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View Full Version : Clueless people!!!



Teresa
17th May 2011, 08:28 PM
Some people are so clueless...I have just read a Cavalier advertised for stud...2.5 years old and sired 17 litters!!!!!! And they are proud of that!! Another on the same page is just 17 months old and proven already...:mad: Makes me so angry!!!!

Sorry just had to rant for a min!!

StillPooh
17th May 2011, 08:50 PM
When Clancy was young, I had people telling me I should breed him. I explained he was purchased on a neuter contract. They would respond I should breed him anyway, and just sell the unregistered puppies for slightly less.

When I explained Clancy did not meet the breed standard, they looked at me like I was from Mars. :bang:

Desrae
17th May 2011, 11:47 PM
Some people just have no scruples. Reminds me of the local farm who let their dogs go walkies unattended, I just met one who's now pregnant! Grrrrrr. Can't say anything or do anything either, I've already tried.

Some people don't look at animals as living creatures with thoughts and feelings, some consider them as just 'property'.

MadPip
18th May 2011, 08:34 AM
The mind does boggle, doesn't it, at how stupid people can be.

When we got Pippin (B&T) we kept getting told we ought to breed from him because he was so gorgeous. Well, I'm not disputing that he's gorgeous :luv: but when I pointed out his significant overbite and said that I wouldn't want to risk passing that on to any puppies and it made him unsuitable for breeding I was looked at as if I had two heads and had escaped from the local asylum. :bang::bang: The other comment was that we ought to mate him with Maddie (Blenheim). I used to give up after explaining she was spayed so wouldn't be having puppies. She's a bit on the small side, so again wouldn't really be suitable. Again, she is definitely gorgeous. :luv:

BrooklynMom
18th May 2011, 11:00 AM
Grrrrrrr.....

Margaret C
18th May 2011, 03:07 PM
Some people are so clueless...I have just read a Cavalier advertised for stud...2.5 years old and sired 17 litters!!!!!! And they are proud of that!! Another on the same page is just 17 months old and proven already...:mad: Makes me so angry!!!!

Sorry just had to rant for a min!!

I presume that was on an internet site? These owners probably don't belong to a breed club and would have little idea of the health problems in Cavaliers. The KC should refuse to register Cavalier puppies born to underage parents.

What makes me angry is the fact that members of breed club committees, the people who should be setting an example by breeding responsibly, are no better.
One little dog co-owned by a Cavalier Club committee member was used at stud for the first time at 9 months ( mated to a 14 month bitch ) and I suspect he easily exceeded 17 litters before he was two and a half years old.

I have just received the Breed Record Supplement so I will do a little bit of checking.

It is one thing to be a clueless BYB, but when long established breeders ignore the health guidelines published in their own club rules, then that smacks of commercial exploitation of the most cynical kind by someone that does know better.

ByFloSin
18th May 2011, 09:34 PM
Why assume that it was on an internet site Margaret. Where I live I have been approached by people with other breeds who want to crossbreed 'designer' dogs with one of mine as well as Cavalier pet owners who want to 'make a little bit of money' or 'teach the kids the facts of life'. I lost count of the number of people who have got my 'phone number from somewhere or other and want to use Winston or Joe for stud.

Trying to explain the principles of responsible breeding or health testing to people like this is a total waste of time.

I would like to see a law passed that no puppy is to be sold from untested parents, who must be 2 1/2 years or older at the time of mating, that every puppy has to be microchipped by the age of 6 months and that every litter has to be eye and heart screened by 8 weeks. I would also add that no bitch is to be bred more than once per year or have more than 4 litters during her lifetime. And of course I would add that puppies are not to be sold without their mother being available for inspection.

How would I enforce all that? A very good question, but given enough exposure by the media an awful lot of idiots would give up that 'nice little earner'. cl*p

sins
18th May 2011, 09:52 PM
The Kennel Club won't change a single thing.
Unless you're a member of their ABS scheme, they'll claim to be powerless to enforce any "guidelines or recommendations".
So basically whether you're a BYB,puppy farmer or top exhibitor,feel free to breed early and breed often!!
But heaven forbid you put a squirt of lacquer on your pooch !:rolleyes:
Sins

James
18th May 2011, 10:06 PM
Last summer when walking with Ben in St Andrews, Fife, I was approached by a young couple who had the tiniest bitch that I have ever seen, they said they were looking for a similar sized dog to mate her with. when I mentioned breeding guidelines, mitral valve disease and SM I was met with blank stares, they had never heard of any of these ailments. They had been given their little bitch from an aunt who could not look after her and were just out to "make money", at that point Sandra detected the changing pitch (anger) in my voice and "encouraged me to move on.

Also closer to home I have recently spoken to a couple who had recently mated their Cavaliers and were hoping for lots of puppies to make some money, again they had not heard of the breeding guidelines or SM but had heard of Cavaliers with "bad hearts"
In both cases I just could not believe it how people could own a particular breed and be so ignorant of its serious health problems, where have these people been the last few years?

Bet
19th May 2011, 10:15 AM
Last summer when walking with Ben in St Andrews, Fife, I was approached by a young couple who had the tiniest bitch that I have ever seen, they said they were looking for a similar sized dog to mate her with. when I mentioned breeding guidelines, mitral valve disease and SM I was met with blank stares, they had never heard of any of these ailments. They had been given their little bitch from an aunt who could not look after her and were just out to "make money", at that point Sandra detected the changing pitch (anger) in my voice and "encouraged me to move on.

Also closer to home I have recently spoken to a couple who had recently mated their Cavaliers and were hoping for lots of puppies to make some money, again they had not heard of the breeding guidelines or SM but had heard of Cavaliers with "bad hearts"
In both cases I just could not believe it how people could own a particular breed and be so ignorant of its serious health problems, where have these people been the last few years?


CLUELESS PEOPLE !!!!!

What would be interesting to find out from Cavalier Owners on this List , would be how many of their Cavaliers with Health Problems, SM or MVD were bought from Cavalier Club Breeders and how many from Puppy Farms or BYB Breeders

I will start this off ,our 4 who died from MVD at an Early age all were bred by UK CKCS CLUB Cavalier Breeders.

One who had Epilepsy also from a CKCS CLUB Breeder.

I do hope that this answer will be discovered by the Nation- Wide Vets' Survey being carried out at Present.

This Survey has 76.000 Dogs on the Pilot Scheme just now.

This information will at last give Hard Facts and enough Raw Data to Enable Statisically Significant Conclusions .

It will be the next step that Defines Cavalier Breeders worth as Breeders and the Future of our Cavaliers.

Bet

Starski
19th May 2011, 04:18 PM
This sadly is a worldwide attitude ..Ive heard the same thing from uneducated people here in Australia too. The answer is in education but unfortunately some dont want to know.:(

denali
20th May 2011, 11:44 AM
some people....

Margaret C
20th May 2011, 07:48 PM
I These owners probably don't belong to a breed club and would have little idea of the health problems in Cavaliers. The KC should refuse to register Cavalier puppies born to underage parents.

What makes me angry is the fact that members of breed club committees, the people who should be setting an example by breeding responsibly, are no better.
One little dog co-owned by a Cavalier Club committee member was used at stud for the first time at 9 months ( mated to a 14 month bitch ) and I suspect he easily exceeded 17 litters before he was two and a half years old.

I have just received the Breed Record Supplement so I will do a little bit of checking.



I checked and this young dog, co-owned by a Cavalier Club committee member, sired 23 litters before he was two years old.

The first bitch this little dog mated, when he was a puppy of 9 months and she was 14 months, was bred again to him again 7 months later. Owned by the same partnership, she had two litters before she was two years old.

This owner is in no way a clueless person. He is aware of the health guidelines, he has had first hand experience of SM so he knows he risks producing cavaliers that have painful lives.

The Cavalier Club have an AGM this weekend. There is a proposal that I have submitted for discussion that states..........

"All members that put themselves forward for election to the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Club committee must agree to abide by the Club’s Code of Best Practice and the Club Breeding Guidelines".

It will be voted out.

RodRussell
20th May 2011, 08:04 PM
... The Cavalier Club have an AGM this weekend. There is a proposal that I have submitted for discussion that states..........

"All members that put themselves forward for election to the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Club committee must agree to abide by the Club’s Code of Best Practice and the Club Breeding Guidelines". ...

I LOVE IT!! It is the least they should have to do.

sins
20th May 2011, 08:46 PM
It seems like a completely logical and reasonable proposal.Especially when positive PR is needed in the current climate.Not just positive PR,but urgent efforts to address the problem of inherited illness in the breed.
However, logic and reason are in scarce supply in the cavalier world.
Sins

Bet
21st May 2011, 09:33 AM
I checked and this young dog, co-owned by a Cavalier Club committee member, sired 23 litters before he was two years old.

The first bitch this little dog mated, when he was a puppy of 9 months and she was 14 months, was bred again to him again 7 months later. Owned by the same partnership, she had two litters before she was two years old.

This owner is in no way a clueless person. He is aware of the health guidelines, he has had first hand experience of SM so he knows he risks producing cavaliers that have painful lives.

The Cavalier Club have an AGM this weekend. There is a proposal that I have submitted for discussion that states..........

"All members that put themselves forward for election to the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Club committee must agree to abide by the Club’s Code of Best Practice and the Club Breeding Guidelines".

It will be voted out.


CLUELESS PEOPLE !!!!!

Just read Margaret's Post about the CKCS CLUB COMMITTEE CLUB MEMBER Co-Ownership of a Cavalier who has sired 23 Litters before 2 Years of age ,and the POOR WEE CAVALIER BITCH WHO WAS STILL A BABY ,mated at 14 Months and had a Repeat Mating at 7 Months later.

I do hope this has been noted by the Welfare Committee , CAWC.

Are there some now on the CKCS CLUB COMMITTEE, who do not care about the Scientific Information being given by the Researchers into the SM and MVD Problems in Cavaliers, but only about PUBLIC RELATIONS and SPIN.

Bet

Margaret C
21st May 2011, 02:35 PM
I would like to see a law passed that no puppy is to be sold from untested parents, who must be 2 1/2 years or older at the time of mating,


The latest Breed Record Supplement shows that this young dog became a Grandfather soon after his second birthday.

Fingers crossed he does not have anything nasty to pass on to his very many offspring. :xfngr:

anniemac
21st May 2011, 04:33 PM
first I can't imagine a 9 month old being breed and that is really concerning and pretty easy to know.

clueless people (who we all are at times because I hope we gain knowledge somehow) are not the issue with me personally. Its what one does with the knowledge that shows a lot.

1) it either goes over head (guilty) or they don't think much of it.

Worse

2) they know exactly and choose to ignore, deny, or play didn't know.

I don't have mental energy to say what I want. I am amazed at things said. I will do a seperate thing about my friend, one that I was close with pre SM and owns kennedy (ellas boyfriend), being dead serious when I put ella to sleep about what a shame it was we got them fixed before we met. That is the first category.

When one is a breeder and knows exactly the code of ethics and chooses to not follow is category 2 (9 month old) I'm not sure what is in the uk code of ethics because I am not breeding and not in uk.

I will tell you what I DO know. I will use Rod Russell as an example because he is not a breeder and if he was it would be really funny if the person who dedicated so much time to cavalier health didn't follow or "know" about health issues. His website www.cavalierhealth.org probably does not miss any health issue, new information etc. Regarding health. By the way sorry to pick on you, rod. I'm sure it wouldn't take long for someone to point him out. If rod did breed and decided he would give me a puppy.

I know I don't have energy to go meet him and even see if I like him (who knows :)) or the puppies, look at the health results because that's what he said to do and I would, but more importantly, nothing is free.

Things happen that he or I could not see. I learned that recently.

Even if he knew the future and he could actually guarantee that
nothing would, I don't want to take the time to train a puppy.

It goes on and on.... sorry to ramble but sometimes we need to think more (especially me)! But we are all clueless at some points but those that KNOW and don't do, that's what bothers me.

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anniemac
21st May 2011, 04:44 PM
I meant to point out all of that is right now. Things may change but right now, I am choosing to ignore things. I'm not buying a puppy or rescue, I am choosiing to just enjoy learning and I don't want to know who does what until or if I buy a puppy because it kind of ruins all the fun of just enjoying from the outside. I want a mental break and I am choosing to be clueless. Just for the weekend.



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Margaret C
23rd May 2011, 01:33 PM
The Cavalier Club have an AGM this weekend. There is a proposal that I have submitted for discussion that states..........

"All members that put themselves forward for election to the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Club committee must agree to abide by the Club’s Code of Best Practice and the Club Breeding Guidelines".

It will be voted out.

The proposal was voted out, but not so overwhelmingly as last year.

The figures were 14 for the proposal, 33 against and 2 abstained (interesting how few people make the decisions for a club of over 1,500 members )

Although the proposal failed, I actually feel quite heartened at the increased number of ordinary decent members that were brave enough to come and make their true opinion known.

The proposal will be submitted again every year until committee members and health representatives stop breeding from underage Cavaliers.

Karlin
23rd May 2011, 01:45 PM
There is certainly a strong argument for working to get ordinary members to attend future meetings and join with health-foused breeders to swing the balance in such votes towards health rather than avoiding making a responsible public commitment to health.

anniemac
23rd May 2011, 04:32 PM
There is certainly a strong argument for working to get ordinary members to attend future meetings and join with health-foused breeders to swing the balance in such votes towards health rather than avoiding making a responsible public commitment to health.

I agree but I would add that I feel its important to be involved and get information first hand from several people instead of second hand. I think its bad to say how terrible breeders are etc and health this and that then go out and buy a puppy without regard to what was said. It really works both ways. Just my opinion. We all need to make a public commitment and be responsible if we love the breed

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