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Karen and Ruby
6th October 2011, 08:38 PM
Wow, what a long, long day. Left home at 7am, faced with a closure on the M25 at Jnt 5 I wasn't looking forward to the journey and got there in around 2.5 hours. Not late though so that was a miracle!

So on to the little guy, he is beyond asleep- comatosed is the word I would use!

First consultation and Clare did her normal tests, he is very sensitive around his neck (literally just below his skull) didn't like the pressure at all and also at the base of his spine but no sensitivity in between.

Clare was running a low cost scanning day and to be honest I tried not to talk to anyone there, don't know why- I just didn't want to. So she had a busy day and didn't pick him up untill 4.30pm, she hasn't had a chance to have an indepth look at his scan pictures as yet but from first glance not much has changed.

He has a degree of deterioration of the spinal chord around C2 and his ventricles are still the same as before but no obvious syrinx. A cross section at C2 shows something so I will wait and here her report.

We have decided to start him on a non-steroidal for 4 weeks and assess his symptoms alongside it.


All in all it isn't terrible and certainly not as bad as I thought at this point but will wait and see Clares report before relaxing!

Thanks for all your wishes and for making me feel not so alone today!! Its a great comfort knowing you are all here for us at these nerve wrecking times!

Karen and Ruby
6th October 2011, 08:42 PM
Wow, what a long, long day. Left home at 7am, faced with a closure on the M25 at Jnt 5 I wasn't looking forward to the journey and got there in around 2.5 hours. Not late though so that was a miracle!

So on to the little guy, he is beyond asleep- comatosed is the word I would use!

First consultation and Clare did her normal tests, he is very sensitive around his neck (literally just below his skull) didn't like the pressure at all and also at the base of his spine but no sensitivity in between.

Clare was running a low cost scanning day and to be honest I tried not to talk to anyone there, don't know why- I just didn't want to. So she had a busy day and didn't pick him up untill 4.30pm, she hasn't had a chance to have an indepth look at his scan pictures as yet but from first glance not much has changed.

He has a degree of deterioration of the spinal chord around C2 and his ventricles are still the same as before but no obvious syrinx. A cross section at C2 shows something so I will wait and here her report.

We have decided to start him on a non-steroidal for 4 weeks and assess his symptoms alongside it.


All in all it isn't terrible and certainly not as bad as I thought at this point but will wait and see Clares report before relaxing!

Thanks for all your wishes and for making me feel not so alone today!! Its a great comfort knowing you are all here for us at these nerve wrecking times!


His feet are really cold! Is that normal???

Shall I wrap him up to warm him up??

Nicki
6th October 2011, 09:06 PM
Sounds pretty good news about the scan, relieved for you :) HOpefully you will have Clare's report soon and that will give you more comprehensive information.


The anaesthetic itself can cause issues for animals regulating their temperature. [they wouldn't let me have Teddy back after an anaesthetic one time for quite a while, as they couldn't get him warm :(]

Keep him warm and quiet. Move his bed close to a heater. Keep movement and exercise to a minimum - not that he will want to play or go for a run. Make sure water is within reach, so he doesn't have to get up. Make sure he does eat a wee bit, something bland, I always find they feel better after a small meal, so even if you have to hand feed him, or give him special treats, do so.


If you are really worried then 'phone your vet.

Karen and Ruby
6th October 2011, 09:16 PM
He had some chicken and mashed sweet potato when we got home- Ive given him his hot water bottle and he is sleeping soundly on my pillow under my fluffy dressing gown!

Ruby is just as shattered- she normally sleeps close to 20 hours a day so being out and about for 12 hours today has taken it out of her!! Although we did spend much of the day sitting outside Costa and she spent most of that curled up on my lap :rolleyes:

Sandrac
6th October 2011, 10:06 PM
Hi Karen,

Glad to hear that you are back home after your exhausting day, have been thinking about you today.

Sounds like things went well, I'm sure Clare will get the results to you as soon as she can. She must have had a really busy day if it was a low cost scanning day.

Keep Charlie warm and quiet for the rest of today and I'm sure tomorrow he will be back to normal - give him a big hug from us all.
:hug:
I'm due to take Minnie for her follow-up MRI scan, but at the moment keep putting it off as she is doing so well.

Hope you all get a good nights sleep - poor Ruby sounds as if she will need to catch up on her zzzzzzzz's as well.:)

Take care.

Love my Cavaliers
6th October 2011, 10:17 PM
Poor baby Charlie. He's had a rough day. Anesthesia certainly takes a lot out of them. I couldn't pick Riley up right away after her scan either (like Teddy). She had to stay for hours until she was stable enough to go home.

I hope the non-steroidal gives Charlie some relief. What is it?

Hugs and kisses to both Ruby and Charlie. Hope you all get a good night's sleep.

Karen and Ruby
6th October 2011, 10:41 PM
We decided on Metacam, A- he has had it before and it doesn't cause him any upsets and B- I have it in the house anyway for Ruby so it is convenient.


I do think it worth mentioning that I asked Clare whether she thinks giving Charlie cimetidine at an early age has meant that he hasn't developed SM yet.

She said its hard to know either way as he maay not have been destined to get it anyway. He started on Cimetidine at 14 months old and is very nearly 3 now. WOuld he have SM if I hadn't intervened early?? Who knows!

She said unless you do a comprehensive study over many different dogs, involving many different researchers and facilities and got all dogs at the same point of progression then gave half of them a CSF inhibitor and with held the other half and waited, that we would never know- and what owner is willing to risk the chance of getting SM because of a research study??


However, if Charlie was there as part of the low cost scheme she would be grading him as A, he is over the age of 2.5 and at first glance free from SM. If it wasn't for his heart and scruffy looks, oh and the fact that he lost his furry plums a while back, he could be bred from. But he is in pain.

According to Clare, he had a much better scan than many she sees through the scheme from "asymptomatic" (so she's told) dogs. She did say that with a hint of sarcasm.

Of course we should be applauding these breeders for coming to the low cost scanning days but if the ones that are actually makig the effort to scan and have some knowledge of the problem aren't noticing the signs of symptoms then that leaves no hope for the ones that aren't scanning under the pretence of "i've never witnessed it in my lines"!!!

he still will be managed for his symptoms but Clare siad that if he hasn't developed SM at this age that he more than likely won't- if he does then it probably won't reach a width of more than 3-4mm. Compared to the 6-7mm that Ruby had at her scan, that has to be good news.

Of course we had the surgery conversation again but she could tell by my reaction that it would never be an option for me! At the end of the day- whats the point of surgery in a dog thats heart is as bad as his!!
Clare still asks me every time she sees him "how can a 2 year old dog have a heart this bad??!!"


But like Margaret said on an earlier post about her dog who sadly dropped dead suddenly at 5 years with no prior deterioration of the heart, I personally think this will probably be what happens to Charlie- hopefully he'll be doing something he loves like chasing a rabbit or doing an agility course or something!!


But enough of the morbid thoughts!!!

sins
6th October 2011, 10:43 PM
I hope you sleep well tonight!
What a long and stressful day you've had. How is he now? Still groggy or back to his usual self?
Sins.

Karen and Ruby
6th October 2011, 10:48 PM
I hope you sleep well tonight!
What a long and stressful day you've had. How is he now? Still groggy or back to his usual self?
Sins.


Still ery sleepy but did just bark at a dog on the TV so must be feeling a bit better!! He has warmed up a bit aswell now which is good!!!

Love my Cavaliers
6th October 2011, 10:52 PM
I give Metacam to Oliver whenever he needs it for his hips. I just keep it in the house. He has never had any problems with it and it really works well for him for pain relief. I give it to him freely until he doesn't seem to need it anymore. His orthopedic doctor has told me that it's fine to do it that way.

Interesting thought about the CSF inhibitor - but Clare's right. There's no way to do a randomized controlled trial. I wouldn't consent to that with my dog.

Have a good rest tonight.

BrooklynMom
6th October 2011, 11:08 PM
Oh I am just getting to both of your posts!
What a day...for you and Charlie! I have been thinking about you!! So it sounds like so far that this is on the good side of news, so I am happy about that for you both. I will be interested in what Clare's full report will say, and until then will keep my fingers crossed that is remains good news as it stands.

Glad the worst is over...now it is cuddle time :)

Sydneys Mom
7th October 2011, 12:26 AM
Glad the news for Charlie is better than expected. I know you still need the final report from Clare, but at least for now you can breath a sigh of relief that the stress of today is over.

Karlin
7th October 2011, 12:33 AM
Really glad you have had a pretty stable result on the MRI and you must be very relieved. It is a stressful day even when you don;t have the travel rolled into the situation. :eek: It's always such a relief just to be back home. Interesting thoughts on the cimetidine.


However, if Charlie was there as part of the low cost scheme she would be grading him as A, he is over the age of 2.5 and at first glance free from SM. If it wasn't for his heart and scruffy looks, oh and the fact that he lost his furry plums a while back, he could be bred from. But he is in pain.

Actually this wouldn't quite be true :) as I know Clare would be very firm that no dog with pain should ever be bred from, and an A is not an indication that a dog could be bred from (even disregarding heart results etc) -- it is a grading for the presence of syrinxes. Lots of considerations go into suitability for breeding in addition to a basic scan grade. She is quite explicit that a dog may merit an A under the standards agreed in the scheme but any indication of pain means a dog should not be considered for breeding. Some way of incorporating in some assessment of CM causing actual pain, as opposed to CM that is asymptomatic, remains an issue for scans, I think. Though I know the assumption was that no right-minded breeder would ever consider breeding a dog that had any SM/CM related pain simply because it had an A grade in terms of syrinx presence.

Karen and Ruby
7th October 2011, 11:40 AM
Really glad you have had a pretty stable result on the MRI and you must be very relieved. It is a stressful day even when you don;t have the travel rolled into the situation. :eek: It's always such a relief just to be back home. Interesting thoughts on the cimetidine.



Actually this wouldn't quite be true :) as I know Clare would be very firm that no dog with pain should ever be bred from, and an A is not an indication that a dog could be bred from (even disregarding heart results etc) -- it is a grading for the presence of syrinxes. Lots of considerations go into suitability for breeding in addition to a basic scan grade. She is quite explicit that a dog may merit an A under the standards agreed in the scheme but any indication of pain means a dog should not be considered for breeding. Some way of incorporating in some assessment of CM causing actual pain, as opposed to CM that is asymptomatic, remains an issue for scans, I think. Though I know the assumption was that no right-minded breeder would ever consider breeding a dog that had any SM/CM related pain simply because it had an A grade in terms of syrinx presence.


Oh yes, I appreciate that, but as you say- it is the assumption that the breeder makes that choice.

But if some one can guarentee me that no breeder would breed their mildly symptomatic dog after it was graded A if it was their top stud dog or a champion.££££ Some of the breeders that go along to these low cost days are addament that their dogs have no symptoms but the scans produced would have anyone with the slightest experience with this disease and looking at MRI pictures questioning the truth in that statement, i'm sure!

Kate H
7th October 2011, 11:59 AM
In fairness to the breeders who scan their dogs but say they have no symptoms, it is very easy to miss or fail to recognise the many and varied symptoms of SM. I had Oliver mini-scanned at age 6 not because I - or my vets - thought he had symptoms, but because he had a family history of SM and I wanted to check up on it. Yes, now I know we should have been suspicious of a dog who has always squinted in strong light, changes position several times in the night, has never played with other dogs, and finds pacing more comfortable than proper walking. If vets miss these clues, it's not surprising that breeders do as well - and some of them would be very surprised to be told that these things are - or at least could be - symptoms of CM/SM. Every dog is different, and it's easy to dismiss slightly odd behaviour as 'that's just the way he is'. Hopefully, every Cavalier owner will be more vigilant and suspicious as vets become more aware of behaviour that could denote SM.

Kate, Oliver and Aled

Margaret C
7th October 2011, 02:49 PM
In fairness to the breeders who scan their dogs but say they have no symptoms, it is very easy to miss or fail to recognise the many and varied symptoms of SM. I had Oliver mini-scanned at age 6 not because I - or my vets - thought he had symptoms, but because he had a family history of SM and I wanted to check up on it. Yes, now I know we should have been suspicious of a dog who has always squinted in strong light, changes position several times in the night, has never played with other dogs, and finds pacing more comfortable than proper walking. If vets miss these clues, it's not surprising that breeders do as well - and some of them would be very surprised to be told that these things are - or at least could be - symptoms of CM/SM. Every dog is different, and it's easy to dismiss slightly odd behaviour as 'that's just the way he is'. Hopefully, every Cavalier owner will be more vigilant and suspicious as vets become more aware of behaviour that could denote SM.
Kate, Oliver and Aled

It was not until l I started comparing the behaviour of my cavaliers with that of the later arrivals, my Japanese Chins, that I realised that what I had been seeing for years as a cavalier owner was not just ordinary dog behaviour. The Fluffies do not body rub around the sofa & chairs, face rub and scratch when excited, or drop suddenly into a position with neck extended and head flat on the floor between the front paws.

Nor did they suffer from bouts of 'neck strain', something that appeared fairly common in cavaliers. I always thought in our house it was due to the cavalier habit of taking flying leaps off & on the furniture.

I can remember over twenty five years ago comparing cavalier 'itchy spots' with another breeder. Both our dogs would air scratch if touched on a particular part of the body. If I remember rightly my tricolour was sensitive on a certain spot on the shoulder.
My boy lived to a good age and died of cancer, but it is possible that cavaliers have had an undiagnosed SM problem, not so widespread or severe as it is now, for decades.

anniemac
7th October 2011, 04:05 PM
Karen,

I'm so glad that Charlie is home and recovering well. I have been thinking about you. As people said before, Charlie is the same no matter what and that the important thing is that his symptoms are being managed.

anniemac
7th October 2011, 04:24 PM
Oh yes, I appreciate that, but as you say- it is the assumption that the breeder makes that choice.

But if some one can guarentee me that no breeder would breed their mildly symptomatic dog after it was graded A if it was their top stud dog or a champion.££££ Some of the breeders that go along to these low cost days are addament that their dogs have no symptoms but the scans produced would have anyone with the slightest experience with this disease and looking at MRI pictures questioning the truth in that statement, i'm sure!


I think we have to trust the researchers and breeders working with them to make the best decisions and I TRULY believe those breeders going to low cost scan days, working with Dr. Rusbridge and other neurologists to help their breeding program, do have the best interest and would never breed a symptomatic cavalier of anything.

I posted on another thread yesterday that I read that Rusbridge et. al said average lapse time between first symptoms and diagnosis is 1.6 years. Many of these symptoms are hard to pick up. Sins posted that she had Daisy scanned on another thread http://www.cavaliertalk.com/forums/showthread.php?39751-Syringomyelia/page5

Sins said:

"Syringomyelia is a very complex condition.
It really is very difficult to interpret what exactly "symptomatic" means.
For many symptomatic cavaliers,it's very obvious that they bunny hop and air scratch when walking and pause every few steps to scratch.
However,there are others who have never displayed these symptoms and yet are very badly affected.
Daisy was asymptomatic when I had her scanned in 2009.Yes,she scratched her ear and wasn't the best at jumping onto the sofa,but I just figured that she had no traction on the wooden floors and that she perhaps had an ear infection(which she in fact did).
I showed her pedigree to a few breeders who told me that I'd have no problem with her.There were no current top UK sires in there,just very old Irish and UK lines,many of the dogs being behind todays generation of cavaliers.
So I scanned her for research and to prove to myself that SM wasn't such a major problem as was being suggested.She was 2.8 years at the time of scanning and technically, had she been sold elsewhere she would have been sold as a breeding bitch and would have had maybe two litters by then.She has two syrinxs between C2 and C4.
She didn't become symptomatic really until close to 3.5 years,by which time she was intermittently lame and becoming very quiet and withdrawn.She has had two episodes where from nowhere,she threw herself down on the floor and rolled around screaming.It's not something I'll ever forget.
Thankfully medication has eliminated those episodes and she's no longer lame.But she shuffles around like a geriatric cavalier instead of a normal almost 5 year old.
So what I'm saying is that just by looking at a young cavalier and trying to guess if she or he is affected is pointless.What may look fine at age 2 from the outside,may be a ticking time bomb waiting to happen,which is why many Uk breeders now screen their cavaliers.
Mri scanning is not perfect,but it's a useful tool for responsible breeders who know how to use it to the best effect."

That is why scanning is important and breeders, puppy buyers, etc. should see why MRI and the SM protocol is so important. To pick up on things that may not be visible. If breeders are paying money, driving long distances, etc. and having their breeding stock scanned, we HAVE to SUPPORT that because that's what we have been asking or wanting them to do.

Margaret C
7th October 2011, 06:12 PM
That is why scanning is important and breeders, puppy buyers, etc. should see why MRI and the SM protocol is so important. To pick up on things that may not be visible. If breeders are paying money, driving long distances, etc. and having their breeding stock scanned, we HAVE to SUPPORT that because that's what we have been asking or wanting them to do.

Yes responsible breeders do deserve to be supported in every way possible, but many years experience has taught me that there are some high profile breeders that make claims about their breeding programmes that just do not stand up to scrutiny.

That is why puppy buyers should always see the health certificates and check the ages that the parent dogs were scanned and mated.

Honest breeders and well informed buyers are what this breed needs to survive.

Karlin
7th October 2011, 06:24 PM
Absolutely agree with basic points, Anne but Margaret offers the correct context: NO ONE should rely on the fact that a breeder is scanning or even sending in the consequent information to researchers as a badge of good health focused breeding practice.

Lots and lots of breeders in the UK and increasing numbers in the US, Holland, Australia, Finland etc now go to low cost scanning clinics. Far fewer make responsible breeding decisions on that basis. And FAR too many breeders are scanning UNDERAGE dogs, getting a good result and then using that as the basis for their 'clear' claims for a dog. These are people who do not then rescan at breeding age so their so-called 'grades' and 'clears' are *meaningless*.

The younger a breeder scans a dog, the more likely it will be clear for SM. Scans should be done AT breeding age if being used as the basis for actual breeding decisions-- eg 2.5 -- NOT at 1 or 1.5 or 2. The most valuable scans are on older dogs -- 5+ -- they can tell breeders whether they have dogs that remain clear or have slow, late onset SM with no clinical symptoms -- the best in terms of lowering risk of painful SM.

Buyers need to be able to talk to breeders directly, and actually see the certs -- ideally the ORIGINALS while visiting the breeder, given that we have had an example already here of one puppy buyer going to a breeder who claimed to scan and cardiac test and could clearly see the breeder had used a cert for some other dog, whited-out the name of the scanned/tested dog, and written in a new dog's name.

It is fantastic to find a truly health focused breeder that actually uses responsibly the information they get from scanning their dogs at *appropriate ages*. And especially those who scan or rescan older dogs to get the most meaningful and useful information about their dogs and their lines. :)

anniemac
7th October 2011, 07:00 PM
Absolutely agree with basic points, Anne but Margaret offers the correct context: NO ONE should rely on the fact that a breeder is scanning or even sending in the consequent information to researchers as a badge of good health focused breeding practice.

Lots and lots of breeders in the UK and increasing numbers in the US, Holland, Australia, Finland etc now go to low cost scanning clinics. Far fewer make responsible breeding decisions on that basis. And FAR too many breeders are scanning UNDERAGE dogs, getting a good result and then using that as the basis for their 'clear' claims for a dog. These are people who do not then rescan at breeding age so their so-called 'grades' and 'clears' are *meaningless*.


Buyers need to be able to talk to breeders directly, and actually see the certs -- ideally the ORIGINALS while visiting the breeder, given that we have had an example already here of one puppy buyer going to a breeder who claimed to scan and cardiac test and could clearly see the breeder had used a cert for some other dog, whited-out the name of the scanned/tested dog, and written in a new dog's name.

It is fantastic to find a truly health focused breeder that actually uses responsibly the information they get from scanning their dogs at *appropriate ages*. And especially those who scan or rescan older dogs to get the most meaningful and useful information about their dogs and their lines. :)

I agree and thought that was a given to ask for the certificates and age etc. I think it's important, personally, to get involved and research as much as possible. Someone has said this to me and I say it all the time, "It's not the breeder, but the breeding". You have to look at all of that.

I have said before that even if Rod Russell was a breeder, I would not just assume that based on what all he goes on about health (sorry Rod), I would still do dilligence and want to see certificates, parents, meet him etc.

The point of symptomatic CM cavaliers have been brought up that based on Charlie's scan alone he could be considered an "A". This topic has been talked about before and I don't want to go into all that, but at some point we have to trust the researchers, breeders, etc. amd go further and meet the parents etc.

So yes I agree with Margaret that you need to see the certificate but I would go further like you said Karlin and meet the breeder and parents face to face.

ByFloSin
7th October 2011, 08:10 PM
Firstly let me say how glad I am to know that Ruby hasn't got any worse. I wish her a long and pain free life.

I don't wish to offend anyone here, but I do wish the practice of breeder bashing would stop. Several people do it, some never having bred a dog themselves and of course none of them are vets.

I used to be a hobby breeder and was always proud of each and every one of my pups, I loved and still love all my dogs too. I don't understand why I should be demonised because I enjoy show competition with some of my dogs either. I can't speak for all breeders or exhibitors but over the years I have got to know many quite well, including visiting their homes and meeting all their dogs.

In all this time I can honestly say that I have only come across one or two at the most breeder/show people who have not loved and cared for their dogs as carefully and passionately as I still do. A few of the people I know have been truly surprised and shocked when told that their dogs have SM. I am one of them. The shock at finding Rebel was affected was profound. As my friends would do, I told everyone concerned with Rebel's breeding what the scan results were so that they could alter their breeding programmes or monitor related dogs as required. They were all grateful for the information.

It seems to me that breeder and exhibitor bashing gets worse and worse by the day. Even vets seem to be affected - now Dr Rusbridge seems to have latched on to it. I think I am speaking for many here. I am one of those who has neither met nor consulted Dr Rusbridge at any time. Therefore I am not in a position to judge her methods or procedures, so there is no way I would comment on either. Would it not be possible for the lady to give me and the rest of us the benefit of her doubt when we say that our dogs have been asymptomatic and are astonished at the diagnosis. I say me and not just us, because these people are my friends, hurt them and I feel their pain too.

It has been said many times before, but if the breed is in as much trouble as some believe, then shouldn't we all be working together to try to put things right?

Sabby
7th October 2011, 08:43 PM
Firstly let me say how glad I am to know that Ruby hasn't got any worse. I wish her a long and pain free life.

I don't wish to offend anyone here, but I do wish the practice of breeder bashing would stop. Several people do it, some never having bred a dog themselves and of course none of them are vets.

I used to be a hobby breeder and was always proud of each and every one of my pups, I loved and still love all my dogs too. I don't understand why I should be demonised because I enjoy show competition with some of my dogs either. I can't speak for all breeders or exhibitors but over the years I have got to know many quite well, including visiting their homes and meeting all their dogs.

In all this time I can honestly say that I have only come across one or two at the most breeder/show people who have not loved and cared for their dogs as carefully and passionately as I still do. A few of the people I know have been truly surprised and shocked when told that their dogs have SM. I am one of them. The shock at finding Rebel was affected was profound. As my friends would do, I told everyone concerned with Rebel's breeding what the scan results were so that they could alter their breeding programmes or monitor related dogs as required. They were all grateful for the information.

It seems to me that breeder and exhibitor bashing gets worse and worse by the day. Even vets seem to be affected - now Ms Rusbridge seems to have latched on to it. I think I am speaking for many here. I am one of those who has neither met nor consulted Ms Rusbridge at any time. Therefore I am not in a position to judge her methods or procedures, so there is no way I would comment on either. Would it not be possible for the lady to give me and the rest of us the benefit of the doubt when we say that our dogs have been asymptomatic and are astonished at the diagnosis. I say me and not just us, because these people are my friends, hurt them and I feel their pain too.

It has been said many times before, but if the breed is in as much trouble as some believe, then shouldn't we all be working together to try to put things right?


Please correct me if I am interpreting this wrong . You are saying.

BUT IF THR BREED IS IN AS MUCH TROUBLE AS SOME BELIEVE.
Don't you believe that the Cavalier breed is in that much trouble?

Margaret C
7th October 2011, 09:49 PM
I am one of those who has neither met nor consulted Ms Rusbridge at any time.

Surely it would be courteous to give her the correct title of Dr Rusbridge?

anniemac
7th October 2011, 10:22 PM
Please correct me if I am interpreting this wrong . You are saying.

BUT IF THR BREED IS IN AS MUCH TROUBLE AS SOME BELIEVE.
Don't you believe that the Cavalier breed is in that much trouble?

We know that *SOME* people have no hope and want to give up on the breed. I have heard people say that. I am not one of those and do want to put my faith in the breeders working with researchers (DR. Rusbridge and others) and with puppy buyers and pet owners supporting them. I have been said I live in a dream world but without us supporting these breeders (ones working to help the breed) who else will we turn to? Might as well give up.

anniemac
7th October 2011, 10:54 PM
Nicely said Flo and I'm sorry I answered a question. I just want to say no matter what one believes or thinks, I think we all agree that this is not a condition we want others to go through.

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Margaret C
8th October 2011, 12:41 AM
We know that *SOME* people have no hope and want to give up on the breed. I have heard people say that. I am not one of those and do want to put my faith in the breeders working with researchers (DR. Rusbridge and others) and with puppy buyers and pet owners supporting them. I have been said I live in a dream world but without us supporting these breeders (ones working to help the breed) who else will we turn to? Might as well give up.

I know *Some* people that believe Cavaliers should not be bred any more, they quite truthfully say that it is the dogs that suffer the actual pain.

I greatly respect these people and I cannot argue with what they say. We may succeed in breeding away from CMSM, but a lot more cavaliers will be born to suffer while we try. We may not succeed and the suffering may increase. I really struggle with the ethics of this.

I have not been able to bring myself to give up on the breed , in fact I have a bitch in whelp at the moment, but even now I am not sure that this is the right thing to be doing.

Let me be quite clear about this, we may 'love the breed' but the truth is we keep producing these little dogs for our own gratification, because they fulfill a need in us, we do not breed them for their own sake.

anniemac
8th October 2011, 12:51 AM
I know *Some* people that believe Cavaliers should not be bred any more, they quite truthfully say that it is the dogs that suffer the actual pain.

I greatly respect these people and I cannot argue with what they say. We may succeed in breeding away from CMSM, but a lot more cavaliers will be born to suffer while we try. We may not succeed and the suffering may increase. I really struggle with the ethics of this.

I have not been able to bring myself to give up on the breed , in fact I have a bitch in whelp at the moment, but even now I am not sure that this is the right thing to be doing.

Let me be quite clear about this, we may 'love the breed' but the truth is we keep producing these little dogs for our own gratification, because they fulfill a need in us, we do not breed them for their own sake.

I was not pointing out anyone in particular. I think no matter what the future holds with the cavalier, cm/sm will continue on. That is why we still need breeders or even pet owners whoever to work with researchers to hopefully develop a DNA test or understand more and not just for the sake of this breed.

If people in the future who want to go to an outcross path, I still think that a DNA test will be valuable. I honestly just want to have people supporting the researchers and many of this research does come from in the past mris and dna from cavaliers. Now they want other breeds but we have to continue to help which I know you do personally with the cavalier collection scheme.

That's all I'm saying

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anniemac
8th October 2011, 12:52 AM
Let me add and we all do and have done by supporting ruperts fund.

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Tania
8th October 2011, 11:12 PM
It is heart breaking continually encountering people who have terrible tales of what has or is happening to their precious companion/soul mate. The Cavaliers are such a special beautiful sweet dog, every time you hear of another little soul suffering this excruciating unimaginable pain and the unsuspecting owner at a loss of what to do seeing their cherished companion suffer, makes my heart sink. Some owners do not recognise the symptoms their dog is suffering or cannot afford medication, so these poor dogs are living in hell!
I feel passionately that we all have to work together and support the researchers and hope the breeders will try and do what is right. If they donít, the breed is doomed if it isnít already!

Cavalier Matters has taken stands at various events fundraising and providing support to pet owners. Most of the visitors to the stands have or had serious health issues with their Cavaliers. It is quite rare to hear of a Cavalier reaching old age without a serious health problem.
If people believe this breed problem is not that bad, they need to get out into the real world and see what is going on.

Karen and Ruby
12th October 2011, 08:54 PM
Hi all,

Got our report from Clare today,

After she has time to look at his images more closely,

shows that the degree of Ventriculomegaly (dialated ventricles) is still the same, the picture still looks like a carved out halloween pumpkin.

The only progression is a small central canal dialation with associated spinal chord oedema at the level of C2/C3.

She goes on to say it is small and will likely only develop in to a small syrinx of up to 4mm and that we have concluded the majority of Charlie's clinical signs are associated with the Chiari.

He has been on Metacam now since Friday and already seeing a small improvement- he had a day or so of loose stools and since Monday has been back to normal and he scratches far less when Excited.
He would sit and scratch for up to a minute or two as soon as I got the leads out for a walk and at any time, excitement would cause massive amounts of scratching.
So, so far so good and his eyes are also weeping far less!!

So i'm pleased with his progress and fingers crossed he is alot more comfortable right now than he was this time last week!

Tania
12th October 2011, 09:36 PM
You must be quite relieved. Hugs to Charlies and Ruby :hug:

daffymum
14th October 2011, 12:19 AM
Glad things went fairly well.I actually met you at Stone lion. my dog Daffy was in also for a scan. You met my other dog Paris, the black and tan who hasnt got sm. Daffy's report was good,after a long story. his syrinx has almost collapsed in the words of Clare .He scratches still but its because his dorsal horn has been damaged.We hope in time the scratching will reduce, but for now he is feeling a lot better.

Karen and Ruby
14th October 2011, 12:30 AM
Glad things went fairly well.I actually met you at Stone lion. my dog Daffy was in also for a scan. You met my other dog Paris, the black and tan who hasnt got sm. Daffy's report was good,after a long story. his syrinx has almost collapsed in the words of Clare .He scratches still but its because his dorsal horn has been damaged.We hope in time the scratching will reduce, but for now he is feeling a lot better.

Oh hi yes, Paris is a very hansome, all be it noisy boy :rolleyes:

I'm glad you had good news!

Margaret C
14th October 2011, 01:09 AM
Glad things went fairly well.I actually met you at Stone lion. my dog Daffy was in also for a scan. You met my other dog Paris, the black and tan who hasnt got sm. Daffy's report was good,after a long story. his syrinx has almost collapsed in the words of Clare .He scratches still but its because his dorsal horn has been damaged.We hope in time the scratching will reduce, but for now he is feeling a lot better.

That is wonderful news. I am so pleased for you.