDERS DITCHING THE DESIRE TO WIN TITLES .

IT IS ABOUT ENSURING THAT THEIR CAVALIERS ARE CAPABLE OF WINNING TITLES ,ARE ALSO CAPABLE OF HAVING THE CHANCE OF HEALTHY ,LONGER LIVES ,when their Surplus Cavalier Stock is sold to Cavalier Pet Homes.

Bet

anniemac
20th April 2011, 04:11 PM
I know it's hard to remain optimistic at times but there will always be political turmoil.
What matters above all else is the cavaliers themselves,that they are bred in such a way that they're given the maximum chance of a normal healthy life.
Sins

Thank you Sins. I know it has now turned to not show breeders but those winning titles. Can we please stop and think about what Sins said. It really is upsetting to those with Cavaliers with SM, who instead of being supporting, more are focused on the show breeders and politics it seems.

I think education is key and to point people to the right information. I have no idea is Champions are ones that do not follow health protocols or not. I do know that they do have a health confirmation class in the USA.

Health & Conformation: Dogs 5 years and older with an OFA certificate that shows an OFA registry number and states that the dog has not evidence of hip displaysia after 2 years of age and certified clear within 1 year of the postmark closing date for that show of the following diseases: Heart - by a board certified cardiologist; Patellar Luxation - by a licensed veterinarian or via an OFA certificate; Eyes - by CERF of by a board certified veterinary opthalmologist's exam sheet indicating that the eyes are "normal". Copies of the 4 certificates must accompany the entry form for any dog entering this class.

SM is not as simple but can we focus on what one CAN do, including having your own Cavaliers checked for Heart Murmers etc. at shows or just drop this subject of Champions etc.

anniemac
20th April 2011, 04:48 PM
Btw, making sure to by from breeders that scan, educate, follow protocols and most important, tell people that no matter what there is a chance to have a puppy with SM, yet they are doing what they can to help reduce any health problems MVD, SM, Eyes, etc by following all recommended protocols

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anniemac
20th April 2011, 04:49 PM
And for Rod, in the USA, the Original MVD protocol

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Kate H
20th April 2011, 05:06 PM
Sins wrote: There are increasing numbers of breeders who test for everything.


In a way, their job has been made harder by the new DNA tests for Curly coat/dry eye and Episodic falling. A friend who works extremely hard to breed healthy Cavaliers pointed out (gloomily!) that if, when she tests her breeding bitch, she comes up as a carrier for one or both of these diseases, she then has to find a dog to mate her to who

is a clear A for SM
ideally has parents over 5 who are both clear A for SM
doesn't have a heart murmur
ideally has parents over 5 who don't have heart murmurs
is himself over 4-5 years old
is not a carrier for dry eye
is not a carrier for episodic falling
I wonder how much choice she will have?

But it is possible to breed away from both SM and MVD - this is why we get so frustrated with the breeders who just can't be bothered, and why those who are trying (often successfully, but at considerable financial cost) to do it need all our support.

Kate, Oliver and Aled

anniemac
20th April 2011, 05:51 PM
Sins wrote: There are increasing numbers of breeders who test for everything.


In a way, their job has been made harder by the new DNA tests for Curly coat/dry eye and Episodic falling. A friend who works extremely hard to breed healthy Cavaliers pointed out (gloomily!) that if, when she tests her breeding bitch, she comes up as a carrier for one or both of these diseases, she then has to find a dog to mate her to who

is a clear A for SM
ideally has parents over 5 who are both clear A for SM
doesn't have a heart murmur
ideally has parents over 5 who don't have heart murmurs
is himself over 4-5 years old
is not a carrier for dry eye
is not a carrier for episodic falling
I wonder how much choice she will have?

But it is possible to breed away from both SM and MVD - this is why we get so frustrated with the breeders who just can't be bothered, and why those who are trying (often successfully, but at considerable financial cost) to do it need all our support.

Kate, Oliver and Aled

You forgot hips and patellas which is something breeders do here.

I know I'm forgetting something. I am no genetics expert but I feel It would be impossible for any breed if there was a genetic test for every condition, to find a dog that doesn't carry some genes. I would imagine the hope would be to find a best match. It all seems so easy but its not black and white. That is why I am so glad I'm not a breeder. Thanks to those who take the time and care that it takes to breed a litter.

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GroomerGirl
20th April 2011, 06:00 PM
Honestly? I LOVE dogs but I'd never show them. Too much hassle. And I can't be the only one who would only be too happy to buy surplus Cavaliers. My current one is show quality but she's happy as a pet. That just depresses me that Cavalier breeders only care about show quality.

Margaret C
20th April 2011, 08:02 PM
You forgot hips and patellas which is something breeders do here.

I know I'm forgetting something. I am no genetics expert but I feel It would be impossible for any breed if there was a genetic test for every condition, to find a dog that doesn't carry some genes. I would imagine the hope would be to find a best match. It all seems so easy but its not black and white. That is why I am so glad I'm not a breeder. Thanks to those who take the time and care that it takes to breed a litter.

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As discussed elsewhere, hips and patellas are not part of any UK cavalier health testing list.

Perhaps they should be but, as far as I know as a long serving health representative, there are no figures that would support a claim they are significant problems in the UK cavalier population.

There is a new survelliance study being piloted that should help establish just what diseases are the main issues in each breed, and we could find joint problems are a hidden problem, but until then Kate's list shows how much there is for breeders to juggle with already.

You are right about finding a 'best match' This is what the EBV Scheme will eventually give us

Bet
20th April 2011, 08:04 PM
You forgot hips and patellas which is something breeders do here.

I know I'm forgetting something. I am no genetics expert but I feel It would be impossible for any breed if there was a genetic test for every condition, to find a dog that doesn't carry some genes. I would imagine the hope would be to find a best match. It all seems so easy but its not black and white. That is why I am so glad I'm not a breeder. Thanks to those who take the time and care that it takes to breed a litter.

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WHEN WILL THE CAVALIER BREEDERS UNDERSTAND !!!!!


All I have done is pass on the Comments made by the Dog Advisory Council here in Britain, and connected them to the Turmoil in the CKCS CLUB because some Breeders are so Blinkered that they are trying to withold the Publication of the MRI Scan Results to be Published in the Kennel Club's BRS for Prospective Cavalier Buyers to be able to see .

What the Advisory Council have said, just cannot be Glossed over.

They are going to have a Big Say in the Future of Dog Breeding in Britain.

All the Huffing and Puffing in the World is not going to Alter this Fact what-ever some Cavalier Breeders say.

Those Cavalier Breeders will have no Control in the Out-Come about what the Dog Advisory Council says.


Bet

Margaret C
20th April 2011, 10:58 PM
There is a new survelliance study being piloted that should help establish just what diseases are the main issues in each breed, and we could find joint problems are a hidden problem, but until then Kate's list shows how much there is for breeders to juggle with already.



The study mentioned in the quote is this one.............

"The Royal Veterinary College (RVC), in collaboration with the University of Sydney, is undertaking a nationwide survey of small animal disease. The aims of this project are to investigate the range and frequency of small animal health problems seen by veterinary surgeons working in general practice in the United Kingdom and highlight major risk factors for these conditions.
We are doing this through the routine capture of first opinion clinical data via electronic patient records"....

http://www.rvc.ac.uk/VEctAR/

The need to gather these so important figures is being addressed in other countries.
In America a new University of Georgia study provides a comprehensive look at causes of death in more than 80 breeds.
http://www.lifewithdogs.tv:80/2011/04/landmark-study-reveals-breed-specific-causes-of-death-in-dogs/

Karlin
21st April 2011, 12:02 AM
I know it has now turned to not show breeders but those winning titles. Can we please stop and think about what Sins said. It really is upsetting to those with Cavaliers with SM, who instead of being supporting, more are focused on the show breeders and politics it seems.

SM is not as simple but can we focus on what one CAN do, including having your own Cavaliers checked for Heart Murmers etc. at shows or just drop this subject of Champions etc.


I cannot disagree more.

Many of us with dogs with SM do not find it irrelevant or upsetting that there should be a focus on how champions are chosen and judged, as this is directly relevant to the health of the breed. Winning males in particular have a massive genetic influence because such males are used over and over and over at stud and can sire thousands of puppies. With no meaningful health evaluation linked to awarding championships, that means generations of dogs can be affected by problems not visible to the eye.

I do not think Sins is saying that anyone should be dropping such discussions.

There are other discussion threads if anyone prefers to focus on support for SM dog owners-- this thread, as its title indicates, is focused on how breeders breed and so including a discussion of how champions are chosen is directly relevant to the topic.

A discussion of support for SM dog owners would take it off-topic and so is more appropriate for a different thread. There are many such threads ongoing in the SM forum at all times, for example. If this topic of discussion here does not suit anyone, please just avoid the thread or similar topics, as there are undoubtedly many other topics to choose from and contribute to on the board that would be more personally interesting, relevant or comfortable. :thmbsup:

anniemac
21st April 2011, 01:30 AM
As discussed elsewhere, hips and patellas are not part of any UK cavalier health testing list.

Perhaps they should be but, as far as I know as a long serving health representative, there are no figures that would support a claim they are significant problems in the UK cavalier population.

There is a new survelliance study being piloted that should help establish just what diseases are the main issues in each breed, and we could find joint problems are a hidden problem, but until then Kate's list shows how much there is for breeders to juggle with already.

You are right about finding a 'best match' This is what the EBV Scheme will eventually give us

The reason I mentioned that to add was because they are specifically mentioned under then puppy buying guide here and on rods site. It has nothing to do with anything other than there are several conditions that would be tough. Hopefully the ebv scheme and what you mentioned would help. Will not comment more on this thread but just wanted to add that it is a difficult task breeders that are trying to breed healthy puppies have.

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Bet
21st April 2011, 12:22 PM
The reason I mentioned that to add was because they are specifically mentioned under then puppy buying guide here and on rods site. It has nothing to do with anything other than there are several conditions that would be tough. Hopefully the ebv scheme and what you mentioned would help. Will not comment more on this thread but just wanted to add that it is a difficult task breeders that are trying to breed healthy puppies have.

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WHEN WILL CAVALIER BREEDERS UNDERSTAND !!!!!


Hope it's OK adding this comment which has just appeared in this week's DOG WORLD

It's a continuing Article about the Lead Story in last week's DOG WORLD, about the ADVISORY COUNCIL's recognition should be ,,that among Breeders that they are Breeding Pets ,not Breeding for Showing, this is what the ADVISORY COUNCIL's Members have Agreed

There was the usual complaints from Show Breeders about the Stance the Advisory Council is taking about this, but I think this comment sums this up which said,that it has to be Acknowledged that ,it is the Pet Owners who are Underpinning the WORLD OF SHOW BREEDING.

Where are the Surplus Cavalier Puppies sold to from the Cavalier Show Breeders here in Britain,all those Puppies just cannot be being sold to other Cavalier Owners who are Showing Cavaliers Abroad. The Surplus Cavalier Puppies must be going to Cavalier Pet Owners.

This Comment further said that ,that Pet Owners are are just Buying VETS BILLS.

Well, in the Cavalier World ,many Pet Cavalier Owners know all about that with Price of Medication for SM and MVD.


Bet

Kate H
21st April 2011, 12:39 PM
Without in any way downplaying the problems we face as Cavalier owners (all owners, whether they breed, show, do agility or other sports, or simply enjoy), we can sometimes get so focused on our particular problems that we lose perspective on the wider world. In the St Bernard breed notes in Our Dogs there are two letters that could have been written by most of us! St Bernards are one of the 15 breeds that the KC is focusing on for health in the show ring - telling judges to dismiss any dogs with obvious health problems, and asking for veterinary inspection of the top winners at shows. Both the letters appeal for health issues to be taken seriously, otherwise St Bs will be extinct before long; breeders are mating too early, not doing health checks, not attending health seminars, showing dogs with health problems, not being honest with puppy buyers, not giving buyers of their breeding enough support when things go wrong...

All sounds depressingly familiar - and comes up from time to time in a wide variety of breeds (listen to Border Collie people on epilepsy!). We are certainly not alone in our problems, and some breeds have almost as many problems as Cavaliers have. So I'm not sure that Cavalier breeders are necessarily outstandingly bad; all breeders in all breeds (like all humans everywhere) are a mixed bag of the good, the bad, and the indifferent. We need to give the good breeders all the support we can and steer puppy buyers in their direction.

Kate, Oliver and Aled

Karlin
21st April 2011, 05:02 PM
Well said, Kate. While for obvious reasons we focus on Cavaliers here, there is a much much broader issue regarding pedigree dog health and dog breeding generally–and that includes the so-called designer crossbreeds. Pedigree Dogs Exposed, don't forget, was not just about Cavaliers–it focused on a number of breeds that were used as examples of where serious health and quality-of-life problems were developing because of the aims of the show ring and changing tastes in appearance.

As a result of that program, there have already been inquiries at senior government level in the UK into pedigree dog health, as well as companion animal welfare. But again, these inquiries and the dog breeding advisory Council is not just focused on Cavaliers, it is focused on all breeds.

St. Bernards are indeed another breed in trouble, with a very short average lifespan and a growing problem with poor temperament due to poor breeding, on top of health problems.

And the problem of breeders wanting to avoid having to do anything serious about health problems and accept that there are serious genetic issues in their breed and/or their own lines also has a very long history.

The famous dog geneticist Padgett referred to it as Omerta–a Mafia like code of silence that no one will break.

For more, see this must-read famous essay written back in 2004 by a dog breeder -- which sadly is going to sound *all too familiar* as well...:

http://letsdiscussjudging.com/Omerta.html

Here are the closing paragraphs, which sound pretty much like so many posts we have made here about cavalier breeders. :( That is why I wish people would stop thinking arguing for health in a way that focuses on breeders is about 'politics' against breeders :sl*p:. It is simply where change must happen. But please folks, never forget that puppy buyers, meaning you and me, ALSO have a total responsibility to only support good, testing breeders or we too are just as unethical and thoughtless as those who breed with no care for health. Too many BUYERS are willing to make a selfish, breed-destroying compromise purchase on the basis of price or convenience. :x


BREAK THE SILENCE

What can we do to break the deadly Code of Silence? The majority, if not all, breed clubs have a code of ethics that require members to breed healthy dogs. One of the places to start is with the clubs. Instead of being social institutions or “good ole boy” clubs, these breed organizations could begin upholding the very real goal of protecting the future of the breed by demanding and requiring that genetic testing be undertaken prior to breeding. Far more serious than breeding a sixteen-month old bitch is the practice of breeding without taking every possible safeguard that genetic health is a priority. Yet, in many clubs “poor breeders” are identified by the age at which they breed or the frequency in which they breed rather than the very real criteria that proof of health be mandatory. Take the emphasis off winning – how many clubs determine “breeder of the year” based on the number of progeny that wins? Are there clubs that actually require that the breeder also must show proof that they are doing all they can do to ensure the future of the breed?

We can break the silence by commending those with the courage and determination to talk about problems, share successes and knowledge instead of ostracizing them. Omerta fails if every puppy buyer and stud dog user demands that proof of genetic testing is shown. The Code of Silence fails when we realize that it is not enough to breed winning dogs or to command the highest price for puppies or to have a stud dog that is used fifty, sixty, a hundred times; we must take back the passion with which we all first embraced our breeds and passionately work with determination toward a future where the numbers of genetic disorders are reduced each year.

If those you know breed without testing, ask yourself why – is it lack of courage in perhaps finding a carrier within their breeding stock? Is it because they fear a financial loss if they test? Is it because they truly believe that their dogs couldn’t possibly be less than perfect? Is it because they fear they will lose their “top breeder” standing if they admit that there are problems that need working on? Is it because they fear that it will be harder to breed beautiful and healthy dogs? Or have they lost the passion with which they first loved the breed while they were climbing the road to winning success? Or, more sadly, is it because they really just don’t care about that which they cannot actually see?

BETTER FUTURE

It is hard work and takes great courage to develop a breeding program using scientific methods and tests, but the hope of a better future should drive us all to that very commitment. The key is being able to work together without fear of whispers or silence. Omerta, the code of silence, can be broken if more of us decide that we are not going to tolerate the quiet any longer.

Bet
21st April 2011, 07:42 PM
Well said, Kate. While for obvious reasons we focus on Cavaliers here, there is a much much broader issue regarding pedigree dog health and dog breeding generally–and that includes the so-called designer crossbreeds. Pedigree Dogs Exposed, don't forget, was not just about Cavaliers–it focused on a number of breeds that were used as examples of where serious health and quality-of-life problems were developing because of the aims of the show ring and changing tastes in appearance.

As a result of that program, there have already been inquiries at senior government level in the UK into pedigree dog health, as well as companion animal welfare. But again, these inquiries and the dog breeding advisory Council is not just focused on Cavaliers, it is focused on all breeds.

St. Bernards are indeed another breed in trouble, with a very short average lifespan and a growing problem with poor temperament due to poor breeding, on top of health problems.

And the problem of breeders wanting to avoid having to do anything serious about health problems and accept that there are serious genetic issues in their breed and/or their own lines also has a very long history.

The famous dog geneticist Padgett referred to it as Omerta–a Mafia like code of silence that no one will break.

For more, see this must-read famous essay written back in 2004 by a dog breeder -- which sadly is going to sound *all too familiar* as well...:

http://letsdiscussjudging.com/Omerta.html

Here are the closing paragraphs, which sound pretty much like so many posts we have made here about cavalier breeders. :( That is why I wish people would stop thinking arguing for health in a way that focuses on breeders is about 'politics' against breeders :sl*p:. It is simply where change must happen. But please folks, never forget that puppy buyers, meaning you and me, ALSO have a total responsibility to only support good, testing breeders or we too are just as unethical and thoughtless as those who breed with no care for health. Too many BUYERS are willing to make a selfish, breed-destroying compromise purchase on the basis of price or convenience. :x


WHEN WILL CAVALIER BREEDERS UNDERSTAND !!!!!


Karlin,

I have just read the full OMERTA : The Breeders' Code of Silence Article.


It is sure worth a Read by every-one who follows what is on this List.

Yes ,as the Article mentions ,most Modern -Day Breeders and the Mafia have the Code of Silence in Common

I know that Breeders of other Breeds are involved with this Article, but I only know about the Cavalier Breed having worked so long with their Pedigrees ,particularly MVD Pedigrees, and how true it can be said for our Cavaliers that finally Two Healthy Cavaliers ,but Gene-Defective Carriers combine to that First Tell -Tale Affected Off-Spring.

That time and time again Geneticists tell us how this is Possible.

I just do not know about other Breeds and can only mention our Cavaliers ,because the Researchers say that there are Many Cavalier Carriers around with MVD Genes.

To mention Cavaliers again, they are the Only TOY BREED with such an Early On-Set Type of MVD.

I wonder if the Members of the Advisory Council have read this Article, with their Comments in last week's DOG WORLD ,it sure woild be worth their while.


Bet

Bet
22nd April 2011, 11:25 AM
Without in any way downplaying the problems we face as Cavalier owners (all owners, whether they breed, show, do agility or other sports, or simply enjoy), we can sometimes get so focused on our particular problems that we lose perspective on the wider world. In the St Bernard breed notes in Our Dogs there are two letters that could have been written by most of us! St Bernards are one of the 15 breeds that the KC is focusing on for health in the show ring - telling judges to dismiss any dogs with obvious health problems, and asking for veterinary inspection of the top winners at shows. Both the letters appeal for health issues to be taken seriously, otherwise St Bs will be extinct before long; breeders are mating too early, not doing health checks, not attending health seminars, showing dogs with health problems, not being honest with puppy buyers, not giving buyers of their breeding enough support when things go wrong...

All sounds depressingly familiar - and comes up from time to time in a wide variety of breeds (listen to Border Collie people on epilepsy!). We are certainly not alone in our problems, and some breeds have almost as many problems as Cavaliers have. So I'm not sure that Cavalier breeders are necessarily outstandingly bad; all breeders in all breeds (like all humans everywhere) are a mixed bag of the good, the bad, and the indifferent. We need to give the good breeders all the support we can and steer puppy buyers in their direction.

Kate, Oliver and Aled


WHEN WILL CAVALIER BREEDERS UNDERSTAND !!!!!


Yes Kate,

The Ball is is in the Court of the UK CKCS CLUB'S Committee, they only need to put a List on the CLUB'S WEB SITE OF CAVALIER PUPPIES AVALIABLE FOR SALE from Cavalier Breeders who have Health Tested and Followed the Breeding Guidelines for MVD and SM.

Nothing could be Simpler than that.

Why Cannot this be being done, perhaps some-body can Tell me.!

Bet

Davecav
22nd April 2011, 12:26 PM
Bet

If I were to have puppies that I wanted to find a loving and forever home for, I would fill in the Puppy registration form on the CKCS Club website and send it to Sylvia Lymer who runs the puppy register. There are questions on the form re health testing Eyes/hearts/MRI and the last dates these were done.

Anyone looking for a puppy has just to telephone the Puppy Register Co-ordinator to find out who has puppies and whether they are from health tested stock.

What could be easier?

Some people might not want their puppies to be listed on a Website for all to see. You probably get some pretty dodgy people ringing up who are total time wasters. At least if potential puppy buyers have to go through the co-ordinator first, it means they are genuine potential buyers.

sins
22nd April 2011, 01:44 PM
I agree with Davecav.
The Cavalier Club breed register is very valuable service both for pet buyers and breeders.It's a good starting point to start searching for your puppy.The register coordinator does this voluntarily.
Pet buyers can also check out the kennel Club "Find a puppy" service.
http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/psar/buy/find/puppy/Cavalier+King+Charles+Spaniel.findapuppy
Just be careful here though....Just because they advertise on here doesn't mean they test routinely or are even ethical breeders.
Some breeders advertise the tests that they carry out.Some will say they do all three tests and one breeder states that parents and grandparents are Mri scanned.
Look for the BC symbol also under the advertisement which tells you that the breeder is a member of one or more breed clubs.
You can also contact Margaret C on this site who has details of breeders who say they test.
Sins

Karlin
22nd April 2011, 02:13 PM
Puppy registers can be very useful as a very basic starting point. However, that is really all they are because there is no way for the club to verify that anyone is doing what they say they are doing and testing is not mandatory. The best approach is, if you get the name of a couple of breeders who are said to be testing, use the puppy buying guides linked to here to find out exactly what tests you want to be asking about, and ask to see the actual certificates and the results and then discuss those with the breeder. Any testing, reputable breeder will be happy to go through the results and their implication.

But the fact that someone is saying they are testing cannot be considered a reliable indicator either that they are, or that they are using those results responsibly. The burden is still on the puppy buyer to verify what has been said and to make sure the breeder actually has certificates that prove the dog has been tested, and to determine the actual results. Buyers should also be checking at what age the parents were bred and keep in mind that a clear heart on a breeding dog does not mean the breeder is following the MVD protocol, unless you are able to also see a clear heart certificate from the parents of each parent dog–these should indicate that all four grandparents were heart clear at least until age 5. :thmbsup:

Davecav
22nd April 2011, 03:24 PM
I agree totally - Always ask to see the certificates etc. A breeder with nothing to hide will be more than happy to show buyers - and give copies.

Bet
22nd April 2011, 07:22 PM
Puppy registers can be very useful as a very basic starting point. However, that is really all they are because there is no way for the club to verify that anyone is doing what they say they are doing and testing is not mandatory. The best approach is, if you get the name of a couple of breeders who are said to be testing, use the puppy buying guides linked to here to find out exactly what tests you want to be asking about, and ask to see the actual certificates and the results and then discuss those with the breeder. Any testing, reputable breeder will be happy to go through the results and their implication.

But the fact that someone is saying they are testing cannot be considered a reliable indicator either that they are, or that they are using those results responsibly. The burden is still on the puppy buyer to verify what has been said and to make sure the breeder actually has certificates that prove the dog has been tested, and to determine the actual results. Buyers should also be checking at what age the parents were bred and keep in mind that a clear heart on a breeding dog does not mean the breeder is following the MVD protocol, unless you are able to also see a clear heart certificate from the parents of each parent dog–these should indicate that all four grandparents were heart clear at least until age 5. :thmbsup:


WHEN WILL CAVALIER BREEDERS UNDERSTAND !!!!!


Yes this is what the saving of the Cavalier Breed boils down to, get to the Cavalier Buying Public, tell them what a Sick Breed the Cavaliers are, and to Steer Clear of Cavaliers unless the Cavalier Buyer can see Proof that the Cavalier Breeder is following the Breeding Guidelines for MVD which were issued by the UK CKCS CLUB in 1987 , and Recently for SM..

It's the Power of the Buyers of Cavaliers who will have the last say as to whether our Cavaliers have a Future or not.

Evidence of this is happening ,because the Registrations of Cavaliers by the Kennel Club has fallen by around 25% in the Past 2 Years.

Now down to around 8.000 from over 11.000.

I know that this will not Guarantee that their Cavalier won't succumb in the Future to either of those Horrible Diseases,
but at least the Cavalier Buyer will have confidence that the Breeder they are dealing with ,is doing all She or He can by following the Breeding Guidelines, which is not evident by some of the Litters Registered at Present in the KC'S BRS


Bet

Bet
25th April 2011, 12:29 PM
WHEN WILL CAVALIER BREEDERS UNDERSTAND !!!!!


Yes this is what the saving of the Cavalier Breed boils down to, get to the Cavalier Buying Public, tell them what a Sick Breed the Cavaliers are, and to Steer Clear of Cavaliers unless the Cavalier Buyer can see Proof that the Cavalier Breeder is following the Breeding Guidelines for MVD which were issued by the UK CKCS CLUB in 1987 , and Recently for SM..

It's the Power of the Buyers of Cavaliers who will have the last say as to whether our Cavaliers have a Future or not.

Evidence of this is happening ,because the Registrations of Cavaliers by the Kennel Club has fallen by around 25% in the Past 2 Years.


Now down to around 8.000 from over 11.000.

I know that this will not Guarantee that their Cavalier won't succumb in the Future to either of those Horrible Diseases,
but at least the Cavalier Buyer will have confidence that the Breeder they are dealing with ,is doing all She or He can by following the Breeding Guidelines, which is not evident by some of the Litters Registered at Present in the KC'S BRS


Bet


WHEN WILL CAVALIER BREEDERS UNDERSTAND !!!!!

Is this the Final Nail for the Survival of our Cavalier Breed ,to know that over 90% of Cavaliers have CM, ..

This condition is Chacterised by Brains being Too Big, and Skulls Too Small.

That 85 Whelps which were Researched for the Foetal Tissue Rsearch, all had CM.

It must mean that just about every Cavalier is a Carrier of CM Genes ,on Top of Most being Affected by CM.

Also the Cavaliers are Battling their MVD Problem ,which has 50 % of them at 5-6 Years of Age with a Heart Murmur.

The Research Cardiologists have said that Many Cavaliers are also Carriers of MVD Genes.

The Cavalier Breed has to get Fresh Genes from Some-Where.

Is this what the Kennel Club has now realized ,that the Cavaliers are about Finished and they are now considering Out- Crossing?

Did any of us ever think our Beloved Cavaliers would come to this?

Bet

Karlin
25th April 2011, 01:03 PM
I don't think they are 'finished', Bet -- but the breed needs better friends in many of the breeders who remain more focused on personal achievement in the show world or making money off puppies than in guardianship of the breed itself.

Outcrossing remains controversial and many researchers do feel this is NOT necessary IF breeders tested, shared information and focused on lowering incidence of the serious health problems that threaten the breed's survival.

I think there's a serious argument for doing something less drastic than outcrossing -- starting to scan/test cavaliers coming from pet market-focused breeders for good candidates to bring into the gene pool. I know for a fact that many of these dogs have very good scans and also are distant from the 'popular sires' and overbred popular bloodlines that make so many dogs in the show world extremely closely related. For example I know of one such breeder who does scan and auscultate with a cardiologist, who follows health protocols and has many A dogs. But finding studs can be extremely difficult because the show world breeders dismiss such breeders and also keep results hidden amongst themselves. Surely a large number of A dogs from diverse lines not immediately connected to show champions is an important resource? One of my own A dogs from a similar situation in Ireland, remains heart clear as well, going on age 8. An extremely fit dog too with great hips, eyes and patellas.

A lot of Irish 'pet breeder' dogs are well distant from the mainstream lines today -- with some going back to some of the now-lost 'good' genetic lines -- and would seem good candidates for such a scheme -- and many are fully IKC registered.

I see the KC has launched a programme to bring in unregistered dogs as well that would eventually give recognition to offspring as fully registered.

I think breeders will need to be far more open minded about ways forward that are more inclusive -- especially if they wish to avoid what will otherwise no doubt be an eventual necessity to outcross to other breeds (a far longer term effort too to address health problems).

Davecav
25th April 2011, 02:24 PM
From what you are saying I deduct that more people who do not have show lines should scan their dogs and heart test, (if not doing so now) and these dogs should then be bred from. Looked at logically we don't need to rely on show breeders and show dogs to take Cavaliers forward? In fact most pet dogs won't come from show breeders. They are only a small portion of Cavaliers across the country/countries.

sins
25th April 2011, 02:44 PM
It's beginning to happen over here.
I just heard this week that another small scale commercial breeder is going the scanning/heart testing route and has been sourcing young stock from the UK/Irish show and non show lines.
Interesting times...
Sins

Karlin
25th April 2011, 03:15 PM
It would be sadly ironic if, after years of complaining by show breeders that pet market breeders sell dogs of lower health quality, it ends up being many pet/commercial breeders who - especially if pet buyers demand it -- end up testing and following protocols in far greater numbers than show breeder/club members. Many of the pet breeders (and many strongly pro-health pet owners) are people who at one time were involved in showing or national clubs and left because of the bitchy and anti-health, pro-winning politics anyway. Many stayed with the breed because they loved cavaliers and some because they wanted to focus on health without the sniping from formal club members. They are hardly large scale, poor quality puppy farmers. But regardless -- many of these people, even the more questionable, undoubtedly could bring in dogs with greater genetic diversity with good scans/hearts at a time when the breed needs this lifeline.

Commercial pressure from the puppy buyer -- and a greater willingness to be influenced by it -- could mean a better quality/better health puppy option may come from the broader market, not the bulk of show breeders. I think many of these breeders, if they started scanning, might find some clear dogs very valuable for the breed, too. As for looks -- well, these pass in fads anyway and anyone with a dog with Sm or in the horrible grip of final stage congestive heart failure will tell any show breeder they'd rather their dog have a head that doesn't quite suit the show ring or a tail carried too high, than endure the suffering of these conditions.

Almost *none* of my wide circle of friends with other breeds and crosses has had to go through the heart-breaking experience almost all of us with cavaliers have gone or will go through -- of *as a norm with this breed*, watching our dogs coughing, passing out, lying exhausted from minimal exertion and struggling on with weeks or months or even years of cardiac failure symptoms that could be minimised if breeders, including some shamefully (or shamelessly) in club committee positions, would stop breeding underage cavaliers, stop ignoring the fact that vet testing hearts is inadequate for breeding, and share results on both breeding age and OLDER dogs whose later heart history would help other breeders make better breeding decisions. And then there are those who won't scan, misinform others on results, or use dogs they know have scanned poorly.

Maybe the KC should be starting with programme of scanning select cavaliers from non-show lines, and work to bring in more of these non-club breeders to focus on breeding for health, rather than contemplating experimental outcrossing at this time.