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Karlin
21st June 2011, 02:15 PM
Newly published paper from a research team including Penny Knowler and Dr Clare Rusbridge.

Truly shocking figures -- in cavaliers with no symptoms, scans found SM already present in a FOURTH of all dogs by age 1 and 70% in dogs over 6.

This means overall incidence in the breed is far higher than 70%, as this doesn't even include symptomatic dogs.

How can any remaining doubting breeder now argue that this is not a widespread and serious problem and the chance that the still-heard claim that it 'isn't in my lines' might even remotely be true is virtually nil if such a high rate of dogs with NO symptoms scan with SM. :( The only good news is that if such a large percentage had no symptoms still at age 6 -- then clearly there are dogs less inclined to develop serious pain with this condition -- again, this is exactly why breeders need to scan their older dogs, not just the dogs coming to breeding age.

There is plenty of cash in Rupert's Fund (http://www.rupertsfund.com) right now for breeders to use towards such scans.

Abstract:


Prevalence of asymptomatic syringomyelia in Cavalier King Charles spaniels
J. E. Parker, S. P. Knowler, C. Rusbridge, E. Noorman, N. D. Jeffery

The prevalence of syringomyelia was investigated in a sample population of 555 Cavalier King Charles spaniels. All dogs, which were declared by their owners to be showing no clinical signs of syringomyelia, underwent MRI to determine the presence or absence of the condition. Data were analysed by logistic regression to determine the effects of sex and age on the prevalence of syringomyelia. Only increased age was found to have a significant effect. The prevalence of syringomyelia was 25 per cent in dogs aged 12 months, increasing to a peak of 70 per cent in dogs aged 72 months or more.

Published in the Veterinary Record.

Margaret C
21st June 2011, 03:46 PM
Newly published paper from a research team including Penny Knowler and Dr Clare Rusbridge.

Truly shocking figures -- in cavaliers with no symptoms, scans found SM already present in a FOURTH of all dogs by age 1 and 70% in dogs over 6.

This means overall incidence in the breed is far higher than 70%, as this doesn't even include symptomatic dogs.

How can any remaining doubting breeder now argue that this is not a widespread and serious problem


This also reinforces the need for puppy buyers to check that parent cavaliers are over 2.5 years old when health tested and to check the health certificates for themselves.

Remember that there can be no guarantees when buying a puppy but the best chance of avoiding early onset SM is by buying a cavalier with two grade A parents.

Karlin
21st June 2011, 04:04 PM
Definitely, especially as asymptomatic dogs are known to produce symptomatic dogs. :(

Karlin
21st June 2011, 05:46 PM
Link: http://veterinaryrecord.bmj.com/content/early/2011/06/12/vr.d1726.abstract

RodRussell
21st June 2011, 05:52 PM
The article points out a couple of bits of information as caveats to the reliability of the study:

"First, the confidence limits for the OR [odds ratios] in the oldest group of animals were wide (because of the relatively small number of animals included within this group) and therefore must be considered less reliable. Secondly, although specifically excluded in terms of the present study, it is possible that the breeders may have included their dogs for the screening procedure while knowing that they expressed clinical signs of syringomyelia."

Nevertheless, the conclusions to be drawn are powerful.

First, the development of SM is progressive, and a SM-clear 12 month old could just be on the verge of a syrinx. Therefore, the older the dog at its first breeding, the better, and the closer that clear MRI to the breeding, the better.

Second, if these dogs really were symptom-less, then these percentages are just a drop in the bucket, and the overall percentage is well over 70% of dogs at 6+ years.

Bet
21st June 2011, 06:37 PM
The article points out a couple of bits of information as caveats to the reliability of the study:

"First, the confidence limits for the OR [odds ratios] in the oldest group of animals were wide (because of the relatively small number of animals included within this group) and therefore must be considered less reliable. Secondly, although specifically excluded in terms of the present study, it is possible that the breeders may have included their dogs for the screening procedure while knowing that they expressed clinical signs of syringomyelia."

Nevertheless, the conclusions to be drawn are powerful.

First, the development of SM is progressive, and a SM-clear 12 month old could just be on the verge of a syrinx. Therefore, the older the dog at its first breeding, the better, and the closer that clear MRI to the breeding, the better.

Second, if these dogs really were symptom-less, then these percentages are just a drop in the bucket, and the overall percentage is well over 70% of dogs at 6+ years.


STUDY OF SM in 555 ASYMPTOMATIC CKCS :70% AFFECTED BY AGE 6



If there are according to Cavalier Registrations 90,000 Living at Ten Years of age here in Britain , 70 % at 6 that is Approx 63,000 Cavaliers .

Then there is the figure of around 90% of Cavaliers suffering from CM which is Chacterized with Brains Too Big for the Skulls.

No-Body can argue with the Results from this Veterinary Paper ,since it would be PEER REVIEWED

Bet

anniemac
21st June 2011, 07:23 PM
From reading Dr. Rusbridge blog http://clarerusbridge-news.blogspot.com/search/label/CMSM%20Genome%20Research.

Karlin, it looks to me like in the Netherlands almost doubled the amount of Cavaliers WITHOUT SM. Am I looking at it right? It say "Below is a graph showing a group of 380 CKCS which were screened for SM comparing the Netherlands to other countries in the world. The interim (http://www.veterinary-neurologist.co.uk/syringomyelia/docs/breedguide.pdf)breeding guidelines (http://www.veterinary-neurologist.co.uk/syringomyelia/docs/breedguide.pdf)were introduced in 2006 in the UK but breeders in Netherlands have been using them informally since 2004" So if I am looking at it right, something they are doing there (following protocols) has made a difference??? This is quite facinating since there is a large number of Cavaliers without symptoms.

RodRussell
21st June 2011, 07:43 PM
... So if I am looking at it right, something they are doing there (following protocols) has made a difference??? ...

That's what it looks like.

Nicki
21st June 2011, 09:14 PM
Truly devastating news :(

Even with the caveats the odds are overwhelming - and there must be so many Cavaliers out their whose guardians do not recognise the symptoms still [or deliberately overlook them :mad:] - too many suffering dogs.

Brian M
21st June 2011, 09:55 PM
Hi

A phrase is stuck in my head " suffer little chidren " they are our children and what have they done to deserve this .I am so sorry for our breed
but I fell so mad when I hear people proclaiming

If 'those people' would just let breeders concentrate on the job in hand, instead of us having to constantly defend what we do, or don't do with the knowledge we have collated from breeding, showing with success, and judging on a regular basis for between 30 & 40 years


Is this what we are left with after these self proclaimed successful people of 30 and 40 years have fininished meddling with the breed, a total mess ,god help us and
our Cavaliers.I can think of many people throughtout history who had this sort of self proclaimed ideology but I shall not put into print the ones I am thinking of .
Ths news though expected is a crushing blow to all true Cavalier owners and essentially the many pet owners all around the globe .Legislation please ASAP
to control these horrid people who breed with no thought for health,happiness and welfare nor the fuure only the attraction of those self glorifying CC and
damn them too .

Margaret C
21st June 2011, 11:56 PM
In September 2003 this leaflet below was sent out to all Cavalier Club Members. I was the Health Representative and I wrote it..............

I often wonder whether the problem could have been contained if breeders had been honest about their affected dogs and proactive in using the low cost scanning schemes when they started in 2004.



IMPORTANT PLEASE READ


There is a rapidly emerging awareness of an inherited condition in our Cavaliers.

Veterinary neurologist, Clare Rusbridge, and her team are conducting research into this condition and have found that 13 out of the 24 top stud dogs since 1998 have sired affected progeny. It is found in all colours, in all lines, and affects both sexes. While it remains unacknowledged it will continue to spread. This condition is called syringomyelia. This occurs when a Cavalier is born with not enough room in the space in the skull that contains the back of the brain. Damage is caused when fluid surrounding the brain is forced into the spinal cord.

The most common symptom is scratching on, or in the air near the shoulder when the dog is excited or walking on a lead. However this is not the only symptom and it is not always present. Affected dogs and bitches can be sensitive around the head, neck and front legs and often cry, yelp or scream for no apparent reason. They can develop a permanently twisted neck or have a wobbling gait in the hind legs and/or weakness in their front legs.
In severely affected cases the dog can suffer so badly that euthanasia becomes the only option.
Signs are usually noticed in dogs between 6 months and 3 years but it has been diagnosed in Cavaliers up to 10 years old.
At present the condition can only be identified by MRI scan or by clinical signs. There is not a test to identify carriers.

Studies of pedigrees suggest that Syringomyelia is caused by two genes that have to be carried by both parents for an affected dog to be born. Although dogs displaying signs of the problem were seen in the past, it is thought that the two genes came together in a significant way when descendants of two bitches, born in the 1950s, were mated together in the late 1970s.

Continual line breeding to the popular stud dogs of this era has increased the number of Cavaliers carrying both genes throughout the breed, and this includes many of the top stud dogs and brood bitches. It is these dogs whose genes dominate the pedigrees of the Cavaliers in our kennels, our homes and on our laps. No one is to blame because no one had the knowledge to identify the isolated cases as an inherited condition.

Information about individual dogs and bitches given to the Veterinary research team is confidential. Names have not and will not be passed on to anybody in the Cavalier Club or elsewhere

The problem is now widespread. There will be clear and carrier dogs and bitches in every line. Some breeders and stud dog owners may believe it is not their problem. In some cases they may not be aware that their dog or bitch has produced an affected Cavalier, and this is dangerous for the good of the breed. Owners are now being encouraged to inform the breeder if their Cavalier has a positive diagnosis. This problem, like MVD, is affecting us all.

It is what we do now that is so important. The researchers believe that it may be possible to develop a DNA test which will identify which Cavaliers are carriers of syringomyelia & which are clear.

DNA from extended families of dogs can be collected by blood sampling or, in some cases, cheek swab. Blood samples will be required from both clear and affected dogs and bitches. All donor dogs will be identified only by a code. It is hoped that it may also be possible to eventually produce a DNA for MVD from the same blood samples
The Cavalier Club hopes that any breeder asked to provide blood samples will co-operate with this vital research.

The search for a DNA test will take some time. The veterinary research team has provided what breeding advice they can (see below) At the moment we have no way of knowing whether our Cavaliers are clear or carriers unless they have already produced affected offspring.
This problem could continue to spread until there are very few clear dogs and bitches from which to breed. To act now to develop a DNA test will not only prevent pain & suffering, but will also make good commercial sense.

All dogs enjoy a good scratch. This may be because of a flea bite, ear mites or a skin condition. We must all resist the temptation of making ringside diagnosis.
Honest and frank discussion is what is needed if breeders and owners are to pull together to find a solution to this problem.
It is serious and it threatens all our Cavaliers.

Current Breeding Advice
Until we have a way of testing for the culprit recessive genes, this is what we recommend.
.
Affected Case
Identified by MRI (confirmed) or suspected on basis of clinical signs (scratching at shoulder area when walking on leash or when excited) Not to be used for breeding, stop breeding from affected cases now.

Unaffected known carrier (sire/dam and all offspring of an affected case) will have both genes. If mated with same will produce affected offspring. Use very sparingly. Mate only to unrelated dogs who have had no extended family history of syringomyelia. Keep other Breeders informed.

Unaffected dog (it is possible that all Cavaliers will be carriers of one or more recessive genes) Do not mate with closely related dogs. Keep track of all offspring The time of onset of symptoms varies greatly, from weeks to many years. If you breed an affected dog tell any other breeder involved.

For more detail please see the articles by Clare Rusbridge and Penny Knowler on the Club website: www.thecavalierclub.co.uk (http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/) , the Club Magazine or send SAE to:
Mrs M Carter, 47, The Ryde, Hatfield, Herts. AL9 5DQ.


Information about dogs displaying symptoms of syringomyelia, especially those born prior to 1990, is still needed by the research team. Please contact: -
Clare Rusbridge BVMS DipECVN MRCVS
Stone Lion Veterinary Centre
41 High Street, Wimbledon, London, SW19 5AU
Tel. 0208 946 4228
Email: neuro.vet@btinternet.com

Blondiemonster
22nd June 2011, 12:51 AM
Truly devastating. I want to throw one little thing out there " asymptomatic as declares by their owners". Does that mean their was no exam by neurorligst to determine if they were truly asymptomatic? As karlin has often pointed out: often an owner doesnt really know when their dog has symptoms because they dont recognize it or dont want to acknowledge ..

Davecav
22nd June 2011, 09:07 AM
Margaret, I found your letter from 2003 very clear and informative for me. you say in it:"it is thought that the two genes came together in a significant way when descendants of two bitches, born in the 1950s, were mated together in the late 1970s. "and - "Information about individual dogs and bitches given to the Veterinary research team is confidential" -which I do understand, But would it not have been really productive to make breeders aware of the two bitches that were thought to be the fore-runners for this condition? so that breeders could begin to breed away from these, as much as possible? In some instances can't confidentiality take a back seat, for the sake of minimising the spread of an inheritied condition? Also are blood tests still being done in the Uk to find the DNA?

Bet
22nd June 2011, 09:48 AM
Margaret, I found your letter from 2003 very clear and informative for me. you say in it:"it is thought that the two genes came together in a significant way when descendants of two bitches, born in the 1950s, were mated together in the late 1970s. "and - "Information about individual dogs and bitches given to the Veterinary research team is confidential" -which I do understand, But would it not have been really productive to make breeders aware of the two bitches that were thought to be the fore-runners for this condition? so that breeders could begin to breed away from these, as much as possible? In some instances can't confidentiality take a back seat, for the sake of minimising the spread of an inheritied condition? Also are blood tests still being done in the Uk to find the DNA?



STUDY OF SM IN 555 ASYMPTOMATIC : CKCS 70% AFFECTED BY AGE 6.

Davecav


I am thinking how to answer you, I was involved with the Research into the SM Cavalier Pedigrees from the 1950's but it would not be as easy as you think to Breed away from the SM Problem.

There are now with the Figures just been given be many SM Carriers Around, just think about this , 70% at 6 Affected by SM, but even more Frightening is the Figure of about 90% of Cavaliers with CM, which because of the Brains too Big for the Skulls ,this condition hinders the CEREBRO SPINAL FLUID flowing and can cause SYRINXES to Form and this leads to SM.

We just cannot kid ourselves any-longer ,is there a Future for our Cavaliers because of the amount of SM and CM Carriers that are around now.

This is what being a Carrier Means,even although those Cavaliers who are not Afflicted with CM and SM, being a Carrier can when Mated to another CM or SM Carrier ,the Off- Springs have a good chance of having CM or SM.

There has to be Fresh Genes brought into the Cavalier Breed from some-where ,or it is not going to Survive.

Brian ,what a Excellent Post you Wrote about what has happened to our Cavaliers because of some Cavalier Breeders in Denial about the Cavalier Health Problems ,look no further than the CAVALIER MVD Problem ,and now the CM and SM looks as if it will be worse.


Bet

tuppenlil
22nd June 2011, 10:07 AM
Newly published paper from a research team including Penny Knowler and Dr Clare Rusbridge.

Truly shocking figures -- in cavaliers with no symptoms, scans found SM already present in a FOURTH of all dogs by age 1 and 70% in dogs over 6.

This means overall incidence in the breed is far higher than 70%, as this doesn't even include symptomatic dogs.


What happens to all those young dogs that are diagnosed with a syrinx ?

Do they end up in an unsuspecting pet market ?

Or are the results disregarded and the dogs bred anyway ?

Is that one of the reasons there is such a reluctance to publish scan results ?

Maggie

Margaret C
22nd June 2011, 10:58 AM
What happens to all those young dogs that are diagnosed with a syrinx ?

Do they end up in an unsuspecting pet market ?

Or are the results disregarded and the dogs bred anyway ?

Is that one of the reasons there is such a reluctance to publish scan results ?

Maggie

If a promising show prospect the unscrupulous breeder will use them for showing and breeding and then sell them abroad, while still asymptomatic, on the strength of their show wins.

Otherwise they are sold or given away, sometimes with no disclosure of diagnosis, sometimes with the new owners informed, although I suspect a rather optimistic view of the progress of the condition will be given.

Some are put into rescue.

You are right Maggie, at the moment no one can check to see if any cavalier being offered for sale or rehoming has been MRI'd. The new scheme will change that and make breeders more accountable.

At the moment pet owners buying or rehoming young adult cavaliers should be really careful.
I know many people that have realised that their new pet had mild SM symptoms from the day they first took it home.

Brian M
22nd June 2011, 11:46 AM
Hi

As a pet owner only ,where do we go who do we trust now ,the picture is so very bleak .:( My first little one Poppy I found through the K.C. AB scheme and the same with Rosie then being a bit more aware and wanting what I hope and still do was a quality Cavalier we got our Daisy a Loranka .Then when we decided on a B & T and we knew we needed to see certs and find a little one with A grade parents so we searched UK wide and couldnt find any, then I asked Margaret's help and found an 11 month old B & T in Glasgow who is an Ailcres and she became our Lily ,but thinking now are their chances of developing SM all the same ? Rosie has already been MRI scanned and we know is asymptomatic CM and I presume she could develop SM as all of them might. Are puppies bought through the KC scheme any worse or better than a puppy from a show breeder ?,it would
be a hard task to try and find a puupy now I would be so confused ,would I go through the same procedure :(.

Karlin
22nd June 2011, 12:31 PM
I want to throw one little thing out there " asymptomatic as declares by their owners". Does that mean their was no exam by neurorligst to determine if they were truly asymptomatic? As karlin has often pointed out: often an owner doesnt really know when their dog has symptoms because they dont recognize it or dont want to acknowledge ..

A good point. Almost certainly a number of these would be considered symptomatic if examined by a neurologist, but it doesn't really alter the shocking level of affectedness if some small subset had some mild symptoms.

Perhaps more relevant is that many, probably most of these dogs in the sample were scanned for breeding programmes and belong to breeders so the failure to see symptoms in this case would demonstrate that many who say there are no signs of SM in their lines, but also do not scan, are truly 'in the dark' and damaging the breed through willful ignorance.

The proper way to find a breeder remains the advice we offer here in the extensive links on finding a breeder. Look for one who scans, talk through the certs or results and other tests. A puppy is and always has been a 'buyer beware' purchase and a responsible pet buyer will screen breeders carefully.

Margaret C
22nd June 2011, 02:01 PM
But would it not have been really productive to make breeders aware of the two bitches that were thought to be the fore-runners for this condition? ? so that breeders could begin to breed away from these, as much as possible?

Who can say if breeders would have changed their breeding programmes with that knowledge.
As some of the most influential breeders continued to use a known MRI confirmed SM affected dog because he produced lovely puppies, I rather doubt if long dead ancestors would have been seen to have any significance.



Also are blood tests still being done in the Uk to find the DNA?

Things have moved on a great deal & DNA is now usually collected by mouth swab.

The most important source of DNA & RNA ( don't ask, just look it up ) for the genome research are probably the tissue samples taken at post-mortem. This is why the cavaliers volunteered to the Cavalier Collection Scheme are contributing so much to the future of this breed.

Davecav
22nd June 2011, 07:22 PM
Originally Posted by Davecavhttp://www.cavaliertalk.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.cavaliertalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=394116#post394116) But would it not have been really productive to make breeders aware of the two bitches that were thought to be the fore-runners for this condition? ? so that breeders could begin to breed away from these, as much as possible?

Answer
Who can say if breeders would have changed their breeding programmes with that knowledge.
As some of the most influential breeders continued to use a known MRI confirmed SM affected dog because he produced lovely puppies, I rather doubt if long dead ancestors would have been seen to have any significance.
Margaret


Well it's a shame if that's the case; but there must have been some health conscious breeders who wanted to breed away from the condition in 2003 when you wrote the leaflet. It appears to be a missed opportunity that this information wasn't disclosed at the time.

Maybe as you say, no-one would have cared to bother with it, but now nearly 10 years later Cavaliers are in even more need of helpful information being forthcoming.

.:(

Did anyone know the names of these bitches? (well someone must have!)

Margaret C
22nd June 2011, 07:39 PM
Cavaliers are in even more need of helpful information being forthcoming.



It is known that following both sets of breeding guidelines would reduce SM and MVD.
50% of KC registered cavaliers, from club members and non-club members alike, have at least one parent that is under 2.5 years of age.

It is not more helpful information that is needed, there is plenty of that being ignored already. What is really needed is breeders that care more for their cavaliers than their own interests.

mollycavi
22nd June 2011, 08:17 PM
Originally Posted by Davecavhttp://www.cavaliertalk.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.cavaliertalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=394116#post394116) But would it not have been really productive to make breeders aware of the two bitches that were thought to be the fore-runners for this condition? ? so that breeders could begin to breed away from these, as much as possible?

Answer
Who can say if breeders would have changed their breeding programmes with that knowledge.
As some of the most influential breeders continued to use a known MRI confirmed SM affected dog because he produced lovely puppies, I rather doubt if long dead ancestors would have been seen to have any significance.
Margaret


Well it's a shame if that's the case; but there must have been some health conscious breeders who wanted to breed away from the condition in 2003 when you wrote the leaflet. It appears to be a missed opportunity that this information wasn't disclosed at the time.

Maybe as you say, no-one would have cared to bother with it, but now nearly 10 years later Cavaliers are in even more need of helpful information being forthcoming.

.:(

Did anyone know the names of these bitches? (well someone must have!)

Davecav

Having this information is totally useless for two reasons. There are no pedigrees that I am aware of post 1980's that do not contain these two bitches, and secondly, they themselves had ancestors who carried the genes , who had multiple offspring that went in several directions, and their genes are widely distributed in the gene .pool. These two bitches were used for illustration purposes on Claire's thesis.

Mollycavi

Pat
22nd June 2011, 08:19 PM
Did anyone know the names of these bitches? (well someone must have!)

I believe that many long-time breeders did know the names. I say that because a close friend of mine in the US who was a long-time breeder phoned me to discuss this at the time because one of these bitches was an ancestor of one of her foundation dogs. She was quite concerned, and we talked for a long time about the emerging information about SM.

Pat

Pat
22nd June 2011, 08:26 PM
Davecav

Having this information is totally useless for two reasons. There are no pedigrees that I am aware of post 1980's that do not contain these two bitches, and secondly, they themselves had ancestors who carried the genes , who had multiple offspring that went in several directions, and their genes are widely distributed in the gene .pool. These two bitches were used for illustration purposes on Claire's thesis.

Mollycavi

From my general understanding, I believe this is correct. It is a lot more complex than just "avoiding" these two bitches.

Pat

RodRussell
22nd June 2011, 08:35 PM
...

It is not more helpful information that is needed, there is plenty of that being ignored already. What is really needed is breeders that care more for their cavaliers than their own interests.

...



bingo!

sunshinekisses
22nd June 2011, 09:59 PM
sad...the truth is still many breeders continue to breed well before any health screening can take place. I have asked a few breeders about this and all say they know their lines are free from these problems. I wonder why would a male dog need bred before the age of 1 year and a female at age 15 months? I am not talking puppymills, this is show breeders that should know better. :(
I have to agree that publishing names would make no difference to some breeders...as they claim to know what they are doing.

Bet
23rd June 2011, 09:57 AM
Originally Posted by Davecavhttp://www.cavaliertalk.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.cavaliertalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=394116#post394116) But would it not have been really productive to make breeders aware of the two bitches that were thought to be the fore-runners for this condition? ? so that breeders could begin to breed away from these, as much as possible?

Answer
Who can say if breeders would have changed their breeding programmes with that knowledge.
As some of the most influential breeders continued to use a known MRI confirmed SM affected dog because he produced lovely puppies, I rather doubt if long dead ancestors would have been seen to have any significance.
Margaret


Well it's a shame if that's the case; but there must have been some health conscious breeders who wanted to breed away from the condition in 2003 when you wrote the leaflet. It appears to be a missed opportunity that this information wasn't disclosed at the time.

Maybe as you say, no-one would have cared to bother with it, but now nearly 10 years later Cavaliers are in even more need of helpful information being forthcoming.










.:(

Did anyone know the names of these bitches? (well someone must have!)


STUDY OF SM IN 555 ASYMAPATOMATIC CKCS :70% AFFECTED BY AGE 6.

Davecav ,

What is the use , please ,please tell me if you are given the names of those Two Cavalier Bitches ,what good does that do now.

The Information is in the Figures 70% of Cavaliers have SM at 6.

Around 90% have CM where the Condition is Chacterized with Brains too Big for the Skulls, this stops the CEREBRO SPINAL FLUID FLOWING and causes Syrinxes to Form ,then SM.

The most Disasterous News for The Cavalier Breed was when in the FOETAL TISSUE RESEARCH it was found that 85 of the Whelps ALL ,YES ALL the WHELPS had CM.

The CM and SM Problem is every-where in the Cavalier Breed ,if you are given those Bitches names what are you going to with the Information.

I would sure be interested to know.

Bet

Davecav
23rd June 2011, 10:27 AM
BetMollycavi has already answered my query succinctly, and fully explained why this didn't happen. (thank you Molly)However, If you really bother to read my post properly instead of jumping constantly to conclusions and repeating the same boring ld information ad-infinitum whatever the question, ...........what I asked was: Would it not have been useful to give breeders the information - All those years ago!!!!Just to make it perfectly clear once more . MY QUESTION HAS NOW BEEN ANSWERED TO MY COMPLETE SATISFACTION. At no point was I asking for the names of the bitches to be made public now!!!

Davecav
23rd June 2011, 10:36 AM
BetMollycavi has already answered my query succinctly, and fully explained why this didn't happen. (thank you Molly).......However, If you really bother to read my post properly instead of jumping constantly to conclusions and repeating the same boring information ad-infinitum whatever the question, ...........what I asked was: Would it not have been useful to give breeders the information - All those years ago!!!!Just to make it perfectly clear once more . ........ MY QUESTION HAS NOW BEEN ANSWERED TO MY COMPLETE SATISFACTION. At no point was I asking for the names of the bitches to be made public now!!!I'm sorry my reply is set out in such a poor format. For some reason; though I have written my reply in paragraphs, etc, it has lumped everything together and the system won't let me edit it!

Bet
23rd June 2011, 12:01 PM
BetMollycavi has already answered my query succinctly, and fully explained why this didn't happen. (thank you Molly)However, If you really bother to read my post properly instead of jumping constantly to conclusions and repeating the same boring ld information ad-infinitum whatever the question, ...........what I asked was: Would it not have been useful to give breeders the information - All those years ago!!!!Just to make it perfectly clear once more . MY QUESTION HAS NOW BEEN ANSWERED TO MY COMPLETE SATISFACTION. At no point was I asking for the names of the bitches to be made public now!!!


STUDY OF SM IN 555 ASYMPATOMATIC CKCS : 70 % AFFECTED BY AGE 6

Davecav.

It's great that you now realize why the names of those Two Cavaliers could not have been Divulged.

When I was helping at the beginning with the SM Cavalier Pedigree Research I even had PM's from Cavalier Breeders world wanting to know the Names of the Two Cavaliers from the 1950's .



Bet

RodRussell
23rd June 2011, 07:10 PM
... I wonder why would a male dog need bred before the age of 1 year and a female at age 15 months? I am not talking puppymills, this is show breeders that should know better. :( ...

I have one answer to the female part of that question. I had a conversation with a very successful (in the conformation ring) CKCS breeder, who since became president of the CKCSC,USA, and he said that he would not wait to breed a bitch because the first litter helps to spring her ribcage.

Pat
23rd June 2011, 08:13 PM
And as for breeding a male before or near age one, there are several reasons for that also - breeders like to "prove" a male at a young age - is he potent? Does he produce "better than he is"? Often a young dog will be mated with an experienced bitch. There is an opinion that if one waits too long to put a dog at stud, he "might not know what to do" whereas a young boy may be more eager. These are almost "test matings" in these instances. If a dog isn't potent or doesn't produce better than he is, decisions might be made about his future as a show dog - esp. since a breeder might only keep a limited number of dogs and will want to keep the best and most productive.

Before anyone flames me - I may not have this explanation exactly correct and I may have terms wrong; I just remember hearing these things long ago from friends that were breeders. Also, I have no opinion of the validity of these reasons as I am not and never have been a breeder. I do, however, have the opinion that there is no reason important enough to breed a Cavalier before the recommended ages in the health protocols.

I also know that years ago my breeder friends would have loved to place intact boys in my home, and I was never interested. Perhaps that was selfish of me.........

Pat

Karlin
23rd June 2011, 10:51 PM
It is very common to breed male studs at 1 though many would be very concerned at breeding them younger than that when they are still technically puppies. :( The problem with doing this in cavaliers -- and why there cannot be any justification in doing so (after all, if a boy cannot figure out what goes where even if he hasn't been bred, doesn't that suggest a problem?! I know older neutered dogs only too happy to give a game girl a try and they have never been bred!) is that the two endemic and painful health issues are progressive and the ONLY way to get some grip on these diseases is to wait on breeding and test; ideally also to retest parents dogs after 5 to know did they remain heart clear? SM clear? Knowing the health results as these dogs age is really far more important in many ways than those initial tests at say 2.5, though any dog being bred needs to be scanned, of course. But breeders miss out on perhaps their most valuable information by not rescanning when dogs are 5+. Statistically, 6 seems to be a good age based on this research and similar done on a cohort of 800 cavaliers.

On revealing the names of the early bitches: Davecav, there were important privacy considerations involved as well. :thmbsup: People gave pedigrees and scans for researchers to use on the basis of confidentiality. All the dogs named in the research were therefore identified only by letters. Nonetheless, there was much speculation on public forums by breeders claiming to have figured out all the dogs. Funny but some of the same breeders who demanded names of dogs and speculated publicly on dog identities have been the same who (utterly falsely) accused researchers of violating privacy by revealing dog names to others, something which was never done. Some of these people are unbelieveable: people with an obsession about discrediting researchers, who damned researchers for not revealing names, then have made false posts damning them for supposedly revealing names and scan results. Real bottom feeders, and they know who they are (the ones who continue to lie about the status of their own dogs, or let's just say, not be open about the truth). But I agree that the real damage has been done, as Margaret says, by the fact that so much is now understood with growing evidence to strongly back breeding approaches and still the same old, same old crowd ignore this and won't follow guidelines.

As others note too, was already way too late to try and breed away from the two early bitches; the lineages by even the 70s-80s permeated pretty much every pedigree and on top of that, many of the older lines that are known now to have likely been better in terms of SM, have also been diluted with 'popular sires' and known affected dogs, so the real need is to work to breed away from an already widespread problem and one that was widespread and worsening at the time of the original pedigree work...which by the way, would have been absolutely impossible without Bet's massive collection of thousands of painstakingly-collected pedigrees, which have been pivotal for both MVD and SM researchers -- breeders themselves failed to amass such a vital record! And for that all that care about cavaliers owe Bet a debt. :)

Bet
24th June 2011, 10:45 AM
It is very common to breed male studs at 1 though many would be very concerned at breeding them younger than that when they are still technically puppies. :( The problem with doing this in cavaliers -- and why there cannot be any justification in doing so (after all, if a boy cannot figure out what goes where even if he hasn't been bred, doesn't that suggest a problem?! I know older neutered dogs only too happy to give a game girl a try and they have never been bred!) is that the two endemic and painful health issues are progressive and the ONLY way to get some grip on these diseases is to wait on breeding and test; ideally also to retest parents dogs after 5 to know did they remain heart clear? SM clear? Knowing the health results as these dogs age is really far more important in many ways than those initial tests at say 2.5, though any dog being bred needs to be scanned, of course. But breeders miss out on perhaps their most valuable information by not rescanning when dogs are 5+. Statistically, 6 seems to be a good age based on this research and similar done on a cohort of 800 cavaliers.

On revealing the names of the early bitches: Davecav, there were important privacy considerations involved as well. :thmbsup: People gave pedigrees and scans for researchers to use on the basis of confidentiality. All the dogs named in the research were therefore identified only by letters. Nonetheless, there was much speculation on public forums by breeders claiming to have figured out all the dogs. Funny but some of the same breeders who demanded names of dogs and speculated publicly on dog identities have been the same who (utterly falsely) accused researchers of violating privacy by revealing dog names to others, something which was never done. Some of these people are unbelieveable: people with an obsession about discrediting researchers, who damned researchers for not revealing names, then have made false posts damning them for supposedly revealing names and scan results. Real bottom feeders, and they know who they are (the ones who continue to lie about the status of their own dogs, or let's just say, not be open about the truth). But I agree that the real damage has been done, as Margaret says, by the fact that so much is now understood with growing evidence to strongly back breeding approaches and still the same old, same old crowd ignore this and won't follow guidelines.

As others note too, was already way too late to try and breed away from the two early bitches; the lineages by even the 70s-80s permeated pretty much every pedigree and on top of that, many of the older lines that are known now to have likely been better in terms of SM, have also been diluted with 'popular sires' and known affected dogs, so the real need is to work to breed away from an already widespread problem and one that was widespread and worsening at the time of the original pedigree work...which by the way, would have been absolutely impossible without Bet's massive collection of thousands of painstakingly-collected pedigrees, which have been pivotal for both MVD and SM researchers -- breeders themselves failed to amass such a vital record! And for that all that care about cavaliers owe Bet a debt. :)


STUDY OF SM in 555 ASYMPATIOMATIC CKCS:70% Affected by AGE 6


Karlin,

Thank you so much about what you have just Posted about me.

It has Made My Day.

I know I some-times Lose The HEID as we say here in Scotland ,and I should keep my Mouth Zipped !!! but.......

This is why I keep going on about our Cherished Cavaliers , there are really in such a Mess Health Wise, and I believe their Biggest Worry could be the CM Problem, that to over-come this ,Fresh Genes have to found from some-where.

Dr C Rusbridge Neurologist, has said in her Recent News-Letter ,that it might not be possible to Breed away from SM in CKCS because of it's Link to CM ,which is Ubiquitious( Every-Where) in the Cavalier Breed

There must be Cavaliers that could be MRI Scanned not from the Show Scene, who will have those Fresh Genes.

Before the Out Crossing of Cavaliers is considered , maybe some-body will be put in charge to look for those Cavaliers who will have those Different ,New Genes to be able to give the Cavalier Breed a Chance of Survival.

Thanks again Karlin for what you have said about me ,I Appreciate it Very Much.


Bet

Bet
26th June 2011, 06:46 PM
STUDY OF SM in 555 ASYMPATIOMATIC CKCS:70% Affected by AGE 6


Karlin,

Thank you so much about what you have just Posted about me.

It has Made My Day.

I know I some-times Lose The HEID as we say here in Scotland ,and I should keep my Mouth Zipped !!! but.......

This is why I keep going on about our Cherished Cavaliers , there are really in such a Mess Health Wise, and I believe their Biggest Worry could be the CM Problem, that to over-come this ,Fresh Genes have to found from some-where.

Dr C Rusbridge Neurologist, has said in her Recent News-Letter ,that it might not be possible to Breed away from SM in CKCS because of it's Link to CM ,which is Ubiquitious( Every-Where) in the Cavalier Breed

There must be Cavaliers that could be MRI Scanned not from the Show Scene, who will have those Fresh Genes.

Before the Out Crossing of Cavaliers is considered , maybe some-body will be put in charge to look for those Cavaliers who will have those Different ,New Genes to be able to give the Cavalier Breed a Chance of Survival.

Thanks again Karlin for what you have said about me ,I Appreciate it Very Much.


Bet



STUDY OF SM IN 555 ASYMPATOMATIC CKCS : 70% AFFECTED BY AGE 6


Our Poor Wee Cavaliers !!!!

Now we have some Cavalier Breeders Disputing the Figures from the Veterinary Record, Dr C Rusbridge ,Neuroloogist must Love our Cavalier Breed very Much , or she would just be walking away from all the Hassle she has to Suffer.

Dr Cattanach ,the UK CKCS CLUB'S Cardiologist ,and Bruce Field did just that in the Late 1980's when they had to put up with this same Treatment then.

The only thing that those Certain Cavalier Breeders are not Disputing ,is the Fact that 85 WHELPS were Researched for the FOETAL TISSUE RESEARCH and ALL 85 HAD CM.

This is Chacterized with Brains Too Big for the Skulls ,and can cause Problems for the Flow of the CEREPRO SPINAL FLUID which can lead to Syrinxes Forming and SM.


Do those Embittered Cavalier Breeders just have a Death Wish for our Cavalier Breed.???


Bet

Bet
27th June 2011, 09:45 AM
STUDY OF SM IN 555 ASYMPATOMATIC CKCS : 70% AFFECTED BY AGE 6


Our Poor Wee Cavaliers !!!!

Now we have some Cavalier Breeders Disputing the Figures from the Veterinary Record, Dr C Rusbridge ,Neuroloogist must Love our Cavalier Breed very Much , or she would just be walking away from all the Hassle she has to Suffer.

Dr Cattanach ,the UK CKCS CLUB'S Cardiologist ,and Bruce Field did just that in the Late 1980's when they had to put up with this same Treatment then.

The only thing that those Certain Cavalier Breeders are not Disputing ,is the Fact that 85 WHELPS were Researched for the FOETAL TISSUE RESEARCH and ALL 85 HAD CM.

This is Chacterized with Brains Too Big for the Skulls ,and can cause Problems for the Flow of the CEREPRO SPINAL FLUID which can lead to Syrinxes Forming and SM.


Do those Embittered Cavalier Breeders just have a Death Wish for our Cavalier Breed.???


Bet

STUDY OF SM IN 555 ASYMPATOMATIC CKCS : 70 % AFFECTED BY AGE 6

I was so Disgusted by the Ill- Tempered Remarks made by some Cavalier Breeders on the Other Forum about this Veterinary Paper, that I have just sent my money for the Copy of this Paper to the Veterinary Record,.

Just received the Full Report by E-Mail , it makes interesting Reading,I think that those Cavalier Breeders who are disbelieving the Figures and what the Veterinary Paper says, should themselves, pay the Money for a Copy of this Veterinary Paper, then they just might believe what has been Stated in this Veterinary Paper.

Or is it a case ,of PIGS MIGHT FLY.

Unfortunately the most Vociferious of those Cavalier Breeders are on the CKCS CLUB COMMITTEE

Bet