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Calandra
19th November 2011, 11:57 AM
I found an old thread about the Lepto vaccine from 2006. It seemed back then, a good number of people got this shot for their Cavaliers. My breeder suggested I NOT get it, but at our first vet visit yesterday, the vet said that we should get it and that there's a new formula that came out recently that does not make the toy breeds sick.

My breeder said if we did get it, to wait until Chloe Louise is 6 months old.

Do any of you have reservations about the lepto vaccine, or have your older dogs done fine with it?

I'm now at the point of having to decide whether to trust my breeder, or trust my new vet (who does seem on top of things - but obviously, she isn't a Cavalier expert). :-/

Karlin
19th November 2011, 12:42 PM
The problem is, it isn't really a matter of trust here. :) These are not black and white issues. There is plenty of gray. :thmbsup: For many years, like millions of dog owners, I have had annual lepto vaccines for my dogs and have never had even a minor reaction to them. There is a very tiny percentage of dogs that will have reactions, and this is more common in small breeds. Therefore, it is rightly a consideration when deciding whether to vaccinate. I recently posted an article in which one vet argued that as long as this illness is caught quite early, it can be easily treated as well–and of course the vaccine doesn't cover for all strains.

Set against that, the fact that in some areas there is a far greater problem with this potentially fatal condition–and, the fact that many dog owners will think that their dog just has a minor illness and will not go to see a vet until the dog can no longer recover and dies. I have heard of people with Cavaliers and other breeds that have died from lepto exposure, including in urban areas. We had somebody post here to report a Cavalier that died from lepto picked up off the streets or parks in a city suburb in the US midwest. My own vets say they have seen several cases this year in Dublin.

The issue for every dog owner is to read widely, educate yourself, and then make a decision understanding there are risks on either side. Some people will feel the risk is greater in vaccinating, and some will feel the risk is greater in not vaccinating. I have a hard time making a decision about this particular vaccine myself and I'm not sure what I am going to do from year to year.

Just on a general point– I would never advise accepting as gospel, anything someone's breeder says, nor anything your vet would say–and I don't say that as a criticism, I just say that because it is far too simple to think one person knows every single angle and what these people have are opinions based on their own view of a set of facts. I've seen some utterly bizarre claims on health issues from breeders and I have also seen vets completely miss what to me seemed a pretty obvious diagnosis, later confirmed, and most will push for maximum vaccination as well, which a lot of people would not necessarily feel is right these days. it's important to remember as well that people posting to an Internet forum generally do so without any detailed medical knowledge, so again, coming to a conclusion requires weighing up the expertise of the various people, reading up on the issue from other sources, and coming to a decision that you're comfortable with. Vaccinations and the issues around them are hugely divisive. One person's right approach is another person's wrong approach. For those who don't bother to vaccinate at all for anything–my feeling is they have never probably seen a puppy dying slowly and very painfully from a condition like parvovirus or distemper. Lack of vaccinations across adult dogs means a greater likelihood that vulnerable puppies will be exposed to these usually fatal conditions. But lepto is a "non core" vaccine and doesn;t fall into this consideration.

BTW lepto in dogs can transmit to people and be equally dangerous/potentially fatal.

Calandra
19th November 2011, 12:48 PM
Thanks so much for your reply, Karlin. I feel better knowing that you have gotten this for your Cavaliers without incident. I understand that's no guarantee for every dog, but at least I know it's not necessarily detrimental to every (or even most) Cavaliers that get it - like I initially thought.
The problem is, it isn't really a matter of trust here. These are not black and white issues. There is plenty of gray. :thmsbup: For many years, like millions of dog owners, I have had annual lepto vaccines for my dogs and have never had even a minor reaction to them. There is a very tiny percentage of dogs that will have reactions, and this is more common in small breeds. Therefore, it is rightly a consideration when deciding whether to vaccinate. I recently posted an article in which one vet argued that as long as this illness is caught quite early, it can be easily treated as well–and of course the vaccine doesn't cover for all strains.

Set against that, the fact that in some areas there is a far greater problem with this potentially fatal condition–and, the fact that many dog owners will think that their dog just has a minor illness and will not go to see a vet until the dog can no longer recover and dies. I have heard of people with Cavaliers and other breeds that have died from lepto exposure, including in urban areas. We had somebody post here to report a Cavalier that died from lepto picked up off the streets or parks in a city suburb in the US midwest. My own vets say they have seen several cases this year in Dublin.

The issue for every dog owner is to read widely, educate yourself, and then make a decision understanding there are risks on either side. Some people will feel the risk is greater in vaccinating, and some will feel the risk is greater in not vaccinating. I have a hard time making a decision about this particular vaccine myself and I'm not sure what I am going to do from year to year.

Just on a general point– I would never advise accepting as gospel, anything someone's breeder says, nor anything your vet would say–and I don't say that as a criticism, I just say that because it is far too simple to think one person knows every single angle and what these people have are opinions based on their own view of a set of facts. I've seen some utterly bizarre claims on health issues from breeders and I have also seen vets completely miss what to me seemed a pretty obvious diagnosis, later confirmed, and most will push for maximum vaccination as well, which a lot of people would not necessarily feel is right these days. it's important to remember as well that people posting to an Internet forum generally do so without any detailed medical knowledge, so again, coming to a conclusion requires weighing up the expertise of the various people, reading up on the issue from other sources, and coming to a decision that you're comfortable with. Vaccinations and the issues around them are hugely divisive. One person's right approach is another person's wrong approach. For those who don't bother to vaccinate at all for anything–my feeling is they have never probably seen a puppy dying slowly and very painfully from a condition like parvovirus or distemper. Lack of vaccinations across adult dogs means a greater likelihood that vulnerable puppies will be exposed to these usually fatal conditions. But lepto is a "non core" vaccine and doesn;t fall into this consideration.

BTW lepto in dogs can transmit to people and be equally dangerous/potentially fatal.

Karlin
19th November 2011, 01:07 PM
I've given lepto as well to literally a couple of hundred rescue cavaliers -- never had a reaction. But you do see reports of people's dogs that at times have had serious reactions with it. I am not sure about the experience of anyone here who might have had a bad reaction with it and want to post?

If you didn't catch the thread I posted in the health & diet forum recently on lepto be sure to have a read as it is good on the anti-vaccination angle.

There are a couple of breeders whose opinions I really respect, who have pointed out that in most areas, in a given year you might be talking about a couple of cases amongst millions of dogs in a region. Therefore, it becomes an issue of whether to give an unnecessary vaccine given that the chances are so tiny. On the other hand, some people would argue that the reason there are so few cases is because most dogs get the vaccination… I do think that with this particular vaccine, people have to come to a decision they feel most comfortable with, with risk on either side.

I hadn't heard that there was a new version that was considered safer for small dogs though–thanks for highlighting this and if anyone has anymore information, maybe they can add it to the thread.

Nalu
22nd November 2011, 05:07 AM
Nalu had a bad reaction recently so I talked with a different vet, and he doesn't give the vaccine to small dogs. In spite of the rural nature of this area he's only come across 2 cases in all the years he's practiced and they were big dogs. Exposure to stagnant pond water is high risk, so maybe hunting dogs are more at risk.

lucidity
22nd November 2011, 08:02 AM
I know that many people recommend giving the lepto vaccine only after age 1, especially for small/toy breeds. It's not a core vaccine in Canada, so Cadence wasn't vaccinated for it until I had to move out of the country. It was a requirement for the entry country to have lepto shots, so at around 14 months old Cadence had his first lepto shot. Thankfully nothing went wrong, as I know someone whose Papillon died of a bad reaction to lepto.

Here in Malaysia, lepto is part of the core vaccine so Lyra got all 3 in her puppy shots. I'm contemplating skipping it on her 1st year vaccine and then never giving it to her again.

ashleighelizabeth
22nd November 2011, 06:16 PM
Thanks for starting this thread and all of the helpful information! I have been debating the Lepto vaccine too. I at first was 100 % not getting it because that it what our breeder had told us, but my vet highly recommends it for our area and said that he had a two dogs die of Lepto last year in the area. So scary. :( I'm still trying to figure it out and might get it for Sonny when he gets a little older and we are taking him camping and places where there are ponds and lakes.

Calandra
25th November 2011, 09:28 PM
I'll be sure to post more info. about the "new" lepto vaccine my vet was talking about when I get more info. on it. If I do get it, I won't two it until Chloe is at least 6 months old.


I've given lepto as well to literally a couple of hundred rescue cavaliers -- never had a reaction. But you do see reports of people's dogs that at times have had serious reactions with it. I am not sure about the experience of anyone here who might have had a bad reaction with it and want to post?

If you didn't catch the thread I posted in the health & diet forum recently on lepto be sure to have a read as it is good on the anti-vaccination angle.

There are a couple of breeders whose opinions I really respect, who have pointed out that in most areas, in a given year you might be talking about a couple of cases amongst millions of dogs in a region. Therefore, it becomes an issue of whether to give an unnecessary vaccine given that the chances are so tiny. On the other hand, some people would argue that the reason there are so few cases is because most dogs get the vaccination… I do think that with this particular vaccine, people have to come to a decision they feel most comfortable with, with risk on either side.

I hadn't heard that there was a new version that was considered safer for small dogs though–thanks for highlighting this and if anyone has anymore information, maybe they can add it to the thread.