PDA

View Full Version : Everybody Else's Problem



goda
2nd July 2011, 08:29 PM
I want to preface this post by saying that this forum is invaluable and with Luka's recent SM diagnosis I have learned a ton of information in a short amount of time. I think people like Karlin and Pat whose wealth of knowledge is just as valuable as that of my neurologist.

What really bothers me though is when I read these posts discouraging prospective Cavalier King Charles Owners from buying a puppy if it the parents haven't been MRI scanned for SM and MVD scanned for heart issues.  I understand that as responsible pet owners we should further and support the cause of responsible breeding. Really I do.

My question is what about the other Cavaliers, ones that are not bred responsibly? If you love the breed, you love them despite the health consequences. I understand that the public and people in general and I am one of those people by the way. I bought my dogs because of their breed's personality, I didn't want to show my dog. I wanted a companion and someone to love and to love me when I came home.

When we got Luka, he had an overbite, he grew out of it but it didn't stop me from falling in love with him and wanting to give him a happy and safe home. Even now that he is sick and costing us dearly I go without frivolous activities like movies and concerts so I can provide him with a happy home.

So here is my question, every time you discourage someone from buying a Luka because he has not been MRI scanned and MVD scanned, you are saying that the dog should be somebody else's problem.

Is that any mindset to have when we think of this breed? Run the other way and let it be somebody else's problem?

In no way am I saying we shouldn't encourage people to scan their dogs and exhibit responsible breeding protocols but what about those that don't or simply can't afford to do it, or just don't know any better?

I know education is key here, it disheartens me to read some of these posts because even if all the Cavaliers I own get SM, I know I will be there to give them the best life I can because somebody has to. If they are going to be "anyone's" problem it is mine. We can't all run from the problems. They need help too.

Tania
2nd July 2011, 09:52 PM
.


what about those that don't or simply can't afford to do it, or just don't know any better?



If the breeder is health testing there is still no guarantee the dog will be disease free. If the dog needs an emergency caesarean, I am sure the breeder will find the money, provision should also be made for health testing.

Ignorance is not an excuse anymore, there is enough information everywhere now for Breeders to know what they are doing. A number of these people don’t care and will breed just for money or status. How many times have we heard,” my puppy is sick and the breeder won’t reply to my calls”? Yet they continue to breed from the same lines.


We can't all run from the problems. They need help too.



We have to discourage people from buying puppies that are not health tested. It seems cruel but we have to let people know what they are letting themselves in for. Owning one of these dogs with a cruel painful devastating disease is life changing, not only for the dog but also for the owner.
Don’t forget a lot of these sick dogs are not as lucky as Luka, some people won’t be bothered and therefore does not give the dog pain relief, some can’t cope or simply cannot afford treatment costs.

We have to try and stop this cruelty. The Cavaliers are in a mess:(

Blondiemonster
2nd July 2011, 10:04 PM
I understand what you mean. I too find comfort in the fact i can provide for blondie. Thank god she came to me and not someone else. What would that other person have done??? I also knew from the gecko i wasngoing in taking a risk. I did not know of sm at the time. Only mvd. But its my own fault not doing the research. And i wouldnt trade blondie for the world. Would i buy from non scanned parents again? No. Its too stressf to do it over again. If it happens again despite being caref i guess god thought i could handle another. But id rather not. Eventually if breeders that dont scam get stuck with puppies theycannot sell they will scan coz it brings business back..

robbieswan
2nd July 2011, 10:05 PM
I started a similar thread...http://www.cavaliertalk.com/forums/showthread.php?38710-Is-ignorance-on-cavalier-diseases-a-bad-thing I feel the same as you

Soushiruiuma
2nd July 2011, 10:11 PM
It's a good point, and I don't find this forum excludes dogs from any source. But it's important that future cavalier buyers are making breeders do the necessary testing. Every time a puppy of any breed is purchased from a pet store/puppy mill it feeds money into the system that most cruelly produces dogs, and funds the perpetuation of the puppy mill. Every time a careless breeder gets $500 (sometimes much more) for a puppy they think of producing the next litter, and getting more money.

If no one bought puppy mill dogs from today on, the current puppies would end up in rescue, and the mills would shut down, they only produce dogs for the money, if the money dried up they'd disappear.

As advocates for the breed we need to be educating people about buying from responsible breeders who aren't in it to make a quick dollar/pound/euro. Not because the dogs produced by uncaring breeders deserve to suffer, but because if people did stop buying from these sources they'd stop producing puppies irresponsibly.

I would not buy from the breeder I got Guinness from again. He was my first cavalier, and I only had vet heart clearances (not cardiologist) on his parents, and no MRIs. Although at 2 he is healthy, and I hope he is always healthy, I should not have funded his breeder. He is my special, wonderful boy, and I would not trade him for a better bred dog.

goda
2nd July 2011, 10:25 PM
I started a similar thread...http://www.cavaliertalk.com/forums/showthread.php?38710-Is-ignorance-on-cavalier-diseases-a-bad-thing I feel the same as you

I haven't checked older posts because I am in school and cavalier talk is a 20 min indulgence i allow myself here and there.

Karen and Ruby
2nd July 2011, 10:51 PM
\If breeders can't afford to scan then they shouldn't breed- FULL STOP!


There is too much information out there to play dumb these days:mad:


And if the pet owners didn't keep accepting sick dogs then they wouldn't breed them as they would have no where to go- some times you have to be cruel to be kind and this is one of those circumstnaces

goda
2nd July 2011, 11:01 PM
\If breeders can't afford to scan then they shouldn't breed- FULL STOP!


There is too much information out there to play dumb these days:mad:


And if the pet owners didn't keep accepting sick dogs then they wouldn't breed them as they would have no where to go- some times you have to be cruel to be kind and this is one of those circumstnaces

Wow. Seriously, just wow. That's the kind of mentality Hitler had towards Jews, gays, minorities, people with disabilities.

So if I can't afford to send my child to college I shouldn't have children? Should people with AIDS be put down in order to get rid of the disease? It's just us being kind?

And obviously there isn't too much information out there because some of us did not have it and I bought a book on Cavaliers before I bought Luka and no where does it list SM as disease that is predominant in the breed.

Karen and Ruby
2nd July 2011, 11:13 PM
Wow. Seriously, just wow. That's the kind of mentality Hitler had towards Jews, gays, minorities, people with disabilities.

So if I can't afford to send my child to college I shouldn't have children? Should people with AIDS be put down in order to get rid of the disease? It's just us being kind?

And obviously there isn't too much information out there because some of us did not have it and I bought a book on Cavaliers before I bought Luka and no where does it list SM as disease that is predominant in the breed.



I wont argue with you but to compare my 'opinion' to that of Hitler is pretty rude dont you think!

I bought the books and did the reaserch and yes 5 years ago when I got Ruby there wasn't much available about SM to the average Joe public but right now in 2011 when the Kennel Clucb have come up against all this there is no reason for not following protocol.
They have the information, but most choose not to take any notice.
Getting a Cavalier from a breeder whom isn;t doing everything they can to help this breed is no better than buying a puppy from a pet shop and we all know where pet shop puppies come from!


The only way this breed stands a chance is for everyone to be on the same page and agree with the research and do their very best and take responsiblity because Guess what? the way things are at the momment will result in one thing only and that is ... No Cavaliers left!

jessie22
2nd July 2011, 11:22 PM
I am all for stopping puppymills and getting our Cavalier friends healthy and hopefully less damaged someday. But, until that happens, I'll continue to only rescue/adopt sickly, old, diseased Cavaliers.
I hope there are homes and hearts out there for our less fortunate. :)
I have 2 cavvies, Ruby who is 2 and has SM (from a mill) and my newly rescued mill-mama, Hattie. Hattie is 7ish, has a grade 4 murmur, was 32lbs when I got her (she is 25 today!) and also half of her teeth of rotten. She is the best dog I've ever met. What a loving, grateful soul!!! Please, anyone, rescue!!! It's a beautiful thing. I know puppies are great, but there's a lot of great dogs out there...
That's my tangent, sorry. Ok, yes, don't buy from a petstore. Don't suport mills!!! But, love a dog who needs you no matter where they come from. If we want more people to know how bad it really is to support "bad breeding", it looks like we need to do more to educate and stop the problem!!! :) We can all do our part to save our cavvies.


-- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums (http://developer.palm.com/appredirect/?packageid=com.newnessdevelopments.forums)

Tania
2nd July 2011, 11:22 PM
Wow.And obviously there isn't too much information out there because some of us did not have it and I bought a book on Cavaliers before I bought Luka and no where does it list SM as disease that is predominant in the breed.

There is plenty of information on the web now. When you got Luka and I got Molly there was not! We have to try and guide people in the right direction and people that get caught like us, we are here to help them. My friend has a daughter who suffers from CM, she has had decompression surgery but still has dreadful episodes, sometimes screaming with pain and it makes you want to cry listening to her. I always remember her saying "why would people breed dogs with this disease" .

The breeder who bred Molly is still churning out sick puppies, despite complaints to the KC, local authority and other organisations, I have encountered five owners with dreafully sick dogs closely related. On average she charges £600 for each puppy! This is deliberate cruelty!:mad:

Breeding dogs into a life of pain has to stop, it cannot be justified at all? We need to help raise awareness so people don't get caught. Karen is right, if you cannot afford to breed dogs so they live a healthy happy life, they should not be bred at all.

goda
2nd July 2011, 11:28 PM
I wont argue with you but to compare my 'opinion' to that of Hitler is pretty rude dont you think!

I bought the books and did the reaserch and yes 5 years ago when I got Ruby there wasn't much available about SM to the average Joe public but right now in 2011 when the Kennel Clucb have come up against all this there is no reason for not following protocol.
They have the information, but most choose not to take any notice.
Getting a Cavalier from a breeder whom isn;t doing everything they can to help this breed is no better than buying a puppy from a pet shop and we all know where pet shop puppies come from!


The only way this breed stands a chance is for everyone to be on the same page and agree with the research and do their very best and take responsiblity because Guess what? the way things are at the momment will result in one thing only and that is ... No Cavaliers left!

No, I don't think it's rude, I think it's a correct description of your mentality. Newsflash, genetics are the only way to get SM. Hormonal deficiencies, dietary deficiencies can all contribute to a malformed cranium and spinal cord, as well as injury. You can MRI scan a parent to high heaven it's genetics, there are carrier genes. It's not a disease you can breed out of dogs.

Not every pet comes from a pet shop, mine came from what was a pretty reputable breeder and he still got sick. So while I won't be returning to this breeder for other reasons as well; your what I think is an elitist and flippant attitude towards Joe Public and effectively myself is hurtful on many levels.

There are vets that don't know about this disease so are they just as awful as us Joe Public?

These dogs that already exists should then just be somebody else's problem, they should be put down? I'm sorry if you feel my description of your opinion is rude but I find your opinion a little heartless and shocking.

RodRussell
2nd July 2011, 11:29 PM
\If breeders can't afford to scan then they shouldn't breed- FULL STOP!

There is too much information out there to play dumb these days:mad:

And if the pet owners didn't keep accepting sick dogs then they wouldn't breed them as they would have no where to go- some times you have to be cruel to be kind and this is one of those circumstnaces

That about sums up my opinion. Education is key. Both the breeders and buyers should be educating themselves about the genetic health issues of the breed, and then the breeders should be following the testing and breeding protocols.

goda
2nd July 2011, 11:31 PM
I am all for stopping puppymills and getting our Cavalier friends healthy and hopefully less damaged someday. But, until that happens, I'll continue to only rescue/adopt sickly, old, diseased Cavaliers.
I hope there are homes and hearts out there for our less fortunate. :)
I have 2 cavvies, Ruby who is 2 and has SM (from a mill) and my newly rescued mill-mama, Hattie. Hattie is 7ish, has a grade 4 murmur, was 32lbs when I got her (she is 25 today!) and also half of her teeth of rotten. She is the best dog I've ever met. What a loving, grateful soul!!! Please, anyone, rescue!!! It's a beautiful thing. I know puppies are great, but there's a lot of great dogs out there...
That's my tangent, sorry. Ok, yes, don't buy from a petstore. Don't suport mills!!! But, love a dog who needs you no matter where they come from. If we want more people to know how bad it really is to support "bad breeding", it looks like we need to do more to educate and stop the problem!!! :) We can all do our part to save our cavvies.


-- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums (http://developer.palm.com/appredirect/?packageid=com.newnessdevelopments.forums)


I think it's great you adopt "Somebody Else's Problem". I would be sad if there weren't people like you around.

goda
2nd July 2011, 11:32 PM
That about sums up my opinion. Education is key. Both the breeders and buyers should be educating themselves about the genetic health issues of the breed, and then the breeders should be following the testing and breeding protocols.

It's genetics, you can't breed the problems out. I think it's misleading for people to adopt that position.

RodRussell
2nd July 2011, 11:34 PM
Wow. Seriously, just wow. That's the kind of mentality Hitler had towards Jews, gays, minorities, people with disabilities.

So if I can't afford to send my child to college I shouldn't have children? Should people with AIDS be put down in order to get rid of the disease? It's just us being kind?

And obviously there isn't too much information out there because some of us did not have it and I bought a book on Cavaliers before I bought Luka and no where does it list SM as disease that is predominant in the breed.

Goda, if you are in school, it's a good thing because you have a lot to learn about Hitler. And your extrapolations are a bit far-fetched.

I don't know when you got Luka, but http://cavalierhealth.org has had in depth information about SM for nearly a decade now. So, while you are there, take a course in word-searching on the Internet.

Karlin
2nd July 2011, 11:34 PM
I think there's a false basis of argument here.

It isn't as if there are huge stacks of cavalier puppies without homes where the failure to buy one single dog from a crap breeder will mean a horrible life for that dog. First off, someone will always buy available puppies, and the breeders will lower the prices til someone pays for the dogs they breed. That is why there are breeders offering cheap cavaliers. It is very cheap if you do no health testing, and your parent dogs come from poor sources. Hence there are many cheap cavaliers in want ads and online.

It is a false justification to argue 'if I do not take these dogs and buy them, then they will have no homes and may go somewhere that someone won't care for them'. It is wonderful that any dog, especially one with a long term serious illness, ends up with a loving home ready to do whatever it can. But anyone else could have given such a home, too. In my experience most people try to do their best by their dogs.

If people really want to make a difference to a single dog in need of a great home, there are plenty of rescue cavaliers needing a second chance. Irish Cav Rescue and others in Ireland have a couple right now. So does Lucky Star and club rescue in the US, and breed rescue and shelters in the UK. Knowingly supporting cruel breeding situations such as puppy farms or breeders who cannot be bothered to breed with health as a focus -- places us as individuals in a situation where we are entirely complicit in what they are doing. I do think an argument can be made to buy out breeding cavaliers at auction (though this is a difficult and controversial issue) because those are the dogs that truly suffer. Buying their puppies bred in such situations just keeps those breeding dogs in a lifetime hellhole of the mills and again, the purchase directly supports that system and enables it to continue.

There are better decisions and more effective actions any of us can take that will impact the lives of thousands of individual dogs and the breed as a whole.
This is absolutely true:


If no one bought puppy mill dogs from today on, the current puppies would end up in rescue, and the mills would shut down, they only produce dogs for the money, if the money dried up they'd disappear.

Likewise if, from today on, not one single puppy buyer would buy a puppy from unscanned, unhealth-tested or improperly tested parents, every breeder in this breed would either 1) sell the remainder, stop breeding, and get out of cavaliers, or 2) start doing the health tests, whether they want to or not. It is no different than any other market, If people refuse to buy what is on offer and have explicit expectations, then someone will supply what the market wants. It is simple economics.

But sadly there will not be any shortage of all nice people who will unknowingly, or knowingly but making excuses, buy the puppy shop, puppy farm/mill puppies or the puppies from the backyard breeder down the street or on the internet, or the ones from the breeders who do no health testing or very little. Hell will freeze over before there is a situation where there will not be buyers for cavalier puppies from the worst possible sources. The worst thing any of us can do who know how bad the situation is now for the breed therefore is to give those breeders money when the small number of health testing breeders so badly need support to stay in the breed. They are the best and only chance for a cavalier future. If you buy elsewhere, that is a purchase lost to a great breeder, an important statement of belief and financial support that lets all breeders know there is support and demand for properly bred cavaliers.

Personally I don't think things will ever change (and that therefore, no one need argue or worry here there will be puppies left homeless) unless there is legislation requiring health testing, or alternatively (or also) legislation giving puppy buyers the kind of consumer protection you would get with other consumer purchases, that would make all breeders (including the BYB and puppy farmer) financially liable to pay healthcare costs if they produced a puppy with a genetic illness IF they failed to test the parents and therefore ensure that at least they knew their dogs had a clean bill of health and they followed breeding protocols at the time of breeding. Fortunately proposals along these lines are being actively considered in the UK and may be imposed -- there's a lot of scrutiny right now on the kennel Club and cavalier breeders in particular to see if they will take responsible decisions for the breed or continue to pretend that either little is wrong or that every health effort is pointless. Not even the UK Club national committee will take a stand for health, lead by example and publicly commit to its own club's recommendations for best breeding practice.

RodRussell
2nd July 2011, 11:35 PM
It's genetics, you can't breed the problems out. I think it's misleading for people to adopt that position.

Goda, you are in the wrong school, if that is what you are being taught.

goda
2nd July 2011, 11:40 PM
Goda, you are in the wrong school, if that is what you are being taught.

Really I am not, you can scan parents for SM and they can be perfectly healthy and they can still produce an SM offspring. So unless you DNA test every dog you breed for the SM gene and the carrier genes, and know for certain it doesn't skip generations then you don't seem to understand how genetics work.

Most importantly not all SM is a result of genetics.

I really hope this type of mentality only applies to your dog breeding.

Karen and Ruby
2nd July 2011, 11:43 PM
No, I don't think it's rude, I think it's a correct description of your mentality. Newsflash, genetics are the only way to get SM. Hormonal deficiencies, dietary deficiencies can all contribute to a malformed cranium and spinal cord, as well as injury. You can MRI scan a parent to high heaven it's genetics, there are carrier genes. It's not a disease you can breed out of dogs.

Not every pet comes from a pet shop, mine came from what was a pretty reputable breeder and he still got sick. So while I won't be returning to this breeder for other reasons as well; your what I think is an elitist and flippant attitude towards Joe Public and effectively myself is hurtful on many levels.

There are vets that don't know about this disease so are they just as awful as us Joe Public?

These dogs that already exists should then just be somebody else's problem, they should be put down? I'm sorry if you feel my description of your opinion is rude but I find your opinion a little heartless and shocking.




Yes I know that not every Cav comes from a Pet store, mine too came from a 'good' breeder at the time- her parents were both over the age of 4 and had clear hearts and eyes and all the rest and too this day SM is the only problem that she has. But 5 years ago I didnt know what it is and the first I read about it was in a Supplement in Dogs today magazine and there was a story about Carol Fowlers dog Rosie (I think but it was a few years back now) and I sat and cried because at that momment I knew she had it.

And at that momment I told myself that I wouldnt buy another puppy until everything was being done to eradicate the problem.
And since then I rescued my little man Charlie whom at 9 months of age was diagnosed with a grade 6 heart murmur and a birth defect called Mitral Vavle Displasia. He isnt covered under insurace and he costs me a small fortune but never the less I love him and will care for him until his last day.

And call me heart less all you like BUT I do every thing I can to raise money for Ruperts Fund- last year raising over £600 doing a sponsered run and this year I am arraging the production of the Ruperts Fund receipes books to be sold and in the process of writing another book to be sold along side it- I take leafelts and wear my Ruperts Fund T Shirt to every Agiity and Obedience show I go to and tell every one who is willing to listen every thing I can about this disease.

So if that makes me heartless then so be it but I see myself more as being reaslistic

goda
2nd July 2011, 11:45 PM
"Personally I don't think things will ever change (and that therefore, no one need argue or worry here there will be puppies left homeless) unless there is legislation requiring health testing, or alternatively (or also) legislation giving puppy buyers the kind of consumer protection you would get with other consumer purchases, that would make all breeders (including the BYB and puppy farmer) financially liable to pay healthcare costs if they produced a puppy with a genetic illness IF they failed to test the parents and therefore ensure that at least they knew their dogs had a clean bill of health and they followed breeding protocols at the time of breeding. Fortunately proposals along these lines are being actively considered in the UK and may be imposed -- there's a lot of scrutiny right now on the kennel Club and cavalier breeders in particular to see if they will take responsible decisions for the breed or continue to pretend that either little is wrong or that every health effort is pointless. Not even the UK Club national committee will take a stand for health, lead by example and publicly commit to its own club's recommendations for best breeding practice."

While I don't always agree with you, I can get on board with this. Breeders who choose to breed knowing their lines are affected ought to bear some responsibility.

Karlin
2nd July 2011, 11:55 PM
It's genetics, you can't breed the problems out. I think it's misleading for people to adopt that position.

What? Have you studied genetics? Because if 'it's genetics', then of course it can be bred out -- the same way a nicely shaped head can be bred in.

Clare Rusbridge:


Why MRI screen?
To determine if the dog has syringomyelia. Early estimates of the heritability of syringomyelia suggest that it is high and consequently it should be possible to select against dogs with syringomyelia - i.e. removing dogs with syringomyelia from the breeding program will lessen the chance of syringomyelia in the offspring.


ie: SM has a genetic basis, it is highly heritable; removing dogs with SM from breeding problems lowers the chance of SM; it is possible to breed away from the condition IF you test, over time. All research so far shows this CAN be minimised and eventually, bred out -- for a start, as with MVD, by following protocols and proper testing you can select for late onset/lower severity. There is good evidence from the Dutch breeders and from griffon breeders that this is the case.

I think maybe it would help to read more of Clare's Rusbridge's as well as Rod's site. Both list ongoing research, and explain what work is being done WITH support from geneticists (including one of the leading genetics researchers worldwide in finding the genetic basis for diseases). EFS and Curly Coat Syndrome also have a genetic basis -- and you can definitely now test and breed away from both those conditions. Even without a genetic test, breeders can breed away from MVD and SM just as they can breed for complex inherited traits they desire in their show dogs.

Please also go reread the Getting Started section on what is appropriate to post. Insulting other board members someone disagrees with is the basis for being removed from the board. I haven't had to do that in a long time and especially would not wish to do this with someone getting support from members because they have an ill dog -- but I will do it immediately if I see one more comment like the Hitler comment to another board member.

I will also close this thread if it cannot remain on topic.

cavluvver
2nd July 2011, 11:56 PM
Oh my God thankyou for bringing back my faith in mankind. I posted earlier today on the 'PEDIGREE DOGS EXPOSED thread as I was shocked that someone suggested that we may need to use puppy farm pups to breed sm out of the breed. I couldnt believe that anyone on this site would even dream of such a thing. Have they not looked at the pictures and videos on the many sites that are fighting to stop this barbaric trade? We bought our gorgeous Rossi from a kennels where we live because we were ignorant an uneducated about sm and also the puppy farm trade. Rossi has now been diagnosed with sm at 6 years of age. We think he came from a puppy farm in Wales as his breeder has a welsh name and there are dogs on his pedigree, which I know now counts for nothing, with welsh names and I NOW KNOW THAT THE HIGHEST CONCENTRATION OF PUPPY FARMS ARE IN WALES. I too am glad that we bought Rossi and that he is being well loved and looked after, but I would never buy a dog from a kennels wiyh multiple breeds for sale ever again , or from a pet shop. It is better to save thousands of dogs than to save one. The only way to stop this torture of dogs is to stop buying their puppies. Only this will close the puppy farms for ever. PLEASE FORCE YOURSELVES TO LOOK AT THE VIDEOS AND PICTURES ON THE ANTI PUPPY FARM SITES SUCH AS 'PUPPY LOVE' AND MAKE YOUR OWN MINDS UP. iT TOOK A LOT FOR ME TO DO IT. Now I am glad I did because now my eyes are open to the suffering of these animals and I am determined to do something about it.

Kate H
2nd July 2011, 11:56 PM
Goda wrote: It's genetics, you can't breed the problems out.

Actually, you can. A few years ago, Irish Setters developed a hereditary genetic condition called Night Blindness (I can't remember the proper name for it). It was very widespread in the breed. Today, virtually no Irish Setter suffers from Night Blindness. Why? Because the Irish Setter breeders set themselves the task of breeding away from the disease and were absolutely dedicated about not using affected animals for breeding and insisting that offspring suffering from the disease were not bred from. It can be done - which is why it is frustrating when some Cavalier breeders can't even be bothered to try. And why those who spend a lot of time and money trying to breed away from SM deserve our support.

There are also some promising results in Cavaliers in Holland and Griffons in Australia, where breeders have followed the advice of the researchers and have now bred several generations of dogs who are so far clear of SM. (Sorry Karlin, wrote this before I read your post!)

Kate, Oliver and Aled

sins
3rd July 2011, 12:03 AM
My question is what about the other Cavaliers, ones that are not bred responsibly? If you love the breed, you love them despite the health consequences.

I love them,I just won't pay a cent to an irresponsible breeder.I work too hard for my money to see it squandered to feed someone's greed.


That's the kind of mentality Hitler had towards Jews, gays, minorities, people with disabilities.
And what about the mentality of the breeders who keep their dogs in small crates and pens in the barn,ankle deep in faeces?
Who take out their oldies out of the barn and the first time they see daylight is moments before they're shot in the back of the head or clubbed with an iron bar..or do their own c sections without anaesthetic?
How do you feel about supporting this industry?
Every time you buy a puppy from an unknown source you are indirectly supporting these breeders and prolonging the ordeal for the dogs in those hellholes.
Remember,that lovely mum and litter of puppies you see in someone's front room may have been put there by a puppy farmer,and the householder is telling you that they bred the litter themselves.
Buying from show breeders who refuse to test is stupid as well.Why would you do it if you had a choice?
Yes,the puppies may need our love,but I have one who needs a lot more than love to keep her going.She needs gabapentin,frusemide and Rimadyl.
The grim reality is that we can't keep her going forever and no amount of love can alter that fact.
I would rather hand over my money to a breeder who invests it back into his/her dogs.Who invests in their care and nutrition,in their physical and psychological wellbeing.A breeder who thinks enough of the people who buy their puppies,that they try to ensure that the pet they sell is as fit and healthy and it's parents screened for the common inherited illnesses.I'd prefer to show my love for the breed by dealing with a breeder who cares what happens to the puppy and who's interested in it's progress and welfare.
If people who know the facts still want to gamble on the life of their canine family member,then by all means go ahead.
Sins

Margaret C
3rd July 2011, 12:03 AM
What really bothers me though is when I read these posts discouraging prospective Cavalier King Charles Owners from buying a puppy if it the parents haven't been MRI scanned for SM and MVD scanned for heart issues.  I understand that as responsible pet owners we should further and support the cause of responsible breeding. Really I do..

But you look at Luka and feel disloyal because if you had supported responsible breeding you would not have bought him?



My question is what about the other Cavaliers, ones that are not bred responsibly? If you love the breed, you love them despite the health consequences. I understand that the public and people in general and I am one of those people by the way. I bought my dogs because of their breed's personality, I didn't want to show my dog. I wanted a companion and someone to love and to love me when I came home. .

I have loved the breed for thirty five years. I love them enough not to stand by and watch painful conditions spread further through the breed.
Most cavaliers, even from show bred litters end up being sold as pets. However they are bred, do not all puppies deserve the best possible chance of a long healthy pain free life?


When we got Luka, he had an overbite, he grew out of it but it didn't stop me from falling in love with him and wanting to give him a happy and safe home. Even now that he is sick and costing us dearly I go without frivolous activities like movies and concerts so I can provide him with a happy home.

So here is my question, every time you discourage someone from buying a Luka because he has not been MRI scanned and MVD scanned, you are saying that the dog should be somebody else's problem..

You may be willing to go without fun things to care for a sick dog but many people would not be willing or able to do so. What happens to that carelessly bred dog then?
If people continue to knowingly buy from bad breeders they perpetuate the misery.



Is that any mindset to have when we think of this breed? Run the other way and let it be somebody else's problem?.

Nobody is running the other way, but if breeders breed sick dogs it is actually their problem. If they cannot sell them they will stop breeding.



In no way am I saying we shouldn't encourage people to scan their dogs and exhibit responsible breeding protocols but what about those that don't or simply can't afford to do it, or just don't know any better?.

Nobody has a God given right to breed dogs. If you don't breed responsibly or cannot afford to do it correctly then nobody should reward you by putting money in your pocket.
Someone will know better when they are asked for certificates they cannot produce and the buyer walks away.



I know education is key here, it disheartens me to read some of these posts because even if all the Cavaliers I own get SM, I know I will be there to give them the best life I can because somebody has to. If they are going to be "anyone's" problem it is mine. We can't all run from the problems. They need help too.

We all give our SM cavaliers the best life we can, nobody here is suggesting that owners of sick cavaliers should shuffle the problem off to someone else.

I have spent years watching my SM dogs suffer. I love them but I feel they and I were robbed of years of carefree enjoyment we should have had together.

I have listened to owners crying on the phone because they have put their screaming puppy to sleep. Three year old affected cavaliers, beloved family pets, have been donated to the tissue collection.
As far as I am concerned my loyalty to my SM dogs involves trying to make sure no other dog suffers as they have done.

Nobody blames a pet owner for buying without checking on health clearances when they do not know, but to buy knowing that the breeder has not bothered means that you make it worthwhile for irresponsible breeders to cut corners and produce increasing numbers of SM affected dogs like Luka.

Why not reward the breeders that do the right things by buying from them?

goda
3rd July 2011, 12:04 AM
What are you talking about? Have you studied genetics? If 'it's genetics', then of COURSE it can be bred out -- the same way a nicely shaped head can be bred in.

All research so far shows this CAN be minimised and eventually, bred out -- for a start, as with MVD, by follwoing protocols and proper testing you can select for late onset/lower severity. There is good evidence from the Dutch breeders and from griffon breeders that this is the case.

I think maybe it would help to read more of Clare's Rusbridge's as well as Rod's site. Both list ongoing research, and explain what work is being done WITH support from geneticists (including one of the leading genetics researchers worldwide in finding the genetic basis for diseases). EFS and Curly Coat Sydorme also have a genetic basis -- and you can definitely now test and breed away from both those conditions. Even without a genetic test, breeders can breed away from MVD and SM just as they can breed for complex inherited traits they desire in their show dogs.

Please also go reread the Getting Started section on w hat is appropriate to post. Insulting other board members someone disagrees with is the basis for being removed from the board. I haven't had to do that in a long, long time and especially would not wish to do this with someone getting much support from members because they have an ill dog -- but I will do it if I see one more comment like the Hitler comment to another board member.

I will aslo close this thread if it cannot remain on topic.

I am going to spare you that need, this mentality of breeding the perfect healthy dogs is no different than those who. You know never mind.

Not all SM is a result of genetics.

Karlin
3rd July 2011, 12:14 AM
Not all SM is a result of genetics.

No, there is a tiny, tiny proportion that comes from impact injuries. That form in dogs is so rare that most vets and neurologist never will see such a case. Ask your neurologist how many impact-induced cases of SM she has seen. There is also a spinal bifida type in some breeds like Ridgebacks, but that is clearly genetic as well. SM in cavaliers is widespread, the current genetics research already clearly shows high heritability, and I do not know anyone who seriously believes SM in cavaliers is caused only by some outside factor.

You have really not absorbed much here I guess. You seem to be arguing that breeders should not aim for the best health possible because it discriminates against dogs that are poorly bred and cheaper to buy -- logic I cannot understand. Or to put it another way -- you seem to be seeking an excuse for the fact that you clearly bought two puppies from a very poor breeder at a cheap price precisely because they were not doing any significant health testing -- the prices you paid are bargain basement for cavaliers, more typical of people like the Washington-based Claire Simmons, convicted of fraud and charged many times with animal cruelty.

No one here would ever say anyone shouldn't love any dog, of any sort, pure or mix, rescue or from a great breeder -- but supporting poor breeders is not 'discrimination' :sl*p: -- buying from them is cruel to every breeding dog they own, the puppies they produce and the future of the entire breed (and Luka, for that matter, who might not have been born with this condition had the breeder scanned the parents). No breeder will ever be able to guarantee health but a lot more can be done by breeders and puppy buyers like you and all here to ensure a better standard of health.

But as you seem to wish to be removed from the board, I have done so. Best of luck with Luka.

Karen and Ruby
3rd July 2011, 12:19 AM
I am going to spare you that need, this mentality of breeding the perfect healthy dogs is no different than those who. You know never mind.

Not all SM is a result of genetics.




This mentality is of breeding not 'the perfectly healthy' dog but maybe just a future free from pain?

I for one wouldn't bewith out Ruby as she has taught me a lot and got me involved in the issues around SM but really, really should she have to suffer for the rest of her life just so I can increase my knowledge about something?

And what wrong with wanting a healthy dog?

RodRussell
3rd July 2011, 12:26 AM
... I really hope this type of mentality only applies to your dog breeding.

At least I have a mentality.

Blondiemonster
3rd July 2011, 12:26 AM
I recently got an email from a breeder who I forgot put myself on the waiting list for another cav about 6 months before I found out about Blondies SM.
She wanted to know if i still was interested in getting a pup because I was now on top of the list.
I asked her if she scanned. She said "if i would have to scan all my dogs for SM I would be broke". She then went on about how ALL the pups she has bred in the last 8 years are still alive. She said SM is just not in her lines. She has several moms and dads that are over 6 so I said to her "broke" comment
that there is Ruperts FUnd that will fund her scans and that it would help the breed if her cavs are truly that healthy. Ofcourse she didn't answer to that, and completely ignored that suggestion. So yes, breeders ARE playing dumb and I would never buy a puppy from her.

RodRussell
3rd July 2011, 12:28 AM
I recently got an email from a breeder who I forgot put myself on the waiting list for another cav about 6 months before I found out about Blondies SM.
She wanted to know if i still was interested in getting a pup because I was now on top of the list.
I asked her if she scanned. She said "if i would have to scan all my dogs for SM I would be broke". She then went on about how ALL the pups she has bred in the last 8 years are still alive. She said SM is just not in her lines. She has several moms and dads that are over 6 so I said to her "broke" comment
that there is Ruperts FUnd that will fund her scans and that it would help the breed if her cavs are truly that healthy. Ofcourse she didn't answer to that, and completely ignored that suggestion. So yes, breeders ARE playing dumb and I would never buy a puppy from her.

Good job!

Karen and Ruby
3rd July 2011, 12:38 AM
But as you seem to wish to be removed from the board, I have done so. Best of luck with Luka.[/QUOTE]


So frustrating sometimes :bang:

Blondiemonster
3rd July 2011, 12:39 AM
Good job!

I mean seriously Ron, you tell a breeder that the scan would be free and they STILL won't scan? Now that is just sketchy.

cavluvver
3rd July 2011, 12:41 AM
Oh Karlin you did the right thing removing that person from the board. I too feel sorry for all the pups bred by uncaring, irresponsible breeders, including my own precious Rossi, but we really do have to open our eyes and make a stand and actually do something to stop all the suffering. THE ONE AND ONLY POSITIVE THING THAT HAS COME OUT OF MY POOR ROSSI'S SUFFERING IS THE FACT THAT I AM NOW BETTER EDUCATED AND AM GOING TO BE MUCH MORE PROACTIVE IN THE FIGHT TO GET BETTER BREEDING LAWS AND TO STOP PUPPY FARMING !!

Karlin
3rd July 2011, 12:56 AM
The irony is that dog shows came directly out of the era of eugenics that the Nazis admired -- with dogs, setting breed standards and selecting for perfect VISUAL qualities while health has been slowly compromised. Dogs no longer fit for their original purpose have been created. Selecting for healthy dogs, by contrast, selects for life. For joy.

Breeding for health as a priority is hardly eugenics. :sl*p: It's the opposite of eugenics. Some people have little understanding of history. Or logic. :rolleyes:

I also consider it an unforgiveable insult that anyone would claim the board in any way discriminates against any type of 'non-perfect' cavalier (especially when we have always had a major focus on rescue work here!).

Until this week, when Lucy passed away, I had five cavaliers. Two are rescues, one from the pound and one from a puppy farm -- hardly evidence of discrimination on behalf of perfectly bred healthy dogs as the only option. :confused:. Three have SM. Two have/had MVD. Three have early onset deafness or hearing problems; in two cases definitely not related to PSOM. Three also have PSOM. That's a lot of significant breed health problems amongst just five dogs, only one of which I originally decided to hang on to because I suspected possible SM (Lily).

Every one of those dogs deserves better health. One came from a great breeder (and was a rare SM clear dog when scanned at 9) but the endemic problems are always there and will take time to work away from (hence Lucy got dealt the hand of MVD, which is unusual to that degree in her line). Health focused breeders are moving us in the direction of better health; the evidence is already there. Our choice of where to purchase a dog therefore makes all the difference. Perhaps in the end the ONLY difference, as breeders need buyers or they won't breed; gone are the days of large kennels attached to aristocrats with lots of money, able to breed and hang on to what they bred.

Every one of you is the potential answer to this breed's problems, depending on the breeders you support. Go for a rescue if people don't want to work with a breeder.

sunshinekisses
3rd July 2011, 12:58 AM
:( This whole thread got my blood boiling. Being involved in rescue work for almost ten years, it really irks me when someone complains the unhealthy poorly bred pups need homes too and so we should all feel okay about purchasing from any so called breeder. What the general public doesn't understand is once the byb breeder cannot sell their pups anymore they will stop breeding. A good breeder will breed a litter first for themself and sell the other pups to good homes. Though here in the U.S. cavaliers are still fairly rare in animal rescue shelters, we do have some waiting for homes. This is a much better option than buying from a breeder that is only breeding for money, or love of having pups. A breeder that does full health testing will not be selling pups for 400-600, as I think I remember Goda as quoting her price for her pups, though Goda claimed her pups came from a reputable breeder I highly doubt that!

RodRussell
3rd July 2011, 01:00 AM
The irony is that dog shows came directly out of the era of eugenics that the Nazis admired -- with dogs, setting breed standards and selecting for perfect VISUAL qualities while health has been slowly compromised. Dogs no longer fit for their original purpose have been created.

Breeding for health as a priority is hardly eugenics. :sl*p: Some people have little understanding of history. ...

All quite true. The Nazis even had a "kennel" of human volunteers who met the appearance standards of the master race. They bred these volunteers for several years.

RodRussell
3rd July 2011, 01:03 AM
... though Goda claimed her pups came from a reputable breeder I highly doubt that!

Oh, she(?) probably did. Ask Blondies' Mom about reputable breeders. Anybody can call themselves "reputable" in the purebred world, and many do.

Karen and Ruby
3rd July 2011, 01:04 AM
All quite true. The Nazis even had a "kennel" of human volunteers who met the appearance standards of the master race. They bred these volunteers for several years.

I remember when I was studying my first year in Dog Behaviour and Care watching a seminar on the Eugenics of Dog Showing and all about the Victorians who started it. I cant remember enough about it to start quoting stuff so thank you for bringing up that point.

Hitler I say........ honestly!

Karlin
3rd July 2011, 01:07 AM
The introduction of a Hitler comparison to a board discussion is a well known phenomenon called Godwin's Law :cool::

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

GraciesMom
3rd July 2011, 01:09 AM
I think that sometimes people whose Cavaliers are newly diagnosed or clearly suffering are speaking from a very painful place. There is so much emotion around this issue generally because we sometimes feel helpless or unsure how to make this better. I too feel badly for the Cavaliers produced by those who know better...they deserve better and did not ask for their lot in life. But, buying directly from these breders rewards their irresponsibility. Just no way around that sad reality, even though I have had moments of trying to rationalize otherwise. It is one thing to help a rescue dog and another entirely to support breeders that you know may be questionable.I do think in the heat of these discussions painful things are said...and hope people will consider that point. I might say things I regret in the heat of the moment. Take a breather.....

Karen and Ruby
3rd July 2011, 01:15 AM
I think that sometimes people whose Cavaliers are newly diagnosed or clearly suffering are speaking from a very painful place. There is so much emotion around this issue generally because we sometimes feel helpless or unsure how to make this better. I too feel badly for the Cavaliers produced by those who know better...they deserve better and did not ask for their lot in life. But, buying directly from these breders rewards their irresponsibility. Just no way around that sad reality, even though I have had moments of trying to rationalize otherwise. It is one thing to help a rescue dog and another entirely to support breeders that you know may be questionable.I do think in the heat of these discussions painful things are said...and hope people will consider that point. I might say things I regret in the heat of the moment. Take a breather.....


I couldn't agree more Debra- I dont hold a grudge anyways.


i had a read through that link Karlin- made me chuckle a little :) I have been called many a name in my time but thats a new one ;)

gamefanz
3rd July 2011, 01:21 AM
I do agree with you there. I know if Toby ever gets diagnosed I will be a basket case as I am already jumpy. I cannot imagine the roller coaster ride that those with Cavaliers facing this are going through. I felt as though Goda might not be having a great day and just really needed to vent, Although most don't agree with the vent. I for one am sad to see Goda go especially since Goda was in my State and not too far from me. I was hoping to meet once Toby was old enough:(
Becky



I think that sometimes people whose Cavaliers are newly diagnosed or clearly suffering are speaking from a very painful place. There is so much emotion around this issue generally because we sometimes feel helpless or unsure how to make this better. I too feel badly for the Cavaliers produced by those who know better...they deserve better and did not ask for their lot in life. But, buying directly from these breders rewards their irresponsibility. Just no way around that sad reality, even though I have had moments of trying to rationalize otherwise. It is one thing to help a rescue dog and another entirely to support breeders that you know may be questionable.I do think in the heat of these discussions painful things are said...and hope people will consider that point. I might say things I regret in the heat of the moment. Take a breather.....

Reptigirl
3rd July 2011, 01:23 AM
Blood Boiling is an understatement .... I decided to keep my mouth shut then say something I might regret.

One thing I have to point out... Goda's Luke has only just been diagnosed with SM.... I could be wrong but isn't he young? 3 or 4? Give it a year or two... as she watches him slowly go down hill. I presume her opinion may change... at least a little. Maybe that is giving her too much credit. I know watching my Cavaliers struggle on during a "bad day" sure makes me more passionate about educating people... I

I understand how people new to Cavaliers or even people with younger, symptom free, healthy Cavaliers can get the wrong idea about our board. Thinking that we are over exaggerating the issues. But they have not seen what happens to so many Cavaliers as the age. :( Not to say all Cavaliers will be affected but I do believe many new owners are naive about the health conditions and risks. I KNOW I was!!! It is SO hard to believe your healthy looking, happy, bouncy, young dog could EVER be affected. Maybe it's wishful thinking because the truth is scary?

Pat
3rd July 2011, 01:24 AM
Big sigh............I was simply waiting for the twenty minutes to be over..........

Sometimes a logical debate simply isn't possible because of the participants involved but I admire those who tried.

Pat

Karlin
3rd July 2011, 02:04 AM
I was simply waiting for the twenty minutes to be over

So was I, and was quite taken aback at what was then posted. At that point, the Clue Train had left the station and I just do not have time to micro-moderate individuals who missed it. :rolleyes:

I fully understand people feeling emotional or having diverse opinions but equating the attempt to eradicate SM and other painful and debilitating diseases to targeting Jews during the holocaust is just beyond belief, and suggesting people are Hitleresque because they do not want dogs to suffer from breed rated health issues is just --excuse me -- idiotic. Especially from someone studying health and with a dog suffering from a genetic disease from a breeder who did not MRI scan. :sl*p: I wish the dog the best of luck in treatment and hope the owner will grow in understanding, maturity and compassion.

Now: if people want to continue to discuss the original issue, please do.

RodRussell
3rd July 2011, 02:56 AM
The introduction of a Hitler comparison to a board discussion is a well known phenomenon called Godwin's Law :cool::

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

The Nazis' experiments to achieve the master race were very similar to those used in the world of purebred dog breeding. So here, the analogy is legitimate. But Goda got it backwards.

robbieswan
3rd July 2011, 01:46 PM
Seems to me that buying a puppy is a lucky dip...you do your research and you still end up with a puppy with a disease, or you take a chance and buy from a puppymill and still end up with the same. Is there a failsafe way of making sure?

Margaret C
3rd July 2011, 01:59 PM
I understand how people new to Cavaliers or even people with younger, symptom free, healthy Cavaliers can get the wrong idea about our board. Thinking that we are over exaggerating the issues. But they have not seen what happens to so many Cavaliers as the age. :( Not to say all Cavaliers will be affected but I do believe many new owners are naive about the health conditions and risks. I KNOW I was!!! It is SO hard to believe your healthy looking, happy, bouncy, young dog could EVER be affected. Maybe it's wishful thinking because the truth is scary?

This of course is what is happening with many small time hobby breeders. They may now know about SM but those lucky enough to not have kept a cavalier that develops obvious symptoms can still persuade themselves the whole subject is exaggerated.

The same of course cannot be said of the large volume breeders that control the Cavalier Clubs. They are now well aware of how many cavaliers are showing up as affected.

Their denial is based on self-interest.

Margaret C
3rd July 2011, 02:04 PM
Seems to me that buying a puppy is a lucky dip...you do your research and you still end up with a puppy with a disease, or you take a chance and buy from a puppymill and still end up with the same. Is there a failsafe way of making sure?

No, but you can improve your odds of getting a healthy puppy, and at the same time reward those that care about the dogs they breed, by buying from someone that health tests AND breeds according to the guidelines.

sins
3rd July 2011, 02:36 PM
Leaving health issues aside..why would anyone buy a puppy from a puppymill?
What about that gorgeous pup's mother? Caged in filth and inhumane conditions?
While puppy mill customers cuddle their lovely puppies,who's cuddling it's mum? or do they ever give her a thought?
She probably doesn't have a name - she's probably just a piece of inventory,useeful when she's producing and a liability to be disposed of when she's not.
If people want a cavalier,it's far better to rescue an adult cavalier than to line the pockets of puppymillers.
My first cavalier was a family pet,nicely bred,bought to help my son come to terms with his fear of dogs.He has Aspergers and having her had helped him so much.Her breeder didn't test..and SM was only being highlighted as an emerging disease.
However,she was a veterinary nightmare,each event being recorded on this site over the last four and half years(yes It's a long time to belong to a message board).
She's had Eye infections
Entropion
puppy strangles
ear infections
impacted anal glands
gastroenteritis
Skin infection
Syringomyelia...(she takes frusemide,Rimadyl and gabapentin).
Total cost so far approx €2,000
My insurance company aren't interested.
My other two came from a different breeder.
My second has cost me €30 for a microchip and €70 for a booster vaccination and that's been it.She'll be two in october.
My third hasn't cost me a cent yet.
I have some lovely "family album" photos of my latest two cavaliers with their parents.(although Holly's Dad looks a bit grumpy cos he didn't realise she was his daughter instead of a visiting bitch:p)
I have a particularly nice one of my latest puppy on my lap with her Mum and gran.
The price differential between my first and second cavalier was €160.
The reality is that you are far less likely to end up with a very sick puppy,if you choose a reputable breeder who breeds with the welfare of the parents and the puppies as a major concern.
Healthy parents are more likely to produce healthy puppies,and if a breeder can't verify the health status of the parents,then they're not breeding for health or for the benefit of their customers.
By choosing a health focused breeder,you can stack the odds heavily in your favour and remove the "lucky dip" element.
No breeder can 100% guarantee that a living creature will be free from defect or illness,but they can try to do all that is reasonably practicable to put systems in place to reduce the likelihood of some early onset inherited problem happening in your pet.
But certainly,you can try the lucky dip from a BYB or puppy miller...you might be lucky.But you're gambling a lot of money and potential heartache on the outcome.
Sins

meljoy
3rd July 2011, 06:39 PM
Ive read this thread with distust and sadness. I was, for personal reasons I wont go into totally offended by the "Hitler" comment made against Karen and I applaud Karlin for stepping in and removing Goda from this wonderful forum.
The truly tragic thing is that Goda could have learnt so much that would have undoubtly helped poor little Luka in the future, not to mention the support she could receive from other members who's dogs suffer from this terrible disease.

How sad for her and her dogs.

Karlin
3rd July 2011, 08:54 PM
Great post, Sins, could not agree more. Your latter two dogs come from someone health focused and testing, and you have seen the results. :D

Margaret said:


The same of course cannot be said of the large volume breeders that control the Cavalier Clubs. They are now well aware of how many cavaliers are showing up as affected.

Yes, this is what is so frustrating -- and very obviously is causing a major change of opinion towards many of the controllers, who keep hiding the seriousness of the issue, amongst many decent smaller breeders who once thought the problem might be exaggerated then began to get back reports of affected dogs of their breeding or had the tragedy of owning an affected dog themselves. But the ones running the clubs are under national and international scrutiny now. Some things are already changing in the right direction. Many keep a low profile but scanning days at the various centres now fill, fresh initiatives have been launched by the KC, and at last, some pressure is on.

It is so important for every owner of a diagnosed dog to let their breeder know, too. Ideally the breeder will not only be a great source of support and information but will also use that information to reassess their breeding programme. If the breeder is one of the ones mistakenly assuming they cannot have any SM in their lines, or worse, one already lying when they know they do and hide that fact -- well, at least they have been informed (I always suggest a registered letter so you know they get it and cannot as easily lie and say that they don't know of a single case of SM in their dogs. It provides useful evidence too).

There are well-known health focused breeders who have already hugely reduced the incidence of early onset and severe MVD and/or SM in their lines. There are also several generations of breeding results now that show that both cavalier and griffon breeders have started with a D or F graded dog, unknowingly (because scanned after the fact) and through breeding to A dogs, have consistently produced mostly A offspring. Clare Rusbridge has made these results available in the past and regularly goes through them at her talks.

So getting a puppy is far from a lucky dip unless you opt for one from someone who doesn't do any, or minimal, health testing. A buyer is playing with positively loaded dice if they work with a good breeder, plus they will have an honest and supportive source of cavalier information for life. :D

There will always be exceptions -- that is basic Mendelian genetics -- but all evidence has shown breeding for health heavily tilts the results towards healthier dogs, and as every breeder knows, you can select for the qualities you want, whether in terms of health or appearance, and vasty increase the number of dogs that will have the qualities you want. Despite the attitude of some breeders towards working towards health ('a crap shoot' is a favourite term...:rolleyes: ) oddly enough not a single one of these people, or any show breeder, views breeding for *appearance* as a crap shoot. Otherwise why bother paying for the service of costly studs whose qualities are winning in the ring, or why not just buy in some random and cheap breeding bitches?

Jay
3rd July 2011, 10:07 PM
Leaving health issues aside..why would anyone buy a puppy from a puppymill?
What about that gorgeous pup's mother? Caged in filth and inhumane conditions?
While puppy mill customers cuddle their lovely puppies,who's cuddling it's mum? or do they ever give her a thought?
She probably doesn't have a name - she's probably just a piece of inventory,useeful when she's producing and a liability to be disposed of when she's not.

So well said! I wish people would internalize this when they are looking at those "cute little puppies" at the pet store.


But the ones running the clubs are under national and international scrutiny now. Some things are already changing in the right direction. Many keep a low profile but scanning days at the various centres now fill, fresh initiatives have been launched by the KC, and at last, some pressure is on.


I wish this were true in the US. There is very little mention of SM or making MRI a standard test in most US Cavalier local, regional and national club sites. With the headway being shown by the Dutch breeders with regard to lessening the impact of SM by using approved breeding protocols, hopefully more clubs and breeders will get the message. One thing I know for sure, we need many more low cost MRI clinics here in the US.

J.

pagep
4th July 2011, 03:43 PM
Just one point in relation to this very long and obviously contentious post. All the members of this excellent forum are obviously well informed, lovers of the breed with only the best interests of the breed at heart. Quite a high proportion of forum members would also seem to have SM or MVD affected cavaliers. The total number of forum members would represent only a tiny percentage of cavalier owners across the world.

It gives you some idea of the enormity of the challenge we face in educating the puppy buying public and breeders if such a well informed group like this has such a high proportion of cavaliers suffering from the main health issues affecting the breed. I guess my point is WE were all just like any joe soap looking for a puppy, oblivious to the health issues that we now know so much about. Unfortunately, for a lot of people, they only do the research after a health proplem rears its head -they just see 'cute puppy' and buy. And it is hard to be too judgemental when a lot of us have been in that same position.

Don't get me wrong, of course we should continue trying to educate the puppy buying public and breeders- dare I say it, it is probably one of the most important roles of forums like this. But I personally would not be too harsh on the average person who buys a puppy, not knowing about SM -after all, it has often been pointed out here that even some of our VETS know little about it.

I recently rescued a 2 year old cavalier fully aware of the health issues that come with owning one of these wonderful dogs, but it was only through visiting this forum after my last cavalier died that I became fully aware of the horrors of SM. And I read books on the breed at the time I got my first puppies -ZERO mention of SM. I am now convinced that one of my first two cavaliers had SM and was never diagnosed. And he was never diagnosed, because I didnt know the signs, and even though I feel guilty about that and wonder did he suffer much, I would say I would have done above average research before I bought him as a puppy. Back in the 90s, SM was not on the radar. Let us continue to educate and inform through this forum but avoid judging those might not be as well informed as we (now) are.

RodRussell
4th July 2011, 04:23 PM
...I wish this were true in the US. There is very little mention of SM or making MRI a standard test in most US Cavalier local, regional and national club sites. ...

In the US, the same is true of mitral valve disease. Just imagine! The two most severe and majorly widespread genetic disorders in this precious breed, MVD and CM/SM, and neither national breed club will go so far as to just suggest that their members voluntarily follow either of the breeding protocols!

Karlin
4th July 2011, 05:03 PM
But I personally would not be too harsh on the average person who buys a puppy, not knowing about SM -after all, it has often been pointed out here that even some of our VETS know little about it.

Oh, definitely. The point I think we have all made here, and made in many places on the board over the years, is that there really is no blame on the people who buy without knowing -- indeed many of these people end up the sad victims of the breeders who DO know about the problems, and should be testing and following breeding protocols, whatever the breed. This is even more true now, I think, where people think buying a puppy over the Internet is like going to Amazon for a book–you just pick out something you like because after all, breeders must love their dogs. Many of the breeders who have websites are amongst the worst–after a time, you can spot the red flag of someone saying things they know will deceive the average underinformed or just partly informed person who is trying to do their best to find a quality puppy, bred for health. but it takes a lot of initial research and knowledge to be able to pick out these duplicitous sites.

Just “seeing the mother” is not enough for any breed and yet this is the main piece of advice most vets seem to give!. Another common comment by puppy buyers that you see is that they “are not looking for a show dog” so therefore they don't even consider going to show breeders–and yet with only very rare exceptions, it is only show breeders who will put the time, effort, and money into breeding for health, even though it is few enough of these and it takes hard research to find them.

However, I do think it is really sad that the average person will spend more time researching the purchase of a refrigerator or microwave then they will a dog breed and breeders.

It actually takes very little time googling Cavaliers to have the health issues highlighted these days–I bought my first puppy in 2003, and within days I was aware that I would have to look very hard for breeders who were actually cardiologist and not vet testing their dogs' hearts, and that were following the MVD protocol. I also even at that early point had started to come across the mention of syringomyelia. At the time, there was no single website to go to for information just on SM, so for my own convenience I started to assemble links onto a website, and that turned into www.smavalier.com (http://www.smavalier.com).

I have no hesitation in putting blame for poor breed health directly at the door of those puppy buyers who DO know about SM and MVD, and yet do not choose a breeder that is doing the needed testing and following the breeding protocols, because that is a conscious decision to place breed health as the lowest priority. That decision, and the support given to the breeder who does nothing to improve breed health, has already made MVD (and increasingly, SM) endemic breed problems. Too many buyers claim that they care about health, and then buy the first puppy that is available to them, or the cheapest, or the one their neighbor bred (we have all seen it happen with people who join this site claiming they want a healthy puppy and are looking for a good breeder and go to someone who is truly ghastly). Ethically, they are no different from a puppy farmer or the breeder who breeds untested dogs or underage dogs. The damage inflicted on the breed, and the risk of individual puppies growing up to suffer and lead a compromised, shortened life, is directly subsidized by such people. We puppy buyers need to be responsible too and support good breeders who care about this breed's health and future. :)

Brian M
4th July 2011, 05:38 PM
Hi
I like many others had absolutely no idea of any problems with our Cavaliers so my first place to look at was The Kennel Clubs
website and their accredited breeder list so thats how I got Poppy ,then we decided we wanted a quality Cavalier from champion lines so in came Daisy and then shortly back to The Kennel Club scheme for Rosie .They all came at six monthly intervals and after three arrivals we thought no more as we just wanted three Pets only and we had no interest in breeding or showing .Then along came C.T. and a huge learning curve and after twelve months we decided to complete the set and my search begin for a Black and Tan girl from A Grade parents with all the paper work began ,and I couldnt find any in The U.k. so we contacted Margaret and after her help found a little B & T aged 11 months in Glasgow that met all the necessary criteria so in came our Lily .
Without the help of CavalierTalk and The Web its probable that my knowledge even now would be so limited that we could still have no idea of these dreadful problems and during my many visits to the Vets there has never once been any mention of SM or MVD.

Davecav
4th July 2011, 07:45 PM
Many of the breeders who have websites are amongst the worst–after a time, you can spot the red flag of someone saying things they know will deceive the average underinformed or just partly informed person who is trying to do their best to find a quality puppy, bred for health. but it takes a lot of initial research and knowledge to be able to pick out these duplicitous sites.

I agree Karlin, sadly the ones that advertise and pretend they are walking on water are the one's that deceive unsuspecting buyers. I have looked at a number of these websites, and the breeders often have a whole section dedicated to Health, but all they say is and how healthy their dogs an puppies are and theat they've been wormed!:mad: They don't mention one health test they have done, nor do they mention SM or often even hearts as a problem. But it sounds really grand and authoritative!

I was lucky to find a breeder who did test, but she didn't need to advertise nor have a Website as she didn't have litters often and always had ready buyers when she did.

It is hard to find these people because they don't churn puppies out. And it's even harder for a first time buyer, because often they don't know where to look.
Sometimes they are pointed in the right direction, but decide they don't want to wait, or Horror! don't want to pay an extra £100 or so.

I Just want to hark back to some of the appalling comments made earlier on in this thread (where I sat on my hands and fumed:mad::mad::mad:)

One member said that if a breeder can't afford to test their dogs, then they shouldn't be breeding. For that she was the subject of very abusive remarks; I will say now I completely agree with her statement. A breeder makes money from the sale of puppies, so the first priority is to ensure that any profits go back into the welfare of their dogs, by ensuring they have all the appropriate tests, and are kept in excellent conditions. It's a no-brainer! Dogs are not commodities, and I wish as well as everything else that new buyers would take time to look at the conditions that the breeding stock are kept in, before thinking about buying a puppy!!

anniemac
5th July 2011, 12:23 AM
This whole thread is upsetting. There will always be people that don't know better. I don't understand the mentality. One poster on another thread said something great. She was wondering about cost of SM because she is going to get a rescue. She said she knew what she was getting into and the cavalier would have health problems either way. Thank you! She was not BUYING a cavalier from a breeder that contributes to the problem, but is a special person to rescue a cavalier that who knows what background they had. So I don't understand. I have that option for my next cavalier or if I buy a puppy, it will be from a breeder that I spent time researching. I know about health problems and how to find a breeder. If I overlooked this and bought a cheap cavalier or one I could get right now, then I would be part of the problem and I would not do that.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

anniemac
5th July 2011, 12:30 AM
Also I would like to say thank you to those that know its not someone elses problem. Especially those that rescue special needs cavaliers. That takes heart and strength so thank you!

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Karen and Ruby
5th July 2011, 12:59 AM
I think to put it in a nutshell this subject is far from Everyone elses problem!

This problem is not going away and is here to stay and as Cavalier owners and lovers we MUST take the forfront in educaton and campaigning for a brighter future!

We have a massive roll to play with in this circle and I for one think that we are doing a damn fine job of it so far :rolleyes:


With the likes of Karlin, Nikki, Margaret, Tania, Carol and all the other amazing people on this forum, those that donate, those who campaign and those who just spread the word I for one would like to say

:thnx:

Desrae
5th July 2011, 10:48 AM
Ah ha, after reading through this thread, which I agree is quite upsetting, and unfortunately my opinionated nature is getting in the way and I must say that goda's mentality is probably a bit 'mental', but anyway... it reminds me of the saying: Do you want to be a part of the problem or a part of the solution? That really sums it up for me. We all must help to solve this in whatever way we are able, be it not buying a puppy from an irresponsible breeder or adopting a rescue cavalier with existing health issues.

Eleanor
5th July 2011, 11:32 AM
The reality is that you are far less likely to end up with a very sick puppy,if you choose a reputable breeder who breeds with the welfare of the parents and the puppies as a major concern.
Healthy parents are more likely to produce healthy puppies,and if a breeder can't verify the health status of the parents,then they're not breeding for health or for the benefit of their customers.
By choosing a health focused breeder,you can stack the odds heavily in your favour and remove the "lucky dip" element.
No breeder can 100% guarantee that a living creature will be free from defect or illness,but they can try to do all that is reasonably practicable to put systems in place to reduce the likelihood of some early onset inherited problem happening in your pet.
Sins

There have been so many inspiring (and soul crushing) things said here and I have hardly anything to add, but I just wanted to say that despite being very responsible in searching for my puppy, she's still sick. I don't say this to refute what others have said about the importance of choosing a breeder that tests, rather I want to note that I stand by my original decision to support a responsible breeder. I quoted Sins comment above that your chances are lower of getting a sick dog if you get it from a responsible breeder and despite my misfortune I still completely maintain that this is true. I have heard from many people around me since my puppy got sick that I should have expected this with a purebred dog and that I should have just adopted a rescue instead (since many seem to think the chance are bad either way), but again I truly believe in the comments that many of you have made - that we need to be part of the solution and we can do this by carefully choosing where we get our dogs. I am sad for the potential problems my Rigby may have, but I am not at all remiss that I supported an ethical breeder.

Reptigirl
5th July 2011, 05:09 PM
Do you want to be a part of the problem or a part of the solution? That really sums it up for me. We all must help to solve this in whatever way we are able


:thmbsup:

murphy's mum
5th July 2011, 08:46 PM
Wow, what a thread to catch up on. I'm quite glad I was on holiday while this was going on, otherwise I may have had a few choice words to say myself. Some of the things posted by the OP, well... I can only hope they were posted out of the fear and emotional turmoil of Luka's diagnosis :(

Personally I don't know if we'll "buy" another Cavalier, but if we do I would of course rather pay a breeder who has tried to help our beloved breed by scanning and testing, than throw my money at someone who buries their head in the sand. Sure, we may still end up with a dog who has health problems, but that is unfortunately the risk we face buying Cavaliers. We bought Murphy with no health tests, from an accidental breeding, we were very, very lucky, he's now five and fit as a fiddle. Looking back we know now it was a huge risk to do so, and many other owners are not as lucky as us.

Our second Cavalier Misty is a rescue, and I think anymore additions to the clan will be too. It's been a joy to watch the scared, confused little dog that arrived, transform into the little "Princess" she is today:l*v: