PDA

View Full Version : Bad Breeders



Davecav
26th May 2011, 12:58 AM
I think this is the first thread I've started, but after meeting lots of people in my area when walking Martha, and talking to them about their Cavaliers, I want to pose this for discusion.

There is a person within a few miles of where I live who breeds Cavaliers, (this person) does not have a big set-up and, from what I can deduct does keep their dogs in the house. But over a period of about 6 - 7 yrs, I have heard whispers, and in particular the last few months when I have met a number of people who have bought from (this person) who have all had problems with slipping patella in particualr, eye problems - which shouldn't be a problem these days, and hearts, and other problems + weedy pups etc.

I spoke to one person who had tried to ring this breeder to complain - and the answerphone was all they got time and time again.

This breeder doesn't KC reg their dogs - and obviously doesn't health test (Humph) but - here is the question - What can be done about them???????????????????

Everyone I've spoken to is trying to spread the word, and now I know, I too am doing the same. But there is a lot of heartbreak behind all this. In the meantime the breeder carries on. They are not affiliated to any club (of course) - are not bothered about KC registration - but are turning out really unhealthy stock.

I was able to see a pediggree of one of the pups, and although about four generations back on the Sire's side, there was a recognisable affix or two, the dams side had absolutely nothing for five geneations. (the names were like - Molly Flolly , and Bertie Brug, if you get the drift.)

Another question that I've discussed with the owners of the dogs that have had problems is what are vets doing about this? Surely if someone comes into their practice and asks for advice, shouldn't they be telling them to avoid this person?? Or do they rub their hands together and say great thats another few hundred quid on a patella op coming our way?



how can anyone make a difference here?! Sorry for this going on a bit but there are a number of local people who have and are dealing with the consequences of this breeder!:-X

ps- I know those who live near puppy farms must come across this all the time, but what can be done, it's as if the owners of these dogs and others who want things to change are completely powerless.

anniemac
26th May 2011, 02:54 AM
I can't believe its your first thread and on breeding :) I think the only thing you can do is something like what tania does or what one regional club in the usa does is education. They will put an ad in the local paper and will tell potential buyers what to ask a breeder and stay away from. Actually naming a certain breeder publically could be slander (don't know) but wouldn't go there because if you were in the usa, they wouldn't be breaking any laws.
All I will say is I sent out several emails and newsletters (gemma on forum will know) to people in the charlotte meet up group on cavalier health, importance of clubs and finding a breeder, etc. But then someone sent an email out about cavalier puppies in time for christmas. Look how cute etc. Someone said to me they are a "good price". I'm not sure they are even AKC registered so everything sometimes goes out the window. Some may listen, some not, but it sucks.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Cathy T
26th May 2011, 04:49 AM
I don't know what can be done legally....but we have a notorious byb here who has produced numerous dog with issues...I bad mouth her to anyone and everyone. I don't mean that in a nasty way, but if I "talk Cavalier" with anyone I am always certain to mention her name and hope that they will continue to pass the word, she is trouble and stay away. Word of mouth can be pretty dang powerful ;)

Sabby
26th May 2011, 10:42 AM
We have a very large pet store (privately owned) in our village. It’s always very busy. Once I had my Harley with me and a middle aged couple approached me and said how beautiful he is and that they have Cavaliers and that they are looking for a Ruby Stud Dog for their bitch. Alarm Bells started ringing as I have heard there is a bad Cavalier Breeder near me. I said that Harley had been neutered and started talking about Cavalier Health Problems. They looked at me blankly like I was on another planet. If you educate the public that is half the battle won. But unfortunately a lot of people rather opt for a cheaper puppy and then they cry when the poor dog has problems. What I have done is laminated Tania’s Cavalier Matters leaflet and I have paid for it to be permanently displayed in the Pet Shop.

Karlin
26th May 2011, 10:44 AM
You have hit the nail on the head for one of the greatest frustrations -- how do you deal with this kind of person when they may not be doing anything clearly illegal or 'cruel' but are indifferent, exploitative breeders. :)

I find vets say very little. If they said to every client who mentions plans to breed their dog, "Well, have you done the appropriate health testing for the breed? You know they are prone to X,Y and Z and this really must be done as a dog that seems outwardly healthy may actually pass along terrible conditions to its puppies..." and added, "Are you sure you are willing to risk the life of your own dog and are able to deal with serious and expensive complications, including the death of puppies, during a whelping?" I am sure that would greatly reduce home breeding at least.

penquite
26th May 2011, 11:52 AM
This breeder doesn't KC reg their dogs - and obviously doesn't health test (Humph) but - here is the question - What can be done about them???????????????????

Another question that I've discussed with the owners of the dogs that have had problems is what are vets doing about this? Surely if someone comes into their practice and asks for advice, shouldn't they be telling them to avoid this person?? Or do they rub their hands together and say great thats another few hundred quid on a patella op coming our way?



how can anyone make a difference here?! Sorry for this going on a bit but there are a number of local people who have and are dealing with the consequences of this breeder!:-X

ps- I know those who live near puppy farms must come across this all the time, but what can be done, it's as if the owners of these dogs and others who want things to change are completely powerless.


It is very difficult if the breeder is not KC registering the puppies. One option would be to go to trading standards at the local council. These puppies are obviously not fit for the purpose that they were sold for.
Hope this helps.
All the best
Sue

Tania
26th May 2011, 12:00 PM
This issue drives me crazy.

The person who bred Molly does not health test, I have been contacted by four owners who have dogs with severe sm and other diabolical conditions, this also includes a Cavadoodle.

Legally there is absolutely nothing you can do.

I run adverts on some of the online pet stores,

We complained and one has banned her from advertising :thmbsup:

I have complained to the local authority but she is licensed so they are not interested.

This woman is also a show judge for a completely different breed, we have complained to them but received a fob off letter.

I have complained to the KC but they are not interested.

This woman is named and shamed on the Puppy Love website.

I will not give up, I want this woman to know how much misery she is causing.

When I am approached by someone who has purchased a puppy in good faith. They then don't know how and can't cope with the health problems and worst of all cannot afford the medication. Everyone here knows this means that dog is suffering terribly. This is the part that really drives me crazy :-X

I put leaflets everywhere, most people, vets, pet stores will let you display them for nothing.


We have a new leaflet advertising the Cavalier Puppy Website. I am happy to send these out Free of charge.




http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5096/5517246950_7ca20db7d6.jpg

Bet
26th May 2011, 12:43 PM
This issue drives me crazy.

The person who bred Molly does not health test, I have been contacted by four owners who have dogs with severe sm and other diabolical conditions, this also includes a Cavadoodle.

Legally there is absolutely nothing you can do.

I run adverts on some of the online pet stores,

We complained and one has banned her from advertising :thmbsup:

I have complained to the local authority but she is licensed so they are not interested.

This woman is also a show judge for a completely different breed, we have complained to them but received a fob off letter.

I have complained to the KC but they are not interested.

This woman is named and shamed on the Puppy Love website.

I will not give up, I want this woman to know how much misery she is causing.

When I am approached by someone who has purchased a puppy in good faith. They then don't know how and can't cope with the health problems and worst of all cannot afford the medication. Everyone here knows this means that dog is suffering terribly. This is the part that really drives me crazy :-X

I put leaflets everywhere, most people, vets, pet stores will let you display them for nothing.


We have a new leaflet advertising the Cavalier Puppy Website. I am happy to send these out Free of charge.




http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5096/5517246950_7ca20db7d6.jpg


BAD BREEDERS


Is the only Answer ,to tell the Public .

NOT TO BY A CAVALIER BECAUSE OF THE SM AND MVD PROBLEMS Cavaliers have and about the Cost of the Medication to help to Relieve their Suffering.

If no Cavaliers were being sold that would surely Concentrate Minds. !!!!!

Bet

sins
26th May 2011, 12:58 PM
The person who bred Molly does not health test, I have been contacted by four owners who have dogs with severe sm and other diabolical conditions, this also includes a Cavadoodle.



Very frustrating and upsetting Tania.
I've seen her latest litter in the new Breed record supplement.
Naturally buyers will be swayed by her show success in her other breed and assume that she's a fine breeder.
It's just so disheartening.
Sins

anniemac
26th May 2011, 01:25 PM
You have hit the nail on the head for one of the greatest frustrations -- how do you deal with this kind of person when they may not be doing anything clearly illegal or 'cruel' but are indifferent, exploitative breeders. :)

I find vets say very little. If they said to every client who mentions plans to breed their dog, "Well, have you done the appropriate health testing for the breed? You know they are prone to X,Y and Z and this really must be done as a dog that seems outwardly healthy may actually pass along terrible conditions to its puppies..." and added, "Are you sure you are willing to risk the life of your own dog and are able to deal with serious and expensive complications, including the death of puppies, during a whelping?" I am sure that would greatly reduce home breeding at least.

Karlin you are right about most vets not doing anything. One person in the meet-up group bought her cavalier in the back of a furniture store. She talks about her vet being the best in the area with cavaliers. When she talked about breeding her male, she said her vet said he is perfectly healthy and fine. Well she had someone look after him when she was not able to take care of him for several months who neutered him (thank goodness). She was extremely upset but I was thankful. I would definately not say the vet is best with cavaliers who did not mention at the very least heart problems. He was not even 2.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

goda
26th May 2011, 04:36 PM
I notified the breeder of Luka's condition and her response was that she was putting it in his Mom's file. Well the Dad id half responsible, for one. For two, she offered no condolences, apologies, advice, etc. It was just rude, in my opinion. Bad breeder, not sure what to do about it.

Karen and Ruby
26th May 2011, 05:16 PM
Hi Tania I'd love a few leaflets to hand out and display at the dog shows I go to over the summer- maybe if I send money over to Ruperts Fund I could have a few copies or even a Hard dopy that I can print off of??

Many thanks

Soushiruiuma
26th May 2011, 05:46 PM
There's a mother and daughter who own a cavalier bitch (I thought it was a welsh springer, it doesn't even look like a cavalier). They saw me walking Guinness and asked about using him as a stud -he wasn't even a year old! I happily told them he was neutered, and then tried to explain about health problems, and the MVD protocol, but it was obviously falling on deaf ears.

I've heard from other cavalier owners that they bad mouth me and Guinness to all the other cavalier owners they meet. That I'm crazy, that he's freakishly thin (not true, they've probably just never seen a dog at ideal weight), that his nose is too short and he's probably an English toy spaniel, etc.

There's really nothing I can do to stop them from breeding their dog, but hopefully any stud they find will turn them down, and they'll just give up.

HollyDolly
26th May 2011, 10:58 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/688360.stm


This person is now judging again at championship level.

I cannot imagine anything being done about your breeder Davecav

Nanette

Davecav
27th May 2011, 01:01 AM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/688360.stm


This person is now judging again at championship level.

I cannot imagine anything being done about your breeder Davecav

Nanette

I know,.......... it's all wrong. :( So very wrong.

To get back to the local breeder in my area - I had thought about getting the people who have bought pups from this person to sign something and then submmit it to the local papers, but I really do guess that this would infringe on all sorts of libel/slander? action. Which is why these creeps just get away with it.

There are lots of us now passing the word around, but it's not going to make too much difference in the greater scheme of things, in a town of 50,000 - there is aways going to be someone who will buy a pup for £450 ... and that's the bottome line. So so very sad.:cry*ing:

Cathy T
27th May 2011, 04:08 AM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/688360.stm


This person is now judging again at championship level.

I cannot imagine anything being done about your breeder Davecav

Nanette

There's just something terribly terribly wrong about that!!

We had a gal who purchased a dog from a nasty byb here. She sued her, was interviewed on the news, and the woman is still out there going strong :mad:

Bet
27th May 2011, 10:10 AM
There's just something terribly terribly wrong about that!!

We had a gal who purchased a dog from a nasty byb here. She sued her, was interviewed on the news, and the woman is still out there going strong :mad:


BAD BREEDERS


AS I said in my Previous Post ,get the Public told ,

DO NOT BUY A CAVALIER !!!!!.

Because of their Horrendous Health Problems of SM and MVD and what the Medication costs to help their Suffering.

What other way is there, none that I can think of.


Bet

Sabby
27th May 2011, 11:36 AM
BAD BREEDERS


AS I said in my Previous Post ,get the Public told ,

DO NOT BUY A CAVALIER !!!!!.

Because of their Horrendous Health Problems of SM and MVD and what the Medication costs to help their Suffering.

What other way is there, none that I can think of.


Bet

As much as I love Cavaliers and at the beginning I said I would never have another breed, when people stop me with my three and say aren’t they a beautiful breed I say yes they are the best, loving and loyal breed I have ever owned, BUT I don’t think I would ever get another Cavalier. And then I start explaining about Ebony’s heart and her Luxating Patellas and of course I tell everybody about SM. I enjoy every minute I have with my three, but in the back of my mind it’s like sitting on a ticking time bomb. I really don’t know how I would cope if I would lose them before their time. I lost my two XBreeds when they were 15 and that was heart breaking but they had a long life, but too many Cavaliers go well before it’s their time.

Karlin
27th May 2011, 12:35 PM
I would never tell anyone not to buy a cavalier. I would tell them not to buy a cavalier from any breeder who isn't doing MRIs, using a cardiologist rather than a vet for heart auscultations before breeding, checking hips/eyes/knees.

Purebreds of any breed all have their health issues because of limited genetic diversity which has fixed certain problems in just about every breed. It is unfortunate that cavaliers are so under pressure, especially with two terrible, potentially painful and life-limiting problems like MVD and SM, but every single person can do something about it by carefully choosing their breeder. Or opt for a rescue.

I have friends with rescue mixed breeds that have terrible, painful and costly health issues as well. Another friend just had to pts a lively and bright GSD years before his time because he had severe hip dysplasia, a major GSD breed issue.

By contrast though three of mine have SM, two need minor management and have never had other health issues and are now going on 6 and 8. Leo has managed a normal life on gabapentin for 5+ of his going on 8 years; a heart murmur now but no meds for that. Never have had allergies, patella issues, hip problems, and just one so far with serious heart problems (and she has had no other problems, and is nearly 12 -- but this is still a devastating and terrible problem and really she should have had many years ahead that she will not :( ). I fully understand others who have had terrible experiences feeling they would not opt again for a cavalier, and I think there are sad and high risks of serious issues in the breed, but after endless, ongoing consideration of this issue, I'd still (for now!) rather support breeders working to change this than not have this wonderful breed.

So, while we absolutely must all focus on eradicating the serious health issues in this breed, which can be utterly devastating, I would still say that over 7 years of rescue and owning 5 of my own cavaliers, I just have not had the experience -- yet -- that would lead me to tell people not to get a cavalier.

Rather, I have had the experience that would make me argue 1) do not get a cavalier if you are not ready to handle these possible and widespread health issues and 2) that pet owners (and it will have to be them -- they hold all the financial pressure that could force change!) could change EVERYTHING for this breed if they only bought puppies from responsible, properly health testing breeders, avoided BYBs and puppy farmers, and if more went to the club AGMs and voted to benefit the breed so a small cabal isn't allowed to place roadblocks in the way of more seriously addressing breed health issues, starting with personal example of agreeing to abide fully by the club's own best breeding practice advice. When a national committee won't even do that -- proudly and responsibly, to send an important message to all club breeders --then what hope has the breed?

Mindysmom
27th May 2011, 01:46 PM
I would totally agree with Karlin. I tell people who ask about my dogs to make sure they are aware of the health problems in the breed and to choose a breeder who health tests and is willing to give you copies of the results.

My Mindy developed dry eye at 10 and cancer at about 11 1/2. Other than that she was very healthy. I know I was incredibly lucky and I've had people actually call me a liar when I tell them she didn't have MVD so I rarely mention it. In truth she never saw a cardiologist so I can't say for sure she was heart clear but at 11 years old she was enjoying my agility equipment in the backyard and the general vets never heard a murmur (and I always asked them to listen carefully).

I am not at all trying to minimize the health problems because they are serious and real but there are Cavaliers who do live a reasonably long and healthy life and I hate to see them and the breeders who bred them dismissed simply because they don't fit in with the scenario that someone wants to paint. To be honest - that is why I stopped posting on this forum when Mindy was ill and when she died.

I admire people who rescue dogs but of the people I know they rarely have gotten dogs without serious problems. Maybe I know the wrong people. I know of two who had to be put down at a relatively young age.

BYB's and other non ethical breeders (in every breed) will be around as long as puppy buyers are willing to buy from them. I have a friend who is struggling right now with her pup (non cavalier) she got from one of these breeders. The pup spent it's first several weeks in a barn - never really seeing people. Now she is having a heck of a time socializing it. He can't even go to puppy class because he is so terrified.

Margaret C
27th May 2011, 02:57 PM
I would never tell anyone not to buy a cavalier. I would tell them not to buy a cavalier from any breeder who isn't doing MRIs, using a cardiologist rather than a vet for heart auscultations before breeding, checking hips/eyes/knees.


I do not tell people not to buy a Cavalier ( although there are days when I seriously wonder whether Cavaliers should continue to be bred ) but I think anyone buying a cavalier should have the risks honestly spelt out to them, and that is why I set up www.cavalierpuppy.co.uk (http://www.cavalierpuppy.co.uk)

I will be adding some more information soon.
Faith has now had the mouth swabs done for the new DNA test for Dry Eye/Curly Coat and I will add the report when it arrives. I also intend to add something on understanding pedigrees and how to use the KC Mate Select to see how inbred your dog is, something anyone with a KC registered cavalier can do so easily by just going to http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/mateselect/inbreed/Default.aspx?breed=6149


though three of mine have SM, two need minor management and have never had other health issues and are now going on 6 and 8. Leo has managed a normal life on gabapentin for 5+ of his going on 8 years; a heart murmur now but no meds for that. Never have had allergies, patella issues, hip problems, and just one so far with serious heart problems (and she has had no other problems, and is nearly 12 -- but this is still a devastating and terrible problem and really she should have had many years ahead that she will not :( ). I fully understand others who have had terrible experiences feeling they would not opt again for a cavalier, and I think there are sad and high risks of serious issues in the breed, but after endless, ongoing consideration of this issue, I'd still (for now!) rather support breeders working to change this than not have this wonderful breed.

I agree we must support such breeders, but I do find it dispiriting that so few well known breeders are whole-heartedly working for change.
High profile health representatives are still registering litters with parents both well under two years of age and not even an eye test done on the mother.




Rather, I have had the experience that would make me argue 1) do not get a cavalier if you are not ready to handle these possible and widespread health issues and 2) that pet owners (and it will have to be them -- they hold all the financial pressure that could force change!) could change EVERYTHING for this breed if they only bought puppies from responsible, properly health testing breeders, avoided BYBs and puppy farmers, and if more went to the club AGMs and voted to benefit the breed so a small cabal isn't allowed to place roadblocks in the way of more seriously addressing breed health issues, starting with personal example of agreeing to abide fully by the club's own best breeding practice advice. When a national committee won't even do that -- proudly and responsibly, to send an important message to all club breeders --then what hope has the breed?

At the Cavalier Club AGM, where that proposal that committee members should breed to their own guidelines was defeated, there was great indignation expressed about a non-club breeder whose brood bitch had produced 4 litters before the age of three.
It was said a committee member would be appointed to scrutinise registrations and pick out breedings that so exploit these poor little cavaliers.

I wonder who will get that task?

Not, I hope, the committee member that co-owns a young dog that sired 23 litters before he was two, and a little bitch that had two litters before her second birthday?

Karlin
27th May 2011, 03:14 PM
Nor I hope, the committee member who advised a board member here that she should buy a puppy from an 18 month old sire who, like the dam, had never been heart tested, because 'they were from good heart lines'... :sl*p:

Cathy T
27th May 2011, 04:46 PM
AS I said in my Previous Post ,get the Public told ,

DO NOT BUY A CAVALIER !!!!!.

Because of their Horrendous Health Problems of SM and MVD and what the Medication costs to help their Suffering.

What other way is there, none that I can think of.


Bet

I would never tell people NOT to buy a Cavalier. But I do not downplay their serious health issues. I always give them my contact information and tell them they are welcome to contact me if they become seriously interested in the breed. Usually by the time I finish telling them our various ailments and potentially serious issues, they are shied away from the breed....and that's okay. The ones who do contact me, I know they've researched, accepted the risks, and are really interested. I want to help them. There's no reason to make people fearful of the breed but rather to educate them and encourage them to support breeders who do the appropriate health checks. My main goal is to steer them away from the BYBs.

Sabby
27th May 2011, 07:03 PM
I would not tell people not to buy a Cavalier as they are truly an amazing breed. Itís just I donít know how I would cope if my three would suffer from SM or the later stage of MVD. Itís not the money or time spend, itís seeing your dog suffer that would break my heart. Thatís why I might not have a Cavalier again.

The amount of people that stopped me with Harley at Olympia asking about Cavaliers. My husband and I spend a lot of time talking to people telling people about the health problems, puppyfarms and irresponsible breeders. As more people that can be educated the better.

StillPooh
27th May 2011, 07:11 PM
I would not tell people not to buy a Cavalier as they are truly an amazing breed. Itís just I donít know how I would cope if my three would suffer from SM or the later stage of MVD. Itís not the money or time spend, itís seeing your dog suffer that would break my heart. Thatís why I might not have a Cavalier again. Dillon literally died in my arms when his heart suddenly stopped, due to his MVD. I thought I would never ever be able to have another Cavalier and risk going through that again. :(

I lasted eight months. :-D

Bet
27th May 2011, 07:56 PM
Dillon literally died in my arms when his heart suddenly stopped, due to his MVD. I thought I would never ever be able to have another Cavalier and risk going through that again. :(

I lasted eight months. :-D


BAD BREEDERS


If I can explain why I said what I did.

If the Cavalier Buying Public can be Shocked by being told about the State of our Cavaliers' Health Problems , and less Cavaliers are being sold ,then is it not possible that the Cavalier Breeders who don't care about the Health Problems in our Breed ,when their Income dries up from the Non Sale of Cavaliers ,the ones who do care will be left to try and save the Breed.

I know that when you try to explain to the Public about the Serious Problems the Breed has, their Eyes just Glaze Over when it's mentioned to them to buy Cavaliers from Breeders who are doing Health Tests.

Iv'e been doing this for over 20 years now with the MVD problem

Got no-where .

That is what opened my Eyes to thinking that the only way to try and get the Message across to Folk wanting a Cavalier .is what happened on the Pedigree Dog Exposed TV Program,give them such a Shock especially about CM/SM and how it affects Cavaliers ,that they will have Two Thoughts about buying a Cavalier.

I'm sorry if Iv'e offended some Folk here , but I just cannot see any other way of tackling the Health Problem now in our Breed .

Start with the Cavalier Buying Public , get them told about the Risks of Buying a Cavalier and hopefully some will listen,we all know that if some-one want's a Cavalier then they will buy one, but if it's Hammered home to them that the Cavaliers have Such Serious Health Problems ,such as their Brains Being Too Big for for Their Skulls, that might just work.

It certainly looks as if there is going to no Help for the Cavalier Breed from the Kennel Club's Mate Select Information when they have stated ,for the Cavaliers ,there is no Data Stored for either CM/SM or MVD.


Bet

penquite
28th May 2011, 01:03 PM
BAD BREEDERS

It certainly looks as if there is going to no Help for the Cavalier Breed from the Kennel Club's Mate Select Information when they have stated ,for the Cavaliers ,there is no Data Stored for either CM/SM or MVD.


Bet



Hi Bet
I think the reason there is not information stored at present may be that the official schemes are not up and running yet. I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong LOL.
Hopefully, when they are in place and fully working, the information will be added.
All the best
Sue