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anniemac
8th July 2011, 02:48 PM
In the USA, we have the OFFA database. I have to disagree with Rod about the information not being useful for Cavaliers in regards to hearts. Maybe I am missing something. Going through the database, I have not come across one abnormal yet. But I have not looked at ages etc. The reason I am doing this is because I may want a puppy in the future (could be a year). Anyway here are my questions.

They have Cardiac either Normal- Practitioner or Normal Cardiologist. I guess I would only be looking at Cardiologist ones?
I saw one that had normal- Cardiologist, Echo. I am curious because I heard in other countries, they have more advanced Heart screenings. I heard Franch has Ultrasound screenings that is more accurate and a different scheme. I don't have any research reports, but I have heard that this has helped increase in age of onset of MVD. Why do we not have that?
What is Echo, what is doppler testing, why is OFFA not valuable with hearts?
Of course this is me just researching for my own information. When I actually get to the process of wanting a puppy, I will ask for certificates etc.

anniemac
8th July 2011, 03:44 PM
IMO, I feel that breeders who send in ABNORMAL results deserve praise also. One can't single out those that have negative results. It is because of submitting results, that more information is obtained. Just my personal opinion. It may be why some may fear of publishing results. Would people think badly of their breeding program even if they follow recommended protocols? I hope not!

RodRussell
8th July 2011, 03:50 PM
In the USA, we have the OFFA database. I have to disagree with Rod about the information not being useful for Cavaliers in regards to hearts. Maybe I am missing something. Going through the database, I have not come across one abnormal yet. But I have not looked at ages etc. The reason I am doing this is because I may want a puppy in the future (could be a year).

Funny about not finding an abnormal one yet, isn't it? Ever wonder why? Because the breeders only send in the good ones.

The problem with the OFA heart data is that a breeder could have a 9 months old cavalier tested by her general practitioner vet and get it onto the OFA database. So, you have to know how to read the code for each certificate to be able to determine how old the cavalier was when tested and whether the vet was a cardiologist or not. Very few prospective puppy buyers are that familiar with that code.

So, when the typical buyer goes to the breeder and asks if the parents' hearts have been tested, the breeder could hand the buyer an OFA heart test certificate that is many, many months old and which was performed by a non-cardiologist, and the buyer could be duped into believing that the breeder has followed the MVD protocol when in fact the breeder has done nothing of the sort.

One other thing that bugs me about OFA's heart list is that it refers to it as "congenital cardiac disease", which, of course, MVD is not. I have discussed this falsehood with OFA's director, to no avail.


Anyway here are my questions.

They have Cardiac either Normal- Practitioner or Normal Cardiologist. I guess I would only be looking at Cardiologist ones?

Correct.


I saw one that had normal- Cardiologist, Echo. I am curious because I heard in other countries, they have more advanced Heart screenings. I heard Franch has Ultrasound screenings that is more accurate and a different scheme. I don't have any research reports, but I have heard that this has helped increase in age of onset of MVD. Why do we not have that?

We do have that, but the MVD breeding protocol for the USA and UK does not call for echo screenings because:

(a) They cost more, thereby discouraging more breeders to follow the protocol.

(b) They are more accurate and can detect regurgitation through the valve earlier than can auscultation using a stethoscope.
This would mean that fewer cavaliers would qualify under the protocol. The geneticists and cardiologists who devised the protocol did not want to limit the number of breedable cavaliers more than their protocol would, because they wanted to encourage as many breeders as possible to follow it. The SM protocol is similar in this respect, since it allows cavaliers with SM (but asymptomatic) to be bred, and it allows dogs with only CM to be bred. Both of these protocols are compromises to avoid stricter limits on genetic diversity.

(c) Even with these efforts at compromise in devising the MVD protocol, 90+% of CKCS breeders in the USA have thumbed their noses at it, refuse to follow it, and thereby have continued to produce more and more litters of cavaliers contaminated with early-onset MVD.


What is Echo, what is doppler testing, why is OFFA not valuable with hearts?

Excuse me, but have you not read all about it at http://cavalierhealth.org/mitral_valve_disease.htm#--_ultrasound0 ?

sunshinekisses
8th July 2011, 04:00 PM
I love OFFA. I think it would benefit more if people sent in the fails as well. But you can research family lines and it will give you a better picture of the health of the line you are searching.

For hearts, only cardioligist cleared are good. If an echo has been done, even better, but with cavaliers very few breeders do this as they don't feel it is important. Auscultations will detect a heart murmer but the echo will give a better picture of the whole health of the heart. I like to see siblings and any prodigy results. Sometimes you can guess a dog hasn't passed if the dog has all tests listed but one. For example, for big dogs where hips are so important, if I see dog listed with heart, eye, elbow but no hip I assume they fail the hip. This is because an owner must sign for OFA to release the failed results. (They do not post fails without an owner permission)

What I have found with my research is some breeder do testing but do not send results to offa. I haven't figured that one out yet. But if you ask the breeder they will provide papers. Personally, I want a breeder that works with OFFA, as I feel it is important for the overall health of the breed. And I feel it is less likely for a breeder to lie about actually test.

anniemac
8th July 2011, 04:02 PM
I just started look at report I pulled so there are abnormal.

No, my brain can't absorb as much information. I think I will read it again. I need to read more before I post. Sorry!

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

sunshinekisses
8th July 2011, 04:18 PM
I wanted to add, to find ages of clearances, I look at birthdate of dog then the date of the test. OFFA has it all listed on their website, I don't think it is that hard to find. Hearts should be up to date (done the same year of the breeding).

My first cavalier's parents were heart clear but done in 2006 by the breeder's vet. My pup was born in 2007. The sire was not cleared in 2007. Fast forward to 2011, I now own the sire and had him checked by cardioligist. He has a grade 3 heart murmer. I believe he must have had a murmer in 2007. (I wasn't very smart about my research but I have learned since to never take someone word)

I did not do internet search when looking for my first cavalier but relied on breeder's papers. Yes, they had all the necessary paper work for a buyer to qualify for health.

If you are curious I can send you a pm with my cavalier's offa page so you can see where I went wrong.

RodRussell
8th July 2011, 04:57 PM
If OFA's heart certificates now clearly state whether the result was "normal" or not and whether the test was performed by a "cardiologist" or not, then that is progress on OFA's part. In the old days, that information was not as clearly stated and you had to be able to interpret the code for the number of months of age the dog was when tested and whether there was a "C" for cardiologist or not.

anniemac
8th July 2011, 05:07 PM
If OFA's heart certificates now clearly state whether the result was "normal" or not and whether the test was performed by a "cardiologist" or not, then that is progress on OFA's part. In the old days, that information was not as clearly stated and you had to be able to interpret the code for the number of months of age the dog was when tested and whether there was a "C" for cardiologist or not.

Rod, you can download a report and see several things. Including DNA being submitted to Canine Health Research, tested for



DEGENERATIVE MYELOPATHY


Not sure what this means.



EQUIVOCAL - CARDIOLOGIST



I think there are several possitives, but potential buyers have to do research either way.

Soushiruiuma
8th July 2011, 07:07 PM
It isn't necessarily that breeders don't send in failed test results, they also have the option of not displaying all results sent in. Hearts in cavaliers should expire annually the way eye tests do (they are gray instead of black to let you know the result isn't current), anything else is too complicated for a new user of the system.