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Bet
3rd May 2011, 10:17 AM
Just noticed a Photo of an Out Door Cavalier Show where so many of the Cavaliers were in Cages and Covered by Blankets.

Is this the Best way for Cavaliers to be spending their Day since it just been announced in a German Study that Cavaliers are a BRACHCEPHALIC Breed

That this is an Inherited Condition in our Cavalier Breed,that Cavaliers are Pre-disposed to it ,due to the Comparative Short Length of the Cavaliers' Head and Compressed Upper Jaw.

Because of this condition ,the Head's Soft Tissue are not Proportionate to the Shortened Nature of the Skull ,and the Excess Tissues tend to increase Resistance to the Flow of Air through the Upper Airway, Nostrils,Sinuses.Pharynx,and Larynx.

Would we Cavalier Pet Owners Subject our 4 Legged Cavalier Friends to a day being Shut in a Cage and Covered with a Blanket.

I THINK NOT!!!

Bet

sins
3rd May 2011, 11:04 AM
Morning Bet!
After a very long Bank holiday weekend your post about being covered with a blanket in a crate has made me yearn for my bed!
In fact I couldn't imagine anything more idyllic for myself...never mind a cavalier.:p
and if anyone tried to haul me out,I'd snap the hand off them.:badgrin:.
Most cavaliers have a daily routine and if they sleep at home between 10 and 12 like mine do,then they'll happily snooze in a crate at a show.

Sins

Bet
3rd May 2011, 11:22 AM
Morning Bet!
After a very long Bank holiday weekend your post about being covered with a blanket in a crate has made me yearn for my bed!
In fact I couldn't imagine anything more idyllic for myself...never mind a cavalier.:p
and if anyone tried to haul me out,I'd snap the hand off them.:badgrin:.
Most cavaliers have a daily routine and if they sleep at home between 10 and 12 like mine do,then they'll happily snooze in a crate at a show.

Sins


THE CAVALIER OUT DOOR SHOW


If I could answer Sins,

We had been to a Cavalier Show here in Scotland, with all the Gear ,Cages etc, called in at a Scottish Club Party for Cavaliers ,saw all the Cavaliers owned by Cavalier Pet owners ,sitting on their Owner's Knees ,not a Cage in sight, looked over to our Katie Jnr, saw her wee Face looking at us through the Cage , and thought the Show Scene is not for us or our Beloved Cavaliers.

Put Katie Jnr on my Knee like all the other Cavaliers .

We never were at another Cavalier Show.

Bet.

PS, Becky our B/T was at Crufts.

Kate H
3rd May 2011, 11:54 AM
On Easter Monday I worked both my boys at an outdoor obedience show, then scoreboarded for a friend who was judging for the rest of the day. It was hot, sunny and windy. My two spent most of their day in their pop-up fabric crate, which is greyish-silver in colour, which I think reflects the sunlight, and has a black mesh front and strips of mesh along either side. Although the crate was next to my table and partly in the sun, Oliver and Aled stayed really cool all day. They had a short walk at lunchtime (with Oliver in his sun hat to guard against his light phobia), but otherwise snoozed contentedly.

Their fabric crate looks as if it should be hot and stuffy, but actually the most important thing for dogs (especially bracycephalic breeds) in hot weather is to keep them out of the (not very) fresh and hot air and keep the sun off them - which is why people cover their crates with a blanket or reflective material. If the sun is excluded, the darkness within the crate is actually pretty cool - as I keep my house cool by drawing the curtains to keep the sun out. My two in their crate were certainly better off than the dogs who were sitting around on the grass with their owners. And Oliver can get a headache even sitting in the shade if he is looking out at strong sunlight. So perhaps don't jump to conclusions too quickly?

Kate, Oliver and Aled

sins
3rd May 2011, 12:01 PM
But Bet,
Dog showing isn't all about Crates and Crufts!
I can understand if you don't like the hobby of showing dogs and you have your reasons which you're perfectly entitled to.
It's not just to take your dog to compete,but to enjoy the overall spectacle of beautiful, well turned out dogs being shown with pride by their owners.
Of course there are a few bad eggs or people who haven't a clue what shampoo and water is for,but mostly it's a very sporting occasion.
I don't think there's anything unacceptable or unethical in showing dogs and it poses very little risk to the dogs themselves.It's not exactly greyhound racing?
Sins

Cathy T
3rd May 2011, 04:58 PM
The constant negative and critical posts really irk me....I don't normally respond (in fact, don't normally even read them) but this one caught my eye and I couldn't help myself. I don't show, we don't compete in anything but we do take the dogs to numerous outdoor events (dog related and non-dog related) with us. We have a crate.....not a blanket covered crate....but a crate with sides nevertheless. The crate gives them a secure place to relax, there is the ability for air to circulate, and the top keeps the sun off their heads. The dogs spend some time in the crate together, we take them for walks around, we sometimes have all 3 on our laps between the two of us. I don't consider this cruel, they seem to enjoy going to outings with us and it's just not realistic to spend an entire event with 3 dogs on my lap....but I would rather have them with us at social events than sitting inside a closed up house with no outside stimualtion all day.....so we do what we do.

You may not want to attend any of the Cavalier social events I go to because you'll see crates all over the place. They are a place for the dogs to get a little down time, rest up a bit and then come back out and join the party again. In fact, if I leave the crate door open inevitably one of my dogs will go in for a little laydown time.

Bet
3rd May 2011, 06:28 PM
But Bet,
Dog showing isn't all about Crates and Crufts!
I can understand if you don't like the hobby of showing dogs and you have your reasons which you're perfectly entitled to.
It's not just to take your dog to compete,but to enjoy the overall spectacle of beautiful, well turned out dogs being shown with pride by their owners.
Of course there are a few bad eggs or people who haven't a clue what shampoo and water is for,but mostly it's a very sporting occasion.
I don't think there's anything unacceptable or unethical in showing dogs and it poses very little risk to the dogs themselves.It's not exactly greyhound racing?
Sins


THE CAVALIER OUT DOOR SHOW SCENE.


Can the Cavalier Show Scene be classed as a Hobby, when many Cavalier Puppies are sold for around £800?

I would think it is more of a Commercial Business.

Bet

sins
3rd May 2011, 08:02 PM
Granted,there are some top breeders who evidently seem to command top prices for pet puppies and who can also sell show potential stock and have bitches on breeding terms.But for every successful breeder at the top,there's dozens in the middle who might break even, and even more again who operate at a loss,just to pursue their hobby.
I know a few people this year who have scanned their bitch,paid a stud fee,ended up with a singleton instead of a litter and one of those was a c section.
When it comes to health testing,a breeder can pay for as many as 6 or more scans in a year if they have two or more bitches and a stud dog or two.
A lot of my facebook friends write about the price of petrol,entry fees,overnight accommodation,vet bills,worming,it all adds up.
Sins

Davecav
3rd May 2011, 08:24 PM
For most I would say showing Cavaliers is a hobby, and a very expensive one at that.

An entry fee at a Championship show in the UK is around £25 + parking often an extra £5 + Catalogue £5 + petrol :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: round trip of even just 100 miles must be £30

So for a day out with one dog = £65. Do that once a month, and a lot of people do it more often, with a couple or three dogs in tow, and it mounts up.

Anyway this is getting off the subject of dogs at outdoor shows, which I think was comprehesively covered by you Bet last year!

There is nothing that I can see that is wrong with making sure your dog is comofrtable in a cage. The people that show their dogs aren't likely to let them overheat. The very vast majoritiy of these people love their dogs very much and spend a lot of time and effort caring for them.

If you take your argument to its conclusion, then Bet you would be against Cavaliers going out if the sun is shining.

Teresa
3rd May 2011, 09:27 PM
I have only gone to a few shows and have to say I have my girl on my lap but the other dogs I've seen including ones from Cassies breeder have looked very relaxed when spending times in their cages...believe me Bet I wouldn't be backwards coming forwards if I thought a dog was unhappy or stressed...
In their own space with their own blankets away from the hustle most seenm to snooze an hour away quite happily!!

Bet
4th May 2011, 09:46 AM
For most I would say showing Cavaliers is a hobby, and a very expensive one at that.

An entry fee at a Championship show in the UK is around £25 + parking often an extra £5 + Catalogue £5 + petrol :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: round trip of even just 100 miles must be £30

So for a day out with one dog = £65. Do that once a month, and a lot of people do it more often, with a couple or three dogs in tow, and it mounts up.

Anyway this is getting off the subject of dogs at outdoor shows, which I think was comprehesively covered by you Bet last year!

There is nothing that I can see that is wrong with making sure your dog is comofrtable in a cage. The people that show their dogs aren't likely to let them overheat. The very vast majoritiy of these people love their dogs very much and spend a lot of time and effort caring for them.

If you take your argument to its conclusion, then Bet you would be against Cavaliers going out if the sun is shining.


THE CAVALIER OUT DOOR SHOW SCENE.


Just to answer Davecav's Post,no-body is forcing those Breeders he has mentioned to chase Titles .

The other comment I would make ,is that our Cherished Cavaliers were taken for a Walk first thing in th Morning when it was Cool ,then at night when it was Cooler, through the Day when they had to go go for their Toilets it was a case of out and in.

Our House was kept cool by Fans, how is that possible when Cavaliers are covered with a Blanket shut in a Cage and as you have mentioned travelling about 100 miles in a Car.

Because it is now know that about 90% of Cavaliers have CM, which is Chacterised by Brains being Too Big and Skulls Too Small, what Proof do you or any-body else have that this Disease is not causing Distress to Cavaliers being shut in a Cage and being surounded with a Blanket at Out Door Cavalier Shows.

Bet

sins
4th May 2011, 11:02 AM
The only time my cavalier ever became distressed in a crate was while in the vet's waiting room for her 15 month vaccination.She barked,howled,clawed at the door and there was no doubt whatsoever that she wanted out.
I expect she'd do the same at a show if she was upset at being in a crate....

I suppose I better not tell you about the introduction of baby puppy classes for 4 - 6 month olds....Just looking through the show schedule there's quite a few scheduled for the summer months:rolleyes:.
I wonder if Ivy might fancy a few days out !

Sins

Kate H
4th May 2011, 11:26 AM
Most people are driving to shows in the early hours of the morning and driving home in the evening - not in the heat of midday.

Cars have air conditioning. And sun shades.

Blankets work to create warmth if they are in contact with the skin. If there is space for air to move underneath them, they simply create darkness and keep out the sun. Houses in hot countries have small windows and thick walls and are kept dark - and cool. Our western mania for huge windows (and going out in strong sunlight) is ecologically and practically stupid.

With the numbers of Cavaliers being shown, relatively few exhibitors are seriously 'chasing CCs' - they know they have little or no chance of winning them. The majority show because they are proud of their dogs (especially if they have bred them), enjoy the atmosphere of shows and make them a large part of their social life. And yes, a stud dog that wins well is likely to be used more - but very few become champions.

The Cavaliers far more likely to be damaged by poor treatment in hot weather are the overweight pets who get dragged round town in the middle of the day, to open air events and along seaside promenades, and are left in hot cars and not given water regularly. We've all seen them puffing and panting behind their chatting and oblivious owners.

All Cavaliers (all dogs, in fact) need to be watched in hot weather, especially if they have heart problems, but it is ups and downs in air pressure that can make CM/SM sufferers particularly uncomfortable, not hot sunshine as such - a drop in air pressure in wet weather can be just as bad.

Kate, Oliver and Aled

ByFloSin
4th May 2011, 11:59 AM
With respect Bet. I too show my dogs in the heat of summer. The two disabled ones are in a buggy, shaded from the heat, with a towel or space blanket underneath them to keep them cool. The others have battery operated fans to cool and circulate the air passing through their cages, often also covered with the shiny side of a space blanket to deflect the sun. I also take a cool blanket and often a cool coat for them to wear when not in the ring too.

Meanwhile this uncaring owner elects to spend the money she has spent a lifetime earning on show fees and travel and all the other bits and pieces that accompany the world of her beloved Cavaliers because she enjoys showing her dogs, together with the atmosphere and social life.

My dogs, and those of everyone I know, spend their day in cosseted comfort. Why else do you think they spend their comparatively brief time in the ring wagging their tails as fast as they can go?

Bet, so far as I know you haven't shown a dog for years. I don't blame you for being out of date with all that has come onto the market in the past few years, but I do believe that you should think again before condeming others while remaining oblivious of the comforts used but unseen under the blankets.

Sabby
4th May 2011, 05:12 PM
I donít show my dogs but we compete in Rally Obedience and Agility.
Easter weekend was very hot and we competed at a local Agility Show and all of my three had a great day. The car was parked under big trees and in between runs we took them back to the car with all the doors open for the breeze to go through. We put them into their cage where they happily snoozed while we were sitting there having our lunch. Same when we go to Rally obedience competitions. As it is so far we have to set off at 6 oíclock in the morning and donít get back until 9 o clock at night. In summer we normally camp. They always go back to their cage for a sleep and we have a fan for them and also cool coats. I must say my dogs have the best life going everywhere with us and they always enjoy themselves.

Bet
4th May 2011, 06:09 PM
With respect Bet. I too show my dogs in the heat of summer. The two disabled ones are in a buggy, shaded from the heat, with a towel or space blanket underneath them to keep them cool. The others have battery operated fans to cool and circulate the air passing through their cages, often also covered with the shiny side of a space blanket to deflect the sun. I also take a cool blanket and often a cool coat for them to wear when not in the ring too.

Meanwhile this uncaring owner elects to spend the money she has spent a lifetime earning on show fees and travel and all the other bits and pieces that accompany the world of her beloved Cavaliers because she enjoys showing her dogs, together with the atmosphere and social life.

My dogs, and those of everyone I know, spend their day in cosseted comfort. Why else do you think they spend their comparatively brief time in the ring wagging their tails as fast as they can go?

Bet, so far as I know you haven't shown a dog for years. I don't blame you for being out of date with all that has come onto the market in the past few years, but I do believe that you should think again before condeming others while remaining oblivious of the comforts used but unseen under the blankets.


THE CAVALIER OUT DOOR SHOW SCENE


Yes it's been many years since were Showed our Cavaliers at Cavalier Out Door Shows.

The Photo I saw on Monday ,it looks as if nothing has changed ,Cavaliers confined in Cages and covered with Rugs.

The Big Difference from when we went to Cavalier Out Door Shows ,is the Depressing Information that now around 90% of Cavaliers have CM, which is Chacterised with Brains Too Big and Skulls Too Small .

Also when we went to Cavalier Out Door Shows ,the figure of 50% of Cavaliers having a Heart Murmur at 5-6 years of age ,and has been Reported at the 2009 UK CKCS CLUB's AGM that this is no better than it was 18 years ago,and MVD Researchers have mentioned that that there are now Many Cavalier Cavaliers with the MVD Genes was not discussed.

I am not talking about the what has come onto the Market now, but what a Sick Breed the Cavaliers have now become, and how having them in Cages covered with Blankets at Out Door Cavalier Shows could be causing them further Problems.

If there are about 90% of Cavaliers with CM ,how many have been MRI Scanned that are being taken just about every week to Cavalier Out Door Shows.


Bet

Teresa
4th May 2011, 06:22 PM
Bet as you state often there are issues within the breed as there are with many pedigree dogs and yes something needs to be done...as for your other point please see there are many many owners, some who show and some who don't who only want the best for their dogs...I think the people like a girl I heard of through facebook who has two untested Cavs and has bred two litters from the pair on two consecutive seasons are the ones your energy needs to be pointed at and the "big ugly stick" beaten else where for a while...xx

Bet
4th May 2011, 06:31 PM
Bet as you state often there are issues within the breed as there are with many pedigree dogs and yes something needs to be done...as for your other point please see there are many many owners, some who show and some who don't who only want the best for their dogs...I think the people like a girl I heard of through facebook who has two untested Cavs and has bred two litters from the pair on two consecutive seasons are the ones your energy needs to be pointed at and the "big ugly stick" beaten else where for a while...xx


THE CAVALIER OUT DOOR SHOW SCENE

BUT Two Blacks don't make White.


Bet

murphy's mum
4th May 2011, 06:34 PM
The constant negative and critical posts really irk me....I don't normally respond (in fact, don't normally even read them) but this one caught my eye and I couldn't help myself.

I have to agree with Cathy. I'll start off by saying I'm not a breeder nor do I show my Cavaliers, but I get really fed up with your very negative posts on this site. You've just labeled everyone who dares to show their Cavalier outdoors, with the same dirty, smelly brush.

Why do you assume that a Cavalier that is crated is in distress? You ask what proof there is that these dogs are not in distress. Well I ask you what proof do you have that they are in distress? Honestly, regardless of CM, if a dog is distressed, their owners or some other dog lover would surely notice. Why if the dog was distressed would it come happily out it's cage with it's tail wagging ready to go into the ring?

Reading your other post regarding traveling long distances in a car, what a weak statement. Everyone who owns a dog, and a car will have traveled with them at some point during hot weather. Are you saying that we shouldn't take our Cav's out when it's hot and sunny? My two love traveling in the car, regardless of the weather, they are always eager to get in to see where we are going this time. We are taking ours on holiday this year for the first time, during the height of summer too. Perhaps you are suggesting I'm cruel to do so! We have 3 hours to travel, we have AC, we open the windows, we of course carry water and we will make regular breaks en-route.

I have two fun loving Cavaliers, who love life, and are never happier then when they are out and about. They aren't little balls of fluff to be mollycoddled, and kept inside during good weather. We will continue to go to country shows, pet shows and other events with them.

ByFloSin
4th May 2011, 07:00 PM
THE CAVALIER OUT DOOR SHOW SCENE


Yes it's been many years since were Showed our Cavaliers at Cavalier Out Door Shows.

The Photo I saw on Monday ,it looks as if nothing has changed ,Cavaliers confined in Cages and covered with Rugs.

The Big Difference from when we went to Cavalier Out Door Shows ,is the Depressing Information that now around 90% of Cavaliers have CM, which is Chacterised with Brains Too Big and Skulls Too Small .

Also when we went to Cavalier Out Door Shows ,the figure of 50% of Cavaliers having a Heart Murmur at 5-6 years of age ,and has been Reported at the 2009 UK CKCS CLUB's AGM that this is no better than it was 18 years ago,and MVD Researchers have mentioned that that there are now Many Cavalier Cavaliers with the MVD Genes was not discussed.

I am not talking about the what has come onto the Market now, but what a Sick Breed the Cavaliers have now become, and how having them in Cages covered with Blankets at Out Door Cavalier Shows could be causing them further Problems.

If there are about 90% of Cavaliers with CM ,how many have been MRI Scanned that are being taken just about every week to Cavalier Out Door Shows.


Bet

I agree that much more is known about Cavalier health than probably was in the days when you were showing dogs. Perhaps most rigs looked the same then to now, but what has now changed is what goes on underneath the covers.

Bet, I regularly show dogs in both the South West of England and in the Midlands. Out of all the people I meet and chat to during the year I can only think of two who decline to MRI scan their dogs, because of what they consider to be valid reasons. Who am I to judge. I only ask that everyone considers the available information and guidelines before deciding what they think is right for them and their dogs.

I have Rebel and Winston with slight murmours. Rebel also has SM, but the others have scanned clear. I no longer show either, not because of possible discomfort at the venue, but because of the stress of being show prepared and the travel involved. I show the other 3 dogs, 2 of whom are scanned clear of SM and free of mvd, Everyone else I know endorses my decision.

Would it not be better to use your valuable time and expertise Bet in campaigning against genuine animal cruelty or the ubiquitous puppy farmers who thrive because there are so few with your knowledge of animal welfare available to speak out against them?:)



I

Pwif
4th May 2011, 08:58 PM
Would it not be better to use your valuable time and expertise Bet in campaigning against genuine animal cruelty or the ubiquitous puppy farmers who thrive because there are so few with your knowledge of animal welfare available to speak out against them?:)

Flo, I totally agree.

I'm fed up of reading loads of negative posts and bitter comments about breeders who do their utmost for this wonderful breed. Why isn't the effort put into dealing with the money-grabbing puppy farmers. They're the real enemy - read the internet websites - deal with the owners of bitches who have churned out litter after litter (every season) and are then discarded once they've passed their use by date.

We've had cavaliers for 20 years; we're pet owners; we're close friends of breeders; we adore this breed; we understand the main problems affecting cavaliers (as much as anyone can); we've been to shows; typical breeders DO NOT shove their beloved cavaliers in cages and leave them out in the sunshine to wilt - it does not happen. Most breeders adore their cavaliers - they are their pets first and foremost.

We currently have two cavaliers - Jacob and Hannah (3 years old) - perfect health - they may or may not have heart problems in the future. However, my husband and I may also have heart problems in the future (runs in both our families). None of us can guarantee brilliant health - human or four-legged.

Surely pet owners and breeders should be working together to do the best by this most gentle and sensitive breed of dogs.

Davecav
4th May 2011, 10:03 PM
THE CAVALIER OUT DOOR SHOW SCENE.


Just to answer Davecav's Post,no-body is forcing those Breeders he has mentioned to chase Titles .

Bet I didn't say anyone one was forcing exhibitors to 'chase titles' I was merely trying to answer your question on an earlier post - which was

'Can the Cavalier Show Scene be classed as a Hobby, when many Cavalier Puppies are sold for around £800?'
I would think it is more of a Commercial Business.

I think you are confusing a hobby of showing dogs with breeding them commercially. A lot of people who show their dogs don't breed them. Ask the members of this forum who show but don't breed.
I am not in a position to say how much Cavaliers are sold for, I didn't pay as much as £800 for mine, but that is by the by. How much do you think a fair price is for a Cavalier, taking into consideration they care and attention the bitch needs until 2.5yrs + and all the health tests, then the care and upkeep of the puppies until at least 8wks, and then the vets bills and the eye tests on the pups and innoculations before they are sold?? Not to mention the stud fee and KC Registrations + God knows what else.
My bitch came from a litter of two, so I think I can safely say that her breeder didn't anywhere near make ends meet.

You continue:
The other comment I would make ,is that our Cherished Cavaliers were taken for a Walk first thing in th Morning when it was Cool ,then at night when it was Cooler, through the Day when they had to go go for their Toilets it was a case of out and in.

Our House was kept cool by Fans, how is that possible when Cavaliers are covered with a Blanket shut in a Cage and as you have mentioned travelling about 100 miles in a Car.

Because it is now know that about 90% of Cavaliers have CM, which is Chacterised by Brains being Too Big and Skulls Too Small, what Proof do you or any-body else have that this Disease is not causing Distress to Cavaliers being shut in a Cage and being surounded with a Blanket at Out Door Cavalier Shows.

Bet

Your opening post on this thread states you are concerned that Cavaliers are being shown in the 'Open Air' and that is a problem becuase they are brachcephalic, then you condem show people because their dogs are being shown and they have CM, and will be distressed in cages.

I'm confused why you are so against people showing Cavaliers,

Is it because the dogs are brachcephalic? (though most live very healthy energentic lives)
Is it because they have CM? (though the majority of cavaliers with CM again have normal healthy lives)
Is it because they are all going to die in the heat of the sun? (though none have yet done so at a show)

Or do you just disapprove of the whole show scene? and breeders?

Cathy T
5th May 2011, 01:29 AM
Or do you just disapprove of the whole show scene? and breeders?


I'm going to say this is more the issue. Shelby is definitely brachcephalic, Jake is definitely NOT nor is Micah. We are doing a dog walk this Saturday for our local humane society...it's hot today and it will be hot on Saturday. So.....I am bringing plenty of water and my stroller, so if anyone becomes distressed (particularly my little brachcephalic Shelby) they can be pushed in a stroller like the little princes and princess they are ;) And I won't be the only one with a stroller in case my dogs become distressed, two of my friends who are joining me will also be pushing their strollers. Maybe we should just stay home in the a/c and not participate in anything except to step outside to relieve ourselves :shock:

Karlin
5th May 2011, 02:41 AM
First off -- I fully agree that crates and covers are not necessarily an issue unless dogs are sitting in hot weather overheating inside a covered crate. Many if not most of us have crate trained dogs who would find a crate an relaxing and comfortable place to be at a public event. :) Also I do not think the price of a dog indicates anyone is breeding 'commercially' -- cavaliers in the US from good health-testing breeders cost in excess of 800 pounds and most are not producing commercial quantities of puppies. Many puppy farmers charge a fraction of that and they ARE breeding commercially.

On hearts: sadly almost no cavaliers avoid heart problems, so this will be an issue 99% of us will deal with. The problem is endemic, exists in all lines, and so few breeders, whether puppy farmers to show breeders, FULLY follow the long-standing MVD protocol that incidence in the breed has not declined at all in UK club cavaliers over nearly 20 years according to the club's own cardiologist. Any vet will tell you they see heart issues in pretty much the same level of incidence regardless of pedigree (or lack of one). I have had puppy farm and backyard bred rescue dogs that have come in with clear hearts at age 5+ -- and lots of nice pedigreed dogs that have murmurs. Of my own 5 -- the two with murmurs are from show breeders. One other from a show breeder is clear as is one from a puppy farm (now 7) and one from a BYB (now 5). Sm statistics are pretty much the same -- as likely to occur in show breeder or puppy farm dogs.

Puppy farmers are of course a major welfare and dog health issue BUT they are not something MORE important than the clubs' responsibility to address health issues in the breed in any meaningful and open way. Show breeders and clubs *must* lead the way on health issues and the fact is: they currently do not -- anyone can go look at club cavalier registrations for, say, the last three years and see the number of club breeders who have produced puppies from sires and in many cases dams UNDER the breeding age of the MVD protocol and a look at online pedigrees or checking registration records further back will show how many of the dogs that now are bred within protocol were initially bred outside protocol. Setting aside some dedicated individuals, the clubs as a whole have had a pretty feeble response on health. When there have been research programmes, many club members have not shown themselves wiling to follow the breeding advice or programmes that result and the UK CKCS Club's previous chairwoman made exactly this point on the front page of their website, in obvious frustration. Even when show breeders get an inexpensive genetic test for two horrible conditions known only in this breed -- episodic falling and dry eye/curly coat -- some are already posting to discussion lists that breeders are saying they never see these problems in their lines so why test (exactly what people said about SM for years, and many still do).

Many also continue to use vets for their heart clearances knowing full well that this is unacceptable for a reliable auscultation-- studies show that vets miss a full half of all early grade murmurs before dogs are 5.

Saying 'why not target puppy farmers instead of show breeders' with welfare campaigns implies these are somehow mutually exclusive problems when they are not. And many of those who care about what the clubs do on health issues, also campaign -- often rather more vigorously than the clubs and KC themselves! -- against puppy farmers. For example, in Ireland, nearly all (about 95%) the submissions to government on puppy farms, leading up to legislation, came from rescues, pet owners, vet organisations etc. Not one came from a breed club. Only a single breeder made a submission -- from the US, at my encouragement, to talk about the 'trade' into the US. In the US, it is breeders who mount the most vocal campaigns against every single piece of puppy farm legislation introduced by state, or federally. I regularly see breeders post to email lists opposing every bill, defending the 'rights' of show breeders with over 100 dogs in breeding kennels to be free from any scrutiny or inspections. These ARE clearly commercial breeders; how do they differ from a puppy farmer as they are churning out pups? Does anyone really think all these dogs are MRId? Cardio tested?

The issue is health -- whether the problem in addressing it originates with show breeders or puppy farmers or BYBs. But if the clubs and show breeders cannot lead on these issues, how can they possibly criticise the puppy farmer? How is their breeding programme different, except the dogs may conform better to a piece of paper with a breed standard on it? And, how many UK and Irish show breeders sell their dogs with no restriction and no spay/neuter cause, enabling the BYBs and puppy farmers to get their breeding stock easily? (the answer is, most). The clubs and show breeders have a long way to go themselves in constructively addressing puppy farms amd breed health, both, before they can ask others to focus criticism only on puppy farmers.

Bet
5th May 2011, 11:08 AM
First off -- I fully agree that crates and covers are not necessarily an issue unless dogs are sitting in hot weather overheating inside a covered crate. Many if not most of us have crate trained dogs who would find a crate an relaxing and comfortable place to be at a public event. :) Also I do not think the price of a dog indicates anyone is breeding 'commercially' -- cavaliers in the US from good health-testing breeders cost in excess of 800 pounds and most are not producing commercial quantities of puppies. Many puppy farmers charge a fraction of that and they ARE breeding commercially.

On hearts: sadly almost no cavaliers avoid heart problems, so this will be an issue 99% of us will deal with. The problem is endemic, exists in all lines, and so few breeders, whether puppy farmers to show breeders, FULLY follow the long-standing MVD protocol that incidence in the breed has not declined at all in UK club cavaliers over nearly 20 years according to the club's own cardiologist. Any vet will tell you they see heart issues in pretty much the same level of incidence regardless of pedigree (or lack of one). I have had puppy farm and backyard bred rescue dogs that have come in with clear hearts at age 5+ -- and lots of nice pedigreed dogs that have murmurs. Of my own 5 -- the two with murmurs are from show breeders. One other from a show breeder is clear as is one from a puppy farm (now 7) and one from a BYB (now 5). Sm statistics are pretty much the same -- as likely to occur in show breeder or puppy farm dogs.

Puppy farmers are of course a major welfare and dog health issue BUT they are not something MORE important than the clubs' responsibility to address health issues in the breed in any meaningful and open way. Show breeders and clubs *must* lead the way on health issues and the fact is: they currently do not -- anyone can go look at club cavalier registrations for, say, the last three years and see the number of club breeders who have produced puppies from sires and in many cases dams UNDER the breeding age of the MVD protocol and a look at online pedigrees or checking registration records further back will show how many of the dogs that now are bred within protocol were initially bred outside protocol. Setting aside some dedicated individuals, the clubs as a whole have had a pretty feeble response on health. When there have been research programmes, many club members have not shown themselves wiling to follow the breeding advice or programmes that result and the UK CKCS Club's previous chairwoman made exactly this point on the front page of their website, in obvious frustration. Even when show breeders get an inexpensive genetic test for two horrible conditions known only in this breed -- episodic falling and dry eye/curly coat -- some are already posting to discussion lists that breeders are saying they never see these problems in their lines so why test (exactly what people said about SM for years, and many still do).

Many also continue to use vets for their heart clearances knowing full well that this is unacceptable for a reliable auscultation-- studies show that vets miss a full half of all early grade murmurs before dogs are 5.

Saying 'why not target puppy farmers instead of show breeders' with welfare campaigns implies these are somehow mutually exclusive problems when they are not. And many of those who care about what the clubs do on health issues, also campaign -- often rather more vigorously than the clubs and KC themselves! -- against puppy farmers. For example, in Ireland, nearly all (about 95%) the submissions to government on puppy farms, leading up to legislation, came from rescues, pet owners, vet organisations etc. Not one came from a breed club. Only a single breeder made a submission -- from the US, at my encouragement, to talk about the 'trade' into the US. In the US, it is breeders who mount the most vocal campaigns against every single piece of puppy farm legislation introduced by state, or federally. I regularly see breeders post to email lists opposing every bill, defending the 'rights' of show breeders with over 100 dogs in breeding kennels to be free from any scrutiny or inspections. These ARE clearly commercial breeders; how do they differ from a puppy farmer as they are churning out pups? Does anyone really think all these dogs are MRId? Cardio tested?

The issue is health -- whether the problem in addressing it originates with show breeders or puppy farmers or BYBs. But if the clubs and show breeders cannot lead on these issues, how can they possibly criticise the puppy farmer? How is their breeding programme different, except the dogs may conform better to a piece of paper with a breed standard on it? And, how many UK and Irish show breeders sell their dogs with no restriction and no spay/neuter cause, enabling the BYBs and puppy farmers to get their breeding stock easily? (the answer is, most). The clubs and show breeders have a long way to go themselves in constructively addressing puppy farms amd breed health, both, before they can ask others to focus criticism only on puppy farmers.


THE CAVALIER OUT DOOR SHOW SCENE


Thank you Karlin for your Post.

If I could answer some of the other Posts ,one mentioned not to blame Cavalier Breeders for the Heart Problem in Cavaliers, that no-one can Guarantee that Cavaliers won't develope MVD.

True, but Cavalier Breeders can ,as some do , make sure that they are not Breeding from Cavaliers suffering from MVD,and are following the Breeding Guidelines not to Breed from a Cavalier before 2.5 years of age and know the Status of the Parents at 5 .

This is because the Cavalier Breed is the only Toy Breed to have the Type of MVD to have such an Early On-Set of MVD as Cavaliers have.

Fact Not Fiction!

Then I was Questioned as to whether I disapprove of the Whole Show Scene.

Well ,actually I do.

The Reason I say this ,is until the Uk CKCS CLUB Committee and CLUB Members agree not to allow Cavaliers to be Given their Champion Titles unless a Certificate can be Shown as Proof that the Cavalier has no SM or MVD and the Proof The Cavalier Breeder has followed the Breeding Guidelines as issued by the UK CKCS CLUB in 1987 and recently for SM, I just cannot see how the Cavalier Breed can Survive from the Mess it is in to-day.

Do you not agree Davecav ,that this has got to be the Most Important Priority in the Cavalier Show Scene to-day!!

Do my feelings about this Link in with Karlin's Post ,the Article

Called , OMERTA, THE BREEDERS' CODE OF SILENCE,which mentioned, Padgett ,a well known Geneticist,Referred to THE CODE OF SILENCE ,and I will specfically mention Cavalier Breeders and CLUB Members here,because they Flung out the Proposal at the Club's AGM last year not to allow the Proposal that I have just mentioned ,not to allow Cavaliers to be Given the TITLE of Champion unless there was Proof that that the Cavalier had no SM or MVD,that Dr Padgett said Breeders have a CODE OF SILENCE,that the Breeders fear a Defective Gene might be Found in their Breeding Stock.

Is this the Problem with the Cavalier Show Scene now?

That those Defective Genes could have Existed in the Show Scene Cavaliers for Generations, and quietly been Spreading through Many Cavalier Bloodlines before Manifesting it'self.

That Cavaliers which appear Healthy can actually be SPREADING ,DANGEROUS ,sometimes LETHAL GENES THROUGH-OUT the CAVALIER COMMUNITY until finally TWO HEALTHY ,BUT GENE FEFECTIVE CARRIERS combine to Produce the TELL TALE AFFECTED CAVALIER OFF-SPRING

Is this why there are now about 90% of Cavaliers with CM ,and very worryingly for the Future of our Cavaliers ,that 85 Whelps which were Researched, ALL HAD CM.


Bet

sins
5th May 2011, 12:05 PM
Bet,
I respect your right to disapprove of the show scene,for whatever reasons you see fit.
Not everyone embraces the concept of country pursuits or canine activities and that's ok.I'm sure many people think it's a daft thing to do...but I'd rather my kids attended a dog show on a Saturday afternoon than stand on a street corner or sit at a games console for the afternoon.
You seem to feel that because cavaliers have to contend with health issues, that they should not be in crates at shows.
Well, I feel that they have every right to be at shows,not locked away at home like we're ashamed of them.
If a cavalier is fit and capable of attending a show,doing agility,HTM or whatever,then as long as their owners show them with pride and love,that's fine by me.
There are plenty of people who show, but don't breed their own stock.
It's within breeding programmes where changes need to occur and to be honest,expecting scans and cardiac tests to be done before awarding CCs or titles won't be of any use to encourage people to scan or test.A young dog can be a champion and be heart clear and SM clear at 2,but have a massive syrinx by three or even be clear at three and be dead by five.
Unless a measure is sensible and practical and workable,it's pointless.
Why withold a ticket from a bitch who has a small syrinx,when she can be bred to an A grade dog and still meet all the breed club guidelines and protocols?
At the end of the day,it's the people who attend the various shows who are in touch with health issues.
Sometimes I wonder why I didn't just keep next door's cat instead of ever getting a cavalier:mad:
Sins

Margaret C
5th May 2011, 05:01 PM
I showed cavaliers for over thirty years and made up a Champion.
I had a wonderful time, it was my hobby & my social life but never did I think I was doing it to give my dogs a day out.

Although my cavaliers seemed happy to be at shows as long as they were in my company, I always knew we were there for my amusement and they would be even happier running free on a woodland walk.

Being shut up in a crate for hours at a time in the car and at the show would guarantee almost any dog would come out happy and tail wagging at being released.

There are ways of keeping a dog cool or warm while out for the day, but let's not fool ourselves that any sensible dog would choose to spend their day shut in a cage where they cannot even move away to seek a more comfortable position.

I have been to some summer shows where I have really struggled to keep my dogs comfortable despite fans, cool mats, parasols etc.

I am not completely anti-show, as I said I have had some wonderful times with some beautiful, responsive cavaliers on the other end of the lead, but we were there for me and my ego, after all what does a rosette mean to a dog?

The long battle I had to get SM acknowledged as a serious inherited health problem, when I was the Cavalier Club health representative, made me question some of the things I had taken for granted.
As people I had liked and respected denied the problems that they were seeing in their own dogs I realised just how much the human competitive streak can change people.
Over those thirty years I have met proud pet owners at their first show and seen too many of them transform into exhibitors who will win at any cost.

Until health considerations are somehow factored into success in the show ring then the temptation to deny health problems, to not health test, or to ignore bad results will continue.

Davecav
5th May 2011, 05:50 PM
Thank you Bet for being up-front and saying you disaprove of showing. That's fine.

A lot of people who enjoy this hobby will disagree, and that's fine also. It's a matter of live and let live!

I don't like boxing, for example, but I'm not so puritanical as to want to get it banned or try and stop people enjoying the sport.

Bet
6th May 2011, 10:27 AM
Thank you Bet for being up-front and saying you disaprove of showing. That's fine.

A lot of people who enjoy this hobby will disagree, and that's fine also. It's a matter of live and let live!

I don't like boxing, for example, but I'm not so puritanical as to want to get it banned or try and stop people enjoying the sport.


THE CAVALIER OUT DOOR SHOW SCENE


May I Gently Suggest to Davecav that there is No Comparison between the Showing of Cavaliers and Boxing.

That many Genuine Lovers of Cavaliers do not like to see them Confined to Cages and Covered in Blankets in Hot Weather only for ,as Dr Pagett has said in his Article ,THE BREEDERS CODE OF SILENCE.

That their Excuse he says ,is for their own Glorification in Winning Ribbons ,,Placings and Titles, and I will mention
again the Cavalier Show Breeders.

Some of those Cavalier Show Breeders do have Show Ring Success ,but unfortunately they are seen by Newcomers to the Cavalier Breed as Breed Authorities who the Newcomers can Trust for Knowledge and Information.

In many Cases they are given the Information that there are No Genetic Problems in Cavaliers to be Concerned with, that there is no need to do Expensive Health Testing when the Cavaliers are Healthy.

What is so sad about those Cavalier Breeders Attitudes ,is that their Attitudes begin to Prevail.

Back to Cavaliers being shut in Cages ,covered in Blankets in Hot Weather .

Can any-body Prove that the Cerebro Spinal Fluid is not going faster Round the Cavaliers Skulls in Hot Weather and being Shut in a Cage and Covered with a Blanket because of CM?

I certainly can't, but Davecav have you the Knowledge to say it being Covered with Blanket in a Cage in Hot Weather is making no difference to a Cavalier with CM.

Finally, does any-one know if the Heart Testing Results of Cavaliers will also be being Published in the Kennel Club's Breed Supplement ,also in the UK CKCS CLUB there are around 2,200 Members but for only 257 to have taken the Trouble to Reply to the MRI Qestionaire,were the others just not interested.

In answer again to Davecav's Question to me about Comparing Cavalier Show Breeders and Boxing, it will be mainly to the Cavalier Pet Buying Public that those Cavaliers will be being sold to,I will put this Question to him once more, ....

Has every Cavalier Shown at Cavalier Show's been MRI Scanned and Heart Tested?

If Not Why Not?


Bet

Brian M
6th May 2011, 11:08 AM
Hello davecav

My father in his younger days was a professional boxer for a time and I enjoyed amateur boxing for many years till other things became more interesting at the age of twenty ,and my son Luke who is 15 is a black belt 1st Dan in Shotokan Karate and hopes in August to take his 2 nd Dan grading .My father did it partly for the money at that time and I and my son for the enjoyment and exercise ,but we chose to participate ,I am not part of the show scene and have no interest and I am sure if I asked the girls they would choose not to be locked up in a cage in a strange environment on a warm day .
We can choose our Cavaliers cannot . And I think Muhammed Ali is a wonderful human being .:)

Bet
6th May 2011, 11:33 AM
THE CAVALIER OUT DOOR SHOW SCENE


May I Gently Suggest to Davecav that there is No Comparison between the Showing of Cavaliers and Boxing.

That many Genuine Lovers of Cavaliers do not like to see them Confined to Cages and Covered in Blankets in Hot Weather only for ,as Dr Pagett has said in his Article ,THE BREEDERS CODE OF SILENCE.

That their Excuse he says ,is for their own Glorification in Winning Ribbons ,,Placings and Titles, and I will mention
again the Cavalier Show Breeders.

Some of those Cavalier Show Breeders do have Show Ring Success ,but unfortunately they are seen by Newcomers to the Cavalier Breed as Breed Authorities who the Newcomers can Trust for Knowledge and Information.

In many Cases they are given the Information that there are No Genetic Problems in Cavaliers to be Concerned with, that there is no need to do Expensive Health Testing when the Cavaliers are Healthy.

What is so sad about those Cavalier Breeders Attitudes ,is that their Attitudes begin to Prevail.

Back to Cavaliers being shut in Cages ,covered in Blankets in Hot Weather .

Can any-body Prove that the Cerebro Spinal Fluid is not going faster Round the Cavaliers Skulls in Hot Weather and being Shut in a Cage and Covered with a Blanket because of CM?

I certainly can't, but Davecav have you the Knowledge to say it being Covered with Blanket in a Cage in Hot Weather is making no difference to a Cavalier with CM.

Finally, does any-one know if the Heart Testing Results of Cavaliers will also be being Published in the Kennel Club's Breed Supplement ,also in the UK CKCS CLUB there are around 2,200 Members but for only 257 to have taken the Trouble to Reply to the MRI Qestionaire,were the others just not interested.

In answer again to Davecav's Question to me about Comparing Cavalier Show Breeders and Boxing, it will be mainly to the Cavalier Pet Buying Public that those Cavaliers will be being sold to,I will put this Question to him once more, ....

Has every Cavalier Shown at Cavalier Show's been MRI Scanned and Heart Tested?

If Not Why Not?


Bet


THE CAVALIER OUT DOOR SHOW SCENE


Could I possibly be Allowed to Reply to the Scurrilous Assertion on another Cavalier Forum that the Problem of Cavaliers with CM/SM ,is a Smear Campaign against the Cavalier Breed

What seems also to have been forgotten in this Article ,is the Fact the Cavaliers were known to have Heart Trouble and Dying from it from the 1940's .

MVD Researchers are saying that there are now Many Cavaliers Carriers with the MVD Genes.

Is this Not Proof enough , if Proof was needed, that Our Cavaliers are a Very Unhealthy Breed!!


Bet

Davecav
6th May 2011, 12:54 PM
OK - I give in.


I just can't follow your reasoning or logic.

Bye Bye:)

Brian M
6th May 2011, 01:04 PM
Hello davecav

Thats exactly the same words I often say to my wife .;)

Margaret C
6th May 2011, 01:53 PM
THE CAVALIER OUT DOOR SHOW SCENE


Could I possibly be Allowed to Reply to the Scurrilous Assertion on another Cavalier Forum that the Problem of Cavaliers with CM/SM ,is a Smear Campaign against the Cavalier Breed

Bet

Hello Bet,

This is really not worth worrying about.

The Secretary of the Health Liaison Committee has posted a badly translated article from a Dutch breeder which contains many of the clutching-at-straw denials that were current a year or so ago in the UK.

Another Health Representative has replied indicating she believes that other breeds would be as badly affected with SM if they were also MRI'd.

Well, that's okay then, as long as other breeds have SM too, cavalier owners have nothing to worry about.

The liaison committee is scarcely going to be very proactive if this is an indication of their thinking.
This, I presume, is why their website has so little information on it. Not even an up-to-date list of health testing events.
http://www.cavalierhealth.co.uk/

It would be good to be told just what this committee were doing. Instead they seem to function as some sort of secret society.

They have been asked if they intend to chase up the long promised BVA/KC Heart Scheme, something that is so badly needed, but they have not given any direct answer as to whether this is on their agenda.
In fact they will not give any indication about just what steps, if any, they are taking to improve the health of cavaliers.

It is called 'Gatekeeping'. It is the act of stopping and delaying progress as long as possible.

It will not work, things will never go back to what they were, the problems are too widely known. All these people are doing are making other breeders sincere efforts to improve the health of the breed less likely to succeed.

One of the ideas in this mish-mash of an article is that it is disloyal to talk about the many health issues in cavaliers.
The accusation that all the publicity about SM is a 'smear' on the breed is plainly ridiculous if you think about it.
Keeping quiet allows problems to multiply and the dogs suffer. That is why we are now overwhelmed with SM and MVD.

Helping experts to investigate the problems and find remedies helps the breed. It is surely what real cavalier lovers, those that really care about the suffering of these poor dogs and their owners, should be doing?

I watched my special dog scream in pain. Since then I have seen his sons and grandsons suffer. I decided to tell the world about SM because I love my dogs.

Disloyalty is to have seen your dog suffer and not do everything possible to ensure that it does not happen to other cavaliers.

Davecav
6th May 2011, 04:28 PM
Hello davecav

Thats exactly the same words I often say to my wife .;)

cl*p Hi Brian - hope she doesn't read this forum, else you might find yourself in the dog-house !! otherwise on a nice afternoon like this I'll just chill and have a small beer.8-)

Bet
6th May 2011, 06:17 PM
OK - I give in.


I just can't follow your reasoning or logic.

Bye Bye:)


THE CAVALIER OUT DOOR SHOW SCENE


I do hope Davecav that you will read Margaret's well written Post, and now Perhaps you will understand what we True Lovers of our Cavalier Breed feel about what is happening to the Cavaliers at the Moment.


Bet

Davecav
6th May 2011, 07:01 PM
THE CAVALIER OUT DOOR SHOW SCENE


I do hope Davecav that you will read Margaret's well written Post, and now Perhaps you will understand what we True Lovers of our Cavalier Breed feel about what is happening to the Cavaliers at the Moment.


Bet

Sorry Bet, the health issues of Cavaliers, which are dear to my heart, and I do not take them lightly!, have nothing to do with people wanting to have a nice day out at a show and enjoy their hobby.
Trying to pour scorn and condem them for taking their dogs, and themselves for a lovely day out, by suggesting their dogs are baking in their cages, and are suffering because they are sick dogs as they have CM and are Brachceaphilac, is, I think, insulting the intellegence of most of the people on this forum who bother to read your posts.
Where is your proof that these dogs suffer. There are posts on this thread from people who take their dogs to shows and they refute what you are trying to imply.
I take my cavalier camping, she plays with my kids racing round after a ball or just having fun all day, should I lock her up inside at home becuase the sun is shining? I think not! She is happy and she loves to be outside, and yes I have a cage that she goes in of her own accord to have a snooze in the shade.


~This really is the last I will say on this subject because you are wasting your breath on me.:):):) - - ------ ---- and probably I on you.

Jay
6th May 2011, 07:02 PM
Disloyalty is to have seen your dog suffer and not do everything possible to ensure that it does not happen to other cavaliers.

Margaret.....YES!

J.

murphy's mum
6th May 2011, 09:57 PM
and now Perhaps you will understand what we True Lovers of our Cavalier Breed feel about what is happening to the Cavaliers at the Moment.


Bet

So those who disagree with your thread do not care about our Cavaliers? Are we not "True Lovers" of the breed.

Dear God! Just when I think your comments cannot stoop any lower.

This forum has always been a joy to read, filled with helpful and informative threads, until lately, when you seem driven to push your blinkered views down everyone's throats.

anniemac
7th May 2011, 02:03 AM
So those who disagree with your thread do not care about our Cavaliers? Are we not "True Lovers" of the breed.



I have been upset too. I care about cavalier health and even though I don't currently have one, I have learned a lot about what to look for in a breeder. The first place I would go, is to a show. Who is volunteering the health clinics they have, talk to people, get involved because it is a beautiful breed.

One thing confuses me. It doesn't make sense because at one time there was questions why not many submissions for heart results for older cavaliers at a show. Yet now, it is cruel to take them to a show. I don't understand because some older cavaliers would have a hard time traveling (cm/sm, mvd, or just old age) but then again I don't think this is about crates.

I probably was mistreating ella because she traveled with and loved the car. Now I feel so guilty. I know she was overweight, that is cruel. She would stick her head out the window (now that's probably not safe). I know I made mistakes. I wish I was perfect but I tried damn hard for her. I would not intentionally do anything cruel. Ok I now need to stop but we can't analyze one piece.

I might be emotional now, but yes we have got to recognize the health issues but in a way that is helpful. I have said before, if a cavalier breeder follows protocols and has a cavalier asymptomatic with a syrinx, why would they not be shown? They can be breed to an A and what if they are over 5 heart clear with a small syrinx.

It seems to me, it is about early onset SM, like MVD. Maybe karlin will correct me but from reading dr. Rusbridge slides it would be best to breed clear cavaliers but if need be, only older asymptomatic cavaliers with a syrinx should be breed with an older clear cavalier?

Karlin mentioned underage breeding. That is something I think is pretty easy to see how it hurts the health of the breed because so many protocols have age in mind. Why punish a breeder who has older with a small syrinx if they breed and follow protocols.





Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

anniemac
7th May 2011, 02:27 AM
Back to Cavaliers being shut in Cages ,covered in Blankets in Hot Weather .

Can any-body Prove that the Cerebro Spinal Fluid is not going faster Round the Cavaliers Skulls in Hot Weather and being Shut in a Cage and Covered with a Blanket because of CM?


I certainly can't, but Davecav have you the Knowledge to say it being Covered with Blanket in a Cage in Hot Weather is making no difference to a Cavalier with CM.


Has every Cavalier Shown at Cavalier Show's been MRI Scanned and Heart Tested?

If Not Why Not?


Bet

Someone already said this but it is changes in barametric pressure that can affect an SM cavalier. I noticed it with ella and also humans have talked about it. I asked this question to dr. Marino and I need to pull up the quote but he said something that more has been known from humans about changes in weather. One with an SM symptomatic cavalier can see this. A friend with 2 said she should move to arizona. I believe there are cavaliers all around the world with CM/SM and from the cold to the warm, it doesn't matter.

Second, I think your idea about whether they have been scanned is good but it would never happen. I can't see it when there are comments about SM cavaliers not being shown. Personally I feel its more about protocols and an older cavalier with a small syrinx if scanned then what? Would we want to know they have been scanned or would it be more about the results?

Like I've mentioned there are health confirmation classes (did I say it right) at the ckcsc usa where they have to be over 5 heart, hip etc clear with certificates etc. Great incentive and I respect that, but if you add in the mri's I would still want to see a 9 year old with all that clear, scanned even for research, and would it be wrong to allow them to enter if they had a bad scan (if asymptomatic)?

Ok, that's all for now



Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Bet
7th May 2011, 09:49 AM
Sorry Bet, the health issues of Cavaliers, which are dear to my heart, and I do not take them lightly!, have nothing to do with people wanting to have a nice day out at a show and enjoy their hobby.
Trying to pour scorn and condem them for taking their dogs, and themselves for a lovely day out, by suggesting their dogs are baking in their cages, and are suffering because they are sick dogs as they have CM and are Brachceaphilac, is, I think, insulting the intellegence of most of the people on this forum who bother to read your posts.
Where is your proof that these dogs suffer. There are posts on this thread from people who take their dogs to shows and they refute what you are trying to imply.
I take my cavalier camping, she plays with my kids racing round after a ball or just having fun all day, should I lock her up inside at home becuase the sun is shining? I think not! She is happy and she loves to be outside, and yes I have a cage that she goes in of her own accord to have a snooze in the shade.


~This really is the last I will say on this subject because you are wasting your breath on me.:):):) - - ------ ---- and probably I on you.


THE CAVALIER OUT DOOR SHOW SCENE


Davecav , since you are not going to read my Posts ,you will maybe have noticed Margaret's Post about Many Cavalier Breeders who go to Shows are on Ego Trips.

Can I thank Margaret again for her Post mentioning that the Article Posted on another Forum CLUB which mentioned that SM in Cavaliers is a Smear Campaign against Cavaliers, was Posted by the Secretary of the UK CKCS CLUB'S HEALTH Liaison COMMITTEE.

It looks like that The Researchers into the SM Problem in Cavaliers are not to be believed by some in the Health Liaison Committee,since the Health Secretary of the Health Liaison Committee has Posted this Article,which has also claimed that the Cavalier Breed has been brought into disrepute because of the mention of the SM Problem in Cavaliers.

What was really so disgracefull to read in this Article Posted by the CKCS CLUB'S HEALTH LIAISON COMMITTEE'S Secretary,was the mention that the First Cavalier Presented with the Symptoms of SM could be just a Mere Co-incidence.

If it had not been for Dr.C. Rusbridge ,Neurologist Researching the SM problem in our Cavalier Breed ,would it have ever been known about,or is that what some Cavalier Breeders are hoping would have happened.

Because the Secretary of the UK CKCS CLUB'S HEALTH LIAISON COMMITTEE was responsible fro Posting this Article, the Question has to be asked.

IS SHE IN AGREEMENT WITH IT?

FOR ALL THE OWNERS OF CAVALIERS SUFFERING FROM SM, SURELY SHE WILL ANSWER A DENIAL TO IT.


Bet