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View Full Version : Free DNA tests not being taken up. Notice from the Cavalier Club website



Margaret C
17th October 2011, 04:45 PM
I am pleased to see the Cavalier Club are trying to get breeders to take up this very generous offer from the AHT.
They are offering 200 free DNA tests for Dry Eye/Curly Coat & Episodic Falling Syndrome but it would seem that club members are reluctant to find out whether their cavaliers are carriers ( even though they can still be bred to non-carriers )

I suppose old attitudes die hard but I am surprised to see this sentence included.................

"Many of you have felt that the statiscal picture for the incidence of CM/SM in our breed is warped by the number of unhealthy Cavaliers submitted."

The notice writer really should have pointed out that belief has no basis in fact, as most of the peer reviewed published studies have been on asymptomatic cavaliers that the breeders themselves have taken to the low cost scans.

The website notice reads...........


CALLING ALL BREEDERS

We are being given the opportunity – and for a change – at no cost to us – to provide ACCURATE statistics for the incidence of Dry Eye/Curly Coat Syndrome and Episodic Falling. As responsible breeders there are no excuses as to why you cannot submit a cheek swab – there are no risks; there is no anaesthetic or sedation. All that willing participants need to do is submit the name of their dog or bitch to Annette Jones (email Club Health Representative (health@thecavalierclub.co.uk) or phone 01490 430554) who is compiling a list. You may think that your Cavalier’s breeding is not unique – JUST PUT THE NAME FORWARD. One Cavalier born after 2005 per breeder – the cost would normally be £48 and this has been waived. (If you require a certificate there is a £10 charge.)

Many of you have felt that the statiscal picture for the incidence of CM/SM in our breed is warped by the number of unhealthy Cavaliers submitted. You have an opportunity to produce an accurate picture. THE INDIVIDUAL RESULTS from this project will be STRICTLY CONFIDENTIAL.

This is important please don’t ignore this request. For full information please read the AHT Study details (http://www.cavaliertalk.com/forums/health/episodic/aht_study.html).

Karlin
17th October 2011, 09:05 PM
I do wonder what Jacques Penderis, the researcher who worked to create this test and who is the leading authority on Episodic Falling and who has tested many many dogs, would think of that bizarre statement that level of affectedness is based only on a mostly symptomatic test sample! :? It certainly seems thoughtless and rude to phrase this particular request in this way on the website -- who else can the people who posted it men but the very researchers at the AHT who have worked for years to give them this test? :sl*p:

I've never actually seen anyone claim any particular rate of incidence for Curly Coat so not sure what they can mean about its incidence being overestimated . While it isn't high, going from reports, it is significant in the breed, and devastating for dog and owners and breeders. Surely breeders would be overjoyed at having a simple test to detect it? Yet so few in the UK have tested their dogs -- seems a much larger takeup from vets seeking a diagnosis and breeders from abroad.

Without testing, breeders won't have any idea of what they are dealing with. Penderis told me that in the large sample of dogs they tested and in dogs he sees, the gene for EFS is very prevalent and much higher than epilepsy.

I do remember it was not so long ago that some breeders and their 'health websites' were stating that rate of SM to be 0.02% in the breed --even on a US national club website -- at a time when researcher estimates were consistently showing at least 30-40% and likely higher. And now it is accepted to be in the realm of 70% by age 6+.

Margaret C
21st October 2011, 07:09 PM
Dogs required for study

The Animal Health Trust (AHT) recently launched a combined DNA test for dry eye and curly coat syndrome and episodic falling in Cavalier King Charles Spaniels. As an additional service to the breed, we intend to estimate the frequency of mutant alleles for both conditions in the UK population. This would involve collecting DNA samples from 200 individual dogs of breeding age, widely selected to be as representative of the population as possible so that the mutant allele frequencies of both of these conditions can be determined with some degree of accuracy. Genotyping will be performed in the AHT laboratory once all 200 samples have been submitted. The standard £48 fee for the combined test will be waived for participating dogs, and owners will not be charged for email notification of their dog's results. A certificate can be sent to owners on request for a £10 fee to cover administrative costs. Individual test results will remain confidential. Once data analysis is complete, a report summarising the overall findings will be sent to you for distribution to the participating breed clubs and other interested parties. The guidelines for selection of participating dogs are as follows: • each of the 200 dogs should have a unique dam • ideally, each dog would also have a unique sire, but as this may be difficult to achieve we ask that no more than four dogs out of the total 200 share any one sire • only one dog can be tested free of charge per owner • dogs must have been born on or after 1st July 2005 • dogs must be registered with the UK Kennel Club To register your interest in participating in this study, please contact Peter Towse, kchealthrep@cavalierhealth.co.uk. Providing the name, date of birth, KC registration number, microchip #, sex, colour, sire and dam of the dog you would like to participate in the study. Then your name, address, telephone and email address. If your dog does test positive, it is NOT a failure, it’s a carrier and can still be bred from. Knowing its status you don't bred to another carrier.








Well done to the Cavalier Health Liaison Committee for following the Cavalier Club's lead and putting this notice on their website.

It will not be eay for the cavalier clubs to find this number of dogs. Club members tend to use a fairly limited number of show bred stud dogs so to find 50 separate sires will not be simple.

This is a study where pet owners may be able to help.

Please note that it does not say you must belong to a cavalier club, only that you have a Kennel Club registered dog that is microchipped and born before July 2005.

Although the DNA tests are designed to help breeders, in this case the free test is being made available so that the researchers can estimate how many cavaliers carry the genes that cause these two inherited conditions, so I imagine you can consider putting your cavalier forward even if it is neutered or spayed.

The free test will just require swabs on sticks being rubbed on the inside of your pet's mouth ( it really is easy, I have done it with Faith )

Forum members in the UK could offer to help make up the numbers of cavaliers required for this study & demonstrate their practical support for research into breed health, so please consider emailing the contact address above if you have a cavalier that is eligible.

Brian M
21st October 2011, 08:52 PM
Hello Margaret

Daisy has just read this and asked me to mail Mr Towse which I shall do
in the morning.


Best Wishes

Daisy and me

sins
21st October 2011, 09:30 PM
And what about Rosie who says she's just as posh as Dangerous Daisy?
Mustn't forget the wholecolours?
If she were mine I would choose that one as possibly the most useful.
What some people are doing is putting forward a number of dogs and letting the coordinators have their choice.
No harm offering the entire quartet?
Sins

Brian M
21st October 2011, 10:03 PM
Hi Sins

After a group discussion it has been passed one for all and so we are all in ,so me being
the carer and handy slave will get all their paper out and send it all off tomorrow ,pity
I am not KC reg being a Murtagh O Brian as you know .:):)

sins
21st October 2011, 10:08 PM
Sounds like that could be IKC reg Bri :badgrin::badgrin:.
Sins

Margaret C
22nd October 2011, 12:19 AM
And what about Rosie who says she's just as posh as Dangerous Daisy?
Mustn't forget the wholecolours?
If she were mine I would choose that one as possibly the most useful.
What some people are doing is putting forward a number of dogs and letting the coordinators have their choice.
No harm offering the entire quartet?
Sins

Great idea. A few more owners like Brian & the problem would be sorted.

What about you Sins? Are you putting your UK girls forward or have both their parents already been checked?

sins
22nd October 2011, 11:20 AM
Hi Margaret,
Holly has already been tested and is clear.Ivy has the same sire as Holly and her dam is clear.
I could offer Ivy I guess..the sire himself has been put forward.The dam has three clear offspring but has a fairly popular sire...on the club website it says one cavalier per breeder born after 2005 so she may be too old to be eligible,but I believe the breeders have offered some of the younger ones.
I know of some breeders with small kennels who have already had all their dogs done and if this random testing doesn't happen reasonably quickly,I think many breeders who are interested will go ahead and test if the dogs are needed for breeding.
Sins

Margaret C
22nd October 2011, 05:56 PM
Hi Margaret,
Holly has already been tested and is clear.Ivy has the same sire as Holly and her dam is clear.
I could offer Ivy I guess..the sire himself has been put forward.The dam has three clear offspring but has a fairly popular sire...on the club website it says one cavalier per breeder born after 2005 so she may be too old to be eligible,but I believe the breeders have offered some of the younger ones.
I know of some breeders with small kennels who have already had all their dogs done and if this random testing doesn't happen reasonably quickly,I think many breeders who are interested will go ahead and test if the dogs are needed for breeding.
Sins

It is wonderful to think that in future there will be no reason for these two distressing conditions to affect any cavaliers that are bought from a well informed cavalier club breeder.

Even if the free tests are delayed, £48 is not too much to pay for a one-off test that will enable a breeder to say with confidence that their puppies will not have DE/CC or EFS.

The obvious solution would be for the KC to be sending information about this test, and the free offer, out with registration papers. That might get the AHT better range of cavaliers from non-show lines as well as show bred dogs and make the results more representative of the whole cavalier population.

Non cavalier club breeders have no way of knowing about recent health testing developments such as these DNA tests or the forthcoming BVA/KC MRI scanning scheme.

Health campaigners have long urged the KC to send out health information with their registration paperwork. The KC make vague promises and say that they are piloting schemes, but it just does not seem to happen.

sins
22nd October 2011, 07:22 PM
Even if the free tests are delayed, £48 is not too much to pay for a one-off test that will enable a breeder to say with confidence that their puppies will not have DE/CC or EFS.

No, it's very good value.
Sadly most cases of DE/CC are not compatible with life, and if testing can potentially avoid the loss of a puppy, then £48 is a very modest amount.

Sins

Brian M
23rd October 2011, 09:36 PM
Hi

All four girls details sent .I wonder if you get a reply and if you are advised about selection or not .
Sins what made you say Rosie might be more use ,you have me baffled but thats not hard.

sins
23rd October 2011, 10:12 PM
Because your Rosie's sire is from a top wholecolour kennel and he hasn't been very widely used at stud.
Chances are that fewer cavaliers with that particular sire would be submitted and therefore be more likely to be useful to meet the criteria of having as many unique sires as possible in the study..if that makes sense?
Poppy's sire is from another top wholecolour kennel and would have nearly sired double the number of litters than Rosies.He has a lot of offspring in the showring at the moment and is more likely to have some of those offspring submitted.
No harm in offering..
Sins

jasperpaw
24th October 2011, 04:38 PM
Margaret and Sinead, do you think it would be worth me submitting Ollie for this, as you know the same Sire as Holly and Ivy but different Breeder for the Dam, (seems from you post Sins that Sire is already being submitted). Is this a swap kit that is sent and you do at home?

Brian M
24th October 2011, 04:58 PM
Hello Pam

After I submitted the girls last night I had a reply this morning asking me to nominate a first
choice out of my four and also asked which club I belong to so they can attribute your dog to a geographical
area and also if my girls are all entire .I answered all the questions and they responded that they have
all been put down for the area of that club .

jasperpaw
24th October 2011, 05:06 PM
Thanks for that Brian, I don`t actually belong to a Cavalier Club, so wonder if it matters.

sins
24th October 2011, 05:28 PM
I wouldn't see the point at this stage.
It seems more logical to allow UK breeders get first option on the testing as the test may be of value in their breeding programmes and they're only allowed to avail of one free test. I presume pet owners who are members of regional clubs would also have been contacted??
Brian though, is in a very unique situation in having four cavaliers sired by four dogs from very well respected kennels with only one being used extensively at stud.
*If* it's proving hard to make the numbers while keeping the diversity,his dogs could be useful.
For me it seems easier for the owners of our dogs' sire to submit him and I know they have two younger sons and daughter of that dog at home also.
For the purpose of the project,the bloodline is well covered.:)
Sins

jasperpaw
24th October 2011, 06:09 PM
Hi Sins, thanks for the explanation, did wonder, but thought it was worth asking if it would have helped. How are Holly and little Ivy doing?

sins
24th October 2011, 06:23 PM
They're good thanks!
Both like Ollie..living life to the max!!
Sins

Brian M
24th October 2011, 09:20 PM
Hello Sins

Just for curiosity can you explain pls as my knowedge of breeding is postage stamp size.

"Brian though, is in a very unique situation in having four cavaliers sired by four dogs from very well respected kennels with only one being used extensively at stud"

I do know about Daisy's pedigree but haven't a clue about the others apart from Lily whose sire was Campanards Tribute To Sorata or Big Red ,Joan Pagans
boy and I believe Joan is not well so my best wishes to her and my thanks for her help and guidance with Lily.And Rosies sire Rabymar Courageous Heart
who seem to have a lot of heart and SM clear dogs in that line .I shall have to do some serious research for my own beneit and peace of mind .And Pops sire Korraines Disco Dancer was placed 2nd in a class in a Nothern Cavalier Club Show in Nov 2005 with a judge by the name of Maraget Carter ,I will have to tell Pops about that naughty lady placing her dad second .

Thanks Sins

sins
24th October 2011, 09:47 PM
In a nutshell Brian,
You have four very well bred young ladies sitting on your sofa in all four colours!:D

Sins

Brian M
24th October 2011, 09:55 PM
Hi Sins

Did you say bred ,behaved or hooligans.

sins
24th October 2011, 10:17 PM
If the AHT ever plan on developing a DNA test for Hooliganism,I have three subjects to put forward :thmbsup:

Sins

jasperpaw
25th October 2011, 07:03 AM
Oh well you had better add my two to the badly behaved hooligans list then.:)

Brian M
7th November 2011, 09:20 AM
Hi

Had an email yesterday asking for my address ,so I presume
somebody has been picked and kits must be in the post .