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View Full Version : Pedigree Dogs Exposed "Mark 2" - Should It Be made



Brian M
22nd July 2011, 04:23 PM
Hi

Thoughts please, are we agreed or not that Jemima Harrison should make a follow up programme .I note that there
is now a Facebook group called " Stop The BBC Making Another Pde " that is attracting
attention from some people and J.H. has referred to it http://pedigreedogsexposed.blogspot.com/

anniemac
22nd July 2011, 07:11 PM
I know I'm in the minority here but I will say this.

I think I read Jemima comment on her blog that Cavaliers should not be bred. I can't find it. I know Dr. Hendricks spoke out about it which Rod has commented that the only reason is because of donations. Either way, I would much rather hear information from someone like Dr. Bell who specializes in genetics and I find his articles quite interesting and you can read some on the CKCSC USA website www.ckcsc.org (http://www.ckcsc.org). http://www.tualatinkc.org/pdf/Responsible%20Breeding%20Management%20of%20Genetic %20Disease.pdf.

I don't agree with mixed breeds being healthier which is what I read in this article.

"There is a general misconception that mixed-breed dogs are inherently free of genetic disease.This may be true for rare, breed-related disorders; but the common genetic diseases that are seenacross all breeds are seen with the same frequency in mixed-breeds."

I like his mentality of reducing the stigma of genetic diseases which IMO Pedigree Dogs Exposed worked against. What did the film educate the public about? I like what he says to do which is to:

"
How can we educate the public?Make them more informed consumers of dogs and puppiesAble to discern responsible breeders.Knowledgeable about genetic testingRecognize that price and quality should be linked (b/c of testing, medical care, etc)"

I think that does way more good.

anniemac
22nd July 2011, 07:13 PM
I would like to add, since SM is seen in other breeds than Cavaliers (which I'm not sure % since more studies done on Cavaliers) and also seen in cross breeds, I would not categorize it as specific to this breed alone.

Sabby
22nd July 2011, 07:24 PM
Hi

Thoughts please, are we agreed or not that Jemima Harrison should make a follow up programme .I note that there
is now a Facebook group called " Stop The BBC Making Another Pde " that is attracting
attention from some people and J.H. has referred to it http://pedigreedogsexposed.blogspot.com/
(http://pedigreedogsexposed.blogspot.com/)

This is what I posted a few weeks back and underneath that is what Margaret C commented on. I am sure she won't mind me reposting this.


pedigree Dogs Exposed - The Sequel
Just got my Dogs Today Magazine through the post yesterday.
It has a two page write up about the Pedigree Dogs Exposed - The Sequel. Interesting reading. On one forum they said burn the witch.
She says that there are many people that have welcomed the news of a sequel, this included dog friends, vets, researchers and some wonderful breeders who share her view that much still needs to be put right in the world of dogs. But there are many others – mostly breeders of show dogs – who feel the exact opposite; who continue to feel incredibly injured by Pedigree dogs exposed and who see her as the enemy. She says she understands that it must have been devastating for someone who has always considered themselves a good breeder to have some upstart who has never breed a dog in her life tell them that what they are doing is wrong. She says, but of course it wasn’t just me. Three independent reports on dog breeding followed PDE.
The threat then to those that want to keep breeding dogs the way they‘ve always done, is a big one- and to those who either cannot or don’t want to see the bigger picture, the messenger becomes an easy target. There is a facebook group now called Stop the BBC making another PDE- open only to an invited membership. The front page has Jemimas picture with a line across her face, they have also posted a picture of her cameraman warning people to look out for them at shows and report them to stewards when spotted.
She also mentions the complained by the KC and that Ofcom found no overall unfairness to the KC. Apparently it cost the KC 100,000. She says that whatever we include in PDE2 the plan is very definitely to not have to go through another complaints process. So what is going to be in PDE2? She is looking forward to telling the inside story of what happened after the film and the follow up will include some of the positive steps that have been taken by both the KC and individual breeders since 2008. The film is also likely to feature stories that illustrate that a lot more needs to change in the world of pedigree dogs.

I just wonder if the real truth will be told. I know things have changed but in my opinion there are still too many people/organisations that are dragging their heels or opting to stick their head into the sand.


If you have a view or a story you think should be in the new film email jem@pedigreedogsexposed.com
I think it would be nice for Cavaliers Matter to be included to show the hard work that Tania and her helpers have done. Of course it is up to Tania.
Last edited by Sabby (http://www.cavaliertalk.com/forums/posthistory.php?p=396587); 14th July 2011 at 11:41 AM.

This is what Margaret C posted.

Originally Posted by Sabby
Three independent reports on dog breeding followed PDE..

And found there were enormous welfare issues in the way that pedigree dogs were being bred


Originally Posted by Sabby
The threat then to those that want to keep breeding dogs the way they‘ve always done, is a big one- and to those who either cannot or don’t want to see the bigger picture, the messenger becomes an easy target. There is a facebook group now called Stop the BBC making another PDE- open only to an invited membership..

The messages on that group are unbelievable....... crude and yobbish comes to mind.

Also quite amusing sometimes. These intellectually challenged group members have convinced themselves that there were Holocaust pictures shown during the discussion on eugenics ( not true ) and have spent a lot of time trying to find an 'uncut' copy of PDE to prove it.
They are in for a long search. There never were any such pictures.


Originally Posted by Sabby
She also mentions the complained by the KC and that Ofcom found no overall unfairness to the KC. Apparently it cost the KC 100,000. .
They hired an enormously expensive firm of lawyers. What a waste of money.

The Cavalier Club also put in a complaint to Ofcom and that was dismissed in its entirety, including the statement that none of the other Cavalier Club committee members knew about the SM status of the BIS dog.
That was such a blatant lie, and I was surprised that those that put the complaint together showed such a lack of integrity.


Originally Posted by Sabby
So what is going to be in PDE2? She is looking forward to telling the inside story of what happened after the film and the follow up will include some of the positive steps that have been taken by both the KC and individual breeders since 2008. The film is also likely to feature stories that illustrate that a lot more needs to change in the world of pedigree dogs.

I just wonder if the real truth will be told. I know things have changed but in my opinion there are still too many people/organisations that are dragging their heels or opting to stick their head into the sand.
There is bound to be a follow up on the Cavalier story to include the Special General Meeting.

I wonder how many positive steps in improving health the cavalier clubs can show in the last three years?
The banning of yet another health representative from crucial meetings and the long drawn out delay in implementing the KC/BVA CMSM Scheme will take some explaining.

After all why would breeders object to their cavaliers' scan results being published unless they want to be able to continue to breed from cavaliers that are SM affected, scanned too young, or not scanned at all?
Originally Posted by Sabby
If you have a view or a story you think should be in the new film email jem@pedigreedogsexposed.com
I think it would be nice for Cavaliers Matter to be included to show the hard work that Tania and her helpers have done. Of course it is up to Tania.

It would be good to show what ordinary pet owners are able and willing to do for this breed

Brian M
22nd July 2011, 10:12 PM
Hello Annie

Did you not align yourself as a "friend" of this group who do not wish Part Two to be made ,if so may I ask why .:confused:

RodRussell
22nd July 2011, 10:43 PM
Hello Annie

Did you not align yourself as a "friend" of this group who do not wish Part Two to be made ,if so may I ask why .:confused:

In Facebook parlance, one does not align oneself as a "friend" of a group. One "joins" the group. Since the group in question is a "closed group", one must join the group to read what is being written within the group. Joining that group is not a statement of alignment; it is a statement of curiosity.

RodRussell
22nd July 2011, 11:12 PM
The problem is not with the Facebook group as it is with the petition: "Stop The BBC making another Pedigree Dogs Exposed Petition". Of course, this is a UK issue, since the BBC is a UK media outlet. But as an American, it does not cross my mind to think that a petition like this one is anything other than a complete waste of time, since over here, with the constitutionally constituted (alliteration and redundancy combined!) Freedoms of Speech and of the Press, the petitioners have no clout whatsoever in determining whether a PDE2 is presented or not.

That said, I find it VERY INTERESTING that at least one American has signed the petition. And not just ANY American, but one who holds the position of Chairman of the Board of the American Kennel Club. None other than the esteemed Ron Menaker. Here is what he wrote as he signed the petition:

"Responsible dog owners, the dog loving public and responsible dog breeders should not be subjected to another piece of sensationalist fiction and tabloid journalism masquerading as a documentary. Any investigation of dogs, breeding or health matters should be balanced and fair. If the BBC insists on repeating this exercise in media sensationalism, why not present the truth about the progress that has been made as a result of responsible dog breeding and scientific research projects funded by organizations that truly care about dogs. For the BBC's next installment, how about "Jemima Harrison Exposed" ?

Apparently Chairman Menaker has slipped from his handlers and lashed out without benefit of running his comments past the AKC's PR department. He will come to regret those comments, deeply.

anniemac
22nd July 2011, 11:51 PM
I had to stop listening to a interesting interview online with Dr. Bell on petconnection I believe. I find what he says very interesting and constructive. Like I said we have got to be open about genetic conditions and both the facebook group and the pedigree dogs exposed blog, imo feels just like that.

I feel like it similar to what we have here of shows on puppy mill raids. It shows the negative of that but doesnt ask the question, "who is buying these puppies." If the view is to not breed cavaliers as I have read in comments and gossip, I don't know how I can see good? I would like to see working together and moving away from gossip.

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anniemac
22nd July 2011, 11:57 PM
When I hear about PDE here, I was told that the cavalier was off medication and they got him/her excited to make it look worse. I know what its like to have a cavalier with SM, but this is gossip. I have no idea if its true but it makes the focus away from the real issue. Also I don't think just because a cavalier is scanned and has SM it can not be shown. What if they have a great heart line? We need to ask these questions and move to constructive talk together. Just my opinion

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anniemac
23rd July 2011, 12:13 AM
I'm not for or against pde, I'm for cavalier health, responsible pet buying, responsible breeding and sometimes, honestly, I feel stuck. I don't know what things were like pre PDE, but now I just feel like the enemy which I shouldn't feel like especially if I support responsible breeders, research etc and would not buy a puppy from an irresponsible breeder. Why do I feel like people think I'm against their health if I ask questions? I think asking questions is the only way forward.

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Margaret C
23rd July 2011, 12:28 AM
I think I read Jemima comment on her blog that Cavaliers should not be bred. I can't find it.

You won't find it because she has never said that although others have.




What did the film educate the public about? How can we educate the public?

Have you ever watched PDE all the way through? Because of the public outrage at the callous disregard for the welfare of so many breeds of dogs, the Kennel Club has been forced to action and give much more priority to health.

anniemac
23rd July 2011, 12:41 AM
You won't find it because she has never said that although others have.




Have you ever watched PDE all the way through? Because of the public outrage at the callous disregard for the welfare of so many breeds of dogs, the Kennel Club has been forced to action and give much more priority to health.

Maybe I should. I watched parts of how you were treated which I didn't like, I watched the part of the cavalier who died after surgery which is sad. I don't know what the answer is. I wish I did. I believe you speaking out did bring attention needed, I just wish things were done differently. I don't know what things would be like had it not been made? Would more people be open? Don't know. I just wish things could not be either one way or the other.

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anniemac
23rd July 2011, 12:45 AM
I will add that I was made aware of SM from the book For the Love of Ollie which had a completely different take. It had a letter from ollie's breeder and a thank you to the canadian club health chair who came to talk in detail. I think that's why I have a different feeling and also because I was not part of it and do not live in the uk.

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Margaret C
23rd July 2011, 12:56 AM
When I hear about PDE here, I was told that the cavalier was off medication and they got him/her excited to make it look worse. I know what its like to have a cavalier with SM, but this is gossip. I have no idea if its true but it makes the focus away from the real issue.


You do not approve of lies but you are repeating it. In fact it is more than gossip, it is lies.

How do you think the owners of that suffering cavalier and the boxer that had the epileptic fit feel at being accused of with holding medication from their pets?

These were owners that filmed the dogs themselves. The cavalier was a video taken by the owners to show their vet and the poor dog was PTS soon after.

Lots of people on this forum take videos to show how their cavaliers suffer. How would they feel if the same suggestion was made about them?

The owners of those dogs were trying to show people just what inherited problems were doing to their dogs.


Also I don't think just because a cavalier is scanned and has SM it can not be shown. What if they have a great heart line? We need to ask these questions and move to constructive talk together. Just my opinion



Anne if you are talking about the BIS dog, the issue is not really that he was shown, it was that he had SM at a very young age and the owner was told by the neurologist....... HE SHOULD NEVER BE BRED FROM.............

She still used him at stud and other breeders knowing his diagnosis still used him, without caring about the puppies that would be at great risk of inheriting SM, or the owners just like you that would end up caring for a suffering dog.

He did not come from a great heart line.

I actually doubt if there are any great heart lines in Cavaliers now. The odd golden oldie may make it to 10 years without a murmur but not whole families of parents and siblings.

anniemac
23rd July 2011, 01:11 AM
Oh it kills me to hear that and to watch peoples videos. My heart aches for them. My point is that I wish when I call or bring it up, I do not hear that as a response. It makes me upset but who knows.you have to understand in the usa, very few people are even scanning. I was thinking of a puppy out of the country just so I could have scanned parents. I guess I live in a dream world. If anything, I wish people could know how to contribute to research, find responsible breeders and more of this is what you can do to help.

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anniemac
23rd July 2011, 03:24 AM
I will say this interview with dr. Bell is still on my mind. I wonder if anyone has a transcript. The KC owns the breed standards (I believe) which the akc doesn't. He mentioned breeds that can not give birth naturally is something different. Exageratted traits were discussed and even how judges need to go back to original standard and not reward these traits. I think PDE changed standard of bulldog and peke which he thought helpful. Someone correct me.

I just don't see how cavaliers standard being changed would fit. I would be curious which breeds he thought that started with small gene pool might need outcrossing. I don't want to speak for him. Since he is a geneticist, I would be interested on his point of view of the cavaliers. I also would like a transcript of interview.

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RodRussell
23rd July 2011, 04:44 AM
A big problem which the producer of PDE obviously had was to get "the other side" to talk to her instead of turning their backs to her (in some instances, literally and on-camera). An oft-repeated criticism of PDE is that it was one-sided, only painted the negative picture, and was not "balanced". The esteemed Ron Menaker, the AKC board chairman (whom I quote in full at #7 of this thread) wrote: "Any investigation of dogs, breeding or health matters should be balanced and fair." Well that's fine argument, but when only one side will talk to you, whose fault is it that the resulting production does not seem "balanced and fair" to the likes of the always-balanced-and-fair AKC Chairman Ron Menaker?

I can only speak about cavaliers, so I know nothing about the other breeds discussed in PDE, but I can tell you that as far as the criticisms of PDE regarding cavaliers is concerned, roughly 90+% of that criticism is phony. Whether it is the falsehood about the dog being denied its meds, or whatever, the criticisms have been largely a combination of people spreading falsehoods about PDE and other people blindly falling for those falsehoods.

PDE has been the single most important vehicle for bringing cavaliers with MVD and CM/SM to the attention of the masses, and getting major support for the efforts of some CKCS clubs to do something constructive about SM. I know that the UK CKCS club was focused on SM before PDE, but PDE gave a needed boost to that focus, and got the Kennel Club to at least deal in window-dressing-style with the issue of breed standards creating genetic basket-cases.

As I see it, the only problem with PDE2 is that it is not being filmed in the USA. Hopefully, that will be resolved with PDE3.

Bet
23rd July 2011, 09:21 AM
I know I'm in the minority here but I will say this.

I think I read Jemima comment on her blog that Cavaliers should not be bred. I can't find it. I know Dr. Hendricks spoke out about it which Rod has commented that the only reason is because of donations. Either way, I would much rather hear information from someone like Dr. Bell who specializes in genetics and I find his articles quite interesting and you can read some on the CKCSC USA website www.ckcsc.org (http://www.ckcsc.org). http://www.tualatinkc.org/pdf/Responsible%20Breeding%20Management%20of%20Genetic %20Disease.pdf.

I don't agree with mixed breeds being healthier which is what I read in this article.

"There is a general misconception that mixed-breed dogs are inherently free of genetic disease.This may be true for rare, breed-related disorders; but the common genetic diseases that are seenacross all breeds are seen with the same frequency in mixed-breeds."

I like his mentality of reducing the stigma of genetic diseases which IMO Pedigree Dogs Exposed worked against. What did the film educate the public about? I like what he says to do which is to:

"
How can we educate the public?Make them more informed consumers of dogs and puppiesAble to discern responsible breeders.Knowledgeable about genetic testingRecognize that price and quality should be linked (b/c of testing, medical care, etc)"

I think that does way more good.



PEDIGREE DOGS EXPOSED "MARK2"- SHOULD BE MADE



ANNE
I feel I have got to chime in this Thread, I Recently Contacted Dr J Bell .Geneticist ,in America about the CM/ SM Problem in our Cavaliers ,explaining that around 90% of Cavaliers have CM, mentioning that this is Chacterised with Brains being too Big for the Skulls .this is hindering the Flow of the Cerebro Spinal Fluid causing Syrinxes to form then SM.

I asked him because so many Cavaliers now have CM how can this Problem be Tackled, I also mentioned that the Latest Veterinary Paper Published said that Selective Cavalier Breed could be difficult to Eliminate to Genetic Risk Factors for SM because it is a Comlex Disease with Several /Many Genes and that the the Prevelance of the Determinant Genes within the Cavalier Population is likely therefor to be High.

I have been in contact with Dr J. Bell over the past years years ,always had a reply, not this time, I wonder if he has no answer to our Cavaliers' CM Problem.


Bet

Margaret C
23rd July 2011, 12:43 PM
I will add that I was made aware of SM from the book For the Love of Ollie which had a completely different take. It had a letter from ollie's breeder and a thank you to the canadian club health chair who came to talk in detail. I think that's why I have a different feeling and also because I was not part of it and do not live in the uk.

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I have known Sandy Smith, the author, for a long time now. She has four cavaliers all on medication. Perhaps you should write and ask her opinion of PDE?

anniemac
23rd July 2011, 12:47 PM
I have known Sandy Smith, the author, for a long time now. She has four cavaliers all on medication. Perhaps you should write and ask her opinion of PDE?

That's a good idea

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Margaret C
23rd July 2011, 01:14 PM
.you have to understand in the usa, very few people are even scanning. I was thinking of a puppy out of the country just so I could have scanned parents.

It is up to determined buyers like you to keep asking for puppies from scanned parents and refusing to be fobbed off when they say...

It is not necessary, the number of SM cavaliers is exaggerated.

It is not necessary because I don't have it in my lines.

It is too expensive.

It is too far to travel for an MRI

And then of course there is those who imply...... my dog has it but it is no problem, just a little scratching, just a limp occasionally, nothing to worry about, a lot of fuss about nothing.

Anne, you had a cavalier with SM. We have many many USA owners who write asking for advice and support for their SM dogs.
What do you think is going to happen when USA breeders continue to breed unscanned dogs?
Will SM go away all by itself?


. I guess I live in a dream world.

It appears that way sometimes.


. If anything, I wish people could know how to contribute to research, find responsible breeders and more of this is what you can do to help.

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That's what CavalierMatters, Ruperts Fund, Cavalier Collection Scheme,CavalierPuppy Buying Advice, Cavalier Campaign and Foetal Tissue Research are doing. Interestingly all but one pet owner initiatives.

Only FTR has had any support from Cavalier Clubs, and breeder support for that seem to be waning now that their key researcher has confirmed the scale of the SM problem.

Margaret C
23rd July 2011, 02:00 PM
I can only speak about cavaliers, so I know nothing about the other breeds discussed in PDE, but I can tell you that as far as the criticisms of PDE regarding cavaliers is concerned, roughly 90+% of that criticism is phony. Whether it is the falsehood about the dog being denied its meds, or whatever, the criticisms have been largely a combination of people spreading falsehoods about PDE and other people blindly falling for those falsehoods.


http://pedigreedogsexposed.blogspot.com/p/pde-myths-busted.html

Brian M
23rd July 2011, 09:36 PM
Hi

You know I ask the question and I firmly believe there should be a Part Two but I have to admit I
have never even seen Part One ,I consider myself not a wimp but a big cowerd as far as our animal
friends ggo I cannot bear to see any living thing hurt or suffer so there was no chance I could watch
our Cavaliers suffer none whatsoever .:sl*p:

anniemac
23rd July 2011, 11:29 PM
Hi

You know I ask the question and I firmly believe there should be a Part Two but I have to admit I
have never even seen Part One ,I consider myself not a wimp but a big cowerd as far as our animal
friends ggo I cannot bear to see any living thing hurt or suffer so there was no chance I could watch
our Cavaliers suffer none whatsoever .:sl*p:

You think because I have questions on whether or not pde made breeders less open about SM means I want cavaliers to suffer? This is exactly what I'm afraid of. I absolutely don't want that but because I have questions on what the result caused of the first one, that means I want them to suffer? I simply don't know if it made less people want to be open because of risk of the stigma I feel PDE placed on SM a condition that we are still learning about. Each time I ask questions about CM or anything else, it gets twisted that I'm not wanting the best interest. That's what I don't like.

Do I know if more would be open with mri results? I have no idea.

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anniemac
23rd July 2011, 11:49 PM
I am on the fence. Just would like input from breeders,clubs, and genetics l. I would like for people not.to not.fear of open

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Margaret C
24th July 2011, 01:35 AM
You think because I have questions on whether or not pde made breeders less open about SM means I want cavaliers to suffer? This is exactly what I'm afraid of. I absolutely don't want that but because I have questions on what the result caused of the first one, that means I want them to suffer? I simply don't know if it made less people want to be open because of risk of the stigma I feel PDE placed on SM a condition that we are still learning about. Each time I ask questions about CM or anything else, it gets twisted that I'm not wanting the best interest. That's what I don't like.

Do I know if more would be open with mri results? I have no idea.

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I think everyone knows you are just trying to make sense of a very confusing situation where nothing is straightforward.

I do think that PDE brought the subject of SM out into the open in a way that would have taken many more years if it had not been shown.

The stigma is to know there is SM in cavaliers and to hide the fact.

Anne, I was the Cavalier Club spokesperson for 6 years. I know exactly what it was like then, and the change that has come about because of the film, because I was battling against the denial and the cover up of SM that went on.

Towards the end of those years my friends were scared to be seen talking to me because I had became so unpopular for publicising something the influential breeders did not want talked about.

I did not dare sell 'For the Love of Ollie' openly on the Cavalier Club health stall at shows because of the complaints it would bring.

There was a lot of unspoken intimidation and decent breeders that did scan were worried that they would be called 'health freaks' and it would affect their chances of winning in the show ring.

Stud dog owners were outspoken in their fury if anyone scanned offspring from their dogs.

Breeders that had SM dogs, and since PDE it has become clear just how many there were, kept very quiet about them and usually rehomed them quickly.
They would refuse to answer pet owners who tried to tell them of the problems they had encountered,and made threats of legal action if they persisted.

Breeders that had young dogs operated on, or were known to be in conflict with USA breeders that had found the UK cavaliers they had bought were scratching and screaming, nevertheless poured scorn on what have now proved to be low estimates of affected dogs, libelled the specialists that were trying to help, and put pressure on clubs to stop cooperation with researchers.

After PDE, and the first furious denials that there was any problem, more breeders in the UK began to scan their dogs ( the low cost centres suddenly became very busy ) and heart & eye clinics had a large increase in numbers.

And ask yourself, how do you learn about a condition when nobody will admit that their dogs have it? When they won't scan to see if their dogs are affected? When they won't provide the information the researchers need?

Bet
24th July 2011, 10:08 AM
That's a good idea

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PEDIGREE DOGS EXPOSED "MARK 2" - SHOULD IT BE MADE


Anne,

Could I also suggest that you Contact the Researchers into CM/SM, about all the Questions you have about those Conditions Afflicting our Cavalier Breed.

No doubt they will give you a lot of Information.


Bet

anniemac
24th July 2011, 03:26 PM
PEDIGREE DOGS EXPOSED "MARK 2" - SHOULD IT BE MADE


Anne,

Could I also suggest that you Contact the Researchers into CM/SM, about all the Questions you have about those Conditions Afflicting our Cavalier Breed.

No doubt they will give you a lot of Information.


Bet

I have never been in contact with Dr. Rusbridge except an email to say thank you. I interviewed Dr. Marino. I do not doubt the statistics at all.

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anniemac
24th July 2011, 03:32 PM
Rod,

There are reasons that I will not get into on this board, that I would definately not want a PDE 3 in the usa. We can discuss of this board.

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Bet
25th July 2011, 11:42 AM
Rod,

There are reasons that I will not get into on this board, that I would definately not want a PDE 3 in the usa. We can discuss of this board.

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PEDIGREE DOGS EXPOSED "MARK 2" -SHOULD IT BE MADE


I am feeling very CRABBIT at the moment ,I am suffering from Sciatica.!!!!,but I feel I Really have to answer Anne about the The PDE TV Program

I cannot speak about the other Breeds of Dogs that were involved in the Program , but if it had not been for the Shock Way of dealing with the SM Problem in our Beloved Cavalier Breed ,no notice would ever have been taken or the Cavalier Buying Pubilc been made aware about the Suffering that SM causes to our Cavaliers

I will never forget the Screaming of the Cavalier in the Program, nor will I am sure many Lovers of the Cavalier Breed.So if the PDE Program has made the News-Papers ,etc aware of what a Cavalier is Suffering , then Thank You Jemima Harrison.

Softly ,Softly ,Cachee Monkey ,is absolutely no use in how the SM Problem is dealt with for Cavaliers.

We have now gained more information about the CM Problem in the Cavalier Breed, that about 90% Cavaliers have CM ,also 85 Whelps Researched for the Foetal Tissue Research , ALL HAD CM.

CM is Chacterised with the Brains being too Big for the Skulls ,hindering the Flow of Cerebro Spinal Fluid .this causes Syrinxes to Form then SM.

Anne ,if you don't believe me about this ,contact Dr C Rusbridge, Neurologist, where she has mentioned it on the Intrenet.

Also maybe you could read many of the Veterinary Papers on the Internet ,which have been Peer Reviewed about the CM/SM Problem in our Cavalier Breed where I am sure you will get all the Answers to your Questions.

Maybe even contact Jemima Harrison as well.

Bet

Karen and Ruby
25th July 2011, 09:27 PM
All I know is that with out PDE I would have had a very very painful dog for a hell of a lot longer as PDE was the sole reason I had Ruby scanned!!

I read the article in Dogs Today by Jemima Harison and she speaks about high lighting the sucess stories on the program but not forgetting what a long way to go there is with others!

And for Cavaliers there is such a very long way to go and maybe, just maybe when people see what little prgress there has been by the Kennel Club to help us out they will think again before buying from non health tested parents!!

Its is 'recommened' that parents are heart scanned, 'recommended' that parents are eye tested, recommend, recommend, recommend!! No mention of anything mandatory!!

And the Kennel Club say that the breeders are 'ON board' with the EBV scheme!!!

I'm sorry but PDE only started the ball rolling for these wonderful little dogs- now lets get serious and tell the Public what has really happened since- because if t wasn't for the Pet owner research schemes there wouldn't be much tto talk about would there!!!

Brian M
25th July 2011, 10:12 PM
Hi Karen

I fully agree there is a long way to go ,and to think where we would be without it even though I have never watched it, the ensuing publicity it quickly attracted helped so many of us pet owners by educating us of the dark side that was only whispered about between breeders and quickly after denial buried again and certainly not mentioned to "those" the pet buying public .We have so much to thank J.H. and P.D.E. for so lets hope PDE 2 is equally earth shattering and if not then lets see PDE 3 and more till all breeders are responsible health breeders and all breed according to the recommended guidelines .And equally a huge Thank You to the many breeders that are now conforming to the health breedng guidelines. Though I would dearly love to see more adopting The MVD Breeding Protocol and no underage dogs appearing in the Breed Record Supplements with many coming from supposedly leading well known names .I wonder if R. M. ever bred Cavaliers .

And I certainly dont think with any Cavalier issues "one can run with the hares and hunt with the hounds",if breeders will not accept and comply with all
the necessary health tests and breeding guidelines ie SM and MVD, then it should be made compulsory that they do or the other choice for them is get out of breeding even the few that have been breeding for centuries as its obvious that even with their aged knowledge after playing God they have left there patient broken, maybe beyond repair .I am so happy to be just a poor humble pet owner but one who wants my pet to be happy ,healthy and long lived, I think I am going to be disappointed .:(

RodRussell
25th July 2011, 10:49 PM
I think everyone should watch "Pedigree Dogs Exposed" and then re-watch it periodically, again and again. I just finished watching it, to refresh my memory. I did it because, just last week, Ron Menaker, the chairman of the board of the American Kennel Club described PDE as a "piece of sensationalist fiction and tabloid journalism masquerading as a documentary".

I had not recalled it being that way, and so I watched it again to re-assure myself that the AKC chairman either has not watched it himself, or he has watched it and has chosen to lie about its content. I was thusly reassured; he is either ignorant or a liar.

The segments about the cavalier are excellently presented and completely factual. If you did not know about MVD and CM/SM in the CKCS, then PDE will teach you by presenting Simon Swift and Clare Rusbridge to tell you about those disorders, including how dangerously widespread they are in the breed. You may watch it, too, at http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/pedigree-dogs-exposed/

keekycat
26th July 2011, 06:22 PM
I think everyone should watch "Pedigree Dogs Exposed" and then re-watch it periodically, again and again. I just finished watching it, to refresh my memory. I did it because, just last week, Ron Menaker, the chairman of the board of the American Kennel Club described PDE as a "piece of sensationalist fiction and tabloid journalism masquerading as a documentary".

I had not watched PDE until today. Was not sure if I could bear to watch any animal that is suffering but decided I should do it as I am trying to gain more information into the world of dogs--Cavaliers especially. Don't for the life of me see how it correlates to prospect of people inbreeding, however. This is totally preposterous. That's like comparing apples to oranges--or worse!

I do feel that PDE is sensationalistic in it's "exposure." But then again sensationalism in the media is what sells, I suppose.

Then again insight can be a powerful weapon. And in this respect I am glad I watched it.

RodRussell
26th July 2011, 06:44 PM
I... Don't for the life of me see how it correlates to prospect of people inbreeding, however. This is totally preposterous. That's like comparing apples to oranges--or worse!

I don't see why it does not correlate to humans inbreeding. The science of genetics is the same for both groups.

RodRussell
26th July 2011, 06:47 PM
...I do feel that PDE is sensationalistic in it's "exposure." But then again sensationalism in the media is what sells, I suppose.

It may be sensational, but that is not a fault. It is factual (at least as far as cavaliers are concerned) and it is a documentary, and that is why Ron Menaker's comments are false.

keekycat
26th July 2011, 09:10 PM
I don't see why it does not correlate to humans inbreeding. The science of genetics is the same for both groups.

:yuk:This may be true my objection results from the question posed to Mr Irving by the reporter who wanted to know if he would entertain the thought of "inbreeding" within his own family members!

If you can see no difference here you best return to basic science classes. The question posed has no correlation between people/dogs and there is a difference between the two.

Sorry for my ignorance.

Oreo
26th July 2011, 09:28 PM
:yuk:This may be true my objection results from the question posed to Mr Irving by the reporter who wanted to know if he would entertain the thought of "inbreeding" within his own family members!If you can see no difference here you best return to basic science classes. The question posed has no correlation between people/dogs and there is a difference between the two.Sorry for my ignorance.

I don't understand why you would think the question has no correlation . . . and I understand science and genetics fairly competently. Biologically, the risks of inbreeding in humans are similar to other mammals. The reporter asked a question that has validity from a biological standpoint. IF you only pondered it only from a moral standpoint knowing humans have a moral code and animals don't, then think harder on it as that is not the only way the question can be interpreted. The obvious reason for the question was because of the biological implications - which is the reason behind the taboo in most human societies.

Oreo

Karen and Ruby
26th July 2011, 09:49 PM
:yuk:This may be true my objection results from the question posed to Mr Irving by the reporter who wanted to know if he would entertain the thought of "inbreeding" within his own family members!

If you can see no difference here you best return to basic science classes. The question posed has no correlation between people/dogs and there is a difference between the two.

Sorry for my ignorance.


I'm no scientist but I do know that mammals don't naturally breed with close relatives. Mans interference and strange need for the 'perfect' specimen for the show ring amoungst everything else are why this breed is in such a mess.
Line breeding is a biological nightmare thatshould have been banned a long time ago and the question was a good one to Mr Irving who clearly didn't like the question!!

anniemac
26th July 2011, 10:24 PM
I'm no scientist but I do know that mammals don't naturally breed with close relatives. Mans interference and strange need for the 'perfect' specimen for the show ring amoungst everything else are why this breed is in such a mess.
Line breeding is a biological nightmare thatshould have been banned a long time ago and the question was a good one to Mr Irving who clearly didn't like the question!!

I would not say linebreeding is a genetic nightmare. You can read several things Dr. Bell has written about the ins and outs of breeding. http://www.malamutehealth.org/articles/breeding_bell_genetics3.htm I'm not getting into that because I have never bred before but I will say that if a breeder had a blue cavalier they would be removed from the breeding program. This is a
The Blue People of Kentucky is a genetic tale of inbreeding with recessive genes.

Yes, there is a joke about inbreeding in Kentucky. Actually in South Carolina, everyone seems related to everyone else especially in some circles. You can see that in history with royalty, in isolated populations etc. This is what caused "THE BLUE PEOPLE OF TROUBLESOME CREEK"



You can read about them but basically it started way back in the 1800's where a person who settled married a woman who carried the same recessive trait. Well they were isolated and you can get the picture.

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj88/anniemacmac/BluePeople-PeoplewithblueSkin.jpg

If you want to read more for your enjoyment http://rootsweb.ancestry.com/~kyperry3/Blue_Fugates_Troublesome_Creek.html

anniemac
26th July 2011, 10:28 PM
I would say the worse thing is popular sire syndrome before even getting into the whole inbreeding issue.

anniemac
26th July 2011, 10:30 PM
I don't see why it does not correlate to humans inbreeding. The science of genetics is the same for both groups.

Exactly why I used the Blue People of Kentucky as an example. You can marry your second cousin in SC but not your first.

RodRussell
26th July 2011, 11:37 PM
:yuk:This may be true my objection results from the question posed to Mr Irving by the reporter who wanted to know if he would entertain the thought of "inbreeding" within his own family members!

It is a valid comparison.


If you can see no difference here you best return to basic science classes. The question posed has no correlation between people/dogs and there is a difference between the two.

The only difference is the species.


Sorry for my ignorance.

Your ignorance is excused.