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View Full Version : Is this the reason for less cavaliers being shown at ckcs shows?



Bet
26th June 2011, 01:08 PM
In this week's DOG WORLD was an interesting comment by Cavalier Breed's Columnist, that " we are now Regularly getting only a Few more Dogs entered than Pugs and Paps ,and a very small Absentee Rate."


Could the reason for this be because the Cavalier Buying Public are now aware about the SM and MVD Health Problems Afflicting our Cavaliers and are just not buying so many Cavaliers now-a-days, and the Cavalier Breeders are being left with Surplus Cavaliers and as a result there are now fewer Cavaliers being Bred .

This could maybe be reason for the Dramatic fall in In Cavalier Registrations recently.

Bet

ByFloSin
26th June 2011, 01:14 PM
Show people are like everyone else Bet. Trying to cope with rising prices for food and clothing, fuel for their cars, increased entry fees and not knowing from one day to the next how long they are going to be in work.

Bet
26th June 2011, 01:27 PM
[QUOTE=ByFloSin;394585]Show people are like everyone else Bet. Trying to cope with rising prices for food and clothing, fuel for their cars, increased entry fees and not knowing from one day to the next how long they are going to be in work.[/QUOTE


IS THIS THE REASON WHY LESS CAVALIERS BEING SHOWN AT CKCS SHOWS?

Still believe that the Cavalier Buying now know about the Serious Health Problems Afflicting our Cavaliers,the drop in the Registrations happened before the Recession was here .

Do you not think that the Cavalier Buying Public are more aware now than they ever were about SM and MVD?

Bet

Nicki
26th June 2011, 01:58 PM
Some of them are Bet, but not enough sadly - and even worse are the ones that know, but still purchase a puppy from a breeder who is not breeding according to protocols, and not able to show certificate of health testing - just because it's convenient, they want a puppy NOW, and they've fallen in love with a puppy BEFORE asking the important questions...


However I agree with Flo, many people just can't afford to show their dogs anymore - that isn't necessarily affected by a drop in puppy sales or registrations. How many of us are finding it hard to afford luxuries now? They were discussing this on the radio the other day, how people have had to make major changes in their lives due to just the cost of fuel. The fuel here has increased from about 84p litre 8 years ago, to around 1.44 litre now - it is severely limiting many people here. Living in a rural area, where everyone is dependant on their cars, it makes life very difficult.

goda
26th June 2011, 08:38 PM
In this week's DOG WORLD was an interesting comment by Cavalier Breed's Columnist, that " we are now Regularly getting only a Few more Dogs entered than Pugs and Paps ,and a very small Absentee Rate."


Could the reason for this be because the Cavalier Buying Public are now aware about the SM and MVD Health Problems Afflicting our Cavaliers and are just not buying so many Cavaliers now-a-days, and the Cavalier Breeders are being left with Surplus Cavaliers and as a result there are now fewer Cavaliers being Bred .

This could maybe be reason for the Dramatic fall in In Cavalier Registrations recently.

Bet

In my humble opinion, I think it's Cavalier owners coming to their senses that showing dogs is vein and frivolous. I wouldn't "show" my children, why show my dog..both my cavaliers are akc registered and I could care less. They are happy being dogs and chasing squirrels.

dozyrosy
26th June 2011, 09:26 PM
Bet, I believe that showing less is probably due to rising prices as Flo and Nicki have already said - all hobbies tend to fall into the luxuries class, and breeders like every one else still need to pay for their living essentials. And good breeders may well be more cautious when choosing to breed anyway due to increased awareness of SM, etc - they don't all need the Cavalier buying public to either educate them or force them into good practice when they are quite capable of using their own eyes and ears and making their own breeding decisions. If less litters were coming from non-show breeders that would be a good sign as it would then suggest that the BYBs and puppy farmers were being impacted? Show breeders are just the tip of the iceberg after all...

So NO I definitely don't believe that it's anything to do with the Cavalier buying public as most of them will still buy cheap and quick: educated buyers like good breeders are still unfortunately in the minority. You can take a horse to water but you can't make him drink as the saying goes...

Rosemary

ByFloSin
27th June 2011, 10:00 AM
Rosemary said:

So NO I definitely don't believe that it's anything to do with the Cavalier buying public as most of them will still buy cheap and quick: educated buyers like good breeders are still unfortunately in the minority. You can take a horse to water but you can't make him drink as the saying goes...

I have so often despaired of the puppy buying public. I took Joe out to one of the largest parks in the area yesterday. Of course many stopped to admire him and one man said that his family want a Cavalier and will start to look for a pup when they come back off their holidays. He asked if I breed, then if I know where he can get a pup like Joe. I checked that he has a computer, then wrote down links to the websites for the UK Club and the Midland. The man said they are a very busy family and won't have time for all that. Said he will have a look at the Birmingham Mail because they have lots of pups in there and 'A Cavalier pup is a Cavalier pup, when all's said and done'. Then they walked on.

That encounter is typical of many I have in this area, week on week, sometimes more than one a day.

Goda - I show my dogs now and then sometimes to raise money for charity at Companion Shows and just as often at Open and Championship Shows because I think my dogs are beautiful and I enjoy competition, win or loose and I do lots of both. I also love the atmosphere of show and the company of like minded people and their dogs. The shopping is usually great too. As with most other show people, my dogs are pets first and show dogs second.

sins
27th June 2011, 11:59 AM
I don't feel that showing cavaliers is vain and frivolous at all.
I think that any breeder who is serious about breeding dogs of any breed should show.To be honest,let's admit that it's the way a cavalier looks that we've all fallen in love with,the size,shape,expression and temperament.
Showing your dog is helpful to get an experienced opinion from a judge about the construction of your dog.
Also if you observe other people's dogs,you can compare your own with theirs.If you don't actually know what a top quality cavalier looks like,how can you aspire to breed ones that give your customer the maximum enjoyment of their pet.
It's also a way to display your best dogs,an advertising window for your stud dogs if they win well.People can then see a dog live in the flesh and see if they'd suit their bitch.
Luckily cavaliers are not a breed prone to exaggeration and even though I don't show very much,I enjoyed bringing out a new puppy over the weekend to her second and third shows.
But the biggest thrill is seeing the other cavaliers in full coat,sailing around the ring looking sensational.
I couldn't think of a more enjoyable way to spend a Sunday morning.
But it is expensive.
Unless you're a top winning exhibitor,competing for top honours,most people will have to reduce the number of shows they do because of the economy and the financial restraints.
An average breakdown of costs:
Petrol 85
Entry fees: 25
parking/catalogue..10
snacks........10
With two children and three cavaliers to look after,it's sensible that I choose shows that are closest to me,shows that my friends will be at so we can have a good chat.We have all breed championship shows here,so you'd meet the people you started ringcraft and showing with,so there's a good social aspect.
Some people like to go to a rock concert,eat out at a nice restaurant,but I'm quite happy to go to a few shows over the summer....wander around the rings and look at dogs,meet people from all walks of life.
I've done a lot more frivolous and pointless things in my time and spent money far more foolishly over the years.I can appreciate that not everyone would feel the same but that's ok too.
Sins

anniemac
27th June 2011, 02:43 PM
Some cavalier owners may not understand or want to go to a specialty show and thats fine. I was like that before Ella was diagnosed with SM. It actually was because of meeting people online, breeders and owners, that I wanted to see them in person. What Sins said about seeing friends and explaining the weekend is said in a way I can't. You can read things online or in books, but what better way to learn than being around others.

I will say, I will never consider buying a Cavalier from a breeder that does not show or involved in showing in someway, either confirmation, agility, obedience, etc.

Holly
28th June 2011, 03:56 PM
In my humble opinion, I think it's Cavalier owners coming to their senses that showing dogs is vein and frivolous. I wouldn't "show" my children, why show my dog..both my cavaliers are akc registered and I could care less. They are happy being dogs and chasing squirrels.

Wow- this is quite a statement. I show my Cavaliers and really enjoy it-- as do my dogs. They are definitely my pets first and show dogs second, and get ample time chasing squirrels and being dogs, but they also enjoy going to the training classes and having their brains exercised and stimulated as they learn what to do in the show ring. The dog I am showing currently is heart and eye clear. We make a good team in the ring- he is a Dual Champion but more importantly, we have fun in the ring. He barks at me occasionally if he is stacking particularly well and he feels he deserves some bait. ;-)

A good friend of mine loves to paint and does gorgeous artwork-- not to sell, just because she enjoys it. Should this be considered vein and frivolous? I was just laughing with her the other day because I said that I have absolutely zero interest in painting and arts and crafts and she has zero interest in Cavaliers and/ or showing-- dogs in general, really. But, that is what makes the world go 'round. Do you have a hobby?

And, yes-- showing is very expensive and time consuming.

goda
28th June 2011, 04:07 PM
Wow- this is quite a statement. I show my Cavaliers and really enjoy it-- as do my dogs. They are definitely my pets first and show dogs second, and get ample time chasing squirrels and being dogs, but they also enjoy going to the training classes and having their brains exercised and stimulated as they learn what to do in the show ring. The dog I am showing currently is heart and eye clear. We make a good team in the ring- he is a Dual Champion but more importantly, we have fun in the ring. He barks at me occasionally if he is stacking particularly well and he feels he deserves some bait. ;-)

A good friend of mine loves to paint and does gorgeous artwork-- not to sell, just because she enjoys it. Should this be considered vein and frivolous? I was just laughing with her the other day because I said that I have absolutely zero interest in painting and arts and crafts and she has zero interest in Cavaliers and/ or showing-- dogs in general, really. But, that is what makes the world go 'round. Do you have a hobby?

And, yes-- showing is very expensive and time consuming.

Your dog can't talk and tell you what they think of being shown. I am pretty sure if your dog took you to a show and started evaluating you on your looks and abilities you might not be so comfortable with it. You can exercise your dogs brain without subjecting them to being judged. And yeah when your hobby is to take advantage of another living being it's not the most appealing to me.

You don't show the dog for its amusement. I just think it's degrading and I am glad less and less people are doing it. Like I said that is just my opinion.

Holly
28th June 2011, 04:21 PM
Your dog can't talk and tell you what they think of being shown. I am pretty sure if your dog took you to a show and started evaluating you on your looks and abilities you might not be so comfortable with it. You can exercise your dogs brain without subjecting them to being judged. And yeah when your hobby is to take advantage of another living being it's not the most appealing to me.

You don't show the dog for its amusement. I just think it's degrading and I am glad less and less people are doing it. Like I said that is just my opinion.

Hmmm... nor can a dog tell you a what they think of their life in general, right?? Maybe your dog would enjoy dog shows even though you don't! ;-) We do the best we can for our dogs based on what we observe. I would never show a dog that showed signs of not enjoying training or being in the ring. What about people who enjoy competing in obedience or agility? Or, people who show or compete with their horses? Just as in agility and obedience, there is a good deal of training involved in conformation. I greatly enjoy the classes we take before-hand, and it's an outing for my dog. So-- I go by the fact that win or lose, we both have fun in the ring, his tail is wagging, and it is a bonding experience for both of us. In fact, win or lose, I am always a winner bc my dog comes home with me! :) I am guessing you aren't a fan of the Kentucky Derby, either.

Breed standard is what makes a Cavalier a Cavalier. That is the purpose of shows-- to evaluate for breed standard and breeding stock-- including health. A dog show is not just for people's amusement. I have a dog with SM-- I know how important Health and health testing is. I think you are missing the point that a dog show is supposed to evaluate breed type. Isn't that why you bought a Cavalier? For it's sweet temperament and you found it to be visually appealing?

Everyone is entitled to an opinion but differences are what makes the world go 'round.

Holly
28th June 2011, 05:12 PM
Something else I think is great about the US shows-Old Club and some AKC- are the heart and eye clinics where exhibitors and pet owners can have board certified cardiologists and ophthalmologists do heart and eye checks at a fraction of the cost of going in to the doctor's office.

To keep this on topic, from what I know, there is a decline in show entries here in the US, as well- mostly due to the bad economy. Shows are costly. I do think a reputable breeder is health-conscious and follows the protocols and shows his/her dogs.

anniemac
28th June 2011, 05:15 PM
Your dog can't talk and tell you what they think of being shown. I am pretty sure if your dog took you to a show and started evaluating you on your looks and abilities you might not be so comfortable with it. You can exercise your dogs brain without subjecting them to being judged. And yeah when your hobby is to take advantage of another living being it's not the most appealing to me.

You don't show the dog for its amusement. I just think it's degrading and I am glad less and less people are doing it. Like I said that is just my opinion.

I do not show Cavaliers but I have been to shows. I find a couple of problems because at the shows I've been to, I can not say that these Cavaliers were miserable. In fact they seemed extremely happy. The problem is when people read statements about showing Cavaliers sometimes one can miss some of the possitives. One thing like Sins and Holly said, it is important for breeders to evaluate and make decisions based on others. Like I say I'm not a breeder but from reading websites on buying a Cavalier, they say this is extremely important.

I went to a seminar on breed standard and one important thing the judges look at is if they are wagging there tail. I don't know how one can teach that but wagging tails always made me think they were happy. In fact the description of Cavaliers has a big importance of their temperment and general gay temperment.


This is from the two breed clubs in the USA

http://www.ckcsc.org/ckcsc/ckcsc_inc.nsf/Founded-1954/standard.html

"

General:


An active, graceful, well-balanced dog, very gay and free in action; fearless and sporting in character, yet at the same time gentle and affectionate.




It is important to remember that a dog can have one or more of the faults listed in the Standard, in moderation, and still be an over-all typical, gay elegant Cavalier. On the other hand, bad temper or meanness are not to be tolerated and shall be considered disqualifying faults. It is the typical gay temperament, combined with true elegance and "royal" appearance, which are of paramount importance in the breed."

and

http://ackcsc.org/Club-Info/breed-standard.html

"GENERAL APPEARANCE
The Cavalier King Charles Spaniel is an active, graceful, well-balanced toy spaniel, very gay and free in action; fearless and sporting in character, yet at the same time gentle and affectionate. It is this typical gay temperament, combined with true elegance and royal appearance which are of paramount importance in the breed. Natural appearance with no trimming, sculpting or artificial alteration is essential to breed type.


TEMPERAMENT
Gay, friendly, non-aggressive with no tendency towards nervousness or shyness. Bad temper, shyness and meanness are not to be tolerated and are to be so severely penalized as to effectively remove the specimen from competition."



Also like Holly said, besides Confirmation there are different types of competions. Agility, Rally, Obedience, and my favorite Freestyle. I love the video of the girl dancing with a Cavalier. I think one person got 2nd place at Crufts last year?

RodRussell
28th June 2011, 05:35 PM
... You don't show the dog for its amusement. I just think it's degrading and I am glad less and less people are doing it. ...

I think that conformation showing is very important to the breed. It is one of the most important things that a serious, dedicated cavalier breeder should be doing on a fairly regular basis. Following the breed standard is a primary reason for breeding purebreds. Only by showing at least some of the breeding stock will enable the breeder to know whether or not she is on the right track. Of course, showing before some judges can be a waste of time, since not all judges are as dedicated to the breed standard as they should be, and judging can be subjective.

But it is not just appearing before judges. When a breeder takes her stock to shows, she also can obtain the critiques of other breeders, those experienced ones whom she respects for their objective observations. If a breeder does not get that input from shows (judges and experienced breeders), then she risks kennel blindness.

If I had to choose between two breeders, one who shows in CKCSC.USA conformation shows and/or AKC cavalier specialties, and another breeder who did neither, I would choose the breeder who shows. I would wonder what the point was for the non-show breeder.

I have shown cavaliers in conformation and agility, and I can tell you that most of the ones being showed were having a good time. When our dogs stopped enjoying themselves, we stopped showing them.

sunshinekisses
28th June 2011, 05:35 PM
Well, if you watch my boy in the show ring it is very obvious he is having a blast...his tail never stops! :)

But back to Bet's comment about loss of buyers...I think also the economy has caused the low numbers.

I think the economy is a big issue for smaller shows as well. We got very lucky that all our local shows, so far, have been major wins. I have heard that it is more difficult to find majors the last couple years. (I am in U.S.)

goda
28th June 2011, 05:51 PM
I think that conformation showing is very important to the breed. It is one of the most important things that a serious, dedicated cavalier breeder should be doing on a fairly regular basis. Following the breed standard is a primary reason for breeding purebreds. Only by showing at least some of the breeding stock will enable the breeder to know whether or not she is on the right track. Of course, showing before some judges can be a waste of time, since not all judges are as dedicated to the breed standard as they should be, and judging can be subjective.

But it is not just appearing before judges. When a breeder takes her stock to shows, she also can obtain the critiques of other breeders, those experienced ones whom she respects for their objective observations. If a breeder does not get that input from shows (judges and experienced breeders), then she risks kennel blindness.

If I had to choose between two breeders, one who shows in CKCSC.USA conformation shows and/or AKC cavalier specialties, and another breeder who did neither, I would choose the breeder who shows. I would wonder what the point was for the non-show breeder.

I have shown cavaliers in conformation and agility, and I can tell you that most of the ones being showed were having a good time. When our dogs stopped enjoying themselves, we stopped showing them.

They are being showered with positive attentions from the owners and rewarded for their behavior of course they will look "happy".

Holly
28th June 2011, 06:10 PM
They are being showered with positive attentions from the owners and rewarded for their behavior of course they will look "happy".

Yes.... And what is wrong with that? My dogs always get praised for doing what I ask them to do. Positive reinforcement! Isn't that the basis of good training?

goda
28th June 2011, 06:39 PM
Yes.... And what is wrong with that? My dogs always get praised for doing what I ask them to do. Positive reinforcement! Isn't that the basis of good training?

If you gave your dog an option of being paraded in a rink and chasing squirrels I think we both know what they would choose.

RodRussell
28th June 2011, 08:06 PM
They are being showered with positive attentions from the owners and rewarded for their behavior of course they will look "happy".

I know my dogs. I know when they are happy. I would not show them if they did not enjoy it. I have stopped showing dogs that obviously did not enjoy it.

Here are a couple of my dogs having the time of their lives in the ring:
http://cavalierhealth.org/images/CavalierHealthOrg-jewels-weaves-0603.jpg
http://cavalierhealth.org/images/CavalierHealthOrg_sprong.jpg

Holly
28th June 2011, 10:46 PM
If you gave your dog an option of being paraded in a rink and chasing squirrels I think we both know what they would choose.

Awww, well what about the poor squirrel?! ;-) It would probably rather that our dogs were in the show ring than chasing them, LOL!

goda
28th June 2011, 11:00 PM
Awww, well what about the poor squirrel?! ;-) It would probably rather that our dogs were in the show ring than chasing them, LOL!

They steal my blueberries and strawberries even though I give them nuts and corn. And they like it because they taunt my dogs.

I can see why other people show their dogs, I just don't agree. What other people do with their dogs is really none of my business, I just don't support nor advocate for that sort of practice.

*Shrugs*

Karen and Ruby
28th June 2011, 11:27 PM
I personally think its a combination of both- I do Obedience and Agility with my two and the rising costs of not only the entry fees but the petrol as well have meant I have had to cut down on how far I will go - unless i make a holiday out of it and camp for longer!


The average cost of entering a class at an obeidience competition is between 3.50 and 6.00- THAT IS PER CLASS . My two enter two classes each that can be 20 + before thinking about petrol.

Agility is slightly cheaper but where I am there are less shows so I travel further and end up camping for a few nights.

Having a hobby that involves your loved ones is very rewarding and enjoyable and I dont hold that against anyone, BUT saying that I do find the showing af Cavaliers right now quite upsetting since recent research has shown that the majority of Cavaliers do suffer with CM or SM.
Given the secrecy we have experienced around the health of cavaliers and breeders/breeding programs I can't help but think that showing these dogs has to take a back seat to getting them healthy again.

Just my thoughts?

anniemac
28th June 2011, 11:33 PM
I know my dogs. I know when they are happy. I would not show them if they did not enjoy it. I have stopped showing dogs that obviously did not enjoy it.

Here are a couple of my dogs having the time of their lives in the ring:
http://cavalierhealth.org/images/CavalierHealthOrg-jewels-weaves-0603.jpg
http://cavalierhealth.org/images/CavalierHealthOrg_sprong.jpg

Very Cute :o I have only seen that one photo so that was nice to see. I can definately see smiles on their faces

Davecav
29th June 2011, 10:14 AM
I too would hazard a guess that petrol costs will have a big effect on numbers showing their dogs. It is a worrying time in the UK at the moment, people are losing their jobs, not having pay icnreases, and in some cases having cuts in pay. We all still have to pay mortgages, bills, and basics for our families and dogs, showing will have to take a bit of a back seat for quite a few people, just as other hobbies or activites, ie horse riding for the kids, tennis lessons etc. If people who show do have a family then probably the shows will be the first thing to be cut back on in hard times.I agree with those that do show their dogs though, that it must be really enjoyable both for them and their dogs. A miserable dog, who hates being there will look hang-dog however many treats are wafted passed his nose, so there would be no point in taking him.The shows I've been to watch have lots of excited and happy dogs there, who enjoy the atmosphere and company. Think of it from their point of view. There are lots of lovely doggy smells, lots of other dogs the can say hello to, lots of activity to watch and join in with, lots of people making a fuss of them!! not to mention the treats.Wow it sounds like heaven!

Kate H
29th June 2011, 12:25 PM
Reading Our Dogs magazine regularly, the drop in show numbers is general to all breeds, not just Cavaliers. Karen mentioned obedience entries going up to around 4.50 a class - a championship show entry is now at least 20 a class, and often 25. Enter a couple of classes (not worth going for just one), add on petrol, and you can be looking at 100 for each show. No prize money, and the costs of keeping dogs (food, insurance, vets bills) are going up all the time as well - I'm not surprised that people are thinking twice and being far more selective about which shows they go to. Interestingly, at the more local, cheaper Open shows entries seem to be increasing a bit.

As far as Cavaliers are concerned, I regularly meet small-scale breeders who are simply pulling out of breeding and showing because they have SM in their line or have put a lot of time, effort and money into breeding SM/MVD-clear dogs and it just seems to be increasingly impossible to breed healthy puppies.

Dogs may not be able to speak, but they can certainly make their feelings known, and an experienced dog owner will have a pretty good idea by reading their body language what they are feeling or wanting (Cavaliers are especially good at letting you know what they want!). If my dog is quivering with excitement and wagging his tail furiously, I would guess he's enjoying himself. Dogs are not natural, wild animals, they are domesticated animals who at some stage in their evolution decided that living at close quarters with humans in return for not having to hunt for their food or fight off predators was a worthwhile exchange. 10,000 years later they are still making this decision - it is worth doing some of the daft things humans ask of them in return for food, shelter, praise, fun, and the opportunity to develop and use their brains. If they didn't think the exchange was worth it, there is usually nothing to stop them walking out of the front gate and going feral. Some dogs decide some things are not worth it - hence the dogs who hate showing and make it obvious. But a good dog owner works with their dog's natural instincts and abilities, not against them. I do obedience with my rescue Aled, who spent the first 18 months of his life shut in a kennel on a puppy farm and when I got him was worried by almost everything. Last month, at 4 years old, he won a fifth place in PreBeginners and the judge's report said 'Aled is such a happy chappie'. Training has really built up his confidence and enjoyment of life, he loves the fuss and praise he gets, he copes much better with life generally; but I had to train him in a way that worked for him - very differently from the way I can work with Oliver. But for me that is the fascination of doing obedience (which as a sport I find pretty boring!) - learning how to work with your dog as a partnership.

Kate, Oliver and Aled