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Sabby
23rd May 2011, 09:25 PM
Sorry this is going to be long.

As some people know I changed vets a few months ago becauseof Ebony’s Luxating Pattela.

I have been weighing up the pros and cons about their boosters. When I saw the vet for Ebony’s check up I brought up the issue aboutthe boosters and that Ebony’s time had gone way over and that Harley was just at the 18 month stage. (I was told by the nurse that they will booster up to 6 month after the booster was due)

I was telling my vet about the concerns I had about booster sand that in America they only booster every 3 years. He told me that they only booster for all the things every 3 years and the 2 years in between they only give the Lepto jab. Is that what they mean in America about giving the booster every 3 years?

Also he was telling me that because Ebony & Harley are gone over the 18 month period unless the last booster due was for Lepto theywould have to start their puppy injections again, as the company that supplies the boosters won’t guarantee the booster after the 18 month.

I think I know what the vet means and I know this has been talked about on here many times but could I have peoples thoughts on this.

Pat
23rd May 2011, 10:04 PM
Sorry this is going to be long.

Also he was telling me that because Ebony & Harley are gone over the 18 month period unless the last booster due was for Lepto they would have to start their puppy injections again, as the company that supplies the boosters won’t guarantee the booster after the 18 month.


That makes absolutely no sense. The reason that puppies get a series of injections every couple of weeks has to do with interference from the mother's antibodies (maternal immunity) - i.e., they can block the effectiveness of the vaccination if the puppy has maternal immunity. An adult dog has no such concerns and would just get a booster vaccination at ANY time which will be immediately effective. If this were true, then why the heck wouldn't there be this same problem with getting the other boosters every three years?

I'm sorry, but this vet has no understanding of the principles of vaccination.

Pat

P.S. Lepto is a bacterial disease, not a viral disease like parvo, distemper and the rest, and the vaccination is only good for about six months anyway so if you have true concerns about lepto, once a year isn't going to cover your dogs adequately anyway. Also, the lepto vaccinations only cover certain servovars so make sure that the vaccination you use covers the lepto strains that have been found in your area. Lepto is also the vaccination that is implicated in most vaccine reactions in toy breed dogs. Lepto is not a particular problem in my area so my dogs have never received any lepto vaccinations - EVER.

StillPooh
23rd May 2011, 11:07 PM
My breeder has had bad reactions in her bloodlines to leptospirosis vaccine, so she doesn't give it. I told my vet that, and we're not giving it either.

We're only doing distemper/parvo/rabies. And possibly Lyme, but I am still undecided about that one.

gamefanz
24th May 2011, 12:07 AM
My breeder will give a packet to us that goes to the vet with all the health records and health contracts and in the health contract it states This breed has been known to have major reactions to Lepto. If Lepto is needed in your area, give separately after 16 weeks of age. So I don't think we will be giving that to our dog.

Becky

Karlin
24th May 2011, 12:09 AM
On lepto -- we have had reports here of people's dogs dying of this in various areas around the world, including urban areas, so i think anyone in an area that has lepto as a risk needs to consider very carefully whether not to give it. We have had people gravely ill from getting it here in Dublin as well. :( I give it every year and have no probs with it, and don't know of anyone here who has had problems with their cavaliers though the risk is slightly elevated. I also thought that it generally will be OK for about a year but it depends...? Vets should def. be giving a lepto vax that matches the needs of the area.

Maybe I have misunderstood on core vaccines but I have also always understood there is -- as with say measles boosters in humans -- a specific window in which that first booster needs to be given, after the puppy series (as someone who got measles as an adult even though I had a childhood vaccine because it wasn't understood a booster was needed, given within a certain timeframe, I have first hand experience of that one). I have always understood that if it isn't given within that window then the puppy series needs to be done again... the norm for us in rescue as we cannot know if a dog has ever been vaccinated. I don't think for that initial 1 year booster that it can be given at any time in the years following and I was told the same for cats.

Maybe this is something to clarify with someone like Jean Dodds -- her own recommendation is the puppy series, 1 year booster, then every three years for core vaccines (corrected: she now says no boosters unless needed after the one year, see below). If the one year booster didn't matter then surely she'd suggest puppy series and nothing again for three years or unless needed? I also mentioned in another thread a case where cavalier breeders a few years ago lost some dogs to a distemper wave in I think the South in the US, and dogs that died were those below the 1-year booster age that had only had puppy jabs, or those older dogs that had the weaker version of the 1 year booster.

Karlin
24th May 2011, 12:28 AM
Hmm I missed that she had a new protocol out --

http://www.weim.net/emberweims/Vaccine.html

So people could titer annually as an alternative.

I think vaccination is an area for any pet owner to read very carefully about before making decisions. I try to find a balance -- I weigh Dr Dodds' views against other recommendations. I would *never* vaccinate more frequently than every three years, though, and never again after a booster at age 7.

Part of the big issue for any dog or cat owner is that most kennels/daycare/boarding facilities will not take animals not vaccinated annually so this makes taking any other route more difficult.

Sabby
24th May 2011, 12:35 AM
On lepto -- we have had reports here of people's dogs dying of this in various areas around the world, including urban areas, so i think anyone in an area that has lepto as a risk needs to consider very carefully whether not to give it. We have had people gravely ill from getting it here in Dublin as well. :( I give it every year and have no probs with it, and don't know of anyone here who has had problems with their cavaliers though the risk is slightly elevated. I also understand that it generally will be OK for about a year but it depends...? Vets should def. be giving a lepto vax that matches the needs of the area.

Maybe I have misunderstood on core vaccines but I have also always understood there is -- as with say measles boosters in humans -- a specific window in which that first booster needs to be given, after the puppy series (as someone who got measles as an adult even though I had a childhood vaccine because it wasn't understood a booster was needed, given within a certain timeframe, I have first hand experience of that one). I have always understood that if it isn't given within that window then the puppy series needs to be done again... the norm for us in rescue as we cannot know if a dog has ever been vaccinated. I don't think for that initial 1 year booster that it can be given at any time in the years following and I was told the same for cats.

Maybe this is something to clarify with someone like Jean Dodds -- her own recommendation is the puppy series, 1 year booster, then every three years for core vaccines. If the one year booster didn't matter then surely she'd suggest puppy series and nothing again for three years? I also mentioned in another thread a case where cavalier breeders a few years ago lost some dogs to a distemper wave in I think the South in the US, and dogs that died were those below the 1-year booster age that had only had puppy jabs, or those older dogs that had the weaker version of the 1 year booster.


Sorry just to clarify Ebony is 4 years old she had her puppy vaccinations and 2 boosters since. I missed her last booster.

Harley is 3 years old had his puppy vaccination had one booster and his last booster was due 19 Nov 2010. The vets say he is allowed to go over his booster date by 6 month (that would have been 19 May) because he is gone over this date he has to start the puppy vaccinations again because the pharmaceutical company doesn’t cover boosters if they are given late.

Karlin
24th May 2011, 12:52 AM
Then that is wrong unless your dog has been titred and shows no immunity but this is highly unlikely unless it has been years and years between boosters. All the major US vet schools now recommend every THREE years for a core vaccine booster because all studies point to vaccines lasting at least that long and likely longer-- check the info on vaccines in the Library section as I supply lots of links.

There has long been reasonable indication that core vaccines actually last far longer though. I see Dr Dodds now recommends NO boosters unless needed. But three years is a decent compromise. I would never, ever vaccinate yearly. I would also change vets to one that is aware of such studies and recommendations.

RodRussell
24th May 2011, 02:11 AM
I think this is a great education on this thread. Thanx to Pat and Karlin!

Pat
24th May 2011, 02:48 AM
Maybe I have misunderstood on core vaccines but I have also always understood there is -- as with say measles boosters in humans -- a specific window in which that first booster needs to be given, after the puppy series (as someone who got measles as an adult even though I had a childhood vaccine because it wasn't understood a booster was needed, given within a certain timeframe, I have first hand experience of that one). I have always understood that if it isn't given within that window then the puppy series needs to be done again... the norm for us in rescue as we cannot know if a dog has ever been vaccinated. I don't think for that initial 1 year booster that it can be given at any time in the years following and I was told the same for cats.
If the one year booster didn't matter then surely she'd suggest puppy series and nothing again for three years or unless needed? I also mentioned in another thread a case where cavalier breeders a few years ago lost some dogs to a distemper wave in I think the South in the US, and dogs that died were those below the 1-year booster age that had only had puppy jabs, or those older dogs that had the weaker version of the 1 year booster.

The only reason that the puppy series for parvo and distemper is a "series" is because the exact moment when maternal immunity ends can't be determined so vaccs are given at several week intervals to "cover all bases." For example, if you give the first and second puppy vaccs and the pup was covered by maternal immunity at those times, the vaccs are ineffective. If maternal immunity ends two weeks after you gave those two vaccs, your pup is vulnerable because the first two vaccs in the series didn't do anything. Research has determined the earliest and latest that maternal immunity ends, so the series covers all contingencies. This is not a series such as human vaccs for hepatitis, for example, where there is a "build-up" of immunity. One year boosters are extremely critical because they are given when a dog's immune system is fully mature. Puppy vaccs won't cover a dog for life because they are given to an animal with an immature immune system. A one year booster can potentially cover a dog for 7 to 15 years (per duration of immunity studies done by Ron Schultz). I adopted a young adult female off the street last year, and she did not require any "series" of vaccs. Because her history was unknown, she got ONE distemper/parvo vacc and ONE rabies vacc. Period. This is because she was an adult and her immune system was fully mature. I could now go to a three year protocol if I so desire, or I can end vaccinations forever if that is my choice and I decide to break the rabies law. What the heck is "the weaker version of the one year booster for parvo"??? If you are giving adult rescues multiple parvo, distemper and rabies vaccs, you are wasting money and needlessly assailing a dog's immune system.

Pat - links and direct quotes from links below:

http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/DODDS-CHG-VACC-PROTOCOLS.HTM

Quote from Dr. Dobbs found at above link: "As combination vaccines contain antigens other than those of the clinically important infectious disease agents, some may be unnecessary; and their use may increase the risk of adverse reactions. With the exception of a recently introduced mutivalent Leptospira spp. vaccine, the other leptospirosis vaccines afford little protection against the clinically important fields strains of leptospirosis, and the antibodies they elicit typically last only a few months."

http://www.caberfeidh.com/PuppyVax.htm

"Conventional vaccine protocols are designed to give multiple vaccinations to puppies a few weeks apart. Most people and even many veterinarians believe that more than one vaccine is needed to "prime" the immune system or build immunity, but in the case of modified live virus vaccines for parvo and distemper, this isn't really necessary.

We don't repeat vaccinations for parvo and distemper because we need vaccines more than once to form immunity. They are repeated for two basic reasons only: Habit, and to catch those few individuals who for some reason don't respond to the first vaccination. A single immunizing dose of a modified live virus vaccine - in other words, one vaccine that works - will form long term, probably lifetime, immunity to parvo and distemper. (Kirk's Current Veterinary Therapy XIII; 2000; "Vaccines and Vaccinations: Issue for the 21st Century", Richard B. Ford and Ronald D. Schultz; (Kirk's Current Veterinary Therapy XI, "Canine and Feline Vaccines," Phipps, Schultz; R.D. Schultz, "Considerations in Designing Effective and Safe Vaccination Programs for Dogs," May 2000; Schultz, "Duration of Immunity to Canine Vaccines: What We Know and Don't Know.")"

"Some puppies will be given a vaccination and not form immunity (seroconvert). This can be due to improper vaccine storage or administration, but it's usually due to improper timing of the vaccine. Puppies get antibodies (passive immunity) from their mothers in the two days after birth, from the colustrum. If you vaccinate a puppy at a time when maternal antibody levels are high, those antibodies can prevent the virus in the vaccine from triggering immunity in the puppy. It's possible for a pup to have enough maternal antibody to inactivate the parvo vaccine, but not enough to protect from disease."

The answer is not to vaccinate earlier or more frequently, but to vaccinate scientifically. Earlier vaccination is clearly a doomed strategy, because maternal antibody wears off over time, and the puppy would have had more, not less, maternal antibody at a younger age. More frequent vaccination will often make the problem worse, as well, because it takes up to two weeks for immunity form after a vaccination is given; it's not instantaneous. If another vaccine, even for a different virus, is given during the two week period following a vaccination, it can interfere with the immunity from the first vaccine as well as the second. Waiting a bare minimum of two weeks between vaccinations is an immunological requirement. Three is better.

This problem is actually less critical than it was in the past. In the early 90s, Dr. Ronald Schultz did a study showing that some available canine parvovirus vaccines were not providing protection even when given according to label directions. Since then, nearly all approved canine parvovirus vaccines have been reformulated to break through resistance from maternal antibodies, and provide immunity at a much younger age, so this problem is less common now. These are called "high titer" vaccines.

Other causes for non-conversion include improper vaccine shipping, storage, or handling, using a low quality vaccine, or immune problems in the puppy. Most of the time when dogs get a disease shortly after vaccination, it's because the dog encounters the pathogen in a vet's office, a vaccine clinic, or a shelter. It is not a case of primary vaccination failure. It is a case of the dog not being immunized at all at the time they encounter the virus. However, while extremely rare, it's not completely unknown for modified live viruses to "revert to virulence" and become able to cause the very disease they were given to prevent. In order to determine if this happened, have your veterinarian order a DNA test on your puppy's virus, to see if it's the "wild" parvovirus, or the vaccine strain. If it is the vaccine strain, the vaccine manufacturer should be reported and should be liable for all your veterinary bills as well. Contact an attorney for more information. I should stress again that this rarely happens.

Pat
24th May 2011, 02:55 AM
Part of the big issue for any dog or cat owner is that most kennels/daycare/boarding facilities will not take animals not vaccinated annually so this makes taking any other route more difficult.

Hmmmm.......well that one is really easy for me - do something that I think will be harmful to my dogs in order to board them at a kennel........or don't use a facility that requires annual vaccs.

That's a no-brainer for me. If a requirement to board was to run over my dog with my car, I think it would be easy to pass on that one! This is exactly the same in my mind.

Pat

waldor
24th May 2011, 03:56 AM
...my vet..... told me that they only booster for all the things every 3 years and the 2 years in between they only give the Lepto jab. Is that what they mean in America about giving the booster every 3 years?.

The *only* vaccine I am aware of over here that can be given every three years is the rabies shot. Sophie has had the "three-year" rabies vaccination. I am guessing your vet may have heard of this type, and got it all mixed up in his head.

As Pat from Atlanta said, you can do the others annually, or titer your dog. Titering is not cheaper than shots, but not giving the dog all the vaccines it does not need (if the titer result is good) is worth it, according to a lot of people.

When we had our Shih Tzu, he got every shot known to mankind, every year, because I did not know better. Sophie's breeder told me she did not give Lepto and why, told me the choice was mine, so I did my internet research as soon as I arrive home. That breeder also fed a raw diet to her cavaliers , which I had never heard of. I have learned a lot since I have gotten Sophie, and wish I had this knowledge during Alex's lifetime.

I had the vet give Sophie her one-year booster shots last summer, along with the three-year rabies shot. I don't do Lepto because she is always on leash and I won't let her drink from puddles. My vet tried to talk me into Lepto, even mentioned a Cavalier that died of Lepto right after the floods here last year, but I don't see the need for it with our situation.

mommytoClaire
24th May 2011, 03:59 AM
A question I would have is do those of you who don't vaccinate after the 1st year, have titer tests just to see what the results are?

Also, I noticed in the fine print of my pet insurance contract it requires current vaccinations.....I know Pat you've decided to drop your insurance, but was wondering what others think about this clause? I have PetPlan.

Does the UK require rabies every year if you intend to license your dog? It's 3 years here.

Erin2854
24th May 2011, 08:49 AM
I totally agree with everything that Pat has posted on the topic.

MommytoClaire..I have Petplan too and it does not require them to be vaccinated. It just states that if they get something that they are NOT vaccinated for then they will not cover it. Like if your dog contracts Parvo and you have not vaccinated against it, they will not cover treatment. I just pulled up my terms and conditions page and this is what it says...

"To be afforded coverage for the diseases listed below, you must keep your pet vaccinated at your expense, as recommended by your primary vet. We will not pay any claims that result from or are related to any illness below that a vet recommended vaccine would have prevented."

-Canine distemper
-Canine adenovirus 2
-Canine parvovirus
-Canine parainfluenza
-Leptosspirosis
-Rabies

Brian M
24th May 2011, 10:30 AM
Hi Sabby

The problem many of us in the UK have who are insured with AXA and cannot now change due to pre existing conditions have to abide by two of their clauses otherwise we may find on a claim we wont be covered .
AXA state
You must ensure that Your Pet has
received the required vaccinations,
failure to comply with this may jeopardies
Your claim or cover – please refer to the
General Conditions in the Policy Booklet
for full details.

and

You must ensure that Your Pet is vaccinated each year against distemper, hepatitis, leptospirosis and parvovirus for dogs and feline infectious enteritis, feline leukaemia and cat flu for cats.

So if our Vets recommend these shots even though we don't agree with them what can we all do ,I have phoned many vets in my area and they are all the same ,I have said I will come in for an annual check up and pay there charges but I don't want there annual shots but all they say is the shots are recommended .And as AXA put that last paragraph in their terms and conditions of in insurance are we stuck.

But I have just spoken to AXA and good news which they are confirming by email which I will copy on here ,they have agreed that all vet recommended injections are not necessary provided no claim can be attached to any illness associated with the missing booster ie exactly like Erin states .:)

Ps And for holidays they all come with us so there is no need for kennels ,I couldnt dream of leaving them behind .

Brian M
24th May 2011, 10:38 AM
Hi Sabby

Who are you insured with ?

Sabby
24th May 2011, 10:51 AM
Hi Sabby

Who are you insured with ?


Ebony is insured with M&S. And she has not had a booster for nearly 2years. M&S policy states that they won't cover you for the illness youdon't vaccinate. They just paid £1,200 for her op so it must be right, as they ask the vet for her medical record.

My other two are with AXA. So I better vaccinate them.

My arguement is that they have to have the puppy jabs again, especialy Harley he is only a week over the booster date.

I am still stuck of what to do, my appointment with the vet is tomorrow. I could have them blood tested but I heard that is not always correct.

Pat
24th May 2011, 01:21 PM
A question I would have is do those of you who don't vaccinate after the 1st year, have titer tests just to see what the results are?

Also, I noticed in the fine print of my pet insurance contract it requires current vaccinations.....I know Pat you've decided to drop your insurance, but was wondering what others think about this clause? I have PetPlan.

Does the UK require rabies every year if you intend to license your dog? It's 3 years here.

I actually have both of my Cavaliers on PetPlan now (picked it back up for Tucker six weeks before his MRI just in case) and I don't vaccinate yearly (or every three years for that matter). I don't do titers either as I think they are only helpful if you need them for things like boarding or licensing. Since I stopped annual vacs in 1997, I am quite confident with duration of immunity so I'd rather spend the money one would spend on titers for other things like "wellness" blood chemistry.

My understanding is that there is no rabies in the UK so rabies vaccinations are not necessary or required.

Insurance companies only require vaccinations in order to pay out on illnesses that vaccinations would prevent - in other words, they won't pay for parvo or distemper treatment if you aren't "current" on vaccs. They wouldn't refuse to pay for SM, for example, if vaccinations weren't "current."

Pat

Pat
24th May 2011, 01:36 PM
The *only* vaccine I am aware of over here that can be given every three years is the rabies shot. Sophie has had the "three-year" rabies vaccination. I am guessing your vet may have heard of this type, and got it all mixed up in his head.

As Pat from Atlanta said, you can do the others annually, or titer your dog. Titering is not cheaper than shots, but not giving the dog all the vaccines it does not need (if the titer result is good) is worth it, according to a lot of people.

That's not accurate - many US vets and all of the major US vet teaching schools recommend core vaccines (parvo, distemper and rabies) to be given every three years, not "just" rabies. And that three year option is really just a compromise as many vets believe the duration of immunity if far longer than three years. (google research by Ron Schultz.)

And I DIDN'T say what you quoted above - where did you read that? I personally haven't done annual vaccinations OR titers since the late 1990's. Many in the US now only do core vaccines every three years per Dodds protocol (I pasted a link to protocol). I did specifically say that if lepto is a concern, a vaccination would be necessary closer to every six months as the duration of immunity for lepto is quite short. This is because lepto is a bacterial disease and not a viral disease like parvo and distemper. If I was concerned about lepto, I'd also want to ensure that my vet was using the most current vaccine covering the servovars in my area.

Pat

StillPooh
24th May 2011, 02:20 PM
I don't vaccinate yearly (or every three years for that matter). I don't do titers either as I think they are only helpful if you need them for things like boarding or licensing. Since I stopped annual vacs in 1997, I am quite confident with duration of immunity so I'd rather spend the money one would spend on titers for other things like "wellness" blood chemistry.We do titers and have found Clancy to have continued immunity for distemper/parvo, but had to vaccinate for rabies as his antibodies were medium to low. We do not kennel him, but don't want to risk him coming into contact with an infected wild animal either.

Our cats, on the other hand, are 8 and 10 and have not been vaccinated in the past 6 years. They never go outside or come into contact with strange cats.

Karlin
24th May 2011, 03:19 PM
Interesting discussion; thanks to all contributors! :)

Pat I think I will reconsider every three years for mine and maybe titre every three years instead. I agree about boarding facilities -- use one that doesn't require annual vaccines. many will discuss this with the person or accept every three years. The vast majority though want every year -- which can make it hard for dog and cat owners who may notlive in an area with lots of choice for boarding.

On lepto: drinking from puddles is not the only way animals get this -- swimming, walking along a creek or lake or pond, walking through damp grass or plant borders or fields, sniffing, licking paws that might have come in contact... all of these are ways it can be transmitted. All you need is for a rat to have urinated somewhere a dog comes in contact with and then ingests -- easy to happen even if a dog is merely sniffing along a grass verge. Many dogs if you watch carefully, also actually lick other dogs' pee off walls or ground when sniffing -- another possible route of transmission for city/town dogs.

While as Dr Dodds says, there may have been only 12 cases in Calif of lepto you'd have to assume in (great?) part that is because most vets vaccinate for lepto. I have heard of more cases in Ireland annually where there are far fewer people and dogs. It is this kind of pro/con that makes it hard to know what to do. I do not accept that everything Dr Dodds says is correct (as I know researchers who would dispute some conclusions, but that is normal and correct for there to be scientific debate). It does worry me a bit that one can see from reading boards and email lists and websites, that many take Dr Dodds as the only authority, and more so that they only read the main protocol and not all her careful notes that state the protocol does not necessarily suit all dogs, all geographic regions, and so on -- she is a lot more nuanced than the message most pass along about her recommendations.

GraciesMom
24th May 2011, 08:25 PM
Hmm I missed that she had a new protocol out --

http://www.weim.net/emberweims/Vaccine.html

So people could titer annually as an alternative.

I think vaccination is an area for any pet owner to read very carefully about before making decisions. I try to find a balance -- I weigh Dr Dodds' views against other recommendations. I would *never* vaccinate more frequently than every three years, though, and never again after a booster at age 7.

Part of the big issue for any dog or cat owner is that most kennels/daycare/boarding facilities will not take animals not vaccinated annually so this makes taking any other route more difficult.

Thank you so much for this very helpful link and all the great discussion on this topic!!! Gracie is coming up for several shots this summer and lots to think about.

waldor
25th May 2011, 12:49 AM
That's not accurate - many US vets and all of the major US vet teaching schools recommend core vaccines (parvo, distemper and rabies) to be given every three years, not "just" rabies. And that three year option is really just a compromise as many vets believe the duration of immunity if far longer than three years. (google research by Ron Schultz.)


My vet group (Auburn grads) always scheduled annual vaccinations with our last dog. Sophie had 1-yr boosters last summer, so I don't know if they've changed their protocol here.




And I DIDN'T say what you quoted above - where did you read that?My mistake and I apologize. I misinterpreted your post. My sincerest apologies.

mommytoClaire
26th May 2011, 04:52 AM
Erin, thanks for clearing that up. I am having computer issues, and haven't been able to print off my coverage. They are sending me a hard copy. I suppose I could have gone and looked :), but I was being lazy (bad). Well, not lazy, I'm having shoulder arm issues, and sitting in my computer chair for long periods is causing me major issues.

So, Claire's annual she just had, will be the last of her shots she'll be having for quite a while. I know it won't make the Vet happy, but......oh well. I do think I'll stick with the lepto though. We only have 6 months of good weather so, I'm probably safe from November through April.

I will go to the next annual loaded with print off's of all the studies done on this subject.

anniemac
30th August 2011, 05:11 PM
Hmm I missed that she had a new protocol out --

http://www.weim.net/emberweims/Vaccine.html

So people could titer annually as an alternative.

I think vaccination is an area for any pet owner to read very carefully about before making decisions. I try to find a balance -- I weigh Dr Dodds' views against other recommendations. I would *never* vaccinate more frequently than every three years, though, and never again after a booster at age 7.

Part of the big issue for any dog or cat owner is that most kennels/daycare/boarding facilities will not take animals not vaccinated annually so this makes taking any other route more difficult.

You know some have different views on vaccines but would this link be most up to date to give to a new vet to see their views? Elton just got all of them but I want a vet that is not as close minded as the one before so I want to see what he says.

Thanks

Karlin
30th August 2011, 05:23 PM
Well I don't think there's necessarily a 'best' -- and the link above is recommendations for California, by one breeder, so is likely not to be the same for other territories. And as Dr Dodds clearly states these are a matter of her own opinion and vets may have solid professional reasons to do otherwise, plus all regions are different and individual dogs are different. Not all people agree, in part or in full, with Dr Dodds either. Dr Dodds says:


Note: The following vaccine protocol is offered for those dogs where minimal vaccinations are advisable or desirable. The schedule is one I recommend and should not interpreted to mean that other protocols recommended by a veterinarian would be less satisfactory. It's a matter of professional judgment and choice.


That is why the owner needs to read what is available and talk to their vet and come to their own decision -- there is no such thing as a definite guideline or a single approach.

The best link is this for Jean Dodds rather than the one above which is only specific to a single breeder and one locality.

http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/DODDS-CHG-VACC-PROTOCOLS.HTM

anniemac
30th August 2011, 05:34 PM
Well I don't think there's necessarily a 'best' -- and the link above is recommendations for California, by one breeder, so is likely not to be the same for other territories. And as Dr Dodds clearly states these are a matter of her own opinion and vets may have solid professional reasons to do otherwise, plus all regions are different and individual dogs are different. Not all people agree, in part or in full, with Dr Dodds either. Dr Dodds says:



That is why the owner needs to read what is available and talk to their vet and come to their own decision -- there is no such thing as a definite guideline or a single approach.

The best link is this for Jean Dodds rather than the one above which is only specific to a single breeder and one locality.

http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/DODDS-CHG-VACC-PROTOCOLS.HTM

Thanks Karlin,

I just want to be able to discuss it with a new vet. My old one said it was a bunch of nonsense and compared over vaccinations to fillings poisoning you. Hence why I am changing. I know some will have different views but I would want to have a vet that would be willing to discuss things with me. I just wanted to take something to show him to see what his views were (no wrong or right) but just so I can get a feel of how he is. Since Elton doesn't need anything now, it will be more of learning how he is when dealing with questions.

Does that make sense? I don't like ones that don't talk or act like they know more than anyone else.

anniemac
30th August 2011, 05:36 PM
Vaccines is not why I changed vets, but because of his attitude as knowing everything but not really. SM is location related by the way :rolleyes:. Maybe he is the same vet that told the breeder about being quarantined in recent thread. J/K

Kate H
30th August 2011, 06:47 PM
Just to muddy the waters, we had a discussion on another (obedience) forum about titre testing - with several scientific studies quoted with evidence that it is often not very accurate and therefore of limited value. Can't win, can you?!

Kate, Oliver and Aled

StellaLucyDesi
30th August 2011, 11:31 PM
Hi all! I just switched to a holistic vet and I love her! I haven't seen the gentleman vet yet, but will eventually. They have come highly recommended. They are not that close to home though, but it's fine. There is an emergency clinic close if needed. Anyway, my old vet was very pro vaccines...no questions asked. Very traditional vet, actually. Things have been fine, but in the back of my mind I knew I wanted a more holistic vet. Friends of mine have been using the new one for awhile. They actually recommend raw and carry the Nature's Variety products (which I'm feeding atm) and Steve's Real Food in their clinic. They do titers!! Yay! In fact, Hazel with her grade 1-2 heart murmur just got titered for parvo and distemper. Hazel is 4 years old. Her titer came back that she is immune. My other vet would've just vaccinated away. I do think Hazel will have to have her rabies, though, as it's a law in this state that every 3 years is rabies shot time. Like I said, I am loving this new vet for my gang. So far, they've seen Lucy and Hazel. They also saw Desi (he passed away recently, though, 5/31/03 - 8/16/11 RIP my angel). They will see Princess, my cat, this month and Stella next month.

Karlin
31st August 2011, 01:11 AM
Yes titres are an issue as far as accuracy goes. My understanding is that they are most likely to show there's no protection when there is, rather than the other way around, which I suppose is better.

I think some holistic vets lead people to believe titres are more reliable than they are however -- or perhaps don't fully explain their limitations. The whole area is confusing to say the least.

Holly
3rd September 2011, 03:32 AM
I also follow the same vaccine protocol as Pat. Here are a couple of interesting articles about the Lepto vaccine... one wonders whether the "comeback" of Lepto is actually due to the vaccination... interesting reading. Someone posted these on another board not too long ago.

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/lepto-comeback/
http://www.2ndchance.info/leptospirosis.htm