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Nela
11th July 2011, 10:52 AM
I now have a puppy. Before you rejoice however, let me tell you that despite having wanted to buy from an awesome breeder with all bells and whistles, that was not the case. I know, I know. Trust me, I know. I don't want to get into the details because it angers and saddens me myself. Anyway, I made a 'selfish' decision when I was faced with 'It's this puppy or no puppy' and that is how I ended up with my puppy.

I have had him only for a couple of days now and felt too ashamed to tell you. Really, I figured I just wouldn't show my face here again but then I realized that I will really need the help and support because I do expect that I will be faced with heartbreak down the line. Basically, that's the only reason why I am pushing myself to post here right now.

Whilst it's really difficult to explain and comprehend the situation, the puppy will always get the care he needs. It's really odd for me to say this, but it's not about money even though it actually is. Basically, my boyfriend has no financial objections with treating a sick dog, but he had a problem with paying so much for a dog that couldn't be guaranteed to be free of the illnesses. In his mind, this breed meant health problems down the line one way or another. *Shrugs* I know it'll set many of you guys off. It did set me off as well. However, you don't know my boyfriend and he is a good man so please don't accuse him of being a terrible person. He just had a very different perception and I wasn't able to convince him otherwise.

Like I said, in the end, my own decision came down to having a puppy or not having one and I made a selfish decision at that point for my own personal reasons.

I have a little boy now. I named him 'Puck'. It's not an adorable name, but it's got a lot of significance to me.

Anyway, I am sorry for having done the breed such a disservice. It really was not what I had expected. I hope I can be allowed to stay for Puck's sake. Despite what has happened, we do love him enormously and we have every intention of giving him as good a life as we can while we have him. I had so looked forward to joining you guys as a cavalier owner but now I am so ashamed that I am scared to enjoy it despite feeling blessed to have this lil guy in my life. I'm quite conflicted really. *Sigh* This should have been a much happier post...

Blueroses
11th July 2011, 11:09 AM
Hello Nela, Im sure no one will say you cannot stay ! Im trying to understand your situation here. Is it that you bought from a breeder that does not health screen/check or is it that your puppy actually has a health problem now?



OK I think I understand now

Bet
11th July 2011, 11:14 AM
I now have a puppy. Before you rejoice however, let me tell you that despite having wanted to buy from an awesome breeder with all bells and whistles, that was not the case. I know, I know. Trust me, I know. I don't want to get into the details because it angers and saddens me myself. Anyway, I made a 'selfish' decision when I was faced with 'It's this puppy or no puppy' and that is how I ended up with my puppy.

I have had him only for a couple of days now and felt too ashamed to tell you. Really, I figured I just wouldn't show my face here again but then I realized that I will really need the help and support because I do expect that I will be faced with heartbreak down the line. Basically, that's the only reason why I am pushing myself to post here right now.

Whilst it's really difficult to explain and comprehend the situation, the puppy will always get the care he needs. It's really odd for me to say this, but it's not about money even though it actually is. Basically, my boyfriend has no financial objections with treating a sick dog, but he had a problem with paying so much for a dog that couldn't be guaranteed to be free of the illnesses. In his mind, this breed meant health problems down the line one way or another. *Shrugs* I know it'll set many of you guys off. It did set me off as well. However, you don't know my boyfriend and he is a good man so please don't accuse him of being a terrible person. He just had a very different perception and I wasn't able to convince him otherwise.

Like I said, in the end, my own decision came down to having a puppy or not having one and I made a selfish decision at that point for my own personal reasons.

I have a little boy now. I named him 'Puck'. It's not an adorable name, but it's got a lot of significance to me.

Anyway, I am sorry for having done the breed such a disservice. It really was not what I had expected. I hope I can be allowed to stay for Puck's sake. Despite what has happened, we do love him enormously and we have every intention of giving him as good a life as we can while we have him. I had so looked forward to joining you guys as a cavalier owner but now I am so ashamed that I am scared to enjoy it despite feeling blessed to have this lil guy in my life. I'm quite conflicted really. *Sigh* This should have been a much happier post...


NOT THE GREAREST NEWS.


Nela, I just don't how to answer your Post.


Bet

Nicki
11th July 2011, 11:40 AM
Well you are very brave to come back and tell us and of course we want you to stay.


**I know that this will raise strong emotions and many people will be very angry but this thread will be monitored closely so please be careful what you post**



I truly hope that something good can come out of this situation because you are able to speak out about what you have done, it might encourage others not to do the same.

I do feel sorry for your puppy, as you yourself say, it was a selfish decision and it has not given him the best chance of avoiding health issues. if I met your boyfriend I would like to describe the suffering I have witnessed personally with these beloved companions and tell him that by buying this puppy, he has just encouraged the breeder to carry on breeding and bring more unfortunate souls into the world. It's not just a matter of paying vet bills, it's the constant care, and the emotional drain on you, as you've already discovered, the love you have for these wee ones is overwhelming. That is the future for you and your boyfriend.


Yes health testing is not guaranteed - it dose however give your puppy the best chance of a healthy life.

Breeders who do not health test also often do not keep their breeding dogs in the best possible conditions or feed them well or give them regular veterinary treatment.


I truly hope that your puppy did not come from a puppy farm - actually many puppy farmers now charge similar prices to good breeders.




I do want to say that you should enjoy your puppy, and not let this totally overshadow your relationship with him. PLEASE make sure you take out insurance, if you search there is lots of information about insurance on here.

Again thank you for being honest enough to tell us, and I really do hope that you will be inspired to encourage others to support health testing breeders in the future.

sins
11th July 2011, 11:52 AM
Nela,
You're not the first and I doubt you'll be the last...
As you probably know..you've now relieved the breeder of the burden of an unsold puppy,taken the responsibility away from him/her and taken it upon yourself for the rest of it's life.
You're on your own with the puppy,probably no support from the breeder if anything goes wrong.
But,you're an adult and you've made an informed decision and we must all live with the consequences of our decisions,be they positive or negative.
Good luck with the puppy and above all else,just love him to bits!
Sins

BrooklynMom
11th July 2011, 12:01 PM
All I want to say is that I appreciate your honesty and what ever is done is done, so my opinion won't matter here. However, I just wanted to say that now that you do have your puppy, there is no point in us yelling at you or anyone, so I don't think we should.

Like Nicki said...get pet insurance (well, we all should!) and enjoy your moments. Maybe since you feel that what you did might not have been the best decision...use that energy to make a difference, to help educate others and to talk about your story (why you decided to go forward with this particular puppy vs. health tested parents, what research you did before hand, how you feel now, etc.). I actually think your story can create (if we let it, so please do!) a healthy conversation. A LOT of people are faced with this cross road. The "oh heck, she's so cute, I'll just get her" type of situation, so don't feel like you are alone...I think most people just won't admit it. So I appreciate that you did admit it, and now what? What will you do now to create the "conversation"...with new owners, with people thinking about buying a puppy, with yourself. That is where you are needed...not to defend yourself, but to explain to to help in the future for the many many people who will look at a cav and just, "fall in love", or "want to rescue it" or any other reason that makes us all forget our own intentions sometimes. You are only human, and so are a lot of us, so now you can use your learning to maybe help other prospective puppy owners overcome what might have overcome you.

I have no control over who stays on here or not, but I support you stay and I support that we support you (not your decision, but you and Puck) and that we continue to support one another, educate one another, and be there for one another.

Kate H
11th July 2011, 12:03 PM
It is such a tricky one, this. On the one hand, you don't want to encourage thoughtless, heartless, money-centred breeders to go on breeding. On the other hand, this puppy exists, and is it better for it to be bought by an owner who will take good care of it, or by someone else who knows nothing about health problems and at the first sign of problems could have it put to sleep? I have similar feelings about the rescue where I got Aled - they take dogs out of puppy farms - great; but they get the dogs on condition that they don't reveal the name of the breeder - who can then go on breeding more puppies and misusing more bitches who may eventually end up in the same rescue. It is a real moral dilemma, and people will come to different decisions.

But the most important thing now is your puppy, and ensuring that he has the best possible chance of a happy and healthy life. You have to take responsibility for your actions - as we all do - but please also enjoy your puppy!

Kate, Oliver and Aled

Muffin
11th July 2011, 01:08 PM
Hi Nela

Thank you for being honest but I donít quite understand what you mean.

Have you just bought Puck from a breeder who doesnít health test but has happy clean healthy looking dogs or is Puck actually ill already & from some kind of dreadful breeder with dogs in a terrible condition?

Have you seen his mother?

I have read hundreds of advertisements for Cavaliers the last few weeks & not seen one that has anything more than Heart Tested parents, the majority donít test even for that & non have had parents MRI tested for more sinister things, if itís the same in your country I can see that you felt like taking a chance if the puppy & the establishment looked ok.

I wish you luck with Puck & hope you will post a photo & keep us updated.

M

Nela
11th July 2011, 01:50 PM
Thank you everyone for having expressed your opinions in a polite and respectable manner. I understand that many people must be shaking their heads and having to refrain from truly saying what they feel so I appreciate that those who commented delivered their message in a civil manner.

Whilst I agree that this was a bad call, it was an 'informed' bad call if I may say so. We did not commit to the breed, we did the breed a disservice at that moment. However, I insist that you understand that we did commit to Puck. This was not a spur of the moment decision, acquiring a puppy I mean. I had done months of research, looking into various breeds etc. trying to find a puppy that my family would fit and vice-versa.

I politely (and with absolutely no intention of offending) reject the following statement:
"I do feel sorry for your puppy, as you yourself say, it was a selfish decision and it has not given him the best chance of avoiding health issues."

I am sorry but that I do not accept. Puck was already born. If he has health issues, he'd have had them whether we took him home or not. If something I did would directly give him syringomyelia or other, I would accept. However, that is not the case. Though we cannot prevent him from facing health problems now that he has born, we can be there with him every step of the way and give him the care he needs when he does. We may not have gotten him from an MRI-scanning breeder, but we have committed ourselves to him and to his well-being. Whilst we didn't make the best choice, it was still a conscientious one in the sense that he is dependent on us and we will provide. This is a puppy that will never be abandoned at a shelter because its owners failed to inform themselves of potential problems. There was already someone else lined up to take him but we were the 'better choice'. The breeder had absolutely no problem selling her puppies.


"Breeders who do not health test also often do not keep their breeding dogs in the best possible conditions or feed them well or give them regular veterinary treatment."

While that may be true, it was not in this case. This was a mother-daughter breeding program. The dogs (Puck's parents) come from top of the line breeders here in the Netherlands. The dogs were family pets and the daughter takes her own dogs to her mother's every day so that they would not be alone. The dogs were in great condition and 2 of them were rescues. She showed me their EU passports and some test results she had done a while back so it was obvious that she got them medical care. She cried when we took Puck home. We've been in contact with her and she has asked that we stay in touch and send her pictures occasionally. She gave us a small puppy kit, including his blankie (so he could smell them) and his favorite toy. She told us to call her anytime, no matter the hour, if we needed any sort of advice whatsoever. She also spent a good deal of time giving us tips about raising him up. She was a member of the Cavalier club but said that there is a lot of drama there now and with the breed having so many health issues and the club still trying to sort out details, it just became too much and so she was getting out of breeding and going to enjoy her pets as purely pets. (This I have heard from already 3 breeders directly, as well as many having a written statement on their websites. Many breeders are getting out of breeding cavaliers.)

Though my reasoning may have been selfish, I much prefer to see Puck with us than he be with some people that would toss him out if they discovered he is ill. You may not believe me, but we are a good family to our pets. I have been rescuing animals for years and know what a committment they are. In the end, what truly matters is that Puck is loved and is taken care of. No matter what happens, he'll always have a home and people who truly love him. I cannot change his past but I can give him a present and be by his side in the future.

pagep
11th July 2011, 02:09 PM
Nela- I would hope that I am not a member of a forum that would condemn anyone for doing something that many of it's own members may have done in the past, but probably would not be so quick to admit it. You have made a decision fully aware of the possible consequences, but have committed to giving this puppy all the love and care it will need. I don't feel that it is my place to do anything but welcome you to share your experiences and learn from the experiences of others on this forum.

I really hope that your puppy is spared the horrors of SM or MVD in the future -do your very best by him -if you do that, you will be doing a hell of a lot more than owners of healthy dogs of all breeds who neglect, abuse and abandon dogs to our overcrowded pounds across the world.

gamefanz
11th July 2011, 02:30 PM
Nela I want to say that I commend you for saying something to the group. I too have felt ashamed for buying a dog who's parents were not SM tested. I thought we were doing right by choosing a breeder who tests for MVD, eyes and Patellas. I have all the certs for the parents on these. I thought we did great at the time until I got home from giving a deposit and I went on a search for message boards to share my news and I found this board. It wasn't until I looked at the threads on SM that I felt a pit in my stomach. I tried going back to our 3hr conversation with the breeder trying to think if I just over looked that part of the conversation. I honestly don't know if it was discussed. I did immediately call the breeder and talk about it. She did inform me that none of her dogs were SM tested but have not shown signs of it and neither had their parents or any of the family. Sad to say but I put my head in the sand and took that and ran with it. I am very paranoid at anything I see with Toby now. We did get insurance for Toby and I cannot stress that to you enough, get it NOW!
It is very hard to admit that I was in denial and I am truly scared for Toby and for us. I am trying so hard to not worry about anything until its time to. I am trying to just love this dog and make sure he knows that I care. But I know that this will probably be a fact of life for our Cavalier and I have to face it head on. I can only hope this group will be there for me when the time comes and I am sure it will. I know we will need as much help as possible. I know I will need to take fact sheets to our vet as most don't know about SM. I want to give it to her in the next few months so she can be informed when the time comes.
I hope this group does not look down on me either. In the last few weeks I have seen many conversations that have made me scared to say anything. I really wanted to make friends with those that have Cavaliers and share all the great things that Toby does or the funny things he does. I hope I can still do this.
Good Luck with your Cavalier, Many hugs((())))
Becky

Margaret C
11th July 2011, 04:52 PM
I have had him only for a couple of days now and felt too ashamed to tell you. Really, I figured I just wouldn't show my face here again but then I realized that I will really need the help and support because I do expect that I will be faced with heartbreak down the line. Basically, that's the only reason why I am pushing myself to post here right now.

I'm so pleased you have stayed with us.


Whilst it's really difficult to explain and comprehend the situation, the puppy will always get the care he needs.

I am sure that Puck will get every care. I don't think anyone reading your posts would doubt it and you are right that there was nothing in your decision that would directly harm him. In fact he is a lucky little man to have such a well informed owner.


It's really odd for me to say this, but it's not about money even though it actually is. Basically, my boyfriend has no financial objections with treating a sick dog, but he had a problem with paying so much for a dog that couldn't be guaranteed to be free of the illnesses. In his mind, this breed meant health problems down the line one way or another.

Your boyfriend is not wrong about the likelihood of health problems down the line, nevertheless on financial grounds alone his decision may cost a lot more than the extra money paid for a properly health tested puppy.

Taking a chance and buying a less expensive puppy is why it pays breeders to not bother about the health testing. They can afford to sell their dogs cheaper.
That is why puppy farms continue to exist.

As you would expect I cannot help but be disappointed that you rewarded someone that knew about SM but did not get her breeding dogs checked.
Perhaps she is honest in her intention to stop breeding. If she does not MRI scan then I hope so.
I have heard many breeders in the UK say they will give up when frustrated at the expectation that they be more responsible about their breeding programme, but a year later they still have another litter of puppies.



Like I said, in the end, my own decision came down to having a puppy or not having one and I made a selfish decision at that point for my own personal reasons.

It was an informed choice, not the one I would have made, but then I have lived with dogs suffering with SM & MVD for years.
You reduced your chance of getting a dog that stays healthy, but it is the luck of the genetic draw and SM and/or MVD are not inevitable.
Your gamble may well pay off.

Puck is now a CavalierTalk pup and we will love him, want to admire his pictures, and rejoice with you at the happiness he will bring to your life.
It was brave of you to post and what is done is done.....So welcome to cavalier ownership & I hope you can now relax and allow yourself to enjoy your new puppy.

meljoy
11th July 2011, 05:16 PM
Nela,
Whats done is done....simple as that. You obviously care a great deal about Puck and will undoubtedly take exellent care of him for the rest of his life.
All you can do now is educate yourself fully to health issues in this breed and recognise them should they arise and treat accordingly. (Its what we should all do)
Dont waste your time with him worrying what "might" happen. Just enjoy the little chap and post some pics of him soon.
:smile:
Mel

Davecav
11th July 2011, 05:49 PM
I too hope your puppy has a healthy life. You are aware that this might not be the case, and you are willing to pay the expensive cost if this is not so (it could be very expensive, much more than the difference in price between an untested and a puppy from tested parents)

I think what you have been honest enough to say just highlights the colossal struggle that cavaliers are up against. Many people are trying to educate the public, and it seems to be falling on stoney ground.:( Maybe you can help here? because even the very knowledgeable people on this forum, including Margaret Carter, who I think gave you some names, were not able to persuade you to buy a pup from tested parents.

If you are able to throw some light on why all the explanations didn't stop you, and for that reason won't stop others doing as you have done, then maybe the people who are trying to save the breed can get their message across more successfully.

I am glad , at least that you bought Puck from someone who looked after their dogs and their pups well, and cared for them. (and it wasn't a puppy farm!)

Reptigirl
11th July 2011, 06:44 PM
While you are right that your pup was already born and he will be what he will be no matter who owns him. At least you are an informed owner and you have access to wonderful support and information here.

I really hope the breeder was honest. All too often I see breeders who "Are getting out of the buisness" and just like Margret said a year later they still have a litter. The "breeder" I got mine from said she was getting out of the buisness due to health and injuries. She "cried" over my pups terrible diagnosis... She "cried" when I made her watch the videos of my 6 month old puppy suffering in pain... But guess what? It's been exactly a year since we got our pup and she still has dozens of puppies for sale. At least (as far as I KNOW) she is no longer breeding cavaliers! She just expanded to other breeds.

I am in NO position to judge and you sound very well informed. That is what so many of us what.. informed owners AND breeders. While some may not agree with your decision it is after all your decision and you are the one that must be happy with it. I know so many people are hard on new owners because of where the puppies came from... its only because we care! In a perfect world if ALL new owners demanded health testing... breeders would have no choice BUT to health test... but we are not a perfect world. I too bought a puppy from a breeder who didn't health tests... I'm paying the price now...

I decided to buy the 1st Tri Color Cavalier I set eyes on. Not knowing the serious health issues in the breed. He is 1 year old and we are out about $5000 in medical bills for him. His monthly medication runs almost $100 a month. The worst part is watching him suffer at such a young age.

The MAIN benefit of purchasing from a health testing breeder is your chances of a longer lived dogs with LESS sever symptoms.

For example: I purchased my pup from a breeder with no health testing.... at 12 weeks old he had symptoms. By 6 months he had VERY SEVER in symptoms. His expected life span without invasive surgery is only a couple of years. While I wouldn't trade him for the WORLD and I love him dearly it is just heartbreaking on a daily basis.
His 4 year old dad is even worse (I managed to get the breeder to relinquish him to me). He has been given less then a year to live by his neurologist. He is the happiest little dog in the world and did not ask to be born with this condition but it is terrible and painful. He is also in the early stages of MVD.

I have now meet SEVERAL people who purchased from health testing/MRI scanning breeders... Not only are there dogs healthier but they seem to LIVE LONGER. While the risk of eventually developing SM is still there it helps to at the VERY least delay the onset of the disease. I would MUCH rather deal with a Cavalier who was affected by SM at say 8-10 years old then a 1 year old. Both dogs get affected but the older dog has a better quality of life. Dogs affected later in life can go on to live out there natural lifespan of 10-12+ years! While my dogs (who were affected young) have an expected life span of 4-6 years....

Aside from the financial drain of the long term medical care there is serious emotional drain involved. With 3 affected Cavaliers not ONE DAY goes by where I am not faced with SM symptoms and trying to manage them. All require medication 3X a day on a SET schedule. This means EVERY day is planed out between medications. 3 X a day (Every 8 hours) alarms are going off because if I'm late on medications they get set on a terrible course of painful symptoms that can take days to go away. Every dinner date or movie has to be planned around the dogs.

We really wanted to take a long vacation this year but decided in the best interests of the dogs that we DON'T. This is because of there strict medication schedule and there sensitivity to sudden change (humidity, pressure, temperature, excitement) I don't think it would be fair to take them OR leave them behind in the care of someone unfamiliar with the disease.

Then there is the physical state of the dog. Two of my SM dogs "dribble pee" uncontrollably. Not all the time. Only every now and then. My youngest has some ...lets say obsessive, protective/aggressive, behavioral issues... By talking to his vets and a few trainers the best conclusion we have come to is it is due to his neurological condition. Our neurologist basically said when you put that much pressure on the brain unexpected things like this can happen. It is a daily battle as it is triggered by the smell of food & drinks. Then try telling a 4 year old dog that he has a heart condition? LOL Thankfully they don't believe there is anything wrong with them! But over stimulation or over excitement is not safe for his heart conditions. So I have to always be aware of that. And finally the grooming situation! SM makes them more sensitive and any kind of grooming can be a real challenge.

I really do hope you pup is one of the lucky ones and never has to face SM, MVD or any other disorder. I'm sure many of us would like to see photos!!!

Reptigirl
11th July 2011, 06:54 PM
I think what you have been honest enough to say just highlights the colossal struggle that cavaliers are up against. Many people are trying to educate the public, and it seems to be falling on stoney ground.:( Maybe you can help here? because even the very knowledgeable people on this forum, including Margaret Carter, who I think gave you some names, were not able to persuade you to buy a pup from tested parents.

If you are able to throw some light on why all the explanations didn't stop you, and for that reason won't stop others doing as you have done, then maybe the people who are trying to save the breed can get their message across more successfully.


I just have to say I wonder this question ALL the time...

When I purchased my puppy the the answer was simple... I didn't understand the severity of the issue. I knew about MVD and other conditions (such as hips, eyes & knees). I did not know about SM. I THOUGHT I would "just deal with any issues when they arise" Sure I got my cavalier at a "great price" but boy have I paid for it in a SHORT period of time.
Had I read about SM I'm pretty sure I would have made the same decision only because the severity of the issue did not "sink in". I know statistics say "90% of cavaliers will have CM and up to 70% of then will develop SM". But it is really hard to believe it. Looking at a cute, cuddly & sweet puppy it is impossible to believe such terrible health issues could come up. It is not until the "I have been there, done that" that I truly understand. Seeing my poor dogs suffer is just heartbreaking... I KNOW I will never buy from a breeder who doesn't health test AND MRI screen. I LOVE my dogs unconditionally and would not trade them for the world. My days revolve around them but I can not live with the thought of paying a single penny to someone who is actively NOT trying to help this breed.

LovesJellyBeans
11th July 2011, 06:56 PM
Nela I want to say that I commend you for saying something to the group. I too have felt ashamed for buying a dog who's parents were not SM tested. I thought we were doing right by choosing a breeder who tests for MVD, eyes and Patellas. I have all the certs for the parents on these. I thought we did great at the time until I got home from giving a deposit and I went on a search for message boards to share my news and I found this board. It wasn't until I looked at the threads on SM that I felt a pit in my stomach. I tried going back to our 3hr conversation with the breeder trying to think if I just over looked that part of the conversation. I honestly don't know if it was discussed. I did immediately call the breeder and talk about it. She did inform me that none of her dogs were SM tested but have not shown signs of it and neither had their parents or any of the family. Sad to say but I put my head in the sand and took that and ran with it. I am very paranoid at anything I see with Toby now. We did get insurance for Toby and I cannot stress that to you enough, get it NOW!
It is very hard to admit that I was in denial and I am truly scared for Toby and for us. I am trying so hard to not worry about anything until its time to. I am trying to just love this dog and make sure he knows that I care. But I know that this will probably be a fact of life for our Cavalier and I have to face it head on. I can only hope this group will be there for me when the time comes and I am sure it will. I know we will need as much help as possible. I know I will need to take fact sheets to our vet as most don't know about SM. I want to give it to her in the next few months so she can be informed when the time comes.
I hope this group does not look down on me either. In the last few weeks I have seen many conversations that have made me scared to say anything. I really wanted to make friends with those that have Cavaliers and share all the great things that Toby does or the funny things he does. I hope I can still do this.
Good Luck with your Cavalier, Many hugs((())))
Becky
To both you, Becky and Nela, I know how you feel. I didn't know about SM until after I got Jelly Bean. And when I found out about it I was devastated. Not only for the possibility that he might/would someday develop symptoms, but the fact that I could have done better research before I got him and possibly saved myself the emotional trauma it caused. I thought that I was doing everything I could to make sure I'd be getting a healthy pup. The parents were all MVD tested, eyes, and patellas too, and his mom's mother was still at the breeders and at 5 years still tested heart sound. Though, I later found out that JB's Mom was just over a year-old when bred. I try and count myself as a smart person, but I fell into the trap of falling in love with the pup and jumping at the first opportunity to get my own dog. I have done the best I can to ensure that JB will have the best life possible (he definitely gets enough love), and I got pet insurance for him to make sure that I can pay for any of the issues we might have down the line because I neglected to do better research early on.

I would say that we as Cavalier owners can't blame the new owners of these precious dogs. It shouldn't be on them to know all of these things beforehand. Yes, they should research, but really it comes back to the Breeders doing the right thing and doing the health testing. They are the ones bringing these pups into the world, they need to take responsibility and ownership of this breed's problems and make it their business to produce healthy pups. It is not entirely the new owner's fault for wanting the sweet and gentle, not to mention beautiful, Cavalier, especially when a lot of this problem seems to be fueled by the greed of some shady people out there.

Nela, please enjoy your puppy. Don't let the worries about his future cloud the fun of having such a bundle of love to play with each day. He's only going to be a pup for such a short time, so enjoy it. It is a unique opportunity, and yes you will probably still feel guilt about getting him over the properly health-tested dog. But he's yours now so love him and please please please show some pictures of him while he's so adorable. You are educated about the breed's health issues, so at least if there is a problem you aren't going to ignore it or possibly let a vet shove it off as non-serious. Good luck with the potty training, and most of all have fun with Puck!

Nicki
11th July 2011, 07:28 PM
[QUOTE]I understand that many people must be shaking their heads and having to refrain from truly saying what they feel so I appreciate that those who commented delivered their message in a civil manner.

With everything we have been through, seen so many of our dogs suffering, and the heartbreak it has caused us, not to mention the financial issues, it was very difficult not to be angry. However being first to post, I wanted to set the tone so that this would give rise to a useful discussion, and not turn in to a slanging match. If you read many of the posts on the board, we always try to support everyone through whatever is going on with their dogs, the happy times but more especially the bad times.

Many of us spend hours and hours raising money, campaigning and trying to raise awareness of health issues, helping people to find good breeders etc - so this feels a bit like a slap in the face - I'm sure you can appreciate that.

There are some excellent replies here, and I really hope you will reply to Davecav's post - we are obviously doing something wrong and it would really help to know how we can improve.

Davecave: I think what you have been honest enough to say just highlights the colossal struggle that cavaliers are up against. Many people are trying to educate the public, and it seems to be falling on stoney ground.:( Maybe you can help here? because even the very knowledgeable people on this forum, including Margaret Carter, who I think gave you some names, were not able to persuade you to buy a pup from tested parents.





However, I insist that you understand that we did commit to Puck.
I'm very pleased to hear this - and I'm glad that this has been made clear. Too many times, as soon as the dog becomes ill, they are just dumped into rescue.



I politely (and with absolutely no intention of offending) reject the following statement:
"I do feel sorry for your puppy, as you yourself say, it was a selfish decision and it has not given him the best chance of avoiding health issues."


I did not word that as well as I could have done - I was trying to say that you had not given ANY puppy you brought in to your home the best chance of avoiding health issues.

I appreciate that Puck was already born and understand that you are committed to caring for him - as you say, he could have gone to someone who would not have taken care of him.

It is such a shame that his breeders failed to MRI scan, when they do seem to really care about the breed and their dogs - these are the people we need to be encouraging to MRI scan and to then carry on breeding, following health protocols. I hope you took the opportunity to talk to them about Syringomyelia and MRI scanning.


I hope you will stay with the forum, you are most welcome and we look forward to seeing photos of Puck and hearing about him. It will also be a most useful resource for you - and we hope that you will help us in getting the message out.

Have a look at this site too http://cavaliermatters.org/cavaliermatters/

ourempire
11th July 2011, 09:22 PM
Nela - Thank you so much for being honest.
I am sure your puppy will get a good life with you, and we are here to share your ups and downs.
Hopefully there will be a majority of ups and happy moments to share.
:hug:

Desrae
12th July 2011, 12:10 AM
I hope that flaming doesn't begin, a thread like this reminds me of flamebait... it also reminds me of another thread started a couple weeks ago by a member who is no longer with us. I don't know, tiz strange- I just get a really strange feeling from this thread, sorry, just have to say it. (Although the interaction between everyone has been very civil and with great consideration and understanding.)
Good Luck with your puppy and of course we won't ostracize you for it.

StillPooh
12th July 2011, 12:41 AM
Woulda, shoulda, coulda- a game everyone plays and is made miserable by.

Nela, your baby was already born, it's not as if you commissioned his breeding. You are committed to giving him whatever care he may come to need. You love him.

It's the most any pup can wish for. Now, I have a very important question for you:

where the heck are the pictures? :lotsaluv:

dandelos
12th July 2011, 02:06 AM
Puck is happy to have found a home with you! I assume Puck did not come from the breeder who showed you counterfeit medical reports (I think you had mentioned this in another thread)?

Blondiemonster
12th July 2011, 02:10 AM
Hello Nela. Dag Nela. Ik kom uit Belgie. :) Heb je hem naar puck van de petteflet genoemd? Ken je dat boek van annie mg shmidt? Anywho back to english :) i think you are brave for sharing. It cant be easy in holland to find someone who mri's. I personally wouldnt buy a puppy from a non scanning breeder since i see how stressful this can be after an impulsive buy myself 4 years ago and ending up with .. Guess what? A dog with SM. But i sorta understand. Enjoy your puppy.

Zumie05
12th July 2011, 03:15 AM
I just wanted to say welcome to Cavalier Talk and you are very brave. It must feel so much better now knowing we are all here to support you knowing the "truth". Among your friends, family, and acquantinces, you can now help show off your Cavalier and educate others about them. Everywhere I take Coco I am asked where I got her from, etc. I take every opportunity I get to talk about this breeds' problems and what we can do as buyers to help.

Karlin
12th July 2011, 05:15 AM
It cant be easy in holland to find someone who mri's.

Actually, it is not hard at all. This point was made when advice was sought about finding a breeder who health tests in Holland in the first place. It was noted that this is one of the BEST countries in which to find scanning breeders, because there is a very large group of breeders around the Netherlands who have been working with Clare Rusbridge for years and have several generations now of scanned dogs bred according to the SM protocol. Margaret passed along a list of these contacts. The Dutch breeders have been central to SM research for many years now -- at least 6 -- and their results have given very strong evidence that breeding AxA produces a high degree of A puppies. Breeding AxD produces a smaller number. Breeding DxD has not amongst that group produced any As as far as I know from recent statistics. Sins posted the statistics in a recent thread that is quite relevant to this one.

She also noted that the cost of a puppy from a scanning breeder in the UK is all of about £100 more than from a non scanning breeder and in many cases is the same.

The deductible for a single visit to the vet or neurologist if someone has insurance is about £50 on average. So two visits to the neurologist and you have already begun to lose out .

Every puppy of course deserves to be loved but no one should then bend logic to argue that a particular cavalier puppy needs to be given a home simply because it has been born. If one person didn't buy it, another would, and would love it just as much. I have yet to see a home that didn't love a cavalier puppy wherever it came from. Nor do breeders often end up with unsold puppies -- they just reduce the price till they are gone. But supporting breeders who do not health test and worse -- breeders who knowingly decide not to, in a country that has extremely cheap MRIs (lower even than the UK for cavalier breeders!) is like kicking this breed in the stomach (actually a better metaphor, given the hideous pain of SM, is in the head). Buying from a poor quality breeder sends a loud and clear message that breeding for health matters zilch because some -- most -- buyers will always buy the puppies eventually. Why should breeders bother with health at all, if even informed buyers choose to abandon any concern for health in either an individual puppy or the breed?

The purchase of an individual puppy is never an isolated incident that can be rationalised as a personal, private decision that does not affect the breed or other puppies. It has direct impact on so many levels as has been discussed here so many times.This poor breed has many admirers and too few real friends. This time, the breed yet again, lost. That can only happen so many times before the game is over and cavaliers are a memory.

Please do not say this the breeder who lied about the heart certs.

Nela
12th July 2011, 09:17 AM
Like I said, I had every intention of buying from an MRI-scanning breeder. We called the breeders on the list that Margaret gave us that were still breeding. (I believe one or two stopped from that list though I did have a few extra MRI-scanning breeders so I might be confusing them - I didn't think to note them but I can probably look in my notes to see if I wrote anything down so you can edit your list for future reference) No one had any blenheim girls and the lowest price found was 1000 euros for a boy. I, myself, would be willing to pay that price for a puppy. However, that decision wasn't mine to make as I am solely dependent on my boyfriend (I do not work). The 1000 bothered him. He felt that was a lot of money (and I agree that it is a large amount of money just I don't see monetary value on living creatures) just to buy the puppy but then, on top of it, when he realized that we could still get unlucky and pick out a puppy that would eventually get SM anyway, there was just no convincing him. I guess he just didn't realize the value, nor the significance of the high percentage of cavaliers with SM. He did say that when they found out more, and could develop a test to screen them or make the chance of a cavalier getting SM almost non-existant, then he'd be more open to the idea. However, for him, at this time, he just didn't see the purpose in spending so much on the unknown. Though I understood that it greatly reduced the risk, it was not enough to convince him. It's very hard for me to understand myself because, on one hand, my boyfriend didn't want to spend so much on the initial price yet, on the other hand, he has every intention on giving him the best we could, which will be expensive and I expect vet care to be even more expensive since the parents weren't scanned. I don't quite comprehend his logic, all I know is that it came down to a straight 'no' as in 'Don't expect me to spend over a thousand dollars for a puppy'

Once faced with a categoric no, my decision came down to having a puppy or not having one. The wisest decision would most likely have been to stay away from cavaliers and look into another breed. The problem is, I was already absolutely smitten by this breed. I didn't want another kind of dog. I wanted a small companion that I could easily train and felt comfortable with. I wanted a kind of dog that really bonds with its people and is very friendly and easy-going. This is my first puppy and I really insisted on having a dog that is good for beginners and that wouldn't mind me being all over him because of my own personal issues. I haven't gone out on my own in over a year because of serious social anxiety resulting from a traumatic experience and simply refuse to medicate. I 'needed' this puppy and I admit, I absolutely panicked at the thought of not being able to have a dog. The dog was my last attempt at staying off the medicine. Of course, the puppy is primarily a family member but he does bring a whole lot more to me than being just a dog. This is what I mean by having made that decision as a purely emotional one on my part. Which, in the end, isn't too nice for a breed as a whole and it was really afterwards that it really sank in and I spent the rest of the time fighting back tears.

In the end, it wasn't a lack of information. I had my information, I had breeders, we contacted those breeders. I don't know if it was the unexpected prices, or him not really grasping just how seriously common the illness is or what... We just didn't see eye to eye on this. Unfortunately, that ended up with the breed getting caught in the middle. Again, I should have, could have, walked away from the breed but i made the selfish decision to experience the breed. Good and bad. I could only hope that if Puck gets ill, this will show my boyfriend exactly how serious it is and will get him to understand more in the future. Meanwhile, we will love Puck and give him the best on a day to day basis. I will cherish every moment with him and hope that I can make the best decisions for him in the future.

Ps: I think some breeders reacted very negatively to my boyfriend because he has a slurred speech and they automatically assumed he was heavily handicapped and could not care for a dog. This also set him off so maybe he just felt so uncomfortable calling that he wanted this to be over sooner than later and just got fed up of the whole thing which caused him to make more impuslive and emotional decisions. I don't know. I am still trying to figure out what happened because one minute he was onboard, the next he had completely changed his mind... Like I said, it's very hard for me to explain something I don't quite comprehend myself.

Thank you again for your kind, stern, but always polite and respectful words.

Nela
12th July 2011, 09:26 AM
Hallo Blondie,

Mijn Nederlands is niet goed! Mijn inburgeringscursus is heel slecht! Did we get him from...? I didn't understand sorry. I do not know the book. Does it come in english or french? :)


I will post Puck's pictures in the appropriate section. :)

Nela
12th July 2011, 09:38 AM
I forgot to mention but Puck's parents are over 5 years old (his grandpa was also on site and he's 9 and symptom free though he did have small cataracts but I thought this might be more related to being older?) and symptom free though I understand that this doesn't mean he is free of SM as well. Basically this breeder (from what she told me so of course this is only hearsay) was one that was waiting to see results to see if she'd get on board or not but got frustrated with things and decided to jump ship.

Karlin
12th July 2011, 03:53 PM
I understand you had intentions -- that is what is so sad and deeply frustrating about this situation. If an educated buyer is in the end swayed more by immediate gratification and the argument to themselves that they deserve a puppy enough that cost can override whether a breeder bothers to do adequate testing to give every puppy the best chance of a long and pain free life, then what hope does this breed have?

Right now, going on the examples set by most breeders and by the majority of puppy buyers, very little.

The Kennel Club in the UK has finally begun to recognise how truly stark the situation is by supporting some CKCS health initiatives that require public sharing of health results, rather than let many breeders do as they do now and continue as a secretive cabal.

I would have thought the direct and damning evidence of going to a breeder who handed over obviously forged health certs would have been the kind of stunning evidence to persuade anyone, no matter how indifferent or doubting, of the risks, the fraught situation for the breed where supposedly 'caring' owner/breeders lie and deceive, and of the duplicity of some breeders who breed for the money and obviously only wish to dump their puppies into the market as fast as possible. What that breeder did is prosecutable in most countries as fraud: a *serious crime*.

Instead in this case, knowing and observing all this first hand, and decrying it publicly in another thread, has galvanised a purchase! I simply cannot understand this situation. On behalf of the dogs, the breed, the board, those of us with sick dogs, the many here and elsewhere who donate money to Rupert's Fund and other CKCS health causes (the foetal tissue fund, Margaret's body donation fund, the DNA research, the MVD projects etc) even when they are often short of money for themselves: I cannot, cannot understand it.

I can however understand your guilt, but I find it truly insulting as the owner of this board that someone would then state the reason they wanted to confess was to have everyone support them if and when they end up with a sick dog, having totally ignored everything so many here work so hard for on behalf of the breed, and everything the site stands for. That is the additional slap in the face. I am sure it felt a relief to get the guilt off your chest publicly but the reasons stated for doing so are just as selfish as the original purchase. It isn't as if this was a rescue situation -- it was simply a cheaper purchase for immediate gratification in the face of all this breed suffers from, and direct support to that whole vile system that has damned this breed to so many health issues. For those of us with dogs suffering from SM and MVD, who have watched them die from these conditions, it is just beyond belief that an informed buyer would support such a breeder.

Go watch the videos I have on www.smcavalier.com (http://www.smcavalier.com) of affected cavaliers. That is what such a decision made knowingly ultimately says is OK.

No one here condemns the person who bought from a poor breeder because they were uninformed, knew nothing about the health issues, didn't realise there were problems or that breeders could so devastatingly exploit this breed, had never heard of SM, whose breeder avoided mention of the problems -- many of us began in that position because we trusted that all breeders care about their dogs and the breed, breed to high standards, are meticulous about health and keep their dogs in the home in loving surroundings. Sadly, not often enough true, any one of these things much less all.

Buyers control the future of this breed through where they choose to buy their puppies. Support the unethical, indifferent-to-health breeder that lives off excuses for not doing much about health, and the system perpetuates. It is why heart disease is endemic in the breed already and cuts several years off cavalier life expectancy. Now SM is moving into the same place. Puppy buyers cannot any longer dupe themselves into the believing the lie that the problem, this devastating, serious, horrific problem of two major appalling life-shortening painful health issues in this breed, is the responsibility of breeders alone. The problem lies with every single decision of where to buy a puppy as much as it does with the breeders.

If we don't care about where we buy NOW, the breed will NOT be here for our children to buy. Most of the researchers I have talked to feel that is about the viable timeline left for this breed if people continue to do nothing -- or actively support the continued spread of this problem by buying knowingly from breeders who do not scan and have no idea at all what the SM status of their dogs is (UK breeders have found about half their dogs scan with syrinxes at breeding age so the problem is simply massive).

Nela
12th July 2011, 04:01 PM
Got notice of this message from Muffin via my email but couldn't find it so I am cleaning up the html and reposting here to reply to it:

"Hi Nela
Thank you for being honest but I donít quite understand what you mean. Have you just bought Puck from a breeder who doesnít health test but has happy clean healthy looking dogs or is Puck actually ill already & from some kind of dreadful breeder with dogs in a terrible condition? Have you seen his mother? I have read hundreds of advertisements for Cavaliers the last few weeks & not seen one that has anything more than Heart Tested parents, the majority donít test even for that & non have had parents MRI tested for more sinister things, if itís the same in your country I can see that you felt like taking a chance if the puppy & the establishment looked ok. I wish you luck with Puck & hope you will post a photo & keep us updated."

Hi Muffin, I bought Puck from a breeder that doesn't scan and doppler test. He seems healthy but of course, that doesn't mean that he will always be. I did see both his parents (the mother owned one dog, the daughter the other, and they came from top of the line MRI-scanning, Doppler-scanning breeders) and they were in very good condition and they were older. The dogs had vet checks and were declared healthy and symptom-free but not tested in the full way they should. I had been able to locate some breeders that scanned and Margaret had sent me a short list as well though. Many had stopped breeding and those still breeding didn't have puppies available with the exception of one. However, like I mentioned, it was at a price the boyfriend was not willing to accept and the others were selling them for just as much and more as well. I cannot say that it was because we couldn't find scanning breeders.

Thank you. :)
Ps: Pictures posted in the puppy thread.

Nela
12th July 2011, 04:06 PM
Point taken. I will be leaving the forum effective immediately. I cannot ask anyone to understand. You are not me, you don't even know me, and you have no idea how difficult a situation I was and am in. I will not be seeking any additional help from anyone since it is obviously too painful to ask such a thing of anyone.

I wish you all the best with your dogs.

Nicki
12th July 2011, 04:22 PM
I hadn't read your other thread until today,

http://www.cavaliertalk.com/forums/showthread.php?38815-Your-Thoughts-About-to-See-a-Breeder


and I must admit I am truly shocked and devastated after everything you posted on there, and the support you received for making the correct decision ***AT THAT TIME***, that you went back to the SAME people and bought a puppy icon_devilicon_devil

You have not denied that when questioned outright, and the timing fits...


I have seen and heard of too many of this wonderful breed suffer in dreadful pain, have had years of stress with trying to help my own dogs, constant medication schedules which limit your own activity, spending hours researching the conditions and helping vets to learn more so that we can manage things together. It has all had a very negative impact on both my own health and that of my husband.

If you ever have the misfortune to hear a dog screaming with pain due to Syringomyelia you will finally understand why is it SO IMPORTANT TO ONLY PURCHASE FROM HEALTH TESTING BREEDERS. That noise goes right through you, you will never ever forget it. Of course not all of them scream, some scratch or rub themselves raw, they can't enjoy walks and the normal quality of life any dog has the right to expect. I lost my precious Ruby boy at the age of 6 as we could not longer manage his pain, in his earlier years he was the cuddliest dog you could ever meet - in his last year it was too painful for him to be cuddled, the only way he could receive affection was to lie across my lap, so we had the closeness without too much pain. I can't tell you how much that broke my heart :(:(


So many responsible breeders are giving up because puppy buyers are not supporting them - which is very sad, we need these people. It's not just up to the breeders, the puppy buyers are the most effective force for change.



Ok the health tests do not guarantee a healthy dog, but you must have seen the statistics posted by Sins on one of your other threads and hopefully shown them to your boyfriend. http://www.cavaliertalk.com/forums/showthread.php?38837-An-Honest-Question


it's true that breeders may have affected offspring from A to A matings.
Clare Rusbridge gave a presentation last October and the slides from it are available on the UK cavalier Club site.
http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/hea...out_images.pdf (http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/health/syringo/CMSM_CKCS_Club_without_images.pdf)
From the study done(see slide 23)

With A to A matings 15.4% were affected
A* to A* matings (A* being dogs clear of SM over 5) 7.7% were affected.
The figure of affected dogs from A to D dogs drops in around the 50% mark.
The study claims that where two affected dogs are mated all offspring were affected,although there are breeders who say that they are aware A's from two affected parents.
What many scanning breeders are trying to do is to mate an A to A where central canal dilation is not recorded on one or both parent's scans and /or to use the oldest or clearest parents available.
At this stage,people who have been scanning for a few years are only beginning to see if their own A to A matings have worked and if so, what's the difference between their scans and the A to A's who have produced affected offspring.
Mri scans are becoming so much more detailed and there's still a lot to learn and a long way to go before breeders can say what's worked and what hasn't.
But it certainly appears that an A to A can stack the odds in your favour of an unaffected puppy.



If you have researched the breed and are informed about their dreadful health problems then there is absolutely NO EXCUSE for still going out and buying a puppy from untested parents and breeders not following the protocol - even if you have to wait months for a puppy - it's not like going to the shops to buy something. They are even more special for waiting, for knowing that you have done the right thing by your puppy and most importantly, by the breed.


It's sad that your reason for coming back was the following

I figured I just wouldn't show my face here again but then I realized that I will really need the help and support because I do expect that I will be faced with heartbreak down the line

that makes those of us who give so much time to trying to help and support people feel totally used :(

Many people miss the symptoms of Syringomyelia and dogs suffer needlessly, or things are dismissed as quirky behaviours, so it is our responsibility as guardians for these wee ones to be aware of any changes in behaviour etc. Dogs DO NOT cry out for no reason - one of the may excuses given to explain why things are not investigated.



I do hope that your puppy will have a long and healthy life, sadly less and less Cavaliers are given that opportunity.

Nela
12th July 2011, 04:39 PM
Huh? I did not return to the same people. :-| Yes the timing fits, because it happened quickly. We got him on Tuesday, we saw the others on Saturday. I spent all weekend crying because when my boyfriend saw that those weren't good, we called the testing breeders Saturday evening and Sunday as well. When he heard how much they were, he categorically said 'no'. I can even give you a list of breeders we called. On Monday I had a major meltdown with everything else going on in my life and that's how we ended up going to see puppies on Tuesday. (And yes, we took him home from there as we had the house ready already and just needed to get a few things which we got with him) There are a few days in between. If I didn't answer, it is because I haven't answered everyone directly and I thought I had explained it in my first post. I just didn't feel like getting into details because I didn't find it worth it.

In the end, it really doesn't matter. There's just no point to me defending myself. I shouldn't even have to. We could have done everything perfectly and ended up with a sick dog. That is the reason why so many breeders are pulling out. MRI-scanning, doppler-scanning breeders are pulling out because A to A crossings are still producing SM puppies. This is what several breeders have told me themselves. Because it is such a devastating illness, those breeders have decided that they cannot continue breeding them until the true genetic hereditary cause is understood. Blast me as much as you want, but you are wrong to treat me like I am a bad person. The only thing I am guilty of is having anxiety so bad that I needed and wanted a dog so badly that I panicked when my boyfriend refused to pay for a proper tested dog. The thing I am guilty of is wanted a cavalier so badly despite not being able to get a properly bred dog and gettign one instead of looking into another breed.

When I got my boy, I knew what would come down the road and knew that I would face it with him every step of the way. Selfish, yeah I was selfish. You know what though? Puck won't ever complain about it. He won't ever disapprove of me having taken him in and loving him. That's all that matters to me at this point..

Nela
12th July 2011, 04:47 PM
Trying to close my account but can't figure out how. Where do I go?

anniemac
12th July 2011, 06:24 PM
The post topic says it all, "not the greatest news". When I get a puppy, I hope it will be THE GREATEST NEWS!!

Blondiemonster
12th July 2011, 06:35 PM
This forum is not the most forgiving when it comes to this kind of stuff. But pleAse dont run off now. There are thousands of people who do what you did and not ever admit it. I dont think its fair to make you feel badly. And its not fair for your dog to not hAve support.

anniemac
12th July 2011, 06:37 PM
It is very sad because I don't have a lot of money but I will travel wherever to purchase a puppy and support a breeder that is health testing. Sure, I might still have some health condition develop, but I know in my heart I did what is best for my future puppy and the breed. This is not an easy task and if I find it unattainable then I will get a rescue. Do you know how hard it is to be alone at night? Someone on Facebook offered to buy me a puppy. The breeder contacted me and told me how much she was in tears at this genuine gift. This person just wanted to help me with my pain. I of course said no thank several times, but she emailed me again. I found the breeders website. The mother gave birth a little over a year. Makes me sick. I could have a FREE puppy, or I could spend my time making sure I am supporting those that care about the future of the breed.

I know what I choose to do. If I get a puppy from a breeder who followed protocols and something happened, I would hope people would still support me and I know they would because I was doing my part.

anniemac
12th July 2011, 06:39 PM
This forum is not the most forgiving when it comes to this kind of stuff. But pleAse dont run off now. There are thousands of people who do what you did and not ever admit it. I dont think its fair to make you feel badly. And its not fair for your dog to not hAve support.

That is very true Lynn :o.

StillPooh
12th July 2011, 06:52 PM
This forum is not the most forgiving when it comes to this kind of stuff. But pleAse dont run off now. There are thousands of people who do what you did and not ever admit it. I dont think its fair to make you feel badly. And its not fair for your dog to not hAve support.As a relative newcomer, I must admit I find the public floggings to be rather off-putting. :(

Karlin
12th July 2011, 07:47 PM
I understand that people feel upset. But the board and most here on it have always had a specific health (and rescue) related focus. The board provides support for many, many owners of affected dogs. People who have told their stories throughoutthis thread, very powerfully, and elsewhere. The board is full of people who work many hours of their own time every week to improve the situation for a breed that is in very serious trouble. People who have endured public attacks in many places online and in the real world for their refusing to back down on health issues in this breed that so many of us love.

If Nela had not posted so many threads in which she asked for so much guidance and support to buy a puppy from a good breeder, if she had not received a wide range of positive support and detailed information, if she had not then posted in detail about how awful one breeder was in handing her faked health certs and how strongly she condemned this and had walked away, and had she not then taken in much support and praise from all for her strength of character and support for the breed, I think there would be less exasperation and disgust at the situation.

I am not going to pretend that this isn't a nauseating outcome for many of us. I will not just then say we all could make this mistake: we all have a conscience and can either use it or not and I don't have any time for those who knowingly don't use it -- especially after taking up so much time from many here who gave tons of support initially for finding a great breeder. If someone could go through all the steps that are there for anyone to read in several earlier threads and still turn away from supporting a decent breeder, helping this breed survive, and hand over money to a breeder whose actions state she cares little for the breed, then there truly is little hope to change the looming fate of cavaliers.

I know others may want to just ignore this and see puppy pictures. If so, then this is the wrong board to be on and I say that absolutely without apology.

StillPooh
12th July 2011, 07:55 PM
I know others may want to just ignore this and see puppy pictures. If so, then this is the wrong board to be on and I say that absolutely without apology.That is not all I want. I do, however, want a place where people are not self-righteously judged and attacked, and especially not by the board owner!!!

You're right. This probably isn't the right place for me.

From the member posting guidelines:
2) While a large degree of latitude is allowed for personal styles of expression, personal attacks, namecalling, and disparagement directed at other board members -- singly or collectively -- is not acceptable. This includes sending offensive PMs to board members, or email through the board that I consider to be offensive or overly distressing to the recipient.

anniemac
12th July 2011, 08:24 PM
That is not all I want. I do, however, want a place where people are not self-righteously judged and attacked, and especially not by the board owner!!!

You're right. This probably isn't the right place for me.

From the member posting guidelines:




I think what Lynn (Blondiemaster) said about many people doing what Nela did and not saying anything is sad but true. This thread does seem a bit personal because I think it is not just about Nela but about people who have been trying to educate and do for the breed and in reality there are several people that are like her. I did not want it to be personal but you have someone like Nicki, who is the most caring person and in my opinion not self-righteous at all, but spends all her time involved in helping this breed it probably is upsetting to hear. She even said at the cost of her own health. She is not saying these things to give attention to her good deeds, but because I am sure it is upsetting.

I hope Puck lives a wonderful, healthy life and I am sure people will still help in the future if it comes down to it, but I can see why it can be personal to some people. I have said before that my friend would rather get a puppy cheaper, knowing what Ella went through, and get insurance. It really hurt me personally. I don't think it is just about Nela but about frustration on trying to help educate pet buyers in general.

ourempire
12th July 2011, 08:40 PM
Anniemac - well said. This debate is heating up now. The thread and the story developed through the day, and sadly the discussion is necessary. Do we care about animal welfare and our dogs or not? If we do, we have to distinguish between being unlucky/getting a rescue and knowingly buy a potentially sick dog from a puppy farm/unauthorized breeder.
I have a deep respect for Karlin, Margaret and all the others working hard for the breed. This forum is helpful to a lot of cavaliers and cavalier owners, and therefore I understand the anger and disappointment, when their work is ignored. It happens, every time people think, they are doing the dog a favour, when they buy from an unauthorized breeder. Every time, people feel sorry for a dog or falls in love, and it happens all the time.
In Denmark we are having huge problems with imported dogs of mostly small breeds from Eastern Europe. There have been some horrible news stories, where the puppies had to be put to sleep at the border, when they were being smuggled in, and the smugglers didn't want to take responsibility for them. News stories, where new dog owners tell about their visit to a breeder, where they had several breeds and ages in a nearby stable, and where the dogs are both sick and unsocialized.
Therefore: We have to acknowledge the work done by Karlin and the others, if we truly love our animals.

Karlin
12th July 2011, 09:21 PM
personal attacks, namecalling, and disparagement

This is a discussion brought about by the person in question herself acknowledging to people that she had done something she herself confesses was appalling. There is no personal attack, namecalling or disparagement -- there is criticism of actions she has admitted were wrong, that came on the heels of asking many here to give advice and support. There is bafflement that there is also defense of such actions at the same time. It is the action which has been bemoaned -- but that action is also inseparably tied to the person who took those actions. Every post here that is critical, has been critical of the decision and actions. There really is no other way to talk about them. And honest feedback was asked for.

Anyone who has been a member here for any length of time knows I allow a lot of leeway on discussion amongst members and that if I see them, I do cut off discussions which call people names and make personal attacks etc. I do not consider this discussion at any point to be one that fits that category, even if it is uncomfortable and the pain many here feel at the choice made by the original poster is obvious -- a lot of us feel let down because the decision lets down the breed and everything so many here work hard for, but more specifically, goes directly against all the original poster as recently as a few days ago said were her strongest values and the basis of all decisions she would make in getting a puppy. The discussion does not say 'you are horrible' but says 'you made a decision which is horrible for the following reasons, and many of us cannot understand it, especially due to personal experience with what these cavalier illnesses mean'.

The original poster says we cannot know her and cannot understand her reasons, yet we have many long threads full of detail from the poster explaining her thoughts, reasons, intent and then, decision to wait to get a cavalier until she could support a good breeder and see if some of the health research would be more advanced. All we can go on is the detail that was supplied from the person herself and then was utterly reversed in a final decision she herself knows was wrong. The decision was hers at all times and we were given the option to respond to it in a thread tellingly entitled 'Not the greatest news.'

Past posts from Nela:

In reply to Anne being disturbed at a friend saying to buy a cheaper dog and just get insurance in case things go wrong:


Oh dear... Buying cheap to cover with health insurance? That is insane. You should be buying to ensure no puppy suffers under your care (prevent it as much as possible at least), point finale. If money is such a big issue, maybe that person shouldn't get one. :bang:

I saw puppies for 450 here. The ad said that the parents are tested, the pups are vaccinated and dewormed. There was no mention of registration or not, they aren't microchipped, price is lower than I would expect but we contacted the breeder to find out more, just in case. However, I highly doubt this is a breeder that can produce documents showing that the parents have been scanned etc. I also doubt that they will have a pedigree and be registered. My boyfriend doesn't want to spend too much, but he does agree that the puppy needs to be healthy.

In my opinion, I would rather support the breed by buying from a good breeder and preventing a puppy from suffering and encountering health issues as much as possible. I'd rather pay a bit more now and get a healthy, happy puppy, than pay less and end up with a miserable puppy and expensive vet bills.

Would people who carried serious illnesses reproduce and have children, knowingly passing this on to the child, just because you can take a child to the hospital? I mean really...

I sure your friend doesn't get one.

On waiting to get a cavalier:


Meanwhile, there they were telling me how much they love their dogs and the breed. They even went as far as telling me how they would put their dog to sleep if one were to get ill with syringomyelia because they could not bear to watch a dog suffer. I sat there, wanting to smack them, wanting to yell at them, wanting to curse...


It was absolutely heart-breaking. I think I would prefer to see some dim-wit breeder that knows nothing and breeds for the heck of it than sit there and listen to someone who clearly knows what they should and actually choose to do what they tried to do. Hard as it was to leave those puppies there, I knew that 'saving' one would only encourage things to continue and risk us suffering a major heartache and financial loss and ruin our first experience with a dog.

On the other hand, this visit was very helpful. We know we did the right thing, and to me, that means we are ready for dog ownership. It also gave me contact with the breed, allowing me to see how they are in person. Despite the dumb humans, the dogs were truly wonderful. It also showed me that everything I told Jeff about the importance of a proper breeder was heard and absorbed. He looked for faults just as much as I did and realized that maybe we needed to start looking differently. (I have the list of breeders Margaret gave me and of course we will try those out - though I have one breeder in mind - she is top of the line here from what I hear) It showed me that even though might not really really have wanted a puppy, he is onboard now and we will move forward in the right direction.

It was hard, but I knew exactly what to expect and what to watch out for because of you guys. I know that we will either do this the right way or no way at all. I am committed to my family members and their well-being.

This has been a very good learning experience. All I can say is THANK THE BUNNEHS I RESEARCHED FIRST!!! In this day and age, with the ease of access to information, there's just no excuse for not researching beforehand! I am so glad I have found you guys. You have been invaluable already!

Thank you so very much.



I think at this time, I will hold off and wait for things to clear up with the breed before jumping in. Perhaps, in a few years, a test will have been developped and then we will be able to purchase dogs which will be guaranteed free of these illnesses. :)

Thank you everyone for your help. After much discussion, we have decided that it might be wise to wait. I wish you all the best with your cavaliers!



After all that, and the eventual outcome, of course people are going to be disturbed by the decision to buy a puppy from someone who fails to scan (which is available for as little as £60 per dog to Dutch breeders). It is hard not to comment on the situation without pointing out that all of the above seemed to be important, then suddenly, was not important at all when it came to getting a puppy right away for less cost that can after all just be insured for health problems. :(

Personally I consider continuing to argue and fight for the breed's health and future and for the critical need to support health focused breeders to be far more important that people feeling upset at an honest discussion about why buying a puppy in this way totally fails the breed, the individual puppy, the good breeders out there, and every person who gave support on this board (and I would suggest -- failed the puppy buyer herself, too, which I think she knows). If that stance upsets people there are many other places where I can promise, health issues will almost never be touched upon and the word syringomyelia will almost never be mentioned.

tara
12th July 2011, 09:43 PM
I've been gone for awhile -- dealing with some personal issues, so forgive me for posting here after not being on the board for so long. But I just couldn't keep my mouth shut. What I have to say is in no way meant as a personal statement, judgment or attack on the original poster or any other contributors to this thread.

This situation is, IMHO, THE FUNDAMENTAL REASON why non-reputable breeders and puppy mills exist. Period. Holly's breeder is well known on this board and I've talked with her about this many times. She has questionned why she even bothers trying at several points in her life. Particularly in the US, people who want a cavalier puppy must do two very simple things: EDUCATE THEMSELVES AND THEN BE PATIENT. Period. Not brain surgery here. If you educate yourself about necessary health tests, then you must then be patient and wait for your puppy. You must also be willing to travel as the breeders conducting ALL health tests are few and far between. But they exist and puppy buyers simply must be patient and ONLY support these breeders. Any other puppy purchases must be deemed unacceptable as far as furthering the future of the breed.

I got lucky and only had to wait eight months or so. And I conceded that my breeder would select my puppy. And I travelled a good distance to get Holly. There are no guarantees, but at least I know she got the best start possible from her breeder. Does all of this make me a saint? Of course not -- but I think the time has come to be very clear about what puppy buyers can do to help cavalier health issues. Bottom line -- if we only support health focused breeders (or breed rescue), then all other types of breeders and mills will leave this breed as the profits won't exist. It's simple supply and demand. Don't provide the demand and the supply goes away.

If you can't educate yourself, or be patient and wait for your puppy ... go to your local shelter, cavalier breed rescue or consider another breed. But with any purebreed, please educate yourself about what to demand from a breeder and be willing to be patient for that puppy as well.

I don't mean to flame, but I just don't get it.

Blondiemonster
12th July 2011, 10:26 PM
I understand Karlin and though its true what you said, i still think we need to try and still be supportive. For the sake of Puck.

Karen and Ruby
12th July 2011, 10:27 PM
This thread is upsetting to me and to many others I'm sure and I agree whole heartedly with what Karlin has said although I fear I would not have said it quite so tactfully!


We try so so hard to get this important information across to potential Cavvie owners and when a person with all the information out there still ignores it, it leaves me quite depressed in all honesty.

What hope does this breed have when even the educated fall short?

GraciesMom
12th July 2011, 10:30 PM
Is that we must have a discussion about this at all. Regardless of where you stand on this issue, the fact that the path in the road has taken us to this point is tragic. I have been doing research myself on finding a potential second Cavvie family member and it is very hard work. It takes forever and often down paths that deadend. A list of testing breeders for the USA is just not found... you must dig like a Cavvie looking for a lizard!

As I am making the dozens of calls and sending the emails, it is always in my mind that Cavvies should not be in this situation. The only way I know to support them is to find a second dog from an ethical breeder.

I do think the debate here gets tough at times ... statements can be very blunt on both sides. I wish there was another way to discuss this vital issue differently.... maybe someone can suggest ideas on this. Or maybe tough discourse is necessary given the emotions involved with the pain and suffering of SM and other hereditary conditions.

For those who feel hurt by the toughness of the debate, I do hope you will stay because we all learn so much and from each other. I admit that sometimes my feelings have been hurt here by various posters, but I stay because the resources are so valuable and hurt feelings on a few occasions have been a small price to pay.

pagep
12th July 2011, 10:43 PM
I know this does not apply to the individual in question on this thread, but I would estimate that the vast majority of people do very little research when buying a puppy beyond looking at pictures. Sad but true. So you are looking at a very limited pool of people that you are really going to reach through forums like this in attempting to educate the puppy buying public. That is why the main focus HAS to be on hounding breeders (forgive the pun), kennel clubs & breed organisations who are aware of the issues, but choose to ignore them out of desire for profit or to protect self-interests.

I don't think the supply and demand argument fits well here - I think you have to go after the suppliers first because it is a more managable pool of people to tackle. Does that mean we give up trying to educate people like Nela who came here for advice? Absolutely not. But long term, I fear we will have limited effect in tackling the threat to this breed by chasing the 'consumer'.

When you see so many sad cases of neglected and abused dogs that fill our pounds week in week out, you realise that animal welfare is not high on the agenda for our society as a whole.

Can we realistically expect people to diligently research & choose health conscious breeders, paying over the general asking price when a lot of them want something that they will tire of when it leaves the puppy phase and no longer looks 'cute'? I am not in any way suggesting that this is the case with Nela, and I know that is most definitely not the case for everyone on this board who adore their canine companions, but I do believe that is the general audience we are dealing with and I base that on the evidence of our overflowing dog pounds and over-worked rescue groups.

Beyond the horrors of SM, MVD and the CKC breed that we all love so much, there is a wider issue around dog and animal welfare -if as a society we cannot look after our pets and care for them they way we should will we ever reach a position where researching and educating ourselves on the specific needs of a breed will be high on our agenda?

Desrae
12th July 2011, 11:06 PM
I knew this would become a flammable topic... it was bound to go this way. Throughout the whole discussion I just didn't understand why Nela wasted everyone's time asking or advice on how/where to buy a healthy puppy but ultimately went and did something impulsive anyway.

This is a public forum and I believe that people have the right to speak their mind, if someone is going to post something like this... they should EXPECT to be publicly flogged! It's a sensitive subject and many members and their dogs are suffering because of poor decisions like this. It's unfortunate that Nela has left, I wanted her to stay, because she just might need the support of this forum someday. I wish her the best of luck.

It's a pity, because threads like this can cause schisms and make people leave a forum.

Bet
13th July 2011, 10:52 AM
I knew this would become a flammable topic... it was bound to go this way. Throughout the whole discussion I just didn't understand why Nela wasted everyone's time asking or advice on how/where to buy a healthy puppy but ultimately went and did something impulsive anyway.

This is a public forum and I believe that people have the right to speak their mind, if someone is going to post something like this... they should EXPECT to be publicly flogged! It's a sensitive subject and many members and their dogs are suffering because of poor decisions like this. It's unfortunate that Nela has left, I wanted her to stay, because she just might need the support of this forum someday. I wish her the best of luck.

It's a pity, because threads like this can cause schisms and make people leave a forum.


NOT THE GREATEST NEWS


Have we not got to wake up to the Fact that our Cavaliers are are a very Sick Breed

How can they be any-thing else when about 90% are Suffering from CM

How is it possible for Cavalier Breeders to be able to Breed away from this Problem ,unless Fresh Genes are introduced to the Cavalier Breed.

I have said before and here goes again ,CM is Chacterized with Brains Too Big for the Skulls.

That this stops the flow of the CEREBRO SPINAL ,Syrinxes Form leading onto SM

So what can all the Health Testing of Cavaliers do about this.


Not a lot ,unless Cavaliers do not have CM or are Carriers of the CM Genes, and the Researchers have said that there are a number of Genes with this Condition.

I would think that at the moment there will be very few Cavaliers who do not have CM or are Carriers of the CM GENES

This is the price to be paid by being a Cavalier.

Let us all accept this Truth, and go all out to try an get Fresh Genes into the Cavalier Breed by what ever means.

The Pussy Footing around has to stop,

Bet

Sabby
13th July 2011, 10:58 AM
This is what you wrote in your previous post.

.
I haven't gone out on my
own in over a year because of serious social anxiety resulting from a traumatic
experience and simply refuse to medicate. I 'needed' this puppy and I admit, I
absolutely panicked at the thought of not being able to have a dog. The dog was
my last attempt at staying off the medicine.

What you have gone through in the past sounds awful and terrible.
My question is how will you cope when your dog gets sick?
One of my three Cavaliers is four years old. She was diagnosed with a heart murmur 2 years ago. I am coping with that, and then in April she had to have an operation for her Luxating Patellar. After nursing her back to health I thought we be fine only 2 weeks ago she had to have an MRI Scan and she has degenerated discs, she was also diagnosed with CM & SM what is not symptomatic.
What I am saying is I would count myself as a strong person but seeing all the problems one of my dogs is having is absolutely killing me. Just writing this I am in floods of tears. How on earth would you cope with this kind of heart ache?

God forbid you ever have to experience this

Bet
13th July 2011, 11:16 AM
This is what you wrote in your previous post.

. I haven't gone out on my
own in over a year because of serious social anxiety resulting from a traumatic
experience and simply refuse to medicate. I 'needed' this puppy and I admit, I
absolutely panicked at the thought of not being able to have a dog. The dog was
my last attempt at staying off the medicine.

What you have gone through in the past sounds awful and terrible.
My question is how will you cope when your dog gets sick?
One of my three Cavaliers is four years old. She was diagnosed with a heart murmur 2 years ago. I am coping with that, and then in April she had to have an operation for her Luxating Patellar. After nursing her back to health I thought we be fine only 2 weeks ago she had to have an MRI Scan and she has degenerated discs, she was also diagnosed with CM & SM what is not symptomatic.
What I am saying is I would count myself as a strong person but seeing all the problems one of my dogs is having is absolutely killing me. Just writing this I am in floods of tears. How on earth would you cope with this kind of heart ache?

God forbid you ever have to experience this




NOT THE GREAREST NEWS


Sabby ,thanks for your Post,also why I Posted my previous Post is just to make it so important that Buying from Cavalier Breeders who are Health Testing their Cavaliers ,unless the Cavaliers have no CM,the Breed is just going round in Circles.

Those CM Genes will just keep on Multiplying

What I wonder ,does any-body have a Record of how Many A Cavaliers have no CM ,I think this is a Fact that should be being found out about,also in my Post ,left out the word FLUID when describing Cerebro Spinal.

Bet

cavluvver
13th July 2011, 11:36 AM
someone who has had such wonderful advice and support from the amazing people on this forum has made an ''educated'' totally wrong decision. No I do NOT think that she was harshly treated at all. How much time did people spend advising Nela what to do. I flog myself mentally every day because six years ago we bought Rossi for £250 from a so called reputable kennels near our home. I did not know then about puppy farms and that they probably supplied this 'licensed' kennels. Nor did I know of syringomyelia. I am now suffering the consequences. I watch my wonderful Rossi suffer every day and it kills me. I agree that, if Nela has had mental problems with anxiety, how does she think that experiencing that every day is going to help her. Now that I, and many others are better educated we would never dream of buying a pup from breeders who don't scan. When you fall in love with this breed and you discover their plight surely you just want to save them. I am doing a sponsored slim to lose two and a half stone for RUPERT'S FUND. I have talked to my sponsors about syringomyelia and also the horrors of puppyfarming and told them to pass on the information to others. I am not looking for praise I just want TO DO SOMETHING to help things get better. NOT DO SOMETHING TO MAKE THINGS WORSE!!!!!:-X

sins
13th July 2011, 01:17 PM
In a perfect world...
Cavaliers would be bulletproof,invincible and immortal.But they're not and no dog is...
It would be wonderful if we could buy a puppy and have greater confidence in it's future health and wellbeing,but sadly,there are so many people here who have lost multiple cavaliers prematurely,as a consequence of MVD and SM,that new prospective owners need to protect themselves from unscrupulous and lazy breeders who put profit before health.
I'm not a fan of public stonings either,and I can easily understand people buying cavaliers from untested parents in countries where Mri scanning isn't available or heart testing isn't recommended by clubs etc..
But in countries like the UK or Holland,where you can get such puppies,I'd prefer to see people who know about health issues not settle for second best.
Bringing home a puppy should be a joyful event,not one clouded in worry and guilt because you feel you did the "wrong thing"....and that's why I don't want to add to the upset already caused.
We all love our cavaliers,especially the sick ones.
But love cannot compensate for the pain my bitch endures on a frequent basis,love cannot compensate for the terrible feelings of regret for a life blighted by syringomyelia or for the loss of her quality of life when I see the others leaping in delight over each other as they play,while she cowers in a corner of the garden in case they bump into her.
It's so hard when I look at her existence and think how different it should be.
I will never understand how a family can knowingly open themselves to inviting such an affliction upon themselves when they have a chance to choose more wisely.
Health focused breeders have no problem selling the puppies turned down by pet buyers who want something cheaper and quicker.It just seems a pity to lose out on the chance to spare yourself premature heartache and grief.
I followed a situation on facebook where a buyer added a breeder from whom she'd been offered a bitch puppy...pretty little thing...fully health tested parents.She was so excited about her new puppy....in fact,she was so excited,she couldn't wait three weeks until the puppy was 11 weeks old,pulled out of the sale and bought a seven week old puppy from a BYB...not a test in sight....
It didn't bother the breeder,the puppy was immediately booked by another breeder who thought she'd do nicely in her breeding programme.Probably good for the breed,but maybe not so good for the impatient owner who couldn't wait.
It's a common story,many club breeders will tell you the same,it happens over and over again.
Things will never change..
Sins

Nicki
14th July 2011, 10:58 AM
There are some truly excellent posts on this thread, although it may be upsetting to some people there are some very important points raised and this situation is EXACTLY the reason we need to constantly try to help people do the right thing and support health focused breeders.


I have removed a bit from Cavluvver's post as it was a personal attack and we do not tolerate that on this board - I appreciate, that like many of us, you are very upset with the situation you find yourself within, and I know just how awful it is to live with affected dogs :(


Perhaps everyone could take this opportunity to remind themselves of the rules http://www.cavaliertalk.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?51-READ-ME!-GETTING-STARTED specifically http://www.cavaliertalk.com/forums/showthread.php?8694-PLEASE-READ-Posting-and-membership-guidelines


2) While a large degree of latitude is allowed for personal styles of expression, personal attacks, namecalling, and disparagement directed at other board members -- singly or collectively -- is not acceptable.




Sins post really sums it up - the contrast between healthy Cavaliers [those two came from a truly fantastic health focused breeder who is doing everything he can to help the breed] and a poorly Cavalier suffering with this horrendous condition.

Sins story about the lady on Facebook is just tragic, we have become a society of instant gratification, and that person just wanted their puppy NOW - doesn't care about the future, and not even a thought for the poor parents who are most likely suffering a very difficult life and perhaps even battling health problems themselves, without proper veterinary care :(

Karen and Ruby
14th July 2011, 11:44 AM
I think the problem we have in this day and age is down to the easy availabilty of anything and everything as person could want at the click of a button and thats not any one persons fault, its the modern way of life.

This in turn has caused people to expect results straight away and have no patience in the mean time!

When you bring a baby in to your family you wait 9 months to meet him/her, you spend those 9 months preparing for its arrival. Getting the room ready, buying clothes, furniture, going to classes if you need to. Its a massive event and I would think those 9 months are needed to prepare your self for a life changing event.


If people would just appreciate what a huge change in their lif a puppy is then maybe, just maybe they would spend a bit more time waiting and researching.

Its not just a problem with Cavaliers, Im sure there are many other breeds in just as sticky a situation.
I truely beleive that education needs to start with Children in schools and that the government really need to get a grasp on Puppy farming and the pet shop trade!

People know that they can get a puppy from a shop in a day if they want to and that needs to stop, making it harder to aqquire a puppy could go a long way to helping not just our Cavaliers, but the mess that is Animal welfare in this country!