PDA

View Full Version : This is what happens when good breeders talk about health.



Margaret C
11th August 2011, 01:41 PM
http://pedigreedogsexposed.blogspot.com/2011/08/tolerating-quiet.html#comments

Not cavaliers this time but the blog illustrates what happens to so many health conscious breeders.

The first comment is interesting and shows just what can be achieved when those that run the breed clubs really do care about the future of their breed

mommytoClaire
12th August 2011, 04:56 AM
Thanks for sharing Margaret. Always encouraging to see other breeds overcoming health issues.

Karlin
12th August 2011, 11:35 AM
Very interesting on the Gordon setters. I would love to see similar commitment from breeders and clubs with Cavaliers, to get those older dogs scanned, as this is such a critical and informative area of research right now–trying to understand how and why some dogs go on to develop problems with syringomyelia and CM, while others do not, or only have minor issues. Without those dogs forthcoming, there are just enormous gaps in information that could help push the genome project forward significantly and help to eventually produce that DNA test. It was clearly a simpler issue to resolve with Gordons, because it must've been a simple genetic trait and hence easier to identify and easier to create a test for, rather than a complex one, as with syringomyelia– but to my mind, the fact that syringomyelia is complex is exactly the reason that this breed in particular, needs its breeders to work in a coordinated and concerted and well-funded way to try to find answers before the breed is no longer viable.

anniemac
12th August 2011, 02:25 PM
I found the article quite interesting and sad that one would be treated that way. However what stood out was when I clicked on the article where the comment was mentioned.

I could not believe that she said this:

"Sheila Atter wrote: started with Cavalier King Charles Spaniels, one of the most popular pet breeds, but one that is beset with serious health problems. On the day that I checked, the result was very encouraging. There were 12 advertisements for puppies from accredited breeders, all of whom had at least two accolades, most had all three and one had the accolade of excellence as well. I thought that was a very gratifying result, and hopefully it reflects the efforts made by serious breeders to face up to and start to eradicate the well-publicised problems in that breed. But looking at another toy breed, the results were not so encouraging."

Ummm... did not know the only test to be on an listed as an accredited breeder for cavaliers is EYES! Wow! Leaving out SM, what about hearts? I don't know any breeder that would say MVD is not a problem in the breed. I hear so much about the CM/SM breeding scheme but what about hearts? I know I read that there are more listed on the over 5 list (I believe) but is it still really hard to get heart certificates? Are those results not public also?

I guess the KC ABS (in my opinion) is worthless especially if only requirement to advertise is eyes. I think it's better to go to breed clubs and for them (especially in the USA) give information on questions to ask, health information, are you the right fit for breed, educational stuff.

I think it's more important to look at the breeding and not the breeder but many puppy buyers (unfortunately) don't take time to get to know breeders and educate themselves about the breed. It's heartbreaking but some want a puppy now and will not wait (even if not long) for a puppy.

GraciesMom
12th August 2011, 03:06 PM
Why are so many protocols only focused on one or two conditions??? I do not get it when clear documentation of other serious inherited conditions.

anniemac
12th August 2011, 03:45 PM
Why are so many protocols only focused on one or two conditions??? I do not get it when clear documentation of other serious inherited conditions.

I think reading back not the UK is working on an EBV where it does factor in hearts.

Debra,

In the US and I am sure the UK, these are "recommended" protocols. Anyone can register a cavalier with the AKC if they have a pedigree and it only proves they are a purebred Cavalier and nothing to do with health. The parent club (ACKCSC) has recommended protocols. Right now, I went to the website www.ackcsc.org (http://www.ackcsc.org) to see what they suggest for puppy buyers. The website did not give me information or it was hard to navigate to find if there. You can buy a puppy buyers guide for $2.00 which I find disappointing. The website did say in the code of ethics

"5. Not breed from any Cavalier known to have inheritable, disqualifying, disabling, or potentially disabling health defects Note: Screening for inherited diseases and health defects is strongly recommended by ACKCSC, Inc. e.g. eye, heart, patellae, and hips"

Now the other breed club www.ckcsc.org (http://www.ckcsc.org) has information to ask breeders. I believe we have to understand that the USA has different "recommended" protocols than the UK. For example, the ACKCSC mentions hips and patellas but no SM. Even though some will say more should be on the website or Rod may mention the MVD protocol, in my opinion, the breed clubs is the best place to start.

I feel the more genetic tests and health protocols, the harder it is for breeders. I believe I read that Dr. Jerald Bell said it is his hope that with more testing there will be no "perfect" dog. It would be virtually impossible to have all clear certificates. MVD and CM/SM are two most talked about conditions recently. Many have already been testing eyes and I think they have had success with this. For some conditions it is not easy or they do not have a DNA test, so information on pedigree history and offspring, along with tests, are things they look at. That is why a DNA test would be helpful for the breed because not only is it expensive to scan but still we can only look at guidelines and research we have now. Even with an A to A breeding, 25% could still develop SM. There is a lot of unknowns so I thank the breeders who are submitting results, being open about not only good results, and having the knowledge and education to make these decisions.

I would not want to be a breeder because there is a lot of factors to consider.

Karlin
12th August 2011, 04:50 PM
I guess the KC ABS (in my opinion) is worthless especially if only requirement to advertise is eyes.

Many of us have been making this point for years–it has been a key argument made by Jemima Harrison and also by many within and outside the clubs who have a concern about puppy farms, because in the past it has been so easy to get this accreditation. And with cavaliers, for only eyes to be on the list is just utterly meaningless. I don't think there is a single respected cavalier breeder at the moment who would think that only testing cavalier eyes makes for a responsible breeder, much less one who is given the imprimatur by the national kennel club, of being somehow particularly health focused (the supposed point of theABS). :sl*p:


Even with an A to A breeding, 25% could still develop SM.

But the alternatives are far, far worse. And as one Griffon breeder has already shown, you can take your dogs from a D grade to producing all A puppies within only a couple of generations. There is plenty of evidence that breeding A to D, or D to D, produces few to no A's.

As for what the breed clubs recommend–the UK club is actually by far the best in making recommendations–what people actually do, of course, is a different situation, and the current national club committee has refused to set even the most minimal example to its members by refusing to commit to its own club's basic recommendations :lpy:.

The CKCSC using cost as a reason to let breeders off the hook of doing MRIs is totally, ethically corrupt. If people cannot afford the MRIs for this widespread and devastating, painful disease, then they shouldn't be breeding! And I sure don;t see breeders rushing to lower puppy prices simply because lots of people whop would like a cavalier pup cannot afford their dogs... we all have things we wish we could do but cannot afford, and if healthful breeding is beyond someone's means, then they need to get out of cavalier breeding). It is just ridiculous to use cost issues to justify breeding blindly–which is what every breeder who does not MRI is doing. I think you only need to look at how so many of the most skeptical breeders towards MRIs, really changed their view when they started to MRI some of their own dogs and found how many dogs that they were sure were clear actually had syrinxes.

The clubs have also made almost no effort to try to set up low-cost programs or to raise funding to do so in the US. Every low-cost scanning program that I am aware of bar one, was actually driven by either pet owners or a handful of interested researchers/centre owners (and personally, I was involved in the background with 2 of them, that directly benefit breeders, not pet owners. How is it that I can seem to manage to do this from 5000 miles away just through e-mail correspondence, and the breed clubs actually in these locales cannot get these things set up? And the reason that I was the point of contact for these scanning programs was because I, like Rod, actually have plenty of information available on a website about SM and the clubs had pretty much nothing, so the centres thought it better to ask me, rather than the clubs :sl*p:).

I have absolutely no doubt that if regional or national breed clubs made any meaningful effort at all to organize members to scan and then approached a scanning center, they could negotiate a discount rate. If the breed clubs were liaising closely with researchers and talking to them about their serious concerns about SM, I have no doubt that prices would drop and more research projects would be undertaken in the US as well.

Using the excuse that many people are far away from scanning centers–as stated in this CKCSC breeder questions–is also a nonsense. Not only do most large cities have some kind of MRI center, meaning most people will be less than a day's drive from one, but increasingly, even some large vet practices either have an MRI or make use of a mobile MRI unit. And it is odd that any breed club would make the excuse of the distance breeders would need to travel for an MRI, when the very same breed club members travel enormous distances to attend dog shows.:sl*p:

Plenty of responsible breeders are doing great things to support health in this breed. It's a shame that more of their club members do not listen to them or speak to them–and it's also a shame that in far too many cases, such role models and up being ostracized and in some cases, removed–either directly or indirectly–from committee roles.

anniemac
12th August 2011, 04:54 PM
What I meant to say, the more tests would make it hard to find a cavalier perfectly "clear". Some may say ask breeders for BAER certificates. Great if a breeder did this test but would I rule a breeder out from buying a puppy without this but followed other protocols and tests? No.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Karlin
12th August 2011, 05:17 PM
But as the researchers have said over and over–this is already well recognized and nobody is arguing that breeders need to produce only perfect dogs (and they never will anyway–pedigree dogs are going to always risk having breed-related health issues of some sort but a responsible breeder does the testing that enables them to know as best as possible what their breeding dogs are carrying, and then they make an intelligent decision on whether that dog should be used for breeding at all).

The SM breeding guidelines clearly state that the reason it is considered necessary to allow for A to D matings is precisely for this point–that a dog with a very small syrinx and without pain, may nonetheless have, say, an excellent heart. If that dog is, say, an older stud dog who still only has a small syrinx, no pain, and great heart health, then that makes that dog a potentially valuable breeding dog and this totally fits within the SM breeding guidelines (shame more breeders don'I know t actually seem to read them...).

No one I know is arguing that breeders are supposed to produce only dogs that always pass every single test–and at any rate, many of these conditions in Cavaliers only show up when they are older anyway; the whole point is that breeder should at least have dogs that remain clear until age 5 or so to try to push these horrible conditions off so that they are late onset and then more likely to be less serious and less painful.

This argument about 'perfect dogs' is just a breeder red herring, a ridiculous argument that puppy buyers or researchers are trying to "force" them to breed these perfect dogs that will never fail a single test. The fact that it is being mentioned here at all points out how successful a small group are in using this fallacious argument to steer attention away from the fact that so many of them still do not do even the basic tests for the most widespread/devastating health issues–cardiology testing for MVD, and MRI scanning for syringomyelia. Personally, a lot of us would be perfectly happy if breeders were required to do only those 2 tests. The fact that barely over a dozen UK dogs registered to do the genetic test for episodic falling and curly coat, when they had supposedly been saying how much they wanted DNA tests, just underlines that what people say and what they actually mean and do are often very different things.

RodRussell
12th August 2011, 05:41 PM
... Even though some will say more should be on the website or Rod may mention the MVD protocol, in my opinion, the breed clubs is the best place to start.

To start what?

What is on those breed club websites not only is bogus, but their MVD recommendations have been proven not to work! So, do you want to "start" by wasting your time? Or, like most of the breeders in those clubs, do you want to use the clubs' "recommendations" as cover for you not doing what needs to be done?


.. I feel the more genetic tests and health protocols, the harder it is for breeders.

This is pathetic! Boo-hoo to those breeders who don't even try to reduce early-onset MVD in their litters, or don't even try to eliminate SM. It is just too hard for them to try to do that, because there are so many tests! Bull-oney!!! If any cavalier breeder cannot bring herself to follow the essential breeding protocols -- MVD, SM, CERF, hips, patellas -- then she should pack it in and move on to destroying some other breed!

RodRussell
12th August 2011, 05:43 PM
What I meant to say, the more tests would make it hard to find a cavalier perfectly "clear". Some may say ask breeders for BAER certificates. Great if a breeder did this test but would I rule a breeder out from buying a puppy without this but followed other protocols and tests? No.

Do you know what it means to flunk the BAER test?

anniemac
12th August 2011, 06:15 PM
Do you know what it means to flunk the BAER test?

Yikes, no. I am mentioning that because I saw very few on the ofa database. I did not say I would accept one that flunked.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

anniemac
12th August 2011, 06:33 PM
Do you know what it means to flunk the BAER test?

I give up. It's hard enough finding a breeder who has two parents scanned, followed MVD protocol etc. however, maybe those that do have BAER tests. I'm not telling others to disregard it, just my personal feelings. Doesn't mean I would not ask. Anyway, the whole point of the article is a breeder who did more than recommending health testing. I don't know that BAER testing or DM is recommended but thank goodness there are some that do.

RodRussell
12th August 2011, 07:13 PM
... I did not say I would accept one that flunked.

What about getting a puppy from a breeding pair that were not BAER tested, and then the puppy goes deaf by age 3 years? I know it's not as bad as SM, but progressive hearing loss is another big problem in this breed.

Ignore the MVD breeding protocol, and your puppy develops early-onset MVD and dies young. Ignore the CERF tests, and your puppy becomes blind. Ignore the hips exam, and you pay for hip surgery (probably double hip surgery). Ignore the patellar luxation exam and you pay for knee surgery.

After all, it is just a matter of paying money to vets, right? It's not like the dog would suffer or anything, right?

RodRussell
12th August 2011, 07:17 PM
... Anyway, the whole point of the article is a breeder who did more than recommending health testing. ...

I don't even know what that article is anymore. But if the breeder did more than a worthless list of recommended testing, that is not doing much. Either the breeder follows the important breeding protocols, or the breeding is cheating future generations of her dogs.

anniemac
12th August 2011, 07:39 PM
/
What about getting a puppy from a breeding pair that were not BAER tested, and then the puppy goes deaf by age 3 years? I know it's not as bad as SM, but progressive hearing loss is another big problem in this breed.

Ignore the MVD breeding protocol, and your puppy develops early-onset MVD and dies young. Ignore the CERF tests, and your puppy becomes blind. Ignore the hips exam, and you pay for hip surgery (probably double hip surgery). Ignore the patellar luxation exam and you pay for knee surgery.

After all, it is just a matter of paying money to vets, right? It's not like the dog would suffer or anything, right?

Goodness rod! I honestly need to read more about baer testing. You forgot the ef de/cc. Then factor in COI which some people say to ask.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

anniemac
12th August 2011, 08:00 PM
Rod,

Since we can both agree that breeders have known about MVD and had information since 1998 on following the "recommended" protocol but yet you would argue that some still don't follow it, do you really think it would be easy to find a breeder that does all the testing you mentioned?

RodRussell
12th August 2011, 11:19 PM
Rod,

Since we can both agree that breeders have known about MVD and had information since 1998 on following the "recommended" protocol but yet you would argue that some still don't follow it, do you really think it would be easy to find a breeder that does all the testing you mentioned?

No, of course it is not easy. Most all cavalier breeders in the US don't follow the MVD breeding protocol. So that one alone disqualifies the vast majority.

Soushiruiuma
13th August 2011, 12:14 AM
No, of course it is not easy. Most all cavalier breeders in the US don't follow the MVD breeding protocol. So that one alone disqualifies the vast majority.

This absolutely true, a fair number of breeders will follow the crippled and ineffective method suggested by ACKSC, but precious few care enough to follow the true MVD protocol.

It is worth mentioning that there is no price difference between the version suggested by ACKSC, and true protocol. The big factor is delaying breeding.

anniemac
13th August 2011, 05:31 AM
It is worth mentioning that there is no price difference between the version suggested by ACKSC, and true protocol. The big factor is delaying breeding.

What do you mean by no price difference? In puppies?

I just don't understand why one has to buy a puppy buying book. I guess they have breeder referrals but do you buy guide before contact? I know want to buy it because I'm curious.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

anniemac
13th August 2011, 05:47 AM
So I paid $2 to get book, but now I have to wait for it to be mailed. By the time a genuine puppy buyer gets information, I bet they found a non club breeder who was one click away. I'm in a bad mood sorry.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Soushiruiuma
13th August 2011, 04:20 PM
What do you mean by no price difference? In puppies?

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

I mean that the out of pocket expense is the same for the breeder. If they get hearts checked and start breeding at 2 years old (I believe that is the ACKSC suggested age), or if they hold off till the dog is 2.5 years old before breeding.
They still only have to pay for the auscultation, so the excuse that testing is too expensive doesn't hold for MVD.

anniemac
13th August 2011, 08:34 PM
Can I just say that I went to the mail (after I spent $2 on puppy buying guide which I heard was not great) and got a package with all of this cavalier information, guides, health, etc from a breeder that I will not say on public forum but rod knows who I'm talking about. There are some that really stand out (not just this one) but others that take time to educate people when they call, and yes there are some that spend a lot of money on testing, driving, organizing clinics and so I say thank you to them.

She paid money to help educate others but I had to pay money for other.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Nalu
17th August 2011, 04:37 PM
I just heard about a Cavalier in the midwest (U.S.) that lived in good health for over 19 years. The owner bought another one from the same breeder. Are there serious efforts to identify breeders of dogs with exceptional longevity to generate more healthy puppies and save the breed?

RodRussell
17th August 2011, 05:13 PM
Can I just say that I went to the mail (after I spent $2 on puppy buying guide which I heard was not great) and got a package with all of this cavalier information, guides, health, etc from a breeder that I will not say on public forum but rod knows who I'm talking about. There are some that really stand out (not just this one) but others that take time to educate people when they call, and yes there are some that spend a lot of money on testing, driving, organizing clinics and so I say thank you to them.

She paid money to help educate others but I had to pay money for other.

That breeder sounds like what Pat Winters (Cobblestone Cavaliers) of Suffolk, Virginia does. Anne Eckersley (Chadwick Cavaliers) of Hawleyville, Connecticut does, too. They've been doing things like that since the early 1990s at least, maybe earlier than that. They have been called "health nazis" by other long-time cavalier breeders who are contemptuous of them caring enough about the breed's severe genetic health disorders to actually faithfully follow the breeding protocols.

anniemac
17th August 2011, 08:27 PM
That breeder sounds like what Pat Winters (Cobblestone Cavaliers) of Suffolk, Virginia does. Anne Eckersley (Chadwick Cavaliers) of Hawleyville, Connecticut does, too. They've been doing things like that since the early 1990s at least, maybe earlier than that. They have been called "health nazis" by other long-time cavalier breeders who are contemptuous of them caring enough about the breed's severe genetic health disorders to actually faithfully follow the breeding protocols.

Maybe they could get regional club website updated because it doesn't even mention SM!! (Also notice age)

http://www.eastcoastcavalierbreeders.com/East%20Coast%20Questions%20to%20Ask%20Breeder.html


Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

anniemac
17th August 2011, 08:51 PM
Maybe they could get regional club website updated because it doesn't even mention SM!! (Also notice age)

http://www.eastcoastcavalierbreeders.com/East%20Coast%20Questions%20to%20Ask%20Breeder.html


Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

However,

Since I know these two fought to keep mvd protocol age at 2 1/2 but had no luck, I don't think they could.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Kate H
17th August 2011, 09:04 PM
Getting back a bit to where this thread started, there was an interesting bit in the Irish Setter notes in Our Dogs paper recently. Six dogs have been diagnosed with a hereditary disease called Late Onset Progressive Retinal Atrophy (Cavalier eye tests are for early onset PRA). So what do Irish Setter breeders do? The club chairman issues a statement explaining the situation, stating that the Animal Health Trust is hoping to develop a DNA test in the near future 'and when it is available the scale of the problem in the breed can be assessed and an appropriate strategy to eradicate the condition can begin. Until that time the Committee advises against panic and il-informed rumour. While [this] is a serious and unwanted development, we should take heart that previous genetic problems in the breed [the eradication of night blindness is a classic example of good practice] have been conquered by dedicated breeders implementing controlled breeding schemes, and there is no reason to doubt an eradication programme, when launched, will be successful.'

A second statement lists the six dogs already identified by name, and says 'These names are being published with the permission of their owners/breeders in a spirit of openness in order to alert responsible owners and breeders and to prevent the propagation of unfounded rumours.' And I have no doubt that when the DNA test appears it will be a BVA/KC scheme (of the kind planned for CM/SM in Cavaliers) and the dogs tested will be named in the Kennel Gazette and have the result added to their registration papers.

If Irish Setter breeders can tackle a health problem in this way, why oh why can't Cavalier breeders??

Kate (and Oliver and Aled on holiday)

RodRussell
17th August 2011, 09:57 PM
Maybe they could get regional club website updated because it doesn't even mention SM!! (Also notice age)

That is what this webpage -- http://cavalierhealth.org/questions_for_breeder.htm -- is for.

anniemac
17th August 2011, 10:32 PM
That is what this webpage -- http://cavalierhealth.org/questions_for_breeder.htm -- is for.

I never go to this website? I've never read these questions. Just kidding! Really good tips on where to start to look.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

anniemac
17th August 2011, 11:03 PM
Getting back a bit to where this thread started, there was an interesting bit in the Irish Setter notes in Our Dogs paper recently. Six dogs have been diagnosed with a hereditary disease called Late Onset Progressive Retinal Atrophy (Cavalier eye tests are for early onset PRA). So what do Irish Setter breeders do? The club chairman issues a statement explaining the situation, stating that the Animal Health Trust is hoping to develop a DNA test in the near future 'and when it is available the scale of the problem in the breed can be assessed and an appropriate strategy to eradicate the condition can begin. Until that time the Committee advises against panic and il-informed rumour. While [this] is a serious and unwanted development, we should take heart that previous genetic problems in the breed [the eradication of night blindness is a classic example of good practice] have been conquered by dedicated breeders implementing controlled breeding schemes, and there is no reason to doubt an eradication programme, when launched, will be successful.'

A second statement lists the six dogs already identified by name, and says 'These names are being published with the permission of their owners/breeders in a spirit of openness in order to alert responsible owners and breeders and to prevent the propagation of unfounded rumours.' And I have no doubt that when the DNA test appears it will be a BVA/KC scheme (of the kind planned for CM/SM in Cavaliers) and the dogs tested will be named in the Kennel Gazette and have the result added to their registration papers.

If Irish Setter breeders can tackle a health problem in this way, why oh why can't Cavalier breeders??

Kate (and Oliver and Aled on holiday)

Back to the point. That's a really good example. There some others like that I think too.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk