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Brian M
26th May 2011, 08:27 AM
Hi

Caroline Klisko was on Radio 5 at 6.50 am today saying Mate Select is live from today .
It will be interesting reading comments about it .:)

Jasper and Holly
26th May 2011, 08:44 AM
What's mate select???

Brian M
26th May 2011, 08:53 AM
Hi Deb

Sorry for not explaining have a look at the links below.


http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/cgi-bin/item.cgi?id=2947

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/cgi-bin/search.cgi?qt=MAE+SELECT

Bet
26th May 2011, 09:36 AM
Hi

Caroline Klisko was on Radio 5 at 6.50 am today saying Mate Select is live from today .
It will be interesting reading comments about it .:)


MATE SELECT


Could I say I have written to the Kennel Club about their MATE SELECT ,in particular our CKCS Breed.

What I wanted an Answer to was , it is a Fact that the Researchers into the Cavaliers' SM and MVD Problems and to try and delay the Early Onset of both MVD and SM, not to Breed from a Cavalier before 2.5 years of age and to know the Health Status of the Parents at 5.

Has this been Incorporated into the KENNEL CLUB'S Mate Select for our CKCS BREED.

I am still awaiting a Reply.

Bet

Jasper and Holly
26th May 2011, 09:39 AM
'Woof, He's Fit' - The New Doggie Dating Website That Puts Health First

The first thing I thought when I saw this was is this for real! Lol

Sounds amazing. This is just what is needed to stop all this bad breeding.

Margaret C
26th May 2011, 09:41 AM
Tommy & I have just been filmed for Channel Five News. There is no guarantee that we will actually be shown as the Mate Select item may easily be dropped if something more exciting happens.

With any luck there may be a five second shot of us in the garden.

Bet
26th May 2011, 10:31 AM
MATE SELECT


Could I say I have written to the Kennel Club about their MATE SELECT ,in particular our CKCS Breed.

What I wanted an Answer to was , it is a Fact that the Researchers into the Cavaliers' SM and MVD Problems and to try and delay the Early Onset of both MVD and SM, not to Breed from a Cavalier before 2.5 years of age and to know the Health Status of the Parents at 5.

Has this been Incorporated into the KENNEL CLUB'S Mate Select for our CKCS BREED.

I am still awaiting a Reply.

Bet


MATE SELECT


I have just E-MAILED the KENNEL CLUB AGAIN with this Query.

If this is not Incorporated into the Mate Select Information, that Cavaliers have not been Bred from before 2.5 years of Age,have no SM or MVD and the Health Status of the Parents is known at 5, .

For our Cavaliers is the Mate Select Information just a waste of time.

Bet

Bet
26th May 2011, 05:37 PM
Tommy & I have just been filmed for Channel Five News. There is no guarantee that we will actually be shown as the Mate Select item may easily be dropped if something more exciting happens.

With any luck there may be a five second shot of us in the garden.


MATE SELECT


Can I give a Big THANK YOU TO MARGARET having just watched her on the TV Program.

She put the Health of our Cavalier Breed so Succinctly.


Bet

Bet
27th May 2011, 09:17 AM
MATE SELECT


I have just E-MAILED the KENNEL CLUB AGAIN with this Query.

If this is not Incorporated into the Mate Select Information, that Cavaliers have not been Bred from before 2.5 years of Age,have no SM or MVD and the Health Status of the Parents is known at 5, .

For our Cavaliers is the Mate Select Information just a waste of time.

Bet


MATE SELECT


YES IT IS , I am sorry to say .!!!

Just had a Reply back from the KENNEL CLUB with their answer to my Question.


NEITHER CM/SM nor MVD will be ACCESSIBLE for Cavaliers because our System does not Store the Results.

So I guess the Cavalier Breed is finished.

Bet

honeybun
27th May 2011, 02:42 PM
MATE SELECT



So I guess the Cavalier Breed is finished.

Bet
I do wish you would stop talking in these tones. :(Honeybun

Margaret C
27th May 2011, 02:49 PM
Tommy & I have just been filmed for Channel Five News. There is no guarantee that we will actually be shown as the Mate Select item may easily be dropped if something more exciting happens.

With any luck there may be a five second shot of us in the garden.

There was actually quite a bit of footage of Tommy on my lap while I talked about his SM symptoms & some film of us in the garden ( I bet people were confused about the other little flat faced dogs running about )

It was broadcast on Channel 5 News at 5pm & there were also interviews with the KC Secretary, Caroline Kisko and Beverley Cuddy, Editor of Dogs Today Magazine.

Unfortunately their only other news slot at 7 o'clock was only a five minute round-up because of the cricket coverage, so that was the only time it was shown.
I had a few calls from people that saw it & my darling daughter managed to record it.

Mate Select is a good initiative by the Kennel Club and another thing that will help both breeders and pet owners to know how inbred their cavaliers may be.

These are the COI of some pairings..........

Father/daughter - mother/son: 25%

Brother/sister: 25%

Half-brother/half-sister: 12.5%

Uncle/niece - aunt/nephew: 12.5%

Cousin/cousin: 6.25%

Many pedigree dogs, although seemingly unrelated, are very inbred because of the close matings of ancestors over many decades.

I checked Faith, who would not seem to be at all inbred from her five generation pedigree.............She was 6.1%, nearly as inbred as two cousins breeding together.

One of the cavalier stud dogs in the latest BRS, from a closely bred line, is a mouth dropping 33.2%

anniemac
27th May 2011, 04:58 PM
As a potential puppy buyer, asking what the COI is would not cross my mind. Really, far more important they are doing health testing and not just minimum. I would want to know breeder etc. but they are the ones that have been breeding and know lines (at least in the USA) and would know far more than me. It doesn't take long to know who is doing what and when I got serious of couse I am sure they would give me certificates even if I didn't ask.

The only way is to get involved and go to shows, be a member of the clubs, they are some that have good points. I highly doubt any breeder that was breeding with health as a priority (there are some) would be breeding dad/daughter.

Margaret C
27th May 2011, 06:32 PM
As a potential puppy buyer, asking what the COI is would not cross my mind. Really, far more important they are doing health testing and not just minimum.

It would not cross many buyers' minds, which is why I am writing about it here.
Checking that their puppy does not come from lines that are too inbred is another thing that an educated UK puppy buyer can do to help give themselves a better chance of a healthy pet & the breed a better future.

Asking these questions, as well as asking about health tests, will persuade breeders to look at the amount of inbreeding in their dogs and encourage them to plan matings that reduce it.



I highly doubt any breeder that was breeding with health as a priority (there are some) would be breeding dad/daughter.

I did not say that any cavalier breeder would be doing such close matings ( they are now banned in the UK )
What I am pointing out is that many of our seemingly unrelated cavaliers can share more genes, and therefore have a greater chance of inherited problems, than a puppy from a parent/child breeding.

This is a legacy of generations of close breeding. and the UK Kennel Club has introduced this Mate Select programme because this problem is so common in pedigree dogs.

Bet
28th May 2011, 09:42 AM
It would not cross many buyers' minds, which is why I am writing about it here.
Checking that their puppy does not come from lines that are too inbred is another thing that an educated UK puppy buyer can do to help give themselves a better chance of a healthy pet & the breed a better future.

Asking these questions, as well as asking about health tests, will persuade breeders to look at the amount of inbreeding in their dogs and encourage them to plan matings that reduce it.




I did not say that any cavalier breeder would be doing such close matings ( they are now banned in the UK )
What I am pointing out is that many of our seemingly unrelated cavaliers can share more genes, and therefore have a greater chance of inherited problems, than a puppy from a parent/child breeding.

This is a legacy of generations of close breeding. and the UK Kennel Club has introduced this Mate Select programme because this problem is so common in pedigree dogs.


MATE SELECT


May I add to my Previous Posts , with the Replys I 've received from the Kennel Club about their MATE SELECT , it seems as if they are a wee bit unwilling to accept that Good Breeding MUST BE LINKED WITH HEALTH AND WELFARE

IN-BREEDING which makes Genetic Problems be brought to the Fore, has to be involved with Health and Welfare.

So I will say again, if the CM/SM and MVD Health Problems are not being Involved with our Cavalier Breed in the Kennel Club's MATE SELECT how is it going to be of any use to our Cavaliers.

I am sorry if what I am saying is causing Distress to some ,but the Facts about the Health in our Beloved Cavaliers has to be faced.

About 90% have CM

50% have a Heart Murmur at 5-6 years of age, this is no better than about 18 years ago,nearly most Cavaliers are Carriers of the MVD Gene/Genes.

This means that when TWO Carriers are Mated to-gether , even if they don't have MVD ,there is every chance of the Off-Springs being Affected with MVD.

We have to STOP DELUDING OURSELVES that all is well with our Cavalier Breed , even the Kennel Club is mentioning an OUT CROSS for Cavaliers.


Bet

ByFloSin
28th May 2011, 12:36 PM
I would have liked to see a value put upon grandfather/granddaughter matings too. When looking at many modern pedigrees IMHO there is still a high proportion of these relationships shown, often featuring mutual grandparent(s) on both sides and of course the further back you look the more common it gets.

Nothing is perfect, but surely this is a good start:xctly:

Margaret C
28th May 2011, 12:55 PM
I would have liked to see a value put upon grandfather/granddaughter matings too. When looking at many modern pedigrees IMHO there is still a high proportion of these relationships shown, often featuring mutual grandparent(s) on both sides and of course the further back you look the more common it gets.

Nothing is perfect, but surely this is a good start:xctly:


Grandfather/granddaughter or grandmother/grandson → 12.5%

sins
28th May 2011, 01:04 PM
I'm actually going to surprise myself and say I like it!
It's a neat database and easy to navigate.
If you want to buy a puppy and you know the sire and dam of the puppies.
Go to mate select.
Calculate the %COI for the theoretical mating.
The screen will give you the result..say 4.9%
Then look underneath the sire and dam.
There's a little highlighted tab "Health tests" and by clicking,you can access the heath tests carried out on sire and dam.At the moment only the eye test is online and I know it's not complete as yet.
When the BVA/KC for SM goes live,you will be able to see if the parents have at least been scanned under the scheme,if not see the actual published results.
I presume there are no objections to having such data available on the KC healthfinder?
Flo,the Mateselect carries details of the %COI for various related matings.

If you calculate the COI of an individual dog,underneath the result,there is a paragraph which tells you:
An inbreeding coefficient of 12.5% means that there is a 1 in 8 chance that a dog will inherit the same version of gene from the same dog that appears in both the sireís and damís pedigree. For example, the puppies born to a mother/son, father/daughter or brother/sister mating would be at least 25%; the risk associated with such a high inbreeding coefficient is considered too high and the KC will no longer register the puppies from such matings. The inbreeding coefficient of puppies born from a grandfather/granddaughter mating would be at least 12.5%.

So In reality,there's plenty of information available,with the potential to make more info available when the BVA/KC schemes come on line.
It's very promising I think.
Sins

gamefanz
28th May 2011, 01:16 PM
Probably a stupid question but is the Mate select website only for the UK or the USA too?
Becky

Bet
28th May 2011, 01:29 PM
I would have liked to see a value put upon grandfather/granddaughter matings too. When looking at many modern pedigrees IMHO there is still a high proportion of these relationships shown, often featuring mutual grandparent(s) on both sides and of course the further back you look the more common it gets.

Nothing is perfect, but surely this is a good start:xctly:


MATE SELECT


How is this a good start when GOOD CAVALIER BREEDING MUST BE LINKED to the Health and Welfare of our Cavaliers.


How can this be separated from MATE SELECT, so what information is MATE Select giving to Prospective Cavalier Buyers, what they want to know is ,had the Parents of the Cavalier no SM or MVD Problem when Mated,what is the Staus of the Grand- Parents,.

Surely the most Simple way is for Cavalier Breeders when Breeding from their Cavaliers.

DO NOT BREED FROM A CAVALIER WHO HAS SM OR MVD AND NOT BEFORE THE CAVALIER IS 2.5 YEARS OF AGE, and know the Health Status of the Parents at 5.

I would have thought that this is the most Sensible way to move forward when Breeding Cavaliers.

So I will repeat again, in what way is the MATE SELECT going to help our Cavaliers with their SM and MVD Problems, when those Health Problems are are rife in the Cavalier Breed .

It is just a waste of time if the Cavalier Breeders are still using Unhealthy Cavalier Breeding Stock.

I don't think the Cavalier Buying Public should be being conned into thinking that the Mate Select will be of much help to our Beloved Cavaliers and their SM and MVD Problems.

The Cavaliers have waited for over 20 years to try and get help for their MVD Problem ,have they to wait for many ,many years for Some-body to get an Answer as to how the Kennel Club's MATE SELECT will give them the Chance of Healthier ,Longer Lives.

Bet

Margaret C
28th May 2011, 01:41 PM
MATE SELECT


May I add to my Previous Posts , with the Replys I 've received from the Kennel Club about their MATE SELECT , it seems as if they are a wee bit unwilling to accept that Good Breeding MUST BE LINKED WITH HEALTH AND WELFARE

IN-BREEDING which makes Genetic Problems be brought to the Fore, has to be involved with Health and Welfare.

So I will say again, if the CM/SM and MVD Health Problems are not being Involved with our Cavalier Breed in the Kennel Club's MATE SELECT how is it going to be of any use to our Cavaliers.




At the moment Mate Select can only show the degree of inbreeding, but it will link up with the EBVs.

As I understand it, when the researchers at AHT eventually get enough SM & MVD results to be able to introduce EBVs for cavaliers, the genetic diversity of the dog, and even the overuse of popular sires, will be factored into the results that will help breeders choose less risky mating combinations.

We need the BVA/KC Scheme for MRI scans and a long promised but seemingly stalled official MVD scheme to be put in place and used by breeders.

Listening to the Health Report at the recent Cavalier Club AGM it would appear that every health initiative is disappearing into the big black hole called the 'Cavalier Health Liaison Council'

Looking at their website http://www.cavalierhealth.co.uk/ they promise...........

"we will tell you what the CHLC has agreed and what resources are available to breeders."

But unfortunately they don't, not even when you write and ask.

The website itself contains virtually no information. The list of health events finishes at 9th April and contains nothing about future health testing opportunities.

It does not inspire me to think that they are actively pursuing the official heart scheme, the setting up of a sperm bank, a database for the dry eye/curly coat & EFS DNA tests, or even a request from a leading cardiologist for help with a research project into older heart clear cavaliers.

I wonder what they are doing? Perhaps someone will read this and post a progress report.

Margaret C
28th May 2011, 01:51 PM
Probably a stupid question but is the Mate select website only for the UK or the USA too?
Becky


Not a stupid question at all. but it is only for dogs registered with the UK Kennel Club.

There are lots of UK dogs exported to USA, I know that once a dog has been exported you can no longer access the health results but I'm not sure about the Mate Select results.
I'll have to check.

Bet
28th May 2011, 01:53 PM
At the moment Mate Select can only show the degree of inbreeding, but it will link up with the EBVs.

As I understand it, when the researchers at AHT eventually get enough SM & MVD results to be able to introduce EBVs for cavaliers, the genetic diversity of the dog, and even the overuse of popular sires, will be factored into the results that will help breeders choose less risky mating combinations.

We need the BVA/KC Scheme for MRI scans and a long promised but seemingly stalled official MVD scheme to be put in place and used by breeders.

Listening to the Health Report at the recent Cavalier Club AGM it would appear that every health initiative is disappearing into the big black hole called the 'Cavalier Health Liaison Council'

Looking at their website http://www.cavalierhealth.co.uk/ they promise...........

"we will tell you what the CHLC has agreed and what resources are available to breeders."

But unfortunately they don't, not even when you write and ask.

The website itself contains virtually no information. The list of health events finishes at 9th April and contains nothing about future health testing opportunities.

It does not inspire me to think that they are actively pursuing the official heart scheme, the setting up of a sperm bank, a database for the dry eye/curly coat & EFS DNA tests, or even a request from a leading cardiologist for help with a research project into older heart clear cavaliers.

I wonder what they are doing? Perhaps someone will read this and post a progress report.


MATE SELECT


Thanks Margaret for yor Post, It's time we stood up for our Cavaliers and say to the Folk who love Cavaliers what is really happening, I have had an E-Mail from Professor Jeff Sampson yesterday ,I don't hold out much hope for the Health Information for the MATE SELECT about the Cavaliers being available for ages.

I think Pigs will Fly Sooner. !!!!!!!

Bet

gamefanz
28th May 2011, 02:31 PM
Thank you. One grandparent of my new pup comes from the UK. I know she still is in contact with the owner. Would love extra knowledge if this site does it. You can never know enough.
Becky





Not a stupid question at all. but it is only for dogs registered with the UK Kennel Club.

There are lots of UK dogs exported to USA, I know that once a dog has been exported you can no longer access the health results but I'm not sure about the Mate Select results.
I'll have to check.

Margaret C
28th May 2011, 05:37 PM
Thank you. One grandparent of my new pup comes from the UK. I know she still is in contact with the owner. Would love extra knowledge if this site does it. You can never know enough.
Becky


I tried Mate Select at Crufts and found that a planned mating from two seemingly unrelated and not obviously line bred cavaliers resulted in the puppies COI being higher than the breed average

This really puzzled me until I realised then that line bred cavaliers from show stock are a high scoring sub-population of cavaliers. It is the less inbred non-show cavaliers that bring the breed average down to 5.2%

I have only had a quick trawl through the BRS but it certainly seems to be the show stock that have the above the average COIs.( one litter of puppies at 33.7% and another 28.7%, and many others well in to double figures )

Bringing down the COI in show bred dogs, combined with breeding older health tested dogs in accordance with the guidelines is what cavalier clubs should be recommending to their members

gamefanz
28th May 2011, 07:14 PM
Interesting information. Thank you for sharing that!

Becky

Soushiruiuma
28th May 2011, 07:18 PM
This really puzzled me until I realised then that line bred cavaliers from show stock are a high scoring sub-population of cavaliers. It is the less inbred non-show cavaliers that bring the breed average down to 5.2%

I have only had a quick trawl through the BRS but it certainly seems to be the show stock that have the above the average COIs.

I've typed in names that know, all show dogs in the UK, and most were actually lower than the 5.2% average. Ive tried calculating COI's from Thistle's pedigree, and they've been much lower than I would anticipate from your statements. Did I just happen to choose less inbred dogs to look up?

Margaret C
28th May 2011, 10:15 PM
I've typed in names that know, all show dogs in the UK, and most were actually lower than the 5.2% average. Ive tried calculating COI's from Thistle's pedigree, and they've been much lower than I would anticipate from your statements. Did I just happen to choose less inbred dogs to look up?

That's interesting. Perhaps we need to compare.

Would you like to PM some of the names you are looking at and I will let you know some of the names I have been checking.

Margaret C
28th May 2011, 11:07 PM
I've typed in names that know, all show dogs in the UK, and most were actually lower than the 5.2% average. Ive tried calculating COI's from Thistle's pedigree, and they've been much lower than I would anticipate from your statements. Did I just happen to choose less inbred dogs to look up?

I had a quick look at the 12 top winning dogs ( Cavalier Club points winners) for 2010.

Ten of these 12 top cavaliers had inbreeding co-efficients above the 5.2 breed average.

The highest COI was 14.2%

Only one had a COI below the breed average. This was 4.9%.


One, very interestingly, had a notice that said


Problem

We have insufficient pedigree information to calculate a result for this dog.

Soushiruiuma
29th May 2011, 02:23 AM
That's interesting. Perhaps we need to compare.

Would you like to PM some of the names you are looking at and I will let you know some of the names I have been checking.

Yep. I'll send a quick list.

sins
29th May 2011, 09:55 AM
According to Jemima Harrisons Pedigreedogsexposed.blogspot.com

Mate Select uses the Kennel Club's electronic database as its raw material. The database was not computerised until 1980 and and the very earliest dogs recorded in it (picked up from the pedigree data for those early dogs) were born in the 1960s. Mate Select treats the first dogs in the database as unrelated founders - ie. of having a COI of 0% - when that will almost never be the case.



It would seem that the database used to calculate the %COI does not contain many of the dogs pre 1970s,it gives dogs in the 1980s like Salador Connors a ridiculously low %COI of 3.5% when it's obviously over 20%, it artificially lowers the breed average %COI.
At least this is how I interpret it.
Sins

Bet
29th May 2011, 10:15 AM
I had a quick look at the 12 top winning dogs ( Cavalier Club points winners) for 2010.

Ten of these 12 top cavaliers had inbreeding co-efficients above the 5.2 breed average.

The highest COI was 14.2%

Only one had a COI below the breed average. This was 4.9%.


One, very interestingly, had a notice that said


Problem

We have insufficient pedigree information to calculate a result for this dog.



MATE SELECT


Could I also mention that a Number of Cavalier Breeders who are Members of the UK CKCS CLUB constantly say that there are many, many Cavaliers Registered by the Kennel Club that are Bred by Cavalier Puppy Farmers.

It must be the case then, that it those Cavaliers that have been Bred in Puppy Farms who are Responsible for keeping the COI Figures at 5.5 % for the Cavalier Breed.

Also in another E-Mail I received from the MATE SELECT Office ,it said,

THAT MATE SELECT IS NOT SET UP FOR ,(Please Note This Important Information),HEALTH CONSIDERATIONS.

As Iv'e mentioned previously, MATE SELECT is of no use what-so-ever for Prospective Buyers of Cavaliers.

Those Cavalier Buyers just want to know if the Cavalier Breeder has not Bred from Cavaliers who did not have SM or MVD, and had not Bred from the Cavaliers' Parents before they were 2.5 years of age, and had known about the Health Status of their Parents at 5 .

For every-body ,the MATE SELECT has only very Limited Use, especially when the Cavalier Breeders are not given the Health Information.

Bet

Bet
29th May 2011, 12:51 PM
MATE SELECT


Could I also mention that a Number of Cavalier Breeders who are Members of the UK CKCS CLUB constantly say that there are many, many Cavaliers Registered by the Kennel Club that are Bred by Cavalier Puppy Farmers.

It must be the case then, that it those Cavaliers that have been Bred in Puppy Farms who are Responsible for keeping the COI Figures at 5.5 % for the Cavalier Breed.

Also in another E-Mail I received from the MATE SELECT Office ,it said,

THAT MATE SELECT IS NOT SET UP FOR ,(Please Note This Important Information),HEALTH CONSIDERATIONS.

As Iv'e mentioned previously, MATE SELECT is of no use what-so-ever for Prospective Buyers of Cavaliers.

Those Cavalier Buyers just want to know if the Cavalier Breeder has not Bred from Cavaliers who did not have SM or MVD, and had not Bred from the Cavaliers' Parents before they were 2.5 years of age, and had known about the Health Status of their Parents at 5 .

For every-body ,the MATE SELECT has only very Limited Use, especially when the Cavalier Breeders are not given the Health Information.

Bet


MATE SELECT


I have spent the morning comparing the IN-BREEDING of Cavaliers from Puppy Farms and others in the Recent Kennel Club Cavalier Breed Supplement.

So many of the Puppy Farm Cavaliers have IN BREEDING of about 1.5 % - 2.5% , some Show Cavaliers 14% to in the 20% Range ,even higher.

So is it the Cavaliers from Puppy Farms that are giving the Cavalier Breed the Low In-Breeding Result?

Secondly , I hate to be asking this Question,but is it now time to be considering using some Cavaliers from Puppy Farms for Breeding ,because they have such a Low Rate of IN-Breeding.

Has most of the DATA for SM and MVD for Cavaliers come from Out-With Puppy Farm Bred Cavaliers?


Bet

Davecav
29th May 2011, 09:11 PM
MATE SELECT


I have spent the morning comparing the IN-BREEDING of Cavaliers from Puppy Farms and others in the Recent Kennel Club Cavalier Breed Supplement.

So many of the Puppy Farm Cavaliers have IN BREEDING of about 1.5 % - 2.5% , some Show Cavaliers 14% to in the 20% Range ,even higher.

So is it the Cavaliers from Puppy Farms that are giving the Cavalier Breed the Low In-Breeding Result?

Secondly , I hate to be asking this Question,but is it now time to be considering using some Cavaliers from Puppy Farms for Breeding ,because they have such a Low Rate of IN-Breeding.

Has most of the DATA for SM and MVD for Cavaliers come from Out-With Puppy Farm Bred Cavaliers?


Bet
"Secondly , I hate to be asking this Question,but is it now time to be considering using some Cavaliers from Puppy Farms for Breeding ,because they have such a Low Rate of IN-Breeding."

Hi Bet

I know you ask this above question regualarly, and I have asked of you - Who is going to use these dogs from puppy farms in their breeding?

So far you haven't answered this. I would like to hear who is going to do this - are you?

On the thread re Bad Breeders I cited a local Back yard breeder who produces very sick stock, I saw a pedigree from one of their litters and there was hardly anthing traceable on it, so the COI of her breeding will probably be v.low.

I wouldn't want any of her dogs used in any breeding programme it would be a disaster! Many many of dogs produced by people who are in it just for money and mass production don't care a toss about the health of their stock. The stock may have a low COI (If you can believe their pedigrees, and that is another issue!) but in the main they certainly aren't healthy.

RodRussell
30th May 2011, 01:17 AM
It would seem that the database used to calculate the %COI does not contain many of the dogs pre 1970s,it gives dogs in the 1980s like Salador Connors a ridiculously low %COI of 3.5% when it's obviously over 20%, it artificially lowers the breed average %COI.
At least this is how I interpret it.
Sins

Bullseye. This means, to a degree, Garbage In; Garbage Out.

Bet
30th May 2011, 10:13 AM
"Secondly , I hate to be asking this Question,but is it now time to be considering using some Cavaliers from Puppy Farms for Breeding ,because they have such a Low Rate of IN-Breeding."

Hi Bet

I know you ask this above question regualarly, and I have asked of you - Who is going to use these dogs from puppy farms in their breeding?

So far you haven't answered this. I would like to hear who is going to do this - are you?

On the thread re Bad Breeders I cited a local Back yard breeder who produces very sick stock, I saw a pedigree from one of their litters and there was hardly anthing traceable on it, so the COI of her breeding will probably be v.low.

I wouldn't want any of her dogs used in any breeding programme it would be a disaster! Many many of dogs produced by people who are in it just for money and mass production don't care a toss about the health of their stock. The stock may have a low COI (If you can believe their pedigrees, and that is another issue!) but in the main they certainly aren't healthy.


MATE SELECT


Davecav


Davecav .

We have never been Breeders of Cavaliers ,although for over 20 years I have passed on the Information I have collected to the Reseachers about the health problems in our Cavalier Breed,which I have been told by them is Useful in their Research Work. That has pleased me.


















You have just asked me a Specific Question about about who will Breed some Cavaliers from Puppy Farms, I have now been in touch with the Kennel Club about this, hopefully this will answer your Question!!!

You mentioned about a Cavalier from a BYB ,it is NOT always Cavaliers from PUPPY FARMS that cause the Health Problems, a Cavalier Champion with a Low COI was diagnosed with a Heart Condition at 2.5 years of age ,died at 6.

A number of the Cavalier Puppies he Sired also died at a young age from Heart Trouble,and no this was'nt away back in the early days of the Cavalier Breed.

This is the Information I have been able to pass on to the Researchers.

Karlin, maybe I have been wrong in answering Davecav like this.

Just Scrub my Post if I have over-stepped the mark.

Bet

Bet
30th May 2011, 11:03 AM
Bullseye. This means, to a degree, Garbage In; Garbage Out.


MATE SELECT


Could I mention that what MATE SELECT will do will be to Show ,and I am only talking about our Cavaliers, how closely Present Day Cavalier Breeders are Breeding their Cavaliers.

Also it quite easy to see the Results of what close IN-Breeding has on the Off-Springs of to-day's Cavaliers.

The MATE SELECT Information mentions that the LOWER THE IN-BREEDING CO-EFFICIENT THE LOWER THE RISK OF THE OFF-SPRINGS INHERITING TWO COPIES OF THE SAME GENE CAUSING THE HEALTH PROBLEM .

If a Cavalier's CO-EFFICIENT is 12.5% ,then this means ,not my words but the Experts, that there is a 1 IN 8 CHANCE that the Cavalier will Inherit the same Version of Gene from the Same Cavalier that Appears in Both the SIRE'S and DAM'S PEDIGREE.

Here is the Big Worry for our Cavaliers, even to-day there are Many Cavalier Matings taking place which involves GRAND-FATHER TO GRAND-DAUGHTER and GRAND-MOTHER to GRAND-SON

THIS IS AN IN-BREEDING CO-EFFICIENT of at least 12.5 %

THIS MEANS ALL THE OFF-SPRINGS HAVE THE RISK of a 1in 8 Chance of developing CM or MVD

Why I am mentioning those Two Diseases the Cavaliers are Afflicted with,is because

AROUND 90% of CAVLIERS have CM

50% of Cavaliers have a Heart Murmur at 5-6 years of Age, this is no better than it was 18 years ago.

There are many of To-Day's Cavaliers in the Show Scene with much Higher IN-BRED CO-EFFICIENTS than 12.5%.


Bet

Davecav
30th May 2011, 11:14 AM
MATE SELECT


Davecav


Davecav .

We have never been Breeders of Cavaliers ,although for over 20 years I have passed on the Information I have collected to the Reseachers about the health problems in our Cavalier Breed,which I have been told by them is Useful in their Research Work. That has pleased me.




You have just asked me a Specific Question about about who will Breed some Cavaliers from Puppy Farms, I have now been in touch with the Kennel Club about this, hopefully this will answer your Question!!!

You mentioned about a Cavalier from a BYB ,it is NOT always Cavaliers from PUPPY FARMS that cause the Health Problems, a Cavalier Champion with a Low COI was diagnosed with a Heart Condition at 2.5 years of age ,died at 6.

A number of the Cavalier Puppies he Sired also died at a young age from Heart Trouble,and no this was'nt away back in the early days of the Cavalier Breed.

This is the Information I have been able to pass on to the Researchers.

Karlin, maybe I have been wrong in answering Davecav like this.

Just Scrub my Post if I have over-stepped the mark.

Bet


Thanks for your answer, I appreciate it.

I have interpreted what you say about you have been in touch with the Kennel club, that you have asked them who will breed the stock from puppy farms, fogive me if I have interpreted this incorrectly.
So you yourself have no idea who will take on this challenge?

You have said in your reply
'a Cavalier Champion with a Low COI was diagnosed with a Heart Condition at 2.5 years of age ,died at 6.' and pups he sired, also had this problem.

I don't dispute this at all, and it is a shame that he was used at stud. But there have been dogs used at stud I'm sure that were clear of heart problems and even SM? but later developed the conditions, and more importantly (unfortunately) passed those conditions on. Whatever happens breeders will not be able to totally iradicate health problems, however careful they are, as nature is such that a condition can lie dormant for generations and then suddenly manifest itself.

What is interesting is that you have shown that low COI's in themselves, aren't the answer to breeding for healthy stock. Which was the point I was making also.
If there are health issues, then outcrossing (mating for a low COI) at best will only mask those problems, maybe for a few generations, and then they will re-appear. (I know that from studying genetics a little - though not in dogs specifically)

Unless you or anyone, only breeds from healthy stock in the first place then COIs, whether high or low, are not going to make any difference.

The important thing is to use healthy tested, clear stock. I think we both agree on this ;).

Stock from puppy farms and BYBs on the whole, do not fulfill this criteria.

Bet
30th May 2011, 11:36 AM
Thanks for your answer, I appreciate it.

I have interpreted what you say about you have been in touch with the Kennel club, that you have asked them who will breed the stock from puppy farms, fogive me if I have interpreted this incorrectly.
So you yourself have no idea who will take on this challenge?

You have said in your reply
'a Cavalier Champion with a Low COI was diagnosed with a Heart Condition at 2.5 years of age ,died at 6.' and pups he sired, also had this problem.

I don't dispute this at all, and it is a shame that he was used at stud. But there have been dogs used at stud I'm sure that were clear of heart problems and even SM? but later developed the conditions, and more importantly (unfortunately) passed those conditions on. Whatever happens breeders will not be able to totally iradicate health problems, however careful they are, as nature is such that a condition can lie dormant for generations and then suddenly manifest itself.

What is interesting is that you have shown that low COI's in themselves, aren't the answer to breeding for healthy stock. Which was the point I was making also.
If there are health issues, then outcrossing (mating for a low COI) at best will only mask those problems, maybe for a few generations, and then they will re-appear.

Unless you or anyone, only breeds from healthy stock in the first place then COIs, whether high or low, are not going to make any difference.

The important thing is to use healthy tested, clear stock. I think we both agree on this ;).

Stock from puppy farms and BYBs on the whole, do not fulfill this criteria.



MATE SELECT


PERHAPS Davecav,

You will know the answer as to on the CKCS DATA ,how many Cavaliers have come from Puppy Farms and BYB's with SM and MVD.

I have also asked this Question from the Kennel Club

I am in no way sticking up for Puppy Farms, they are Horrible Places, but is it not about time the Figures of Cavaliers with SM and MVD was known in the CKCS DATA who have come from Those Places just in case there are not many ,and some that are being Bred there might have help for the Cavalier Breed in the Plight it is in to-day because of SM and MVD.

Bet

Davecav
30th May 2011, 01:09 PM
MATE SELECT


PERHAPS Davecav,

You will know the answer as to on the CKCS DATA ,how many Cavaliers have come from Puppy Farms and BYB's with SM and MVD.

I have also asked this Question from the Kennel Club

I am in no way sticking up for Puppy Farms, they are Horrible Places, but is it not about time the Figures of Cavaliers with SM and MVD was known in the CKCS DATA who have come from Those Places just in case there are not many ,and some that are being Bred there might have help for the Cavalier Breed in the Plight it is in to-day because of SM and MVD.

Bet

No I don't know how many cavaliers from puppy farms have been diagnosed with this condition, I suspect no-one knows.

Many of these poor dogs will have been PTS becuase their owners couldn't afford the treatment, or passed on to rescue centres.

Just as it's equally hard to say what proportion of cavaliers from show breeders have these conditions..
If I had to put money on it (and I'm not going to:yikes) I reckon that there is a much much higher percentage of very sick cavaliers bred by BYBs and puppy farmers.

Whatever misdemeanors show exhibitors are accused of, I think in the majority of cases you could'nt accuse them of be uncaring, and many do test and breed from healthy stock, just look at the number of dogs on the Cavalier Club website who have been tested. OK there are those who breed before 2.5yrs, but even that might start to change?. The breeder I go my cavalier from did test, though she isn't a 'big exhibitor' and they really looked after their dogs well. but I'm going off the subject a bit now.:rolleyes:

Bet
30th May 2011, 02:34 PM
No I don't know how many cavaliers from puppy farms have been diagnosed with this condition, I suspect no-one knows.

Many of these poor dogs will have been PTS becuase their owners couldn't afford the treatment, or passed on to rescue centres.

Just as it's equally hard to say what proportion of cavaliers from show breeders have these conditions..
If I had to put money on it (and I'm not going to:yikes) I reckon that there is a much much higher percentage of very sick cavaliers bred by BYBs and puppy farmers.

Whatever misdemeanors show exhibitors are accused of, I think in the majority of cases you could'nt accuse them of be uncaring, and many do test and breed from healthy stock, just look at the number of dogs on the Cavalier Club website who have been tested. OK there are those who breed before 2.5yrs, but even that might start to change?. The breeder I go my cavalier from did test, though she isn't a 'big exhibitor' and they really looked after their dogs well. but I'm going off the subject a bit now.:rolleyes:


MATE SELECT


YES DAVECAV, I am saying no more about it either, just had word back from the KC ,but it's only for my Personal Information.

All I can say it is wishful Thinking that Hoping Prospective Cavalier Buyers will be able to get Cavaliers from Many Cavalier Breeders who Carry Out Health Tests on their Cavalier Breeding Stock, those Breeders are Thin on the Ground.

I have been trying for over 20 years to get this done for the MVD Problem in our Cavalier Breed and sad to say got no-where

Thr only chance for our Beloved Cavaliers will come from the Researchers into their SM and MVD Problems, and you will know by this time where this going because of Many Cavalier Breeders Thwarting the attempt to help those Researchers.

So if Folk want a Cavalier bought from where-ever, then that is up to them, because they are getting not much help from Many of to-day's Cavalier Breeders.

It is so sad that those Cavalier Breeders who could have done some-thing to stop MVD never did, they were warned in 1983 and never bothered ,and now nearly Every Cavalier is a Carrier of the MVD GENE/GENES ,and it looks as if the SM Problem is going the same way .

What a Disgrace it is that those Cavalier Breeders who could have done some-thing,never did.


THERE ARE NONE SO DEAF AS THOSE WHO DON'T WANT TO HEAR AND NONE SO BLIND AS THOSE WHO DON'T WANT TO SEE.

What an Apt Saying for some of the Cavalier Breeders in the Cavalier Breed to-day.

Bet

RodRussell
30th May 2011, 03:04 PM
... THIS IS AN IN-BREEDING CO-EFFICIENT of at least 12.5 %

THIS MEANS ALL THE OFF-SPRINGS HAVE THE RISK of a 1in 8 Chance of developing CM or MVD ...

I don't think it means that, at all. I don't think the COI has anything to do with MVD or CM/SM. Those two disorders are well beyond being saved by following the COI.

We already know that the chances of any cavalier puppy contracting MVD are (+/-) 9.5 in 10, not 1 in 8. The same situation is the case with CM.

Margaret C
30th May 2011, 07:35 PM
I have interpreted what you say about you have been in touch with the Kennel club, that you have asked them who will breed the stock from puppy farms, fogive me if I have interpreted this incorrectly.
So you yourself have no idea who will take on this challenge?

It may be that breeders will need to consider this at some time just to bring in some genetic diversity.
I suppose it rather depends on how many show breeders will take advantage of the new initiatives designed to help them produce healthier cavaliers.

I know of a non-show bred dog with quite a few known puppy farm ancestors in the pedigree. He is a Grade A dog.



You have said in your reply
'a Cavalier Champion with a Low COI was diagnosed with a Heart Condition at 2.5 years of age ,died at 6.' and pups he sired, also had this problem.

I don't dispute this at all, and it is a shame that he was used at stud. But there have been dogs used at stud I'm sure that were clear of heart problems and even SM? but later developed the conditions, and more importantly (unfortunately) passed those conditions on.


My Monty ( Ch. Mareve Indiana ) was one of those who did not develop obvious SM symptoms until long after his stud career was over. Because he was a popular sire ( it was considered a great thing in those days, and I suppose that continues, considering there are still awards for best stud dog ) he spread SM worldwide through his champion offspring.
As it happens so did nearly other stud dog at that time, but, unlike me, their owners followed the breeders code of silence http://letsdiscussjudging.com/Omerta.html and refused to admit it even when the seriousness of the problem became apparent.

I would maintain that the fact that dogs with late onset conditions were unknowingly used, does not excuse those who deliberately use early-onset affected dogs, or owners that know there is a breed problem but still refuse to health check before they breed their dogs.



Whatever happens breeders will not be able to totally iradicate health problems, however careful they are, as nature is such that a condition can lie dormant for generations and then suddenly manifest itself.

But responsible breeders should try to limit their impact for the sake of the dogs ?



What is interesting is that you have shown that low COI's in themselves, aren't the answer to breeding for healthy stock. Which was the point I was making also..


I don't think anyone is saying it is more than one of the many things to be considered when planning a litter, but when there are litters of 33.7% and 28.7% registered in the latest BRS, perhaps the Mate Select initiative will help pet buyers avoid buying puppies from such potentially risky matings.




Unless you or anyone, only breeds from healthy stock in the first place then COIs, whether high or low, are not going to make any difference.

The important thing is to use healthy tested, clear stock. I think we both agree on this ;).

Stock from puppy farms and BYBs on the whole, do not fulfill this criteria.

But the same holds true of quite a few of the show breeders. Pet owners certainly come forward to tell us of the unhealthy untested dogs they have been sold from breeders that boast of long lived dogs with good hearts and no SM.
Interestingly these breeders are those that have very few entries in the MRI list, or the over 5 health list, and their healthy older dogs are never entered in any of the veteran classes for other people to admire.

Karlin
30th May 2011, 11:17 PM
Interestingly these breeders are those that have very few entries in the MRI list, or the over 5 health list, and their healthy older dogs are never entered in any of the veteran classes for other people to admire.

And the ones who boast of their long-lived, high COI dogs... But don't mention the ones they have bred which they know have been producing SM, for example?

Low COIs are not a solution in themselves to all problems but there isn't a geneticist alive who will not confirm that wild populations become unsustainable, collapse and die out at far lower COIs than you see even in the lowest COI dog breeds. The roll of the genetic dice means anyone -- show breeder or puppy farmer -- is going to produce the occasional high-COI dog that lives til 16 but this will be the exception -- it is ludicrous to claim, as some breeders seem to keep doing, that high COI dogs actually have greater longevity!

These dogs increasingly are going to be the genetic flukes, not the norm, especially in a breed that has as short a modern history as cavaliers. The breed only goes back to a dozen ancestors post WW11, a couple of which sadly seem to have fixed MVD and SM into the breed in the first decade or two of close interbreeding.

A higher COI means less genetic diversity -- and the well known accompaniment of gradual multiplication of genetic problems. Just because dogs can be artificially bred by humans to fix breed traits and curtail natural genetic diversity does not mean humans should not take responsibility to keep COIs as low as possible to try and limit the damage *always* eventually caused by less genetic diversity.

Bet
31st May 2011, 12:16 PM
And the ones who boast of their long-lived, high COI dogs... But don't mention the ones they have bred which they know have been producing SM, for example?

Low COIs are not a solution in themselves to all problems but there isn't a geneticist alive who will not confirm that wild populations become unsustainable, collapse and die out at far lower COIs than you see even in the lowest COI dog breeds. The roll of the genetic dice means anyone -- show breeder or puppy farmer -- is going to produce the occasional high-COI dog that lives til 16 but this will be the exception -- it is ludicrous to claim, as some breeders seem to keep doing, that high COI dogs actually have greater longevity!

These dogs increasingly are going to be the genetic flukes, not the norm, especially in a breed that has as short a modern history as cavaliers. The breed only goes back to a dozen ancestors post WW11, a couple of which sadly seem to have fixed MVD and SM into the breed in the first decade or two of close interbreeding.

A higher COI means less genetic diversity -- and the well known accompaniment of gradual multiplication of genetic problems. Just because dogs can be artificially bred by humans to fix breed traits and curtail natural genetic diversity does not mean humans should not take responsibility to keep COIs as low as possible to try and limit the damage *always* eventually caused by less genetic diversity.


MATE SELECT


I just add any-thing to the Two Excellant Posts from Karlin and Margaret only to mention ,that about a year ago this information was Posted by a Cavalier Club Member.

In the October - December 2009 Kennel Club Breed Record Supplement for Cavaliers

TOTAL NUMBER OF CAVALIER LITTERS REGISTERED 544

TOTAL NUMBER OF LITTERS REGISTERED BY CKCS CLUB MEMBERS 102 .Which is 18.75 %

In the January -March 2009 Breed Record Supplement

TOTAL NUMBER OF CAVALIER LITTERS REGISTERED 612

TOTAL NUMBER OF LITTERS REGISTERED BY CKCS CLUB MEMBERS 129 .Which is 21%.

So the 5.2 % COI must be coming from Cavaliers Registered outwith Cavalier Litters being Bred from CKCS CLUB MEMBERS Breeding Stock.
These figures are only about a 1.5 Years old, so I don't think there will have been much change.

Perhaps if the BVA/KC MRI and MVD RESULTS are Published, then it will be discovered if those Cavaliers with Low COI's out-with CKCS CLUB MEMBER BREEDERS have not so many Problems from SM and MVD

Bet

sins
31st May 2011, 01:24 PM
I'll try once more...
The COI breed average of 5.2% for cavaliers cannot be precise or accurate.
BECAUSE the computerised KC database upon which the COI calculations are based exclude the true founders of the breed and the highly inbred post war cavaliers.
Instead cavaliers from the 1960s who would have a very high COI% have been artificially allocated COI% of 0 and taken as the unrelated founders of a breed.
many of these cavaliers Bet, are on your list of long lived cavaliers accompanied by their %COI's.
It's got little to do with puppyfarms having greater genetic diversity.In fact I'd be amazed if they did, as a large breeding establishment with a few hundred bitches would not keep that many stud dogs.Again a small few dogs would be siring many litters.
Sins

Karlin
31st May 2011, 01:53 PM
Sins that is interesting on how the low COIs were set.

I do think that actually there would be better genetic diversity in many puppy farm bred dogs. A lot of them would come from a far more diverse background than show dogs that keep going back to smaller show breeding circles for champion studs and related cousins etc. As many good breeders have found, even choosing what at first seem to be distantly or non related cavaliers from other show breeders for mates, doesn;t work as planned because they often end up with a startlingly high COI when they were deliberately seeking a low COI. The cousins for example are often very closely related but a glance at pedigree alone may make them seem more distant than they actually are. Puppy farmers on the other hand are not trying to breed closely at all, and all evidence I've seen indicates they tend to have a lot of dogs through from many different sources, and don't use them for breeding for long (though they breed them intensively) -- especially if they are registering litters -- they tend to be through by age 6-ish (the age when a lot of rescues who get given puppy farm breeding dogs to rehome get the dogs, and also the age at which I have bought a few dogs cheaply off puppy farmers as they have had all the litters they can legally register by then).

There is some growing evidence that non show breeder and puppy farm dogs would have lower COIs. Bet's pedigrees are of interest to quite a few people in this regard.

Certainly a lot of dogs I get into rescue, with pedigrees, have a real diversity of dogs, not the same dogs repeating over generations. I do think that dogs from such backgrounds could be an invaluable resource in trying to rebuild the breed. It certainly bears further research to see how it works out -- especially when the KC is toying with outcrossing.

Brian M
31st May 2011, 02:14 PM
Hi

Just for interest I input my four girls and the results are ,no screening records for this dog.

1 ) Poppy - Happy Starshine 3.5 %
2 ) Daisy - Loranka's Dawns Delight 23.3 %
3 ) Rosie - Lichens Tartan Breeze 4.2 %
4 ) Lily - Ailcres Blue Emotion 8.9 %

A big difference foam our Pops to Dangerous Daisy.

Margaret C
31st May 2011, 02:52 PM
I am thinking of adding some information about inbreeding to my puppy buying advice website www.cavalierpuppy.co.uk (http://www.cavalierpuppy.co.uk)

It is a very complicated topic to simplify for a website written with first time buyers in mind.

This is my first draft..............Does it make sense to UK cavalier owners that are not familiar with inbreeding coefficients, and were you able to use your own cavaliers' names to follow the instructions and find their COIs?

I would be very grateful to have your comments...................

Pedigrees & Inbreeding

A pedigree is a dog's family tree. Breeders of Kennel Club registered cavaliers should give their puppy buyers a copy along with the registration papers.

A copy of a pedigree can be seen here... ( Will link to a copy of Monty's pedigree )

Cavaliers as a breed were recreated in 1925, when a prize was offered by an American gentleman for the dog that most resembled the little spaniels in old paintings.

All Cavaliers descend from a very few flat faced King Charles Spaniels and this means they all share a great many of the same genes.
Because of this 'small gene pool' puppies are at increased risk from inheriting the same bad genes from both parents.

As well as checking the parents' health certificates, puppy buyers would be well advised to check on just how inbred their puppy will be.

The Kennel Club now have a Mate Select programme that will allow you to check how inbred any cavalier is. This figure, known as the inbreeding coefficient ( COI ), can be worked out following the instructions here
http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/mateselect/Default.aspx

The average COI for a cavalier is 5.2%, so any figure much above this should be regarded with caution.

If you know your puppy's registered name you can work out the COI yourself, using the link 'calculation for an individual dog'.
If the litter is not yet registered ask for the parents' registered names and use the link for a 'hypothetical mating' ( this also works for existing matings)

Davecav
31st May 2011, 03:32 PM
Just one point I would like to raise, that is it looks as if the pedigrees used by the Kennel Club are inclomplete, in so far as they only go back a certain number of generations; so at the moment any inference taken from the Mate Select Site will be false.

Until the Kennel Club rectify this, you could be helping to spread incorrect information, right across the board.

You may argue it's all relative, as it affects all pedigrees, but the COI's are still being calculated using insufficient information.

I think the Kennel Club have some work to do and until they get it right this tool has deep flaws.

Maybe you could incorporate something to that effect into your information?

Margaret C
31st May 2011, 07:24 PM
Just one point I would like to raise, that is it looks as if the pedigrees used by the Kennel Club are inclomplete, in so far as they only go back a certain number of generations; so at the moment any inference taken from the Mate Select Site will be false.

Until the Kennel Club rectify this, you could be helping to spread incorrect information, right across the board.

You may argue it's all relative, as it affects all pedigrees, but the COI's are still being calculated using insufficient information.

I think the Kennel Club have some work to do and until they get it right this tool has deep flaws.

Maybe you could incorporate something to that effect into your information?

Thank you for your comments, and yes you are right, there are flaws.

( Anyone wanting to know more details can read about both the good and the bad aspects of Mate Select on this link, but don't blame me for some of the language...........
http://pedigreedogsexposed.blogspot.com/2011/05/mate-select-good-but-no-cigar-just-yet.html#comments )

I have thought carefully about what you have said, but I do not think that it would be possible to explain the drawbacks of Mate Select in one or two simple sentences.

I set up my website with two aims in mind.
The first was to give uncomplicated advice to first time cavalier buyers, and the second was to put pressure, through these more knowledgeable buyers, on those breeders who were not breeding in a responsible manner.

I have decided that including Mate Select, as it is, for the reasons stated below......................

"COIs of individual dogs will be fairly accurate, at least in terms of recent inbreeding"

"for casual breeders and pet owners, Mate Select offers a really simple, intuitive way to find out a bit of info on individual dogs, encouraging them to think about genetic diversity and, particularly, to breed for lower COIs without all the hassle and hard work of trawling through endless pedigree information."

Bet
31st May 2011, 07:26 PM
Just one point I would like to raise, that is it looks as if the pedigrees used by the Kennel Club are inclomplete, in so far as they only go back a certain number of generations; so at the moment any inference taken from the Mate Select Site will be false.

Until the Kennel Club rectify this, you could be helping to spread incorrect information, right across the board.

You may argue it's all relative, as it affects all pedigrees, but the COI's are still being calculated using insufficient information.

I think the Kennel Club have some work to do and until they get it right this tool has deep flaws.

Maybe you could incorporate something to that effect into your information?


MATE SELECT

Davecav ,you have to also remember, that the further you go back in a Cavaliers' Pedigree there are many instances of HIGH COI's.

May I be allowed to give some.


CH BYROSE GOLDEN HIND 35%

Ch CRISDIG MERRY MATELOT 35%

Ch CRISDIG BUTTONS 31%

Ch MILKEYN MASCOT 31%

Ch MILKEYN MATCHMAKER 31 %

Ch ALBERTO Of KINDRUM 21 %

Now he was born in 1986 ,Ch BARSAC TOUCH AND GO 23%..1983,Ch CHANTIZ THYME 21% ,1984,Ch CINOLA SUPER TRAMP OF DEERIEM 21% 1981

Those Names I have given ,it will be noted will be included in the MATE SELECT Information, were born in the 1980's ,so the Question has to be asked ,where have the other Cavaliers come from that have given the MATE SELECT the 5.2 Figure.

Have they come from Cavaliers Bred in Puppy Farms?

As I said in my Previous Post ,and I will repeat it again.

This information was given by a CKCS BREEDER who is a Member of the CKCS CLUB about a year and a half ago.

This information was taken from the Kennel Club's Cavalier Breed Supplement

OCTOBER-DECEMBER 2009

TOTAL NUMBER OF CAVALIER LITTERS REGISTERED 544

TOTAL NUMBER NUMBER OF CAVALIER LITTERS BRED BY CKCS CLUB MEMBERS 102 .....WHICH IS 18.75%

JANUARY - MARCH 2009

TOTAL NUMBER OF LITTERS REGISTERED 612.
TOTAL NUMBER OF LITTERS BRED BY CKCS CLUB MEMBERS 129 ... WHICH IS 21%

What this Information tells us is, that Many Many Cavaliers at that time in 2009 were Bred by Cavalier Breeders out-with the CKCS CLUB.

So for the CAVALIER COI to be as Low as 5.2, where have those Cavaliers been Bred ,did they have SM and MVD or not , this is what we should be trying to find out, if they have been Registered by Puppy Farmers etc, had no SM or MVD, the SHOW Breeders should take this on Board , and if a Different Type of Cavalier has to be being Bred but can be giving our Cavaliers the Chance of Healthier, Longer Lives ,but won't be Winning in the Show Ring .

THE SO BE IT !!!


Bet

Davecav
31st May 2011, 08:43 PM
Thank you Margaret, I found the link interesting.
I have tried out the Mate Select and I found it very easy to use, and as you say it is at least a tool that could help.
However I still feel a caveat should be added to it (sorry to be a pain) and also if it is used it should be used in conjunction with knowing the health status of the parents (and maybe even g.parents) of the potential puppy.

I still think that the clear health of parents and g.parents is more important than for example, a low COI, and only limited health info on parents.

What I'm trying to say is that some people may get frightened off by a higher COI from v.carefully bred and tested dogs over two, or even 3 generations, and plum for a dog that doesn't have as good ancestory of health tested forebears, just because it has a low COI. :)

added - To do a comparison, if I was to buy a car, and there was a Mate Select programme to give me the facts about that particular make/model, and the info was incomplete? and I bought a car (pup) because of this. OK more fool me, but it isn't giving the best information when it could be wrong.

sins
31st May 2011, 08:53 PM
CH BYROSE GOLDEN HIND 35% ........could not be found on mateselect

Ch CRISDIG MERRY MATELOT 35%.....insufficient pedigree information on mateselect.

Ch CRISDIG BUTTONS 31%..............insufficient pedigree information on mateselect.

Ch MILKEYN MASCOT 31%................15.4% on Mateselect.

Ch MILKEYN MATCHMAKER 31 %.......15.4% on Mateselect.

Ch ALBERTO Of KINDRUM 21 %..........9.3% on Mateselect.

Barsac Touch and Go, you say 23% Mateselect says 8.2%
Chantiz Thyme.........,you say 21%, Mateselect says 4.7%.
Homeranne Caption comes in at 0.8%.
Go back and check out Daywell Roger,any of the Pargeters?

Now please convince me why I should check mateselect and take any data it gives me into account if I plan to buy a puppy.
Mateselect says the breed average COI% is 5.2%...anyone want to bet their house on it being right????

I should add that the 5.2% figure may have been arrived at due to the omission of many old showlines rather than the inclusion of commercially bred dogs in recent times.

Sins

Bet
1st June 2011, 09:33 AM
CH BYROSE GOLDEN HIND 35% ........could not be found on mateselect

Ch CRISDIG MERRY MATELOT 35%.....insufficient pedigree information on mateselect.

Ch CRISDIG BUTTONS 31%..............insufficient pedigree information on mateselect.

Ch MILKEYN MASCOT 31%................15.4% on Mateselect.

Ch MILKEYN MATCHMAKER 31 %.......15.4% on Mateselect.

Ch ALBERTO Of KINDRUM 21 %..........9.3% on Mateselect.

Barsac Touch and Go, you say 23% Mateselect says 8.2%
Chantiz Thyme.........,you say 21%, Mateselect says 4.7%.
Homerbrent caption doesn't even exist on the database...
Go back and check out Daywell Roger,any of the Pargeters?

Now please convince me why I should check mateselect and take any data it gives me into account if I plan to buy a puppy.
Mateselect says the breed average COI% is 5.2%...anyone want to bet their house on it being right????

I should add that the 5.2% figure may have been arrived at due to the omission of many old showlines rather than the inclusion of commercially bred dogs in recent times.

Sins


MATE SELECT


SINS,


The information I gave was done by a Lady in America who I was doing Pedigrees for.

The COI Program she used was for I think 20 Generations,but I am not sure ,if you wan't to check on more of the COI Information ,go to the Heritage Page, CKCS CLUB.USA.

The Point I am trying to make is that some CKCS CLUB MEMBERS have said over and over again that there are so Many Cavaliers Registered not by UK CKCS CLUB MEMBERS, so when the COI for CAVALIERS IS 5.2 and it is the Minority of CKCS CLUB MEMBERS who have Registered Cavaliers , then is it not the Case that it is the 75 % of CKCS who were Registered in the Figures for 2009 from the BRS ,and I expect that will be the Total for other years, another Gentleman has worked out the Comparison between CKCS CLUB MEMBERS 'CAVALIERS REGISTERED and the OTHERS, has some-body got those Figures.

The KENNEL CLUB has explained that their MATE SELECT only goes back to 1980.I would think if any-body is interested enough, they will have to buy a COI Program that covers more Generations.

Does this really matter though, what has caught my eye and I am sure other Cavalier Folk will have noticed this as well ,I never bothered about the COI's of the Present Day Cavalier Show Dogs, but since Mate SELECT I have now, and if HIGH COI'S are causing Problems particularly to the OFF -SPRINGS of those SHOW CAVALIERS who are now having even Higher COI'S than their Parents. then is it not about time that this was being thought about.


Bet

sins
1st June 2011, 10:35 AM
In light of what I've just put to you - are you still certain the the breed average COI% is 5.2%.
There's a disproportionate amount of focus being put on an arbitrary figure,which may not accurately reflect the true picture of breed COI.
How confusing is this for people who just want a pet cavalier?
As if it's not bad enough needing heart and eye certs and being able to read MRI scans,we're now expected to consider genetic tests like DE/CC and EF.
and if that's not enough,we now have to find puppies from litters with just the "right amount" of genetic diversity,and perhaps a dose of puppy farmed stock chucked into the pedigree for good measure in order to reach a flawed %COI.:?.
Here's the thing,Even the most zealous health focused breeders want to improve their stock in terms of conformation.I've not yet met a breeder who doesn't want the next generation to make progress.
Also puppy buyers want their pets to look like cavaliers,especially if they're paying two weeks wages for one.
Most health focused breeders simply don't have enough puppies to sell to pet owners.Setting unrealistic expectations for buyers isn't fair.
The facts are, that you'll still be very lucky to buy a puppy from fully health tested parents,i.e. heart,eyes,scans with maybe two or three of the grandparents scanned.
Seriously,if you go to a breeder and start asking for %COIs on top of all the above,you'll either be laughed at or shown the door..
This elusive perfect cavalier simply doesn't exist.I wish it did.
Looking for the perfect cavalier is a bit like looking for the perfect man...eventually you'll just give up and settle for a husband:p.
Sins

Davecav
1st June 2011, 11:04 AM
Thank you Sins, you have said everything I've been thinking, and more.

Davecav
1st June 2011, 11:11 AM
Bet you have said:

"I never bothered about the COI's of the Present Day Cavalier Show Dogs, but since Mate SELECT I have now, and if HIGH COI'S are causing Problems particularly to the OFF -SPRINGS of those SHOW CAVALIERS who are now having even Higher COI'S than their Parents. then is it not about time that this was being thought about."

Bet - you've been banging on about inbreeding in cavaliers over and over again. What did you think inbred cavaliers were, if not cavaliers with high COI's?
You're first phrase sums it up.

Bet
1st June 2011, 11:34 AM
In light of what I've just put to you - are you still certain the the breed average COI% is 5.2%.
There's a disproportionate amount of focus being put on an arbitrary figure,which may not accurately reflect the true picture of breed COI.
How confusing is this for people who just want a pet cavalier?
As if it's not bad enough needing heart and eye certs and being able to read MRI scans,we're now expected to consider genetic tests like DE/CC and EF.
and if that's not enough,we now have to find puppies from litters with just the "right amount" of genetic diversity,and perhaps a dose of puppy farmed stock chucked into the pedigree for good measure in order to reach a flawed %COI.:?.
Here's the thing,Even the most zealous health focused breeders want to improve their stock in terms of conformation.I've not yet met a breeder who doesn't want the next generation to make progress.
Also puppy buyers want their pets to look like cavaliers,especially if they're paying two weeks wages for one.
Most health focused breeders simply don't have enough puppies to sell to pet owners.Setting unrealistic expectations for buyers isn't fair.
The facts are, that you'll still be very lucky to buy a puppy from fully health tested parents,i.e. heart,eyes,scans with maybe two or three of the grandparents scanned.
Seriously,if you go to a breeder and start asking for %COIs on top of all the above,you'll either be laughed at or shown the door..
This elusive perfect cavalier simply doesn't exist.I wish it did.
Looking for the perfect cavalier is a bit like looking for the perfect man...eventually you'll just give up and settle for a husband:p.
Sins


MATE SELECT


Sins, what Buyers of Cavaliers want is a Cavalier who has tha chance of Healthier ,Longer Lives than that they are getting at the Moment

Yes Cavalier Puppies cost an Arm and a Leg and the Buyers don't want to have to pay much more on Medication ,so I really do think that is their Prority .

You ask me if I am certain that the CKCS Breed average is 5.2, I am believing what the Experts are telling us, Neither you nor I have the Expertise to argue wih them.

What has shocked me with your Post, and it's not often I answer back, but when you say that it's bad enough for Cavalier Breeders having to do all the Tests that are involved with Breeding Cavaliers with-out having to do any-more.

All I can say to this Comment, is if it's Too Hot then Get out of The Kitichen ,and leave the Breeding of Cavaliers to the Cavalier Breeders who are Prepared to do do this to give our Cavalier Breed Hope for the Future.

Bet

sins
1st June 2011, 12:45 PM
Bet,
Noone knows more than I do what cavalier buyers want.
I've bought two in the last 18 months,the last one only 3 months ago.
You on the other hand have decided not to embrace cavalier ownership yourself, so don't actually have first hand experience of sourcing a puppy that recent buyers would.
Let me tell you...it's not an easy task!
Basically demand outstrips supply..
As for experts...even the experts are aware of the flaws in Mateselect as are the kennel Club themselves.
As for not being qualified to argue with experts...I feel scarely qualified to even search for a puppy again,let alone own a cavalier.Next time I look for a puppy,I'll attach a copy of my CV maybe with my enquiry.That should help!

you say that it's bad enough for Cavalier Breeders having to do all the Tests that are involved with Breeding Cavaliers with-out having to do any-more.

No Bet,I did not say that..
I'm simply pointing out the realities of what the puppy buyer will face.
I'm debating this issue from the point of a puppy buyer,not a breeder.
I AM saying,that it's not easy to find a cavalier puppy from fully health tested parents who has been bred from parents over the age of 2.5 years.
By applying the COI figure on Mateselect of 5.2% as a yardstick by which to discard litters from your search,you will be effectively eliminating the vast majority of puppies which may be offered to you from health tested parents.
Simples!
Sins

sins
1st June 2011, 02:40 PM
Bringing the thread back on topic.
From Mateselect:

The system actually calculates the COI of every dog on the registration database, it then draws information from this to calculate the average. At the moment the average quoted is that for all dogs born in 2010. This might not be ideal and we are still debating what might be the most meaningful way of calculating this average

Sins

Karlin
1st June 2011, 04:17 PM
Davecav, I'd agree that a first priority for a buyer really should be health tested parents and ideally, grandparents as well. COI would be a consideration -- I do know breeders who have long focused on having them as low as possible, always within single figures, so it has been a consideration for some.


The facts are, that you'll still be very lucky to buy a puppy from fully health tested parents,i.e. heart,eyes,scans with maybe two or three of the grandparents scanned.

Sins, I think this is what so many find really discouraging and, frankly, shocking -- that it should be so very difficult to find puppies from fully health tested parents, even after years and years of discussion. None of the tests except MRIs are terribly expensive (and most UK breeders have access to MRI scans costing as little as £100); some tests only ever need to be done once. If breeders had been doing basic health testing all along, they'd certainly have results on all grandparents and great grandparents and further back for everything except MRis -- the MVD protocol has been around going on two decades, which is many generations of cavaliers. :(

I can think of breeders who have all this info plus MRIs on current breeding stock and also have DNA Ids on their registrations... and the puppies do not cost any more than the average show breeder puppies. There's also a very strong argument that scanning the dogs older the 5 is going to give a breeder the most helpful picture of a line rather than scanning a one year old with plans to repeat at 2.5, or only ever having the one dog scanned at breeding age. There are plenty of funds now availble to UK breeders to scan their dogs older than 5!

The fact that more breeders (the vast majority, I would say) don't have this basic information by now as a norm, really makes one wonder what people have been doing for the past two decades :(... and also maybe explains why the current UK club committee is refusing to publicly commit to the club's own basic health testing recommendations...icon_nwunsure and underlines how important and symbolic for all breeders such a commitment to the breed's health and future would be.

Karlin
1st June 2011, 04:27 PM
A lot of those cavalier COIs from MateSelect do seem incredibly low on some dogs that have long been calculated to have a much higher COI based on the older sites that enabled such calculations or those who use breeding software to do such calculations.

Bet, Sins is not a breeder and is a very health focused cavalier owner who shows one of her dogs, so your comments -- of the type which I already have asked you before not to direct at board members, please -- are doubly inappropriate. Please keep your focus and remarks on the topic.

Bet
1st June 2011, 06:45 PM
A lot of those cavalier COIs from MateSelect do seem incredibly low on some dogs that have long been calculated to have a much higher COI based on the older sites that enabled such calculations or those who use breeding software to do such calculations.

Bet, Sins is not a breeder and is a very health focused cavalier owner who shows one of her dogs, so your comments -- of the type which I already have asked you before not to direct at board members, please -- are doubly inappropriate. Please keep your focus and remarks on the topic.


MATE SELECT.


May I finish this Spate with Sins with this Quote.

PLEASE LORD ,KEEP YOUR ARM AROUND MY SHOULDER and YOUR HAND OVER MY MOUTH.

Bet

RodRussell
2nd June 2011, 12:56 AM
In light of what I've just put to you - are you still certain the the breed average COI% is 5.2%.
There's a disproportionate amount of focus being put on an arbitrary figure,which may not accurately reflect the true picture of breed COI. ...

I think this average COI, for cavaliers at least, is a futile effort thus far. More work needs to be done and should have been done before it was introduced. MateSelect is not ready for prime time, or even the summer substitutes.

Bet
3rd June 2011, 09:46 AM
MATE SELECT.


May I finish this Spate with Sins with this Quote.

PLEASE LORD ,KEEP YOUR ARM AROUND MY SHOULDER and YOUR HAND OVER MY MOUTH.

Bet


MATE SELECT


KARLIN,


YOU will maybe know I have been Challenged on another CKCS Forum ,but I have asked the LORD TO KEEP HIS HAND OVER MY MOUTH ,so I won't be replying , I was asked if I had the Pluck to Reply , the only thing I have chickened out ,because I have Breast Cancer , and Radio- Therapy ,Iv'e got to the stage I'm having no more Mammogram Tests , if any-thing is found my old Body could'nt take any more Operations, I would love to Reply ,but I am sure your Hand is over my Mouth as Well!!!!!

Hope it's OK using the List in This way.

Bet

Bet
5th June 2011, 11:00 AM
MATE SELECT


KARLIN,


YOU will maybe know I have been Challenged on another CKCS Forum ,but I have asked the LORD TO KEEP HIS HAND OVER MY MOUTH ,so I won't be replying , I was asked if I had the Pluck to Reply , the only thing I have chickened out ,because I have Breast Cancer , and Radio- Therapy ,Iv'e got to the stage I'm having no more Mammogram Tests , if any-thing is found my old Body could'nt take any more Operations, I would love to Reply ,but I am sure your Hand is over my Mouth as Well!!!!!

Hope it's OK using the List in This way.

Bet


MATE SELECT


COULD I please return to the Subject of COI'S,I have been doing a bit of checking up on the COI's from the Recent Cavalier Breed Supplement published by the Kennel Club .

I worked out the the COI of the Parents and then the COI of the Off-Springs .

Here is one that caught my eye ,the Parents are Show Cavaliers

The Sire 11.9%

Dam 8.7%

Yet the Off-Springs were 15.6%

There were a few Parents at 4.3%, and the Off- Springs were over 9% .

Others for the Sire around 6.7%

Dam around 7.3%

The Off-Springs results were around 12.%

There does seem to be Many Show Cavaliers around the 12% ,some 14% and a Few 16-20% COI.s

Because the Cavalier Breed COI Average is 5.2 , and in 2009 in a check done by a Cavalier Breeder for 6 months with the Results from the Breed Cavalier Supplement, about 80 % of Cavaliers Redistered were Bred by Cavalier Breeders who were not Breeders in the CKCS CLUB.

Professor D. Balding,Institute of Genetics ,University of London, also has E-Mailed me mentioning that the Information available to the Scientists and Geneticists are from the Kennel Club's Electronic Records which only go back to around 1980.

Bet
5th June 2011, 12:00 PM
MATE SELECT


COULD I please return to the Subject of COI'S,I have been doing a bit of checking up on the COI's from the Recent Cavalier Breed Supplement published by the Kennel Club .

I worked out the the COI of the Parents and then the COI of the Off-Springs .

Here is one that caught my eye ,the Parents are Show Cavaliers

The Sire 11.9%

Dam 8.7%

Yet the Off-Springs were 15.6%

There were a few Parents at 4.3%, and the Off- Springs were over 9% .

Others for the Sire around 6.7%

Dam around 7.3%

The Off-Springs results were around 12.%

There does seem to be Many Show Cavaliers around the 12% ,some 14% and a Few 16-20% COI.s

Because the Cavalier Breed COI Average is 5.2 , and in 2009 in a check done by a Cavalier Breeder for 6 months with the Results from the Breed Cavalier Supplement, about 80 % of Cavaliers Redistered were Bred by Cavalier Breeders who were not Breeders in the CKCS CLUB.

Professor D. Balding,Institute of Genetics ,University of London, also has E-Mailed me mentioning that the Information available to the Scientists and Geneticists are from the Kennel Club's Electronic Records which only go back to around 1980.


MATE SELECT

Could I add a further comment to my Previous Post.

The Kennel Club has mentioned in it's MATE SELECT -FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS,that the MATE SELECT Information is also for Puppy Buyers.

This In-Breedinging COI Calculator has been carried out by Drs S. Blott and T.Lewis, at the Genetic's Centre at The AHT,the In-Breeding COI'S are calculated from the Kennel Club's Data Base from 1980 for KC Registered Dogs.

As I have Explained, Professor D. Balding and Dr.T Lewis have both said that this is the only Information available to Scientists and Geneticists.

Now according the Kennel Club both Dog Breeders and Puppy Buyers can look at the MATE SELECT Information and decide as to whether the Dog Mating is sensible or not.

This so Important for and I will mention the Buyer of a Cavalier,that they are Buying from a Cavalier Breeder who has made a Responsible Decision, it now enables a Puppy Buyer armed with all of the Information that they need,it will now be Puppy Buyers who are creating a Demand for Healthy Puppies from Responsible Breeders that will drive Unscrupous Breeders out of Business.

These are not my Words ,but those of the Kennel Club .

If any-one disagrees with them I would suggest that they contact

thekennelclub.org.uk

Bet

Davecav
5th June 2011, 12:18 PM
:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused: :confused::confused::confused:


Bet

Which words exactly are the words of the Kennel Club?

Most of the words I have just read appear to be yours, with a few names dropped in.

You have just re-hashed what has already been said far more eloquantly by others earlier in this thread, and turned into muddled confusion.

I'll now wait for the wrath of the powers that be to come down on me like a ton of bricks,:eek: but it has had to be said!:eek:

penquite
5th June 2011, 01:15 PM
MATE SELECT



Here is one that caught my eye ,the Parents are Show Cavaliers

The Sire 11.9%

Dam 8.7%

Yet the Off-Springs were 15.6%

There were a few Parents at 4.3%, and the Off- Springs were over 9% .

Others for the Sire around 6.7%

Dam around 7.3%

The Off-Springs results were around 12.%

.


Bet
It sounds as if you are questioning the figures. If it helps, send me the names privately, I will try to explain, privately, why the offspring have a higher COI than the parents.
All the best
Sue

Bet
5th June 2011, 05:58 PM
:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused: :confused::confused::confused:


Bet

Which words exactly are the words of the Kennel Club?

Most of the words I have just read appear to be yours, with a few names dropped in.

You have just re-hashed what has already been said far more eloquantly by others earlier in this thread, and turned into muddled confusion.

I'll now wait for the wrath of the powers that be to come down on me like a ton of bricks,:eek: but it has had to be said!:eek:


MATE SELECT


Davecav


Most of what I said in my Post I Quoted from the Frequently Asked Questions in the Kennel Club's Mate Select Information.

I did add about Information I had been given by Professor D Balding, the only Liberty I took was Substituting the word Cavalier for the buyer of a Dog.

Bet
8th June 2011, 10:21 AM
MATE SELECT


Davecav


Most of what I said in my Post I Quoted from the Frequently Asked Questions in the Kennel Club's Mate Select Information.

I did add about Information I had been given by Professor D Balding, the only Liberty I took was Substituting the word Cavalier for the buyer of a Dog.


MATE SELECT


Could I return to the MATE SELECT Thread, I have found a Cavalier Puppy just registered with an COI of 33.7 %.

I had thought those days in the Breeding of Cavaliers were Long Gone!!!! with COI's like this !!!

No Not from a Puppy Farm !

Bet

Bet
11th June 2011, 09:54 AM
MATE SELECT


Could I return to the MATE SELECT Thread, I have found a Cavalier Puppy just registered with an COI of 33.7 %.

I had thought those days in the Breeding of Cavaliers were Long Gone!!!! with COI's like this !!!

No Not from a Puppy Farm !

Bet


MATE SELECT


I just wondered if this further information I have received about MATE SELECT would be of a wee bit of interest to some of you.This was a Question I asked about our Cavaliers and MATE SELECT

I am quoting .

Another way of looking at COI is as a Quantification of the Relatedness between an Animal's Parents.

So,Individual Parent's COI will have no bearing on the Off-Spring's COI .For example ,think of Full Sibs from Unrelated Parents .

Parents will have both COI=0 ,however the Progeny of the Full Sib Mating will have a COI of 25% .

Similarly Two Highly Inbred Animals may have Progeny with Zero COI ( an Out Cross for Example. )

I don't know , but is this all the Reason for the Mating of Cavalier Parents to be as far away as possible ,not Related in any way.as Professor Sir P. Bateson said in his Report, that even the Mating of Grand -Father to Grand -Daughter and Grand- Mother to Grand-Son is too Close.

Bet