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View Full Version : Jealousy/Ignoring



Kgypsey
1st February 2012, 04:39 PM
We are having an absloute nightmare with our pup TK at the moment, he is very strong willed, completley different to Charlie (our 3yr old cavvy) and just really rules the roost with him, he absoloutly ignores EVERYTHING we say or do to or with him, he barks constantly, in or out of his cage, takes all Charlies toys off him, will growl at Charlie if he has a toy or if Charlie is chewing a toy will stand and bark at him none stop or try to bite his eyes (obviously we stop this behaviour by removing TK), this means that we cannot have toys out for the boys as they just fight over them (well TK does, Charlie will just let him tae them off him).
We are semi detached and our neighbours have complained to the council (we own our home) about noise nuisance from TK, if he wants out of his bed he barks (shouts at us) none stop, he wont stop (we have tried ignoring him), we have tried placing him in another room, he just barks all the time, we hve tried a water mist, he ignores it, we hve used stern commands and still do, we remove him from whatever situation is happening and put him on 'time out' as out vet suggested, none of it makes a blind bit of difference, he will just continue to shout at us and then when finally let back into the room will go straght back to either barking at Charlie, stealing whatever it was he wanted. He is taken out on long walks twice a day, i am home all day with the boys, i play constantly with them, but TK doesnt like it if Charlie is being stroked so it makes it difficult to give them both my attention.

I just dont know what else to do, I thought cavvys were supposed to get along well, Charlie is so placid that he will not stick up for himself, I adore TK but we cant carry on like this. Any advice please!

apwerner
2nd February 2012, 07:37 AM
I am by no means an expert, but we had a tiny bit of an issue with Forrest showing dominance traits when be was younger. Have you tried any of the techniques to make them know you're in charge? I don't know how much of this was puppy behavior or actual showings of dominance, but Forrest would bite quite a bit and sleep on top of our heads and was very defensive of me and mean to my boyfriend. This is silly, but it was almost like he thought I was his girlfriend and if Tony tried to kiss me Forrest was so angry. He also humped everything. So, we tried the technique where you sit on the ground and pick the dog up from his belly (right behind front legs) and hold them eye level with you do a deep growl in your throat and never lose eye contact. Forrest used to stare us down, but eventually he would look away and not want to keep looking us in the eye. We didn't do this too often, but certainly whenever he was really bad. Even if you don't do the growl or picking them up, the eye contact thing worked wonders. Never be first to look away. After a month or so he didn't show a single one of the dominance signs and is an absolute delight. Again, I'm not an expert, but that's what worked for us. Make sure they know you make the rules.

Kgypsey
2nd February 2012, 07:45 AM
Def worth a go, right now i will give anything a try! I think we had such a easy time with Charlie that TK has been a shock to the system, just did not expect such possesive dominant behaviour and to be honest the first time he tried it on I expected Charlie to put him in his place and he didnt, which I think then just added fuel to TK's fire as he then realised that he could pretty much get away with anything with Charlie. Thanks so much for replying x

Sabby
2nd February 2012, 10:34 AM
I am no expert either, but in all my puppy & obedience training you teach the puppy/dog the look at me command. You want your dog have eye contact with you all the time when training. So I would think teaching the dog to be scared to look at you isnít a good thing either.

How old is your dog? Has it been to puppy training socialisation classes? Also you need 1 to 1 time with you puppy without your other dog being involved.

Soushiruiuma
2nd February 2012, 01:00 PM
I would get him to a dog park for some quality time with other dogs, and exercise. We have a special side of our park that is only for small dogs, it's great because I don't have to worry about a big dog grabbing or trampling my babies.

In my opinion, tired puppies are happy, well-behaved puppies, and 2 walks a day just isn't getting him enough exercise. You might also consider doggy daycare a few days a week.

Regardless, getting into a training class with a good trainer will do you tremendous good. They will work with you on getting him to focus on you, on helping you communicate with him, and getting him to understand what's expected. It is money well spent, just make sure you have a good trainer, certifications are usually APDT, and CPDT.

I would definitely not be growling at him.

Kgypsey
2nd February 2012, 05:08 PM
Definaty food for thought. he is really not afraid of us, that is almost part of the problem, i guess the fact that he see's us as no threat to hi dominance. We go to puppy/dog training already, have been doing since he was vaccinated, it has made no difference whatsoever, his behviour there, is so different. There is is timid, shy, scared, he refuses to get out of my arms etc, is afraid of every dog/person nd everyone i try to discuss the issues i have with him at home look at me like i am mad! He refuses to socialise with other dogs, will not meet them, he is happy with Charlie and that is it, he does not growl or anything like that, just wont go near them. Then the minute we get throught the front door at home, it's like a switch it turned, he is shouty, demanding, possessive, jealous, dominant etc he really is a gob.
I have epilepsy so whilst he does only get 2 walks a day, they are long walks, he is off lead the entire time, so running around and they are both knackered after, I have to be careful about where i go on my own in case of a fit, and i cannot drive anywhere, I thought that I was doing pretty good. He is 6mths old and Charlie is nearly 3yrs.

Soushiruiuma
2nd February 2012, 07:07 PM
He sounds just like a spoiled child.

Do not hold him when he is at class. That's ridiculous, he isn't in any danger.

Off lead walks should be sufficient, it gives enough opportunity for him to really burn energy.

What kind of trainer are you working with? Is it a local pet shop-type class? Or a truly experienced trainer? There are trainers who can come to your home, and work on problem behaviors individually (like barking).

Are you practicing his training at home? When he starts doing an undesirable behavior (barking, stealing, etc), take him aside and have him do all of his commands in a combination "sit, down, stay, come, sit, leave it, ok, sit, down, sit" or something like that. Work on his speed, making it fast-paced and unpredictable for him, so he really has to focus.

The other method I've heard of for discouraging bad behavior is to put some coins in a tin can and seal it. When he starts barking, you shake the can. The rattling is unpleasant, and if he learns that barking means you'll make that awful noise, hopefully he'll stop doing it.

lindylou
3rd February 2012, 04:04 PM
hi
try an anti bark collar ive just seen it on the internet it may help

Sabby
3rd February 2012, 06:38 PM
hi
try an anti bark collar ive just seen it on the internet it may help

Sorry but anti barking collars are cruel and should be banned. Especially the shock ones. Also with the spray ones if you don't get the timing right you just confuse the dog of what you want from it.

ashleighelizabeth
5th February 2012, 02:24 AM
I have epilepsy so whilst he does only get 2 walks a day, they are long walks, he is off lead the entire time, so running around and they are both knackered after, I have to be careful about where i go on my own in case of a fit, and i cannot drive anywhere, I thought that I was doing pretty good. He is 6mths old and Charlie is nearly 3yrs.

Your pups are lucky to have you to take them on those nice walks off leash. It sounds like you are doing a great job of getting them exercise. :) I wish I had advice about the other stuff, but I am a first time dog owner and my little guy is still a puppy, so I don't have much experience. I definitely agree that practicing the commands at home is key. Also time outs really worked for us with Sonny. We would put him on time out for about a minute when he was chasing our cat or playing too rough with the cat. It was pretty tiring in the beginning because we were constantly giving him time outs, but pretty soon he caught on "If I chase the cat, I go on a time out" and now he very rarely gets a time out. b*n*n*

Mindysmom
5th February 2012, 03:16 PM
My little Rylie was also a going concern as a pup. For the most part I let the dogs work things out themselves. Max is very patient with him and one might think that Rylie is the dominant one but if Max doesn't feel like giving up his toy he will tell Rylie in no uncertain terms and that's that. They actually have a very interesting dynamic and they have worked it out themselves. If Max has something Rylie wants Rylie won't try and take it away anymore but will lick Max's face and mouth - it appears that he is trying to pester Max into giving up his treasure - sometimes he does - sometimes he doesn't lol. Rylie is a yeller also. He is also very smart though and learned pretty quickly that he does not get what he wants by yelling at me (not that he doesn't still try from time to time) Both of his balls got put away yesterday because he dropped them on my lapped and yelled for me to throw them when I was doing something else. I wouldn't be harsh with him but consistency is the key. At puppy class Rylie would have preferred to stay on my lap as well. I had to stand up during "play time". Don't let him be the boss. As long as the environment is safe put him down. As he got a bit older he became too friendly with other dogs and ended up getting put in his place a time or two. Now he has a healthy caution around big dogs and does not care for big puppies (who might want to use him as a toy) at all. I have a wonderful trainer who probably got me on the right track with Rylie because as a pup he would pretend he had "forgotten" something he'd been taught so I'd make it easier for him. I still remember in class one night when I thought he had forgotten the "down" command (in my defence he was still pretty young). My trainer was convinced he hadn't. She took him from me - stood on his leash so he had room to stand up - turn around etc. but not leave. She told him "down" once. He didn't do anything - she turned away and didn't acknowledge him at all (I would have repeated the command). Finally after about a minute or two he went down and she rewarded him lavishly. He gave her the dirtiest look I have ever seen from a Cavalier though. My trainer said he was calling her rude names lol! She only did that because she had seen him perform well for weeks and knew that he knew the command. She said he was training me and she was absolutely right. That was an aha moment for me in my dog training. Rylie could have easily been labelled a naughty dog (and he still does naughty things) but he is absolutely awesome and just oozes personality. He has only been trained with positive methods and I don't speak to him sternly or raise my voice. I'm not sure what to suggest about the barking. Both of my dogs bark more than Mindy ever did but they don't bark constantly by any stretch of imagination. Is he quiet long enough that you can reward him for being quiet? I'm of the opinion that punishment doesn't really work as well as rewarding good behaviour. I think it is important to make sure that both dogs have individual time with you.

Karlin
5th February 2012, 04:46 PM
I would get him to a dog park for some quality time with other dogs, and exercise. We have a special side of our park that is only for small dogs, it's great because I don't have to worry about a big dog grabbing or trampling my babies.

In my opinion, tired puppies are happy, well-behaved puppies, and 2 walks a day just isn't getting him enough exercise. You might also consider doggy daycare a few days a week.

Regardless, getting into a training class with a good trainer will do you tremendous good. They will work with you on getting him to focus on you, on helping you communicate with him, and getting him to understand what's expected. It is money well spent, just make sure you have a good trainer, certifications are usually APDT, and CPDT.

I would definitely not be growling at him.

Agree with this -- issue is probably in part that just a walk is not too much activity/interactio -- not like daily at home training, a kong toy to keep him busy, and so on. Thinking is harder than playing and an important complement to walks. He is shy at classes because he isn;t getting enough interaction with other dogs/people except the ones at home and is working out all his energy there. Lack of socialisation can cause difficulties including fear aggression and frustratingly -- more barking -- so really important to get him into class with a good trainer who knows classes are about more than getting a dog to sit/down etc -- and make sure he gets regular socialising with other pups/dogs of different sizes, in safe environments.

Please, please, also try as best you can to not go off on the very wrong, long disproven track of labelling *absolutely normal puppy behaviour* :D as 'dominance' :( -- this is not dominance (and dominance is so badly understood -- it really has nothing at all to do with what we assume is 'dominance' and should be thrown out of popular training vocabulary -- more dogs have been seriously managed due to people using problematical and damaging 'dominance' training tha probably any other single approach to dogs -- it routinely causes fear aggression. See my links pinned in the training section on this. :) Also anything written by Dr Ian Dunbar on this -- just google his name and 'dominance'). :thmbsup: Have your training classes taken the dominance approach? Have you talked to the trainer about the 'at home' issue? A good trainer would not be letting a shy puppy sit on a lap/be held -- he needs socialising/interaction.

Also he is just 6 months old -- you need expectations in line with his age. He's just a young kid in dog terms and also -- getting to the age where hormones kick in and he will be even more distracted. Neutering when he is slightly older will help but you do have some things to consider longer term as noted below.

Basically you have a lively active *normal* puppy and he plays with your older dog in an absolutely normal way (older dogs often play in this relaxed way and do not want to 'stick up for themselves' -- but if Charlie is endlessly under pressure just separate them and let him have some quiet time :) ). BTW around 6 months, pups lose what Ian Dunbar calls their 'puppy license' and older dogs will do the job of scolding too rowdy behaviour IF they feel it is warranted -- just let them alone in such cases, it helps a puppy much better to learn from other dogs than intervening humans who do not speak 'canine'!). The pup just has not had enough training to know what to do -- he needs daily fun constructive practice :D, and he should never have to be afraid /fear you! That isn't the basis of a good relationship at all or good training :(). instead he probably needs more activity. And some puppies are just more vocal than others!

On a serious note that you will have to keep in mind: This may end up being a issue for you if people are complaining -- it really can be virtually impossible to train a barker not to bark, especially when you are not there. Punishment will NOT help this situation. Also if you have a really active dog that you are not sure you can manage due to health issues or just generally (he sounds like he may well have a far more demanding personality than Charlie -- I have one like this and this will NOT change. Such dogs need activities like agility/tracking/daily dog games etc or get very frustrated)... to be honest it may mean this is a dog that needs a different home, as difficult as that is to think about. And dogs bark -- some more, some less. It is how they communicate. Just like some kids are noisy, some are quiet children. Did you talk to the breeder about wanting a quiet low key puppy? Good breeders can help owners get the pup most likely to fit the bill -- the active friendly puppy 'that chose me' is typically the worst choice for people who want a quieter dog as the lively one is going to be the most active and pushy and most in need of lots of exercise, interaction and busy-work!

In summary: there are some things you can definitely work on, and some that are probably his personality, more exuberant, lively, active and barky than your current dog. Outcome depends on how much focused time he gets from owners, and also how much commitment there is to work with a dog of this personality, which is likely going to be more challenging to you full stop (and if neighbours have complained than your options may be limited to rehoming or moving).

But FIRST: I would follow the quoted advice above. Get into a training class with an APDT or CPDT trainer in the UK (the association websites list local trainers in US and UK). And download Ian Dunbar's FREE book After You Get Your Puppy to feel more confident about managing your pup and learn more about normal behaviour and how to train: www.dogstardaily.com/free-downloads. If you have a trainer that tells you you need to 'demote' your puppy, that he is 'dominant', etc then get a different trainer.

CharliesMummy
28th February 2012, 12:39 AM
i got charlie at 8weeks old as a companion for my 4year old pug.. they have happily been getting along , charlie trying to play etc... lately charlie has been a little bit protective over his food and toys ... so i just take it off him and put him in a seperate room for time out ... also when i pick the pug up for a cuddle charlie jumps up and barks for jealousy ... so were just ignoring him because he needs to learn i guess...

i hope your situation gets sorted soon!!!! :)x