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View Full Version : Is buying from a puppy farm always bad?



robbieswan
12th October 2011, 06:32 AM
Are there any good puppy farms? or is it a case of steer clear of all of them?

murphy's mum
12th October 2011, 06:27 PM
I would have thought the answer to that would have been painfully obvious.

People who mass breed in that manner are only interested in the money they can potentially make from their "stock", they show little or no regard for the animals wellbeing, as long as they continue to churn out puppies. Have you never seen reports on puppy farming? The dark and squalid conditions dogs are kept in, standing in a dark cramped cage, in their own fleas and filth? Have you never visited the Many Tears website? The many, many pictures of ex breeding dogs standing terrified at being outdoors, with their nipples hanging that long they nearly touch the ground! They have never been outside, and have just been puppy making machines in their owners eyes.

I have a rescue dog myself, and many others on here do too, it's heartbreaking to see how fearful they are of everyday things that any socialized and well cared for dog wouldn't blink twice at. Misty ears were stinking when she came to us, you could smell her across the room. They were badly infected, she needed her teeth cleaned, and four removed, she had rolled eyelids on both side, one eye had an ulcer on it it had rubbed that long. Her nipples were ingrained with dirt, even after frequent bathing, and they were so long. Not to mention how nervous she was. Even to this day she is terrified if she see's my FIL in his overalls, and any raised voice still sends her trotting off to bed.

I sound mad, and I can assure your I am, the subject of puppy farming gets my blood boiling in two seconds flat. I'll be honest, I find your question very insulting to the many people who work so hard to shut puppy farms down, or the ones who dedicate their lives to helping the poor miserable creatures who come from these places. Not to mention the owners who have had puppies die in their arms after only a few short weeks.

I'll stop myself there, but believe me when I say I could say much, much more.

ourempire
12th October 2011, 06:40 PM
murphy's mum: I would have thought the answer to that would have been painfully obvious.
I couldn't agree more. At best the question is thoughtless.
Who in their right mind will ever buy from a breeder, who doesn't socialize the dogs, but only does it for the money? Dog's that are kept under horrifying circumstances? I know, cavaliers are cute, and then you "save" them, but the only thing you do is encourage the irresponsible breeder to keep on going.
I deeply respect all those people in here, who raise money and awareness for rescue dogs. I think we all wish that it wasn't necessary, but as long as people buy from puppy farms, it is, sadly.

waldor
12th October 2011, 07:04 PM
It is probably best to steer clear of them. Over here, the breeding dogs are in small crates, often stacked on top of each other. Some (most?) of these dogs' feet have never touched the earth or grass, they are filthy, unwell, etc. Many, if not most or all of the breeding dogs have mental health problems due to their treatment. This is what I have seen on our local television news and newspapers, when a puppy mill is discovered and shut down by the authorities.

To buy from these "breeders" only encourages them to stay in business and continue treating their dogs this way. They will not change, unless it is not profitable. If not one person purchased from a puppy mill, they would find something else to do, to earn a living.

MurphysMummy
12th October 2011, 07:20 PM
An obvious and definite stay clear. My boy was a stud dog from a puppy farm, and he has MVD and dry eye..so the puppies my boy helped produce will most probably carry/develop these diseases? puppy farms are absolutely disgraceful.

Karen and Ruby
12th October 2011, 07:39 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rpe62iVGzKg&NR=1

This little lady was posted about a while back- I hope little Rosie is doing much better but I can say that Rosie is shown here is better condition than many i've seen !

Margaret C
12th October 2011, 07:58 PM
A really complex question that will raise people's hackles, especially for those that have tried to mend the shattered lives of former puppy farm breeding dogs, but it deserves a considered answer.

I'm not trying to upset anyone but I do think the ethics of these things are not as straightforward as we would like to think.

Sometimes it does seem that current beliefs about puppy farms and rescue are considered sacrosanct and nobody should question them.

In my opinion the answer is yes, buying from a puppy farm ( or pet shop ) is bad, even when the intention is to rescue a poor suffering puppy, because you encourage the bad breeding to continue.

But could the same could be said of the rescue schemes that take middle age breeding bitches from these bad breeders when they know this will enable them to restock with younger dogs?

Another problems is that of definition. How do you define a Puppy Farm? We all think we know what we mean, but where does a poor or irresponsible breeder end and where does a puppy farmer begin?

We all think we know what we are talking about, but for instance there are large scale commercial breeding establishments in the USA that keep their dogs in clean conditions and feed them regularly.......... Are they puppy farms?

What about the breeder/exhibitor that keeps a large amount of dogs shut up in sheds in their garden, or crated all day in their kitchen, do not do any health testing and the only exercise their dogs get is when they go to a show...........Are they puppy farmers?

An article written by Ryan O'Meara in February 2010 states:-

"According to the Bateson report, the definition of a’dog farm’ / puppy farm is any breeder who produces four or more litters per year."

http://www.dogmagazine.net/archives/4982/at-last-puppy-farmers-are-unmasked-thanks-to-the-bateson-report/

Tania
12th October 2011, 08:34 PM
But could the same could be said of the rescue schemes that take middle age breeding bitches from these bad breeders when they know this will enable them to restock with younger dogs?


I thought Puppy Farmers in Wales and Ireland would dispose of their bitches no matter what. If they were not taken in by one of these schemes, they would be shot or worse! These unscrupulous people don't care whether these dogs are taken into care or destroyed. I might be wrong but that is how I understood the situation.

Robbie please visit this website, http://www.dogs-r-us.org/ these people constantly campaign, investigate and lobby and have provided a lot of support to people who end up with sick puppy farmed dog.

There is also a section on my website "Dotty's Diaries" www.cavaliermatters.org

Brian M
12th October 2011, 09:19 PM
Hi Rob

ON many things as we all need help but I think even asking about buying from a pp is not
a question worthy of you or CT .

Reptigirl
12th October 2011, 09:23 PM
Having 3 Cavaliers from a true puppy farm this is a sensitive subject for me. IMO there is NO good puppy farm. Puppy farms are simply there to mass produce puppies. They have little concern for there breeding dogs as long as they keep cranking out puppies (usually ever heat cycle). They have NO concern over the welfare of the puppies once they have made there money on them.

Now backyard breeders (home breeders) with just a small handful of breeding dogs may be a different story.... for SOME breeds with few health risks... but with a Cavalier I would even avoid them. Here most back yard breeders don't do any health testing. They may own only a few dogs and raise them inside as family. Overall these breeders have little knowledge or concern for health issues. This is just from my experience.

I am very bitter about puppy farms.... This cute little puppy :
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w220/Skyz84/DSCI2195.jpg
grew up to be a beautiful well loved Cavalier:
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w220/Skyz84/DSCN4602-1.jpg

but he was out of a full scale puppy mill. (I did not know it when I purchased him)

I think one of my old posts from last year will tell enough to say how I feel about puppy farms :mad: Here are his parents...
These were BREEDING dogs were STRAIGHT out of the puppy farm. The lady TRIED to sell the male several times for $500!!! She was "PROUD" of these dogs! She talked them up highly. On top of that the male was used for stud on DOZENS of litters in just a few short months. He is severely affected with SM and I would imagination many of his puppies are also affected like my Flash is.
http://www.cavaliertalk.com/forums/showthread.php?36505-Well-the-rescues-are-here....

robbieswan
12th October 2011, 09:57 PM
Thanks for all of your replies. My question stems from the fact that Wales is a pretty easy place to get a bad reputation in anything. If these puppy farms are that bad, then why are they allowed to exist?

Puppy farms must have some sort of reputation for people to know about them. I know you here nightmare stories, and I must make it clear that I did buy Tess from a very reputable breeder, but I paid top dollar for her. My previous Cav ( Tanya ) was bought from a pet store in London, and most certainly came from a puppy farm. She lived till 13.

So, my question is that no-one mass breeds the cavalier breed successfully?...Why is this so when it is done with so many other breeds?

I am not inciting argument..I am curious.

Reptigirl
12th October 2011, 10:46 PM
Well as far as "laws" go here.... (In the USA) they are relatively useless. The mill I got the 3 cavaliers from had over 100 dogs. I reported her to EVERYONE I could think of. Her local law enforcement, animal crudity, human societies & I even contacted "Animal Cops". NO one would do anything! Her local law enforcement went and "checked her out". The sheriff knew EXACTLY who I was calling about when I called. Said he gets complaints DAILY but there is NOTHING he could do. He "sent an officer" to check things out and reported back that all dogs had adequate food, water & shelter. I had several other people call all with the same complaints. I forwarded the photos to near by human societies. NOTHING was done. The human society closet to her told me flat out they were not about to handle such a large case. If she in fact had more then a dozen dogs there shelter was not equipt to handle it. I called places in all the nearby cities. Some nearly 100 miles away. Nothing was done. She is STILL selling puppies! Dozens of puppies every few weeks. In desperation I contacted "Animal Cops" in a near by city. They told me she was "out of there jurisdiction." I drove by her place. She lived out in the middle of no where on a gated & locked property with multiple buildings. I saw no dogs running free... Actually I didn't see a single dog. Just lots of old wooden shacks. I can only assume :(

There is a new law here that is going into effect next year that will require any breeder with more then X amount of dogs (I *think* it's 10) will be required to be inspected yearly and licensed. There dogs will be required to have adequate shelter, food & water. They will require the dogs have enough space to sit, stand, turn around AND lay down. They will also require dogs are seen once a year by a LICENSED vet. Also "breeders" will no longer be able to preform there own surgical procedures at home (Ex, tail docking, ear cropping)... This is a law that is NOT EVEN IN EFFECT YET!

One last thing.. I have spent years selling pet supplies at different events around town. Some of these "expos" where nothing but brokers, millers & backyard breeders selling there puppies. I quiet going even though it ment a lose of income. It is saddening. After my experience with the 3 Cavaliers I could not stand to see Cavalier puppies. Right before I quite going there were several breeders starting to sell Cavalier puppies. In just my city alone there are 3+ shows a month where these people sell there puppies. At one show alone 100-200 puppies can be sold. This happens EVERY month in JUST my city... What about the other 20,000+ cities in the USA?

And Cavaliers are not the only breeds. I have heard SO many horror stories of sick puppies. Most dog breeds have some sort of problems. Cavaliers just seem to be more extreme. I'm sure you have seen "Pedigree dogs exposed". That doesn't touch the surface on all the health issues dogs can have. Plus puppy mill dogs have so many other problems. A big problem here is contagious diseases such as parvo.

Margaret C
12th October 2011, 11:12 PM
I thought Puppy Farmers in Wales and Ireland would dispose of their bitches no matter what. If they were not taken in by one of these schemes, they would be shot or worse! These unscrupulous people don't care whether these dogs are taken into care or destroyed. I might be wrong but that is how I understood the situation.

Sorry Tania, I am in a philosophical mood, and it always leads me to ask uncomfortable questions that have no easy answers.

You are right, it is more than likely that ageing brood bitches would be disposed of in an inhumane manner which is why I called it an ethical dilemma, but what do you imagine happens to unsold puppies that have grown beyond the 'cute' stage?

These puppy farmers will only give these poor little bitches up to rescue because it suits them.
Whether this is because it allows them to replace their breeding stock with younger bitches more regularly, without concerns about disposing of little bodies and fending off accusation of mass murder no one can say, but they will not be doing it for the sake of the dogs.

There will be some perceived advantage in it for them, so that is why I posed the question.....Does taking these poor little ex-breeding dogs off their hands, with no questions asked allow the bad breeding to continue?

I have seen Dotty lying like a baby in Graham's arms & rejoiced that this poor little abused cavalier is now such a happy little dog, and I feel the same for any little dog that has escaped and is now living in a loving home. If any dogs deserve everything good for the rest of their lives then they do.
But the question still remains .........If it is wrong to buy a puppy from a puppy farmer should we not question if it is right for rescue to take their unwanted breeding adults off their hands?

Karen and Ruby
12th October 2011, 11:28 PM
Hello again

In this country the establishments are licesnced by the government. Under the Breeding and Sales of Dogs (welfare) Act 1999

When a premisis applies for a licence they are to be inspected by a veterinary surgeon or prectitioner and by an officer of the local authority.

Each local authority is responsible for issuing the license. and also responsible for visiting at suitable intervals,

The conditions for licesnce are pretty basic and i'm pretty sure that mos puppy farms are breaching the conditions of the licence with the following points:

-that bitches are not mated if they are less than a year old
-that bitches do not give birth to more than 6 litters of puppies each
-that vitches do not give birth to puppies before the end of the period of 12 months beginning with the day on which they last gave birth
-that accurate records in a form prescribed by regulations aew kept at the premisis and made available for inspection there by any inspector of the local authority, or veterinary surgeon/practitioner,


Since the Animal Welfare Act of 2006 it is against the law to cause unesersary suffering to any animal and I'm pretty sure that most high production puppy mills/farms are in breach of this law too- so why aren't these places being shut down????

Margaret C
12th October 2011, 11:33 PM
Thanks for all of your replies. My question stems from the fact that Wales is a pretty easy place to get a bad reputation in anything. If these puppy farms are that bad, then why are they allowed to exist?
.


The Government actually encouraged Welsh farmers to diversify into dog breeding. Puppy farming provides people with an income and the more short cuts they make on health & welfare issues the more profit they make.

All attempts to regulate these farms are opposed by vested interests, which I'm afraid often includes the Kennel Club and their registered breeders, who say they want 'puppy farmers' stopped but object to any rules that would limit the number of dogs they can keep themselves.



So, my question is that no-one mass breeds the cavalier breed successfully?...Why is this so when it is done with so many other breeds?

I am not inciting argument..I am curious.

Depends how you define 'breeds successfully'. Puppy farmers churn out Cavaliers and many other breeds and manage to sell the appealing puppies, but I think there would be many owners paying large vet bills that would question whether they had done so successfully

Mindysmom
13th October 2011, 12:10 AM
But the question still remains .........If it is wrong to buy a puppy from a puppy farmer should we not question if it is right for rescue to take their unwanted breeding adults off their hands?


I ask myself that question quite a lot. It is an ethical dilema. Also where I live some religious groups truly believe that dogs are no different than any other animal and it is their right to "farm" them. I obviously don't agree BUT if there was no market for farmed dogs puppy farms wouldn't exist would they?

LJW
13th October 2011, 07:44 AM
There is lots of info and an epetition against puppy farming on the kennel club website www.thekennelclub.org.uk.

Nana26
13th October 2011, 02:35 PM
All attempts to regulate these farms are opposed by vested interests, which I'm afraid often includes the Kennel Club and their registered breeders, who say they want 'puppy farmers' stopped but object to any rules that would limit the number of dogs they can keep themselves.

This confuses me...what makes registered breeders who have many many many dogs any different from puppy farmers. I visited one of these "top breeders" in the USA. Yes the dogs were in a nice building with food & water but they were not loved pets, they were a business. This wasn't a woman who loved her dogs, this was a woman who loved her money!

I would prefer to deal with a small breeder who loves these dogs and cares about them more than the money!

Davecav
13th October 2011, 05:28 PM
This confuses me...what makes registered breeders who have many many many dogs any different from puppy farmers. I visited one of these "top breeders" in the USA. Yes the dogs were in a nice building with food & water but they were not loved pets, they were a business. This wasn't a woman who loved her dogs, this was a woman who loved her money!

I would prefer to deal with a small breeder who loves these dogs and cares about them more than the money!

I think you've kinda hit the nail on the head there. Anyone who loves the money rather than the dogs is on their way at least to being a commenrcial breeder. Cavaliers love companionship, so I wouldn't think kennel life would suit the particularly, but looking at it objectively if they are clean, warm and have enough staff to care well for them and exercise them, then it's hard to object; especially if the kennels did health testing :rolleyes:

Where I start to have questions is, if these kennels churn out lots of puppies, then they have to have outlests - pet stores, or dealers they sell on to, and I think this is Wrong Wrong Wrong!!!! because I don't believe the middle men will care anything for the welfare of the pups, and they could get diseased, stressed etc etc! in the days/weeks before they find a loving home!!

Coming to the real Puppy Farmers (of Wales/Ireland etc) where the pups are kept in the most inhumane filthy conditions etc etc etc etc etc:mad::mad: there is no place on this planet for these establishments they are the pits!!!

Again the only reason they survivie is that they have agents/dealers that they ship the pups off to by the carload in some cases, especially when they are literally shipped off to the USA, or Europe, propalbly many not surviving the trip, they are too weak poorly fed, and weedy.

So no there's no excuse to buy from somewhere like this. It's a shame but Wales does have a pretty bad reputation on this score.

Karlin
14th October 2011, 05:00 AM
Phew, lots of issues here!

I have said for years now that I cannot understand how so many breeders within clubs -- including very respected names -- will breed dogs that spend most of their lives in kennels, when they would have a snit about even considering homing a*puppy* of their breeding to anyone who said they would crate the dog all day, leave it in the back garden, or kennel it. :confused: At the same time, the demand for dogs of nearly all if not all breeds far outstrips what club breeders can provide. And buyers for the most part do not particularly care where their dog came from.

Breeders and clubs in the US in particular also regularly oppose all puppy mill legislation, on the basis that requiring, say, more than 1 kennel attendant per 40-50 dogs is unfair, as are requirements for kennel standards, exercise, inspections etc. These are the show breeders, many of them with well known names. Indeed the most organised, vociferous, well financed lobbyists and campaigners against puppy mill legislation are *national and regional breed clubs and breeders* -- not the puppy millers themselves.

A lot of puppy farms/puppy mills sell off adult dogs in small ads as if they are pets. Happens ALL the time in Ireland where they are listed as 'family pets'.

And at the same time there are some clean kennel environments run both by breeders in clubs and 'puppy farms'.

And is it any better to get a dog from a breeder who doesn't MRI, cardiologist test and follow breeding protocols? Who is raising the risk that dogs will die early/live in pain any worse morally from leaving dogs in mass breeding conditions?

The issue of rescuing breeding dogs from auction, as some cavalier rescues that many here support do, is a very difficult issue. These are typically NOT 'ex' breeding dogs that would otherwise be disposed of, but just cavaliers being put up for sale -- most are bought by other breeders who will continue to farm them. Rescue buys them and it is all the same -- it gives money back to the millers/farmers to invest in fresh stock and thus the cycle continues. One individual dog is saved; another young one goes into mass breeding 'service'. :(

I also strongly believe that there are likely to be dogs worth reintroducing as healthier, more genetically diverse stock from mass breeding situations and from BYBs and non-show breeders. A separate but important issue.

But would I ever go to a puppy farm to buy a dog? No: they are disgusting and buying just one puppy from such people keeps the business going.

But anyone thinking about this issue is naive if they simply have a gut reaction that says 'never'. Anyone concerned about puppy farms/mills/mass breeding needs to deal with what, exactly, they term a mass breeder, puppy farm etc. And if you could ONLY get dogs from small scale breeders, would you be willing to pay what the market would demand -- maybe 5 times what cavaliers currently cost? Most people are not even willing to pay the price of a puppy from a health testing breeder of good repute!!

I have people who have told me I should just give them a rescue cavalier because they were going to give the dog a good home and after all I got the dog for 'free' so they should too and I should be thrilled with the great home they'd offer. I do not see this as too ethically distant from people who argue they are 'saving' puppies that deserve a good home by getting them at lower cost to themselves from a BYB/puppy farm/pet shop sale etc.

And setting all this aside -- please do not just state distaste for puppy farms/mills and leave it at that. Please try to get involved in campaigning to stop them, write politicians, etc. While it is at least something, just signing an online petition sadly makes for little/no change. A single personal letter to a minister, dept secretary, public representative, city mayor etc is far far far more effective and there are campaign groups too. :thmbsup:

There is a lot more to this question than a simple rhetorical 'no' as an answer and it raises difficult and complex dilemmas.