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gamefanz
21st September 2011, 02:03 PM
Last night we went to a puppy social with Toby (who is 5 months today). I thought this would go a lot better than taking him to the dog park again. There were several dogs there. At the beginning we were in a fenced area, waited for the pups to calm and then let them off the leash. At first all went well but there was a great dane and a doberman there that were so tall and would trample Toby or chase him down with the huge paws. There was also a baby pug there that acted like a big dog. He snarled at Toby and would climb on his back. I think the snarling scared Toby. There was a Springer Spaniel there that Toby liked. The spaniel would actually allow Toby to kiss it and smell it. There was also a lab there that was gentle too. The Aussie was very playful as was most of the dogs there. A lot of wrestling to the ground happened. Toby spent most of his time, nose to the ground or trying to stay out of the way.
Toby is really just a gentlemen who wants to kiss or smell and a little play, nothing rough. I don't see many dogs who are like this. I don't know if Toby will ever be a wrestler. Is this a Cavalier trait? Is this just the way my dog will be, a lover not a wrestler? I don't know how to get him out of his shell to play like a puppy. He seems more like an adult who just wants to be with a pup and not wrestle. Is this a normal behavior?
After some play in the fenced area we went inside for massage time. We would be seated with the dogs and would massage the to get them to relax. Then after that we tied them to the poles then would travel the room giving snacks to each dog that did not jump on us. Then back out to the yard to play. I was really hoping to see Toby really make friends but the Spaniel seemed to be the only one he wanted to be with. The Spaniel and Aussie played a lot so Toby didn't have much time with the Spaniel.
The spaniel will not be there next week but will be back the week after. I am unsure whether we should go again or not.
Is there anyone elses pups like this? Are they more gentle than rough and tough? Do they like kissing more than wrestling?
Thanks
Becky

Sabby
21st September 2011, 02:15 PM
Dogs are not all the same they are like us some people we like some we donít.

My Harley was like that as a pup and he is still like it now he is 3 years old. He hated ruff play as a pup and would only do it with my other 2 Cavaliers at home. Even now he is very selective in what dogs he likes. First I thought it was big dogs he didnít like but some of his friends are really big dogs, even a Great Dane but they are all gentle dogs. I always encouraged him to play with all types of dogs but in the end I thought itís no good forcing it as it would make it worse. He is through and through a mummyís boy but one good thing is he pays attention to everything i do and he is a fantastic Obedience dog.

gamefanz
21st September 2011, 02:27 PM
Thank you for the reply. I guess I am trying to do things differently than I did with my Peke. I was so afraid our Peke would get hurt that I really didn't encourage him to play with bigger more out going dogs. He was definitely a peoples dog.
I really do think Toby is like your Harley. He LOVES to work and was really trying to get my husbands attention last night to work. He wanted everyone to see what he can do I think. The trainer there said we may be doing wrong by working him while in there and giving treats. It encourage Toby to stay close to us. In our defense we really felt bad for him. He would either be chased or wrestled to the ground so he was on his back. So we tried to cheer him up by working him.
If we could find that one dog that Toby is comfortable with and actually make friends with these people I would be over joyed. The spaniels parents are older folks who live on the opposite side of the city than we do. I tried asking questions in hopes they would want to get together sometime but it didn't happen. Oh well.
I do feel better now that there is at least someone out there that had a gentle pup.
Becky





Dogs are not all the same they are like us some people we like some we donít.

My Harley was like that as a pup and he is still like it now he is 3 years old. He hated ruff play as a pup and would only do it with my other 2 Cavaliers at home. Even now he is very selective in what dogs he likes. First I thought it was big dogs he didnít like but some of his friends are really big dogs, even a Great Dane but they are all gentle dogs. I always encouraged him to play with all types of dogs but in the end I thought itís no good forcing it as it would make it worse. He is through and through a mummyís boy but one good thing is he pays attention to everything i do and he is a fantastic Obedience dog.

sunshinekisses
21st September 2011, 04:32 PM
Playing with other dogs is so over-rated. I prefer calm interaction that an obedience class offers. Dogs can sniff each other and learn how to be calm with each other. Both my cavaliers were freaked out a little in puppy class because of the big dogs. Big dog puppies just play a little more rough. It is their nature I guess. Personally I think it does more harm to a puppy to be bullied by a dog then to have little interaction with other dogs. Can you find someone close that has an older dog that your puppy can socialize with? Or you can get the phone number from the spaniel owner and make play dates. Cavaliers are people dogs anyway. The main goal of socializing a puppy is that they aren't afraid of other dogs, or learn to be bullies. Most dog aggression I have seen in small dogs is because the dog is afraid and learns to lash out to prevent harm to itself.

gamefanz
21st September 2011, 04:53 PM
Thank you for saying that. I thought maybe its something we have done wrong. I don't want him to be aggressive or roll over every time he sees a dog. He did well in his puppy class because it was small and more 1 on 1 instead of 6 or 8 dogs on a full sprint to get to your dog. I wish we had more time to socialize with the humans but we were told at the beginning of the playtime that we are there for the dogs not to chat with each other, we need to pay attention to make sure it doesn't get out of hand and if it does we are to step in. I thought that was good but at the end of class she said she needs us to go now because she has a HUGE class coming in for training and they need the parking spots. So we had such little time to talk to one another. The parking is so tight that you have to wait your turn to get out because people have to do 3 point turns to get out. So no phone number from the spaniel parents :(
I was so upset at how things went last night and worried for Toby that I was almost in tears in the car :( I just have to accept that he will be a gentle loving dog and hope we can find someone who has one too. Right now we do not know of anyone that has an older dog that is gentle besides my parents collie. He is 7 years old now and 100 lbs. He does like to play a little but mainly likes to make sure the puppy is near him at all times (herding). They live 3 states away though so no visiting until 1 of us is ready for a long drive.
I think we will try the other dog park sometime soon to see if we can find that springer or another gentle dog and if we don't find one we will leave. On an happy note, I hope to meet a member of this group this weekend. I hope our dogs hit it off, crossing fingers!

Becky

Zumie05
21st September 2011, 05:23 PM
Toby is really just a gentlemen who wants to kiss or smell and a little play, nothing rough. I don't see many dogs who are like this. I don't know if Toby will ever be a wrestler. Is this a Cavalier trait? Is this just the way my dog will be, a lover not a wrestler? I don't know how to get him out of his shell to play like a puppy. He seems more like an adult who just wants to be with a pup and not wrestle. Is this a normal behavior?
Is there anyone elses pups like this? Are they more gentle than rough and tough? Do they like kissing more than wrestling?Becky

You described Coco perfectly. She LOVES other dogs, big or small, but is very put off by wrestling. Coco will run up to any dog and sniff and give kisses, and thats the end of it. She doesn't do chasing or wrestling, and if other dogs try to wrestle with her she will tuck her tail and dodge and look scared. Most of the time she will roll over onto her back and show her little tum tum! I think this is pretty normal behavior for very submissive Cavaliers. They love everyone and everything, but just want to love more than play lol.

There is ONE dog Coco and I met once that got along with her very well. It was a Chihuahua Cavalier mix (it looked like) and they both wanted to cuddle and kiss eachother the whole time, it was the cutest thing ever.

gamefanz
21st September 2011, 05:28 PM
Oh goodness, could we have found play mates for our dogs? I sure hope these 2 get along. I would love for him to make a friend. I'm so glad Coco is the same way. I guess maybe it is a Cavalier thing :confused:

Becky





You described Coco perfectly. She LOVES other dogs, big or small, but is very put off by wrestling. Coco will run up to any dog and sniff and give kisses, and thats the end of it. She doesn't do chasing or wrestling, and if other dogs try to wrestle with her she will tuck her tail and dodge and look scared. Most of the time she will roll over onto her back and show her little tum tum! I think this is pretty normal behavior for very submissive Cavaliers. They love everyone and everything, but just want to love more than play lol.

There is ONE dog Coco and I met once that got along with her very well. It was a Chihuahua Cavalier mix (it looked like) and they both wanted to cuddle and kiss eachother the whole time, it was the cutest thing ever.

Zumie05
21st September 2011, 05:53 PM
On an happy note, I hope to meet a member of this group this weekend. I hope our dogs hit it off, crossing fingers!

Becky

I think they will. Even if we don't end up being able to go out this weekend, at least we are in the same state! I think Toby and Coco will get along fine haha.

BrooklynMom
21st September 2011, 11:59 PM
I am proud of you for getting Toby out there and trying all of these new things! It is very much trail and error of what works for you and your dog, but it is also really important for puppies to socialize with other dogs as much as they can when they are young. Now, I'm not saying socialize with just any dog :) but well balanced dogs that you feel are a fit with Toby (which it might take a while to find so hang in there, I know it is hard). This is important because dogs need to learn to gain confidence, independence and general doggy manners that only other (well balanced dogs) dogs can really teach them. But you know best and have to make sure you are monitoring for Toby since he has no control over this part...which you are doing a great job at!
I know some people say that certain dogs are "people dogs" or just like people better, but we have to always remember that they are dogs. They are not our children (okay, I am quilty of thinking I bread Brooklyn myself! ha), and they are not human. We have to honor that part of them in a safe and structured environment, and we do need to honor their species which is dog first. With that said, I know Cav's are much more "huamn oriented", Brooklyn definitely is, but I also know it is important to socialize her to keep her balanced and fulfilled, get her out with other dogs and enrich her in a way that only other dogs can. But like I said in your dog park post...it takes a while to find the right park, the right play mates, the right everything. So keep sticking with it, if this play group makes you uncomfortable and it is a bit rambunctious for wee little Toby, then you can try something else or maybe talk to the instructor about having "small dog" nights or something for the dogs that want to be social in a "tea party fashion" not a WWF fashion. Ha.

But again, it is important to help our pups gain confidence. Brooklyn might still get startled every once in a while if a new big dog comes into the dog park, but I never rescue her. I ask the owner "is your dog okay?" first and foremost, and if that dog is okay, but Brooklyn is not okay, then at least I know Brooklyn is safe on a physical level, but I know maybe on an emotional level it is time to either leave the park or move to the other side. But I always just attach the leash and do it like no big deal. Young pups will take a while to get their confidence up, so you are right so start with the gentle, softer play dogs for right now.
Brooklyn does not wrestle either (unless it is with her cavvie friend Ruby who is the same age as her...she is the ONLY one Brooklyn plays that way with). Brooklyn wants to sniff, chase, and run after the other dogs like tag. So I just manage her play, some big dogs are great (labs in particular are Brooklyn's fav!) and some even small dogs are just too much for her. So I manage just like you are doing. It is such a fine line between letting them be a puppy and figuring things out to helping them or taking them out of a situation.

It is so trial and error, you are doing all the right things though! Keep trying the dog parks, socail clubs, classes, etc. in your own time...but I bet one day you will stumble on the perfect combo for Toby :) It might be worth talking to the social group's leader about your experience, he/she might be really helpful in a solution.

Oh, one other idea I had...are there any other levels of puppy classes you could bring her to? With Brooklyn's training, there were 3 levels of puppy classes and adolescent classes. I found this was wonderful for her socialization, but it was all obediance and training which is great bonding too. And really structured with our trainer that was the same trainer the whole way through. So it was not boisterous and full on play, it was training and "Learning" how to play.
Also, if I ever feel the dog park is too crowded one day or too chaotic, I will just walk Brooklyn to the beach or a local cafe where I know she will pass and see lots of dogs. It 's not "playing" per say, but it does socialize her, gives a few sniffs here and there and it is a really controlled way to get her out into the world :)

gamefanz
22nd September 2011, 12:35 AM
Thank you for the reply and advice. I promise I won't give up on socializing him but I think we need to put him in a situation where he will not fail. Maybe 2 or 3 dogs at most in the play area and hopefully more 1 on 1 time. I think he does better that way. I need to find dogs that are more gentle in their play instead of crazy LOL
The trainer that is in charge really did not seem the type that would understand having a smaller group. She told me over the phone that only well mannered dogs would be allowed and no bullying would be tolerated. Some of the situations last night really bordered on that as far as I am concerned. Not just with Toby but with other dogs playing. In her tone last night, I didn't feel the love KWIM?
We plan to take the intermediate course for Petsmart soon. Things here have been crazy lately. So busy and exploring new things. The only time we could do the classes is on weekends so we need to check it out.
We do go for walks around the capital lake here where people are walking their dogs. Sometimes people stop and allow him to sniff the dogs and sometimes not. I hate to say it cause I love this state, sometimes WA can be a bit stuffy. People really do not socialize with strangers. Its more of a keep to yourself state, at least where I am it is.
No worries though, I will keep trying.
Becky

LovesJellyBeans
22nd September 2011, 12:48 AM
I have found that my puppy (now 1 year-old) didn't ever like being around a lot of other dogs at one time. He seems much calmer around other dogs one-on-one. However, the exception to this rule is other Cavaliers. He loves being around his own kind... I think it helps that they as a breed tend to be calmer and less likely to jump at or on him, which he absolutely hates.

I still try and take him to the dog park on occasion, but he rarely strays far from me, preferring to stay at my feet if other dogs approach him.

BrooklynMom
22nd September 2011, 01:48 AM
LovesJellyBean brought up a good point....the exception to the rule is always cavaliers together! :)

Is there a cavalier club near you? Or a casual cavalier meet up group? Maybe contact some breeders or cav owners in your area and ask or maybe even start one up yourself?!
You are right in that bullying is not okay, and will just make our pups more scared. It is the long process of finding that right mix/park/play group. It must be a frustrating endless search, but you are doing a great job and trying so many new things!!!

Also, I just thought of this... I am a member of a site in Australia called Dog Tree (http://www.dogtree.com.au), it is basically a site where people come together that have dogs in your area and look for play mates, park buddies, socials, get togethers, someone to keep pup company what home alone, etc. Check it out and see if something like that exist in your area? Because you can also search by breed, so I am friends with a few Cav owners on there and I have met up at the local park with another small dog owner. It is nice because you can go through all those questions in advance...like I always say that Brooklyn is very calm, does not like rambunctious play, etc. and you meet nice people. There is a cavalier meet up group on there that meets once a month too, but it is not in my state :(

Just trying to brain storm! :) If you want to fly Toby to Sydney, we can have a play date! Ha.

gamefanz
22nd September 2011, 02:08 AM
Thank you for your experience. It really does help knowing we are not alone with the calmness. Are you the one that belongs to the cav group in the seattle area? It should would be awesome if we could find the time some day to travel up there for a get together.

Becky



I have found that my puppy (now 1 year-old) didn't ever like being around a lot of other dogs at one time. He seems much calmer around other dogs one-on-one. However, the exception to this rule is other Cavaliers. He loves being around his own kind... I think it helps that they as a breed tend to be calmer and less likely to jump at or on him, which he absolutely hates.

I still try and take him to the dog park on occasion, but he rarely strays far from me, preferring to stay at my feet if other dogs approach him.

gamefanz
22nd September 2011, 02:15 AM
Sadly there is no meet up groups or play groups in my area for Cavaliers. You do not see many down where I live. There is a group in the Seattle area though but its over an hr from me. Not sure about breeders or Major Cavalier group for show/agility but for now we are mainly focused on play. I have searched the internet until I am blue in the face for meet ups. My best bet is day care but I really don't need him in day care.
I'm not sure of a general dog site that you can put your info and get an answer back on a dog that would fit for him. I will have to search it out. I'm just generally sad that there are very little Cavaliers in my area.
I will keep on my search though.
Becky


LovesJellyBean brought up a good point....the exception to the rule is always cavaliers together! :)

Is there a cavalier club near you? Or a casual cavalier meet up group? Maybe contact some breeders or cav owners in your area and ask or maybe even start one up yourself?!
You are right in that bullying is not okay, and will just make our pups more scared. It is the long process of finding that right mix/park/play group. It must be a frustrating endless search, but you are doing a great job and trying so many new things!!!

Also, I just thought of this... I am a member of a site in Australia called Dog Tree (http://www.dogtree.com.au), it is basically a site where people come together that have dogs in your area and look for play mates, park buddies, socials, get togethers, someone to keep pup company what home alone, etc. Check it out and see if something like that exist in your area? Because you can also search by breed, so I am friends with a few Cav owners on there and I have met up at the local park with another small dog owner. It is nice because you can go through all those questions in advance...like I always say that Brooklyn is very calm, does not like rambunctious play, etc. and you meet nice people. There is a cavalier meet up group on there that meets once a month too, but it is not in my state :(

Just trying to brain storm! :) If you want to fly Toby to Sydney, we can have a play date! Ha.

Kate H
22nd September 2011, 11:51 AM
Have you thought of asking your vet? He or she is likely to know most of the dogs in your area - especially puppies who have been in for their shots.

At the same time, I wouldn't be too worried if you can't find another dog. We think puppies should play - but I'm not sure all Cavaliers think the same, as long as they have their owners to play with! Until I had Aled I only had one Cavalier at a time; they were quite friendly with other dogs we met, but none of them - even when we went out for walks with friends and their dogs and they were all off-lead - showed any inclination to play. They were quite happy to interact with humans, say hello to other dogs in passing, and investigate every tree and blade of grass for interesting smells! The exception was other Cavaliers - they would very occasionally run around with them; Aled enjoyed having five to play with when he was away with a friend while I was in hospital, but doesn't seem to miss it now he's home.

Kate, Oliver and Aled

gamefanz
22nd September 2011, 01:43 PM
Thank you for the response. I know she has mentioned seeing a few Cavaliers in her practice. Not sure if she would hand me phone numbers though. I could give her mine to give out to Cavalier owners.
Its nice to see so many other Cavaliers who are not too big on playing rough. Toby really loves having his nose to the ground. I'm sure if we found the right dog he would love to play with them. Toby LOVES people. He kept trying to get everyones attention at the puppy social.
Becky



Have you thought of asking your vet? He or she is likely to know most of the dogs in your area - especially puppies who have been in for their shots.

At the same time, I wouldn't be too worried if you can't find another dog. We think puppies should play - but I'm not sure all Cavaliers think the same, as long as they have their owners to play with! Until I had Aled I only had one Cavalier at a time; they were quite friendly with other dogs we met, but none of them - even when we went out for walks with friends and their dogs and they were all off-lead - showed any inclination to play. They were quite happy to interact with humans, say hello to other dogs in passing, and investigate every tree and blade of grass for interesting smells! The exception was other Cavaliers - they would very occasionally run around with them; Aled enjoyed having five to play with when he was away with a friend while I was in hospital, but doesn't seem to miss it now he's home.

Kate, Oliver and Aled

LovesJellyBeans
22nd September 2011, 07:33 PM
Becky, one of these days I will try and schedule a 'far' south event. One of my meet-up members lives near Tacoma, and her dog is very sweet. If you'd like I can try and get her your contact info and see if she'd be willing to meet with you at a local park sometime. Or maybe you guys might be able to work out a carpool to attend one of the Seattle Meet-ups.
If you'd like me to send her your info, just PM me your e-mail address and a little intro I can send her.
Traci

gamefanz
22nd September 2011, 10:50 PM
The weirdest thing just happened.
I walked out my front door to take Toby for a walk and across the street was a lady taking her dogs for a walk. She has a mini Aussie & a Black/Tan Cavalier! I have lived in this neighborhood for over 1 year and have never seen these dogs before. As we starting talking across the streets, her Aussie was going crazy. He was barking and showing aggression. I asked if he was friendly and she said not really. He is very over protective of the cavalier. So I was very cautious. The female is 4 years old and 13 lbs not fixed. She asked where I got him and how old he was. She said he was beautiful then asked if we want to breed him. I couldn't believe she asked that right out. I said no he is just a pet and we are under contract not to breed. She said thats too bad. She said she wants to breed her cavalier but she can't find a male that is just as small as she is. She wants to breed small ones..I was shocked. Then I asked her if she knows about SM and she said no. I told her a little about it (short form as the aussie was insane) and she said she is not concerned with that.
It made me real sad. She wants to bring over her Cavalier to play with Toby but with Toby starting his male habits I am really scared to do that. I don't know what to do about an actually meeting with a female that is still intact and an owner who WANTS to breed. The 2 dogs did meet nose to nose but nothing to touchy feely. Toby peed all over the street, not sure if it was from the female or the Aussie that was crazy barking.
I was so excited at first to see another Cavalier in the neighborhood.
Becky

Kate H
22nd September 2011, 11:04 PM
I've had this too from someone who lived nearby and stopped me in the street to ask if Oliver could mate her bitch - she hadn't even heard of heart problems, let alone SM! What a shame, though, that the only Cavalier nearby has such a criminally stupid owner. I wouldn't let Toby anywhere near her - I bet if you started meeting up she wouldn't tell you when her bitch was in season in the hope that Toby would perform!

Kate, Oliver and Aled

denali
22nd September 2011, 11:09 PM
That happened a few years ago when cavaliers were 'the' dog to have.
They were everywhere, not so much anymore. Which i suppose is a good thing, because it stops people like that.

But it was with our old boy Anzac!
He was a handsome boy and would have made a wonderful show dog, but he was neutered because we never planned to breed him.
We had a guy with a tiny blenheim ask if he could borrow our boy!
We just said sorry, he is fixed.
He went on for about 20 minutes about how much of a shame that was becaus ethe puppies would have been wonderful!

He too didn't care about the testing.

gamefanz
22nd September 2011, 11:11 PM
I have to tell you I feel the same way. I just talked with my husband, he feels differently. He wants them to play...UGH! I told him that maybe we can meet on a neutral street and let them smell on leash but I am not sure about actually meeting in my backyard!
I am already crazy over Toby's new found male habits let alone having an intact female near him!
Becky



I've had this too from someone who lived nearby and stopped me in the street to ask if Oliver could mate her bitch - she hadn't even heard of heart problems, let alone SM! What a shame, though, that the only Cavalier nearby has such a criminally stupid owner. I wouldn't let Toby anywhere near her - I bet if you started meeting up she wouldn't tell you when her bitch was in season in the hope that Toby would perform!

Kate, Oliver and Aled

BrooklynMom
22nd September 2011, 11:39 PM
Oh Becky! Unfortunately, we have all had to have this conversation too much!! I had this happen about a month ago with a woman who had the audacity to tell me that SM was not in Australia because we have quarantine. Oye. But good for you for bringing up the topic and putting it out there. Every mouth that opens and every person that just tells one more person, is a great benefit to awareness about this disease. It may have fell on deaf ears (I know mine have), but I always hope one day, someday, it will sink into their gray matter and maybe they will google it. Maybe they will ask their vet. Maybe the will ask someone else. Who knows, but you did your part, good job.

I am with Kate on this one (and I hate to be cynical, but I am), I would be very wary of having them play until Toby gets fixed...especially not off leash! It won't be that long to wait anyway and you could actually make it not an awkward convo by just saying..."I would love them to play, Toby will be fixed in "x months" and it would be great to hang out then...maybe we can exchange numbers?" you could then go on to maybe even breech the subject again of "oh, I am just a member of a Cavalier organization that focuses on the health and future of the breed, and knowing so much about syringomyelia and inherited genetic diseases in the breed, I just need to be responsible that Toby is not around intact females until he is desexed as I would be crushed if I ever contributed to this disease since Toby has not been MRI cleared" NOW, I know that puts it more back on you, which I did on purpose because then it almost talks about the issue from Toby's side (even though it is so HER issue so don't think I am glossing over that!!), but it makes it less threatening and more open if we talk about it from our side vs. thiers you know? Same as a relationship argument, ha ha. It might actually get her thinking since you are serious enough to not even let your dogs play together til Toby is desexed, that this must be a pretty serious thing to you.

That might work. I would really be wary of play time before desexing since her intentions were breeding first off the pitch. But after Toby is desexed, maybe you guys can have some play dates, maybe you will get along, maybe the conversation will be about cavs a lot and you guys can have friendly discussions about all of this (health, breeding etc.). It sounds like she actually does not know a lot vs. knowing and doing it anyways, so maybe some gentle, friendly education is in order. That actually might be your gift of friendship to her, who knows. You can't blame people who don't know, you can just try to educate them :l*v: (though, you can blame people who are educated and just close their ears!!).

Cute little Toby, he seems to already have the first few chapters written of a very adventurous book! :)

gamefanz
22nd September 2011, 11:47 PM
Thank you for the advice. I think she could tell by my tone that I was not comfortable with them playing because Toby is not fixed but if she does approach me again I will try to tell her that I am also unsure if he has SM because he hasn't been tested so I would hate for something to go wrong. I'm glad though that I am not the only one who sees red flags. I'm gonna show my husband this post LOL
We will be trying the intact female thing this weekend (I hope) with Zumie but she is just as careful as I am so I think we can make it work and see how Toby goes with it. I know Coco will be a sweety its just boy hormones we have to worry about. Good thing is, its not on our property so I hope he does not mark when he comes home.
Becky



Oh Becky! Unfortunately, we have all had to have this conversation too much!! I had this happen about a month ago with a woman who had the audacity to tell me that SM was not in Australia because we have quarantine. Oye. But good for you for bringing up the topic and putting it out there. Every mouth that opens and every person that just tells one more person, is a great benefit to awareness about this disease. It may have fell on deaf ears (I know mine have), but I always hope one day, someday, it will sink into their gray matter and maybe they will google it. Maybe they will ask their vet. Maybe the will ask someone else. Who knows, but you did your part, good job.

I am with Kate on this one (and I hate to be cynical, but I am), I would be very wary of having them play until Toby gets fixed...especially not off leash! It won't be that long to wait anyway and you could actually make it not an awkward convo by just saying..."I would love them to play, Toby will be fixed in "x months" and it would be great to hang out then...maybe we can exchange numbers?" you could then go on to maybe even breech the subject again of "oh, I am just a member of a Cavalier organization that focuses on the health and future of the breed, and knowing so much about syringomyelia and inherited genetic diseases in the breed, I just need to be responsible that Toby is not around intact females until he is desexed as I would be crushed if I ever contributed to this disease since Toby has not been MRI cleared" NOW, I know that puts it more back on you, which I did on purpose because then it almost talks about the issue from Toby's side (even though it is so HER issue so don't think I am glossing over that!!), but it makes it less threatening and more open if we talk about it from our side vs. thiers you know? Same as a relationship argument, ha ha. It might actually get her thinking since you are serious enough to not even let your dogs play together til Toby is desexed, that this must be a pretty serious thing to you.

That might work. I would really be wary of play time before desexing since her intentions were breeding first off the pitch. But after Toby is desexed, maybe you guys can have some play dates, maybe you will get along, maybe the conversation will be about cavs a lot and you guys can have friendly discussions about all of this (health, breeding etc.). It sounds like she actually does not know a lot vs. knowing and doing it anyways, so maybe some gentle, friendly education is in order. That actually might be your gift of friendship to her, who knows. You can't blame people who don't know, you can just try to educate them :l*v: (though, you can blame people who are educated and just close their ears!!).

Cute little Toby, he seems to already have the first few chapters written of a very adventurous book! :)

Karlin
23rd September 2011, 04:19 PM
Sorry but really disagree with some points here and dog trainers would as well.

Dogs critically need socialisation with ALL TYPES of other dogs, large and small, outgoing and quiet. They can end up with lifelong socialisation problems if the only dogs they ever encounter are shy introverted dogs, and puppy hood is a crucial window (the ONLY easy window!) for them to learn to be sociable. Many puppies need exposure to more outgoing dogs to come out of their shell and learn how to interact socially with other dogs in a normal and safe way (a dog that cannot is a target for lifelong attacks as it can send all the wrong signals). Many people unfortunately misread normal puppy play -- which is by definition often rambunctious and can appear very rough, as can adult play! as 'bullying' or bad behaviour. Stopping interactions and hiding a dog away from such interactions again risks llfelong social problems and risky interactions and an adult that has little confidence and can end up with fear aggression!!! All serious, serious owner/dog issues that can make owning a dog a constant headache rather than a pleasure (I speak as the owner of a poorly socialised rescue, Lily, who makes life with the dogs more difficult and frustrating at times than it should be, not least as she always has to be managed around other dogs and immediately put on lead if another dogs heads our way on walks, etc. Her issues means she is the dog that most often gets left at home and left out of fun interactions -- a less rich life for her :( ).

Please, if people have concerns about interactions, talk to the trainer running the class a pup or adult dog is in. Real bullying is extremely rare with puppies. More outgoing pups need to interact with calmer pups to shape manners. Shy dogs need to interact with outgoing dogs to learn to play, and also crucially to be able to indicate THEMSELVES in a polite way that they have had enough. If play gets really rough, then dogs can have a time out, but they need to be allowed regular normal dog interactions.

It is NORMAL for puppies to growl, nip, tumble, chase, bowl each other over. :D Some dogs are lifelong play growlers and many people screw up their dogs by trying to punish play growling and other normal puppy/dog play behaviour (or lack of training), thinking this shows 'dominance' for example. Puppies also MUST interact with other dogs to learn bite inhibition! Sheltering them away means they do not learn this critical skill as readily, as easily, or at ALL -- and can be a lifelong risk as a biter (of humans as well as dogs).

Puppies badly need a lot of active playful and even, yes, rough interaction to become normally socialised, well adjusted adults -- and politer dogs with their humans too. :) Some pups of course are quieter than others but should never be overly shy -- if a pup is really timid I'd be thinking one of three things: very poor socialisation by the breeder and/or homed too young (especially under 8 weeks but 10-12 weeks is much better); or health issues causing fear of being touched.

Think about it: if a child is kept so sheltered that she never learns to interact with all types of kids, she will never learn how to politely excuse herself, have a debate, choose friends, recognise play vs aggression. Dogs need to lean this and they need the chance to practice those responses *all their lives* by meeting as wide a range of dogs as regularly as possible -- not just shy quiet dogs (imagine how incapable any of us would be if our view of the world was one populated only by shy quiet people! We'd have a hard time interacting normally with people, would misread -- at possible serious risk -- others' intentions, and never know how to politely get away from unwanted attentions. :)


A couple of helpful things to read: is that other dog really a 'bully'? Most likely not: http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/body-language

A critical point:


The Quiet TypeBasically, most dogs have two bona fide reasons to bite: 1. Because they are dogs and that's what dogs do and 2. Because by and large, people are not very nice to them.
When dogs are upset or frightened, they don’t call a lawyer, or write a letter of complaint, they simply growl and bite. Ironically, in the rare instances when a (usually) fearful dog does follow through, he is often accused of unpredictably biting without provocation — without warning and without reason. In reality though, there were most certainly many good reasons for the dog to bite and he most certainly gave numerous warnings, even though the warnings may have been too subtle for most human observers.
Many dogs do, however, bite with little threat or warning, but this has very little to do with aggressiveness. On the contrary, the vast majority of dogs bite because they are fearful, frightened, unsocialized, and/or lack confidence. A bite might be expected if the dog were cringing, or snapping and lunging, but often the dog's standoffish demeanor is the only overt warning. And of course an unsocialized sleeping dog may bite if disturbed or frightened. Other dogs bite due to uncontrolled rambunctiousness. The dog may be in a decidedly happy frame of mind and is only doing what he did as a puppy, because no one taught the puppydog that unsolicited playbiting was unacceptable. Now the adolescent dog's playfulness is out of control and he hurts people. Thus a dog may bite with nary a growl. Indeed, the biting dog may be playfully wagging his tail!
There is an additional, quite insidious reason for a dog to bite without warning. Originally the dog would growl whenever he was upset. Although people heard the growl, they did not listen to what the dog was saying. The dog was upset but no one paid heed. Instead they punished the dog for growling. The dog now had two reasons to be upset, the original reason and the fact his owner is angrily bullying him — and so, the dog growled more. Unfortunately, the level of punishment was increased until it effectively inhibited the dog from growling. The dog no longer growled, but he was still upset, in fact, very upset. Now we have the equivalent of a time bomb without the tick. The dog is doubly upset but no longer shows it, because the owner systematically punished him for trying to communicate his feelings. By all means instruct a growling dog to shush but ALWAYS investigate and attempt to resolve the underlying cause.




Also:
http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/puppy-outside-home
http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/socialization
http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/fearfulness

gamefanz
23rd September 2011, 04:39 PM
Karlin I do get what your saying. I do want him to play. I want him to become friends with other dogs. What I have seen in my dog though is this:
He will go up to every dog, he has no issues with that. He wants to get to know them BUT he does not like to be pounced on. He will roll on his back until they stop and move away. Then he will go in a corner and stay there. He will hide behind humans. Then when he sees a dog that is calm he will go to them again. If they try to pounce or run him down, he rolls on his back again and will lay there until they leave. He NEVER cries or barks or shows teeth. He does not growl at other dogs. He does growl A LOT at home when playing with his toys though.
I don't want my dog to feel that the first sign of a dog who pounces or runs at him, he is to turn on his back and play dead. Yesterday when seeing the Aussie who was out of control barking at him and the female Cavalier, he peed all over the ground. I am unsure why. Whether it was the Aussie who scared him or the female he smelled. I don't know.
How do you get a dog to engage and play with others when the first sign of a very playful dog makes your dog play dead? The trainer that was there was not at all worried that my dog was in the corner or that he was running away from the other dogs who were stepping on him. She was more engaged on the dogs who do play and was excited to see the other dogs playing with each other.
I don't know what the answer is for Toby. I think he is better with 1 on 1 interaction. The Springer Spaniel was great. This dog adapted to each dog that it saw. With Toby, The spaniel allowed him to sniff. With the more playful dogs it played with them. I would love Toby to be this way but he will not engage with more playful dogs.
I posted another video in my post in the videos section. Its of the puppy social. That video was the calmest part of the night. You can see that once the playfulness started, he checked out.
:confused:
Becky

sunshinekisses
23rd September 2011, 04:43 PM
Karlin-I will respectfully disagree...but to each his own. I have ruined too many dogs listening to the trainer. A shy dog does not need to be run over by other dogs to learn to interact. To what purpose does a dog need to learn to play with other dogs? Most dogs are owned by pet people that only want a home companion. If a dog is taught to not react fearful or aggressive toward other dogs, IMO mission accomplished. And this can be done in obedience class where other dogs are present. Dog socialization occurs in the few weeks of early puppy hood with its mother and littermates. I don't think ongoing socialization should be free-play unless owner knows the other dog and knows interaction will only benefit dog.

Kate H
23rd September 2011, 07:13 PM
The B&T I had before Oliver was 4 months old when I had him and not well socialised. So I took him to puppy classes (the first time I'd ever been to them) - trainer advertised in the vets, assured everyone she was competent and had been doing it for years, etc, etc. Rowley was by far the smallest dog there; the floor was slippery and when I was told to let him play off-lead with the other puppies, he literally got booted from one end of the hall to the other by Boxer and German Shepherd puppies. Result - he spent most of the time under my chair. For 5 weeks out of the 8 week course, the trainer simply said 'Oh, he'll get used to it, you just have to persevere.' I made the decision to stop going - and Rowley literally never voluntarily went up to a bigger dog for the rest of his 10 years of life - he didn't run away from them, he just ignored them. Yes, take your trainer's advice if your trainer is competent - unfortunately not all of them are, and if you're new to training it's not always easy to judge whether a trainer is competent or not, you don't want to criticise. And bad training advice can do irreparable damage.


And I do think we have to accept that some dogs simply do not want to play with other dogs. Oliver grew up with 4 Cavaliers and 2 Whippets, in the cottage adjoining his breeder's boarding kennels; he is completely fearless with other dogs of any size (particularly friendly to Great Danes and Greyhounds!), likes to go up and say hello but has never shown any desire to play with them. He doesn't want to play with Aled, either - the only play he enjoys is with me, although I have never taught him to limit play to humans. He just isn't interested. Even my first Cavalier, who was the happiest, most outgoing dog I have ever known, and who shared a garden with a friend's (biggish) dog, never played with him. Should we equate good socialisation with the ability to play with other dogs - or is good socialisation learning to behave sensibly and calmly around other dogs, whether this includes play or not?

Kate, Oliver and Aled

Blueroses
24th September 2011, 09:42 AM
The B&T I had before Oliver was 4 months old when I had him and not well socialised. So I took him to puppy classes (the first time I'd ever been to them) - trainer advertised in the vets, assured everyone she was competent and had been doing it for years, etc, etc. Rowley was by far the smallest dog there; the floor was slippery and when I was told to let him play off-lead with the other puppies, he literally got booted from one end of the hall to the other by Boxer and German Shepherd puppies. Result - he spent most of the time under my chair. For 5 weeks out of the 8 week course, the trainer simply said 'Oh, he'll get used to it, you just have to persevere.' I made the decision to stop going - and Rowley literally never voluntarily went up to a bigger dog for the rest of his 10 years of life - he didn't run away from them, he just ignored them. Yes, take your trainer's advice if your trainer is competent - unfortunately not all of them are, and if you're new to training it's not always easy to judge whether a trainer is competent or not, you don't want to criticise. And bad training advice can do irreparable damage.


And I do think we have to accept that some dogs simply do not want to play with other dogs. Oliver grew up with 4 Cavaliers and 2 Whippets, in the cottage adjoining his breeder's boarding kennels; he is completely fearless with other dogs of any size (particularly friendly to Great Danes and Greyhounds!), likes to go up and say hello but has never shown any desire to play with them. He doesn't want to play with Aled, either - the only play he enjoys is with me, although I have never taught him to limit play to humans. He just isn't interested. Even my first Cavalier, who was the happiest, most outgoing dog I have ever known, and who shared a garden with a friend's (biggish) dog, never played with him. Should we equate good socialisation with the ability to play with other dogs - or is good socialisation learning to behave sensibly and calmly around other dogs, whether this includes play or not?

Kate, Oliver and Aled



Wise words Kate, particularly those highlighted

Zumie05
24th September 2011, 09:10 PM
I also want to chime in to add that one theory out there is dogs need only be concerned with dogs in their "pack", and ignore all other dogs. There are some people who raise their dogs purposefully to not play with other dogs and simply ignore them; not react with fear, aggression, or a big old bounce and a pull to run off and play, just calm and aloof.

Nothing I did with Coco was meant for her to turn out this way, I wanted her to play and be social with other dogs. She will happily go up to any dog and say hello, otherwise they are always ignored.

gamefanz
24th September 2011, 09:35 PM
I want to say Thank you to everyone who participated in my thread. I like being able to get different opinions and advice about things. We signed Toby up for intermediate class today. We will be starting it in about 1 hr. There will be 4 dogs in there with him. A doberman, Aussie, Chihuahua and a mixed breed. I have already given the trainer a heads up on Tobys personality and his habits. This way he can give us tips and advice along the way.
I also plan to meet up with Zumie tomorrow so Coco and Toby can play and try herding for the first time. It should be interesting! I am hoping that Coco can bring Toby out of his shell and maybe play with her. Who knows maybe a different Toby will come out and he will be ready to interact more. I think Coco will be a good match for Toby to start out with.
I have spent yesterday and all night thinking about this. I cannot make Toby be a dog that he is not. He has always been calm even in his litter. He is just a calm dog. I look back on the videos I took while at the breeder and he was wanting to be with people and smell his litter mates UNTIL they bit him and he would come back to them and play. So I am settled with the fact that Toby may not be a dogs dog. I will always encourage him to play but I won't get bent if he chooses not to.
Becky