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Cavaliers -Are They Brave Stoical Little Dogs or Are They Really Babies
- Thread starter Brian M
- Start date
BrooklynMom
Well-known member
Oh both for sure! When Brooky got the paralysis tick a few weeks back and was in hospital, she was SO stoic. Even all the night vets commented on it and she never whined.
BUT, there are other occasions when she is a little sook and acts every bit of her 1 year and 4 months, ha. But with pain or hardship...I say stoic.
BUT, there are other occasions when she is a little sook and acts every bit of her 1 year and 4 months, ha. But with pain or hardship...I say stoic.
Soushiruiuma
Well-known member
Yep, they handle pain admirably; but inconvenience will bring out the baby in them.
The time I gave Guinness a black eye he was so tough. But if thistle wants to go through a closed door, the horror!
The time I gave Guinness a black eye he was so tough. But if thistle wants to go through a closed door, the horror!
lucidity
Well-known member
Lyra has a MUCH higher tolerance of pain than Cadence does! He cries like a baby when the vet gives him shots (even though I tell them to use the smallest needle they have). She is also never afraid of loud noises like firecrackers and thunder (Cadence shivers non stop when he hears these).
I also step or trip over her a LOT because she likes to walk right beside/behind/in front of me, but she never ever yelps!!
I also step or trip over her a LOT because she likes to walk right beside/behind/in front of me, but she never ever yelps!!
apwerner
Well-known member
Forrest is such a little weenie 
He doesn't handle pain well, but he does handle not getting his way well. He is incredibly patient with us. So so patient and respectful it sometimes breaks my heart. If he wants to play catch and I'm doing work he just sits at my feet with the ball in front of him and looks at me. I think he would probably do it for an hour if we ever let him. No whining, no jumping, just sits and stares and waits for me. It's so sweet, but makes me feel so bad sometimes when it comes to pain, we've been told by the vet that he is such a baby! He hasn't been micro chipped yet, because he was so traumatized by his early shots the vet wanted to wait. So, I guess emotionally he is stoic, but physically a big baby
He doesn't handle pain well, but he does handle not getting his way well. He is incredibly patient with us. So so patient and respectful it sometimes breaks my heart. If he wants to play catch and I'm doing work he just sits at my feet with the ball in front of him and looks at me. I think he would probably do it for an hour if we ever let him. No whining, no jumping, just sits and stares and waits for me. It's so sweet, but makes me feel so bad sometimes when it comes to pain, we've been told by the vet that he is such a baby! He hasn't been micro chipped yet, because he was so traumatized by his early shots the vet wanted to wait. So, I guess emotionally he is stoic, but physically a big baby 
Although you have to keep in mind that a human stepping on a cavalier paw is the equivalent of about 500 lbs landing on our own foot. Think of our weight in relation to theirs.
As has been noted here a couple of times (Nicki posted again on this recently) there is a research paper that notes cavaliers have a much higher level of seratonin than normal. That's a 'happy' chemical that counters pain. Some neurologists feel this may well account for the fact that many cavaliers do not show as many outward symptoms of painful conditions like SM and MVD as other breeds would -- and also why pain has to be pretty severe for them to show outward signs. I have heard it suggested by researchers than the chemical could be linked to MVD -- eg a factor causing it or linked to a higher disposition to it. Perhaps the breed has a higher level because it has been bred to wag its tail all the time, even when just walking?
Most dogs of any breed that act babylike do so because owners encourage and reward that behaviour, often without realising it. We already breed for many babylike features in dogs -- infant-like big eyes, flatter more human faces, smiley faces etc. We expect many breeds that look babyish to act that way too -- or fuss over them in a way that sends the dog the signal that acting more "babyish" gets more attention. Any dog is more than smart enough to realise certain kinds of behaviour will get attention/rewards.
No breed is "babyish" as a breed personality -- any trainer will confirm that! (was just talking to some trainer friends last week about how some of the most exasperating owners seem always to be people who have bichons and constantly baby them and think they are incapable of using their sweet little heads to think -- when the dogs could do all kinds of things if the owners stopped inhibiting them from being *dogs* and participating like normal canines in class! Having been in a class next to one such owner in an Ian Dunbar seminar, I could only agree. She kept offering excuses about her dog -- who -- surprise! -- did anything for Dunbar). So yes -- people can encourage dogs to be that way.
As has been noted here a couple of times (Nicki posted again on this recently) there is a research paper that notes cavaliers have a much higher level of seratonin than normal. That's a 'happy' chemical that counters pain. Some neurologists feel this may well account for the fact that many cavaliers do not show as many outward symptoms of painful conditions like SM and MVD as other breeds would -- and also why pain has to be pretty severe for them to show outward signs. I have heard it suggested by researchers than the chemical could be linked to MVD -- eg a factor causing it or linked to a higher disposition to it. Perhaps the breed has a higher level because it has been bred to wag its tail all the time, even when just walking?
Most dogs of any breed that act babylike do so because owners encourage and reward that behaviour, often without realising it. We already breed for many babylike features in dogs -- infant-like big eyes, flatter more human faces, smiley faces etc. We expect many breeds that look babyish to act that way too -- or fuss over them in a way that sends the dog the signal that acting more "babyish" gets more attention. Any dog is more than smart enough to realise certain kinds of behaviour will get attention/rewards.
No breed is "babyish" as a breed personality -- any trainer will confirm that! (was just talking to some trainer friends last week about how some of the most exasperating owners seem always to be people who have bichons and constantly baby them and think they are incapable of using their sweet little heads to think -- when the dogs could do all kinds of things if the owners stopped inhibiting them from being *dogs* and participating like normal canines in class! Having been in a class next to one such owner in an Ian Dunbar seminar, I could only agree. She kept offering excuses about her dog -- who -- surprise! -- did anything for Dunbar
). So yes -- people can encourage dogs to be that way.
Sorry but I find that pathetic. I left one vet who expressed a similar opinion.
Every neurologist I have spoken to has said they think there is a direct correlation to the fact that nearly every cavalier has CM and 70% eventually have a syrinx, and jabbing a needle into exactly the most sensitive area a needle could go with this condition. That just might be why this one breed cries out when it gets injections. I have heard a lot of vets say this. Having seen cavaliers tolerate excessive levels of pain, does anyone really think a slight needle jab would cause problems for the breed for no reason? :sl*p: If a vet thinks this they shouldn't be practising IMHO.
That is why so many neurologist recommend NEVER giving cavaliers injections into the neck!!
All mine have had injections in their thighs for years. Not ONE has ever "cried like a baby".
Go figure.
The only time I have had one cry out (and remember this is for five cavaliers over many years!) was once when a vet gave Leo an injection along his spine before I could stop them. Leo has SM.
I think your vet needs some better education about cavaliers.
Alana
Well-known member
Sorry but I find that pathetic. I left one vet who expressed a similar opinion.
Every neurologist I have spoken to has said they think there is a direct correlation to the fact that nearly every cavalier has CM and 70% eventually have a syrinx, and jabbing a needle into exactly the most sensitive area a needle could go with this condition. That just might be why this one breed cries out when it gets injections. I have heard a lot of vets say this. Having seen cavaliers tolerate excessive levels of pain, does anyone really think a slight needle jab would cause problems for the breed for no reason? :sl*p: If a vet thinks this they shouldn't be practising IMHO.
That is why so many neurologist recommend NEVER giving cavaliers injections into the neck!!
All mine have had injections in their thighs for years. Not ONE has ever "cried like a baby".
Go figure.
The only time I have had one cry out (and remember this is for five cavaliers over many years!) was once when a vet gave Leo an injection along his spine before I could stop them. Leo has SM.
I think your vet needs some better education about cavaliers.
It's strange because my vet said that cavaliers are the narkiest ones at the vet...except my one seemed really fine with it all. Idiot.
Desrae
Well-known member
As a previous poster mentioned, they do indeed have a high tolerance for pain.... but when 'inconvenienced', they let you know!! lol
My two are good examples, I can sense when they are truly unwell, such as a couple months ago, Belle needed her anal glands cleared and she was out of sorts, she just wanted to lie down and not be bothered, I knew something was wrong. But when Belle wants a her favourite blanket spread out on the sofa, she's groans until you do it.
I believe that dogs really are stoic by nature. In addition, they can't talk and say "I'm sick, my head hurts" etc.
Some people, such as the aforementioned vets, in general suffer from 'foot in mouth' syndrome, they just have to say silly things about animals. Go figure.
My two are good examples, I can sense when they are truly unwell, such as a couple months ago, Belle needed her anal glands cleared and she was out of sorts, she just wanted to lie down and not be bothered, I knew something was wrong. But when Belle wants a her favourite blanket spread out on the sofa, she's groans until you do it.
I believe that dogs really are stoic by nature. In addition, they can't talk and say "I'm sick, my head hurts" etc.
Some people, such as the aforementioned vets, in general suffer from 'foot in mouth' syndrome, they just have to say silly things about animals. Go figure.
Kate H
Well-known member
In human terms, being brave or stoical is a conscious decision, and I don't think dogs' minds work like that. They don't think 'Oh, I've got a splitting headache, but I don't want to upset my owner so I'll behave as if I'm OK.' Apart from the seratonin effect, I think Oliver is just so interested in what's going on around him when we're out walking that he's simply not conscious of pain - just as humans can forget a headache when they get absorbed in some activity. Oliver is much more likely to show pain when he's resting and has nothing to distract him.
Oliver's enjoyment in walking does mean I have to think for him - left to himself he will happily scramble over rocks and run up high dunes, or go down a steep bank into a stream and then have to scramble up again, and these sort of activities could both damage his spine and bring pain to the forefront of his mind (and he sometimes gets stuck!).
Kate, Oliver and Aled
PS All my Cavaliers have loved going to the vets, even when they have to have skin scrapings, injections, thermometers stuck up their backsides...
Oliver's enjoyment in walking does mean I have to think for him - left to himself he will happily scramble over rocks and run up high dunes, or go down a steep bank into a stream and then have to scramble up again, and these sort of activities could both damage his spine and bring pain to the forefront of his mind (and he sometimes gets stuck!).
Kate, Oliver and Aled
PS All my Cavaliers have loved going to the vets, even when they have to have skin scrapings, injections, thermometers stuck up their backsides...
Sabby
Well-known member
From when Harley was a pup and he got his jabs he screamed the place down, I never heard a dog scream like that, even the receptionist was worried. When he was a bit older he had to have a jab for something and the same thing happened again. By the time he had his booster I knew a lot more about SM and ask the vet to inject him in his shoulder. And not a sound. From then the fear of him having SM creped in and unfortunately I was right. My girls never make a sound, but now I never have them injected in the neck anyway.
jasperpaw
Well-known member
When Jasper was a pup, I think it was when he had his second injection he squealed, but has never done it since and he has had a few injections in his time, he hates the vets, he will tremble a bit and you can just tell he hates it there, but is so brave, Ollie on the other hand is so laid back about the vets, we took them both together last year for their yearly check up and injections, Ollie just did`nt seem to care and while Jasper was having his check up Ollie just laid down relaxing on the consultation room floor, I must say that Ollie has never had anything bad happen to him yet so that could all change.
Kim N
Well-known member
Well, I felt like such an idiot when I took Oliver for his first jabs. The vet was asking me questions and we were talking and she stuck it in his neck before I even realized what she was doing. When I said to her that I was going to have her do it in his thigh she asked me why. I said because I have been told it is better for Cavaliers to have it done that way due to their SM problems. She rolled her eyes and said that the shot being put into their skin in that area would in no way affect what might be going on with CM or the spine but if that's what I wanted she would be happy to do it that way next time. Oliver was screeching the whole time after the jab during that conversation. She said he was definitely NOT a brave boy! I have never had a dog look so uncomfortable after a jab before. I had her put it in his chart that he was to have it in his thigh from now on. I do hope he isn't as uncomfortable next time.
When I said to her that I was going to have her do it in his thigh she asked me why. I said because I have been told it is better for Cavaliers to have it done that way due to their SM problems. She rolled her eyes and said that the shot being put into their skin in that area would in no way affect what might be going on with CM or the spine but if that's what I wanted she would be happy to do it that way next time. Oliver was screeching the whole time after the jab during that conversation. She said he was definitely NOT a brave boy! I have never had a dog look so uncomfortable after a jab before. I had her put it in his chart that he was to have it in his thigh from now on. I do hope he isn't as uncomfortable next time.
I'd get a new vet, Kim. I won't tolerate anyone being that dismissive about any concerns on any issue -- or so rude as to roll their eyes about a concern (much less when they are wrong...). The *specialists* who know this condition who have made the suggestion, not the *vets* who get almost no training on neurological problems and who misdiagnose SM all the time -- leaving dogs to suffer sometimes for years -- because they are sure their problems must be allergies and disk disease. If a dog isn't responding to treatment for either of those, too many seem incapable of putting two and two together and checking for a neurological issue.
And she is very very wrong that injecting in the neck areA wouldn't have anything to do with what a dog might feel if it had CM or SM-- what an ridiculous comment (at best proving she has read nothing on this condition and doesn't understand anything at all about it). That is where dogs with this condition are most likely to be sensitive and where an owner or decent vet is most likely to first notice sensitivity and see a red flag. :sl*p:
My own vets have been so on top of SM since I first approached them with concerns 7 years ago (excepting one in the practice, who I don't go to). They are now very good at spotting probable signs on vet visits even when owners see nothing, and my own vet was central to getting the researcher Jacques Penderis to speak at the last national vet conference in Ireland. I was just in this morning to see him regarding on of my cats (possible thyroid problem) and he mentioned how he'd just started one cavalier client on Lyrica and what a major improvement it had made. They stay on top of the research and medications. I also dropped a vet I used to use for rescue for being dismissive about SM.
And she is very very wrong that injecting in the neck areA wouldn't have anything to do with what a dog might feel if it had CM or SM-- what an ridiculous comment (at best proving she has read nothing on this condition and doesn't understand anything at all about it). That is where dogs with this condition are most likely to be sensitive and where an owner or decent vet is most likely to first notice sensitivity and see a red flag. :sl*p:
My own vets have been so on top of SM since I first approached them with concerns 7 years ago (excepting one in the practice, who I don't go to). They are now very good at spotting probable signs on vet visits even when owners see nothing, and my own vet was central to getting the researcher Jacques Penderis to speak at the last national vet conference in Ireland. I was just in this morning to see him regarding on of my cats (possible thyroid problem) and he mentioned how he'd just started one cavalier client on Lyrica and what a major improvement it had made. They stay on top of the research and medications.
I also dropped a vet I used to use for rescue for being dismissive about SM.
Brian M
Well-known member
Hi
Thanks for all the replies ,I always find all your answers so interesting. Kim I fully agree with you when my girls had their
boosters ,which we dont do now ,I always asked for the injections in the thigh but always got a comment and a funny look
from them and then they would ask as to why , as of course Vets know best don't they .????/
Thanks for all the replies ,I always find all your answers so interesting. Kim I fully agree with you when my girls had their
boosters ,which we dont do now ,I always asked for the injections in the thigh but always got a comment and a funny look
from them and then they would ask as to why , as of course Vets know best don't they .????/
:lol: Yes, same with Leo on both fronts.
He has been so tolerant and calm when having a horrible looking ruptured anal gland cleaned, yet at times will whimper if you simply touch him very gently on the side if he is having a bad SM day.
The next day he won't be sensitive at all. The symptoms can really come and go. I have to keep reminding my partner that Leo has to be handled very gently as some days he can be so easily hurt.
Sandrac
Well-known member
Before I knew Minnie had SM she really cried everytime she had injections. Since being diagnosed I insist they are given into her thigh - low and behold she doesn't utter a sound.