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Brian M
28th June 2011, 05:42 PM
Hi

Have a read below ,good job there isnt a doggy C.S.A.

http://pedigreedogsexposed.blogspot.com/

Bet
28th June 2011, 07:34 PM
Hi

Have a read below ,good job there isnt a doggy C.S.A.

http://pedigreedogsexposed.blogspot.com/



PEDIGREE DOGS EXPOSED -AMAZING STATISTICS


Just read it Brian,


The Cavalier Mentioned in the Blog was the Result of Margaret being removed as the UK CKCS CLUB HEALTH Representative.

I really do wonder if some of the Cavalier Breeders who are in Denial about the SM and MVD Health Problems in our Cavalier Breed ,are the ones because of not accepting that those Two Conditions are causing Suffering to our Cavaliers,those Cavalier Breeders are responsible for the Mess the Cavalier Breed is in now Health Wise.

Bet

Nicki
28th June 2011, 09:22 PM
Bet those breeders do not produce so many Cavaliers a year that you can entirely blame all the breed's health problems upon them :mad:

They should be setting an example by following guidelines and breeding for health, but the majority of puppy farmers and BYB do no health testing at all, and their dogs are kept in disgusting conditions and not looked after properly either. :(

Bet
29th June 2011, 11:14 AM
Bet those breeders do not produce so many Cavaliers a year that you can entirely blame all the breed's health problems upon them :mad:

They should be setting an example by following guidelines and breeding for health, but the majority of puppy farmers and BYB do no health testing at all, and their dogs are kept in disgusting conditions and not looked after properly either. :(


PEDIGREE DOGS EXPOSED BLOG- AMAZING STATISTICS


I do think that those Cavalier Breeders who have been Breeding Cavaliers for 30-40 years ,and were warned by Dr P. Darke , the UK Club's Cardiologist in 1983 after he had carried Heart Surveys at Cavalier Club Shows about how wide-spread the MVD Problem was in our Cavalier Breed and the UK Club issued Breeding Guidelines in 1987 for MVD ,so yes I do believe that those Cavalier Breeders have a lot to answer for the Serious MVD Problem in Cavaliers to-day,since the Researchers into MVD have said that nearly all Cavaliers could be Carriers of the MVD Gene/Genes to-day.

This is another thought I have mentioned on the List ,I hate Puppy Farms, but the Fresh Genes have got to come from some-where for the CM problem in our Cavaliers because it's been said that around 90% have CM ,which is Chacterized with Brains too Big for the Skulls, and this can stop the Flow of the Cerebro Spinal Fluid causing Syrinxes leading to SM ,so will some of those Cavaliers from Puppy Farms have those Fresh Genes,it will either have to be that or Out-Crossing Cavaliers if the Cavaliers can survive.

Bet

Brian M
29th June 2011, 12:18 PM
Hi

What I did find worrying was the extent that some top show dogs (in all breeds ) have been used at stud and
the resultant effect of making some gene pools even smaller because of the great use of a particular
dog .And of course then with the spread of any defective issues if that paricular dog was a carrier
of any genetic problems .So I do think that these top show stud dogs should be limited on the number
of times they can be used and then of course only used if they comply and prove they conform to
all the necessary health testing criteria.

I neither breed nor show so am unaware of the rules and regulations ,so why are some top winning show
dogs used to such a great extent is it pure greed by the breeder or an attempt to get their particular
kennel dominant or just plain kudos for themselves. I cannot think of one single reason why that particular
Cavalier was used after it was proven it had SM nor why The Kennel Club registered these litters ,but this is
I suppose old ground that has been raked over many times before but its still extremely nauseating .

sins
29th June 2011, 12:39 PM
Hi Bet,
I don't wish to go over old ground again,but this idea that puppy farmed or dogs who are not bred from show stock are somehow healthier than show lines really needs to be addressed.
I have looked hard and honestly found no evidence to support that idea.Commercial breeders are producing D and Es...as well as As and any A that I'm aware of is still accompanied by malformation and herniation.
Now,back to Brian's initial post about a link he saw on the PDE Blogspot.
It's about an update to the mateselect program where it's possible to use the healthfinder section to check what tests have been carried out on a dog.You can now query the tests done on a dog's parents,siblings and offspring if a test has been done under the BVA/KC scheme.As you can see it can give you the info on Eye testing regarding affected status for juvenile cataract as I understand it.It will also tell you how many litters and how many puppies a dog has sired or a bitch produced.
You can imagine the potential this database has when the SM and Heart schemes come online for breeders to factor in health considerations into their breeding programme...or to allow a breeder to see how many times a stud dog has been used and decide if they want to follow the popular mainstream choices.
Because this is the way forward...NOT trawling through puppy farms for needles in haystacks,but equipping progressive breeders who want a strong future for the cavalier breed to tackle a very difficult job.
In order to do the job properly I think what's needed is to allow the foundations to be put down to allow sensible breeding decisions to be made,without pressure or censure.
The breeders who own the dogs should be given access to all the data freely,but the decisions regarding matings have to be left to the breeders themselves.
There are no quick and easy fixes and we all need patience to see improvements.
Let's just see what the future holds,hopefully a more bright and healthier one.
Sins

Bet
29th June 2011, 12:52 PM
Hi Bet,
I don't wish to go over old ground again,but this idea that puppy farmed or dogs who are not bred from show stock are somehow healthier than show lines really needs to be addressed.
I have looked hard and honestly found no evidence to support that idea.Commercial breeders are producing D and Es...as well as As and any A that I'm aware of is still accompanied by malformation and herniation.
Now,back to Brian's initial post about a link he saw on the PDE Blogspot.
It's about an update to the mateselect program where it's possible to use the healthfinder section to check what tests have been carried out on a dog.You can now query the tests done on a dog's parents,siblings and offspring if a test has been done under the BVA/KC scheme.As you can see it can give you the info on Eye testing regarding affected status for juvenile cataract as I understand it.It will also tell you how many litters and how many puppies a dog has sired or a bitch produced.
You can imagine the potential this database has when the SM and Heart schemes come online for breeders to factor in health considerations into their breeding programme...or to allow a breeder to see how many times a stud dog has been used and decide if they want to follow the popular mainstream choices.
Because this is the way forward...NOT trawling through puppy farms for needles in haystacks,but equipping progressive breeders who want a strong future for the cavalier breed to tackle a very difficult job.
In order to do the job properly I think what's needed is to allow the foundations to be put down to allow sensible breeding decisions to be made,without pressure or censure.
The breeders who own the dogs should be given access to all the data freely,but the decisions regarding matings have to be left to the breeders themselves.
There are no quick and easy fixes and we all need patience to see improvements.
Let's just see what the future holds,hopefully a more bright and healthier one.
Sins


PEDIGREE DOGS EXPOSED BLOG- AMAZINING STATISTICS

The Mention of Out Crossing Cavaliers on this List has been mentioned by Others as has been said by the Kennel Club.

Bet

RodRussell
29th June 2011, 02:24 PM
... This is another thought I have mentioned on the List ,I hate Puppy Farms, but ... so will some of those Cavaliers from Puppy Farms have those Fresh Genes, ...

Aaaarrrrgggghhhh!!!!

Karlin
29th June 2011, 03:23 PM
To be fair: the breed is in such a dire situation that bringing in dogs from outside show breeder circles is almost certainly going to eventually be needed. Not all of these are 'puppy farm' dogs, and Bet, it would help not to keep referring to them as such. I know a couple of breeders who register their dogs, breed primarily for the pet market and are far more involved in health testing and supporting research than, say, a lot of people on various breed club committees, including the so-called health representatives.

While there's no evidence that any majprity of dogs bred outside show circles are healthier, neurologists say they do not scan more frequently with SM than breeder dogs, and there's certainly plenty of evidence that there are those who scan A and also have good hearts, and do not have all the usual dogs in their immediate pedigrees, and have more varied genetic background, which suggests there are a lot of potentially useful and valuable dogs outside show circles that may be important for any breed recovery effort.

GraciesMom
29th June 2011, 03:57 PM
I think that what you descibe represents the situation in the USA very well... can't speak for the other areas. I am finding that the ones who do scan may sometimes be small breeders in remote areas who do not or rarely show their dogs. This is mostly based on calling about 25 breeders in the Southeastern US to start looking for second Cav for our home, but also based on what other Cav owners are reporting to me.

Bet
30th June 2011, 11:26 AM
Hi Bet,
I don't wish to go over old ground again,but this idea that puppy farmed or dogs who are not bred from show stock are somehow healthier than show lines really needs to be addressed.
I have looked hard and honestly found no evidence to support that idea.Commercial breeders are producing D and Es...as well as As and any A that I'm aware of is still accompanied by malformation and herniation.
Now,back to Brian's initial post about a link he saw on the PDE Blogspot.
It's about an update to the mateselect program where it's possible to use the healthfinder section to check what tests have been carried out on a dog.You can now query the tests done on a dog's parents,siblings and offspring if a test has been done under the BVA/KC scheme.As you can see it can give you the info on Eye testing regarding affected status for juvenile cataract as I understand it.It will also tell you how many litters and how many puppies a dog has sired or a bitch produced.
You can imagine the potential this database has when the SM and Heart schemes come online for breeders to factor in health considerations into their breeding programme...or to allow a breeder to see how many times a stud dog has been used and decide if they want to follow the popular mainstream choices.
Because this is the way forward...NOT trawling through puppy farms for needles in haystacks,but equipping progressive breeders who want a strong future for the cavalier breed to tackle a very difficult job.
In order to do the job properly I think what's needed is to allow the foundations to be put down to allow sensible breeding decisions to be made,without pressure or censure.
The breeders who own the dogs should be given access to all the data freely,but the decisions regarding matings have to be left to the breeders themselves.
There are no quick and easy fixes and we all need patience to see improvements.
Let's just see what the future holds,hopefully a more bright and healthier one.
Sins


PEDIGREE DOGS EXPOSED BLOG-AMAZING STATISTICS


Please tell me how can the Foundations be put down to allow Sensible Cavalier Breeding Decisions to be made.

It has been mentioned that around 90% of Cavaliers have CM ,therefor there can be very few Cavaliers who are not Carriers of the CM Gene/Genes.

So if so many Cavaliers are either Afflicted or Carriers of the CM Gene/Genes, then by using those Cavaliers the CM problem won't improve in anyway ,

How can it?

Bet

sins
30th June 2011, 12:26 PM
Please tell me how can the Foundations be put down to allow Sensible Cavalier Breeding Decisions to be made.

It's already happening Bet and has been for some time.
It's a multi pronged approach...Education,Research and testing.All three are vital legs of the stool.
Now the Kennel Club seem to be putting in place the framework for better data management with the healthfinder on Mateselect.
Education and information is very widely distributed in many formats,via clubs,messageboards,websites etc..
Some breeders are championing research, especially the Foetal tissue research project and we all await an update from that with much anticipation.
Then there's the genome project,aided by scans paid for via Rupertsfund.
Some breeders are scanning and being guided by the results obtained.There are new low cost venues and all days are well attended and all of this provides data for the EBV scheme.I've seen some recent scan certs(before you ask,it's because they're relevant to my own dogs) from Clare Rusbridge and the amount of information they give is extremely good.Some of those dogs have malformation only and are completely asymptomatic and can be expected to live a very normal life.
The Goal is improvement Bet,no eradication of a condition at this stage.
But without firm foundations,any attempts to improve matters will be like building castles in the air.
Roaring and bawling at the small few who are genuinely trying,won't help matters...Keep flogging the best horses and they'll eventually break down.
Sins

Bet
1st July 2011, 11:17 AM
It's already happening Bet and has been for some time.
It's a multi pronged approach...Education,Research and testing.All three are vital legs of the stool.
Now the Kennel Club seem to be putting in place the framework for better data management with the healthfinder on Mateselect.
Education and information is very widely distributed in many formats,via clubs,messageboards,websites etc..
Some breeders are championing research, especially the Foetal tissue research project and we all await an update from that with much anticipation.
Then there's the genome project,aided by scans paid for via Rupertsfund.
Some breeders are scanning and being guided by the results obtained.There are new low cost venues and all days are well attended and all of this provides data for the EBV scheme.I've seen some recent scan certs(before you ask,it's because they're relevant to my own dogs) from Clare Rusbridge and the amount of information they give is extremely good.Some of those dogs have malformation only and are completely asymptomatic and can be expected to live a very normal life.
The Goal is improvement Bet,no eradication of a condition at this stage.
But without firm foundations,any attempts to improve matters will be like building castles in the air.
Roaring and bawling at the small few who are genuinely trying,won't help matters...Keep flogging the best horses and they'll eventually break down.
Sins


PEDIGREE DOGS EXPOSED -AMAZING STATISTICS


Could I mention that the Kennel Club have said ,and this might be of interest to Prospective Buyers of Cavaliers, that the KENNEL CLUB'S MATE SELECT is not only for the Benefit of Dog Breeders.

I am quoting

"It is an Essential Tool for Many Puppy Buyers who want to Ensure that the Person that they are buying a from has made Responsible Decisions .

It Enables Puppy Buyers to go to a Breeder armed with all the Information that they need .

IT IS PUPPY BUYERS CREATING A DEMAND FOR HEALTHY PUPPIES FROM RESPONSIBLE THAT WILL DRIVE UNSCRUPULOUS BREEDERS OUT OF BUSINESS"

So the Kennel Club's MATE SELECT is not just for Cavalier Breeders ,it is just as Important for the Buyers of Cavaliers.

Sins has just mentioned about the FOETAL TISSUE RESEARCH ,I think the most Important Information but so Frightening is the Information that of the 85 Whelps Researched ,all had CM.

This probably can be Linked to the Fact that around 90% Cavaliers are suffering from CM.

I will repeat again, that this is Chacterised with Brains being too Big and Skulls too Small ,this information has been given by Dr C Rushbridge, Neurologist .

This can cause Problems for the Flow of the Cerebro Spinal Fluid, causing Syrinxes leading onto SM.

No the CM/SM Problem will never be Eradicated from our Cavaliers now ,it's too late for that.

Jemima Harrison has recently mentioned that our Cavalier Breed is now in a GENETIC CUL DE SAC.

She has mentioned Cavaliers being OUT CROSSED, but because of the Serious Genetic State the Breed is now in, Fresh Genes have got to come from Somewhere .

Karlin has suggested Cavaliers being used out -with Show Scene Stock, that could be the answer .

Bet

team bella
1st July 2011, 02:02 PM
I've only just seen this thread and to be honest my jaw has just hit the floor !!! I cannot believe that a dog with the extreme conditition that was exposed in that programme went on the produce even more litters :bang::bang:

What is going on in that breeders head???????? To be totally outed on that programme and to continue to breed puppies from that dog has left me speechless, does she have no shame. Is it money? is it that she doesn't care ?? or do the puppy buyers not care about the health of the puppies. Then the kennel club continued to register the pups ?? I think I must have fallen asleep and woke up in stupid land !!. I just don't know what to say......................
:shock:

RodRussell
2nd July 2011, 12:03 AM
I think that 40 litters even from a sire clear of both SM and CM is disgusting.

Bet
2nd July 2011, 10:32 AM
I think that 40 litters even from a sire clear of both SM and CM is disgusting.


PEDIGREE DOGS EXPOSED BLOG -AMAZING STATISTICS


TeamBella,

I see we both live in God's Chosen Country !!!!


I don't know if you are aware that because of the Exposure of the Cavalier mentioned on the PDE TV Program and Margaret's involvement with it , she was hounded out of the UK CKCS CLUB as their Health Representative.

It was the PDE TV Program that was responsible for Making the Cavalier Buying Public aware of the Serious CM/SM Problem Afflicting Cavaliers .

And the PDE Program is called TRASH,was it just because it made the Buyers of Cavaliers aware of CM/SM.

Sad to say this comment has just come from a Newly Appointed CKCS CLUB Member to the CKCS CLUB COMMITTEE!!!!!

Bet

cavluvver
2nd July 2011, 11:15 AM
How can any of you possibly think of using dogs from puppy concentration camps as I call them. Nobody should encourage this torturous trade. Have you not seen the videos and photos all over the internet. Iam shocked that any of you would even cosider dogs from these places to save our breed. Surely it is our duty ,as caring, animal loving humans to help to STOPthis barbaric torture of innocent dogs and pay more attention to campaigning to get some rules laid down for breeders to be UNABLE to breed dogs that carry these bad genes. I AM SO SHOCKED AND VERY SISSAPOINTED. Pease go and look on the PUPPY LOVE site and there are many other sites where you can see the horrors of breeding dogs this way. PLEASE HELP TO STOP THIS NOW!!!!!

Bet
3rd July 2011, 01:00 PM
How can any of you possibly think of using dogs from puppy concentration camps as I call them. Nobody should encourage this torturous trade. Have you not seen the videos and photos all over the internet. Iam shocked that any of you would even cosider dogs from these places to save our breed. Surely it is our duty ,as caring, animal loving humans to help to STOPthis barbaric torture of innocent dogs and pay more attention to campaigning to get some rules laid down for breeders to be UNABLE to breed dogs that carry these bad genes. I AM SO SHOCKED AND VERY SISSAPOINTED. Pease go and look on the PUPPY LOVE site and there are many other sites where you can see the horrors of breeding dogs this way. PLEASE HELP TO STOP THIS NOW!!!!!


PEDIGEE DOGS EXPOSED -AMAZINGS STATISTICS

I thought I would give some Pedigree facts about the Cavalier Breeding in the 1980's

There is much claim about not throwing the Baby Out with the Bath Water so that the Cavalier Gene Pool is not Reduced.

That in the 1980's it is claimed by some Cavalier Breeders to-day ,they were spoiled for Choice for knowing where to go for their Breeding Programs.

So why on earth did some of those Cavalier Breeders do Half-Brother to Half -Sister Matings.

I don't know ,but did some of those CM/SM Genes come to-gether in the 1980's and because of some of the Close In- Breeding that was going on at that time ,that was where maybe the CM/SM started.

We now know that about 90% of Cavaliers have CM.

I am quoting this from a Report from Dr C Rusbridge,Neurologist,


CM is Chacterized between the Brain Being Too Big ,Skull Too Small.

This Blocks up the OPENING from the Skull into the Spinal Cord and Alters the Cerebro Fluid .

As a Result Fluid Filled Cavaties Develope within the Spinal Cord called a SYRINX

This Condition is Called CM

Jemima Harrison has also said in a Blog ,that Cavaliers are at a GENETIC CUL DE SAC.

How can their Genetic Pool get any Smaller .

There has to be Fresh Genes Brought into the Breed from some-where.

Will it be from the Cavalier Breeders who are only Breeding from Cavaliers with no CM/SM Genes.

This could then lead to the the POPULAR SIRE SYNDROME.

What a GENETIC HEALTH MESS OUR CAVALIERS ARE IN TO-DAY.

Bet

Bet
3rd July 2011, 01:12 PM
PEDIGEE DOGS EXPOSED -AMAZINGS STATISTICS

I thought I would give some Pedigree facts about the Cavalier Breeding in the 1980's

There is much claim about not throwing the Baby Out with the Bath Water so that the Cavalier Gene Pool is not Reduced.

That in the 1980's it is claimed by some Cavalier Breeders to-day ,they were spoiled for Choice for knowing where to go for their Breeding Programs.

So why on earth did some of those Cavalier Breeders do Half-Brother to Half -Sister Matings.

I don't know ,but did some of those CM/SM Genes come to-gether in the 1980's and because of some of the Close In- Breeding that was going on at that time ,that was where maybe the CM/SM started.

We now know that about 90% of Cavaliers have CM.

I am quoting this from a Report from Dr C Rusbridge,Neurologist,


CM is Chacterized between the Brain Being Too Big ,Skull Too Small.

This Blocks up the OPENING from the Skull into the Spinal Cord and Alters the Cerebro Fluid .

As a Result Fluid Filled Cavaties Develope within the Spinal Cord called a SYRINX

This Condition is Called CM

Jemima Harrison has also said in a Blog ,that Cavaliers are at a GENETIC CUL DE SAC.

How can their Genetic Pool get any Smaller .

There has to be Fresh Genes Brought into the Breed from some-where.

Will it be from the Cavalier Breeders who are only Breeding from Cavaliers with no CM/SM Genes.

This could then lead to the the POPULAR SIRE SYNDROME.

What a GENETIC HEALTH MESS OUR CAVALIERS ARE IN TO-DAY.

Bet



Just noticed I made a mistake in my Quote from Dr C Rusbridge, Neurologist,

The FLUID FILLED CAVATIES WHICH DEVELOPE WITHIN THE SPINAL CORD CALLED A SYRINX


PLEASE NOTE THIS CONDITION IS CALLED SM

Bet

MurphysMummy
3rd July 2011, 03:16 PM
I think PDE needs to be aired several times again. And be added too.

team bella
5th July 2011, 12:09 AM
PEDIGREE DOGS EXPOSED BLOG -AMAZING STATISTICS


TeamBella,

I see we both live in God's Chosen Country !!!!


I don't know if you are aware that because of the Exposure of the Cavalier mentioned on the PDE TV Program and Margaret's involvement with it , she was hounded out of the UK CKCS CLUB as their Health Representative.

It was the PDE TV Program that was responsible for Making the Cavalier Buying Public aware of the Serious CM/SM Problem Afflicting Cavaliers .

And the PDE Program is called TRASH,was it just because it made the Buyers of Cavaliers aware of CM/SM.

Sad to say this comment has just come from a Newly Appointed CKCS CLUB Member to the CKCS CLUB COMMITTEE!!!!!

Bet


Bet, it was because I saw the PDE programme and made a note of Margarets name that I found her here and this fab site. I had bought Bella at that time and thought I'd done everything correctly by avoiding puppy farms and bad breeders ect ect !!! that was untill I saw that programme. What a shock that was. Luckily Margaret later advised me on buying my 2nd cav, and I got Jessie from a great breeder. Luckily I also found out later that Bella's breeder also had a responsible breeding programme. PDE and this site opened my eyes very wide and I grateful for all the help and advise here. Its just so sad that ignorance, greed and stupidity still rules in the cavalier world. God Bless Margaret, yourself and everyone for keeping the breeding issues a hot topic :thmbsup: