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Bet
5th July 2011, 12:35 PM
Could I mention this from the Veterinary Paper ,PREVALANCE OF ASYMPTOMATIC SYRINGOMYELIA IN CAVALIER KING CHARLES SPANIELS.


"The High Lifetime Prevalence of Syringomyelia raises concerns for the Welfare of the CKCS Breed and also suggests that Eliminating the Genetic Risk Factors for the Disease by Selective Breeding may be difficult ,because the Heritability has been shown to be Complex(Lewis and Others 2010 and the Prevalence of the Determinant Genes within the Population is therefore likely to be High

The True Prevalence of Syringomyelia in the General CKCS Population is expected to be Higher than that found in the Sample Population because Symptomatic Dogs were specifically excluded"

Has there now to be other Options considered since this is a Complex Condition Genetically ,that there could be several or many Genes involved and as yet there are no NO DNA Tests as yet for a Complex Condition.

That some of those Pet Cavaliers Bred might have no SM Genes ,since many of the Show Bred Cavaliers often go back to to the same Cavaliers ,or the thought of Out-Crossing to be being considered .

For the Survival of our Cavaliers has the time come for some of those Options to be being explored.

Since the SM problem is so Rife in the Cavalier Breed will Selctive Breeding be Perpetuating the SM Problem,I know these comments will be unacceptible to some ,but what is the answer.

Bet

Margaret C
5th July 2011, 07:11 PM
Could I mention this from the Veterinary Paper ,PREVALANCE OF ASYMPTOMATIC SYRINGOMYELIA IN CAVALIER KING CHARLES SPANIELS.


"The High Lifetime Prevalence of Syringomyelia raises concerns for the Welfare of the CKCS Breed and also suggests that Eliminating the Genetic Risk Factors for the Disease by Selective Breeding may be difficult ,because the Heritability has been shown to be Complex(Lewis and Others 2010 and the Prevalence of the Determinant Genes within the Population is therefore likely to be High

The True Prevalence of Syringomyelia in the General CKCS Population is expected to be Higher than that found in the Sample Population because Symptomatic Dogs were specifically excluded"

Has there now to be other Options considered since this is a Complex Condition Genetically ,that there could be several or many Genes involved and as yet there are no NO DNA Tests as yet for a Complex Condition.

That some of those Pet Cavaliers Bred might have no SM Genes ,since many of the Show Bred Cavaliers often go back to to the same Cavaliers ,or the thought of Out-Crossing to be being considered .

For the Survival of our Cavaliers has the time come for some of those Options to be being explored.

Since the SM problem is so Rife in the Cavalier Breed will Selctive Breeding be Perpetuating the SM Problem,I know these comments will be unacceptible to some ,but what is the answer.

Bet

Hello Bet,

Linebreeding and outcrossing...........This is something you and I occasionally talk about.

These are my musings only.....I will be delighted to discuss these issues with other members but I hope that the mention of puppy farm is not going to derail the topic before people have read what I have actually written........

The dogs that are bred by cavalier club members are usually line bred to show winning stock.

Of the UK Cavalier Club 10 top stud dogs last year, the No. one dog sired stud dog numbers 3, 8, 9 and 10.

Stud dog 4 is sire of 5 and 7 ....Number 6 is his grandson and stud dog number 2 was sired by his half brother.

Breeders really do like keeping things in the family.

Show bred puppies make up about one fifth of all litters registered with the Kennel Club.
So, 80% of cavaliers registered are not from cavalier club members and in many cases have very few show bred dogs in their pedigree. There will be some diversity of genes there.

Overall there probably will be more MVD in non-club member dogs as less knowledge of heart problems will mean more young stock with heart murmurs will have been bred, and there is probably going to be more eye, hip and patella problems, but will they be so badly affected with Chiari Malformation and SM?

The latest appalling figures ( 25% SM affected at one year old, 70% affected at 6 years of age ) will be from dogs owned by those who will have found out about the breeders mini scans through their contact with clubs or club breeders

Most non-members dogs have not been scanned. We can have no idea if their results will be as bad.

Don't waste your time getting indignant and accusing me of supporting puppy farmers. There is no way I would pay a penny into their pockets, but I do wish there was a way to scan some of the PF breeding bitches that come into rescue organisations so we could know if these different non-show bloodlines are as severely affected as the show lines, or in fact the different, less closely bred bloodlines have led to a lesser degree of affectedness.

There may be cavaliers out there that could offer some genetic diversity and/or less CMSM without outcrossing to another breed of dog.

The problem would be that while the breeders focus remains firmly set on producing beautiful dogs that win in the show ring ( even if the temperament is so bad they attack the dog next to them ) then they are not going to use non-show lines, however much it could improve the viability of the breed

Jay
5th July 2011, 08:45 PM
There may be cavaliers out there that could offer some genetic diversity and/or less CMSM without outcrossing to another breed of dog.

My little rescue black and tan, Harley, is estimated to be going on 9 years old. He was deemed heart-clear a few months ago by a board certified cardiologist. He shows absolutely no signs of SM. He has a sweet, wonderful temperment. He is a cute as he can be. I have had several people tell me that if I ever need to rehome him to let them know, they would take him in a heart beat (ain't gonna happen!:-)). A dog similar to Harley, with known background information, could offer valuable genetic diversity. No, he would never win in the show ring. But he is a wonderful lovely dog that would bring joy into anyone's life.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v402/JMCavalier/Harleysmaller.jpg

Bet
5th July 2011, 08:48 PM
Hello Bet,

Linebreeding and outcrossing...........This is something you and I occasionally talk about.

These are my musings only.....I will be delighted to discuss these issues with other members but I hope that the mention of puppy farm is not going to derail the topic before people have read what I have actually written........

The dogs that are bred by cavalier club members are usually line bred to show winning stock.

Of the UK Cavalier Club 10 top stud dogs last year, the No. one dog sired stud dog numbers 3, 8, 9 and 10.

Stud dog 4 is sire of 5 and 7 ....Number 6 is his grandson and stud dog number 2 was sired by his half brother.

Breeders really do like keeping things in the family.

Show bred puppies make up about one fifth of all litters registered with the Kennel Club.
So, 80% of cavaliers registered are not from cavalier club members and in many cases have very few show bred dogs in their pedigree. There will be some diversity of genes there.

Overall there probably will be more MVD in non-club member dogs as less knowledge of heart problems will mean more young stock with heart murmurs will have been bred, and there is probably going to be more eye, hip and patella problems, but will they be so badly affected with Chiari Malformation and SM?

The latest appalling figures ( 25% SM affected at one year old, 70% affected at 6 years of age ) will be from dogs owned by those who will have found out about the breeders mini scans through their contact with clubs or club breeders

Most non-members dogs have not been scanned. We can have no idea if their results will be as bad.

Don't waste your time getting indignant and accusing me of supporting puppy farmers. There is no way I would pay a penny into their pockets, but I do wish there was a way to scan some of the PF breeding bitches that come into rescue organisations so we could know if these different non-show bloodlines are as severely affected as the show lines, or in fact the different, less closely bred bloodlines have led to a lesser degree of affectedness.

There may be cavaliers out there that could offer some genetic diversity and/or less CMSM without outcrossing to another breed of dog.

The problem would be that while the breeders focus remains firmly set on producing beautiful dogs that win in the show ring ( even if the temperament is so bad they attack the dog next to them ) then they are not going to use non-show lines, however much it could improve the viability of the breed


The Cavalier Breed AT A CROSS ROAD

Yes Margaret this is why I thought as to whether I should put my Post onto the List.

Your Statistics make me glad that I did.


There must be those Genes clear of CM/SM out there some-where.

I dont think many of us would be too happy at Out Crossing our Cavaliers , and it would be Long Term Project any-way, but if the Fresh Genes could be found sooner , even some from Puppy Farms ,would that Option not be a Priority to save the Cavalier Breed.

It could either be that or no Cavalier Breed

The CM/SM Genes in Cavaliers will be what will finish off our Cavaliers.

I sure would like to hear from others on the List about their ideas where those Fresh Genes are to come from.

No, Selective Breeding is not the answer, because now those CM/SM Genes are every-where ,Ok there might be a Cavalier clear in a Litter of CM/SM but there is a good chance that He or She will be Carrier of the CM/SM Genes.

This is the Frightening Information for the Cavalier Breed.


Bet

LovesJellyBeans
5th July 2011, 09:05 PM
I don't want to get slammed for this opinion, but I think at least as start to help the breed there needs to be new genes added to the breed. And try as hard as you possibly can, I'm not sure you are going to find them in Cavaliers. Sure breeding two 'A' clear dogs should result in healthy litters, but that doesn't exclude the possibility of the traits being carried and somehow emerging later. Or worse, this could lead to selectively breeding a new negative trait into the dogs. Would it be so bad to introduce new genes from a different breed of dog? I realize that a lot of the close breeds of dogs and even the founding breeds of dogs also suffer from SM and MVD, but with some exceptionally selective breeding, it would help get a few healthy lines going strong that could be bred into the population, with hopefully new genes that don't lead to these devastating diseases/conditions. Although, I am not an expert at genetics, I do have a fairly strong background in Molecular Biology, and have had the occasion to work with in-bred strains of mice (which have various useful genetic defects that we as scientists manipulate), so the concepts are familiar to me. Maybe it isn't that revolting to most people looking to rebuild the Cavaliers to out-breed with different breeds, but I've gotten the impression that it is a bit taboo, and it probably would never go over with the majority show breeders (who probably only care about the looks not necessarily the health).

As for the DNA testing... I imagine that they may be able to associate one to five genes, which lead to the smaller skull and CM, which in turn leads to SM, but I doubt they'd ever be able to make a simple enough test that will completely identify dogs that carry these genes and which mixes lead to consequences or not. It doesn't seem to be a simple one hit wonder that could lead to a quick fix.

Margaret C
5th July 2011, 09:42 PM
I am sure no one here will slam you for your opinion. It is really good to have someone new joining in the debate.

It is more than possible that outcrossing to another breed may be the only option but how to get the die-hards to accept such a solution?

Karen and Ruby
5th July 2011, 10:51 PM
I think we just need to look at the LUA Dalmations.

This was started 40 years ago in the 70's and only this year were the KC forced to start recognising them as Dalmations and register the Puppies.
At Crufts this year the first LUA Dalmation was allowed to be shown.

To the average person i'm sure that if you put a LUA Dal and a 'pure' Dal side by side they would not see a difference at all.
But still the breeders of the 'pure' dals are still stomping their feet and opposing to the LUA Dals- they would rather have a dog destined to get an inherited condition because back in the 70's DNA testing revealed that there weren't any non-carriers' of the faulty gene left.
LUA Dals are allegedly still 95-98% pure Dal, as after the first out-crosses were made they were bred back to 'pures' and rigouresly DNA tested to make sure that no carriers of the faulty gene were bred from.

This too me is the exact same thing that I can see heppening with Cavaliers- there will always be breeders that oppose to anything you try to do.

If out crossing is the way forward then we need to find a test that is more effective to identify carriers and to find someone who is willing to take all the sticks and stones thown at them to make a difference to the future of this breed.

At the end of the day these breeds were 'created' by someone with out a care for the future health of that breed so why can't we re-create wth the focus being on health and logevity and hell..... who cares if that 'Ruby' colour has an 'undesirable' white stripe down its chest!!!

anniemac
6th July 2011, 12:58 AM
I think this was talked about on another thread but rod said that the dalmation was one bad gene so that's hard to compare with cavaliers that have conditions that are polygenetic.

I will not go into what has already been said but I will comment that I think it would be a shame to risk developing other health problems especially MVD by getting genes elsewhere. I know CM/SM is a big concern, but so is MVD along with hips, eyes, patellas. Why would we bring more health problems when we are trying to eliminate them?

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anniemac
6th July 2011, 01:02 AM
Also, I feel like if I question it or don't say that is the biggest concern, I am in the minority or I'm making cavaliers suffer. No. Ella had severe CM/SM and I know what its like and when I buy a puppy that will be a big factor but also the other things I learned about cavalier health. I can't ignore those too? That would be the same as overlooking SM. Why do I have to choose? I choose to not rush.

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LovesJellyBeans
6th July 2011, 01:04 AM
Thanks Margaret... how would you get the diehards to accept such a solution? Who says you have to? Eventually, if this disease/condition does run it's course in the Cavs like it is looking to, they won't have a choice and there won't be any options left.

All it will take is a few responsible breeders who decide that they don't need to worry about producing show quality pups anytime in the near future, but rather saving the breed. Then begin the arduous process of selecting dogs to out-cross to and then selectively breeding back to 'unaffected' Cavaliers. If the time frame is similar to the Dalmatians, as Karen noted, this will take years of hard work, some of which will probably go unacknowledged in the beginning.

It would probably take several group's efforts, and I certainly wouldn't claim to know enough to know what kind of dogs would be a good selection for out-breeding (both health and looks)... let alone how to insure that the progeny don't still carry some genes responsible for CM. A DNA test would be nice, but I sincerely doubt that it would be inclusive for all the genes responsible for this horrible plight. MRI scanning, and excessively responsible breeding would seem to be a necessity and possible way forward, even with the out-crossing.

Certainly the person/breeders that do choose to do this if there aren't any already will be excluded from listing their pups, and all show breeders would probably no-longer acknowledge them... but someday they'll be thanking that person for letting them breed their precious Cavs to the out-crosses so their line has a chance at succeeding/surviving.

(This is me being super idealistic and hoping that someone out there is good enough to begin this kind of thing... I know there are breeders out there actively trying to rid the Cav's of CM/SM... but what if that isn't enough. Would they be willing to try some beginning out-crosses, in addition to all the MRI scanning/testing they already do?)

anniemac
6th July 2011, 01:17 AM
I just don't understand so please help me because I do care. First, I do know that there are breeders who "show" cavaliers that also have a big interest in health. I'm not sure where to find others. Granted people can lump everyone together but to say to remove show puppies, what would happen to those who do like to show and are extremely proactive in health?

If researchers selected a group of breeders to take on this task, I think karlin mentioned the KC being behind it, but what happens to breed clubs. Say in the usa, the AKC gives a lot of money along with the ACKCSC charitable trust, and ckcsc usa health trust to fund health research. Would this still happen? Would people still register their cavaliers or would it even be the same breed? Who would organize health clinics, seminars, etc?

I know people say they are not doing enough but some are. What is the alternative? I'm just asking because these clubs and shows do give money to the health of the breed.

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Bet
6th July 2011, 10:48 AM
I don't want to get slammed for this opinion, but I think at least as start to help the breed there needs to be new genes added to the breed. And try as hard as you possibly can, I'm not sure you are going to find them in Cavaliers. Sure breeding two 'A' clear dogs should result in healthy litters, but that doesn't exclude the possibility of the traits being carried and somehow emerging later. Or worse, this could lead to selectively breeding a new negative trait into the dogs. Would it be so bad to introduce new genes from a different breed of dog? I realize that a lot of the close breeds of dogs and even the founding breeds of dogs also suffer from SM and MVD, but with some exceptionally selective breeding, it would help get a few healthy lines going strong that could be bred into the population, with hopefully new genes that don't lead to these devastating diseases/conditions. Although, I am not an expert at genetics, I do have a fairly strong background in Molecular Biology, and have had the occasion to work with in-bred strains of mice (which have various useful genetic defects that we as scientists manipulate), so the concepts are familiar to me. Maybe it isn't that revolting to most people looking to rebuild the Cavaliers to out-breed with different breeds, but I've gotten the impression that it is a bit taboo, and it probably would never go over with the majority show breeders (who probably only care about the looks not necessarily the health).

As for the DNA testing... I imagine that they may be able to associate one to five genes, which lead to the smaller skull and CM, which in turn leads to SM, but I doubt they'd ever be able to make a simple enough test that will completely identify dogs that carry these genes and which mixes lead to consequences or not. It doesn't seem to be a simple one hit wonder that could lead to a quick fix.


THE CAVALIER BREED AT A CROSS ROAD


Thanks Jellybeans for getting to the Nitty Gritty about this problem in our Cavaliers.

OK let us who really Love our Cavalier Breed and don't want to let it go, suggest to the Kennel Club because of CM/SM which will finish off the Cavalier Breed,

No more Breeding of Cavaliers for at least 3-5 years from any Cavalier Breeder,Show Breeder, Puppy Farmer , BYB,

Let the Researchers tackle these Horrendous Problems to try and over-come the Saving of our Cavalier Breed

Remember these Health Problems are also Welfare Problems for our Cavaliers.

This is now a Desperate Time for Cavaliers

If Cavaliers are continued to be Bred what good is that doing for the Breed,those CM/SM Genes will continue to Multiply,so for goodness sake Bite the Bullet,and let the Breeding of Cavaliers stop for a few years ,however Unpalatable this might be to some.

Bet

sins
6th July 2011, 12:22 PM
Some questions:
Popular sire Syndrome has always been a feature of the cavalier show world.
It seems it's as prevalent now as in the 70s and 80s with some top dogs siring over 100 litters.
While I agree,it's necessary to examine the need to maintain genetic diversity(hence mate select) and keeping as much genetic diversity as possible is essential,I'm not sure this will make any difference to the CM/SM situation.
Charlies are also believed to have a high strike rate for SM.
Assuming that some of the early foundation stock of cavaliers was affected and charlies were interbred until the late 1940's??(any breed historians help me out here),that it(SM) May have been widespread even in the 1950s.Then add in World war 2 and the need to go back into the early dogs again.
Throw in the popular sires of the 70's,80's and 90's and we are where we are!!
At what point did the Commercial stock break away from the show stock?
What would be an interesting exercise,is if Karlin still had copies of the pedigree certs for some of the Irish rescues.I recall seeing the pedigrees of some fosters that I had taken in and I remember seeing the well known affixs on the edge of the last generations...even in my own Daisy's pedigree there are non show lines mixed with some amazing dogs.She has severe SM and no "popular sires" of the 1990s.
Endorsing pedigrees has never caught on here and I had Daisy to breed from if I had wanted to.I could have bred three litters by now and shared the misery? Her dam had four different owners.None of the owners showed...but they operate(d) on the periphery of the showring and always bought showstock.
This tells me that it's something that's there from way back...
In the Uk, puppy farms took hold maybe in the mid 80s,I believe incentivised by Welsh government?
If SM had been established in the breed,would it not have been in the foundation stock of the commercial breeders at that point?
You're probably better off looking for breeders who operated back in the 80s in close proximity to the larger kennels,who always had a bitch or two and maybe used an occasional sire from a well known kennel.They may have non show stock from older lines?
I guess we'll have to wait until a test comes out for genetic markers and perhaps then run a wider screening programme across the population,but in the meantime,we are at a crossroads,but breeders don't know which fork to take...seems there's two much fighting underneath the signposts for any group to make a lot of progress.Too much work going into putting barriers in roads to slow progress,not to mention the naturally occuring potholes.
Bit of a mess really isn't it?
Sins

Ruth
6th July 2011, 03:12 PM
Another thought provoking and good post Sins, thankyou.
I came back from Australia in 1969 wanting a Cavalier and had quite a difficult task sourcing one in my area compared to other breeds. We didn't even have breed classes at the local shows, having to go in with the Any Varieties!
I feel it all changed in 1973 with the win of Ch. Alansmere Aquarius at Crufts, the popularity of the breed sky rocketed and the puppy farming took off. It seems incredible now but I can remember being in shock when I discovered Cavaliers were in need of a Rescue !!

In the early 90's I took in my first puppy farm boy at 6 months, you know the ones, they arrive in a car park in the boot of a car, questionable papers with unrecognisable names (bar one that I remember). The breeder had Westies too which was another breed puppy farmed alongside cavaliers. The person who took this boy tired of him when he reached six months which is how he came to live with me. I knew nothing of SM back then, but I would put money on it that he suffered from it. He was always an odd boy and preferred not to be handled, he went prematurely stone deaf and ended up with scoliosis and the most dreadful MVD but battled on until 12yrs and 2months.

Going back to my being in Australia, I was very fortunate to look after an imported Champion over there and I have since been quizzed about him because he was a direct close descendent to one of the two bitches mentioned early in Claire Rusbridge's research. Although my answer can't carry any weight because I was only with him a year, he was a fit, healthy and beautiful cavalier, and was the reason I fell in love with the breed, I certainly saw nothing untoward.

Margaret C
6th July 2011, 05:40 PM
SM was undoubtedly around back in the 1960s, some breeders have recalled having cavaliers that they could not walk on a lead. Obviously a lot of mildly affected dogs would have remained undetected.

Cavaliers all over the world, whether show lines or puppy farm stock descend from the founding dogs, but they will not have all developed in the same way.

Some countries were hard hit by SM a good few years before the UK, probably because particular imported UK dogs were used extensively at stud on the small population of resident cavaliers.
Other countries seem to have little SM in their home-bred stock although the use of unscanned UK imports will probably soon change that.

Puppy farm stock would be descended from the original founding dogs, but if they remained as a separate sub-population and the stud dogs used on them were not so line bred then they could offer different cavalier genes, and some of them may have less severe CM.

It is obviously wrong to draw conclusions from just one dog, and as I said this is just speculation on my part, but this thought was prompted by the fact that at the London Pet Show I was given the pedigree of a scanned ( at 4 years ) grade A dog where the the few names with affixes in the pedigree were well known PF names ( there were a couple of show champions in the fifth generation)

The owner had him scanned because her other dog had severe SM and she wanted to know whether he was also affected. He was KC registered and his COI was 1.3%

You are right Sins, it is a mess, one we got into unknowingly and no one is to blame for what happened originally, but that cannot still be said now.

This is not the researchers responsibility, or the KC or the BVA , it is the cavalier club members responsibility to bite the bullet,and however inconvenient, do what is necessary to breed away from the inherited problems in the breed and try and establish a nucleus of healthier cavaliers for the future.

There is a simple rule of thumb to indicate who is an irresponsible breeder even if it is not possible to check whether health tests have been done.
These days no responsible breeder should mate a dog or bitch younger than 2.5 years.....................So why is there at least one underage parent in half the litters registered by club members?

Bet
7th July 2011, 11:19 AM
SM was undoubtedly around back in the 1960s, some breeders have recalled having cavaliers that they could not walk on a lead. Obviously a lot of mildly affected dogs would have remained undetected.

Cavaliers all over the world, whether show lines or puppy farm stock descend from the founding dogs, but they will not have all developed in the same way.

Some countries were hard hit by SM a good few years before the UK, probably because particular imported UK dogs were used extensively at stud on the small population of resident cavaliers.
Other countries seem to have little SM in their home-bred stock although the use of unscanned UK imports will probably soon change that.

Puppy farm stock would be descended from the original founding dogs, but if they remained as a separate sub-population and the stud dogs used on them were not so line bred then they could offer different cavalier genes, and some of them may have less severe CM.

It is obviously wrong to draw conclusions from just one dog, and as I said this is just speculation on my part, but this thought was prompted by the fact that at the London Pet Show I was given the pedigree of a scanned ( at 4 years ) grade A dog where the the few names with affixes in the pedigree were well known PF names ( there were a couple of show champions in the fifth generation)

The owner had him scanned because her other dog had severe SM and she wanted to know whether he was also affected. He was KC registered and his COI was 1.3%

You are right Sins, it is a mess, one we got into unknowingly and no one is to blame for what happened originally, but that cannot still be said now.

This is not the researchers responsibility, or the KC or the BVA , it is the cavalier club members responsibility to bite the bullet,and however inconvenient, do what is necessary to breed away from the inherited problems in the breed and try and establish a nucleus of healthier cavaliers for the future.

There is a simple rule of thumb to indicate who is an irresponsible breeder even if it is not possible to check whether health tests have been done.
These days no responsible breeder should mate a dog or bitch younger than 2.5 years.....................So why is there at least one underage parent in half the litters registered by club members?



THE CAVALIER BREED AT A CROSS ROAD


I think that many Lovers of Cavaliers have realized that the Cavalier Breed is now Over-Whelmed by the CM Problem ,that about 90% of Cavaliers are suffering from this Condition ,which is Chacterized by Brains being Too Big for the Skulls.

To have been given more Worrying Information was the Fact that 85 Whelps Researched for the Foetal Tissue Research All (100% )had CM

As I have mentioned before, this can hinder the Flow of the Cerebro Spinal Fluid ,cause Syrinxes to form and lead to SM.

Because this is now so Prevalent and it is along with SM complex Conditions ,meaning that it is likely that Several /Many Genes are involved,as LovesJellyBeans has just Posted mentioned that even if the Researchers were able to make a Simple enough Test that will completely Identify Dogs that carry those Genes and which Mixes lead to Consequences or not ,because of the Complex Nature of this Problem in Cavaliers as has now been discovered that there are Several Genes or even Many Involved.

This CM Problem now seems to be out of control for our Cavaliers.

I wonder how many of the 555 Cavaliers quoted in the Recent Veterinary Paper just Published ,70% had SM at 6 years of age,also had CM.

I know it was mentioned that 29 Cavaliers MRI Scanned at 6 years and over, 26 had CM.

I think that there are 3 Ways forward for our Cavalier Breed.

STOP BREEDING FOR A FEW YEARS ,let the Researchers be given time to discover if they can find those CM/SM Genes, because by keeping on Breeding Cavalier those CM/SM Genes will just keep on Multiplying.


Get Fresh Genes from Other Sources ,be it Puppy Farms, BYB's or where-ever.

Or Out -Crossing Cavaliers to another Breed.

We cannot stand by any-longer ,the Cavalier Breed just can't Survive much Longer.

We have got to Face Up to this Fact.


Bet

sins
7th July 2011, 11:48 AM
STOP BREEDING FOR A FEW YEARS ,let the Researchers be given time to discover if they can find those CM/SM Genes, because by keeping on Breeding Cavalier those CM/SM Genes will just keep on Multiplying.

That doesn't make sense to me Bet.
You would effectively remove several generations of breeding bitches from the genepool,decimating the breed and wiping out any chance of maintaining genetic diversity.
How can you justify this to breeders who have bitches now of over 2.5 years old,CM only and no symptoms whatsoever?
To ask them not to breed from their bitches and prevent them from possibly producing similarly healthy offspring and to prevent those in turn from reproducing?
I have tremendous respect for breeders who are determined to keep breeding through the crisis .
Some are making good progress,many are just keeping themselves ticking over,cautiously producing a litter here and there until more is known about CM/SM.
There are a number of ways forward..
and none of them needing a scorched earth policy like you appear to be recommending.
Sins

Tania
7th July 2011, 01:40 PM
How can you justify this to breeders who have bitches now of over 2.5 years old,CM only and no symptoms whatsoever?



I am concerned a Cavalier with CM and not showing present signs of symptoms will become acceptable! Dougall has CM, he did not appear
to show signs of pain or discomfort. I scanned him purely on a "I need to know basis".


Before the MRI and treatment, we assumed he was a quiet dog. After the MRI and treatment (pain relief) he became a cheeky naughty little dog.


We have no idea whether a dog with mild cm showing no symptoms is suffering. Cavaliers with severe sm are still sweet and waggy tailed .
The Cavaliers have high levels of Serotonin which give them this happy disposition.

CM cannot be accepted as ok.

sins
7th July 2011, 02:38 PM
I agree Tania,
But taking into account current breeding stock which has already been scanned,"CM only" is achievable if breeders aim for it.
CM free status is simply not achievable at this present time.
I think it's quite a worthy and practical interim goal to aim for while researchers get on with their work.
When and if the mechanism for CM formation is understood at molecular level,then maybe the search can begin for sub populations of cavaliers who may be CM free,or the scene may be set for an outcross to a different breed.
Sadly,there are many who already feel that a syrinx is a "benign anatomical feature" and not a problem.
I feel sorry for the truly health focused breeder caught in the middle of this mess.
On one hand they're being branded as zealots and mavericks for trying to do the right thing and told that they're destroying the breed.Then on the other hand they're told that their efforts to reduce the incidence of SM isn't good enough,even though they breed A to A and have had tangible improvements in their stock.They donate lost puppies to FTR,they take the remains of their much loved dog for post mortem and it's just not good enough???
No wonder breeders are walking away in despair.
I'm convinced though,that the luckiest breeders are the ones who never frequent message boards...they can get on with their business without having to read some of the bizarre demands and suggestions that pass for expert opinion.
I genuinely hope that a subpopulation of cavalier breeders can keep a cool head and hold their nerve and salvage this breed in what's a virtually uninhabitable atmosphere.
Sins

anniemac
7th July 2011, 03:36 PM
Thank you Sins. It is shame and is that that these breeders give up. Even those that are doing everything for the future health of the breed get criticized and not from other breeders. That’s all I will say publically, but even staying off message boards will not stop what is said other places.

Margaret C
7th July 2011, 03:54 PM
I feel sorry for the truly health focused breeder caught in the middle of this mess.
On one hand they're being branded as zealots and mavericks for trying to do the right thing and told that they're destroying the breed.Then on the other hand they're told that their efforts to reduce the incidence of SM isn't good enough,even though they breed A to A and have had tangible improvements in their stock.They donate lost puppies to FTR,they take the remains of their much loved dog for post mortem and it's just not good enough???
No wonder breeders are walking away in despair.

Looking at things quite dispassionately the statement I have highlighted in red is the truth.
Their efforts are not good enough to outweigh the relentless production of puppies from non-scanned underage cavalier parents.
And I'm talking cavalier club members here......not a hope of changing things elsewhere when those that are suppose to ***"Maintain a high standard and act in a responsible manner with due regard to the welfare of the dogs under their control and to abide by the Club's Code of Ethics" sabotage health initiatives and make it increasingly unlikely that the efforts of the health focused breeders are enough to build a SM free nucleus of breeding dogs.

And to be quite honest, although these responsible breeders are doing all they can, while they let the people that are not scanning, or scanning only young dogs and pretending they have followed the protocol, or scanning and using dogs that are SM affected, sit on committees and health liaison councils and speak for them, then they must take some of the blame.

Why do these health focused breeders imagine the BVA/KC scanning scheme is dragging on for so long? Why do they imagine that the Cavalier Health Council oppose the publication of results?

If you scan and use your breeding cavaliers after 2.5 years in accordance with the guidelines, why would you object?

If you remove affected dogs from your breeding programme as you should, why would you object?

If you mate asymptomatic older affected dogs to Grade A dogs, as is allowed in the protocol, why would you object, unless you believe that you should be allowed to hide the information from the pet owner who buys the puppies from this riskier mating?

Non-publication of results allows use of affected dogs to remain hidden and most of these pairings are for the commercial interest of the breeder, not for reasons of genetic diversity.

Some of these matings may be justified if an affected dog from good heart lines or the 'D' Grade cavalier comes from less popular lines. If the reasons are genuine the breeder should be ready to explain and to be honest & accountable to the buyers, who has the right to know the health risks and advantages of such a mating before they buy their family pet.

* One of the objects of the UK Cavalier Club

ByFloSin
7th July 2011, 04:32 PM
One of my earliest childhood memories, way back in the 1940s, was of hearing my parents say that my grandfather had cancer. Their tones were hushed and they never talked about it outside our home, because in those days anybody having that diagnosis were assured a slow and painful death from what was an undisputed incurable killer disease.

Slowly, various surgical treatments and drugs were introduced with ever increasing effective results in not only prolonging life, but also, as in my own case, eradicating the tumours altogether. If some return, then the treatment is repeated, which is effective in a great many, but not all, cases.

If it is true that 80 percent of Cavaliers are diseased, would it not be most effective to concentrate our efforts on finding and perhaps funding treatments that work? This is what Cancer Research UK and other agencies are now doing to combat cancers and it does make sense to me.

Margaret C
7th July 2011, 05:36 PM
One of my earliest childhood memories, way back in the 1940s, was of hearing my parents say that my grandfather had cancer. Their tones were hushed and they never talked about it outside our home, because in those days anybody having that diagnosis were assured a slow and painful death from what was an undisputed incurable killer disease.

Slowly, various surgical treatments and drugs were introduced with ever increasing effective results in not only prolonging life, but also, as in my own case, eradicating the tumours altogether. If some return, then the treatment is repeated, which is effective in a great many, but not all, cases.

If it is true that 80 percent of Cavaliers are diseased, would it not be most effective to concentrate our efforts on finding and perhaps funding treatments that work? This is what Cancer Research UK and other agencies are now doing to combat cancers and it does make sense to me.

Are cancer charities really concentrating on funding treatments and no longer supporting research into the cause of the disease?

There is no doubt effective treatments are essential for our SM dogs but I'm not sure I agree we should be going for the sticking plaster option.

Over the years we have seen many cavaliers with MVD living longer thanks to a plethora of new heart drugs, but there are still too many that die at seven or eight years old.

I would think it was still better for cavaliers not to have a built in disposition to a painful condition in the first place.

anniemac
7th July 2011, 05:55 PM
Are cancer charities really concentrating on funding treatments and no longer supporting research into the cause of the disease?

There is no doubt effective treatments are essential for our SM dogs but I'm not sure I agree we should be going for the sticking plaster option.

Over the years we have seen many cavaliers with MVD living longer thanks to a plethora of new heart drugs, but there are still too many that die at seven or eight years old.

I would think it was still better for cavaliers not to have a built in disposition to a painful condition in the first place.

Flo,

I reposted a previous thread b/c I read there was research to stop progression. It is sad to read this and to know breeders are giving up. It just hurts pet buyers b/c it makes it harder to find a breeder. Then again, I think this thread was created and mentioned to stop breeding. I give up.

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RodRussell
7th July 2011, 07:03 PM
... Over the years we have seen many cavaliers with MVD living longer thanks to a plethora of new heart drugs, but there are still too many that die at seven or eight years old. ...

I am not so sure that the dogs live longer because of the drugs. They definitely live more comfortably, thanks to drugs. But very few drugs delay the progression of MVD to congestive heart failure, and those that do seem to delay progression do not do so very often. Today's MVD drugs are designed to "manage" the disease, not to halt its progression or to cure it.

RodRussell
7th July 2011, 07:07 PM
... If it is true that 80 percent of Cavaliers are diseased, would it not be most effective to concentrate our efforts on finding and perhaps funding treatments that work? ...

That always has been one of the aims of research, and it is ongoing. I think the most effective thing to do about MVD is what very, very few CKCS breeders (at least in the US) have done, which is to follow the MVD breeding protocol.

ByFloSin
7th July 2011, 07:28 PM
That always has been one of the aims of research, and it is ongoing. I think the most effective thing to do about MVD is what very, very few CKCS breeders (at least in the US) have done, which is to follow the MVD breeding protocol.

Silly me Rod, I thought the topic was SM and trying to eliminate it's causes by selective breeding or outcrossing. :bang:

ByFloSin
7th July 2011, 07:38 PM
Are cancer charities really concentrating on funding treatments and no longer supporting research into the cause of the disease?

There is no doubt effective treatments are essential for our SM dogs but I'm not sure I agree we should be going for the sticking plaster option.

Over the years we have seen many cavaliers with MVD living longer thanks to a plethora of new heart drugs, but there are still too many that die at seven or eight years old.

I would think it was still better for cavaliers not to have a built in disposition to a painful condition in the first place.

Yes Margaret it is official. Cancer Research UK made an official announcement recently that they are no longer looking for for causes but for effective treatments a few weeks ago. Perhaps you missed it in the media. I had a newsletter from them saying the same thing. I have been looking for it, but perhaps it went into the recycling once I had read it.:o

Bet
7th July 2011, 07:44 PM
That always has been one of the aims of research, and it is ongoing. I think the most effective thing to do about MVD is what very, very few CKCS breeders (at least in the US) have done, which is to follow the MVD breeding protocol.



THE CAVALIER BREED AT A CROSS ROAD

I think that it would be worth while reading the recently Published Veterinary Paper where it was discussed that SM also raises concerns for the Welfare for Our Cavalier Breed.

Is not the Cavalier Breed Decimated already with around 90% having CM.

If Cavaliers have CM,I am quoting again from Dr C Rusbridge ,Neurologist ,

CM is Chacterized between tha Brain being Too Big ,Skull Too Small.


This Blocks up the Opening from the Skull into the Spinal Cord and Alters the Cerebro Fluid.

As a Result ,Fluid filled Cavaties Develope within the Spinal Cord called a Syrinx .

This Condition is called SM

What is the use of Breeding from Cavalier Bitches who have CM.

There surely is no other way than not Breeding from a Cavalier who is suffering from CM

If around 90% of Cavaliers are affected with CM ,then does it not follow on that that the remaing 10 % could be Carriers of the CM Genes.

What more is needed to be being known about the Horrendous CM Problem ,about 90% have CM.

Surely it silly for Cavalier Breeders to be aiming to be Breeding for Cavaliers with only CM.

How is the Cavalier Breed going to be able to survive with this condition?


Bet

ByFloSin
7th July 2011, 07:54 PM
Flo,

I reposted a previous thread b/c I read there was research to stop progression. It is sad to read this and to know breeders are giving up. It just hurts pet buyers b/c it makes it harder to find a breeder. Then again, I think this thread was created and mentioned to stop breeding. I give up.

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I don't think it is a matter of breeders giving up at all. Many of those who have not scanned before are now doing so, but then there are others waiting for the new protocols to be finalised, which were promised some time ago, but unless I have missed something, they have still not yet been published. There are also those whose younger stock are coming up to breeding age who are scanning too.

Many have given up breeding alltogether I am sorry to say. Some are giving up because the causes of SM and guidelines for testing have been changed so many times, others because they have just had enough of all the blaming and mud slinging aimed in their direction.

Looking at the situation of finding a health testing breeder from where I sit, I have given up advising would be cavalier owners how to find a tested pup because they want the puppy now, they don't want to drive a few miles to see a litter and they want to buy a pup for a bargain price. The last such person I spent a couple of hours on the 'phone to locate a puppy for was one of my neighbours whose son wanted a Cavalier. I did find a litter, told him the pup would cost a very fair £600 and he laughed in my face and said they're in the paper for £350. This idiot is typical of the many I have tried to advise over the past 5 years. If anyone asks now, I tell them to contact either the Midland Club or the K.C., knowing that they will end up looking in the Birmingham Mail.

Margaret C
7th July 2011, 08:48 PM
Some are giving up because the causes of SM and guidelines for testing have been changed so many times


Actually that is incorrect.

There is a lot of misinformation put about by some breeders and some people take it as gospel but it is always best to check the articles published by the researchers for the true facts.

The actual Guidelines have only been changed once as far as I can remember, and surely it is sensible to look again at things as more information becomes available.



Looking at the situation of finding a health testing breeder from where I sit, I have given up advising would be cavalier owners how to find a tested pup because they want the puppy now, they don't want to drive a few miles to see a litter and they want to buy a pup for a bargain price.

I'm glad to say that is not my experience. I sent out my Puppy Buying Advice to two people today. They were willing to spend time time looking for a good breeder.

anniemac
7th July 2011, 09:15 PM
Show bred puppies make up about one fifth of all litters registered with the Kennel Club.
So, 80% of cavaliers registered are not from cavalier club members and in many cases have very few show bred dogs in their pedigree. There will be some diversity of genes there.

Overall there probably will be more MVD in non-club member dogs as less knowledge of heart problems will mean more young stock with heart murmurs will have been bred, and there is probably going to be more eye, hip and patella problems, but will they be so badly affected with Chiari Malformation and SM?



Rod,

I think you missed the start of the thread. This is not about MVD. Actually Margaret said it will probably lead to MORE problems with MVD and other health issues. I'm surprised you missed that.

Karlin
7th July 2011, 09:41 PM
The topic of MVD had been introduced before Rod commented and I think that actually the whole thread is very far away from the issue of outcrossing :) -- but has progressed in a logical and interesting manner and MVD is a relveant reference point as it is also a progressive disease and has associated breeding recommendations -- yet few follow them except in bits and pieces (as anyone can see themselves by looking at some online pedigrees and checking when first litters were bred and age of parents, especially sires). And incidence has never declined in nearly 20 years. Not a very positive example for SM.

On medication research -- not so sure it is worth putting rare research money into trying to find new medications when all that exist for both MVD and SM come from the much better funded human world and do the same thing. It can cost billions to get a single drug to approval -- and there is no way that is ever going to be raised in the cavalier community or even the dog community. And drug companies are unlikely to be interested in pursuing a dog- only medication -- and really would not need to as far as I can see right now. Surely money is better spent aiming for understanding canine CM/SM, seeking a DNA test, and funding some studies on treatment outcomes/comparative studies etc? (as I noted elsewhere there is no research on a drug to halt SM progression; I think people misunderstood the original comment by Clare Rusbridge).

As Margaret says, understanding of SM has actually been quite consistent and the grading system has only been changed once in nearly a decade now, and then only in quite subtle aspects that hardly affect breeding recommendations or the grades themselves (some keep trying to rewrite the truth here but go back and compare Clare's newsletters on www.smcavalier.com (http://www.smcavalier.com) and you can see only modest change). And surely they SHOULD gradually change as more is understood and to try and reflect as best as possible how a system might be used by breeders? One bit that was changed was done to directly address breeders' own interests in scanning dogs under 2.5. The A* grade was also removed, mainly because to date no more than a couple of dogs that truly do not have CM have been identified (and right now, I would not believe a 'no CM' diagnosis from the US unless a neurologist who was part of the original grading panel, eg someone like Dr Marino, is the one who has said there's no CM. Too many neurologists less familiar with SM in the breed -- and LOTS of vets and radiologists -- cannot identify CM at all.

I am not aware of any large number of people saying breeders who scan, try to work with AxA breedings etc are not doing enough? There's sure a lot of support here for them! :flwr: Though keep in mind d grade dogs are probably needed for genetic diversity --there simply are not enough As especially outside the UK as not enough scan and too many still keep results secret. Not enough scan older dogs to see whether an A at 2.5 is still an A at 6 (despite funds to do so) -- that information is the really critical knowledge breeders need about their lines. There are those who think the breed cannot or should not be salvaged -- but that is different from stating health-focused testing breeders are not doing enough. On the other hand -- I agree that there is a HUGE issue in that those same breeders need to take on the old guard in the club and committees. Too few of them attend the AGM, too few vote, too few will do anything but keep a low profile and talk amongst themselves. That public silence and failure to move these issues onto the club agenda allows the same old crowd to continue in the roles that will influence the (if these people stay there -- lack of) future of the breed. I have heard so many say they will not get involved with the committees and club and hence there is little visible support for the few members who will stand up and get involved and the same old worn out thinking is perpetuated across another committee. Right now much that is changing in any positive way is being forced on the club and committee by external forces (eg the KC stating that health results for dogs in the mate-matching scheme will be made public).

A small dedicated group of breeders cannot save the breed. They cannot incorporate enough genetic diversity, for one thing -- and if testing remains secretive people are going to (as they have in the past) be pressured to not ask for actual results of tests and find they have used dogs with various problems (as I know has happened to several breeders told they were using 'A' dogs -- but who graded them A? And what other problems were they known to have that the breeder didn't reveal? Some of which showed in puppies).

A health registry that breeders SUPPORT is badly needed. Right now there's only a handful list dogs on some of the existing efforts. A lot of the healthtesting breeders do not list their dogs there (ie with Anne Eckersley). Why not? What about a UK health registry?

anniemac
7th July 2011, 11:27 PM
I don't think it is a matter of breeders giving up at all. Many of those who have not scanned before are now doing so, but then there are others waiting for the new protocols to be finalised, which were promised some time ago, but unless I have missed something, they have still not yet been published. There are also those whose younger stock are coming up to breeding age who are scanning too.

Many have given up breeding alltogether I am sorry to say. Some are giving up because the causes of SM and guidelines for testing have been changed so many times, others because they have just had enough of all the blaming and mud slinging aimed in their direction.

.

Flo,

I meant I give up and not by trying to find a breeder but this thread is making my head spin. I'm going to get myself a message.

RodRussell
8th July 2011, 12:50 AM
Actually that is incorrect.

There is a lot of misinformation put about by some breeders and some people take it as gospel but it is always best to check the articles published by the researchers for the true facts.

The actual Guidelines have only been changed once as far as I can remember, and surely it is sensible to look again at things as more information becomes available. ...

Margaret is correct. The SM protocol was changed -- actually tweeked -- only once, and has not been changed since 2006. See http://www.cavalierhealth.org/smprotocol.htm

anniemac
8th July 2011, 02:19 AM
Margaret,

The person with the 2 severe SM cavaliers and 1 A, were they from 3 different breeders or the same one? Did she have all 3 at once when she found out 2 had SM? Were the ones that were severe from show breeders or recognizable names?

The reason I'm asking is because after having a cavalier with severe SM, I would definately want my puppy from a breeder following the SM protocol. So I was curious if this is how she got the A etc.

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Bet
8th July 2011, 11:44 AM
Flo,

I meant I give up and not by trying to find a breeder but this thread is making my head spin. I'm going to get myself a message.


THE CAVALIER BREED IS AT A CROSS ROAD

I really do think the Big Question for our Cavaliers is the Continual Breeding of Cavaliers at the moment spreading the CM Genes Wider and Wider.
.
Karlin mentioned that A * Grades were removed because to Date no More than a Couple of Dogs that truly did not have CM had been identified .

CM is I believe the Biggest Problem for the Cavalier Breed.

Surely to save our Cavalier Breed drastic Measures have to be taken to stop the Spreading of the CM Genes any further.

Get Fresh Genes into the Breed , Out-Crossing , Stop the Breeding of Cavaliers for a few years, or what-ever means it takes.

For Sure Selective Breeding is not going to do it.

The CM Genes are now too Wide-Spread for that to benefit our Cavaliers.

Bet

Davecav
8th July 2011, 02:54 PM
Bet from what you continue to say time after time,it really does sound as if nothing short of the extinction of Cavaliers will suit you.

There are people on this forum and throughout the world who want to carry on owning this wonderful breed, and donating towards research on the health problems. (both in money, scanning older dogs, and donating cavaliers bodies who have passed away, which must be very upsetting and difficult, but they do it for the sake of the breed)

There are highly qualified researchers working hard to come up with solutions, and dedicated breeders who are really trying their very best to breed away from the problems. This will all take time, it can't be done in one or two generations. Please be patient.

To be honest I find all your comments extremely negative and unhelpful and I tire of reading them. You just won't give credit to all the hard work that is going on behind the scenes.

Bet
8th July 2011, 06:19 PM
Bet from what you continue to say time after time,it really does sound as if nothing short of the extinction of Cavaliers will suit you.

There are people on this forum and throughout the world who want to carry on owning this wonderful breed, and donating towards research on the health problems. (both in money, scanning older dogs, and donating cavaliers bodies who have passed away, which must be very upsetting and difficult, but they do it for the sake of the breed)

There are highly qualified researchers working hard to come up with solutions, and dedicated breeders who are really trying their very best to breed away from the problems. This will all take time, it can't be done in one or two generations. Please be patient.

To be honest I find all your comments extremely negative and unhelpful and I tire of reading them. You just won't give credit to all the hard work that is going on behind the scenes.


THE CAVALIER BREED AT A CROSS ROAD


DAVECAV

I would suggest that you send for the latest Veterinary Paper just Published which can be Purchased for £24 , and you will then have the information that you need about this.


Bet

anniemac
8th July 2011, 07:41 PM
THE CAVALIER BREED AT A CROSS ROAD


DAVECAV

I would suggest that you send for the latest Veterinary Paper just Published which can be Purchased for £24 , and you will then have the information that you need about this.


Bet

I have bought it but I agree with Davecav

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anniemac
8th July 2011, 09:33 PM
I don't want to single anyone out, but this thread bothers me because of the comments. I just would like to ask if even those helping research is not enough, then what's the point of pet owners donating their dogs when they pass, Rupert's Fund? I totally support Rupert's Fund and research, but when comments like this are made on a public forum ESPECIALLY from people that are leading the efforts to help and speak out about this condition it can be harmful. Just from me reading this thread and other threads, I get the idea that the breed can't be saved and so I hesitate to want to help with something that seems pointless. I KNOW this is not how researchers and others feel, but when that crosses my mind, then I can see why it would for breeders also.

If CM can not be accepted, then basically then why are breeders even following SM protocols? Then this comment,


7th July 2011, 09:54 AM
Margaret C
Quote:



Originally Posted by sins http://www.cavaliertalk.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.cavaliertalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=395886#post395886)
I feel sorry for the truly health focused breeder caught in the middle of this mess.
On one hand they're being branded as zealots and mavericks for trying to do the right thing and told that they're destroying the breed.Then on the other hand they're told that their efforts to reduce the incidence of SM isn't good enough,even though they breed A to A and have had tangible improvements in their stock.They donate lost puppies to FTR,they take the remains of their much loved dog for post mortem and it's just not good enough???
No wonder breeders are walking away in despair.


Looking at things quite dispassionately the statement I have highlighted in red is the truth.
Their efforts are not good enough to outweigh the relentless production of puppies from non-scanned underage cavalier parents."

Their efforts which have been improving SHOULD be focused on and not the negative because it makes me think why help when there is a negative attitude.

Davecav
8th July 2011, 09:56 PM
THE CAVALIER BREED AT A CROSS ROAD


DAVECAV

I would suggest that you send for the latest Veterinary Paper just Published which can be Purchased for £24 , and you will then have the information that you need about this.


Bet

I'm not sure what information I need from the latest Veterinary Paper to know that:

(from my previous post)
'There are people on this forum and throughout the world who want to carry on owning this wonderful breed, and donating towards research on the health problems. (both in money, scanning older dogs, and donating cavaliers bodies who have passed away, which must be very upsetting and difficult, but they do it for the sake of the breed)'
These people do exist - Honest!
;)

Or -

Do you mean if I read the paper I really will have proof that: (taken from my previous post) 'There are highly qualified researchers working hard to come up with solutions', - in fact - they have made a study of 555 Cavaliers who had been declared by their owners as showing no clinical signs of SM? That MRI scans were conducted on these dogs and this resulted in 46% of the dogs being given a positive diagnosis for SM?
And that SM has a significant heritable component, the KC and BVA are preparing a screening programme............... the results will be used to direct selective breeding to reduce or eliminate the condition.

This doesn't sound to me that the Researchers think that the end is nigh for Cavaliers! Nor does it sound as if there isn't some very dedicated breeders out there! ..... who by their informal screening of their dogs has given sufficient numbers for this study to take place.
.
At the risk of following in your footsteps - I will repeat ; This will all take time, and will probably be very fraught, there will be blind alleys and pot holes; it can't be done in one or two generations. Please be patient.

I will not give up on this lovely breed.

Margaret C
9th July 2011, 01:48 AM
I don't want to single anyone out, but this thread bothers me because of the comments. I just would like to ask if even those helping research is not enough, then what's the point of pet owners donating their dogs when they pass, Rupert's Fund? I totally support Rupert's Fund and research, but when comments like this are made on a public forum ESPECIALLY from people that are leading the efforts to help and speak out about this condition it can be harmful. Just from me reading this thread and other threads, I get the idea that the breed can't be saved and so I hesitate to want to help with something that seems pointless. I KNOW this is not how researchers and others feel, but when that crosses my mind, then I can see why it would for breeders also.

If CM can not be accepted, then basically then why are breeders even following SM protocols? Then this comment,

7th July 2011, 09:54 AM
Margaret C
Quote:



Originally Posted by sins http://www.cavaliertalk.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.cavaliertalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=395886#post395886)
I feel sorry for the truly health focused breeder caught in the middle of this mess.
On one hand they're being branded as zealots and mavericks for trying to do the right thing and told that they're destroying the breed.Then on the other hand they're told that their efforts to reduce the incidence of SM isn't good enough,even though they breed A to A and have had tangible improvements in their stock.They donate lost puppies to FTR,they take the remains of their much loved dog for post mortem and it's just not good enough???
No wonder breeders are walking away in despair.

Looking at things quite dispassionately the statement I have highlighted in red is the truth.
Their efforts are not good enough to outweigh the relentless production of puppies from non-scanned underage cavalier parents."

Their efforts which have been improving SHOULD be focused on and not the negative because it makes me think why help when there is a negative attitude.

Anne,

I am sorry if my comments upset you, but I speak what I believe is the truth even if it is not what some people want to hear.

There are many wonderful cavalier owners that are doing everything they can to give cavaliers a future, but there are even more that are breeding selfishly, and the caring breeders are keeping their heads down and letting it happen.

I am one of those that work hard raising awareness about SM, but many times I wonder why I bother because I think the effort may well fail.
Because I love these little dogs, and I don't think any animal should be born to a life of pain, I continue to try.

I do not see it as some sort of disloyalty to talk about how health compromised this breed is, pretending things are fine when there are deliberate moves to prevent effective official health screening schemes is what is wrong. It really is ineffectual to do the right things but then stand by and let the foxes that have taken over the hen house sabotage what decent breeders are doing.

I will say again.........
The efforts of those that do everything are not good enough to outweigh the relentless production of puppies from non-scanned underage cavalier parents owned and bred by other Cavalier Club members.

It is time that the ordinary members demanded that the Cavalier Club toughened up on those that break the breeding guidelines and put the dogs, rather than a few commercially minded breeders, first.

RodRussell
9th July 2011, 05:57 AM
... I do not see it as some sort of disloyalty to talk about how health compromised this breed is, pretending things are fine when there are deliberate moves to prevent effective official health screening schemes is what is wrong. ...

There are more than enough cavalier breeder websites which try to cover up the true health conditions of the breed. It is not our responsibilty to also be blind advocates of the breed so that these types of breeders can keep pumping out health-compromised litters from under-aged, untested or knowingly-affected sires and dams. Somebody has to communicate the truth about the genetic health conditions of this breed, and it certainly is not most of the breeders.

anniemac
9th July 2011, 07:23 AM
There are more than enough cavalier breeder websites which try to cover up the true health conditions of the breed. It is not our responsibilty to also be blind advocates of the breed so that these types of breeders can keep pumping out health-compromised litters from under-aged, untested or knowingly-affected sires and dams. Somebody has to communicate the truth about the genetic health conditions of this breed, and it certainly is not most of the breeders.

Rod,

I agree with being open but not at the risk of overall health. No question about underage, popular sire, etc. There are some breeders that have worked very hard for years in regards to hearts. You know them. Would those lines be sacrificed or should it be what you mentioned from Dr. Bell's article, and part of why a D CAN be breed to an older A. I'm talking of older not young A's etc.

Don't we want good and bad results posted? That's part of being open and can't be used to single out bad results.

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Bet
9th July 2011, 10:28 AM
I'm not sure what information I need from the latest Veterinary Paper to know that:

(from my previous post)
'There are people on this forum and throughout the world who want to carry on owning this wonderful breed, and donating towards research on the health problems. (both in money, scanning older dogs, and donating cavaliers bodies who have passed away, which must be very upsetting and difficult, but they do it for the sake of the breed)'
These people do exist - Honest!
;)

Or -

Do you mean if I read the paper I really will have proof that: (taken from my previous post) 'There are highly qualified researchers working hard to come up with solutions', - in fact - they have made a study of 555 Cavaliers who had been declared by their owners as showing no clinical signs of SM? That MRI scans were conducted on these dogs and this resulted in 46% of the dogs being given a positive diagnosis for SM?
And that SM has a significant heritable component, the KC and BVA are preparing a screening programme............... the results will be used to direct selective breeding to reduce or eliminate the condition.

This doesn't sound to me that the Researchers think that the end is nigh for Cavaliers! Nor does it sound as if there isn't some very dedicated breeders out there! ..... who by their informal screening of their dogs has given sufficient numbers for this study to take place.
.
At the risk of following in your footsteps - I will repeat ; This will all take time, and will probably be very fraught, there will be blind alleys and pot holes; it can't be done in one or two generations. Please be patient.

I will not give up on this lovely breed.



THE CAVALIER BREED IS AT A CROSS ROAD


DAVECAV

I think if you Purchased the Recently Published Veterinary Paper ,Price £24 , you would better understand what the Researchers have Discussed in it.

If the 555 Cavaliers at 6 years ,70% have SM , also had CM ,then what good will Selective Breeding be.

The mention was made in the Paper that this is a WELFARE PROBLM for our Cavalier Breed.

It is so silly to say I want there to be no more Cavaliers, I would like the Cavaliers to have the chance of Healthier, Longer Lives, but with the evidence that about 90% have CM which most folk have to agree is the Biggest Problem in our Cavaliers , I sure would like to hear your Idea Davecav about how this will be tackled.

WHAT WOULD DO ABOUT IT?


Bet

Bet
9th July 2011, 10:36 AM
THE CAVALIER BREED IS AT A CROSS ROAD


DAVECAV

I think if you Purchased the Recently Published Veterinary Paper ,Price £24 , you would better understand what the Researchers have Discussed in it.

If the 555 Cavaliers at 6 years ,70% have SM , also had CM ,then what good will Selective Breeding be.

The mention was made in the Paper that this is a WELFARE PROBLM for our Cavalier Breed.

It is so silly to say I want there to be no more Cavaliers, I would like the Cavaliers to have the chance of Healthier, Longer Lives, but with the evidence that about 90% have CM which most folk have to agree is the Biggest Problem in our Cavaliers , I sure would like to hear your Idea Davecav about how this will be tackled.

WHAT WOULD DO ABOUT IT?


Bet


THE CAVALIER BREED IS AT A CROSS ROAD


Could I add ,I wonder how many Cavaliers MRI Scanned as A ,also had CM.

Bet

Davecav
9th July 2011, 12:38 PM
THE CAVALIER BREED IS AT A CROSS ROAD


DAVECAV

I think if you Purchased the Recently Published Veterinary Paper ,Price £24 , you would better understand what the Researchers have Discussed in it.

If the 555 Cavaliers at 6 years ,70% have SM , also had CM ,then what good will Selective Breeding be.

The mention was made in the Paper that this is a WELFARE PROBLM for our Cavalier Breed.

It is so silly to say I want there to be no more Cavaliers, I would like the Cavaliers to have the chance of Healthier, Longer Lives, but with the evidence that about 90% have CM which most folk have to agree is the Biggest Problem in our Cavaliers , I sure would like to hear your Idea Davecav about how this will be tackled.

WHAT WOULD DO ABOUT IT?


Bet

Bet in my original post I did not mention the percentage of cavaliers that have SM, nor was I arguing with the figures that are in the Veterinary Report (which I am aware of - and for your information - that I have in fact read!)

The intention of my original post was to highlight that there are many people out there working hard for the breed. It had nothing to do with Vetinary Reports!

I have no intention of trying to work out the solution to the problems cavaliers and their breeders face (far better people than me are trying to work towards understanding the CM/SM condition, and MVD)
At the moment I am putting my faith in the advancement of science and locating genetic markers for both these health problems. At the same time I support the relative few breeders who are also trying their hardest to breed healthy dogs. They have my full support!

Hare-brained badly thought out schemes of crossing to other breeds is not the solution at the moment (in my humble opinion) For the simple reason that something such as this (which will need much research and planning) - if it ever happens, will have to be lead by Genetisits, together with a Very dedicated group of breeders who are willing to keep All offspring from trial matings so they can be monitored over numbers of years before it can be established that there is movement in the right direction - AND - that other genetic health problems haven't been inadvertently introduced.

Bet
9th July 2011, 01:41 PM
Bet in my original post I did not mention the percentage of cavaliers that have SM, nor was I arguing with the figures that are in the Veterinary Report (which I am aware of - and for your information - that I have in fact read!)

The intention of my original post was to highlight that there are many people out there working hard for the breed. It had nothing to do with Vetinary Reports!

I have no intention of trying to work out the solution to the problems cavaliers and their breeders face (far better people than me are trying to work towards understanding the CM/SM condition, and MVD)
At the moment I am putting my faith in the advancement of science and locating genetic markers for both these health problems. At the same time I support the relative few breeders who are also trying their hardest to breed healthy dogs. They have my full support!

Hare-brained badly thought out schemes of crossing to other breeds is not the solution at the moment (in my humble opinion) For the simple reason that something such as this (which will need much research and planning) - if it ever happens, will have to be lead by Genetisits, together with a Very dedicated group of breeders who are willing to keep All offspring from trial matings so they can be monitored over numbers of years before it can be established that there is movement in the right direction - AND - that other genetic health problems haven't been inadvertently introduced.



THE CAVALIER BREED AT A CROSS ROAD


Davecav , as long as you now understand that for our Cavalier Breed around 90% have CM .

That 85 Whelps Researched for the Foetal Tissue Research, all had CM.

That us who truly love the Cavalier Breedand don't want to let it go because CM / SM is so Prevelant since it is likely that Several or Many Genes are involved .

This is a Complex Condition,nowhere on the Market are there DNA Tests for a Complex Condition.

We should now accept this ,and be Exploring each and every Option ,how -ever Unacceptible some of those Options might be to some.

Also it must be remembered that for nearly 30 years the MVD Problem has been in the Cavalier Breed .

It is now being said by the Researchers that their MVD Condition is no better than it was 18 years ago.

I for one don't want it to be said that because of the CM/SM Problem in Cavaliers ,that Cavaliers are being subjected to a Life of Suffering and Misery because some-folk are Blinkered that they won't explore other Options to stop this Happening .

How can those Cavalier Breeders Breed Cavaliers who have not got the CM Genes.

This is the $64,000 Question.

Bet

Margaret C
9th July 2011, 02:21 PM
We have breeding guidelines devised by researchers that have spent years studying specific health problems in Cavaliers. Unfortunately some people seem to feel they know better than the experts.

Very few breeders actually follow either the MVD or SM guidelines in their entirety. Some adjust the age requirements because it suits their convenience, or use an untested dog because they think their breeder's intuition will allow them to double guess what a health check would reveal.
Then they announce that the guidelines don't work for them.

If guidelines that experts give us are not followed properly then they can never be shown to work.

In some ways these half-hearted breeders undermine the efforts to reduce the health problems more than the out-and-out refuseniks. They give the non-scanners the ammunition to declare that the guidelines have not been proved to work.

Rod has documented how the USA Cavalier Club has rewritten the MVD guidelines.
What was their justification?
Did they have any cardiology research to show that the old guidelines did not improve the problem when properly followed?
Had a leading cardiologist advised that less stringent criteria would achieve the same results?
Whose interests were they considering when they made that decision?

It shows an enormous arrogance when expert advice is rewritten by those with no relevant knowledge or training.

Margaret C
9th July 2011, 02:37 PM
Margaret,

The person with the 2 severe SM cavaliers and 1 A, were they from 3 different breeders or the same one? Did she have all 3 at once when she found out 2 had SM? Were the ones that were severe from show breeders or recognizable names?

The reason I'm asking is because after having a cavalier with severe SM, I would definately want my puppy from a breeder following the SM protocol. So I was curious if this is how she got the A etc.

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Sorry I missed this.

The owner told me she had two dogs, one had needed an operation because of severe SM. The other was scanned and had no SM.

She sent me the pedigree of the Grade A dog, non-show lines, breeder was not a cavalier club member.

I doubt whether the breeder would have even known about SM four years ago. This was a lucky dog that inherited good genes from ancestors that were not from show lines.

I do not know the breeding of the affected dog.

RodRussell
9th July 2011, 04:30 PM
Rod,

I agree with being open but not at the risk of overall health. No question about underage, popular sire, etc. There are some breeders that have worked very hard for years in regards to hearts. You know them. Would those lines be sacrificed or should it be what you mentioned from Dr. Bell's article, and part of why a D CAN be breed to an older A. I'm talking of older not young A's etc.

Don't we want good and bad results posted? That's part of being open and can't be used to single out bad results.

Anne, you are way over my head. I must have missed a few posts, because I don't understand what you mean.

RodRussell
9th July 2011, 04:48 PM
...Rod has documented how the USA Cavalier Club has rewritten the MVD guidelines.
What was their justification?
Did they have any cardiology research to show that the old guidelines did not improve the problem when properly followed?
Had a leading cardiologist advised that less stringent criteria would achieve the same results?
Whose interests were they considering when they made that decision?

It shows an enormous arrogance when expert advice is rewritten by those with no relevant knowledge or training.

Just for the record, since you phrased your statements as questions: This is what the CKCSC,USA board recommended in April 2010: "the dog have a clear rating at two years of age from an auscultation by a board certified veterinary cardiologist". In October, after a major uproar from cavalier pet owners, they changed "two years" to "2.5 years".

The CKCSC,USA had no cardiology research to support its decision to water-down the MVD breeding protocol. In fact, at about the same time, Dr. Kvart issued a report showing that Sweden's watered-down version had failed to work.

So, the CKCSC,USA obviously had (and has) no cardiologist advising it.

Whose interests would benefit? I think at the time of the decision, back in April 2010, the board had forgotten that its 1998 predecessor had endorsed the real MVD protocol, and it thought that it was breaking new ground when it issued its "recommendation". The board claimed that the club had never made any such recommendation before. So, to that extent, it was acting out of sheer ignorance, even though one of its members had also been a member of the 1998 board which had unanimously endorsed the protocol.

Considering the fanfare with which the April 2010 board announced its recommendation, I think it was a band-aid attempt to appease the pro-PDE crowd. The board's "recommendation", as pathetically weak as it is, is not mandatory and is not enforceable in any way.

Karlin
9th July 2011, 04:55 PM
I will say again.........
The efforts of those that do everything are not good enough to outweigh the relentless production of puppies from non-scanned underage cavalier parents owned and bred by other Cavalier Club members.

It is time that the ordinary members demanded that the Cavalier Club toughened up on those that break the breeding guidelines and put the dogs, rather than a few commercially minded breeders, first.

Yes: this is reality. Pretending the problem is not massive and does not require breeders who FULLY follow protocol and do health testing, or wishing to ignore the hard facts that the serious threat to this breed goes way beyond the efforts of the current group of dedicated, health testing breeders (which as Margaret truthfully says -- is tiny in the scheme of things)-- or even of the clubs or KC -- means breeders need to be encouraging many hundreds of others to step up and test and follow protocols. I think the ONLY way this will ever happen, TBH, is if there are hard requirements for registration from international clubs and KCs, and backing that up, national legislation that gives consumer protection and breeder liability if they breed affected dogs and did NOT test (as we must recognise the genetic reality that even with the best and healthiest dogs, these genes are now so endemic that the goal is more to reduce incidence and severity of MVD and SM, not eliminate either anywhere in the foreseeable future).

Personally I can think of several situations where breeders who are health focused have almost ALL made exceptions: bred dogs under 2.5, bred when they didn't MRI at or after 2.5, but only as puppies; bred without knowing full heart info on the breeding dog and both parents of each dog, bred by breeders who never had a specialist read the MRI and assign a grade but decided their dog was an A (especially in the US: be VERY careful of claims by breeders that they have A dogs in the US! Unless Dominic Marino or another participating specialist has given an actual grade on the cert. Personally there is only one breeder I would trust to be able to read her own certs and assign a grade, and it is not many of the ones currently claiming clear A dogs -- I'd like to see the actual grading certs for those claims). Shortcuts and exceptions are made ALL THE TIME even occasionally by many of the health focused breeders. I also wonder how many breeders who breed an A dog at 2.5 go inform their puppy buyers (pet or breeder) if that dog then comes down with symptomatic SM, not least in order to prevent those offspring other breeders bought from being used or highlighting they need to be tested, etc. Too many breeders sell dogs with out limited registration so pet owners can breed. Few in the UK have neuter contracts.

The temptation for even good dedicated breeders to fudge the protocols can be very high due to a range of factors and pressures -- even some of those seen as leading in the health area. For that reason too, Margaret is right to challenge all breeders to be sure they are REALLY doing *all the time* what they should be doing or say they are doing (and whether this is not what is affecting some of their results) -- and to say to them, only you can decide who runs the clubs and what message goes out to the broader breeder world. Right now much of that public challenge is left to a tiny handful of individuals some of them not involved in the clubs, some of them people forced out or effectively removed from club positions and roles in which they tried to change things. It takes bravery to speak out from within the club but the dogs will not have a chance if more health-testers do not become their vocal advocates.

The majority of the existing health testing crowd failed to adequately support the only prominent spokespeople for health they had. Some did -- but not enough. As a result, the same small group voted and the committees are now full of people well known as the deniers of any significant problems in the breed, who have fought to keep health results hidden and private.

I have not seen the knowledge of the daunting nature of these health issues in the breed cause donations to researchers or support for testing breeders decline. Exactly the opposite: as the true catastrophe of the situation has emerged, donations have massively increased as has scanning by breeders, many of them people who doubted there was a serious problem only a few years ago. More breeders who used to fudge with some dogs, won't do so anymore. And more and more puppy buyers are acting by only working with breeders who test and follow protocols. And more breeders are working together, scanning, talking. But the pace is currently far too slow to save this breed, as I think almost any researcher anywhere in the world will agree right now.

The problems are very serious. Downplaying them will make the problem worse, as buyers and breeders convince themselves it doesn't really matter that much of they don't stick to protocols, don't test this time around, take the word of another breeder rather than ask for certs, etc.

anniemac
14th July 2011, 04:20 PM
Anne, you are way over my head. I must have missed a few posts, because I don't understand what you mean.

I have no idea what I meant. I deleted my post because I thought about it and not important. Karlin post should have been last one

Pat
14th July 2011, 05:29 PM
Actually, Anne, I thought you had made some good points!

Pat

anniemac
14th July 2011, 11:36 PM
Coming from you Pat, that means a lot. I can't remember exactly what I said but here goes. I think it’s important to look at overall health. Of course CM/SM is a major issue but so are other health conditions and by looking to puppy farms for “fresh” genes but may risk more MVD, luxating patellas, eyes, and hips would be doing harm. These can also cause extreme pain.

Margaret said


“Overall there probably will be more MVD in non-club member dogs as less knowledge of heart problems will mean more young stock with heart murmurs will have been bred, and there is probably going to be more eye, hip and patella problems, but will they be so badly affected with Chiari Malformation and SM?”

We don’t know the answer to the question of if they will be more or less affected with CM/SM. I know some that come from puppy farms and others responsible breeders. I do know there are tests a breeder can do to help reduce these other conditions.

I would want a puppy that the breeder did not focus on just one thing but would look at all the genetic problems. Downplaying these in order to solve the problem with CM/SM, is not a solution. Sure it will be hard to find an A to A scanned, great heart lines, patella, hip, eyes, EF DE/CC but that is why I would consider a puppy from one that is a D with excellent heart lines, etc. but with an older scanned A cavalier.
There are some great breeders that have been working to reduce MVD in their lines and it would do harm to remove them just because they were not “clear”. They could still follow the SM protocol as mentioned above.


Symptomatic CM/SM can be extremely hard to deal with but I was lucky to not experience early onset MVD, patella problems, eyes, etc.

In Laura Lang’s new book she stated that it is estimated that 75% of poorly bred cavaliers have luxating patella’s. The number is drastically reduced to very few from breeders that are responsible and testing. In the USA, these tests are much less expensive than the UK, but still if there was a test to help prevent passing on a health condition, why would one ignore it? I see Cavaliers in rescue with this problem because surgery can cost a lot and it is painful.

If you pull up Rod’s site, www.cavalierhealth.org (http://www.cavalierhealth.org/) the opening states Hip Displasia can effect up to 1 out of 3 CKCS.

As far as Dr. Bell’s articles, I think this quote sums up what I think is important and why only breeding “clear” Cavaliers is not a solution.

http://www.tualatinkc.org/pdf/Responsible%20Breeding%20Management%20of%20Genetic %20Disease.pdf

(http://www.tualatinkc.org/pdf/Responsible%20Breeding%20Management%20of%20Genetic %20Disease.pdf)“Without genetic tests, the effect on selection on the gene pool is minimal. With genetic tests, if
everyone decides not to breed carriers, it can have a significant limiting effect on the gene pool.
“Do not throw the baby out with the bath water” BREED TO A NORMAL
Breeders must consider all aspects such as health, temperament, etch
Without test:
Breed higher risk individuals to lower risk individuals. Replace the higher risk individual with
its lower risk offspring. Repeat until the risk is minimal.”

RodRussell
14th July 2011, 11:51 PM
... If you pull up www.cavalierhealth.org (http://www.cavalierhealth.org/) the opening page has in big print Hip Displasia affects 1 out of 3 CKCS.

Not quite. It says "Hip dysplasia reportedly afflicts up to one out of every three cavalier King Charles spaniels." That makes a big difference, due to how those statistics are kept.

anniemac
14th July 2011, 11:54 PM
Not quite. It says "Hip dysplasia reportedly afflicts up to one out of every three cavalier King Charles spaniels." That makes a big difference, due to how those statistics are kept.

Sorry. It still is something that can be screened for. I am not a breeder so I don't make the decisions on how to handle genetic conditions, but if there are tools to help, then I would want a puppy from a breeder that uses them.

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RodRussell
14th July 2011, 11:55 PM
...In Laura Lang’s new book she stated that it is estimated that 75% of poorly bred cavaliers have luxating patella’s. The number is drastically reduced to very few from breeders that are responsible and testing. In the USA, these tests are much less expensive than the UK, but still if there was a test to help prevent passing on a health condition, why would one ignore it? ...

Here is a scenario: The bitch has a grade 2 or 3 (out of 4) luxating patella. She also meets the MVD breeding protocol and is an "A" under the SM breeding protocol. What to do, Anne?

My guess is the breeder would look for a stud with good patellas and mate them.

RodRussell
14th July 2011, 11:57 PM
Sorry. It still is something that can be screened for. I am not a breeder so I don't make the decisions on how to handle genetic conditions, but if there are tools to help, then I would want a puppy from a breeder that uses them. ...

But you know how certain people will jump on a quote like that.

anniemac
15th July 2011, 12:01 AM
Here is a scenario: The bitch has a grade 2 or 3 (out of 4) luxating patella. She also meets the MVD breeding protocol and is an "A" under the SM breeding protocol. What to do, Anne?

My guess is the breeder would look for a stud with good patellas and mate them.

Not be a Breeder! I think chic emphasis is not to breed. However, since it says that luxating patellas is very low with well breed cavaliers, I would hope not an issue.

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anniemac
15th July 2011, 12:07 AM
But you know how certain people will jump on a quote like that.

Why? Bottom line creating additonal problems with mvd to reduce cm/sm however is not something I agree with. Forget it. I said it better before

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Bet
15th July 2011, 10:43 AM
Why? Bottom line creating additonal problems with mvd to reduce cm/sm however is not something I agree with. Forget it. I said it better before

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THE CAVALIER BREED AT A CROSS ROAD


Anne, could you plese tell me how a Cavalier Breeder can Breed away from CM when around 90% of Cavaliers have the Condition ,there are Several or Many Genes involved ,it is a Complex Condition and there are No DNA Tests on the Market for a Complex Condition.

It has been said in the Latest Veterinary Paper that Selective Cavalier Breeding will be Difficult to Elimate the Genetic Risk for SM because the Disease is Complex and the Prevalance of the Determinant Genes within the within the Cavalier Population is likely to be High

Do you know how many Cavaliers MRI Scanned A also had CM.I think this is a Question that should be being asked.

Bet

Davecav
15th July 2011, 07:41 PM
THE CAVALIER BREED AT A CROSS ROAD


Anne, could you plese tell me how a Cavalier Breeder can Breed away from CM when around 90% of Cavaliers have the Condition ,there are Several or Many Genes involved ,it is a Complex Condition and there are No DNA Tests on the Market for a Complex Condition.

It has been said in the Latest Veterinary Paper that Selective Cavalier Breeding will be Difficult to Elimate the Genetic Risk for SM because the Disease is Complex and the Prevalance of the Determinant Genes within the within the Cavalier Population is likely to be High

Do you know how many Cavaliers MRI Scanned A also had CM.I think this is a Question that should be being asked.

Bet

Bet, You are continually asking variations of the above question, of pet owners on this forum, including myself. How can we answer? we don't have expertise in this.
How can any of us pet owners know how many MRI scanned A also have CM? - If I were you, I would ask the researchers this. They will have the information.

Bet
15th July 2011, 08:17 PM
Bet, You are continually asking variations of the above question, of pet owners on this forum, including myself. How can we answer? we don't have expertise in this.
How can any of us pet owners know how many MRI scanned A also have CM? - If I were you, I would ask the researchers this. They will have the information.


THE CAVALIER BREED AT A CROSS ROAD


Working on This


Bet